Podcast Summary: Mixed Signals from Semafor Media

Episode: Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer on Turning Foreign Policy into a Podcast
Date: February 20, 2026
Host(s): Max Tawney and Ben Smith
Guests: Jake Sullivan & John Finer

Overview

In this episode, media reporters Max Tawney and Ben Smith sit down with former National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan and former Deputy National Security Advisor John Finer. Now podcast hosts of "The Long Game" for Vox Media, Sullivan and Finer discuss the challenges of translating complex foreign policy for a general audience, the shifting information landscape, and the evolving relationship between government communication, the media, and public understanding, all while reflecting on their own transition from policymakers to media figures.

Main Themes

• Bringing foreign policy to the masses: Sullivan and Finer explain their move from high-level government roles to podcasting, aiming to demystify foreign policy for non-experts.
• Media’s evolving influence on policy and public opinion: The conversation explores how media shapes international events and perceptions, especially in conflicts like Ukraine and Israel-Palestine.
• Transparency, disinformation, and AI: The guests share concerns about the impact of misinformation and artificial intelligence on global information flows.
• Communicating across political divides: The group reflects on public skepticism, the challenges of messaging to the American middle class, and lessons learned from the Trump years and recent world events.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. From the Situation Room to the Podcast Studio

[03:48]

• Ben Smith asks if podcasting feels like a letdown after running American foreign policy.

  • Jake Sullivan:
    "Well, I'll tell you, it's a big weight off the shoulders, that's for sure. Cuz I can say just whatever I think without having to worry too much as to whether it conforms to the President's policy..."
    (04:10)
  • He emphasizes the medium lets them "talk like an actual human being as opposed to a talking points machine."

• Both note the “nuts and bolts” of media production are more challenging than they realized.

2. Gaining Respect for the Media & Reframing Policy

[05:20 – 08:01]

• John Finer:
  • He began his career as a journalist and “came in with some inherent sympathy or empathy for what the media tries to do,” but like other officials, was sometimes frustrated with media coverage.
• Jake Sullivan:
  • Now better appreciates "making sense of events" for the public and having to explain the 'why' and 'what then'.
  • The act of explaining policy to the public forces them to "pressure test priorities and ideas," referencing episodes on military force and semiconductor controls.

3. Why Foreign Policy Needs Media Translation

[08:01 – 13:20]

• John Finer:

  • The Trump phenomenon exploited a “disconnect between people making policy and people who...aren’t marinating in this stuff all day.”
    • The challenge: “Stop taking for granted that people see things as we do.”

• The podcast arose from a conversation during a hiking trip after they left government.

  • Jake Sullivan:
    "We thought there was room for a foreign policy podcast that wasn’t about hot takes and wasn’t super partisan, but that was actually just trying to explain the why..."
    (09:32)

• Vox Media reached out serendipitously, and the podcast was born.

4. Audience Reception & Purpose

[11:04 – 13:20]

• Audience: Mix of global officials, former colleagues, and general listeners interested in world affairs.
• Considering adding a listener mailbag segment.
• Aim: To reach beyond the “plugged in,” toward those who “aren’t living it day to day.”
  • Jake Sullivan:
    “We hear from people across the US, parts of Europe, other places...looking for decent content.”

5. The Challenge of Demystifying Policy for Americans

[13:20 – 16:26]

• Ben Smith:
  Suggests efforts to make foreign policy about middle-class concerns “didn’t land.”
• Jake Sullivan:
  • Admits communication and media environment make it “not easy.”
  • Cites Ukraine as a case where “media underestimated the American people...support for Ukraine has stood up pretty well.”
• John Finer:
  • Contrasts public interest in Ukraine with war fatigue over Iraq; clear “perpetrator and victim” narrative resonated.

6. Declassifying and Preempting Russian Disinformation

[16:26 – 19:00]

• The U.S. declassified intelligence on Russian moves in Ukraine to thwart disinformation.

  • Jake Sullivan:
    “It became essential for us to essentially narrate the war...we needed to lay all that down in advance so that Putin could not successfully own the narrative.”
  • Application of these lessons in the U.S.-China relationship, particularly around messaging on export controls.

• John Finer:

  • Describes initial disbelief of U.S. intelligence among allies and even Ukrainians
  • Declassification prepared the West for sanctions and weapons support in sync with evidence.

7. Media Wars and Information in Israel–Palestine

[20:42 – 24:49]

• Ben Smith:
  • Asks how to handle conflicting narratives from Israeli and Palestinian sources.
• John Finer:
  • "A good general proposition is not to take any presentation at face value, to sort of seek independent corroboration, whether from media, from other governments, from international organizations." (20:56)
• Jake Sullivan:
  • Argues lack of foreign journalist access to Gaza is a “significant problem…setting back the cause of transparency.”
• Al Jazeera plays a potent narrative role for the Palestinian cause.
  • Governments increasingly invest in “propaganda” and shaping the information environment.
  • U.S. watched Al Jazeera but didn’t try to influence its coverage directly.

8. The Challenge of AI and Disinformation

[26:55 – 30:31]

• Max Tawney:
  Raises the threat of generative AI and LLMs in the future information landscape.
• John Finer:
  • Warns, "We no longer have a common factual basis...We used to always have wildly divergent views about policy...But at least we started from a common set of basic facts. We don't even have that factual foundation anymore." (27:35)
• Jake Sullivan:
  • U.S. government pursued voluntary watermarking with AI companies, but implementation remains “uneven.”
  • Threat: AI content is now “so damn good...there’s a real question as to whether democracies...are going to be able to withstand this flood.”

9. Media Events and the Politics of Communication

[30:31 – 34:37]

• Reaction to recent public appearances by AOC and others at the Munich Security Conference.
  • Jake Sullivan:
    • On AOC: Being pressed on Taiwan forced a visible, tough answer, revealing difficulties with strategic ambiguity.
    • On Rubio: Civil tone but substance unchanged from Trump years, fueling European skepticism about US commitments.
      • “A velvet glove over the same policy that is still a policy that fundamentally disrespects and undermines the transatlantic relationship…” (31:07)
  • John Finer:
    • Rubio as “the designated driver of the Trump administration” – polite, but same destination.

10. Who Are the Foreign Policy Heavyweights for 2028?

[34:37 – 35:47]

• Finer: Experience matters, but fluency can be acquired (e.g., Obama). Biden entered with far more direct foreign policy experience. Sidesteps naming contenders.
  • Jake Sullivan:
    "I'll take any of them over what we got." (35:44)

11. The Risks & Rewards of Ex-officials Podcasting

[36:31 – 38:39]

• Do they risk revealing classified information?
  • Jake Sullivan:
    • “Definitely. Of course, we wouldn't reveal any of that. We have to be careful policing that line...we're not at 100% of being purely human yet...beyond the classified filter, there's still the kind of public official filter..."
• Denies any Senate run in Minnesota.

Notable Quotes

• "A big part of the job of being a journalist or a commentator...is trying to make sense of events. Not just the what, but the why."
  — Jake Sullivan (05:55)

• "One of the things...policy makers have not done as effectively...is stop taking for granted that people in the United States see things the way we do."
  — John Finer (08:01)

• "We thought there was room for a foreign policy podcast that wasn’t about hot takes and wasn’t super partisan, but that was actually just trying to explain the why."
  — Jake Sullivan (09:32)

• "We no longer have a common factual basis on which we develop our opinions and analyze the issues we face."
  — John Finer on challenges of AI and disinformation (27:35)

• "...you don't want to just undo your ability to collect intelligence by revealing this stuff. And it allowed us to be ready. And the Ukrainians, ultimately, once they were persuaded, to be ready when the war began."
  — John Finer on pre-invasion intelligence (19:00)

• "A good general proposition is not to take any presentation at face value, to sort of seek independent corroboration, whether from media, from other governments, from international organizations."
  — John Finer (20:56)

• "We're not at 100% of being purely human yet...there's still the kind of public official filter...we are just trying to tear that...down."
  — Jake Sullivan on podcast authenticity (36:35)

Important Timestamps

• 03:48 – Reaction to leaving public service for podcasting
• 05:20 – 06:33 – Insight into reporting and explaining foreign policy
• 09:32 – Origin story of "The Long Game" podcast
• 13:45 – Discussing the failure/success of making foreign policy relatable
• 16:26 – US intelligence/media strategy at the start of Ukraine war
• 20:42 – Info warfare in the Israel-Palestine conflict
• 26:55 – The threat and challenge of AI/LLM-generated misinformation
• 31:07 – Assessing politicians’ communication style at Munich Security Conference
• 36:35 – The line between transparency and classified information

Memorable/Lighthearted Moments

• Jake Sullivan (09:32):
  “Max, when I was a young man growing up in Minneapolis, Minnesota, I thought, one day I will be a podcaster.”

• Jake Sullivan (38:09):
  (On the rumor he might run for Senate in Minnesota):
  “...the answer to that question is definitely no. And that's not a ‘I’m just happy doing what I’m doing’... No, I'm not running for Senate in Minnesota."

• John Finer (38:21):
  “And now that Jake's not running, I'm going to have to look hard.”

Recap & Reflections (from Hosts):

[39:23 – 43:50]

• Ben and Max reflect on the unique role Sullivan and Finer are carving out—using podcasting both to process and shape how foreign policy is understood.
• They highlight the difficulties of communicating policy clearly, the enduring issues around Gaza and U.S. policy, and why Sullivan and Finer may not be “podcasters for life” but may return to high government roles.

Final Thoughts

This episode offers a sharp, candid, and at times humorous look at the intersection of government, media, and the public in a new era of information warfare. Sullivan and Finer’s reflections—filtered through their experiences at the highest levels—shed light on both the opportunities and challenges of communicating foreign policy in an age of AI, social mistrust, and information overload. Their podcast aims not just to “explain the why,” but to rebuild trust and transparency between policymakers and the public.