← Mixed Signals from Semafor Media
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- [00:08]
A
Welcome to Mixed Signals from Semaphore Media, where we are talking to the most important people who are shaping our new media age. I'm Max Tawny, media editor here at Semaphore, and of course, with me, as always, is our editor in chief, Ben Smith.
- [00:24]
B
Hey, Max.
- [00:25]
A
Ben. You know I'm thrilled to do every episode of the show. It's a real privilege to do it alongside you. But this week I'm particularly excited because we have the writer and director Ari Aster on the show. He is the filmmaker behind the hit films Midsommar and Hereditary. And he has a new film out today called Eddington, which stars Joaquin Phoenix and Pedro Pascal, who went to my high school, by the way, and Emma Stone, among others. We'll talk to him about why after it feels like we finally left the pandemic behind, he decided to make a movie about it, how his experience being on Twitter influenced his new movie, and why he decided to turn down a chance to make a Marvel film.
- [01:04]
B
Yeah, occurs to me he's made a lot of horror and this one is kind of a horror movie about the media.
- [01:08]
A
Oh, my God. The scariest yet. Well, we'll be right back with Ari Aster and a lot more right after the break.
- [01:20]
B
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- [01:52]
A
So, Ben, previous listeners of mixed signals, longtime mixed signals heads, remember that there was another host of the show before I was here, Naima, who we love. And one of the things that Naima was really interested in was COVID 19. But she was interested in exploring it in the way that it was still kind of rippling through people's lives, which is not something that I really wanted to think much about when we were. When we were starting to launch the show.
- [02:17]
B
We're more denial guys.
- [02:19]
A
Yeah, exactly. I kind of wanted to move way beyond that, but I actually think that that was something that she was. She was right about the fact that Covid was still continuing to impact our lives and had changed society and culture and our politics in some pretty profound ways. And, you know, one of the things that I was thinking after last week's episode with Dr. Mu Mike, which was a lot about COVID and preparing for this episode was, you know, it is true that we all went through this profoundly interesting and kind of traumatic global experience together, something that none of us had ever had ever been through. And we've kind of spent our time fumbling around through that. And the episode today is in some ways related to that because we have on the director Ari Aster, who has a new film set during COVID called Eddington. It is a western sort of surreal thriller horror movie starring Joaquin Phoenix as a local sheriff, Pedro Pascal as a mayor running for re election, and then also in kind of more minor but definitely interesting roles. Emma Stone plays Joaquin Phoenix's somewhat unhappy wife, and Austin Butler is in it, as well as this kind of televangelist for the digital media age. Kind of a Alex Jones meets some sort of hillsong preacher for YouTube. Did I kind of get that right? Does that sound right?
- [03:44]
B
You nailed it.
- [03:46]
A
So, Ben, we both watched this new movie by Ari Aster, fantastic filmmaker who made Midsommar, who made Beau is Afraid, who made the horror movie Hereditary, which I'm too scared to see. But what did you think about this, this new movie that's coming out that actually drops today, the day that this. This episode is publishing about COVID What'd you think of it? Yeah, I mean, I think, you know.
- [04:06]
B
Fascinating film, I guess. You know, I think it ra to two big questions that listeners of this show are gonna be interested in. One is, is anybody gonna wanna consume a piece of art about COVID Like, you know, I think it's noticeable, like, there are no TV shows where the people are wearing masks. Right. But the second and more relevant here is essentially like, which is worse, COVID 19 or the media? Like, those are the two really bad things in Eddington. You know, the pandemic, which is the backdrop, and then this new media scourge that is its own kind of pandemic and really kind of destroys the characters in the film.
- [04:41]
A
Yeah, you know, it's funny. Ari Astra is known for making kind of these horror thriller movies about the various evils of humanity and these kind of dark, scary monsters. And the thing that I was thinking is that the true horror of this movie is like, Instagram reels and how YouTube warps your mind. Like, the media is the real evil corroding society. And that's actually the reason why we want. One of the reasons why we wanted to have Ari on the show and why I was so, you know, I lobbied so hard for this gu. Because, you know, the movie is set during COVID but I think the movie is using Covid as the backdrop to explore something that actually existed before and has kind of evolved, which is the ways in which fragmentation and the information that we get, the different information silos that we live in now, are changing the ways that we interact with our neighbors and other people in our community. It creates this really interesting dynamic where people are all living in their own little realities, existing in this small town together, but the realities they're living in are very, very different.
- [05:45]
B
Yeah. And the film takes the viewer from this kind of down home story of this small New Mexico town dealing with its local problems and saying. And at one point, the sheriff, the main character, notes that although these big national problems, they're not problems here, these are far away. And then takes you to a point where the town becomes consumed with them. And I think one of the characters says that we're living in history now. And I think that's this kind of familiar experience.
- [06:10]
A
And it's interesting to me too, because it's in one way the movie is. It's playing in this old kind of trope of the Hollywood Western, which is you use the simple format of a western to tell a bigger story about America. Right. Like, that was like a theme of something like the Searchers or some of these other, you know, classic Hollywood movies like High Noon, which was, you know, an allegory for other things going on in the country. But in many ways, I found a lot of the scenes to be. Even though they exist in this kind of fantastic big universe, I found them to be very, very close to home. You know, I was remembering the tension of, you know, having to line up six feet apart. And some people are clearly more freaked out about things and Covid than other people. And reliving that in kind of granular, painful detail is, was, was, was really an experience. I don't know if it's going to be bringing out the, you know, making the big summer box office dollars, but that's also that we want to ask him about.
- [07:11]
B
That's right. Let's bring Ari on.
- [07:15]
A
Ari, thank you so much for doing this. Wanted to kind of first start out by asking, you know, you decided to make a movie set during COVID but you'd had the script lying around since years before that. What was the genesis of this idea? And why did you feel like it was important to return to now? And also, obviously, the pandemic hadn't happened at that point. What changed in the script?
- [07:40]
C
Well, you know, it's kind of not right to say that this script existed. Really before 2020, I had written a script that was set in New Mexico, which is where I'm from. I grew up there. My family still lives there. And it was, you know, something of a contemporary Western that revolved around, like, a feud between two people, and one of them was a sheriff. That's it. So in, you know, May, June 2020, I was living in hell like the rest of us, and I thought I ought to make a movie about this. And it was really just the framework of a western that suddenly felt like, oh, this is. I could really hang all of this stuff on that. And so, yeah, that was the genesis of it was, you know, me just kind of feeling something in the air that was familiar but also distinct. Like, you know, it's like I'm living in the same world, but it's gotten worse and it's gotten more intense. And I feel like whatever link I had to hold on to, you know, whatever, like, old world there was before we all started living in the Internet, which I guess began whenever we, you know, were able to start carrying the Internet on our person. It felt like that had been cut permanently that year.
- [09:07]
B
You know, I think we mostly do want to talk about living inside the Internet, but you say you sort of had this impulse basically to make art about COVID And, you know, you say that like it's normal, but actually, that's. Almost nobody else has.
- [09:20]
A
Most people ran away from that.
- [09:21]
B
Yeah. And I mean, kind of imagining when you come to a 24 with this idea and you say it's set during COVID do they not just run the other way? Like, I can't think of another show produced in which the characters wear masks.
- [09:33]
C
Well, I'm. I guess I'm surprised that so few people have done this. I. I kind of figured that I was one of many while I was doing it, especially when I first started writing it, I think. I mean, I remember everybody talking about, like, geez, like, it's gonna be. Hollywood is gonna be lousy with nightmare Covid projects. Like, you know, it's gonna be terrible. And so, you know, I would say for me, this moment is so weird, right? It is like, everything is so strange, and the human capacity for adaptation is amazing. So it all becomes kind of normalized, you know, as it becomes wallpaper, you know, and, like, ambient. But I guess part of the project is just to kind of keep reminding the viewer, like, this is fucking weird.
- [10:22]
A
Right?
- [10:23]
C
And the film is kind of about a Bunch of, like, burgeoning cyborgs. You know what I mean? Like, it's all.
- [10:29]
A
Yeah.
- [10:30]
C
It's also about an AI data center being built just outside of town. And there's another way of looking at the film as, you know, I mean, all of the stories and all of the characters in Eddington are really just from one perspective, training data. The movie Eddington is training data. And, you know, it's. And so, you know, it's a film about people navigating a crisis while another crisis incubates over here. But then, just to go back to your question, you know, why are there not more movies about COVID or this moment? I think that that is because we haven't metabolized what happened in 2020. And I think that's because we're still living through it, I guess.
- [11:15]
B
I mean, you know, there's no. I think there's no cultural memory of the Spanish flu. Might just be denial wins. I don't know. We'll see.
- [11:22]
C
Or distraction wins.
- [11:23]
A
Right? Yeah, but it's really interesting, you know, Covid is really kind of the setting for what's happening and kind of like the gen of a lot of this stuff. But it feels to me like as I was watching the movie, one of the bigger themes and one of the things that we're still living with and we're continuing to kind of move deeper into is the fact that you have all of these characters who are bouncing off each other, who are all living in their phones and who are getting a very distinct experience through their phone that is very different than their neighbors or, you know, the other people who they're engaging with because, you know, their algorithm is different. You have a character who is getting just Black Lives Matter content. You have somebody else who is getting weird conspiracy, right wing online, Alex Jonesy type of stuff. Everybody's algorithm is so different. You have Fox News, you have some Tucker Carlson that's in there. You know, as well as you were creating this media atmosphere, you know, you. You mentioned that, and you said this to Bill Hader as well on the 824 podcast, that you wanted to create the experience of living in the Internet. I'm really curious, you know, what do you think the role is that media plays in this film?
- [12:28]
C
Well, you know, the film is about a bunch of people who are kind of fortressed off, right? And I was trying to kind of capture the environment of, like, this, you know, hyper individualism. And ultimately, every character in this film is somebody who really cares about the world and knows deep down in their bones that something is really wrong. They just all are living in different realities and they disagree on what that thing is, and they're unreachable to each other. It's about what happens when, you know, these people who are in different bubbles of certainty start bumping up against each other and how that creates this new logic that grows and kind of comes to possess them all and pushes them deeper into their convictions and into their paranoia and, you know, and how that leads to violence because there's nothing in the air to hold them together anymore. And so that's the idea.
- [13:27]
B
A lot of your world and our world, the Hollywood media worlds were like fully in one of those bubbles, which was the Black Lives Matter protests. Did you experience. How did you experience that? Did you think, I'm in an insane social media bubble or did you think I should get out there into the streets?
- [13:43]
C
Well, you know, it's complicated. I see myself in the kids in this movie, right? I. I saw the video of what happened to George Floyd, his murder, and I was activated and disgusted. But then at the same time, there was this intense pressure to be very visible in my response. I found that kind of the dissonance there, right, to be very interesting. And just, you know, the whole movie is about kind of tribalism in that sense as well, you know, but absolutely that I was very much a part of that and was, you know, navigating it and trying to do it right, you know, part of the movie.
- [14:35]
A
There's a lot of stuff about characters looking at their phones and engaging with that kind of content, watching videos on their phones, whatever, and it's integrated pretty seamlessly into a lot of the scenes. But then you have kind of these, what feel to me like comedic moments where you have just these montage of types of media. And I don't want to spoil anything, but, you know, you have these montages of like TikToks being kind of scrolled or, you know, Instagram reels being played. I'm really curious, were you seeing a lot of this type of media at the time? Did you go back and like, watch some of it, talk a little bit about the process of putting together that world? I mean, a lot of it too is like, some of it is on the left, but a lot of it is kind of this right wing media ecosystem as well. Walk us through that.
- [15:13]
C
Well, you know, this is basically the movie that Twitter wrote. You know, I was, oh, God, you shouldn't go telling people that, look, I'm off now. But I was living on Twitter in 2020, I wasn't posting, but I was addicted. I didn't realize how agitated I was by. Was driving me insane. And I think at some point I did realize it. And that's probably, you know, that was like, a large part of the impetus for this film. You know, I was getting ready to make Beau was afraid. So that was my. That was, you know, what was front of mind. But when I realized in late May, early June 2020, like, I. I want to make a movie about this, and I, like, need to, like, grab this now, because I. It's going to be a period piece and it's going to be set right now. And I knew that that was almost the only way to make something that's, like, inflected by this, like, modern realism and is, like, about right now is you. You had to just take a week and then, like, that's it, right? So whatever else happens and whatever the headlines are going forward, like, it doesn't matter. It's like, it's set during this week. So I spent a good amount of that time just, like, slapping everything down on paper, you know, scrolling a lot and taking screenshots of things that felt like, yeah, this represents whatever this moment is or, like, whatever this culture feels like, you know, which is horrible. Just, like, just total garbage. And then I. And then I went to. I created different profiles on Twitter and I got myself into different algorithms, and I started taking screenshots of those. And so that was a big part of this. Just, like, I need to get as broad a picture of this as I can.
- [16:54]
A
Did that change your perspective at all? Were you like, oh, my God, the algorithm is showing my algorithm me. Ari is showing me one specific thing. To look into the world through the eyes of this other person. Was. What was that? I mean, what was that experience like? Was it surprising?
- [17:09]
C
It just. If anything, it was just. It told me what I already knew, but it was more alarming than I expected. And I found that the deeper I went on any given one and, you know, depending on what you're clicking on and what you're liking, the more kind of, like, irretrievable you are. So it was no surprise, but it was, you know, disturbing.
- [17:31]
B
Did it make you more sympathetic to people who saw the pandemic in, like, I don't know if you live in New Mexico, but you must be in LA a lot. And, like, in a less LA way, like, I found I was struck by. In the opening of the film, you sort of relate to the guy who's annoyed to have to Wear a mask, and you find the mask, the people who want a mask, kind of annoying. Like, I think that was. That felt like that was in the film. Maybe I'm projecting, but, like, did you. I don't know, did you get some empathy for people coming from a different political place, or did it just make you hate everyone?
- [18:02]
C
Well, you know, part of the project here was to be as empathetic as I could be towards everybody. It was very important to me that I understood all these characters and that the film be empathetic. It's just empathetic in multiple directions. And some of those are oppositional. And so, you know, I mean, a big part of preparation for this project and just the writing of the script was me going back out to New Mexico, driving around the state, going to different counties, talking to sheriffs, going to small towns and talking to mayors and police chiefs and public officials, going to pueblos and just getting as broad a picture of the political climate there as possible and talking to them all about their experience in 2020. And it was very interesting. And I liked all of these people. And, you know, look, I'm. I'm on the left, but at the time of doing this research, Biden was president. The governor of New Mexico was kind of a figure of controversy, still is. And, you know, and she was a Democrat. And I found that, you know, a lot of the Democrats I was speaking to were giving me, like, talking points. They were very kind of like, just dismissive of anything that contradicted those. And a lot of the people I was meeting in these small towns, like, you know, who were more conservative, they were really upset and really angry, and a lot of what they were convinced was happening I'm skeptical of. But they had really passionately held convictions. And I actually found them to be, in some ways, just, like, more just on a human level, more interesting. Right. And so that also informed this, that it's, you know, it's like, I don't want to be judgmental here. The film is a satire, but at the same time, I want these people to be, you know, flesh and blood and, like, real. And I. By the time I was making the film, like, you know, they were real, and a lot of them were modeled on people that I got to know, you know, so it got away from me in a way that I think was absolutely necessary if the film was gonna work in any way.
- [20:05]
A
It's really interesting. Last week, actually, on our podcast, we had on Dr. Mike, who is this very famous YouTube doctor, is the only way to describe him he's got like 14 million followers.
- [20:15]
B
We should include extremely handsome, probably.
- [20:17]
A
Yes, A very hot. Yes, not for being very hot, but also for giving medical advice. He was reflecting a little bit and he's, you know, a pretty progressive liberal guy. And he was talking a little bit about the same kind of disconnect, which was, you know, this idea that one of the ways in which the medical community that he was a part of and some kind of senior medical figures, one of the places where they fell short was sticking to these talking points, not, not recognizing the kind of anguish and the unsettled nature of what was going on and not understanding that people were really conf. It wasn't easy to navigate. You know, he singled out how, you know, the CDC had said don't gather on Thanksgiving. And that just wasn't something that people were gonna do and that there were other things that we could have done to embrace people's kind of humanity while also keeping people safe.
- [21:03]
C
Yeah, there's a tendency to just dehumanize people who you don't agree with. But you know, I think it's important right now, given the atmosphere we live in, where we are being pumped 247 full of messaging and a lot of people's hearts and minds are being poisoned. You know, it's very important, I think, especially if you're gonna make a project like this, to do something that tries to hold up a mirror to yourself and that also tries to see the humanity and the people you maybe disagree with. Because we're all subject to the same forces. Yeah, we're all in the same situation.
- [21:42]
A
Well, we need to take a short break, but we'll be right back with Ari Asteroid right after this.
- [21:54]
B
This week on our branded segment from Think with Google, the first of a three part series with Google's VP of marketing, Josh Spanier, about how modern marketing is more than AI. We and everybody else these days spend a lot of time talking about AI. I've been informed marketing is not solely AI. And so Josh and I in a short three part series are going to talk through what marketing actually is beyond that. And Josh, where does this all begin?
- [22:19]
D
So, Ben, marketing really isn't that complicated. Inside of Google we have this mantra we use. Know the magic, know the user, connect the two. It's a mantra which helps guide us in how we approach things to really make sure that we understand our products to the deepest possible level. That's knowing the magic of Google's products. Then we have to know the user. We have to understand our customers and potential. Customers, customers, what are their needs, what are their desires, what are they trying to do in their lives? And then we just have to connect the two. That's what all marketing really boils down to.
- [22:52]
B
I think I've actually heard some version of that from your CMO as well. So how do you do it?
- [22:56]
D
Well, the starting point for any brand is understanding who you are and your brand values and how you want to show up in the world once you've done that. There are three things that I think real modern marketers are really focused on on right now. The first is really building out what you might call a content library. So brands need to move fast in a modern marketing world. We need to show up on all sorts of different surfaces within our products, in advertising spaces, at events, with partners, paid, owned and earned surfaces. That really means we need to do the pre work, we need to build our logos, we need to build our taglines, we need to build assets for for all the myriad of surfaces where we need to show up fast and dynamically using different creative, different formats, different lengths all the time. So building a really strong asset library really just means having the fundamental pieces of your brand ready to go so you can dial up and dial down when the need comes, whatever that is moving at the speed of modern marketing today. Second, you need to unlock your first party data. Data insights drive marketing and every marketer has a resource that is rarely tapped. Well, it's their first party data. How people are using our products, what they're thinking, how they're interacting with it. You take that data, you uncover insights and then you feed it into Google services to find better targeting, better optimization, better creative to drive business outcomes. Unlocking your first party data is the differentiator between just buying ads and actually having ads which resonate and connect with your customers. Third, you need a modern measurement approach that really comes down to proof. You need to be able to prove as much as you can to your business partners, your internal stakeholders, that the marketing dollars you're investing are actually driving business outcomes. You organize your first party data, you have your asset library and then you can predict using sophisticated Google technologies, how your business is going to perform by using a different mix of tactics and channels and surfaces within your marketing plan. When you can do that, you become a partner to the CFO because you can actually make choices about investment and return versus just running ads and hoping, spray and pray that something good will happen. But the combination of these three things, building your asset libraries so you can be flexible and adaptable and dynamic, being Powered by insights driven from your own data and actually be able to predict what the business is going to do when you make these activities is really the fundamental part of modern marketing today.
- [25:33]
B
There you have it. The first of our three part series on the theme that modern marketing is more than just AI. Where can people learn more if they've got questions?
- [25:42]
D
Well, you can head on over to thinkwithgoogle.com to uncover a whole slew of articles and resources, including ironically, the Google Ads, AI essentials. We can never get that far away from AI right now.
- [25:53]
B
Ben. Thanks, Josh.
- [26:05]
A
I was reading a list that you did for GQ about the five movies that influenced the making of Eddington and one of them was jfk, which I thought was so interesting. You made this point that you want to kind of capture the mania of the movie and how you thought it was really interesting because in that movie Kevin Costner's character, Jim Garrison is the hero of the movie when in the reality he was obviously a much more a mixed figure and people thought he was kind of a quack. And that you said you gave him a great quote where you said something along the lines of that we're a country of Jim Garrison's now. And I was reflecting back on that interview this week as we've been. Ben and I have been writing about and covering and talking to people in the media and the administration about this Epstein situation and how it's splintering this conservative right movement that had really been invested in the kind of conspiracy theory. The mania that you captured in the movie kind of really seems to be reflected and actually like playing out right now as we see it with, you know, the White House and this kind of interesting mix of kind of conservative media figures that were obsessed with Epstein and part of Trump's movement and now feel a little bit alienated.
- [27:12]
C
Yeah, well, I mean, look, these conspiracies have like just, just permeated the atmosphere. There are too many to deal with. That seems to be the central one. And I think there are echoes of that in Eddington, especially with the Austin Butler character. But yeah, I mean, JFK I do find to be a really fascinating and kind of important film and it's been widely dismissed and discredited. It's a rat king of different conspiracy theories, some of which contradict each other, you know, and Jim Garrison is considered to be a charlatan by, you know, many. But for me, that actually almost helps the film because where the film is valuable, I think is in the way that it captures the fever of conspiracy Thinking. And I think we're. And it really feels to me like ahead of its time in a way, despite the fact that even then in the 90s, it's looking back, right. But even the language that, you know, you see being used on the right a lot, it's borrowed from that, like, 1960s left wing conspiracy rhetoric. It's like, it's all. It's. It's.
- [28:28]
A
It.
- [28:28]
C
That's how. That's kind of what's so insidious about this, is that it's all been like, we're living in, like, this, like, distortion of, like, history. And we're living in a time where we're, like, oversaturated with history. The Internet has kind of flattened everything. There's just no, like, nobody knows what's going on. There's no contending with anything. And so one other way that JFK is very useful is the way that it does bathe Jim Garrison in this heroic light. And I think that's a very important part of this, is that the people who are uncovering these conspiracies are heroic. They're doing heroic work. Like, that's what's driving it, you know, is, like, is, you know, I need to bring light to something that has been buried, that people are being lied to. And it comes from the absolute certainty that we're being lied to, which, of course, we are. And so at that point, it's just, once you've decided that, where do you go?
- [29:35]
B
I mean, the film really does have an incredibly dark vision, fundamentally. And actually, one of the things I thought about afterward was, why isn't there more political violence? Like, maybe. Maybe we're not that bad?
- [29:46]
C
Well, you know, it's a good question. And all I know is that there is political violence and that none of the people in power seem to have any interest in tamping the rhetoric or the fever that is leading to it. So, you know, when I started writing this in 2020, it's because I felt that we had reached a boiling point, and I felt violence coming. And I didn't know if it was gonna happen tomorrow or five years. But it's like, if we stay on this path, if this continues like it's coming, it's in my bones. I feel it. And I wrote the film in a state of anxiety and dread, and that dread has only gotten worse. Like, you know, it's. And of course, you know, I made the film while Biden was president, and it's being released into a different world right now.
- [30:48]
A
Yeah. One of the things that you you mentioned this a little bit earlier, but one of the points of dread that the film has kind of looming over it. One of the threats that's kind of looming over it is AI, and it starts out with this data center being built. AI and data are a big theme of the movie, even though they're kind of the next threat, not necessarily the past one. I'm curious what you think as a. You know, as a. As a filmmaker, what you think the role of AI is in filmmaking today. Do you use AI at all? When is it useful? When do you think it's inappropriate? How are you thinking about AI?
- [31:22]
C
I think that AI in almost every sector is, like, just too big to fail. And so it's coming. I've been resistant to it and am, you know, taking as long as I can before. Or having to really employ it. But, you know, it's this thing where I just. Look, I spent my life, like, you know, learning how to be an image maker. And for me, you know, like, I have memories of going to films and being in awe of what I was seeing. And that's what drove me, you know, in wanting to be a filmmaker. And I feel like I'm seeing just awe being. Just disappearing. Especially as, like, these images can just be be made in an instant. And I found the AI generated imagery when it first started appearing to be very interesting and startling and frightening because it was essentially hallucinating and the images were depraved and insane. And I was like, oh, this is what you think of us? It's amazing and scary. And now it's become so much more uncanny to me because it's not uncanny anymore anymore. It looks real. And that's really dangerous. You know, like, this is the end of video, audio evidence. We're at the advent of, like, a new kind of, like, fraud that is very hard to discredit. But at the same time, we already are living in an age of, like, total distrust. And this is about to get so much worse. So, you know, I. In some ways, I think, you know, like, the best thing to do right now is find a way to adapt.
- [33:03]
A
Yeah.
- [33:04]
C
Because it's coming. But I didn't ask for it. Like, you know, like, who.
- [33:08]
B
What?
- [33:08]
C
You know, did you. Like, I. I don't know, like, who. Even the people who are ushering it in, like, you know, they're kind of cleaning their hands by saying, like, look, we warned you. We're telling you, like, this could end the world. Like, it's gonna take away your jobs. Like, don't say we didn't tell you. It's like. Yeah, but. Okay, I mean, great, thanks. I don't know.
- [33:25]
A
Right?
- [33:26]
C
So I don't know. The state of things is, like, so alarming right now. And I also just see AI as something that will accelerate everything. It's just. It's going to automate things further and make automation much faster and make it so ultimately, like, you know, I wish we would just find like, a path that didn't scare the shit out of me before AI, like, you know, became applied to everything.
- [33:52]
A
It is true. I mean, Ben, maybe you remember this too as. Cause you were making your kind of career in media as this kind of moment was happening. But the previous era of the Internet and digital media, there was this utopian idea that, like, okay, the Internet is a great tool for disseminating information that will, you know, allow people who are living repressed regimes to access information outside and maybe they'll rebel against, you know, whatever was going on.
- [34:17]
B
It's true. It happened.
- [34:18]
A
Yeah, it did. I mean, Twitter's role in the Arab Spring and whatnot. But obviously, you know, obviously that utopian vision was. Was complicated, but there was a utopian theory of the case with AI. There's. There really isn't. Right?
- [34:29]
C
No, you're right.
- [34:30]
A
I mean.
- [34:30]
C
Yeah, I always think about the utopian ideal of the Internet and how, like, it took only so long for it to fall into corporate interests and become, you know, and everything became commodified and now it's this like, hellscape. But I. But I.
- [34:44]
B
It's a little harsh.
- [34:45]
C
Well, is it?
- [34:47]
A
I don't know.
- [34:48]
B
At least we have podcasts.
- [34:50]
C
Yeah, it's true. At least we have podcasts.
- [34:52]
B
You know, it's funny though, like, we did. I mean, I'm very much of the utopian Internet generation and. And God forbid you didn't want any commerce on the Internet and become corporate. But it is interesting. I mean, and everybody thought it would be a fundamentally. And social media would be a tool of, you know, to fight the power. And it really became a tool of power. I mean, maybe the reverse will be true of AI. I think everyone sees it accurately as like an incredibly powerful tool for authoritarians, but maybe it'll. Maybe it'll wind up being the reverse. Yeah.
- [35:17]
C
As long as Mecca Hitler doesn't end up being the most. The most influential.
- [35:22]
A
Yeah.
- [35:23]
C
I mean, you know, I. OpenAI was a nonprofit. Right. I mean, and then anthropic was then they were going to be the ones who were policing OpenAI and, you know, a big part of the research going into AI right now is alignment research. Right. Making sure that these systems align with human values. So I just have a question. What are human values?
- [35:51]
B
Yeah. When you figure that out, please let us know.
- [35:54]
C
Yeah. What are they? And whose values are we talking about?
- [35:57]
B
We should not train these AIs on Eddington. They'll have a dark sense of human values. Are you going to do. Are you working on any AI projects? You know, films about it?
- [36:06]
C
It's very much on my mind, and I do consider Eddington to be part of that sneakily, an AI project.
- [36:14]
B
This Hollywood moment in particular seems like. I mean, Bella Bajaria has that line about only wanting gourmet cheeseburgers, which you may have seen. But it's definitely a moment of dumb, fun stuff that is sometimes very, very highly produced and dressed up, but kind of fundamentally unambitious. And I'm curious how you think about this moment. That's obviously not your instinct.
- [36:36]
C
I am bored by a lot of what I'm seeing, and a lot of it feels rote, and a lot of it feels safe, and a lot of it feels regurgitated and recycled. And then I'm also seeing things that I think are great and exciting, and sometimes those are success and sometimes they're not. But I have noticed that fewer and fewer films are considered home runs, and that includes Marvel movies, superhero films. And I find that to be. Hopefully that will lead to more adventurous decision making. Because if the film that you're only doing because it's gonna. To make a lot of money, but, you know, but your heart isn't in it, if those aren't doing well, maybe, you know, maybe there's more room for risk taking.
- [37:34]
A
Yeah, you're more likely to take a risk. The only one that seems to be a home run these days is Jurassic Park. I can't believe they keep making those movies. They're really bad and yet they are like. They are. They do insane numbers. We have to ask about one. And if. And if this ends up not being true, we'll cut it out. But we. As we were preparing for this interview, I was talking to somebody and somebody was like, oh, actually, you gotta ask Ari. Like, I heard this rumor that they asked him at one point to do a Marvel movie. Did they ever ask you? Did Marvel ever ask you to do something?
- [38:02]
C
Yes, once.
- [38:04]
A
What was it?
- [38:05]
C
Oh, really? Well, I don't know. I. I feel like I shouldn't say, should I?
- [38:11]
B
Yeah, of course you should.
- [38:12]
C
I was asked to do more. Is it Mobius? Morbius.
- [38:17]
A
Morbius. Oh, Morge, that would have been awesome if you did it, though. It was a huge flop. I think that would have been amazing if you did it though. That would have been incredible.
- [38:24]
C
Yeah, we could have added it to my list of.
- [38:29]
A
Exactly. You know, you started your career kind of during the streaming era at this moment of kind of peak disruption in Hollywood. If you'd had your. If you'd had your career 20 years ago, it would have looked a lot different. Not only are we seeing kind of the disruption of the business, but also people's attention has changed too. It used to be the biggest thing that existed in media was movies, right. The movie star was the biggest type of celebrity you could be now, you know, younger people, we've talked about Ben's kids a lot on the show and what they are consuming. You know, they don't distinguish as much between a movie star and an influencer or a TikTok star or something like that. I talk to all these executives who refer to shows as just TikToks now, like four minute long kind of things. I'm really curious how you're navigating this moment of major change at the industry, thinking about your own career. Like, how are you kind of navigating the changes in taste and the changes in what people are interested in and how are you thinking about it?
- [39:30]
C
I am trying to keep my antenna up and be just present in the world as it is right now, which is harder and harder to do because it's an increasingly unpleasant place. But I do think that there's a tendency to retreat and fall into either nostalgia or like past trauma instead of looking at the moment and especially even like imagining the future.
- [39:58]
B
Right.
- [39:59]
C
And I think. And it's hard to. I think there's not a lot of belief in the future right now. And I'm really desperate for, like, new ideas, for like a new idea of what the future could be as opposed to the one that is being projected right now that we seem to be moving towards. Which, you know, like, it feels like we're living through a failed experiment that failed a long time ago. But instead of it being slowed down, it feels like jetpacks are being strapped to it. And just to bring it back to Eddington, maybe there can be some. If there's anything hopeful in the film. Cause I've heard it be called nihilistic. And I don't think it is nihilistic. And I think part of that is because it's a period piece, right? So it's set five years ago. And maybe there could be some solidarity and some opportunity to sit in a room with each other and. And see maybe a little bit more clearly how we were, and then maybe that'll give us a little bit more objectivity on how we are and the path that we're still on and, you know, whether we want to stay on this path and, you know, how do we get off and is there a way to, like, re. Engage with each other? Because we are completely siloed off and, you know, I don't see how we can move out of this without. Without that.
- [41:13]
A
Yeah, well, I think, you know, movies like yours and obviously very important, equally important podcasts like this one are very much about that theme. So, Ari, we really appreciate you taking the time to do this today.
- [41:27]
C
Well, thank you.
- [41:27]
B
And thanks for the film.
- [41:29]
C
Yeah, thank you. And just because I ended on kind of a lofty human plea, it's also supposed to be fun. The movie's supposed to be funny.
- [41:39]
A
The theater was laughing. The theater that I was in was cracking up. I was laughing. I thought it was fucking hilarious. I loved it.
- [41:45]
B
Good.
- [41:46]
C
Go to Eddington and have a good time.
- [41:48]
A
That's right. That's right.
- [41:50]
B
Seconded. Thanks, Ari.
- [41:51]
C
Thanks, guys.
- [42:02]
B
In our show about media, our ads are, fittingly enough, about advertising. As we explore on the show, media and marketing alike are changing at a breakneck, disorienting pace. And Think with Google offers a compass in this shifting landscape. The platform brings you real talk from industry leaders, deep dives into trends and practical strategies for growth. Whether you're grappling with personalization or seeking the next big innovation, Think with Google has you covered. Visit thinkwithgoogle.com today and transform challenges into opportunities. So, Max, you followed Ari's career. You are a. You're a big moviegoer. What surprised you about that conversation? What did you learn?
- [42:42]
A
You know, I have obviously paid a lot of attention to him. I've listened to him on podcasts. I've watched his interviews, and so, you know, it is always really fun to see people you pay attention to and follow closely in the media kind of come to life. It's one of the treats of getting to do this show and having the show gain a little bit of traction.
- [43:02]
C
So.
- [43:03]
A
So he didn't surprise me in terms of his, you know, the things. His ideologies, the things that he had to say. What honestly surprised me and what I thought was really cool and interesting and makes sense if you see the film, is his deep understanding of how our modern information bubbles work and the things that he. The lengths that he went to. To kind of live in that world. Right. He was talking about setting up his, like, burner accounts so he could. So. So he could see stuff that wasn't coming to him. And, you know, the. The amount to which he, like everybody else, was just living online during COVID and how that kind of warped his mind. And, you know, I also just think I liked this movie, obviously. I think a lot of people did not like this movie and will not like this movie. I think that it seems to be very, very divisive. But what I really liked about it, and I think you kind of pushed him on this a little bit, was that while everybody else has been going towards escapism and things to make us forget about COVID he was like, wa. Why is nobody paying attention to this crazy thing that we all experienced and how it has totally changed our world and continues to change it? And, like, it is true. I mean, he's right about that. And it's brave, I think, artistically to go after that, you know, open question whether audiences will reward him for that with their money.
- [44:20]
B
I think Mick signals listeners probably actually should ought to see it. I mean. Cause as you say, he captures kind of. There's so many dumb movies about media. And so when you sort of misunderstand our business and how media works. And I do think he really, really nails it. I mean, it's funny because remember when people used to say, Twitter isn't real life? And I do think historians of the future, they're only gonna read Twitter. Twitter is gonna be the only thing that is real in terms of trying to understand what happened in the last decade. And I do think that he. And this film totally gets that. And I thought it'd be kind of amazing. He said, this is the movie that Twitter made. I mean, that's like the worst tagline I've ever heard. And no one who hears that will watch it. But that' kind of very astute treatment of this reality.
- [45:06]
A
And he was really smart to focus it during COVID because that was when it accelerated the ways in which media became important parts of our lives. And it accelerated this kind of fragmentation because, of course, we couldn't interact with people, and media became the thing through which we interacted with the outside world and other people.
- [45:24]
B
Yeah. Although, you know, it's funny, you started by sort of picking up Naima's point about, you know, how we don't. Haven't fully processed Covid. You know, I honestly left this movie thinking, you know, Covid wasn't the problem. Problem. Like, the media was the problem. You could tell this whole story of the United States and the world gradually losing our minds on social media without Covid. Yeah, like. Like media maybe was ultimately the real. The real virus.
- [45:47]
A
I think Covid gave it that familiar backdrop and texture in some ways. I also think it. And you got at this point as well, it lent some humanity to characters who the movie otherwise made fun of at the time. Maybe some people of a certain political persuasion felt like, you know, oh, my God, I don't wanna be around this person. They're not wearing a mask. They might give me Covid. I don't wanna die. I feel like I maybe was one of those people. But in retrospect, looking back, you're like, oh, my God, this person is being humiliated on screen. And Ari really focuses on that experience, and I think that that was important. Meanwhile, it also shows those people consuming insane stuff that's driving them crazy and forcing them towards these fringe views. So I think it just complicates the kind of partisan pictures of these different moments. I agree with you that I thought it really understood the texture of this modern media moment in a way that I have not seen on screen.
- [46:39]
B
Yeah, I mean, he. Ari said somewhere that it's a Western in which instead of guns, you have phones. Yeah. It's a real statement of this moment. Anyway, Max, thank you for roping him in. That was a really fascinating conversation.
- [46:51]
A
Thank you for going along with the ride with me on this one. I thought it was well worth it, for sure.
- [46:56]
B
Well, that is it for us this week. Thank you for listening to Mixed Signals from Semaphore Media. Our show is produced by Sheena Ozaki, with special thanks to Josh Billinson, Chad Lewis, Rachel Oppenheim, Anna Pizzino, Garrett Wiley, Jules Zern, and Tori Kur. Our engineer is Rick Kwan. Our theme music is by Billy Libby. Our public editor is Jack Dorsey. If you like Mixed Signals, please follow us wherever you get your podcasts. If you're watching on YouTube, please like and subscribe. And if you want more, you can always sign up for Semaphore's Media newsletter out Sunday night. And Max has a particularly good scoop this week, so definitely sign up.