Angel Studios is crowdsourcing a "values-based" alternative to Hollywood

Summary

Podcast Summary: Angel Studios is Crowdsourcing a "Values-Based" Alternative to Hollywood

Podcast: Mixed Signals from Semafor Media
Hosts: Max Tani and Ben Smith
Date: May 8, 2026
Guests: Neil and Jeff Harmon, Co-founders of Angel Studios

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the rise and unique model of Angel Studios, a faith- and values-oriented film company that's disrupting traditional Hollywood with crowdsourced greenlighting. Hosts Max Tani and Ben Smith interview brothers Neil and Jeff Harmon to explore how Angel Studios has built a large, devoted audience, why their model represents more than just “Christian” content, their recent box office hits (like Sound of Freedom), and the state of American culture’s demand for meaning and values in storytelling.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is Angel Studios?

• Mission: Angel Studios is a response to what its founders see as Hollywood’s disconnect from mainstream American values.
• Model: Their core innovation is the Angel Guild (2+ million members), a subscriber group that sees and votes on films before greenlighting; any film must get a score of at least 70 to be accepted.
• Notable Achievements: They boast the highest Rotten Tomatoes audience scores worldwide for several genres and films.

Notable quote:

"We built a community where over 2 million people...have the ability to vote on every film, every episode that comes to Angel prior to its release. The filmmaker needs to achieve a score of at least 70 to be considered." —Neil Harmon [03:35]

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2. Hollywood's Cultural Drift

• Personal Roots: The Harmons reflect on their Idaho upbringing: limited TV channels, classic films, and the sense that movies then aligned with their family’s values.
• Cultural Shift: They point to modern blockbusters like House of Cards and Game of Thrones as emblematic of darker, more nihilistic cultural narratives.
• Desire for Alternative: They wanted filmmaking with "hope but still excellence" — stories that inspire without resorting to cynicism or excessive explicitness.

Notable quote:

"If storytelling is upstream from culture...if our culture is going to look [like] this in 20 years, we’re not excited about that prospect." —Neil Harmon [06:50]

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3. Values-Based Does Not Mean 'Just Christian'

• Coverage: While adept at faith-based content (e.g., The Chosen, biblical films), Angel’s mission is much broader, seeking excellence and values like honesty, nobility, and authenticity.
• Genres: Current and upcoming films span romantic comedies (Solo Mio with Kevin James and Ed Sheeran), classics reimagined (Animal Farm with Seth Rogen), action comedies (Owen Wilson), and a Reagan biopic (Jeff Daniels, Jared Harris).

Key moment:

"Christian is not [the only value]. We do faith content better than anyone...But that’s a subset." —Jeff Harmon [07:40]

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4. What Makes an Angel Studios Movie?

• Subtle Shifts: Less profanity, no on-screen sex or nudity, more family-friendly values—but not sanitized or 'preachy.'
• Voting Process: Every film is subject to Guild approval; some films loved by the founders are vetoed, and sometimes the Guild pushes films the founders personally don’t care for.
• Iterative Process: Filmmakers can re-edit and resubmit if a project doesn't pass (e.g., The Shift).

Quote:

"Every single movie. We actually can’t take a movie into Angel if the Guild vetoes it." —Jeff Harmon [11:16]
"It’s a little bit like self-driving cars...most of the time it’s really, really good. But every once in a while...the Guild...does something stupid." —Jeff Harmon [13:00]

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5. Relationship to Mainstream Hollywood

• A Collaborative, Not Combative Approach: Despite touting an 'alternative' status, Angel Studios works with major Hollywood actors and directors. They strip films of all credits for Guild voting, to avoid celebrity bias.
• Star Power Deprioritized: The system puts the outcome in audience hands, rather than agent- or market-driven packaging typical of Hollywood.

Notable quote:

"Our model is the audience first. It’s the Guild, the Guild gets to veto...Not the star, not the agent." —Jeff Harmon [21:43]

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6. Handling Controversy & Conspiracies (e.g., Sound of Freedom)

• Unexpected Hype: Sound of Freedom was completed before QAnon rumors swirled but benefited from both attention and controversy, resulting in exponential box office growth.
• Impact: Film raised global awareness and influenced legislative and nonprofit action around trafficking.
• Views on Conspiracy: Harmons urge focus on factual elements, caution that wild theories can distract from real issues.

Quotes:

"When there’s a wave, sometimes all you can do is ride it." —Jeff Harmon [28:19]
"Let’s focus on the part that’s true, because the non-true stuff takes away from the true stuff." —Jeff Harmon [30:58]

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7. The Guild: Membership, Economics, and Growth

• Membership: $20/month for premium, $12/month for basic; 2.2 million+ members, majority are premium
  • Perks: 2 free movie tickets per film, redeemable directly via Angel.
• Growth: Explosive: from 550,000 at end of 2024 to 2 million+ by end of 2025.
• Rotten Tomatoes: Despite high ratings, their own ticketing system means many Guild member reviews don’t “count” in RT scores.

Quote:

"Our total membership is 2.2 million Guild members and growing." —Neil Harmon [17:51]

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8. Financial Ups and Downs

• Bankruptcy and SPAC: They declared bankruptcy in 2021, then restructured and went public via SPAC; share price declined but Harmons stress the process secured Angel’s mission and control.
• Lessons: Market perception of SPACs and general hiccups haven’t deterred vision or core user growth.

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9. Is ‘Values-Based’ a Niche or the Next Mainstream?

• Self-Concept: Harmons reject the “niche” label, aiming for a business as big as Disney with relevance well beyond Christian audiences.
• Cultural Shifts: They see U.S. culture going through both a conservative and post-Christian phase, but faith (and especially open spirituality) is resurging, per their observations.

Quote:

"We do not think this is niche. We think it’s more mainstream than what’s been happening on the coastal cities." —Neil Harmon [36:46]
"There’s definitely a huge resurgence in faith...with Gen Z, there are very, very few atheists. They believe." —Jeff Harmon [38:12]

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10. Family Business: Brothers in Media

• Sibling Dynamic: The Harmon brothers and a third brother (not present) run the company; they acknowledge both tensions and the unique “harmony” that comes from close familial collaboration, drawing parallels with other family teams in Hollywood and music.

Quote:

"When brothers can figure out how to work together...you see some pretty magical things happening." —Jeff Harmon [39:33]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Guild Power:
  "[The Guild] can veto any movie...There was a really fun Shark movie that didn’t make it." —Jeff Harmon [11:38]
• On Subtlety of Values:
  "People don’t realize it doesn’t have profanity because they’re just funny comedians." —Jeff Harmon on Dry Bar Comedy [08:58]
• On Rotten Tomatoes:
  "Sound of Freedom is the single highest-rated audience score blockbuster in the history of Hollywood on Rotten Tomatoes." —Jeff Harmon [15:59]
• On Star Power vs. Story:
  "We pull credits off when they go into the Guild...otherwise it would bias [the vote]." —Neil Harmon [21:01]
• On Navigating Cultural Controversy:
  "Sometimes all you can do is just ride the [tsunami] wave...Yes, the movie did better because there was a lot of buzz around these issues." —Jeff Harmon [28:19]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction & Model Overview: [00:10]–[04:58]
• Personal Cultural History & Motivation: [05:08]–[07:40]
• Values and Content Differentiation: [07:41]–[10:42]
• Audience Voting & Guild Process: [11:07]–[13:00]
• Comparisons to Hallmark, Mainstream, Rotten Tomatoes: [14:45]–[17:51]
• Audience Scale, Growth, and Demographics: [17:51]–[18:45]
• Casting, Production, and Industry Approach: [18:45]–[22:59]
• Working with Hollywood Talent: [25:04]–[27:25]
• Sound of Freedom Controversy: [27:25]–[32:32]
• Business Model & Financial Challenges: [32:32]–[35:01]
• Niche vs. Mainstream Debate: [35:01]–[38:12]
• Family Dynamics: [39:11]–[41:20]
• Host Reflections/Outro Discussion: [42:08]–[48:07]

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Hosts’ Reflections

• Market Opportunity: The hosts agree there’s a broader demand for cleaner, more values-oriented content than just a narrow religious niche—contrasting with “explicit” modern streaming trends.
• Business Model Innovation: The Guild model both de-risks content and creates a vivid narrative (and marketing pitch) compared to standard focus groups.
• Changing Filmmaking Economics: New tools make it possible for indie studios to achieve blockbuster quality.
• Crowdsourcing in Hollywood: Hosts believe major studios might learn from Angel’s Guild approach, spinning it as “community-driven” rather than focus group driven.
• Rotten Tomatoes Skepticism: Hosts discuss potential for gaming audience scores, but credit Angel with high engagement and ratings, regardless.
• Cultural Commentary: Both see American cultural tastes destabilizing and fragmenting, leaving more room for niche-to-mainstream success.

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Conclusion

Angel Studios’ crowdsourced approach—centered on a vast, paying audience that directly greenlights content—reimagines a studio system in an era of technological and cultural fragmentation. While grounded in faith and “values-based” storytelling, their ambitions and reach extend far beyond traditional religious media: embracing mainstream genres, A-list talent, and aiming to reshape the entertainment landscape itself.

If you’re curious about how storytelling, culture, religion, and business collide in today’s media, this episode is essential listening.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Welcome to another episode of the Mixed Signals podcast from us here at Semaphore Media where we are talking to all the most important and interesting people shaping our new media age. I'm Max Tawny. I'm the media editor here at Semaphore and with me, as always is our editor in chief, Ben Smith. Ben, how many streaming services do you subscribe to?

[C]

Would you say it gotta be like a half dozen?

[B]

Half dozen. What do we got? List em off.

[C]

Netflix, Netflix, Amazon, YouTube, TV, Apple, YouTube, TV, Maps, Hulu, Hulu, Peacock. Peacock.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Oh, gosh.

[B]

Pretty good amount. What about Angel Studios? Are you a subscriber to their guild program?

[C]

Are you a member? I recently joined, funnily enough.

[B]

Did you really? Did you really? Well, well, that's good timing and something that our guests on this week's episode I'm sure will appreciate. That's because we've got the founders of Angel Studios, Neil and Jeff Harmon, their brothers, on the show this week to talk about their very interesting kind of anti Hollywood studio which has seen a lot of success over the last several years. Angel Studios is a values and faith based kind of crowdsourced, new aged digital movie studio studio most famous for making the hit film, the surprise hit film Sound of Freedom several years ago. They also have a host of new movies coming out. They've got this animated Animal Farm with Seth Rogen. They've got a new Ronald Reagan movie with Jeff Daniels. They've got an action comedy coming out with Owen Wilson. Yet they have this really interesting and unique model and Ben has been obsessed with them for a minute. Why did you think that they would be good guests for a show and what are you gonna ask them about?

[C]

Two things. You know, they're both building a really different model for a studio, kind of trying to crowdsource the greenlight process and find a way to take niche faith based filmmaking mainstream. And then also I think they have a good barometer of just American culture, like where are things headed? Is this becoming a more religious, more traditional country? Is it becoming a more secular, more kind of trashier one? I think they're really swimming in those waters and trying to make a business out of it.

[B]

Well, we want to ask them about. It all works. We want to ask them about the growth of faith and values based filmmaking. We want to ask them about independent filmmaking and fragmentation, how that's changing Hollywood and what people are watching. But we have to take a short break. So we'll be right back with Neil and Jeff Harmon after this.

[C]

Our friend Josh Spanier Google's VP of marketing has a new podcast out called Frontier cmo. It's from Think with Google, and it gets into all the ways marketing is shifting, especially in the AI era, where the old marketing playbooks have become obsolete and the whole role of the CMO is being redefined in real time. Josh talks to the people who are actually figuring it out, top CMOs, industry leaders, and creators, and gets into the real world challenges and specific strategies they're using to navigate this new era. These are notes from the marketing Frontier. You can find Frontier CMO on any podcast platform or watch it on YouTube.

[B]

Neil and Jeff, thank you guys so much for being here. Just before kind of we get started, can you explain a little bit what angel is to people who don't know?

[D]

Oh, I'm glad you asked that question. So angel is a response to Hollywood getting out of touch with mainstream audiences, at least from our perspective. So we as founders with young children, we were seeing the stories coming out of Hollywood and they weren't speaking to our values. And so we set out to solve that problem ourselves by asking the audience what they wanted and then giving them what they wanted. And the method by which we did this is we built a community and a technology where we have now over 2 million people who are members of the Angel Guild who have the ability to vote on every film, every episode that comes to angel prior to its release. And the filmmaker needs to achieve a score of at least 70 to be considered being on Angel. As a result of us having this community of people, we're taking care of the audience. They're happy with what we're providing, and we have the highest Rotten Tomatoes audience score in the world. And we're not that worried about what was being made in Hollywood. We were more worried about what wasn't being made and having a voice and a say in what happened in the future and giving a voice to our audience. The Angel Guild.

[B]

You said Hollywood had gotten out of touch, essentially. Did you feel like there was a time when Hollywood was more in touch with the kind of values that you were talking about?

[D]

When we were growing up, we grew up in Idaho. We worked on farms. We only had three TV stations.

[C]

Wait, how old are you?

[D]

I'm 48, but Idaho's kind of like 10, 20 years behind the rest of the world. I mean, we love you, Idaho. I wish I could move back there.

[A]

I think Idaho probably still only has three TV stations,

[D]

but we worked really hard, and our escape would be watching a movie or going out and, like, acting out. Things were in movies like Jeffrey and I both built tree houses after like Swiss Family Robinson. And then we, and we make believed that we were like the Hoth. We were on planet Hoth when the snow, when the snow drifts would come.

[A]

Yeah. Idaho looks a little bit like Planet Hoth during the winter.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So you go out and play and I mean, you could count the number of movies we watched, at least for me, on my fingers in theaters. And they were always dollar show movies back then. You send out the reel of film, it starts in the nice theaters and then it wears out. And as it gets, as the picture quality degrades, then they send it over to the dollar theaters and you watch the degraded film with sticky floor.

[D]

But still it was magical. It was so transporting. To go and experience Aladdin, the Cave of Wonders or Lion King and you know, and, and Mufasa saying, remember who you are. Like those kinds of things definitely tapped into our values. It's one, we started having young kids and raising them in a different generation. When we saw like the really popular shows when, when we were thinking about this were like House of Cards, Game

[A]

of Thrones, very nihilistic.

[D]

Yeah. Like really well told stories. But we said, man, if storytelling is like upstream from culture, if our culture is going to look this way in 20 years, we're not super excited about that prospect. This isn't the kind of thing that we want for our children in terms of society that's that nihilistic. So we want something with more hope but still excellent, like well made, but with some of these values that make society a better place. So in fact, the guild members make a pledge when they vote. They say, I pledge to choose excellent stories that are true, honest, noble, just authentic, lovely or admirable. Those are the values that unite the Angel Guild community around what we're doing.

[C]

Christian is not one of them.

[D]

Christian.

[A]

Yeah, no, that's not. I mean we do faith content better than anybody. We're people of faith. And angel does a better job of distributing faith based content than any studio out there. But that's a subset, that's a natural subset of the values audience that's underserved. There's a much larger values based audience. So you'll see within that pledge you'll see stuff coming to theaters like you see Runner with Owen Wilson and Alan Ritchson and you've got Tommy Lee Jones in the angel and the Bad man and Neil McDonough and Zachary Levi and you have, you have.

[D]

Is it a war epic?

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

There's Kevin James of Rom Com.

[A]

Rom com with Kevin James this year. If you look at the 10 movies going to theaters this year, only one of them is biblical.

[C]

I wanted to ask about sort of a couple of the releases that are coming up because it is, as you say, it's a broad slate with a lot of big names. Can you just talk us through? I just sort of glanced at the Solo Mio materials. It kind of looks to me like a totally classic romantic comedy featuring Kevin James. Ed Sheeran is in there. At a glance, it doesn't say this came from one studio or the other. Particularly like, what makes that more, as you say, more values based than any other romantic comedy being released this year.

[A]

In that specific case, the Guilt. Like, we loved it. We're friends with Kevin. He did an excellent job. The, the elements that you're going to see is it has a lot less profanity in it. Nobody notices this. Nobody even thinks about this. It's good enough. The, the films on angel or the stand up comedians. Like we have a whole show called Dry Bar comedy that has 750 comedians and we say the word, the word, the tagline is funny for everyone because people don't realize that it doesn't have profanity because they're just funny comedians. And so the profanity levels are dialed down significantly in Solo Mio. So, so there's these elements that you're not really noticing, like you said. And you're going to see this throughout all of angel films. You don't really notice what's different that much. And there are a lot of films being released by Hollywood. Like if you look at Godzilla -1, when I watched that movie, I was like, oh, that could have been an angel movie. Not, not necessarily what people might think would be an angel movie. But when you know the Guild and you know what the, the values of this audience are, you can't pin it on a genre. But yeah, you're going to see a little less profanity. You're not going to see nudity in angel movies. You're not going to have sex on screen. There's, there's a lot of elements. You're going to see more family driven values integrated into it because that's what the Guild votes for.

[D]

And interestingly so, the Guild score for Solo Mio was 93. And then the Rotten Tomatoes audience score has hovered between 95 and 96, which is either the number one romantic comedy of all time at 96 or it's tied for it at 95. I mean, to best of my knowledge.

[A]

Yeah. I think it's the number. Number one highest audience score on Rotten Tomatoes for a rom com of all time.

[D]

And that's because this show is made in a way that just speaks to those fundamental values that make society a better place. And it's really well done. It's really well done. Like the cinematography in it. And when we watched it in the theater, people started clapping mid movie. So it's a really fun theatrical experience, and people leave just feeling uplifted.

[B]

How does the audience score work in terms of, like, movies that you guys are thinking about essentially buying? Does the audience has a say in some of the movies that you guys are buying after they've already been made?

[A]

Yeah, Every. Every single movie. We actually can't take a movie into angel if the Guild vetoes it. There's been some movies I wish would have made it through.

[C]

Like, what?

[A]

That just didn't make it. I probably shouldn't. No, I don't. I don't think we're actually. Like, the contract we do with them. We don't.

[C]

Can you give us, like, a generic sense of, like, what. What was your favorite movie they vetoed?

[B]

Not. Not.

[C]

Not specifically, but, like, you know, you know, with plausible deniability here.

[A]

There was a really fun Shark movie that didn't make it. It's. It will end up in theaters at some point. But the. I watched it and I was like, I really like this movie, but it just wasn't there. Wasn't there.

[D]

There was a really great musical that the team was rooting for as well that didn't make it through. So it happens.

[C]

What did the Shark do? Let's talk.

[D]

Let's talk about the Shift.

[A]

I don't.

[D]

So the shift. The Shift is another movie that didn't pass the Guild that we wanted to, and the filmmaker actually went and took it, recut it, found the parts that were confusing, clarified them, and just honed and honed and submitted it 10 times to 10 different samples of the Guild before he got a high enough score to be released on Angel. And that is pretty exciting because his Guild score more than doubled over that process. And the movie now is kind of a cult classic.

[B]

Let's flip the question here. Is there anything that the Guild has approved? You know, crowdsourcing big part of what you guys are doing. Is there anything that the Guild has approved that you've been like, oh, man, that's. I don't know about that one.

[A]

And then. Absolutely.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Which. Which ones?

[D]

Okay, so you're gonna get us into trouble. Like asking us which are our favorite children?

[B]

Which are your favorite children?

[A]

There's difficulty here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is the Guild when you have 2 million people and you can sample them, the truth is in that group. And the question. So I'm the chief content officer, so my job is just to figure out how to pull the truth out. And so we're always trying to figure out how do we, how do we make sure that we're not getting like false positives or false negatives. And so I think that we're 80, 85% of the way there on accuracy. But it's a little bit like self driving cars where you're trying to figure like you're in your Tesla and it's driving itself and then suddenly it just like does something stupid like goes into the middle lane or whatever, if you know what I'm talking about. Like most of the time it's really, really good. But every once in a while and the Guild, because of our just our ability to pull the data properly every once in a while, like I tell people, I say if you get on angel and you just take movies and watch them, the vast, vast majority of the time, like super majority of the time you're going to like what you see and then there's the majority of the time you're going to love what you see and then there's a small percentage of the time that you're just not going to like it because it's not your cup of tea. And and so I came, I was, this was just a couple months ago, there was a movie that passed the Guild and it launched onto angel streaming. And I was watching it and I was like, oh, this is like Hallmarky. It's just not my kind of movie. But it was very Hallmark. And I was like, maybe we need to change the way that we do the scores. And I get home and my wife is watching the movie and she's like, I love this movie. So I was like, oh, that's the reason why I'm not making the decisions.

[C]

It's funny that you mention Hallmark because I think that like listening to you describe angel and if you sort of superficially read about angel, you think, okay, like this is what in broadcast Hallmark was. But like, you hate Hallmark. Tell me the difference.

[A]

I don't. I. Well, we don't shy away from heavy stories they have.

[D]

I mean, you guys watch Sound of Freedom last night, right?

[B]

That movie's never going to show up. Showing up on the Hallmark Channel, I would imagine.

[A]

Honestly, I actually scored in the 90s on the guild.

[B]

I thought in some ways that that wouldn't be a movie that Hollywood would do because, I mean, when you see some of the, you know, the little kid in the room with, you know, the child abusers, it is. It's very disturbing stuff. And in a way, actually, I think some studios, you would imagine wouldn' because they would be like, this is so incredibly disturbing. You know, you might insinuate something, but, you know, you wouldn't put it on screen with a guy closing the windows. And you kind of know what's going on in there. I don't know. I found that to be actually more disturbing than anything that I've seen from a while in a traditional Hollywood film.

[A]

Yeah. And. Yeah, it scored a 90.

[D]

99% on rotten tomatoes.

[A]

Yeah, 99. It is the.

[C]

What are you guys doing with Rotten Tomatoes? What has happened with Rotten Tomatoes? Are you, like, sicing your guild on them?

[A]

No, no, listen, listen.

[B]

I'll follow, I'll follow.

[A]

So Sound of Freedom is the single highest rated audience score blockbuster in the history of Hollywood on Rotten Tomatoes. And we didn't have a guild back then. I mean, we had it. It was called the Jury at the time, but we didn't have it the way it is now. It wasn't big. It was like 10,000 people or something.

[D]

It wasn't productized.

[A]

Yeah, it wasn't productized. It wasn't a big, big thing yet. But if you look at what happens is almost all of our guild, so when you're a member of the guild, you get two movie tickets to every movie. So every guild member that's in the premium section, they get two free movie tickets to every movie. And they can redeem them through our site on Angel. They can actually redeem them using our TV apps. If you're just on the angel app and you're a Guild member, you can select your seats, check out, and get your movie tickets right on your phone or on your tv or on your tv. And so these are not going through Fandango, which means our guild members, when they vote on Rotten Tomatoes, it doesn't even count. So we actually get a disadvantage on Rotten Tomatoes because of all of our core group. They're buying tickets through the angel system.

[D]

But we use Rotten Tomatoes because it's a good proxy. It's the most accurate based on our data. It's the most accurate. It's more accurate than IMDb. IMDb doesn't like rotten Tomatoes, at least verifies that somebody purchased a ticket, they watched the movie on Fandango. So our love group doesn't. Doesn't end up being part of that. Of that group, but it's very accurate data for the general audience versus IMDb, where you can get haters who just come in and they. And they. And they. And they rating bomb your film. And. And it doesn't actually reflect the real audience.

[B]

How much does it cost to be a part of the guild?

[D]

$20 a month to be a premium guild member, and then $12 a month to be a basic guild member.

[B]

And how many. How many people do you guys have in the premium versus the basic?

[D]

So we haven't made that number public, but our premium group is our largest group of the guild. But our total membership is 2.2 million guild members and growing.

[B]

And.

[D]

And so we were 550,000 guild members at the end of 2024, and then. And then we passed 2 million at the end of the year.

[B]

So was there a single event that that led to? That was that sound when Sound of Freedom came out in 2024, Sound of Freedom wasn't a big.

[D]

Sound of Freedom wasn't a big driver of guild memberships. The good news is that guild memberships are coming from lots of titles. We have a few that have really stood out, but the memberships are coming from all over the place. So from new titles that we've released from some back library titles. Homestead was a big driver of guild memberships. David was a big driver of guild memberships. But they're coming from dozens and dozens of titles.

[C]

To talk a little more about the films that are coming to theaters now, curious how you think about distributing a film that you didn't produce. I'm thinking of Animal Farm here. That, like, to me, feels like out on the kind of edge of what somebody might think of a values film. Partly because, you know, Orwell. Orwell was an atheist. And there's a bunch of creators in there who I think specifically are not actors from that. They're actors. Oh, God.

[B]

Actors. Actors.

[C]

We still call them actors.

[B]

Spending too much time with the media. Media folks.

[C]

But we got Seth Rogen, the new media folks, and I actually saw a story on ChurchLeaders.com complaining that you had a trans actor and a gay actor in this thing. How do you think about that?

[A]

We have a policy for all filmmakers. So normally when you go into Hollywood, they look at your resume, they look at your background, and that every decision they make about your film is based on, you know, what have you made before? What are you a part of? When the guild members Vote. They don't have any of that. So they get to watch the movie without knowing who the voice actors are. For example, on King of Kings, the movie King of Kings, which came out at Easter a year ago, it had Mark Hamill. He was one of the voice actors. He's one of the greatest voice actors of all time. And there were a lot of Republican Guild members that, when it passed and we launched the trailers and they realized who was acting in it, were very upset that we would take a movie with Mark Hamill when he's been so opposed to their viewpoints politically. And Mark Hamill's handled like a champ. I mean, he. He actually got on and promoted the film and just ignored them. But. But we definitely get people every once in a while who get upset at some voice actor who took a small part in the film. But what the Guild's voting on is not the resume, not the person behind the screen. They're voting on the story. And that's how we pick movies.

[D]

In fact, we pull credits off when they go into the Guild. So, you know, we haven't ever had a Steven Spielberg submission, but if there was one, we would just remove his name.

[A]

Yeah, because otherwise it would bias.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Wow.

[D]

We'd show the film exactly as it is, and then people would take it for what it is. And with animation, that's even more distinct because you don't ever get to see the faces of who are actually performing behind the.

[C]

You know, that maybe that may be, like, a more radical difference in your production model than the faith stuff is, in a way. Like, I think so much of a film product right now are vehicles for stars. And, like, every film begins with an agent packaging the right director and the right star to the right project. And maybe even, like, the project is like, the third element of that. And I think they do that because they think it sells tickets. Right. Like, everything is a star vehicle.

[A]

There's good statistics on star power and different models, but our model is the audience first. It's the guild the guild gets to veto. So Animal Farm, to your point, it did score 74 in the guild, which is close to the. You know, it's. It's. It passes the threshold, but not like in the 90s. And. And so we would expect, assuming it holds true with all the rest of the films, that we would expect a. A 70s to 87, between 70 and 80 score on rotten Tomatoes with audiences. But we'll see how it works, because there's a pretty big mob around. Like, you think the orthodoxy around the Bible is pretty strong and people get mad when you don't do it the way they want. We found out the Animal Farm is even more orthodox.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

Orwell fans must be more annoying than religious Christians, I'm sure.

[A]

Yeah. So I don't know if they're annoying. We're fine. I mean, our head of theatrical, Brendan Purdy, he always says, yeah, Brendan Purdy, when Sound of Freedom hit and it was just this huge firestorm of press, humongous firestorm. And he just said, jeff, I'd rather be hated than ignored. So let's, let's embrace this and just keep going.

[B]

Well, we have a lot more that we want to get to with Neil and Jeff at Angel Studios, but we have to take short break, so we'll be right back after this.

[C]

In this week's branded segment from Think with Google, I talked to Google's VP of marketing, Josh Spanier, about how tech conferences make the best content. Studios here at Semaphore and in a lot of media, events and live convening are a growing part of our business. It feels like the purpose and the value of events in media has changed. Are you seeing that too, Josh?

[E]

I think we are, Ben. They say content is king and everything seems to be content today. That's what we're seeing inside of Google Marketing. We sponsor events like Coachella and we sponsor events like the Australian Open. And even for the launch of our Pixel Hardware event last year, we had millions and millions of people tune in to watch our live event with Jimmy Fallon as we launched that phone. What we have today is means of distribution. There's something authentic and real and off the cuff about these events in the same way that you and I record these things and we have all the mistakes that we make, people seem to prefer that and seem to like that, and brands that get that, that they're not as polished, that is, not as corporate, actually seem to do better in terms of marketing communications. So these events we're seeing all over the place can be atomized. They can be made longer, they can be made shorter, and actually distributed across YouTube to really great effect. So I think events are going to play an even more central part of all our marketing strategies for the next years to come.

[C]

And where can people learn more about what marketers are doing or can do with events?

[E]

So I actually want to encourage everyone to watch one of our events from Google. Google Marketing Live. You can sign [e-mail] or watch on YouTube is where we will announce all the latest developments in Our ad products, ad solutions, AI transformation to help marketers grow their audiences and put on their own events if need be. Check out googlemarketinglive.com.

[B]

If you look at the names of people that you have, you know, associated with projects that are coming out, I mean, you guys have this Reagan movie that's coming out with Jeff Daniels and Jared Harris and you already mentioned the Owen Wilson movie that you have coming out. J.K. simmons, of course, is in the Reagan. Yes, is also in the Reagan film. I would imagine that these are folks that even though you guys are, you know, humble potato farmers at this point, you've, you've worked with a lot of projects. I mean, even just Animal Farm has the names of a lot of very, very recognizable individuals. Do you find that you guys are starting to know more, like, really get to know more people? And is that changing the business? I mean, it feels like you guys kind of launched this against Hollywood in some ways. But as you mentioned, when I look at a lot of these names, you know, these are folks who are in a lot of pretty mainstream Hollywood productions. And a lot of the films, you know, are essentially indistinguishable.

[A]

Yeah, they're distinguishable to the guild. But the. We are finding friendships with a lot of talent and a lot of craftsmen in Hollywood. And we're learning that as long as the way they see it is they say, look, we may not agree on everything, but we both agree on excellent art. Like, we love art and we want the best films. And what I found, at least in Hollywood, and Alejandro Monteverde, the director of Sound of Freedom, he's coming out with zero AD this Christmas, Beautiful film. But Alejandro said, and you look at the cast on Zero, just huge cast. And, and Alejandro just said filmmakers, by and large, are indifferent. They're actually not super political. They're tribally political, but they're not political. They're not necessarily tribal, even in a religious sense. But they want to make great content, they want to make great art, and if you are a great craftsman, then they want to be a part of it. And if it's pushing nihilism, that's fine as long as it's great art. And if it's pushing a faith concept, as long as it's an incredibly well made movie, they're okay with that. And that's what we're seeing in our relationships, is that there's a mutual respect for the desire to be excellent, even if we don't necessarily. And even within our own company and within the own guild. Not everybody Agrees on everything, as you can see, with the Animal Farm.

[B]

I want to ask one question about. About Sound of Freedom, which I think was one of the biggest movies of that summer, just overall. And that was when you guys were getting so much attention. Obviously, we alluded to it. We talked about it before. It's, you know, there's a child trafficking element, which is quite disturbing. And there was some news coverage around this, making parallels between stuff in the movie to the conspiracy theory. QAnon. There was some coverage at the time about Jim Caviezel, the star of the movie, and, you know, whether he was kind of drawing some parallels between the two things. But I guess the question that I'm most curious about is, I mean, and you guys and the filmmaker have talked about this wasn't in your mind. This was being made before this stuff kind of really blew up. But do you think that you guys benefited from, in some ways, from the popularity of that conspiracy theory? And a lot of people who maybe believed it showed up and watched the movie. Did you guys think that you benefited in any way?

[A]

When there's a wave, when there's a tsunami, sometimes all you can do is just ride it and do the best you can to ride it. You don't really have control over that world. So, yes, the movie did better because there was a lot of buzz around these issues, and some of them have actually turned out, with the more recent Epstein stuff, to have a lot more validity than we even knew at the time.

[D]

Thank goodness for the Angel Guild at the time, or the early version of the Angel Guild. We were able to go directly to the audience and tell them about the story. And then we got a million people into the seats as the movie opened before that controversy hit. So we had people on the left and on the right, all embracing the film, loving the film. And so when the controversy started to hit, it ended up fueling the film because a lot of people were just like, that's not what the film is. I mean, you guys watched it last night. They'd just be like, that's not what it is. And then they'd share it, and it grew. We thought at the time that we were going to do probably 100 million globally. But then when it hit the zeitgeist and the controversy exploded, it did 250 million globally. And that was unexpected and definitely benefited the message of the film. And we're okay with the results because we've been contacted by nonprofits who have said that their cost, like the biggest problem in the child trafficking space was Awareness. And people didn't realize what a problem it was. And so they were able to go and, and get people engaged in solving the problem or addressing the problem at a way greater rate. We had multiple countries, multiple states, multiple laws that were passed to help fight trafficking, to help prosecute trafficking. There were busts that happened as a result of the film. And these results are all positive, but completely outside of our control.

[C]

Another result, not, not of the film, but of that moment, was that people believed in a series of like truly bananas conspiracy theories about kids being shipped in refrigerators and things like that. Or was it furniture, sorry, furniture via Wayfair? I'm not suggesting that you guys caused that in any way, but I am curious, like what you just cause you were, as you say, like kind of in that tsunami. Like what you make of that, because it's obviously the Epstein stuff that is true is incredibly disturbing. And yet there's also simultaneously this kind of. Of fan fictional conspiracy world around it. And, and I don't know, it's just obviously people find child trafficking so unbelievably, appropriately disturbing. I'm just curious what you think about it.

[A]

I think it would be good if, if we could focus on the parts that are true, because my concern would be that the non true stuff takes away from the true stuff. We need to do something about this. Like, I kind of wish Sound of Freedom, the message of Sound of Freedom would just resurface at the moment so that the Epstein stuff could, you know, we could break through that wall somehow. But there's a. That's on a personal level, just, just like the message is there are lots of kids that are being trafficked. And yes, that the kind of trafficking that's shown in Sound of Freedom, which is the more dramatic, represents less than 10% of total trafficking, probably less, more in the 5% world, but it's still real. And even though it's a super minority, but it makes the best movie that type of trafficking. But the awareness around the countless kids around the world that are suffering needs to be expanded. Mira Sivino, who's in the movie, she's been fighting trafficking for years in the UN and she became part of the movie to help fight trafficking. And she called me after the movie and just said, jeff, don't worry about all the conspiracy stuff and all the noise. Let me tell you, this movie has done more for this cause than all of the nonprofits. All of the efforts that I have seen in my entire life combined because of the awareness it's brought to, to

[C]

ask about the business. Now, a couple of questions. When you talk about this scale of the audience for this kind of wholesome movies that do incredibly well in Rotten Tomatoes, it sounds like this ought to be the easiest business in the world. Like you're, you know, you're selling something that people want. But you guys have been at this a while and have had some ups and downs. You declared bankruptcy in 21, and there was a tech, obviously technology piece to that. You then sort of restarted as the studio that you are now. You spake last year. The stock is probably less than a quarter than it was when you launched. Have. As a fellow SPAC survivor, I sympathize. But I'm curious what you have learned because it does seem like this has not been the easiest business in the world.

[D]

I remember being in college and trying to decide whether to invest in a little penny stock or an Apple. And at the time, Apple, like with the reverse splits, Apple was a penny stock back then, right before the ipod was invented and right as they were adopting the Unix operating system. And, you know, every company goes through its journey and it's just part of. Part of how this game is played.

[C]

Any reflections on the SPAC in particular? Was that a mistake?

[D]

So the SPAC was to just speak to it directly. We needed to maintain the mission of angel, and so we chose that vehicle. It was a SPAC in name only. It wasn't a SPAC like traditional SPACs are, where they have a bunch of cash or they have a bunch of hedge funds in them. But what the SPAC did is that the chairman of the spac, who is a Harvard valedictorian, he had failed to acquire a company with the spac. And he said, I love Angel's mission. If you want to reconvert this SPAC into something where you can maintain Angel's mission, we're down with helping you do that. And so we got to set up the board the way that we wanted to. We made sure that we had the super voting shares that we needed to maintain the mission of angel in the public markets. And so it served that purpose. The price drop was due to a lot of factors, but the biggest one probably is that it was a SPAC and people expect SPACs to go down. But as the market sees our three reports, we've only reported twice, that they'll begin to see that we're a real company. And we think that that will take care of itself over time and that the mission will be secure long term.

[C]

A much different question about the mission, because I Think there's a tradition and there's always been a pretty strong niche industry of often specifically religious content or values based content. But really like seen as a niche industry with its own distribution channels, its own kind of direct to consumer business. And it's I think, always been seen as kind of a, kind of a pretty good cottage industry. And yeah, but we're at this moment when there's a lot of discussion of like, is American culture becoming more conservative? And I guess I'm curious if you see yourselves as like fundamentally in a niche business that will, you know, that could reach, I don't know, maybe 5 million consum. But ultimately this is a kind of a small niche of American culture or if you think American culture is kind of coming your way and that as the country, I don't know, moves to the right, that this could be a Disney scale, huge business.

[D]

So just at the outset, let's just make it clear that we fired ourselves from it being our way. Right? That's the way we set up angel is that we're not gonna repeat the way that Hollywood has done it in the past where the executives get to call the shots.

[A]

We gave the keys to the guild

[D]

y to the audience, and now the audience gets to take that where they decide to take it. And all we're going to do is help amplify the very best stuff. Now we set a North Star, right? We set a mission. We set a set of values that we're going to go after. We think those values are as broad of a total addressable market as you could possibly get. Like, they're the most unifying things we could get around media. And so we think that the size and potential of angel is at least 35 times where we are today in the US and then globally, even much, much, much larger.

[A]

A lot has to happen to get there.

[D]

Yeah, tons has to happen to get there. But if you just take our model on its face and say, okay, the filmmakers get paid better if they work with angel, like as they get, they get more of the, of the pie and the audiences are happier, that thing is going to scale. And that's what we intend to do. And we do not think that this is niche. We think it's more mainstream than what's been happening on the coastal cities, right? If California and New York decide what the world entertainment like, what's the zeitgeist, what's cool? They're in their own bubble, right? They have their own things that are important to them. But the rest of the world and the Rest of the audience has things that are important to them. And if we just, just stay close to what the audience is telling us and asking, then we think that that has incredible scale in the future.

[C]

And what are you seeing in terms of, I mean the United States is emerging from this period of this very kind of intense culture wars. I think there's a sense that the culture is becoming maybe like both more politically conservative, but also more secular and trashy in a certain way. At least that's my sense. But I'm curious, like, you know, like there's that old line about like, you know, if you didn't like Christian conservatives, like, wait till you meet the post Christian conservatives. But like, I'm curious what you're just like, really, like, you think a lot about the zeitgeist. You use the word zeitgeist a lot. Like what do you think the zeitgeist is? What are you seeing?

[A]

Definitely there's definitely like a huge resurgence in faith. But you got to understand this is not a, this is like a different. Maybe spirituality is like, it's a different, it's a different generation. Like if you look at Gen Z, there are very, very few atheists. They believe. And as you watch just talking to filmmakers on the dinners and talent, there are so many of them that are speaking openly and saying, I didn't used to be able to talk about my faith and I am a person of faith, but I've just kept it quiet. But it's nice that I can actually. It's refreshing to just be able to discuss things. And I don't think it's, it takes away from the ability to talk about the other side of the other, the, you know, the nihilistic non faith view. I think they're more open than ever too. But I think we're just kind of in this era where people can speak openly and that is generating a tremendous amount of interest in faith right now.

[B]

Last question for you guys before we leave, which is you guys are both brothers. I believe there's a third brother as well who's involved in this with you guys who's not here. What's it like running a business with your brothers? Is it you want to pull your hair out? Has it brought you guys closer together? How does the family dynamic influence how you guys are running the business as brothers?

[A]

I think there's something special that happens and you can see this across business and film. When brothers can figure out how to work together. I mean it doesn't happen often, but when it does or when Siblings can work together. You see some pretty magical things happening. And in film, you can see it with the. With the Disney brothers. You can see it with the Warner brothers. You can see it with the Nolan brothers to some extent. You can see it with the Irwin brothers. What.

[D]

You can see it in music, too. And music sing well together. You know, the Jackson 5.

[A]

And there's a harmony that comes with the Jackson 5, the Osmonds. There's tons of Jonas Brothers. There's so many examples where when brothers work together well, it creates harmony that is intangible. And that's. I think what you're seeing inside of angel is we were raised in a way, and we've learned to. I mean, in our office, one of the things that happens is we talk openly and we have disagreements in the middle of a whole bunch of people. And every once in a while it will get heated. And then there's the new employees who haven't been here very long, who are like, whoa, is the company going to, like, fall apart? And then the older ones are like, no, no, like two hours. They're going to be perfectly fine. But that will happen once a month or something, that there'll be a conflict and then we just resolve it, and you have to learn how to just kind of forgive and let go and just move forward. So it's definitely brought us closer together for sure. But there is some magic and some harmony that comes when it comes to art and siblings being able to work together.

[B]

Yeah. Well, that feels like a great place to leave it. Neil, Jeff, thank you guys so much for doing this. This is a fascinating conversation.

[C]

Yeah. Thank you, guys.

[A]

Thank you.

[D]

Thank you.

[C]

Everyone agrees that marketing is transforming, but there's a massive gap between agreeing on the future and actually building it. Think with Google Bridges, that Gap app. It's the resource for leaders who are done with the what and are ready for the how. Whether you're integrating AI into your workflows or rethinking measurement from the ground up, Think with Google provides the insights that turn strategy into growth. So don't just Talk about the AI opportunity. Operationalize it. Visit thinkwithgoogle.com.

[B]

So, Ben, that was a really interesting interview with Neil and Jeff. I want to start with something that I was curious to know, your reaction in the moment. And sometimes we wait until afterwards to kind of figure out these things, but, I mean, of the 2.5 million or so folks who are regular monthly subscribers to angel, which is providing, I think, a lot of revenue for them, real revenue, they seem to say that they didn't know how many were Christian. I mean, do you think that this is fundamentally, you know, a Christian media business or can it be slightly larger than that as they. As they seem to suggest?

[C]

Yeah, I thought it was pretty interesting that they didn't. That they really aren't trying to be explicitly Christian because there's a lot of religious people in the US who are not Christian and a lot of people, like, I don't know, there's somebody who I. Family member who I won't name, who I watch movies with fairly regularly, who really doesn't like profanity or the level of violence that's just totally routine in streaming and even in shows like the Pit, like popular mainstream shows. And so, you know, you kind of wind up watching BritBox a lot. But I mean, obviously there is demand from people who are coming from a bunch of different places on this. You know, it's interesting, like American culture right now is just incredibly like explicit around sex and violence. Often too explicit for me in pretty mainstream productions.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So it does seem like that's an under. Underexploited market. Although I like that they leaned away from the Hallmark thing because I do think that when you start talking that way, it just sort of like signals that you're gonna do stuff, really dumb stuff.

[B]

Well, that's, that's the other thing too, about separating themselves from something that's like overtly kind of Christian media. There are definitely. You know, I grew up watching cable television and you would see some, you know, kind of faith based programming that was very, it's kind of the after school type material, you know, kind of low budget. And you're never gonna see anything, you know, that wouldn't be suitable to watch in front of your kind of squeamish parents. And I think that there obviously was some market for that, but they've clearly opened the door a little bit to some darkness with, with the kind of stuff that they'll get, which they mentioned with, with Sound of Freedom. But I actually think that it's a really interesting time for them to be launching. And I think it's not a coincidence that as filmmaking has actually gotten cheaper and as quality filmmaking has actually gotten easier to make, it's easier to make a low budget production look really nice with technology and with AI that we are seeing the growth in this kind of, you know, this, this other business that doesn't come out of mainstream Hollywood, but can put together these movies that, you know, for all intents and purposes look like something that you might see in Hollywood.

[C]

Yeah, it's interesting. So I think I asked them if they see it as a niche business or not. But I think the question of what is niche and what isn't niche gets really destabilized by the fact that you can make a movie that looks like it cost $100 million for 10 million. I mean, everything everywhere, all at once. Actually, a different kind of indie track of filmmaking was the first one that struck me that way, like, oh, they're using all these new tools to do special effects that would have taken thousands of those, like pages and pages of Disney animators, you know, in the credits in the old days. And so, yeah, I think I. I think the mov. The business is just changing in all sorts of unpredictable ways.

[B]

Here's the other question that I was curious about to get your perspective on, which is this system that they have, right, this guild system where the millions of people who subscribe have a voice in the types of things that get greenlit. Clearly that maybe seems to be working for them. I mean, they've built this thing around that system. And, you know, even though you mentioned the stock is down from the initial public offering a few years ago, it still seems like it's a lot larger of a business than it was, you know, earlier in this decade. Do you think that traditional Hollywood has something to learn from this kind of crowdsourcing? I mean, Hollywood has dabbled in it, obviously you do. They do a lot of screen tests, focus testing. I remember, you know, in the 2000s, there had, you know, there was the movie Snakes on a Plane and people were like, you know, they were putting stuff into the movie from the Internet, from chat rooms or whatnot. But do you think that traditional Hollywood has something to learn from polling the actual people who want to watch these things?

[C]

Yeah. Traditional Hollywood should not say we focus grouped this movie. They should say we went to our community guild and we asked them what they liked and when. And when 75% of them said they liked it.

[B]

But then is that just branding?

[C]

Then we, then we went with our values. Yeah, I think so. I think it's an incredible story to tell and I'm sure enthusiasts, whatever subset of their community really participate. But also it's an unbelievably brilliant way to rebrand focus groups.

[B]

That's interesting. But as they said, there were some stuff that they wanted to do that they couldn't do and stuff that they had to do that they didn't necessarily want to.

[C]

Yeah. Talk to any Hollywood director and they will tell you about that experience. Usually it means that the guy has to live in the end and marry the girl. Oh, and Max, I was a little, as I expressed on the show, I'm a little skeptical of this Rotten Tomatoes thing. I feel like those systems are always subject to all sorts of gaming. What did you make of that?

[B]

Well, there's a great episode of the Town with Matt Bellany where he talks to an executive from Rotten Tomatoes about this exact topic, and I would encourage our listeners to go and listen to that podcast. I think a lot of our listeners already do listen to that podcast, so they might have already heard the same episode that I'm referring to. But actually, you know, during the break, as we were discussing this, our producer, Josh Billinson, was remarking on the fact that the system works to verify that those viewers are real. And of course, Rotten Tomatoes viewers aren't always necessarily known for having the greatest taste in the world. That doesn't mean that they won't show up for movies.

[C]

Wow. Spoken like a true coastal snob.

[B]

Look, I gotta say it. When it comes to a lot of things, I try to overlook my coastal snobbery, but when it comes to movies, I am very particular and doesn't mean I always like what the critics like. I think a lot of. A lot of times the critics are also equally stupid. I've sat in screening rooms with them as well. But I think Rotten Tomatoes score, critics score. Make your own mind up about whether a movie is good or not.

[C]

All right, will do.

[B]

Well, that is it for us this week. Thank you so much for listening to another episode of the Mixed Signals podcast from us here at Semaphore Media. Our show is produced by Josh Billenson and Manny Fadal, with special thanks to Anna Pizzino, Jules Zern, Rachel Oppenheim, Tori Kaur, Garrett Wiley, and Daniel Haft. Our engineer is Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by the great Steve Bone. Our public editor is, of course, the Angel Studios Guild. Let us know if you want us to greenlight this podcast or. Or maybe send it to the to the Bins of History.

[C]

And if you like the show, please just subscribe to us on YouTube or follow us wherever you get your podcasts.

[B]

And if you want more, you can always sign up for Semaphore's Media newsletter, which is out every Sunday night.