← Mixed Signals from Semafor Media
Mixed Signals from Semafor Media
Hasan Piker on streaming all day, his relationship with Zohran Mamdani, and the lefty media machine
00:46:35
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- [00:01]
A
So just quick programming note here for our listeners. We recorded this conversation with Hasan shortly before the US And Israeli strikes on Iran. We still thought that it was a really interesting conversation, but we did not get into either of those topics because they hadn't happened yet. But we really hope you enjoy this interesting conversation with Hasan Piker right after this.
- [00:28]
B
I'm so fortunate that Jeff Bezos doesn't know who I am. I hope, and I hope he never finds out. Thank God he's so busy, I don't know, being cool and wearing cool T shirts and ruining Washington Post to pay attention to what his other employees are doing, you know.
- [00:55]
A
Welcome to another episode of Mixed Signals from us here at Semaphore Media, where we are talking to all of the most interesting and important people shaping our new media age. I'm Max Tawney. I'm media editor here at Semaphore. And with me, as always from Semaphore's headquarters is our editor in chief, Ben Smith. Ben, you did some handiwork this week. You are actually broadcasting to us, streaming to us live from Starlink. It seems your connection is good. That feels very futuristic. You doordashed it to the office, we
- [01:25]
C
instacarted it, and my colleague Carolina got it here fast, went out on the roof, hooked it up. And don't have to worry about the unstable WI fi in this week's episode.
- [01:33]
A
That's kind of insane that you can just literally go onto like the Uber Eats app and get a Starlink and have Internet and it connects better than the WI fi that we have installed in the building. That's amazing. But we're not here to discuss the technological marvels that make this show possible. We're here to interview interesting people. And we've got an interesting, very interesting guest this week on the show. That's Hasan Piker. He's the popular leftist socialist Twitch streamer who's gotten a lot of attention over the last several years for his kind of connection with young men, many of whom have become kind of disillusioned with Democrats and with the left. And Hasan is kind of at a moment of darkness for Democrats and those who feel like Democrats have lost young men. Many on the left have started to look to Hasan, who is this kind of gigantic, literally man who is jacked and who seems to connect with some of those people. Hasan, of course, is also a very controversial figure. He's made a number of statements that have gotten him condemned by members of Congress, by people in the Democratic Party and on the left, people who've run for office. So the first and most important question to ask is, Ben, do you condemn Hasan Piker?
- [02:40]
C
You know, the nice thing about being a journalist, you don't have to disavow anybody. You can just, you can just talk to them all.
- [02:45]
A
This is gonna be an interesting and kind of, in some cases, I think, tricky interview for us. Oftentimes we like to have people on the show who are controversial and, and who are shaping our discourse in interesting ways, but aren't always saying things that please people. We've had Clay Travis on the show previously and we talked to him about Trump and sports, and he's obviously a big fan of Trump and thinks that sports leagues are suffering because they've gone too woke.
- [03:08]
C
Do you think it's partly that the people who appeal to young men almost have to play some of the kind of shock culture game have to offend to cut through?
- [03:17]
A
Yeah, absolutely. And Hasan has described himself as the Rush Limbaugh for Zoomers and as like an AM drive time talk radio personality for Gen Z. I mean, one of
- [03:28]
C
these days that'll happen to you, Max.
- [03:29]
A
I don't know if I want that necessarily. Seven hours a day seems like a lot. But we've got Hasan waiting for us. Why don't we bring him in? Right after this quick break,
- [03:46]
C
Our friend Josh Spanier, Google's VP of marketing, has a new podcast out called Frontier cmo. It's from Think with Google, and it gets into all the ways marketing is shifting, especially in the AI era, where the old marketing playbooks have become obsolete and the whole role of the CMO is being redefined in real time. Josh talks to the people who are actually figuring it out, top CMOs, industry leaders and creators, and gets into the real world challenges and specific strategies they're using to navigate this new era. These are notes from the marketing Frontier. You can find Frontier CMO on any podcast platform or watch it on YouTube.
- [04:25]
A
Hasan, thank you so much for joining us. We're really excited for you to be here.
- [04:30]
B
Thank you for having me, guys.
- [04:31]
A
I think that most people who listen to our show are media freaks. They're locked in. They've probably seen one of the many long magazine features about you. But we kind of wanted to ask something that we didn't know the answer to, which is like, if you could tell us about the scale of, of your audience and how you think about who those people are. Like how many people are watching you and how you kind of think about who your audience is.
- [04:57]
B
Yeah. So I do a yearly census and in that census I've noticed that like my audience has basically grown up alongside myself. So the demographics have remained like relatively stable. But the average Hasanabi head is what I call him or parasocialist, is probably now in their mid to late 20s and is a white male and many of them are college educated. And the size of the audience itself, I mean it's, I don't know what the full magnitude is, what the full, what the full size looks like, but I mean I've consistently been one of the top content creators on the platform Twitch, and probably am the largest leftist content creator in North America other than like I guess the Morena Party, if you want to consider AMLO and Claudia Sheinbaum leftist content creators. Because they do, they do live streams and those things do numbers. So outside of those two, I'm probably the biggest one. You know, the live concurrent viewership, which is not a one to one comparison for like Nielsen television ratings. If you want to try and make that comparison, it's usually like what your live concurrent viewership is like 10x what your TV ratings would look like. My live concurrent viewership usually is anywhere between 30 to 40,000 over the eight hour time frame that I'm live streaming, which means there's usually around like 300,000 to 400,000 unique viewers tuning in from all around the world. Many of them are in North America, United States of America and Canada, some in England, Germany as well. But the vast majority is, is from the English speaking world, specifically in North America.
- [06:50]
A
So since they've kind of grown up with you and they're in their late twenties, like presumably now a lot of them have, have jobs. When are they kind of watching the stream? I would imagine if you're in your early 20s, you probably have some more time that you can kind of pop onto the stream and, and see what's going on. Are you picking up on any sort of changing viewership now that your audience has kind of grown up with you and they're older and presumably like have some stuff to do during the day other than just kind of watch you on, on your stream?
- [07:17]
B
Yeah, I mean I have Amazon delivery drivers who have me in their ear while they're driving throughout the day. So I think like for a lot of people they consume my content in the way that like our parents generation consumed like AM radio, conservative talk radio. So they just kind of have it on and throughout the day I just go through the news piece by piece with no repeats.
- [07:44]
C
That's some really strange Amazon vertical integration using their Their platform Twitch to radicalize their own delivery drivers.
- [07:52]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I'm so fortunate that Jeff Bezos doesn't know who I am. I hope, and I hope he never finds out. Like, I was really worried. I was the, the single largest donor to the Amazon Labor Union and I never revealed it. And then like someone did an investigation into it and then they were like, wait, this guy is a Twitch streamer. He's like, he's the top donor. And I, I'd given him like 170 grand or something. And I was like, guys, it's fine. Just don't worry about that. That's so. Thank God he's so busy, I don't know, being cool and wearing cool T shirts and ruining Washington Post to pay attention to what his other employees are doing.
- [08:35]
C
You know, there's a feeling actually mostly on the right now, that you don't. You can't demolish the master's house with the master's tools and you need to start your own, you know, and there's a lot happening, kind of alternate platforms to the right. Sounds like you don't. That's not your view. You're fine to use the master's tools.
- [08:50]
B
Well, I think it's really funny that those guys think that they're, you know, not serving the same masters when they go to a right wing website. I mean, I'm anti capitalist, so from my perspective, it's impossible to avoid capitalism. It's just, it's going to happen. The quote I think about often is, I think it's falsely attributed to Lenin, but the capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them. Now, of course, I don't mean that literally. I'm not talking about like actual violence, but it's more so a testament to the fact that as long as you're an earner, as long as you have some utility, as long as you are still making money for these sorts of platforms, especially because, like, my commentary is nowhere near seen as like disruptive to the interests of capital that they'll just keep, you know, they'll just keep hosting me.
- [09:42]
A
I hope you've been doing this for a long time and kind of, I think one of the things that gets a lot of people's attention, you know, Ross Douthat, when he interviewed you, talked about this, is the fact that you stream for like what, seven days a week essentially for like close to seven hours at this point. Right. Is that, is that about right?
- [09:59]
B
Yeah, it used to be 10, so now it's like less so now yeah,
- [10:03]
A
you have a little bit more time off, but like, I guess, why, why continue to do it at that kind of frequency and cadence? Like, presumably you have the audience now across your platforms. You could, you know, do a podcast a few times a week maybe and like, or maybe like livestream on YouTube and kind of call it a day. Why continue with that kind of intense cadence?
- [10:24]
B
Someone's got to do it. I feel like there is a barrage of content and propaganda that comes from the right. And a big part of what I do is try to deal with like, misinformation and sometimes even misinformation from the left as well. Let's be real. But more often than not, it's very bias framing and a predisposition towards just saying whatever corresponds to a biased narrative that's coming from the right that I think needs to be addressed. So as long as those issues persist, I feel like someone has to sit there and address it. And I have basically lucked into this position where I realized that this is the medium that I take advantage of. Twitch Streaming is like, very communicative. There's. There's a lot of back and forth feedback, and I feel like that, that works with my style and that works with my goals in general, whether it be working with organizers, working with advocates, working with activists, or working with, you know, elected representatives. I feel like I have the most impact doing exactly this.
- [11:27]
C
I mean, has this just sort of extended engagement with the chat with the camera? Do you think it's changed your inner life?
- [11:34]
B
Yes, absolutely. I used to have a robust social life. I used to, you know, do other things. I mean, I still have every waking moment that I'm not in front of a camera, I'm touching grass, I'm spending time with friends and family. I'm very fortunate that way. You know, going out, working out, have a healthy schedule outside of the. The seven to eight hours that I spend in front of a camera every day. But it certainly changed my inner life. I guess it's. It's impossible not to.
- [12:09]
A
I think maybe what Ben is asking is like, has it changed, like the way that you think about things like that you process information. Do you find that being in front of the camera that much has changed you and like, who you are on the inside? I guess.
- [12:22]
B
Oh, no, because it's virtually impossible to put on a different face for eight hours a day. And especially because, like, I have this somewhat personal connection with all these people that are tuning in. They've seen me evolve throughout the years. They. They see things, they see the way I. If I feel bad, it's like impossible for me to hide it, right? So, like, for that reason, I think it's. It's impossible to just put on a face and have this like, manicured personality, crafted personality. So I've made it a policy to just be who I am off camera. Like, anything that I'm texting in a group chat is things that I would say on a camera as well to a live audience as well, which, you know, sometimes leads to problems. As a matter of fact, sometimes I have, you know, hyperbolic moments or moments of anger where I'm responding to someone, moments of weakness. And then, you know, those are very clippable moments that people get very frustrated about. And then there's a cycle of discourse surrounding it. But at the end of the day, it's impossible for me to be a different person off camera.
- [13:30]
A
You have gotten more popular, clearly, and more well known over the last few years. I was, you know, pretty struck that you were on stage at Crooked Media recently. You've had a number of profiles written about you. Clearly people are paying a lot more attention to what you have to say. At least people who are, you know, over the age of 35 and are in media, like, are paying attention. Do you feel like you've had to be more careful with some of the things you've said? I mean, we talked about the Ross Douthit interview earlier. He was asking you about a comments you made about Rick Scott, which you would apologize for. Do you feel like you have to be a little bit more careful now that people are paying more attention to you?
- [14:07]
B
I don't feel that I need to be more careful because people are paying attention, but I do feel like I need to be more careful because, like, I do collaborate with elected representatives, for example, and like, as I found out, you know, someone who I was a big booster for early on, Zohran Bamdani, I became a talking point on the campaign by the end of his mayoral run, was in a last moment of desperation from the Cuomo campaign to no success whatsoever. They just decided to be like, Hasan is this, like, dangerous radical? And you're associating with them like, why won't you denounce him? Why won't you denounce him? And while that kind of stuff is ineffective in general, I don't even want there to be a conversation around stuff like that. Like, I should never be the conversation.
- [14:57]
C
So does that mean keeping more distance from people like Mamdani, or does that mean saying less inflammatory stuff?
- [15:02]
B
My commentary doesn't change. Right? But as far as like what I'm saying, I do have to think about it for sure. But again, the medium itself is, is very personable, is very personal, it's very close. But it also has a 10. It also has its downsides, right? Joe Rogan back in the day, because I'm a media freak myself. Joe Rogan back in the day in like 2014, 2015, was constantly complaining about getting clipped out of context, right? He'd be like, oh, we're just having a normal conversation. And back then he wasn't as like brain disease as he is now. But you know, he would be like, cause we're talking for three hours. Like, of course people can clip us out of context, right? And there was some truth to that. That medium itself is something that terrified of even to this day. Like a lot of politicians used to be very shy about going on, you know, a three hour podcast because it's very difficult to be on and be politically correct or, or be perfect with your messaging for a three hour period of time. Now imagine having a live audience that's like trying to antagonize you in that same process while you're talking about politics. And also an entire fairly sophisticated smear machine that has developed as a cottage industry that is like actively not only trying to pick apart your argument or piss you off, but then also clipping it and then shipping it off to like a multitude of different content creators that will then make. There's an entire economy around this now. Like, they'll make videos about this kind of stuff.
- [16:31]
C
Can you talk us a little more about the Mamdani experience? Because I think in some sense he's so squarely in your demographic. Like a kind of millennial gamer guy with leftist.
- [16:41]
B
I joke and I say, like, I've never, I've never been closely represented both like demographically and also ideologically by any elected representative before him. He kind of, he kind of ruined it for me a little bit. Because like now every, every time I, you know, every time a campaign comes to me or something and I'm like, okay, are you, are you socialist? Like, like, how to what extent do you want to change American politics? Like, I think about that in my mind, but, you know, obviously are going to get back to reality. It's not going to happen with every single elected representative I work with. Right.
- [17:14]
C
I guess I'm curious, like how you think about your relationship with him, your distance from him. Are you his spokesman? Are you going to be critical of him?
- [17:21]
B
Oh, I have been critical of him, like his early Hochel endorsement, for example, was something that I thought was tactically a misstep. I thought it was a tactical error. Not to say that the. I think, I believe it was Delgado who was like, supposed to be this like potential DSA aligned, even though he wasn't a DSA endorsed candidate at the point he was supposed to be this like pressure point against Hochul. And I, I knew that he, he was a long shot and it wasn't that I was like in love with his candidacy or anything, but I thought it would be better to, to hold out on your endorsement, to apply more pressure to the Kathy Hochul to make demands that are going to be a necessity. So I was critical of that. I was critical of a bunch of other things as well. But having said that, it's the same principle with aoc, like the, the, the congresspersons and the elected representatives that I'm closely aligned with politically I still can have disagreements with, but that doesn't mean I'm going to, you know, cast them aside. I'm not like an all or nothing purist in the way that maybe some, some of the younger leftists are. I've been doing this for quite a while and at this point, you know, although I'm much younger, I guess than, than my other counterparts in the media, I've been doing this for almost 13 years now. I'm used to disappointment.
- [18:38]
C
You're less and less younger. Sorry.
- [18:40]
B
Yeah, I'm used to the disappointment. I'm used to. I don't fall in love with candidates is what I'm saying. But I expect them to follow through on their promises and I use them as a vessel. I use them as a vehicle to advance an agenda. That's all they're worth to me at the end of the day, no matter how cool they are in person. Like Zoron.
- [19:03]
C
A lot of the attacks on you, on Zoron and the kind of anxiety level of New York right now has been around antisemitism. I think jews are like 10% of the population, more than half of the recorded hate crimes. And I'm curious. And there's been a lot of pressure on Mamdani to in some way engage that. And obviously there's this stew that I don't wanna spend too much time getting into around opposition to Israel and Israeli policy, anti Semitism, what's the, you know, sort of, what's the difference? But do you think he's gone far enough to engage that? Think he's gone too far?
- [19:38]
B
I mean, bigotry is bigotry. And you're the mayor, you're gonna have to address bigotry. You should address bigotry. Right? That happens in the city. So in that regard, obviously, when there's like a hate crime, of course he's gonna come out and be like, this is unacceptable. He's the mayor. Right. And. And I think he does a decent job with that. That was another area that I had a disagreement with him, was around the settler fares. Now, of course, I think we all know that Zoron was a long time anti Zionist advocate activist, started the SJP chapter in a school back in the day, before it was even before people even knew what Palestine really was. Right. So that to me spells that he's like, this is something that he has been aware of and invested in for quite a long time. But when, as the mayor, when the. When the people came out and they were like protesters, there were the pro Palestine protesters on one side that were saying like, we support Hamas here or something like that, and then the counter protesters on the other side were like waving the kahanus flags and, you know, saying heinous things about not only Zoram, but about Palestinians and whatnot. But the main point of contention there was the settler fairs that were taking place inside of a synagogue. I thought it was definitely a misstep that the entire New York City political class, all the way from, you know, Letitia James to AOC to Zoram Hamdani, hyper focused on the Hamas line from the anti settler affairs protesters rather than the main point of contention, which was, you know, allowing settler affairs to take place because it's illegal.
- [21:13]
C
I mean, it was also this sort of feeling of angry protesters outside a synagogue. I think freaked people out.
- [21:19]
B
No, for sure. But I think, like, you don't sort of.
- [21:21]
C
You don't see that?
- [21:22]
B
No, no, I totally see that. One of the things that Zoran does, though, I think that's really good, and I think more politicians should do it, is not treat their constituents like they're stupid. Right? Like having. Having a firm commitment to. To the truth and just being like, this is what's actually going on. The. The expectation from someone like myself is not that he come out and be like, I love Hamas. That would be insane.
- [21:45]
C
Right?
- [21:45]
B
That's not what I'm saying at all. But like, I think a better message in that situation should be like, look, there are protests happening, but we have to analyze why they're happening as well. This is something that's important. This is something that I'VE talked about something that I didn't shy away from when I was running.
- [22:01]
C
How do you think about just sort of again, because I don't want to pull too far into this, but you've been on the Internet a long time and seen the sort of rising and falling and rising tides of bigotry in the chat and in the comments and in the culture.
- [22:16]
B
And as good as it is today, let me tell you.
- [22:19]
C
Yeah, never been as good.
- [22:20]
B
If you're a bigot, you're having a great time. Right?
- [22:24]
C
Right. By which you mean bad and.
- [22:26]
B
Oh yes.
- [22:27]
C
And obviously your views. I don't need to ask you so much about your view of right wing bigotry, but how do you think about the kind of, about kind of like left wing Internet anti Semitism right now?
- [22:38]
B
I think that there is a lot of conversation that frustrates me as well when people talk about like how the most honest way of combating like Israel is by being anti Semitic. Like I have noticed that that is like a point of contention even in spaces that I occupy for the most part. I think like the left is pretty good on this. A lot better than the right, let's say on this stuff where the, the average position on the right that's like anti Israel oftentimes revolves around just being anti Semitic. Like they're more invested in disparaging J Jews rather than talking really about Israel. And then you have the groipers that are now pro Epstein. I think I try to comprehend what the fuck they're up to. It's impossible to figure out exactly what it is. It's just, it's like pure reactionary. They want to be contrarian and they want to be edgy. And because like a lot of gains have been made in making anti Semitism no longer be as edgy, they have to push the needle even further. And I think they've figured out that they can do that by just being like I'm going to sell a Jeffrey Epstein quarters or something, I don't know. Or that like he was based, like that's what they're saying now, which is strange because it's like.
- [23:52]
C
But don't you feel that pressure just to say more extreme stuff that is part of it. Right? Like this.
- [23:57]
B
Well, for me, for me the, my, my average position, like what I, what I believe is already so far outside of, of what is normal politics, even though it's becoming increasingly more normal. But I have an agenda. I have a political agenda. Right. Like I want, I want things to be better for the working class. So it's not about the performance. The performance is simply just a tool to address those needs.
- [24:26]
A
Well, we have a lot more that we want to get to with Hasan, but we have to take a short break, so we'll be right back after this.
- [24:43]
C
In this week's branded segment from Think with Google, I Talked to Google's VP of marketing, Josh Spanier, about how the best CMOs are measuring their marketing today. How are good CMOs measuring their marketing today?
- [24:54]
D
The fun part of my job is I get to work with some of the most incredible professionals, incredible thinkers when it comes to measurement and technology inside of Google. Gareth Bayer is our VP of of product for measurement, analytics and buying. I sat down with him and he told me some really interesting concepts for how good CMOs should be thinking about measurement. The first is really to think about measurement like you're driving a car, you're holding the steering wheel, you're turning left, you're turning right to get where you need to go to. That's in contrast with the way measurement used to be, which was waiting 12, 16 weeks after the campaign and finished with AI. Now you're getting the results in real time, your feedback through the steering wheel. Good CMOs are understanding that. Second, you really need to think about measurement like a portfolio management in a finance company. You may be running 10,000 assets soon, 100,000 assets within an individual campaign. That means you need to be optimizing again in real time, rebalancing and reshifting your portfolio of assets all the time. That's where measurement is becoming more dynamic, more fluid in real time. And third, you need to trust and verify everything you're doing. But one of the mistakes that CMOs make is they beat themselves up because they don't know every dollar doing exactly everything through the measurement process. You don't blame your fund manager for picking one wrong stock. And we need to have that mindset within measurement. Test, learn, iterate, fail fast and move on. And with a bunch of AI tools that Google has, you can now do that. So data manager, our incrementality systems, our open source MMM Meridian, they all allow you to actually test faster, learn quicker, and actually optimize your measurement in real time. Measurement is becoming dynamic and real time versus passive, slow and late.
- [26:44]
C
And where can people go to find out more?
- [26:45]
D
Head on over to think with Google, google.com where you can read my interview with Garav where he runs through all these concepts. It's an incredibly illuminating piece. Great CMOs will want to read it@thinkwithgoogle.com.
- [27:10]
A
So we want to kind of go in a completely different direction. And because it's a media show, this is as of equal importance, though probably slightly less interesting to the general audience. But you know, you, as a part of your streams, one thing that you do is you're constantly reacting to, you know, clips or videos or even like live, essentially the live feed of like, for example, like a CNN interview or something with like Scott Jennings. Right? Yeah. I'm curious, I mean, have they tried to charge you for that? And does that. Are you afraid that you might have to like, at some point license that content? As these companies become more sophisticated, has anything like that come up for you?
- [27:46]
B
I mean, I've been copy strike by Turner Broadcasting before live reacting to like one of the presidential primary debates. I believe I personally have a unique approach to IP in general. I just don't care about it even for my own content. I think it's ridiculous, especially when it comes to something that's like, should be in the public domain, like a presidential debate. And I think most Americans would probably agree with that, especially when it comes to stuff like the presidential debates. Right. Having said that, I think a lot of these media companies are aware of, of what I'm doing as far as like reacting their comments or reacting to their, you know, coverage and sometimes even like tuning in live at moments. And they see it as complimentary, which is understandable because even if I am critical of their coverage, I'm still showcasing their coverage, I'm still relying on their coverage. And they don't, they don't necessarily see me as a market competitor, which is good, but instead they see it as a symbiotic relationship, as far as I understand from like the conversations that I've had with people that work at these media companies. Having said that, I don't think I've ever talked to an executive, like a super higher up executive, and hopefully they don't watch this video and go, what the hell? This guy's been doing this.
- [29:04]
A
You should strike him down.
- [29:05]
C
Like, they're definitely. That's our audience. Hasan, Sorry, I sort of share your intuitions about ip, but like, I don't think. But the courts have a somewhat different view.
- [29:15]
B
Yeah, well, luckily there's like some precedent here. There's a fair use precedent that was established initially for, for, you know, commentary purposes in general. And I think even YouTube is a lot, YouTube is a lot more rigorous in its terms of service violations around ip. They have a DMCA process that's like fairly Automated. And even then they allow a lot more room for news and commentary in particular. But while this is an ongo debate all the time about, like, how much of this is. Is within the confines of fair use, I have a more fluid, more dynamic approach to it, I guess. Like, as long as. As long as there's allowances. Like, I've been copy striked by Gavin McGinness before when he was doing a paywall interview with Kanye west, when Kanye was, like, doing his. When he was having the. The I Love Adolf Hitler tour that he was doing. A true visionary, by the way. He. He was way ahead of the game with anti Semitism. Like, he. He kind of cornered the market and then it became super fashionable. And now I feel like he's dropping it. I don't know. I don't know if he'll actually drop
- [30:15]
C
it, but I mean, maybe that's a positive sign. He does have, like, kind of, even at his darkest, like, incredible kind of like cultural radar. I think you're right. Actually feeling it coming when nobody else
- [30:26]
B
was at the time when he was doing it, I was like, this is the most insane thing I've ever seen. And now it's like, I mean, the Groiper movement has grown. They're getting profiled in the New York Times and stuff.
- [30:37]
C
So, like, I mean, Kanye got Trump too early.
- [30:40]
B
Yeah, maybe. Maybe he cornered the market. He's a real hipster. He's a real. He's a real hipster through and through. He was like, oh, this got too popular. I'm out. I don't want it anymore.
- [30:51]
C
A lot of kind of what we cover on the show is it does feel like there's really sort of a convergence. Like Versant is picking up all these podcasters, and I don't know, maybe. Maybe it'll be a year or two before you're like, anchoring Meet the Press. But it does seem like the question of what's legacy, what's new is really blurring pretty dramatically. And people's diet and people's trust, I think, are shifting around quite a bit. And I'm curious, I don't know. I guess I'm first of all curious. If you sort of buy that thesis, like, is it all converging or is there still something called new media and something called old media?
- [31:24]
B
I think there is definitely a convergence for sure, because at the end of the day, I think it's the forces of capital that's now moving away from mainstream outlets and starting to fund these other independent outlets. And I think, think the right, they were, they were ahead of the game as always. And, and they started doing this a long time ago. Right. Like they've, they've long had, you know, think tanks that are specifically focusing or the same exact donors like the, the Wilkes brothers. Right. They are major donors of the Republican Party. They also happen to be major donors to the Daily Wire, Prager U. All these other outlets that are supposed to be quote, unquote, independent outlets on the Internet and new media. Right. So there's always been this handshake and a much more collaborative media environment on the right as opposed to the left.
- [32:14]
C
I was watching you yesterday and you, you were talking about the extent to which interest streamer drama kind of dominates and sometimes pushes out substance. And I was trying to think about whether that's like a feature of the new media or whether that's really also the FOX versus cnn. Whether that's also something that kind of is like, is just sort of a reinvention of an old kind of, old kind of feud or is kind of personality drama that dominates so much of, of streaming right now. Is that like, inherent to the medium?
- [32:43]
B
I think it's even democratized that landscape a little bit. But if we're looking at like the hyper focus of, of New York related news, you know, if New York sneezes, the rest of the world catches a cold. And, and New York media is, is a little bit insulated in that way and, and, and is a very domineering force in mainstream reporting. I think nowadays the personalities like, and the drama that exists within the New York media landscape that has a much more adult patina associated with it as opposed to like whatever is going on on the Internet for sure. At least they, at least, you know, many in mainstream reporting have like the decency to mask this as like a sincere disagreement or something like that. But like even down to like the Barry Weiss coverage. Right. Like Barry Weiss becoming the editor in chief of cbs. Like, I think there are a lot of people who are, are, you know, hyper focusing on that because it's like a, it's, it's a major media shift that's taking place. But I think like, if you're living in the heartland, you don't know. You're not like, yeah, very wise. Like what?
- [33:53]
C
Right. But it also does feel like sort of Internet personality drama.
- [33:57]
B
Yeah. So it's, in that regard, there's like, there' a lot of similarities, but it is definitely a lot more childish on the, on the Internet and it's a lot more silly and there are Even less editorial standards, I think, obviously, because at the end of the day, you're only beholden to your audience and it's up to the individual to be responsible. And many people don't actually have that same interest of making sure that their analysis is grounded in truth.
- [34:24]
A
We kind of started out by talking about Twitch and kind of your evolution kind of as a streamer and as a commentator. It seems like Twitch is really shifting slightly away from streaming people playing video games towards people out in the real world with cameraman doing insane stuff. You've done some of this. People have been paying attention over the last few weeks to Clavicular, who I guess he's a kick streamer, so it's slightly different, but his whole thing is streaming his entire life outside of his home, essentially, and having a camera person filming him doing everything at all times. Do you think that that's changing? Is taste changing on the platform? Are things mo moving away from you stationary in your office, in your bedroom to like the expectation that you're going to be streaming live out in the world while you do something else?
- [35:12]
B
Yes and no. We call these metas in my side of the Internet. And the metas have shifted quite a bit on Twitch. Like people used to play Fortnite, for example. That was the game and everyone had to play Fortnite and all the numbers were on Fortnite. That was what the audience wanted. And then there was more like drama focus, more of a, you know, reacting to YouTube videos, things like that, doing cultural commentary and things like that. And now there is this resurgence of what they call IRL streaming in real life streaming. And it's basically a different kind of the exact same reality TV structure that exists, but it's like even more interactive.
- [35:51]
C
Yeah.
- [35:51]
B
What we are doing on Twitch or in live streaming is I think, very similar to previous forms of media that has always existed. It's just significantly more interactive. That is what makes it unique. That's what makes it more. More interesting for. For especially younger audiences. You have the capacity to communicate with the content creator itself in real time and you have the capacity to change the dynamic of the stream in its entirety. And I think that's what. That's what the reward structure is on live streaming. And. And so Clavicular is basically, you know, keeping up with the Kardashians, but Gen Z Edition and for young boys in a more.
- [36:30]
C
A more tightly controlled cultural space. You were in China recently and the Chinese government, clearly, which I think has really struggled just to get, I mean, their official propaganda cctv is just like, it's terrible. They lack the kind of like Russians and probably in some cases Americans touch for, you know, for that kind of stuff.
- [36:49]
B
They clearly lack the American touch for sure.
- [36:51]
C
But they have invited some streamers. The ishowspeed stuff. There was just this massive cultural phenomenon. And I think his audience was like, riveted by China. I'm curious, like, you went there, you know, talked to a lot of people, went to a lot of places. Did you feel like you were being used by the Chinese government to tell a story to your audience?
- [37:12]
B
No, but I did, I did feel an environment of surveillance in Beijing in particular. Like, that was the. And, and I think this is a common experience with people that do travel to China where, like, the vibes in Beijing are very different. But when you move out of Beijing and you go to Shanghai and Shanghai is like very Western, and I didn't like it that much either. But my favorite was Chongqing and Chengdu, which were like very Chinese cities. That was a much more real experience that we got to have with like the locals. You know, we, we worked in like a wonton shop and stuff. But none of this was like, organized with the Chinese government.
- [37:48]
C
But somebody must have persuaded them to give you a visa and let you go do it, right?
- [37:51]
B
Yeah, a lot of the stuff is like tightly controlled. So I'm sure that at some point there was like a official that's like looking through this and going, okay, you know, we're allowing these people to come in. But I think they're, they're loosening up those restrictions now anyway, especially with what they're doing with Canada and the UK Offering them visa fee travel with no commitments from the Chinese side either. They're just straight up, you know, they're giving visa fee travel. And I think the reason for that is because they've realized that the, the cities have developed so much that most Westerners, if they go to China, to one of these cities or just like go and visit China in general, they're gonna be like, oh my God, this is amazing. And that is going to help with their, their soft power goals in general. But you're absolutely right, their propaganda is horrible.
- [38:37]
C
I mean, their media culture, their, their streaming culture there you know, is, is, is parallel but quite different. Did you pick anything up like, that you brought back about the, about the media culture? Like, was there anything you're like, oh, man, I'm gonna start like, you know, oh my God, selling stuff on the live stream or whatever?
- [38:53]
B
No, I, I mean, I'm, I'M very aware of, like, what they've been doing for years. They're so far ahead of us on the, on the live streaming side, even with all of the restrictions, obviously, like, there is no Chinese version of me, right? Because.
- [39:06]
C
Yeah, that guy's not lasting long.
- [39:08]
B
Yeah, that's not happening. Right. Like, let's be real, like, you can't. That's the one thing you can't do. And everyone, very quickly you learn that, where you're, like, if you weren't even aware of that, that, like, you can say pretty much whatever you want about any other country. You can even say things about China, too, as long as you don't. As long as you don't criticize the party and, you know, Xi Jinping, Mao Zedong, any of the. Any of the figures. Right. Like, there, it's. That's the. That's the main thing. It's like the big no. No. Which, of course, for someone like myself is, you know, it's directly antagonistic to what I do. So there's no, like, version of me in China. Obviously, they become disadvantaged.
- [39:47]
A
So, Hasan, this has been a really interesting conversation. We started off by talking a little bit about, you know, your evolution as. As a streamer. I'm sure you've had a lot of opportunities. You've been approached to do probably some pretty interesting things in terms of media projects or something else. What are some interesting media opportunities or other opportunities that you thought, wow, that's crazy that you. That you turned down.
- [40:11]
B
I mean, there's been. There's been a lot of advertisers that have turned down on Twitch, but I think you're asking more so in, like, the traditional sense. I mean, there's like, documentaries. You know, there are always, like, every now and then, there's just whenever, whenever the election cycle comes around, there's always, like, Hollywood producers that are like, oh, we remembered that there is, like a whole political world out there, like, let's go tap into this guy. But I usually just personally stay away from stuff like that because I feel like it's a distraction from what I'm doing. I'm very, like, like, focused on what I'm doing, and it requires so much processing power and it requires all the bandwidth I have and more. So I. I usually can't really divide my time elsewhere. I usually will try to help to the best of my ability if they're, like, asking me for any sort of, like, consulting or. Or if they want to do something more comprehensive. But there's, like, a bunch of shelved projects out there from production companies that have come to be like, oh, let's explore the unique world of the Internet. Right. Or, you know, the. The content creators that are.
- [41:16]
C
Yeah, a little late for that.
- [41:18]
B
For me, it's like, I'll. I'll entertain it, especially if it means, like, getting more awareness around some of my friends in the media that don't have the same level of. Of mainstream prominence, I guess. But overall, it's just. It's not something that I'm super invested in personally, because I just don't have enough time and to. To focus on things like that.
- [41:39]
A
Well, Hassan, that feels like a really good place for us to leave it. We don't have your kind of stamina. You could probably, you know, keep doing something like this for another few hours. We're.
- [41:46]
C
Yeah, we gotta go.
- [41:47]
B
I'm gonna go live right after this, and I'm gonna be live for the next seven to eight hours. So.
- [42:05]
C
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- [42:28]
A
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- [42:29]
C
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- [42:41]
A
Ben, I thought that was a really interesting conversation. I kind of want to start by asking, were you surprised by the tone and some of the things that Hasan had to say? I mean, you know, I think both of us, I'm sure, will get some feedback after this episode from people who might feel differently about various things that Hassan, you know, has said or have been upset by things that he's said in the past. But I feel like he came on the show and had a. Had an. Had an interesting tone. Was it surprising to you, kind of interacting with him versus seeing some of the clips and whatnot online?
- [43:15]
C
Yeah, I mean, he can be at times like a very angry partisan figure. Like, that's. Some of his vibe is very, like kind of macho politics. And I thought we got him in kind of a reflective moment or insofar as anybody who is talking to a camera that much is capable of reflection.
- [43:34]
A
That's true. We talked a few times about this interview that he did with the New York Times with Ross Douthit in which they went back and forth about some of the language that he's used in the past and some of the violent language that he's used in his thoughts about that. So obviously we didn't want to go retread that territory, but I did think that, that clearly he is aware that the things that he says now, because he wants to be active in politics and make change, the things that he says have to be more measured and he has to interact in a way that might not be how he's feeling inside in that particular moment. Do you think that's the right read, Ben?
- [44:12]
C
Yeah, I do. And do you think. I mean, I guess, you know, you are, you're. You're almost a member of his demo. I guess I am curious. I think one of the big questions now is like, how much appeal does do he. Do Zaran, do aoc? Like, there's a real sort of infrastructure of the new left of a just sort of proudly socialist, proudly anti Israel left. I don't know how, how broad its appeal is going to be. It's hard to tell. Is he becoming a mainstream figure or will he always sort of occupy kind of the edge?
- [44:39]
A
It's a really interesting question, and I think that the answer to it will be the thing that defines democratic politics and maybe a part of American politics over the next several years. I thought that what was really interesting that he said that I haven't really necessarily picked up on in the past was not just that he's dedicated to his political project, but that he feels like he is willing to moderate on certain things. Maybe not like issues necessarily, but he's willing to moderate on his, his approach and how he, how he talks about things. Right. Like, I mean, he said pretty explicitly, like, I am older now, I am less radical as far to the left as many of the people who watch my streams. He said that he wants to be able to interact with Democratic politicians and kind of like help some of them out in certain ways and shape politics. And that that has made him watch what he says. I just thought that that part, it was. Was quite remarkable. And I think that, I think that it, it shows that the left, certain parts of the left, want to see how far they can actually take things beyond just being kind of getting retweets and engagement, you know, on the Internet, like, like they want power, they want to do something with it, and they're willing to open the tent a little bit and moderate or not say certain things if that helps them get what they want.
- [45:59]
C
Yeah, I mean, it's the evolution from Bernie Sanders to Zoran Mamdani and who is attempting to run a very pragmatic mayoralty, make a lot of compromises. I mean, I do think one of the things about political movements in general now is the successful ones have built their own pretty like deep media infrastructures and conversations and worlds of podcasts and books and small magazines where they're talking to each other in a way that kind of, I think reminds me of like the beginning of the 20th century. And I think you see this on the right, that people, a lot of people in the Trump administration have clearly been having some totally separate conversation than the mainstream media have been having it in signal chats and now are sort of out in the open and people are like, wait, where, where are these words that you're using and these memes coming from? And I think you see that on the left too. And I think, and it actually, I think it, it gives kind of a level of political depth and strength to these movements that they have these kind of alternatives, Internet, separate spaces where they're having conversations that are totally different from what you're seeing in the sort of central media.
- [46:56]
A
What did you think about what he had to say about Twitch and the fact that he hopped off of this interview, speaking with us for an hour, you know, I want to go kind of lay down or something after that, that it felt, felt like a lot. And he's going to go hop on right now and start streaming and reacting and being on camera. What do you think about what he had to say about. About kind of the future of always on streaming and like, what. Where that's headed? What did you think about that?
- [47:23]
C
Well, first of all, it just reminds me of being a blogger because that's what I felt like when I was. I mean, it was just the text based Internet, but I also felt like when I probably 2004 to 2010, just like face press straight up against the Internet, knowing exactly who I was talking to in the comments section. It's an incredibly addictive sort of experience. And you know, I think Twitter at times did that to me and other people. But I actually think that he sort of has picked up that the extent to which these media keep evolving and then get richer and get more expensive to produce the IRL streaming with a cameraman following you around is already a level of just cost, actually and production values. And I think Clavicular's doing fine. But when Kendall Jenner starts competing with him, she may be a little hard to compete with and I think you're seeing a kind of, of professionalization and upping of production values in these spaces. You know, it's going to force people like him to choose whether they stay in this relatively low fi space or whether they try to move up market in a certain way.
- [48:22]
A
See, I think that that's like we're talking about like aesthetics there kind of in production aesthetics. I think that the reason why I think someone like Hasan, or we're talking about clavicular now, who knows if anybody will care about him by the time that this airs.
- [48:36]
C
One can only hope not.
- [48:37]
A
One can only hope not. That's true. True. But there is a willingness to do it right. Like he is willing to do that. And the Kardashians, despite the fact that they're willing to put themselves on reality television, are not. Right. Like, and so the reason why Hasan,
- [48:51]
C
it's just about the economics. They'll be willing to do it when the economics.
- [48:54]
A
You think so? I actually kind of think. I don't think so. I think that that's a real invasive thing that I think most people don't have the stomach. Right. Like, do you. Do you want.
- [49:05]
C
I think most American celebrities will do whatever you pay them to do. And when it becomes deranged live streaming, they' be all in.
- [49:14]
A
Well, that's it for us this week. Thank you so much for listening to another episode of the Mixed Signals podcast from us here at Semaphore Media. Our show is produced by Manny Fadal and Josh Billenson with special thanks to Anna Pizzino, Jules Zern, Chad Lewis, Rich Oppenheim, Tori Kaur, Garrett Wiley and Daniel Haft. Our engineer is Rick Kwan and our theme music is by the excellent Steve Phone. Our public editor is New York City Mayor Zoran Mamdani. Zoran, what'd you think about what Hasan had to say? What are you guys talking about on your calls? Come on the show, let's talk about it.
- [49:44]
C
If you enjoyed the show, please follow us on your favorite podcast platform and please subscribe on YouTube and feel free
- [49:50]
A
to leave us a five star review, but five stars only, please. And if you want more, you can always sign up for Semaphore's media newsletter, which is out every Sunday night.