← Daring Forever (Find your Extraordinary)
Daring Forever (Find your Extraordinary)
Optimism as a strategy for creativity without limits - Talia Cotton
00:51:18
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- [00:01]
Radi Malinich
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- [00:50]
Talia Cotton
I'm the eternal optimist. It's terrible, but I always think that no matter what the thing is possible, it just goes back to how much you want it. And if you want it hard enough, you will figure out the right strategy. Or how much you want it and how smart you are about getting it. You'll figure out the right strategy, you'll get the right talent. If you don't know the answer, you'll hire someone or you'll ask somebody. But if you really, really want something, there is nothing that will get in your way to have that. And that's the strategic side of things.
- [01:26]
Radi Malinich
Welcome to Mindful Creative Podcast, a show about understanding how to deal with the highs and lows of creative lives. My name is Radi Malinich and creativity changed my life, but it also nearly killed me. In this season, inspired by my book of the same title, I am talking to some of the most celebrated figures in the creative industry. In our candid conversations, my guests share their experiences and how they overcame their challenges and struggles, how they learn to grow as creatives. A creative career in the 21st century can be overwhelming. I wanted to capture these honest and transparent conversations that might help you find that guiding light in your career. So thank you for joining me on this episode and taking the first or next step towards regaining control of your creative life. You ready? Today I'm talking to Talia Cotton, who's an internationally recognized designer, coder and creative director known for pioneering the integration of technology and graphic design. She's the founder of Cotton, an award winning design and technology studio based in New York City. In that conversation, she shares her journey from growing up in a musical household to talking about her year teaching English in Italy, overcoming a life threatening accident and how her musical background influenced her approach to design and coding. We also talk about her strategic mindset towards business growth and her philosophy on team happiness and creative leadership. It's my pleasure to introduce Talia Cotton. Hey Talia. How, how you doing? Good to see you.
- [03:10]
Talia Cotton
Good to See you too. How's it going?
- [03:13]
Radi Malinich
Yeah. Welcome to the show. It's been pleasure to have you on. I'm curious about what you do. I want to know more. I'm very curious and nosy person, so expect a lot of questions. But for those who have never heard of you, how would you introduce yourself?
- [03:26]
Talia Cotton
I am Talia Cotton. I am a designer, coder and the founder and creative director of Cotton, a design and technology agency. I spent my entire adult career life at the intersection of branding and technology. And I finally started an agency with a focus in bringing that expertise into the next chapter of design.
- [03:49]
Radi Malinich
What you do is quite, I would say, remarkably different because there's a quote, I've been grinding to death on this podcast and I promised myself I will not wheelie out again. But today is very useful. And that quote goes, the market is only saturated if you look and sound like everybody else. What you do, what you say, what you create doesn't look and sound like everybody else. That's a compliment. So I would like to rewind it back before we get to talk about what you do right now. What was the first encounter of creativity? How did you get to do what you do today? What was your journey?
- [04:24]
Talia Cotton
I was always creative. I was born into a family of musicians. Both my parents were musicians, which means they were poor, but it means that our entire household was just overflowing with creativity. I was drawing at a young age. My sister is an artist. I was always doing, like, creative activities in my free time. I think because we were poor, we didn't really have, like, summer camp and things like that. So I distinctly remember, like, trying to fill up all my summer vacations by creating activities for myself and my siblings. I actually recently was going through old files of mine and I saw a to do list that I made for myself in the summer between third grade and fourth grade. And it's super creative. It's things like create activity of the day, make new things, pretend I'm doing this and go on this fake journey in my head. It's really, really cool stuff. And I distinctly remember that being my childhood. So I was always creative. And then the other thing was, I was always good at math and science and English and all that other stuff. So when I was applying to colleges, I basically got to pick. I was like, I can either go the creative route or I could go the math and science route. And originally I said my parents were creative and they don't make any money, so I'm going to go the business route. So I actually Originally studied business and psychology. I did that for a couple years. I was really missing the creative aspect of that. I just remember, like drawing in all of my spare time, doodling on all of my statistics things, just be saying that I wanted to be more creative. And eventually I transferred over into Parsons, discovered coding there my first semester. And pretty much as long as I've been designing, I've been coding as well. So since the beginning, I've seen them as one and the same. It's not that I was designing first and then I was coding or the other way around. It was like always there, side by side. My design teachers were critiquing my work that I had decided to make with code. They were critiquing them as though they on the same level of everyone else who didn't use code. So I was just getting normal design critique with a different kind of a tool. So I've been living and breathing this stuff since the beginning of design. And that's how I got into it. That's the, the start of everything.
- [06:42]
Radi Malinich
I want to talk about your parents for a minute. That's okay. I want to talk about your parents because you said about musicians and we were poor. What was their spirit? What type of music did they play? What sort of creativity did you get to see from them?
- [06:54]
Talia Cotton
Okay. I love this podcast, so this is amazing. You're so great. So they were both very emotional people. And it's funny because I'm not bad. I've got like the passion of a creative, but somehow the sort of. You know how everyone always says you try not to be your parents. I love my parents dearly. I talk to them both every day. But you try to sort of like fight back against the things that, like being your parents when you turn an adolescent. So they're both very emotional, very, like, passionate. They were no longer together, of course, because they just took fire. Just would not work together. So that's always what it was. But it would like, like literally my dad would be playing piano till 4 in the morning. I would just like go to sleep with it going on in the background. And it was just what my reality was. I didn't know any other thing and I just assumed that that was normal, like any child does. Yeah.
- [07:45]
Radi Malinich
Where did you grow up so you could have your parents play piano till 4 o'clock in the morning and not have anyone be knocking on the door saying, can you stop?
- [07:53]
Talia Cotton
It was a rare thing. We actually grew up in New York City, in Manhattan. We lived on the sixth floor of a multi Apartment building. So we had people across the hall and two next to us, on either side, above us, below us. And we never got noise complaints. And I don't know why that is. My assumption would be because the noise wasn't your average pianist being, in a way, it was my dad, who's extremely talented, very, very, very good. So that was never an issue. For some magical reason, I love it.
- [08:27]
Radi Malinich
You try to imagine the situation like, what was it like at 4 o'clock in the morning to have someone play? And actually no one complained because as you said, the talent must prevail over the noise and sleeping people.
- [08:37]
Talia Cotton
We were lucky because for that. I used to play piano till college, after college, and there was actually a point in my life where I was going to become a professional pianist. I was competing, I was performing, I was playing, I was practicing for six hours a day. I had a whole repertoire. It was super cool. But I guess what's nice about that is because the neighbors were so forgiving, it didn't even occur to me that that was something people would be complaining about. So I was also able to just like, practice all the time.
- [09:06]
Radi Malinich
Piano. Is it because you love math? So, like, piano to me is quite sort of mathematical instrument. Was that your first choice or did you gravitate to any other instruments?
- [09:17]
Talia Cotton
That's a great question. You're doing such a good job. I love this. My older sister, who's two and a half years older than me, was playing piano when I was born. My parents were like, all right, we can't have two kids who are playing the same instrument because there's going to be competitiveness between them. So Talia is going to play violin. And so I started playing violin when I was 4 years old and I did performances and I did this stuff. And I don't know what it was, but I didn't want to play violin. I adamantly wanted to play piano. I don't know why. It might have been because my sister did it and I was jealous and I wanted to outshine her. I don't know. But the story goes that I would literally, in the middle of my violin lessons, I would throw the violin on the floor, run to the piano. I had a lisp at the time, so I would just go there and start banging the piano and say, I want to play the P. O. That was like the thing. So at between four and seven, I played the violin. When I was seven years old, my dad said, okay, finally, I get it, no problem, Talia, you can play the piano. And I did And I loved it ever since.
- [10:18]
Radi Malinich
What was it like to be growing up in Manhattan? Obviously you had your little list of activities that you did in summertime. What did you get to do and how does the surroundings and the creativity around you inspire you or what was the surrounding like?
- [10:31]
Talia Cotton
It was great. I'd say it was a very inspiring upbringing, you growing up here. You grow up with a certain level of independence and you ride the subway to school. I stayed there late. I did every single extracurricular. I would get home at midnight as a high schooler because I was busy at school doing everything. And I think when I went to college it was my first time outside of New York City. So I was in Pittsburgh for two years. And there is something about just like the energy and the drive of people and just constant. It's just that energy that I missed. I didn't realize didn't exist elsewhere. And I just had gotten used to it growing up. It's just you're always trying to like do something else and be at the top. And it's very exciting growing up here. So coming back is every single time I would come here for Christmas vacation or whatnot, it would be like, oh, there's that spirit again. I love it here. I can't ever leave. And since then I don't want to leave. People always ask me if I'm going to live somewhere else ever. I'm a die hard New Yorker. I love it on the worst day, I love it in the middle of the winter. I love it at 5pm during rush hour when everyone's stressed out. I look around and I love the people and I love the energy and everything that it is, is what makes it it and is what made me.
- [11:49]
Radi Malinich
Without a doubt, what a love letter to New York. And yeah, I don't blame you. I think it sound like in the right place and you were born in the right place and you're living a life that you know you are destined to live. So when you spend two years in Pittsburgh, you already told us what it felt like. But how did you fill the void? Because I mean, you told me just a second ago that you did every bit of curriculum and you stayed late and then you're in a place which is slightly less busy and less frenetic, maybe less ambitious. Did you have another book of activities that you tried to put together like just to keep yourself occupied or.
- [12:20]
Talia Cotton
When I was in college there I paid for my own college and Carnegie Mellon is a very competitive, difficult school. So my workload kept me busy. But on top of that, I was also the only one of my friends who had a full time job. I was working 40 hours a week doing, or maybe not 40, but I was working almost every single evening at a bar, slash restaurant, cafe thing, just to make money so I could pay rent. So that's what I did to pass the time. And I would hang out with friends. The kids gotta live. But that was mostly what I did.
- [12:55]
Radi Malinich
Let's talk about the creative part, because we're gonna take you back to your musician parents because music comes with music. Album covers. Do you remember any particular albums you listened to? And do you remember any particular album covers that actually inspired you?
- [13:10]
Talia Cotton
Good question. I think the obvious answer, which is actually not the answer, would be, well, all the old jazz covers, because the old jazz cover is so beautiful. But we didn't really look at the album covers. It was more my own playing and listening to my father's playing, like the live playing. One of the things we used to do is we used to put on the same. We still do this. We put on the same piece of music, a classical piece, because that's what we would listen to, or jazz. And then halfway through it would be like, we'd be like, oh, but remember how this person played it? And then we would switch over to the exact same piece, same notes played by a different person and just listen to that version and then go back and forth and then that sort of takes the conversation into something else that that person played. And then it's just like this journey through like music history and really listening to the subtle differences between the notes. I don't think much about being raised as a musician and in a really heavily music focused household and how that affected what I'm doing today. But there's absolutely a correlation, a relationship between that. Because as creatives, we're so careful, we're like analyzing every little visual thing, like the smallest, smallest things. Like you have to be able to see that and understand that. And I think it's very possible that the same skill of listening to notes and the very subtle difference between that which we had just growing up as kids is just how we listened to music. I think that it's very possible that that affects the work that I do today.
- [14:38]
Radi Malinich
I would not say it's possible. It's definitely the thing why it happened. Because as you first told me, the answer, I was like, I can see the reason why you work in a code. I keep debugging. Why are you working that way? Because, yeah, it was. Interesting answer because I'M from the visual side. To me, music was passive. I was inhaling the music. Different genres, like my sort of view of music was like, okay, what genres do exist? What can we try? What can we listen to? How does it make me feel? And the visual side, it comes with it. Whereas you're like. It was more to playing and actually analyzing the notes and like the nuances. I think that's that I'm like, okay, that's why she's even coke now, because that's makes perfect sense. So after your stint in Pittsburgh, you came back, you go to Parsons, you start coding, you start designing with code, and more or less give yourself, would you say handicap, like trying to recreate things in code while someone just types copy in Adobe Illustrator? Because it seems like to me, like you made it potentially a bit more difficult for yourself to get to the basics.
- [15:35]
Talia Cotton
Actually, before we go on that, can I add one more thing about the music? You were drawing this connection between music and coding because you're listening to the notes and you're analyzing the notes and make like analysis side of coding. But then there's also the performance element of playing music. And when you have an entire, which is so much the same, the same skill that I had, I grew up with, there's the listening thing. But when you're playing, I compare it to if anybody plays sports, if anybody's a runner, if anybody's a dancer, which I was forbid. There's a certain thing that happens where there's a million things that are happening in all around you. And yet your focus is like this hyper focus on one thing, but also general focus on everything. And there's something. There's really nothing quite like it, right? So in playing piano, there's so many things going on. There's 10 notes that you could be playing at any given time, but then there's the previous notes that you played and the next notes you're going to be playing. You're looking at the sheet music, you're pedaling your beat. It's not just the notes themselves. It's like, how much pressure am I going to give every single note that I'm playing? So that. And doing this voice, and it relates to this voice. So there's something almost like not coding at all about that. It's very emotional, it's very controlled. It's a focus level which I don't even know if I would connect that with the creation side of what we do. I don't know what it is. It's something that everyone should do it right.
- [17:04]
Radi Malinich
You said that you didn't want to do what your parents do, which was to be broke. So you went to study business and psychology. What did that feel like? Because you told me earlier that obviously you were missing the creative part of it. But what was your main takeaways from these two things? Because they are slightly nuanced. It's business and psychology. Like normally it's business and accounting or non business management. And you've got psychology with business. So how did that feel?
- [17:27]
Talia Cotton
I loved it. I really did. The name of the major was decision Sciences. It's very few schools offer that. It was the intersection of business and psychology is like the psychology of business, which I loved. And if you think about that kind of is what we do, right? In branding, we are creating, we're understanding how people's psychology around visuals can affect businesses strategically. That's the same thing. I didn't know that, but it is. It's a lot of similar thinking. And when I finally did go into branding, I do think that a lot of the principles that I learned in my time there, they appeared elsewhere, which is really great. I really, really, really liked it. But like I said, there wasn't that creative thing going on. When I left. I originally only left. It wasn't like a direct like transfer from CMU to Parsons. It was all right. I've done two years at cmu. I am paying for my own schooling and I don't yet know what I'm going to be doing with my degree here. So I'm going to take one year off and I'm going to try to figure out in that one year what I want to do with my life and what I want to do with this degree. And if I can figure that out, then I'm going to come back. And if I can't figure that out, then I'm not going to come back and I'll figure something else out. Yeah. And so that's why I left there.
- [18:40]
Radi Malinich
What did you do? So did you take a year off? Did you fill your book of activities again?
- [18:45]
Talia Cotton
I went to teach English in Italy. I was beginning to learn Italian at the time and I was like, the only place that I'm ever going to really learn the language is in the place. I'm taking this year off. I might as well. It would be a job thing because obviously I was always thinking about how to make money. So I went to a small town in Italy, stayed there for a year, taught English at a school au paired for a family, met hundreds of different People became fluent in the language and came back to New York a year later. And the plan was that I was going to go back to Carnegie Mellon and study there. Eventually I said, no, I'm still not ready. I don't really know what I'm going to be doing with my degree there. Long, long, long story short, I had some medical problems once I got back to New York, and a couple years after those medical problems were resolved, I enrolled in Parsons and the rest is history, as you will see.
- [19:35]
Radi Malinich
I've got happy to take you back a bit by one step. Every question and answer. How was Italy? Whereabouts did you stay in Italy and what was that change of scenery? Because obviously we've done New York, we've done Pittsburgh and now we are in Italy for a bit. So. Yeah. So I wonder, any particular surroundings that you enjoy there with your sort of picked up a new sort of Italian lingo? How did you feel like, what was the life like away from New York for a year?
- [19:59]
Talia Cotton
Did you ever travel before you were like 30? Did you travel in your 20s?
- [20:04]
Radi Malinich
I moved to the UK when I was 20 and I've been here for 25 years. I traveled a lot as a child. Yeah, yeah.
- [20:11]
Talia Cotton
I think another thing I would recommend for everyone to do, first of all, learn how to play piano when you're four years old, but take a year, like a full year in your 20s and live in another country. Live in a place where you don't speak the language and you never know what you're going to learn from that experience. And I think at the time, you're still young enough that the culture shock is something you can digest and you can really easily just acclimate to it. Obviously it was a culture shock for me, obviously, like, I had no idea where I was and I was like 19 years old. But it doesn't affect you. Like, you just think it's normal, like you're still a child in the grand scheme of things. So you're going through this kind of like, weird, like, displacement thing, but you are soaking it in and you are meeting people and you are forcing yourself out there and you force yourself to speak a language and it's just how. How it is. So I would work every week, I would do the teaching, I would do the AU pairing and at least one weekend every month I would go and travel and I would just see another city, another place in Italy. So I was really just going out and meeting people and talking to people and just Italy is a good place because everyone there is super friendly. So you can just start a conversation and it's great. I think what I learned from that whole trip, which definitely applies to the job that I do today, and creatives as well. Another reason I'd recommend it is because a huge part of being in branding and design in general is talking to people, getting them to open up, understanding them, sometimes reading between the lines, just speaking to them on their level and putting your biases aside and sort of like saying, I know the world through these eyes. But I'm going to for temporarily, while I'm talking to this client or this person, I'm going to try to see it through their eyes. And I think being young, doing that for a full year, just sort of like, I don't matter. I'm just going to experience everything and soak everything in and hear these people's stories and communicate with them any way that I can. Even if we don't speak the same language, is a very, very good skill to adapt when you're younger.
- [22:05]
Radi Malinich
Very much agree with you about the need to move away for a bit. I moved for a year. Has been 25 years now. And when you're learning new language and I'm sure you will test to it, like, you actually have to listen because you don't know every word in that sentence. Actually you slow down because in your native language you'd be like, button into people's answers. Yeah, of course, you know, you have a more fluent conversation, whereas when you're learning this, you learn in your language, you're like, I have to really tune in where it's is something that we miss in our native languages. Unless you really teach yourself that you need to actually pick on the nuances, like how to actually understand everything. Because as you said in branding, like, when we're talking to each other, the most knowledge we ever get is to actually let someone speak and actually tell us your problem. What is it that you do? How do you do it? What can you do better? How can we do this? Because in my books, I say, if you're working with branding clients, don't let them tell you their solution, but let them go fully about a problem. Like, how can we know this is our problem? What can we do about it? So this is where your psychology, I think, again comes into full play with the piano playing like, we're putting all this together. So you got your couple of years of not being ready to go back and then you go back and you go to Parsons. So how was that as a next chapter?
- [23:14]
Talia Cotton
It's interesting because I said Something in between Italy and Parsons. And I always tend to skip right over it. And the nature of these questions have been going. I feel like unfair for me to skip over it. And especially I think your question is like, how was that transition, this new thing, really what the transition was, it was less about Parsons and it was more about this other thing. Basically what happened was. I am going to skip over the details because it's just disgusting, but I had a very bad life threatening accident as basically as soon as I, oh, a year after I got back from Italy, a little less than a year after I got back from Italy. And then that put me out of commission for everything in my life. From my early twenties, for two and a half years I was in the hospital doing stuff, had five surgeries, couldn't go back to school, couldn't do anything. But in that time I was being a little bit more creative than I ever had been prior because it was the only thing I could do. My hands were fine, so I was like painting a lot. I had a friend who was actually a teacher at Parsons who like gave me all of these like prompts to do things. I did some continuing editing, painting classes or sketching classes at Parsons just to keep myself doing something. And then at the end of my fifth surgery, I remember I was in the hospital bed and I was just tired of the whole thing. And my doctor basically said, you're not ready to go start life again. And I said, I don't care, I'm doing it anyway. And I did. And to answer your question, my first time back at Parsons, I was the girl on crutches. They had told me that I wouldn't be able to walk again when this whole medical thing happened. And luckily that didn't happen. But I was like experiencing life for the first time again. So obviously you're seizing it. Like I'm on crutches, I'm a little bit older than everyone else there and I was just so happy to be doing anything. I was happy to be alive. I was happy to be doing creative things. I was really smart because I had the business and psychology background and I was a creative school where everyone's doing, not business and psychology. And I was just so happy. So I seized every moment. I was always working on my craft, I hung out with friends. But it was mostly just seizing what I had, like the second chance that I had been given essentially. And it was very exciting.
- [25:29]
Radi Malinich
Thank you for sharing that. Because I did gloss over this purposely. I didn't want to go into a detail, but I'm glad you shared it. So it does sound like you didn't really need a sort of a nudge to appreciate your life more because you were living life full. But after your accident, after this episode, it sounds like you were not chancing anything. You were going for everything that you could see.
- [25:55]
Talia Cotton
We'll be back after a quick break.
- [25:58]
Radi Malinich
If you're enjoying this podcast and would like more support and information on your creative journey, you can pick up one of my books to help you do just that. My titles cover branding, graphic design, illustration all the way to career, business advice with ideas how to navigate the highs and lows of the creative process. You can pick up signed paperbacks at no extra cost from my store@nobmberuniverse.co.uk and we are shipping worldwide use code podcast for extra 10% off your order and you can find the links in the show notes. Any day should be a new book day.
- [26:42]
Talia Cotton
Yeah, I did. Like I said, I mean, I was very confident at that time. Also, I remember a funny moment where one of my teachers was collaborating with Stefan Sagmeister on something, and I just remember running into him in the lobby of school one time and I was like, hey, what's going on? And he's like, oh, nothing. I'm just on my way to Stefan Sagmeister to do blah, blah, blah. And I said to him, oh, okay, I'm coming with you as a joke. And he was shot right back as a joke. Okay, let's go. And we just sort of like, joked our way through. We went to Dick Blick. We got our art supplies. We were like, okay, I'm gonna do this. And we just sort of like, I just joked my way confidently into Stefan Sagmeister's office where I work for the afternoon. I was like, turning the page. I was doing this. And Stefan Sagmeister complimented my sweater. And I was just like, on cloud nine the rest of the day. But that was a really good just demonstration of how I was so confident. I was so happy. I was just like, just taking every moment that I could to just kind of like, put myself out there and enjoy just again that I had this chance of this opportunity.
- [27:46]
Radi Malinich
Is your confidence pure New York, or was it just like, at that moment after your accident, like, anything goes, I'm going after every opportunity.
- [27:55]
Talia Cotton
That's a good question. I don't think it's the accident that did that. It's a little bit of everything. Yeah. I don't know.
- [28:02]
Radi Malinich
Yeah. Every time I meet people from New York, they always Come across like, yeah, I'm going after everything in my life. This is how I've seen the surroundings work, therefore I feel the same. And I think it just becomes a norm. There's a beautiful sentence in a book by a guy called Derek Sivers and he. It's in a book called Hel, yes or no. And he's got a chapter that says, the goldfish don't know that they live in the water because to them that's a natural thing. So there you go. You got to take entrepreneurs from San Francisco or from California and everyone's an entrepreneur. And when you see people from New York, like most of them I've met, they're like, yeah, they all just come. It rubs off on you. So I was thinking that just sounds like a natural confidence. Like, of course you would ask Stefan Zeigmeis to do it because you see lots of people at creative festivals and they go, oh, Stefan Zeitgemeister. I can't ask him a question because I don't want to interrupt him. I don't want to be polite. But you clearly managed to spend an afternoon there and do that. So from Parsons, you find yourself at Pentagram. What was the motivation for going to Pentagram?
- [28:57]
Talia Cotton
So it kind of. I was coding a lot at Pentagram. It was a good kind of crossover between design and code. Prior to that, I had worked at another branding agency. I was their digital lead, meaning that they saw that I had this skill. They wanted me to sort of like lead them into the next chapter. But there was still enough resistance in the leadership there that I wasn't able to really fully overlap the two. Then I became an independent creative and developer. So I did a lot of just web development stuff on the side, but I was also doing some creative stuff. And then Pentagram, Georgia Lupy emails me one day and says, hey, I don't know if you're looking for a job, but I'd like to hire you on Pentagram. And I'm like, okay. So I never interviewed there, I just got the job. But when I was there, it was on Michael's team since he was an expert in branding and still is. And there's nobody who's ever going to be that good. I was leading a lot of the code based branding things, so they were a little bit more interested in the future of design. Like, how do you make a generative identity? How do you make a website that's a little bit more creative? So I was leading the charge on those kind of projects. I was helping out the team and a lot of small things I was helping out, like sometimes some of the other partners as well. And then on George's team, she has a data background, she doesn't have a branding background. So I was leading the branding projects from a data slash numbers, slash coding lens. So it was really opposite ends of the spectrum and it was really good because I got to work in both of those types of worlds and because I had the autonomy while I was working there to get the confidence that I needed. Right. So because I was leading the projects, I wasn't necessarily answering to them. They were kind of like I was presenting my expertise in this way. Oftentimes I didn't even have to get their approval before showing it to the client. It was really this kind of like autonomous role which was very good, very good for me and led me to the next thing, which we'll probably cover at some point too.
- [30:59]
Radi Malinich
It sounds like your role at Pentagram actually merges your business and psychology because you were talking about data, you were talking about branding, you were talking about how it all comes together. So yeah, I think when people look at their sort of journey, sometimes they don't feel like how will this add up to that next thing in the future. And I think in your case I would say it's a non linear path, but when you stack it all up, you're like, yeah, that's a linear. Like obviously you can follow it if you've got abstract mind like mine. Yeah, to me makes perfect sense, Absolutely perfect sense. So you've decided to leave Pentagram because you were not that fulfilled, from what I know, if I got that right, and you've decided you've started your own studio and this is where you are now for the last few years and as we all know, and most of us all like, starting your own thing sounds fun, but it always is because it was entails a lot more than just creating lovely animated things and code and stuff. So how was that transition for you?
- [31:55]
Talia Cotton
Very strategic. I never wanted to start my own studio. I think there are too many studios out there and I don't think you should reinvent the wheel. Just if you want to work at a studio, work at a studio. And I never, I weirdly, even though I studied business and psychology, I was never interested in the business side of things. I didn't like the idea of having to like deal with payroll and deal with getting clients and deal with all of the shit that comes with making a business. And despite this awareness that I didn't want to start a Business. I still deemed it the best possible thing that I should do at the time that I left Pentagram because I still wasn't able to combine design and coat as well as I could if I were on my own. And so far, it's been a dream. It's been everything that I've ever wanted it to be. But that transition, like I said, it was strategic because I knew that it doesn't sound fun. You said starting your own business sounds super fun. It doesn't sound fun. It sounds like a headache. And it has the potential to be a headache. But I spoke to a lot of people. I got accountant, a bookkeeper, a lawyer. I set up my books, I set up my project management backend software. I set up like this pipeline tracker of every new business that got in and like, tracking them through. I made sure that we were set right. I always tried to beat the next problem to the punch. If we got too much work, I tried to hire someone. So it's just been like pushing through the shit of the first couple years of business so that I can come out at the end and actually do the thing that I want to be doing. Running a large team, being, like, making the kind of work that I want to be working not just as a sole practitioner, but as a business person, a big creative director woman y thing. So that's the goal and that's how it's going. And it's going great. It's exactly where it needs to be. And I'm excited to see what happens next, but I'm also pretty sure I know that it's going to be great.
- [33:49]
Radi Malinich
Let me take you back to that initial quote I said. Market is only saturated if you look and sound like everybody else. What you do doesn't look and sound like everybody else. So how was it to find new clients and how to get off the ground?
- [34:01]
Talia Cotton
We've luckily never had to. For now. We've never had to go out and actively look for clients, which is great. The fact that I can run a business, pay many people's salaries, and also pay myself and also make money for the business without having to look for clients is I'm so blessed. I don't know how I got that lucky, but I did. And yet, like I said, my dream is I'm not trying to just sort of, like, start a studio and see what happens. I want to build. I want to make jobs for everybody who loves doing what we do. And I want to run a team of a hundred people or create a hierarchy like that. And that's the kind of thing that doesn't necessarily happen without a little bit of strategy. You are catching me at the end of, we just celebrated our second birthday. And what's nice is that now the first half a year to a year of business data, I'll call it the types of clients we get, the types of proposals we win, things like that, I don't really count it because it's the first year of business, it doesn't really count. It's not really going to define how things are going to go. But we finally have enough business data to sort of like look back and see where we found all of our clients, what we got paid, what we lost in the process, what proposals we won, what proposals we lost, how many hours we're spending on this, how many hours we're spending on that. And I just ran the numbers, I just grabbed that data. I just did a whole company audit all by myself for now. Next time it'll be someone else and really trying to, like, honestly look at what our weaknesses so that we can plan our next step. And it's possible, it's likely now that we have some really good clients under our belt, some really great projects out there that in the next year I will try to explore the world of actually putting ourselves out there and actively looking for clients. Because that's not something we have done. And I don't think that you can build that big as I would like to be just by seeing what happens. There's some studios that do it. I can name a couple that do it. And it's, oh, my God, that's amazing. But I just want to make sure I'm covered and do what I know how to do and just sort of like, strategize that way.
- [36:09]
Radi Malinich
You said, I feel like I'm lucky, but the luck favors the prepared. Like you were prepared to be lucky. This didn't happen by accident. Yeah. What you're describing, I think this is a playbook for someone who's actually looking for advice is not going to come to you. Like, you can be in demand Studio. When you come up with something new, you've got that tinge of, oh, what are they doing? This is different. And it lasts for a while. And I think it's happening. And it happens to freelancers, creatives, illustrators. You're the new thing. But then the flame, until you really have a strategy of how to keep it alight, then the flame will go out. And I think that happens to quite a few. You mentioned that you did your data, you did your audit. You're kind of like, again, who does that? That's very impressive because again, there's. I think especially with the creative profession, you want to be just creative, but when you unpick it. I remember wanting to be a rock star. I never really thought when I was 17, 18, that would be in rock star entail. It's not always being on stage and making new music. There's lots of boring bits in between. I'm like, oh, I see, okay. But the business side of things is so imperative because that makes us any fascinating studio that we've had in the past that fell because of business and never fell because of their creativity. So I think we should talk about a little bit about the process of what you've got, because now we've got more people. As you said, you're paying people salaries and a business is cash positive of two years work, that's about 700 days. What was the highlights? What was the thing that you didn't expect to happen? Because you can strategize for lots of things, so you can see lots of things coming your way. But what was the highs and lows of running your studio?
- [37:41]
Talia Cotton
Before we get to that, I want to respond to something. Just go back to the conversation about luck versus strategy a bit. Because I'm sure there are some people out there who, who believe in luck and that maybe they think they don't have it, that luck hasn't gone their way. Therefore, even though they're super capable or super creative or talented or smart, it's possible that things just didn't go their way. I have this argument with one of my best friends all the time. He and I have both been very lucky in the sense that we have a good career, whatever. And he's also very, very smart. And we talk about my stance my whole life. I'm the eternal optimist. It's terrible, but I always think that no matter what the thing is possible, it just goes back to how much you want it. And if you want it hard enough, you will figure out the right strategy or how much you want it and how smart you are about getting it. You'll figure out the right strategy, you'll get the right talent. If you don't know the answer, you hire someone or you'll ask somebody. But if you really, really want something, there is nothing that will get in your way to have that. And that's the strategic side of things. It's like saying, yeah, there is no luck. You make your own luck. You just work really Hard. And there are a lot of people who would agree with that. My best friend says, or one of my best friends says that there is a play of luck into there and that even though you have all of that strategy, sometimes it just doesn't go your way. I don't know. I don't know the answer. But I do know that the way that I've lived is kind of like, it's worked out pretty well for me anyway. So you asked about highlights and lowlights of the last 700 days of business. Yeah. Highlights are definitely when my team is happy, which is every day. But when they do really, really good work, I'm really happy because I just love seeing them do good things. It's really exciting. Lowlights have been recently, it's been a lot of work for me. So when it gets to be too much, it's a lot and it's really stressful and anyone would sort of like cave under that. That's where the strategy comes in. I'm upset. I working too hard. I'm doing too many things. So therefore, what can I do differently and how can I re strategize and that luckily that's, you know, being cleared out right now. That's basically it. I don't know. Oh, another highlight is in all the speaking engagements that I do. It's really nice to meet wonderful people along the way, yourself included. It's been really nice. You meet people all over the world running businesses, super big creatives, and you just sort of like, meet them and you like speaking the same language immediately. And it's just such an honor and it's just nice to have friends like that that we're just like immediately clicking. It's great.
- [40:23]
Radi Malinich
I want to ask you, how do you define happy? How do you define happiness? Because you said highlight is seeing your team happy. Happiness I see as happiness as something which is happiness is a service. We hope that happiness is like luck. It comes and finds you, but you have to put yourself in the right position and align yourself with the elements. So how much of a importance do you put on happiness of your team and how do you tweak it so it happens?
- [40:49]
Talia Cotton
Happiness is the number one thing that I prioritize on my team. So much so that even in the hiring process, one of the main thing that I ask myself, is this person going to be happy here? And how long is this person going to be happy here? Is this person going to be happy here? Just for the beginning while they're at a new job or while they're Figuring themselves out, Are they going to grow? Are they going to reach a ceiling? Are they going to want more? Are they not going to be challenged? Are they going to be challenged too much? Are they going to be excited to work here every day? That's what we define ourselves on. I did design and code because I love it. I love it so much. So that's what I know. I know that both the designers who work for me right now, I hired them because they were excited, they were passionate, they wanted to do this. And I'm like, yes, you can learn everything in between that. But as long as you're excited to be here, then I'm happy. And it's a really great way to do it because, you know, work, it's not going to be perfect every single day. There are going to be some days where it's a little bit more tense than others and deadlines and blah, blah, blah. But I can confidently say that we just make it so that we want to make sure that they're happy. We do check ins. I want to make sure that twice a year we go over the projects that they've been working on. We ask what kinds of projects they want to be working on that they haven't had a chance to kind of skills they want to be improving on, where they see themselves in five years, every single time, how they want to move up, what we can do to accommodate that, just sort of like making sure that, that it's the right kind of a place for them. One of them said, I love it here but I wish we had a coat rack. And I'm like, okay, I guess we got to get a coat rack. And we did. But yeah, it's very, very important to me.
- [42:24]
Radi Malinich
You made a transition not to being a boss. You've been talking about hiring, you've been talking about this is again like this is a very grown up way of looking at a running studio because you say some of the loves recently where it's been a lot of work and sound like it's been quite heavy, but you still looking out for the well being of your staff, of your team, like you're still looking out for the future because that requires quite a lot of mental load to be able to do the work, to run the studio, to make sure that you have your lawyers, accountants and bookkeepers and everyone. Just like that requires a lot of mental capacity, sort of cognitive capacity. So some people don't want to do the boring business stuff, but obviously you've taken it quite easily. But what's it like for you to be making a transition, not only leading the workbooks, leading your team, because, again, that requires a lot thought of, I would say, growing up.
- [43:12]
Talia Cotton
It's a good question. It's sort of like there's no choice but to do it. I don't have a choice. I have to put that effort in. And right now, I don't know a world where I wouldn't be doing that. It just comes with the territory. I will say it is a big focus of mine, especially considering that we are eventually going to, like, structure and have directors and whatever. Hopefully we'll see what happens. But just like that tiered system. So I think the more I think about team right now, the better it'll be in the future, because that will already be prioritized, because the team is everything. The team is the company. I'm the mind, I'm the direction, I'm the creativity, I'm the strategy in terms of combining the design and code, because I know that I have that skill and really good at it. But it's also like that. If I die, there goes everything. Right. So I have to really just build it in a way where it's going to work and live beyond that. And that's what I'm doing. And the team is the only way to do it because they're going to be the hands.
- [44:12]
Radi Malinich
So, as you said, you're the mind, you're the business brains, because the way you work and I think your studio works in a way that potentially has got an advantage over traditional design studios or branding studios. Of course, there's a lot of digital involved in. In many places, but what you do is quite ahead. I think we should touch on a little bit on AI, because it's been on everyone's lips for a while. And I know that you use AI for a little of your design process, but not fully. Don't rely on it, or you just find yourself outdoing not the AI generative process in certain ways. So how do you see the future of cotton in five years or 10.
- [44:48]
Talia Cotton
Years from the perspective of AI? Right, yeah.
- [44:51]
Radi Malinich
It's just like how. Because we can't deny AI is here. I'm sure you weren't using as much as we do. I mean, it's an incredible tool in certain ways, saves so much time and frees you up to do other things. What do you reckon? Let's predict the future a little bit. Would you reckon that actually AI, as good as it could be in five years? Could it be part of your workflow? So Much so that it's integral, or do you reckon we still will be, you know, very much using it as a prop, just like we use all of the features in other applications that it's just the nice things to have, but can't really rely on it.
- [45:20]
Talia Cotton
That's a great question. I don't think anyone knows the future of AI, but I can guess so currently we use it to help us with just like the tedious code stuff that any developer can write. And that way we can focus on applying the code a little bit more creatively in ways that AI currently doesn't have the skill to do or think about. AI might evolve, but it very likely will. But I still find that I think I'm the minority, but I don't feel threatened. I don't feel that creativity is threatened by AI because AI isn't creative by nature. It requires. Requires human creativity to operate. So in that regard, I don't think we'll be threatened. I think we'll probably have either integrated into our processes even more. But even more this relates to like the future of cotton. I don't think that projects are going to be our only source of revenue for the next five years. I think it'll be that. And I think that what we can do is it lends itself to turning into a product or something that people can use. One of the things we do is we make custom design tools because you create a design system and then turns it, people want to be able to hit a button, follow that design system and make a thousand different things that come out of it. And right now there really isn't anything that does that because it always breaks the system in some capacity. So we make these custom design tools where it gives you like the parameters, you can follow that system and it sort of like makes sure that you stick within it, but also gives you super flexibility within it and allows you to do things that you couldn't do necessarily with your average tool. And as we're working on building all of these custom design tools for our clients, we're also thinking about what is the system behind building a custom design system. And that's the kind of thing that we might be able to. I'm thinking about productizing just for now, see where it goes. And it's possible that AI will be one of the things that helps us get there. So that's like a long, rambly answer, but it'll be there throughout.
- [47:30]
Radi Malinich
I think again shows your strategic thinking. We can do beyond just the studio work because everything changes. Like I Think when you plan for the future, what you plan mainly for is to change. Like, what you've created today is going to work for now, and then it's going to change in a year's time, two years time. I think that's sometimes one of the mistakes that people make. Okay, my business is working now. My work is coming. I don't have to do anything about it. And then you realize, actually, you know what? I should have been planning for the future because it's changed. And it surprised me, even though it was not surprising. Before I let you go, I want to talk about the fact that you said you're an optimist and you said, how much do you want it? I think that's one of my favorite questions. Again, it's one of my books. What do you want? What would you want to be? How much do you want it and how good you want to be? What is that and that sort of melting pot of yours?
- [48:19]
Talia Cotton
I want to be absolutely clear that I really love what I'm doing and that I found the thing that I'm here. It's just. I love it. It's just everything that. Everything in my childhood and everything that I've ever done, it sort of like takes me here. And it's what I want to be doing. And it's so great. And if I had enough money to retire tomorrow, I would still be doing exactly what I'm doing. Because it's that great. If, in addition to that, just life. I don't know. I like life. I like dancing and I like people. I like breathing in air and appreciating being alive. Playing piano, seeing family. I love my family. So a boring answer if I think about it, but I would be doing exactly what I'm doing now. Plus a little bit of, like, funny, fun stuff. I don't know, more fun stuff.
- [49:12]
Radi Malinich
We'll revisit that question in 20 years if you got the opportunity. But I think with what you've done so far and with what you're doing and where you're heading, I'll be excited for what's next because it's not going to be boring in any possible way. Yeah, I'm really thankful for how you led this conversation and what we've got out of this because, yeah, I knew a little bit about you and I've got two pages of notes now. And, yeah, I'm truly excited because what you do is truly, in my opinion, unique. And it's got its own sort of identity and signature. And, yeah, I'm sure you're gonna, you know, do some amazing things.
- [49:43]
Talia Cotton
It's been so nice to have this conversation. I've done way too many podcasts and you're doing a great job. You're really killing it. I hope you get more viewers. And if you're a viewer right now, then you're listening to someone pretty special.
- [50:07]
Radi Malinich
Hey, thank you for listening to this episode of Mindful Creative Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions, or even suggestions, so please get in touch via the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by ME Radimalanic. Editing and audio production was masterfully done by Neil McKay from 7 Million Bikes podcast, and the theme music was written and produced by Jack James. Thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode. Hey, just a quick note to say thank you for joining me on this episode. If this is your first time or you're a regular listener, please take a minute and rate the show on your chosen platform. A short review helps every show to be more visible to new listeners and provide them with value. So thank you for helping out. Thank you.