← Daring Creativity
Daring Creativity
The art of the pivot at the intersection of creativity and hospitality - Dahlia Ishak
00:57:28
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- [00:01]
Radha Malinj
Before we start today's episode, let me tell you about my latest adventure. Introducing Lax Coffee Company, a specialty grade coffee company inspired by creativity and creatives. The debut range is sourced from some of the best farms in Brazil, Peru, Colombia and Africa, offering beautiful flavors and notes. Our single origins and house blends are roasted every Monday. For next day shipping, visit luxcoffee.co.uk and use code podcast for 15% off your first order. And yes, there's exceptional merch too. Luxe Coffee Company is where art meets exceptional coffee.
- [00:51]
Dalia Ishak
I used to really reach out to a lot of events and creative anything that was happening in the city and like host things at the shop. So my connection to creativity was as a facilitator, observer, connector and just like host. And even though I wasn't designing, I was building my bonds and a lot of genuine relationships with people who were creating all day and that kept me stimulated. And if the cafe didn't have that diet, I don't know, maybe it would have been different. But that allowed me to stay really connected to the industry.
- [01:29]
Radha Malinj
Welcome to Mindful Creative Podcast, a show about understanding how to deal with the highs and lows of creative lives. My name is Radha Malinj and creativity changed my life. But it also nearly killed me. In this season, inspired by my book of the same title, I am talking to some of the most celebrated figures a creative industry. In our candid conversations, my guests share their experiences and how they overcame their challenges and struggles. How they learn to grow as creatives. A creative career in the 21st century can be overwhelming. I wanted to capture these honest and transparent conversations that might help you find that guiding light in your career. So thank you for joining me on this episode and taking the first or next step towards regaining control of your creative life. You ready? My guest today is best described as a full hearted creative who only eats snacks and has a penchant for wearing many hats. Indeed, she's a designer, entrepreneur and educator. And that's just the beginning. Her career took her from Canada to living and working in Australia, where she built a vibrant community through hospitality. When she had to return back to Canada, she had to rebuild her life and she did yet again through more hospitality ventures. Since then, she's pivoted into branding following pandemic changes. Throughout her journey, she has balanced design, hospitality, business and teaching at Shillington College, consistently finding ways to connect creativity with the community. It's my pleasure to introduce Dalia Ishak. Hey Dalia. Welcome to the show. How are you doing today?
- [03:13]
Dalia Ishak
Good, thank you. Thanks so much for having me. I love the show and it's just so nice to be here and to spend some time with you.
- [03:21]
Radha Malinj
You're most welcome. I'm looking forward to finding out more about you, about your explorations, about the things you've been doing, because you've got quite an interesting angle on creativity and we'll get deep on it. For those who may have never heard of you, how would you introduce yourself?
- [03:37]
Dalia Ishak
I currently run a food and beverage branding studio in Canada in a city called Hamilton Toronto. But my background is a mix of agency work and hospitality work. I run a number of hospitality businesses over the last 15 years, as well as doing contract design work for agencies, both of which giving me a lot of freedom and independence to bounce between the two. And post Pandemic losing our shops have shifted into starting a studio in food and beverage. I also teach design as well online and yeah, I'm just really passionate about all the different ways design and creativity and entrepreneurship can open up new possibilities for people.
- [04:25]
Radha Malinj
There's a lot to unpack. There's a lot to unpack. You and I had a coffee in Toronto and I was just fascinated. I was fascinated with where you did things and how you find a way to restart. Like how there's always a chapter and then it phases onto another chapter. So I normally ask people to rewind it back and tell me what's the first point of creativity? Like, how did you get into do what you do and like trace it back a bit. Little bit. So take me back.
- [04:56]
Dalia Ishak
Yeah, my parents are Egyptian. I grew up in a small city in northern Ontario and Canada. And the mix of the two led me down a path where design and creativity was like, not even on my radar. I was going into sciences. It was a bit of a default in terms of second generation of that culture. You go into like science or doctor, pharmacy, anything like that. And it was only a few years into university, I was visiting a friend who was doing industrial design in Carleton that I actually realized that there's courses out there for that kind of had this side of creativity and design and they had the student lab that they would all work in. And I was just completely enthralled. And at the time, that department was the industrial design department and the architecture department, though not knowing still what graphic design or commercial design or design was. I applied to the architecture department because it just seemed like the closest thing of they had a class that just. I got a glimpse of when I was visiting that seemed really interesting. So I made a folio I was always very creative, but not in a way that I thought could lead to anything or not in anything I had given much thought to. So I put together a folio, applied for the architecture school, got in, got the interview of mapping out my semesters. And I was talking about this one design class that I saw over and over. And then the dean actually was like, do you know that there's a course called design, like communication design? You don't have to go into architecture to do design. So I was blown away. I transferred into design at a school back in London and just absolutely dove into it from there. It was not on my radar at all. Even though my room was covered in design. I used to collect pop cans and tape them all over the wall. I used to keep all the badges from all my jeans and every bag that I ever got from a store I would keep in a box. But for some reason I never made the link that could be something that people do.
- [07:04]
Radha Malinj
I think. I think that happens to a lot of us that suddenly that eureka moment, like, oh, wait a minute, what's this? Oh, what do you mean I can do it? I thought it was for other people to do this. Yeah. Isn't that interesting that you are surrounded by the things you admire? I think it's a bit like discovery. Then you can be in a band, like, oh, wait a minute, I get an instrument. Oh, this is good. Oh, I can be a designer.
- [07:27]
Dalia Ishak
It's like you collect it, but you don't make the association that there's humans out there producing that and that you could be one of them. It was like completely disconnected for me. I never made that connection.
- [07:41]
Radha Malinj
So what was your treasure, can or design from that time that you had around your room? What was that still makes that impression.
- [07:48]
Dalia Ishak
Cans all over my wall, on the windowsill of my window. I taped them all up like a premium and I had all the back to back World Series Blue Jays pop can, Limited Edition 1. When the blue Jays were like a big deal in Canada in the 90s when they had won, baseball was really gaining a lot of like fandom and fun. And then I had the original crush can that I still have now that I just really loved. And yeah, I used to just tape them all over the walls and I just had ads and labels and cans and paper and just everything everywhere. And I really honestly just never even thought that that was something to do. So, yeah, it's fun looking back now where I'm at because yeah, it wasn't on my mind at the time growing.
- [08:35]
Radha Malinj
Up do you remember your first creative pursuits? Did you try to replicate, mimic your inspirations? I don't think you must redraw in Blue Jays logo. But what did you do?
- [08:46]
Dalia Ishak
Yeah, I was always very, very creative and that's what's odd about it. I used to, I used to win a lot of illustration contests and I used to have illustrations published in the local papers and I used to write a lot of stories. But I again, because my parents were very science focused and we were in a smaller city, it just felt like a personal interest. It didn't feel like there was a career path in it or any avenues for it. It just felt like a creative outlet. I used to, yeah, paint a lot, draw a lot. I used to like, you know, really go overboard and make very ridiculous personal items for friends and boyfriends in terms of like, when you look back, it's clearly graphic design, like very graphic design, love letters and notes and stuff. But again, I just really didn't know that that was a thing. It was just something I did for fun. We'll be back after a quick break.
- [09:47]
Radha Malinj
If you're enjoying this podcast and would like more support and information on your creative journey, you can pick up one of my books to help you do just that. My titles cover branding, graphic design, illustration all the way to career, business advice with ideas how to navigate the highs and lows of the creative process. You can pick up signed paper bags at no extra cost from my store@nobmberuniverse.co.uk and we are shipping worldwide use code podcast for extra.10% off your order and you can find the links in the show notes. Any day should be a new book day. Did you ever feel with your creativity, since it was more of a hobby, did you ever feel like you might have to follow your parents footsteps? Was there ever sort of any pressure or did you.
- [10:41]
Dalia Ishak
Yeah. Yes. It wasn't pressure, it was what they knew. So my parents, like I said, they're Egyptian, they moved to Canada, they're doctors, they're of the mindset that. And maybe it was in my head because when I did approach them to switching to design, they were actually a lot more supportive than I thought. For them, what they thought was a good path was just you go into one of these paths, it's stable, it's secure, as very, very not smart. But we were pushed to do a lot of homework. I was good with my grades. So, you know, it just felt like a sure thing. I guess for lack of a better description of like, you know, you do this, it's Good, you study, you do well and that's that. It was not on the radar. And also then being from Egypt, we lived with, my grandma was Egyptian, she didn't speak English. We weren't exposed to a lot of pop culture. We were from a northern city that was a pretty low key city. It wasn't like very urban. So all those things together, it really just felt it was like again, I didn't make the association that there's people that live and breathe this and do this as careers. To me they were just a bunch of stuff I collect and like a hobby that I had. And I was good at arts and I liked it, but it didn't go further than that. And yeah, my parents, it's not that they disapproved of it, but I just don't think it was on their radar either when we just moseyed wrong that way.
- [12:02]
Radha Malinj
So your creative career taking you from snowy cold Canada to Australia pretty quickly. Exchange program for designing a brochure. Let's find out more about that. So yeah, how does one go from one side of the world to another?
- [12:19]
Dalia Ishak
Yeah, I, when I found out about graphic design, I ended up going to a college in London because I wanted to get into it straight away. I was in it like a hundred percent. I used to sleep at the labs. I had a laundry basket that they would let me keep at the computer lab at school that had my stuff in it because I would just spend so much time in there. And I was in there all night, all evenings. I used to try to get friends to come and they eventually just let me leave a basket of my stuff so that I didn't have to like keep bringing back and forth. So I was very, very in it when I found it. And when I graduated from college at the time in Canada, I was nudged to get a degree and I did have job options, but not knowing much about the industry, I felt pressured I have to get the degree, so I went back to school. So going back to school immediately following the same program over, I was getting really bored and restless doing it again. Then started looking at other programs or possibly exchanges came up as an option to just mix it up and get something new out of it. And at the time I was interning at an agency and there was an Aussie there and he was telling me about this amazing school in Australia where they had like a lab at the school where you did real live projects for real clients run by the school. And I was just enthralled. But our school didn't have A program to Australia. So I went around the school I was at OCAD at the time, took a bunch of photos, I got a bunch of signatures and I put together together this brochure about OCAD and sent it to the exchange program people for the exchange program in Australia and was like, is there any interest to do a partnership with our school? And they said if you can find someone to come, like to do the exchange with, if we can find someone, then we'll give it a shot. They found someone and that person moved into my apartment in Toronto and I moved into my friend's parents house in Australia. And we did the first launch of the exchange and it was totally made up. They lived in my apartment with my roommate. It was like completely off the tail of putting this whole brochure together and like really pushing for it to be an avenue. And then from there there was an exchange program with OCAD and Griffith University in Brisbane. And I became the ambassador for students after that to like help with the program and offer advice. And then that roommate that lived in my apartment when they moved back to Australia years later ended up staying in Australia after that. I never came back. They ended up dating a friend of mine. It was just like such a small world. They just showed up again. So yeah, it was pretty amazing. But honestly for me that was like the first indication of, you know, if you have these skill sets to just make things happen and you just have to make it look enticing and look real and put the information and the passion out there. And this brochure I still have that I made and it was just looking back, it's so dorky, but it really worked. It's like a little booklet about the school.
- [15:29]
Radha Malinj
We're not going to talk about a topic of restart, but I think we should start with a topic of start because this is quite remarkable just to invent create an exchange program because you heard about Australia being an interesting place and you made it happen. This is remarkable. I like it a lot.
- [15:45]
Dalia Ishak
Yeah. When I think back on it, you're like 20 years old and you're like, that's nuts that we did. But that's the power of graphic design. We make a good little brochure booklet and it does wonders.
- [15:57]
Radha Malinj
Thing is, yeah, if the power of graphic design and power of actually innocent, you're like, who cares? Let's give it a go. What's there to lose? So you stayed beyond just that one. You stayed beyond your exchange and yeah, you progressed in your career. So what was that thing about Aussie life. So in your experience, moving from Toronto to Brisbane, what did that feel like? What was the first draw?
- [16:22]
Dalia Ishak
Yeah, it felt like a holiday and a movie and it never went away. It was honestly like, I went at that age of peak passion, excitement, the world's open and I lived in Brisbane. Brisbane was actually, interestingly, Brisbane was just up and coming relatively at the time. This is probably like 15 years ago or almost 20 years ago now, actually. So Brisbane was a city that it wasn't a country town, that it had developed or originated from being smaller and more. More of that. And at the time, there was. The people would think that you'd have to go to Melbourne or Sydney to, like, have opportunities. And people were dismissing Brisbane. And I was really, really lucky that when I arrived in Brisbane, there was a handful of people that decided that we're going to make stuff happen in Brisbane, we're going to stay in Brisbane and develop creative culture and community and food and beverage and everything here. And it was really, honestly amazing to be at the starting point of that and the starting point of that intention and that energy. There was a handful of really talented designers that stayed and they would do art events and studio launches and all sorts of, like, festivals and music festivals. And then there was hospitality people that stayed and there was music people that stayed. And everyone just stayed and put all their young creative energy into the city. And it actually was incredible to watch it literally transform the city over that 10 years. Brisbane has since become like, such an incredible, incredible world city. And we watched it happen on the grassroots level a little bit from my industries anyway, and it was really cool.
- [18:16]
Radha Malinj
Our mutual friend, Matt Haynes from the design conference. Yeah, he told me his story about. I think his story is about 15 years old, like, how he started a conference and like, how we went from just being excited to. He's still excited, very excited. But, like, how we've grown organically and actually proven that it's okay to be wherever you are because it's about what you make from the place. Has also spoken to boys, Kyle and Paul from Pennybridge. They're on Palm Beach. I need to get it right again. Like, I think what I'm getting about Australia is that sort of that protectiveness of the land. And it's like, we got local clients and we got these clients. I'm like, I'm sure it's fine. Just because I think creativity is not good just because you're from a certain place. Creativity is universal. It breaks barriers, it breaks borders. And I think if you're good. And if you really feel and if you live and breathe what you do, it doesn't matter where you are in the world. I think that's done. Especially being in places where you can make something out of this, I think sounds absolutely magical.
- [19:17]
Dalia Ishak
I agree. Yeah. Just being part of that development and seeing it like Matt and the Penny bridge boys. Been so fortunate to see them from those early days develop into huge beacons of the industries. So it's so cool.
- [19:31]
Radha Malinj
Let's bring it back to you for a second. So things are happening for you in Brisbane. You had a sort of nexus of the news and you managed to get into advertising and you got no sleep. I think that's the sort of standard thing that happens. So how was your life changing?
- [19:48]
Dalia Ishak
Yeah, so I was really, really lucky to get a job in advertising from graduating from that exchange program. And I had done quite a lot of work on my graduation project and got some attention, managed to get a job, was very lucky. I put a lot into it and it landed. And the result was I got sponsored to be an art director at an agency in Australia which completely changed my life. It was really, really exciting as a young person in finding an avenue to stay in a city in a country that I was absolutely in love with in every possible way. Creativity, culture, community, the people, the lifestyle and getting to work in this very still mysterious, super exciting industry of all the various kind of design, advertising, creativity concepts. And that was the era of time where all the ad agencies, I don't know if it's still like they all had like pool tables and arcade games and beer fridges. Cause they're like gonna be really fun to spend all your time here forever and never leave. And when you're young, you're like, this is the best thing ever, you know. Of course you're like never playing the pool or doing anything. You're literally just working. But it was still fun. You felt like you're part of this fun, exciting world. And it was really fun and exciting. But it was also like of that time, you're at the studio all the time. I was doing all nighters all the time there on the weekends all the time. It was, I'm old enough that this was back in the day when we were doing pitch work overnight and day work during the day. So we're doing cloning work during the day and pitches would be like from 6pm to 3am and that's just like how it was. And you're young and you think it's so exciting. You're like, oh my gosh, I get to have ideas all night and they bought me dinner and it didn't last. I mean, it did in that it was really cool, really exciting. I did it for three years and then I just started feeling a little bit disconnected to it. I wasn't connected to the clients. This thrill of having a creative idea and seeing it happen was gone. The campaign nature of advertising, I wasn't totally connecting to. It's like a lot of in and out. There wasn't a lot of. It didn't feel like you were creating anything for me at the time that I felt really there was substance or I felt really connected to. It just felt very superficial to me and very disconnected. You're not connected to the client, you're not connected to the outcome of the solution. You don't really know if you're making an impact. You're there all the time. There was a lot of. You had to really love the advertising industry. And I just found that I wasn't connecting to that specific type of industry. And at the time I was really, really falling in love with the coffee industry in Australia. So I was noticing just honestly how exceptional the coffee was everywhere and how dedicated everyone in those shops were to the craft and service and quality of the experience of the product of the coffee. Everyone was like spending people spent time in the cafes. It wasn't just like triple decker takeouts. You really went in, you had your beautiful coffee, you went to work. They were like just my escape spaces whenever I could get to. And it mostly would get to them more than anything else because we're always at the studios at night. So I started dreaming up this idea to go freelance and potentially open like a freelance hub, a co working space that had a mix of a coffee shop and a space that I could work out of and decided to go ahead and try making that. So. So it was a mix of just feeling a bit disconnected with advertising and feeling really, really drawn to this coffee culture.
- [23:52]
Radha Malinj
There's so much to unpack in this answer. So much to unpack. Just a quick answer on this one because I've got a question for you. Did you feel like bringing your basket with you? Because it sounds like you are very much chained to your desk, but this time maybe not by your choice. I think that's one of these days, like when you see a toothbrush on someone's desk, you're like, at first it looks exciting, but then you were like, okay, there's still a toothbrush on your desk. Like this shouldn't be happening. But I think again, that was that sort of in a way, age of innocence. Like at that time, like when we rewind 20 for some people, 30 years, like it was exciting. But then you can't imagine doing it now and you can't even imagine putting people through it because how much of your time must have been spent on absolutely futile work. But I just want to ask one question before we go to the coffee culture. You said that you one project that you did, a project that got you the sponsorship. So what was the, what was the graduate project that you did?
- [24:45]
Dalia Ishak
I did this non viral type of campaign before the age of Instagram and Facebook. I found a photography studio at my school and we made these paper sets and paper outfits. So I made myself a bunch of paper clothes and a little paper room that she photoshopped me into and everything was made out of paper. I was wearing white paper in a paper, white room. And I started this like little project called Drawing on Dahlias. And I printed little postcards and vacuum sealed them with a black, red and blue pen. And the idea was that you would draw, fill in the paper, draw whatever you want, draw like patterns, graphics, and then email them back to me. And then I would exhibit those at my graduation as opposed to my work, like aside from my work. And it was just a way to connect to agencies. So I sent these all out to a bunch of agencies and designers. It was a way to be a bit more interactive with graduating and have a bit of fun. And it ended up working really, really well. I got a lot, a lot of feedback, a lot of interest, and I literally got a job offer out of it that allowed me to stay in the country and end up living there. So it was. I have old snapshots of it. It's so funny looking back on it now, but there was a set of four cards. We did it so that the photography student can use it in their folio, I could use it in mine. And it was just like a fun way. The whole concept of it was this blank slate and everyone relating to that empty piece of paper and people just responding to it however they want. But it also meant that I could draw into it and color into it for different studios in different ways and make messages for them and send them out. So it was pretty fun.
- [26:30]
Radha Malinj
That's amazing. Yeah. I think what I'm picking up from all of this is just that you always think with an idea and a plan in mind, like, where does it take me? What do I do? So let's talk about Coffee now, because obviously I wanted to fill in those blanks. I see. That's what I did there. As you know, I run an indie coffee company and sometimes, like, how do I explain to people how much better is great coffee? So what was your first encounter with great coffee like?
- [26:59]
Dalia Ishak
I would challenge you to go to Brisbane and have a bad coffee just as the baseline. And then having a great coffee in Brisbane is just unparalleled in. I wasn't even that passionate about coffee. Like, I like coffee, but that completely changed me and becoming something that I just really can genuinely enjoy. And it really is like they put so much time and effort and focus in everything, in the roast and the beans and the blends, but also in the care of pulling the shot, steaming the milk, the environment. And every single part of that process generally as a whole in Brisbane, more often than not, is just so considered and thoughtful and the people there are so invested in it that you do feel it and you taste it. And it's just about that focus of those details again, like on a superficial, like, overarching level, you maybe wouldn't notice, but when you add all those things together, I think it's like impossible to ignore it. Possible not to feel that, like in that cup and really enjoy it. And it really came through. It was really inspiring.
- [28:17]
Radha Malinj
Honestly, I have to say, when you start looking into coffee process, like, what makes the difference, like even just a sort of decimal difference in the temperature and the method you make, it actually makes a different coffee. You're like, wow, how do you explain it to a normal person that does what they potentially should be doing? But you've opened your own sort of co working space and it wasn't that long after you've landed in Australia, you were only 25. That again, as Dahlia, like building her own future, like inventing your own dream future, I mean, that's quite daunting. Like, what do you have to do to actually open a space? Because you rented a cafe, you got baristas, you were running your own business. Wow. You don't just talk about stuff, you do it.
- [29:02]
Dalia Ishak
Yeah, it was daunting. I did not know a lot. I went around to all my. The cafes that I was frequent, seen and asked them a bunch of questions and luckily they were pretty open and generous with the information because coffee culture there is such an industry path. They're not baristas are in it to potentially own coffee shops. The roasters are in it for the long term. There's a lot of support and resources around owning cafes. Because there's a lot of culture and appreciation to do well with them and is really embedded in the culture in Brisbane anyway. So through that there's actually there was a lot of avenues. It was a lot easier to open the cafe there than when we came back to Canada. So the roasters will give you the machines. If you use the roast, they'll train you. The leases and food permits were more clear and easier to obtain. Luckily, I had an uncle that lived in Sydney who advised me to only lease for one year first and then do an add on just in case it all fails. So I had little pockets of advice. But I also went into it completely naive, completely blind. The idea was that I built out the cafe my husband's family does woodwork in. So we built every like his dad helped and him build all the furniture and the bench and everything. And the idea was we built the cafe, we built the desk and I would run the co workspace and run my studio. And we would rent the cafe to baristas who needed a stepping stone for their own business who didn't have the resources to open a cafe, but they could rent the cafe from me and run it as their own business. That was like the model. But it quickly fell apart because the baristas came and went. It's hard to run a business. And suddenly I had to run the business. Just seemed like the most straightforward way to do it. So I was quickly in the position of learning how to run a coffee shop. That was really hard and quite the learning curve. I knew nothing. I was terrible at it to start. It was a big drop from the baristas. We had to me running it. We had to get our roaster to come in and train us. I didn't know anything about sales. It was a mess, honestly. It did not start well. And the only thing that I had to get through it all was that I was in it. You just had to get through it and figure it out and prove hopefully day by day that that was it.
- [31:35]
Radha Malinj
Sounds daunting. Sounds daunting. Especially if people are used to great coffee. And then you're like, you get it wrong. There's nothing worse than a coffee connoisseur who doesn't get the right stuff in their hand. But we still managed to grow it to a second location. It still couldn't have been that bad.
- [31:51]
Dalia Ishak
Yeah, it started bad, but it did. We learned quickly, put in a lot of effort and asked a lot of questions. Had a lot of really supportive fellow shop owners on the street that came in and helped me understand daily sales and what to do. My husband actually ended up quitting his management job and he went and worked at a friend's kitchen for six months to get some hands on training. He was always a good cook, but like more commercial. And then came on to help me run the food side and people rallied around. I wouldn't have been able to do it alone. And we eventually got our foot in and got a better space and were really able to run it then. But it was really rocky to start and it was really hard. Also. What got us through at the time was the novelty of the idea of the cowork base with the cafe. Because this is 20 years ago and in Brisbane, so coworking wasn't really a common term or concept. And working in cafes was definitely not a concept back then in Brisbane for the coffee world of like how you live that. And I was coming from a North American background where it was more common to set up and work at a shop. And I liked that stimulation. So this idea of it being a co work space in a coffee shop put us on the map. So it allowed, like, people to at least give us a chance and more people to come check it out than they probably would have given that it was so rocky to start. Plus we had the desk people using it so they needed coffee.
- [33:28]
Radha Malinj
So around that time, yeah, it's still in your mid-20s or mid to late 20s. It was a creative, creative 20s. You worked in an ad agency, you did all of this creative stuff and then obviously you're pulling shots and steaming milk. Where does creativity come at this time? Like, did you miss it? Did you put it aside? Where did it go?
- [33:48]
Dalia Ishak
Yeah, that's a great question. I think I was really lucky that the cafe was this cowork studio space. So we had studios. So my one way to stay connected, even though I wasn't designing day in and day out, but I was constantly hosting other creatives. So everyone using the space was freelancers. Where we moved to, there was a lot of design studios on the street that they would come in. They would use our boardroom for brainstorming to get out of the office. We would talk, I would talk about their projects with them every morning. Because you've become part of people's routines so you see them every day. You get to hear about what they're doing at the studio. I used to really reach out to a lot of events and creative anything that was happening in the city and like host things at the shop. So my connection to creativity was as A facilitator, observer, connector, and just like host. And even though I wasn't designing, I was building like bonds and a lot of genuine relationships with people who were creating all day. And that kept me stimulated. And if the cafe didn't have that diet, I don't know, maybe it would have been different. But that allowed me to stay really connected to the industry.
- [35:00]
Radha Malinj
Obviously your selflessness, kind of looking to give other people space kind of did that for her because some people just can't let it go like they want to be that creative, especially during that part of our lives. So that sounds like an interesting time, like meeting lots of people, actually opening your network for a space that you give them to thrive. But this all sounds quite obviously quite turbulent, quite fun, quite interesting, like up and down, up and down. So after all of this, you find yourself back in Canada. What was the reason?
- [35:35]
Dalia Ishak
Yes, I was living in a very happy life and it was great running this cafe, being part of the industry, getting the cafe to a place where I could start doing contract work. I had started teaching at that point as well, at night. And the building we were in got sold or was getting sold and we were on a very bad lease that I didn't know how to protect myself through, not knowing enough about business. And we basically had to leave. It made the decision really easy. But it also meant that the rug was like pulled under our feet. And we tried to find a space, another space for about a year in Brisbane. We had a fundraiser. People rallied behind, but we just couldn't find the right space and everything just disappeared. We couldn't find a new place that would work, couldn't find our footing. We didn't really have the resources to invest in something totally new again anyway. And my partner and I ended up getting married. We had a child come in. So we decided it was a good time to move back to Canada and reconnect with family and spend some time there and just reset. So it wasn't planned. It really came out of the blue and it was a really hard transition. And moving back to Canada was hard because I loved it in Australia and especially losing the shop and everything as.
- [36:56]
Radha Malinj
Well, the change of surroundings. You said it was hard, so, yeah, that sounds like a quite hard time in your life. What was that feel like?
- [37:07]
Dalia Ishak
Yeah, it was a lot of uncertainty. We moved to Canada. We picked a city that obviously my husband, Australian, so you didn't know any cities, but a city that I didn't know that it would be new to both of us and the city was A bit on our radar through some old friends in Canada. And they had said, it's creative, it's up and coming, it suits your vibe and you might be able to do stuff there in a good location. So we decided to just go try the city blind. And it was really hard moving somewhere. I know I'm from Canada, but I didn't move to a city where we knew anyone. We didn't really have a plan. We had a child. We lost this thing that I was loved in the shop, the community, as well as so connected to the community. I loved Brisbane. I loved the energy there, I loved the passion there. And we moved to a place where you don't know anyone. But also it wasn't at that time. It took a long time to find the creative inroads there. So, you know, you're really isolated. You don't feel like there's any avenues. It's an industrial city. It's not super cultural, super design forward, super creative forward. It felt a lot like the town I grew up in. Just it felt like going backwards and that you're losing opportunities, you're closing the door on all these bright futures that you were connected to back in Australia where you could have a creative career. It just felt further away and maybe not even there. I really had to dig for it in the city and it wasn't as like front facing. It's not a city that's like a super urban city that's just full of designers and music and creative, at least on the surface level. But after doing a lot of digging and really putting in the effort, we have found that it is actually a really rich city in art and culture. But it's not on the surface. You had to dig it out. But that took a long time. And it was. The initial period was really, really hard. It was a shock to the system and I was. It was very depressing.
- [39:15]
Radha Malinj
It's kind of a polar opposite to being in Australia, right? Because you landed in Brisbane, you were like, this is amazing. And you go back, I don't know anyone. I was like, oh, a child. And everything change. And I think there's just emotions of life. But you made it work. You worked open an Australian style cafe. Did that work with Canadians?
- [39:33]
Dalia Ishak
It actually went really well. We had nothing else to offer. We tried to do the cowork space, but we couldn't find a lease here that worked within our budgets and we just couldn't find Putin. Like I said, we didn't know anyone. I was doing pretty terrible design work for anyone I could find that was things that were just like in and out, very low paying, changing JPEG business card type stuff, like very old school, just surface level, like just put a graphic on a piece and call it a day, trying to get by. I had my kid, so really when the opportunity came, there was a cafe closing down. We took it over. It just seemed like a way to at least do something that we were passionate about, get our foot in, at least put our eggs in that. Because I was really struggling to find avenues in design at the time and really make that a thing. So we took over the cafe, we turned it into an Aussie style. So all that means is really great, like specialty coffee, but also really great seasonal, light, fresh food which was rare in the city at the time. There's a lot of like standard North American, like eggs and bacon hash type breakfasts and it just stood out and it actually was incredible. I. I don't recommend that to meet people or get your footing to you have to open a cafe. But this is what I love about hospitality spaces, is that they're just this melting pot of like literally meeting everyone and seeing everyone of all different people pass through and we just got to meet so many people and it really opened up a lot of avenues for me in design and hospitality. So it was great. It changed our life. We made all our friends that way and I think it would have been a much more difficult time without the shop for us.
- [41:34]
Radha Malinj
What an advice. If you move to a city, you don't know anyone, open a cafe, you meet a lot of friends and you'll make it work. So all of that experience has led you to open a branding studio that serves food and beverage and hospitality and event startups. You've done work, you've had your boots on the ground, you've been in the trenches and I would love to believe that all of that experience has put you on the right foot to offer not only sort of design services but also consultancy to some of these startups and brands. Right?
- [42:04]
Dalia Ishak
Yeah. I ran the cafe for five years before doing the studio. Three good years, two years through the past Pandemic and also during that time, pre Pandemic, we had partnered to open a boutique wine bar with some friends through kind of meeting other hospitality people through the cafe and also through the cafe, just getting more and more little gigs with food and beverage suppliers and friends of industry. And then when the Pandemic hit, we had the cafe, we had the bar. The bar. At the time, we didn't have any avenues to sell Anything at the time. There's liquor control in Ontario, so you can't retail alcohol. And as a wine bar, there was nothing else to sell when you're closed to the public. So we started a campaign to help raise money for ourselves and for other hospitality shops. And it did really, really, really well. And through that, everything shifted. My shops disappeared overnight as I knew them. The pandemic hit in this city quite hard because it's not a super robust urban city to begin with. So with the pandemic and the closures and then lasting so long, the hospitality scene here that was really growing and really vibrant, like really just got erased and everyone was going through a hard time and all the people I knew were in hospitality. So I was just offering services to friends, just like really trying to help them, help them shift products to retail online, help them do all the things they needed to do to survive in that period, develop products, helping breweries and wineries sell retail to restaurants so that the restaurants could stay open and doing all the labels and yeah, all that kind of stuff. Just really helping people in hospitality through that period. And it really shifted for me. I was like, why not put together these two passions? I'm really connected to feels right. I'm really helping people. It wasn't like advertising where I didn't feel connected to what I was doing. I could really see the people that I was helping face to face and really make an impact to like help them get through those times and then flourish beyond. So I just by default started like being the go to person for people whose businesses were struggling. Pandemic or post pandemic. And then beyond that, I just started getting word of mouth to continue and I decided it was really heartbreaking to lose the shots. We decided not to renew our leases, post pandemic and focus on the studio instead and put my energy there.
- [44:43]
Radha Malinj
You mentioned four letter word many, many times and the word is help. Because that kind of, I think summarizes the whole of your story so far. You are there for other people because you dropped in something a few minutes ago into the conversation. Which leads me to your third title. Because in your bio you call yourself designer, entrepreneur and educator. And you said at one stage is in be in Australia. I said I was teaching at night. I'm like, I know you do a lot of stuff, but like where what are you doing? You're teaching at night. So I've got a note here. I'd like to ask that. So you're teaching at night. How did it come about? Because I know that you're connected to Shillington College. Like, where do you even find time to do this? And you've been doing that for quite a while. So took me through. How did you get into teaching? And how did you see the changes in online education, design education, all of that stuff? So let's talk about your third.
- [45:42]
Dalia Ishak
Yes. So throughout all of this, I've been teaching in the background. It's an outlet for me to share something I'm excited about with people who are eager to learn and connect through that. And I love it. It's an outlet for me. I really get a lot out of it, a lot of energy. So when I was first working at that agency, I was noticing that a lot of the juniors they were hiring was from the School of Shillington. I was like, what is this school? So I looked into it and had it on my radar. And then when I left the agency and opened the cafe, I just reached out and said, I'm not spending my nights at the agency anymore. I'm free at night. Sign me up. It was always a night course. It was two nights a week in person back in Brisbane and then online. It's been three nights a week since I've gone online. And for me, honestly, it's the same as having a kid. To me, those things can feel like, obviously, there's a lot of responsibility, it's a lot of work, it's added focus, all of that, but they're truly just an outlet for me of, like, energy and joy. I get so much out of it, so it actually just keeps me recharged. I really, really, really enjoy teaching. I love seeing students connect and click and encouraging. That idea that there's so many paths in this industry and helping people find their own way, I find really, really enriching and super fun and stimulating. So I was teaching at night when I ran the cafe, and then when we came back to Canada, obviously took a break from it. But then when the pandemic hit, the school went online, so I've gone back to teaching. So it's been five years now. I've been teaching online night through all of this. And for me, it's just like my happy time. I switch on at night and help people find these opportunities through this path that they've gone on. It's really cool.
- [47:41]
Radha Malinj
Shillington's got quite an interesting sort of structure because it's quite condensed, right, because you get students who. What's the right word to use without using the word? Slog it. But, like, sometimes you can Spend four years learning graphic design, whereas Shillington, you can pivot in a matter of months. What's the magic formula? Like, how do you actually. How do you convince people to really pull their finger out and actually change their careers? You get people who are talented, curious, what's the secret sauce? Because there must be something like, in the way of this education that. Would you say it challenges the regular sort of university education in a way that potentially makes the regular education just a bit long drawn and unnecessary?
- [48:27]
Dalia Ishak
Yeah, I wouldn't say unnecessary, just different. And that's what Shillington prides itself on as a point of difference, is that it's run as a hands on, very intense studio format. You're working in class hours. It's not like assignments and then you go off and do it. We are like critiquing and working through things in real time. It's three and a half hours a night for three nights. You get through a lot for a year. It's a year program part time. And what the typical Shillington student is, which I really also connect to and love, is they're usually people that are making some kind of career shift or life shift that always had this inkling but didn't really know. So they're not in a position to be able to afford or spend four years studying. They're usually like, they've been to school before or they have jobs. They're like late 20s, like onwards. They've had life experiences and they're taking this risk to scratch this itch of something that they've always maybe thought was possible but can't invest four years. And what Shillington does is gives them an opportunity or a chance to, like, delve into it a hundred percent, just go for it. And we will take that and run with it. And if you're going to put in the time, we're going to put in the time. And it is very demanding. You cannot miss class. I personally cannot imagine. These are students who come in after a whole day at work and then spend three hours. I only have to deliver the content and give feedback. They have to make stuff and they're making it every night. And it's so exhausting and I'm so impressed by them. And it's because they've made that decision and they're fully invested and we champion that and take that and run with it. And that's what's so special about Shillington is that it's specifically designed to get the most practical outcome from that time it started by someone who used to run an agency and wanted to have the graduates be like ready to hit the ground running. And it didn't matter where you start, as long as you're ready to go and you have to put in the work. And it is a lot, but they do it really, really well. I'm always amazed by how far these students get in the year.
- [50:45]
Radha Malinj
I think there's something magical about the commitment of someone who finishes work and goes and does something. What they really want to do at night. Because a lot of people started their careers when they were still in full time employment, but they were freelancing at night doing their own thing. Because when you do what really challenges you, what makes you light up, you just go for it. It doesn't matter what time it is, we will sleep later. Some other time maybe. So, yeah, it was actually nice to learn about it because I think it's the right model just to get people ready for what's to come. Because I'm not here to be on either side of the argument. Because everyone needs something different in their life. It takes people a long time to work out what's going to happen next, what am I doing, like, how should I do this? And I'm friends with lots of educators, I do guest lectures and I just try to insinuate and encourage people to actually, just to be a bit more curious. And I had a wonderful Diana Varma on a podcast recently. It was nice to learn like how she sees the future of education and how she would do it. And there's a lot of people I know who are in this space who are, I believe students are very lucky to have them because as you said, like not only preparing for that experience, what's going to happen, but you also get people who have been in those trenches and give them the sort of real, real life experience. On your journey, before I let you go, is there something that you still want to do? Because it sounds like you've done so many different iterations, so many different pivots. You lived in no different places, you've met different people, new people, you've created communities. Wow, what's there next? I'm not sure. Gonna. I don't think you're gonna sit still and just thinking, that's me down for next. While I think, yeah, I think that must be something that you're plotting. So tell me.
- [52:31]
Dalia Ishak
Yeah, it's funny you should say that. My biggest personal challenge is that I wanna do more than I'm capable of ever doing. Being just me. I'm Open to so many things. And I'm always, yeah, very excited and motivated about, yeah, what is possible, what can we do? And that's why it's been amazing to meet you. I love seeing all the things that you've done and how even you said you started the podcast to put yourself in this position to have the podcast and talk to people and things like that. I love that. I do have a long list of things I want to do right now. I'm trying to book a, like, trying to get the studio off the ground and figure that out, but I wouldn't rule out having a physical space again. I do miss the social component or if not that, starting something that is social. I really do need or love being around people and I think I get that from teaching. But being at my studio alone all day, I think I do need another outlet of that hospitality, social, just strangers and meeting people and that side of things I really love. So who knows. But I get frustrated that I can't do as much as I want and I have to be patient and figure that out and know that I'll get there. But definitely have things in the works for sure. And that's why it's great. Many people who just put themselves out there and do things like yourself. So it's been great.
- [54:03]
Radha Malinj
Thank you. I think the word restart, I think of what you call it restart or call it pivot or next chapter or second part of our lives or whatever we want to call it. Sometimes you realize that the first barrier between you wanting to do the thing and doing the thing is just your mindset. And when I was starting a podcast, I think I had a microphone and I asked which software to use. But all of what I did, I just booked lots of friends to come on my podcast and I just have to work it out. Just press the button and as I don't plan any questions and you're like, okay, we're gonna do it. And now I'm 65. It's almost 70 hours of recorded podcast in one year. Yeah, it almost feels like it's a ritual because you. I feel quite nosy. I'm generally quite nosy person. And I don't. I like strangers, but I like having conversations with people I don't know just enough about. When I talk to people about exercise or meditation and kind of stuff, you invert it into your routine. When you don't do it, it's like not brushing your teeth, you feel a bit dirty, like you just, this is the thing. And sometimes you can have a challenging week or challenging day, I was like, oh, at 9:00 I'm going to speak to someone on the other side of the world and that's going to be the refresher. And with your businesses, like seeing the real people, like actually making real communities, you must feel like I'm missing that routine. I think I'm missing that sort of thing. And I think when we get a bit older, you just realize in your case, you've been doing this for years and years and years, but starting new things just at the threshold, we lose that innocence. We know that things might be hard, but we've got the wisdom that we've been carrying us as we balance out the expectations and the resilience. We know it's going to be hard, but we're going to stack it a bit better because when we go on high expectations, we just don't know how to deal with the fallout. So I applaud you for everything you've been doing and I'm sure whenever I come back in Canada, which I'm sure is going to be very soon, and there'll be another cafe or there'll be some other co working space or something that we'll get together and celebrate creativity, entrepreneurship, education, all of that stuff. So yeah, thank you for sharing your story with me. And yeah, all the best for your future. Hey, thank you for listening to this episode of Mindful Creative Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions or even suggestions, so please get in touch via the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radim Malinich. Editing and audio production was masterfully done by Neil McKay from 7 Million Bikes podcast and the theme music was written and produced by Jack James. Thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode.
- [56:53]
Dalia Ishak
Foreign.
- [57:06]
Radha Malinj
Hey, just a quick note to say thank you for joining me on this episode. If this is your first time or you're a regular listener, please take a minute and rate the show on your chosen platform. A short review helps every show to be more visible to new listeners and provide them with value. So thank you for helping out. Thank you.