Podcast Summary: "Our Body Keeps the Score, Our Cells 'Remember'"

Mindset Neuroscience Podcast
Host: Stefanie Faye
Guest: Dr. Nikolay (Nico) Kukushkin
Date: June 24, 2025

Main Theme & Episode Purpose

This episode explores the groundbreaking scientific research of Dr. Nikolay Kukushkin, whose work builds on and validates the concept introduced by Bessel van der Kolk’s The Body Keeps the Score: that our memories aren’t just psychological constructs stored in the brain, but are actually embedded within the cells and tissues throughout our bodies. The discussion bridges molecular biology, neuroscience, psychology, and even philosophy, revealing how cellular memory, timing, and pattern recognition govern human behavior, learning, and potentially even well-being and disease.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Memory Beyond the Brain — Cellular Memory

• Concept: Memory is not confined to neural tissue, but is “embodied”; non-neural cells (e.g., kidney, pancreas, skin) maintain a form of memory of their experiences.
  • Quote: "What we have shown is that cells that are not neurons...have ways to memorize their experiences...The way that they do it is exactly the same as what neurons do..." – Dr. Kukushkin (21:16)
• Mechanism:
  • Cells display pattern recognition and can distinguish intricate timing of chemical signals, e.g., a kidney cell differentiates between a continuous chemical pulse and intermittent pulses over the same timeframe. This is analogous to the brain’s “spacing effect” in memory formation.
  • Quote: "Even kidney cells learn better and create more lasting memories from spaced repetition." – Stefanie (7:40, paraphrasing Nico’s writing)

2. Biological Basis of Memory Formation

• Selective Retention:
  • Biological memory is not about storing more, but about selecting what’s most relevant.
  • Quote: “Biologically speaking, memory did not evolve simply to store information. It selects what information to store and what to discard. A form of pattern recognition.” – Stefanie (2:54, quoting Nico)
  • Trying to cram (e.g. studying a textbook in one go) is unnatural and ineffective; spacing and curiosity-driven learning is optimal, aligning with how actual cellular processes encode and maintain memory.
  • Quote: "A helpful way to improve and look at memory is to listen to yourself...use curiosity, inspiration, and even boredom as tools..." – Stefanie (4:25)

3. Pattern, Timing, and Spacing: The “Spacing Effect”

• Cellular Spacing Effect:
  • Cellular memory, like neural memory, is highly sensitive to how stimuli are timed and repeated, not just to quantity or concentration.
  • Implications: Practice spread over time (“spaced repetition”) leads to stronger, more persistent memory — applicable at both organismal and cellular level.
  • Quote: "A cell such as a kidney cell can distinguish between a chemical arriving for a continuous interval of 12 minutes versus it arriving for pulses of 3 minutes separated by 10 minutes." – Dr. Kukushkin (22:42)

4. Memory Types and Their Personal Nature

• Episodic vs. Procedural (Skill) Memory:
  • Episodic: “Autobiographical memory” — experiences, context, emotions (33:29).
  • Procedural: Skills, habits — how actions and their outcomes are linked in the brain (42:39).
• Highly Personal Nature:
  • There’s no “video file” stored in your head. Memory is reconstructed and colored by life experience, constantly modified by context and perception (37:03).
  • Quote: "Memory is just fundamentally private. It's not something you can extract and replay like a video file." – Dr. Kukushkin (37:03)

5. The Risks and Challenges of Cellular Adaptation

• Adaptive & Maladaptive Cellular “Learning”:
  • Cells adapt to repeated exposures (as in pancreatic insulin response, or cancer cell drug resistance, 46:08–49:27).
  • Such cellular “memories” can become maladaptive if the input is harmful (e.g., persistent stress leading to negative health effects, or cancer cells evolving drug resistance).
  • Quote: “That kind of memory becomes the new normal...can become a new normal. Of course, we want to undo that, make the cell forget that state.” – Dr. Kukushkin (49:27)

6. Timing as the Final Biological Frontier

• Uncharted Complexity:
  • "It's the timing that maybe this is the biggest unresolved dimension of biology in general. Because it's so hard to work with..." (53:22)
  • Most research ignores temporal complexity (pattern/scheduling of exposures over time) despite these patterns profoundly influencing cellular and behavioral change.

7. Philosophy, Consciousness & the Essence of Experience

• Molecular Philosophy:
  • Dr. Kukushkin describes himself as a “molecular philosopher,” examining how the smallest components of life (molecules, cells) contribute to the big mysteries—memory, consciousness, selfhood.
  • Quote: “Usually molecular biologists don't think about philosophy and philosophers don't think about molecular biology...but there are some really deep philosophical questions that are solved by looking at molecules.” (19:36)
• The Uniqueness & Mystery of Life:
  • Bridging reductionist biology with the persistent, subjective mystery of human consciousness and personal experience. Complexity of pattern, timing, and adaptation means every life is unique.

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Cellular Memory as Not Just a Metaphor:
  • “We can call them memories without quotation marks because they work in the same way as our normal memories in the brain. They use the same molecules, they process information in the same way. It's not a metaphor, it's literally the same process.” — Dr. Kukushkin (25:32)
• On Spaced Repetition:
  • “Even kidney cells learn better and create more lasting memories from spaced repetition.” — paraphrased by Stefanie (7:40)
• On the Personal Nature of Memory:
  • “Memory is just fundamentally private. It's not something that you can abstract from a brain, remove from a brain, and have it as a standalone object like we have with video files...” — Dr. Kukushkin (37:03)
• On Sea Slugs as a Bridge from Molecule to Mind:
  • “When you start looking at the world from the perspective of a sea slug...all those parts are there...abstraction, memorizing, thinking. It's just a couple of cells, maybe a few molecules. And you understand all these things through really simple patterns.” — Dr. Kukushkin (57:53)
• On the New Biological Frontier:
  • “We really don't know how cells react to these patterns in time. We've just realized that they do.” — Dr. Kukushkin (52:56)

Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment Highlight | |-----------|----------------------------------------------------------| | 00:09 | Stefanie introduces the theme: “body keeps the score”—cellular memory | | 09:32 | Dr. Kukushkin shares his diverse, cosmopolitan background | | 12:41 | Path to neuroscience from molecular biology | | 21:16 | Nico introduces groundbreaking work on memory in non-neural cells | | 26:53 | How do you know a kidney cell “remembers”? Measurement techniques | | 33:29 | Differentiating episodic, procedural (skill) memory | | 37:03 | Why memory is fundamentally private; not a “video file” | | 42:39 | Skill memory and basal ganglia | | 46:08 | Pancreatic/beta islet cell adaptation as memory — and implications for health | | 49:27 | When cellular adaptation becomes maladaptive; cancer drug resistance as memory | | 52:56 | Biological complexity, unknowns in timing and pattern | | 54:35 | Dr. Kukushkin’s upcoming book: "One Hand Clapping" | | 57:53 | Sea slugs as the bridge from molecules to higher cognition | | 61:14 | Complexity exists at the tiniest level; lineage from cells to mind | | 62:31 | Science fiction, future evolution, and open philosophical questions |

Episode Tone & Style

The conversation is intellectually rich but grounded, blending Stefanie’s accessible, curiosity-driven style with Dr. Kukushkin’s deep technical expertise and playful philosophical undertone. The discussion finds beauty in both molecular detail and the vastness of existential questions, consistently returning to pragmatic applications for learning, health, and human understanding.

Further Exploration

• Dr. Nikolay Kukushkin’s website: nikolaikukushkin.com
• Stefanie Faye’s Mindset Neuroscience resources and programs: stefaniefaye.com
• Sea slugs as a research model for bridging molecular and psychological phenomena
• Upcoming book: One Hand Clapping: Unraveling the Mystery of the Human Mind (October 2025)

Summary Takeaway

Memory, adaptation, learning, and consciousness are not just psychological or brain-bound phenomena. The memories that shape our lives exist in the rhythms, timing, and patterned responses of nearly every cell. By understanding these processes, we gain not only scientific insights but also new philosophical perspectives on the uniqueness and universality of life.