Mixed Signals from Semafor Media

Episode: Is journalism bad for The New York Times’ business?
Date: June 20, 2025
Guest: Meredith Kopit Levien, CEO of The New York Times
Hosts: Ben Smith & Max Tani
Location: Live at Cannes Lions Festival, French Riviera

Episode Overview

In this special live episode recorded at the Cannes Lions Festival, media reporters Max Tani and Ben Smith dive deep with Meredith Kopit Levien, CEO of The New York Times, into one of the most pressing questions facing journalism today: Is tough, adversarial reporting bad for business—particularly for the Times? Kopit Levien offers candid insights on the balance between revenue and journalism, the Times’ AI licensing strategies, acquisitions, the value of talent in a news era shaped by influencers, and the company’s push into new formats and audiences.

Key Discussion Points

1. The State of Publishing and Journalism at the Times

• Cultural Undercurrents in Media

  • Kopit Levien notes the tension at Cannes Lions between “math and machines” and the value-driven brand-building that’s core to the Times:

    “I am appreciating what feels to me to be an undercurrent of let's not sort of lose the plot... It’s not all math and machines.” (04:07)

• Journalism’s Business Risks

  • Ben Smith raises the notion that adversarial journalism is seen as a business liability in many major newsrooms, particularly as owners seek to avoid controversy with political leaders.
  • Kopit Levien firmly reframes:

    “Being an adversary is not the point. Holding power to account in a way that is useful to society is the point... If it were good for business or bad for business, we're gonna do it the same way.” (05:43)

• Is Journalism Actually Good for Business?

  • Levien argues that audience engagement—whether with news, games, or lifestyle content—is always good for business:

    “Engagement with everything we do is undoubtedly good for business... The fuel the business runs on is engagement of audience.” (06:53)

2. Governance, Independence, and Billionaire Ownership

• Times' Unique Structure

  • Different from billionaire-owned rivals (e.g., Washington Post, LA Times), the Times’ governance is described as “family-controlled public company”—run “for a singular purpose... to protect the independence and the sanctity of the journalism.” (08:15)

• Long-Term, Value-Focused Decision Making

  “My job is, you know, are these decisions going to look good 10 years from now, 15 years from now, 25 years from now?” (09:57)

• A Culture of Mission Over Maximization

  • Reference to Dean Baquet: “The Sulzbergers chose to be millionaires rather than billionaires.” Levien agrees, crediting the family's values-driven approach:

    “They're controlling the control structure... to deliver on the mission, which is for the public.” (10:41)

3. AI, Data, and Revenue: Licensing and Lawsuits

• The Complex Publisher-Tech Landscape

  • Times’ approach: “Find the right kind of partnerships and commercial agreements... and harness technology to make the report better…” (11:20)

• Amazon vs. OpenAI

  • Times sued OpenAI/Microsoft, citing unfair terms, but just inked a lucrative deal with Amazon. Levien is tight-lipped but signals the Amazon agreement gives the Times fair compensation, control, long-term stability, and broad distribution:

    “Our journalism... will be featured across a range of Amazon products. We're excited… that we get our work in front of more people.” (14:20)

  • On enforcement:

    “Where that doesn’t happen, we are prepared to enforce our rights because the stakes are really, really high.” (13:37)

• Speed vs. Deliberation in Tech Shifts

  • Ben Smith wonders if the Times’ famed deliberation is now too slow.
  • Levien clarifies:

    “It's not always good to be slow... We're really sharp on this very small list of things that cannot change... Everything else can change.” (16:13)

4. Acquisitions & the Business of Games and Sports

• Wordle and The Athletic: Contrasting Bets

  • Wordle purchase (for a low seven-figure sum) brought immense engagement:

    “My favorite thing about Wordle is that every minute of every day, 2,000 people share their Wordle score…” (20:05)

  • The Athletic, a costlier acquisition, is described as a long-term bet and already transforming both audience and advertiser relationships:

    “We have what I believe is the largest newsroom in sports... It's paying off in ways we didn't even expect.” (20:28 & 21:49)

• Acquisition as Audience Growth

  • Recognizing fastest audience growth in the South and Midwest—with The Athletic as a gateway to new demographics.

5. Talent, Influence, and Compensation in News

• The Rise of the Star Journalist
  • Times has adapted to a world where news “cogs” are now personality-driven “talents”:

    “We are also an institution that is a collection of individuals who absolutely make up the place… to do the best work of your life and have that work seen by a giant audience.” (29:31)

  • On compensation pressures for stars like Jodi Kantor and Maggie Haberman:

    “These guys are worth so much, so much. The proposition is we want to be the place where they can come and honestly have the time of their lives in the work and have incredible impact.” (31:47)

6. Video, YouTube, and The “Everything Is Television” Theory

• Video as a Distribution and Discovery Channel

  • The Times is increasing its presence on YouTube (Ezra Klein, Ross Douthat, Jonathan Swan) to meet audiences where they are:

    “The most important thing we can do... is get the work really widely seen.” (32:42)

• Not Just a TV Channel, But “Journalism Worth Paying For”

  • Big investments in production—but the business model remains consumer-first:

    “You could describe the business model of the New York Times in five words: make journalism worth paying for.” (36:45)

7. The Endorsements Debate

• On Political Influence and Editorial Endorsement
  • The Times’ recent retreat from major political endorsements sparks debate:

    “From the beginning of time until the end of time, the real power of the New York Times is to give people understanding... The most important way we go about doing that is unearthing new facts.” (38:20)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Engagement with everything we do is undoubtedly good for business.” — Meredith Kopit Levien (06:53)
• “If it were good for business or bad for business, we're gonna do it the same way.” — Meredith Kopit Levien (05:43)
• “They [the Sulzbergers] chose to be millionaires rather than billionaires… to deliver on the mission, which is for the public.” — Ben Smith & Meredith Kopit Levien (10:41)
• On AI licensing:
  “Where that doesn’t happen, we are prepared to enforce our rights because the stakes are really, really high here for everybody.” — Meredith Kopit Levien (13:37)
• On acquisitions and strategy:
  “Can you make really big calls about where the industry is going to go and, like, actually commit to them and give them time to play out?” — Meredith Kopit Levien (18:35)
• On talent:
  “We want to be the place where they can come and honestly have the time of their lives in the work and have incredible impact.” — Meredith Kopit Levien (31:47)
• On the Times' ultimate business model:
  “Make journalism worth paying for.” — Meredith Kopit Levien (36:45)

Timestamps of Key Segments

• 04:07 — Cannes observations; “math and machines” vs. brand values in marketing.
• 05:43 — Is adversarial journalism bad for business? (“If it were good for business or bad for business, we're gonna do it the same way.”)
• 06:53 — Engagement as business engine.
• 08:15 — Family control, governance, and protecting journalistic independence.
• 11:20 — The Times’ approach to AI, commercial and legal strategies.
• 14:20 — Why the Times partnered with Amazon but sued OpenAI.
• 16:13 — Deliberation vs. speed in adapting to tech change.
• 20:05 — Wordle: Viral engagement and strategic value.
• 21:49 — The Athletic: Unexpected business and marketing upsides.
• 29:31 — Valuing and retaining star talent in modern journalism.
• 32:42 — The Times’ YouTube/video strategy.
• 36:45 — “Making journalism worth paying for”: The business model in five words.
• 38:20 — Times’ philosophy on endorsements and influence.

Final Reflections & Takeaways

• Hosts Ben Smith and Max Tani marvel at how far the Times has progressed—outlasting digital disruptors through deliberate, mission-driven bets, building “defenses” (games, sports, lifestyle products) around tough journalism.
• Kopit Levien depicts the Times as both a “brand for the ages” and an ambitious digital innovator—careful but strategic, aiming to engage huge audiences without sacrificing journalistic core values.
• The episode closes with speculation on The Times’ next possible acquisitions—pointing to the need for younger, Gen Z-facing franchises and creator-driven verticals as the next frontier for audience growth.

This summary captures the core tone: brisk, candid, both earnest and pragmatic. It balances behind-the-scenes strategic reflections with big questions about the future of journalism, tech partnerships, and the evolving value propositions in the news industry.