← Mixed Signals from Semafor Media
Mixed Signals from Semafor Media
Jeffrey Goldberg on "SignalGate," Trump's charm offensive, and why The Atlantic is winning
00:47:51
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- [00:01]
Jeffrey Goldberg
Here's a good rule when you're killing someone, even if that person should be killed because they're an evil terrorist, like, don't act like a child when you're doing it, you know, it's not a video game.
- [00:18]
Max Tawney
Welcome to another episode of the Mixed Signals podcast from us here at Semaphore Media, where we are talking to all of the most important and interesting people shaping our new media age. I'm Max Tawney. I'm the media editor here at Semaphorm, and with me, as always, is our Editor in chief, Ben Smith. Ben, I'm curious. We're recording this on a Tuesday. It's been 10 days since the US strikes on Iran. Have you been glued to these random Twitter accounts that are, you know, sharing all of this crazy footage from inside Iran and these strikes and whatnot? I feel like my feed just all of a sudden filled up with Osint Defender and various accounts like that are just sharing crazy stuff. Is that just me or is that happening to you and other as well?
- [01:05]
Ben Smith
Yeah, I mean, you know, this honestly made me think for a minute of what would the Iraq invasion have been like if media were then flooded with this sort of all these perspectives essentially from the receiving end of these weapons, which it changes the people's idea of what a precision military strike is and just what that looks like on the ground. It's also, I think it's just much harder than ever to find your way through social media, know what's real and what's not. I'm just getting tricked by AI these days now in a way that is really new.
- [01:32]
Max Tawney
So our guest on the show this week is somebody who is spending a lot of time sifting through what's real and what's not and making sure that his reporters and journalists are doing the same thing. That's Jeffrey Goldberg. He's the editor in chief of the Atlantic. Jeff is joining us on the one year anniversary of his just insane world breaking scoop, which is now known as Signalgate, in which he was added on accident into a secret group chat on the messaging app Signal, with pretty much everyone who is a senior figure in the administration who's not named Donald Trump. Ben, I would imagine you, like many other journalists, were a little bit jealous that even though your phone number is in the cell phones of some of these individuals that you were not added to this chat. But you've known Jeff for a really long time. Why did you think we should have him on the show this week?
- [02:23]
Ben Smith
Yeah, I mean, honestly, like Jeff, among Other things just has incredible, like, news luck. There's no other way to put it like that. Just that's the sort of thing that happens to him. I mean, I think for good journalists, you know, you put yourself in a position to get lucky. But what an absurd kind of story that really remains pretty defining for the Trump administration. I'm eager to talk to him about that, and I'm eager to talk to him about, you know, the steady growth and success of the Atlantic. That's not a story. You hear about a lot of media outlets these days, a lot of century old, you know, gonna be approaching 200 years. Outlets that are putting one foot in front of the other, growing, profitable, and hiring up pretty much every journalist in town.
- [03:01]
Max Tawney
Yeah, we want to talk about that. We obviously also want to ask him about his perspective on the war in Iran, what's happened, and how Israel has changed. This is a story that he's been covering for years. He's been described at various points as one of the most preeminent American journalists covering Israel and has been doing so for decades. We want to ask him about his relationship with Donald Trump and also his relationship with Washington Post owner Jeff Bezos. Jeff Goldberg has a lot of thoughts on the Post, which was the first job that he had in journalism. I think this episode is going to get into a lot of really interesting stuff because Jeff is an opinionated individual who is very often in the room while these important decisions are being made. But Jeff is actually a little bit early today. He's waiting for us, so why don't we bring him in right after this?
- [03:58]
Ben Smith
So, Jeffrey, thank you so much for joining us. We're having you on. On the first anniversary of the journalistic holiday known as Signal Gate. For those who observe, alternate side of
- [04:07]
Jeffrey Goldberg
the street parking is suspended for Signal Gate. Do people know that joke outside of New York City? Is that like a joke people know as.
- [04:14]
Max Tawney
As someone who has to move their car once a week? I. I liked it.
- [04:17]
Jeffrey Goldberg
I thought just once a week.
- [04:18]
Ben Smith
We have some listeners in New York City. It's a. It's a media show. But you wrote this week that there have basically been no consequences for anybody involved. Hagseth's running the war Waltz actually basically got promoted in the end. The Atlantic thriving. And I wonder, stepping back, like Signal.
- [04:36]
Jeffrey Goldberg
Signal doing very well. They were.
- [04:37]
Ben Smith
Signal's doing amazing. Everybody's still on Signal. I mean, I think that sort of was what you were weighing in this big piece you wrote this week. Like, what do you make of that? Total lack of consequences.
- [04:46]
Jeffrey Goldberg
I don't have a broad philosophical conclusion to draw from the fact that there's no accountability in this particular administration. I can't write that out past this administration. But it is remarkable that of all the. Of all the people not to suffer any consequences for this, it's the person in charge of a large organization where you would be court martialed for doing what he did. If he weren't the Defense Secretary, he'd be court martialed. I mean, if he were in uniform for doing what he did. And what annoys me about the fallout of Signal is that literally the inspector General of the Pentagon says that Pete Hegseth endangered the lives of pilots. Says it. It's right there in the IG report. And Pete Hegseth comes out and says total exoneration. And then we move on to the next thing. You know, it's like the. It's funny because it's almost like a joke of about the worst of journalism, which is like Hitler says he's a you friendly guy. Critics disagree. You know, I don't know. It's like there is a truth here, and that is that Hegseth endangered the lives of American pilots and he gets to say he's exonerated and then we just move on. I'm not saying that he should have suffered this consequence or that I don't know what should have happened, but I know that any army private to general who did the same thing would have been held to account. And I think it's very important as a leader that the leaders subject themselves to the same disciplines that they subject others to.
- [06:31]
Max Tawney
It's interesting that you say that, you know, you're not sure what should have happened or you don't kind of come to the conclusion, because I came to the conclusion reading the piece that you wrote about this for the one year anniversary that you thought Hegseth probably should have been fired and that was maybe.
- [06:47]
Jeffrey Goldberg
Well, I'm not saying. I'm saying I don't know which pathway. Let me be very specific. I don't know if it's a disciplinary process. I don't know if it's a criminal process. I don't know if it's an administrative process. I mean, in an ordinary administration, the president would have said, like, buddy, you're on probation at best or at worst. You know what? This isn't working out. Mike Walsh, who is the person who did add me into the chat, to be fair, Mike Waltz did get removed from his role as National Security Advisor, but that was coming anyway because he had A very bad relationship with a lot of people in the White House, as the line on Mike Waltz was that he forgot that he was staff and he treated Susie Wiles poorly. And first rule of Fight Club is that you don't treat Susie Wiles poorly and expect to get away with it. But then it's been noted, as I wrote in the piece, this is kind of a New York observation too, but the job of U.S. ambassador to the United nations is a pretty cushy job. And Mike Waltz got that. It's not a powerful job in the same way as National Security advisor, but it's also not staff. You get to call yourself ambassador. You're not just staffing the president. So it's.
- [07:54]
Max Tawney
Yeah, you get to hang out with Nicki Minaj, I guess, when she comes
- [07:56]
Jeffrey Goldberg
to speak, apparently all the time.
- [07:58]
Max Tawney
You wrote something else in the piece that stuck out. You said of Trump. In fact, he found it professionally riveting, carefully studying the way in which the Atlantic temporarily dominated the news cycle. What do you mean by that? What were you.
- [08:10]
Jeffrey Goldberg
I mean, that's what he wanted to talk about. I mean, the reason he invited me over was. And he pretty much acknowledged it, is that I scare quotes here. I won that round. We have had fights before, and he was angry at me for reporting X, Y, or Z, but this time, in his mind, I won the round. So he said, I'm having you over as a sign of respect, because in his universe, the currency is attention. And it's like, wait, I seized the news cycle from him. I got them. And, you know to.
- [08:46]
Ben Smith
You're like two warlords.
- [08:48]
Jeffrey Goldberg
Yeah, that's the way I like to think of it, Ben. Two warlords. No, we're not. No, it's like, all right, I gotta deal with this. I gotta deal with this guy again. Because he got me or he got my guys. And, you know, the funniest part of this was I said, what's the. You know, I asked him when I saw him right after this whole thing went down, I said, what's the lesson for you? And he said, the lesson, paraphrasing the lesson, is that you. You got a lot of attention. And I said, no, what's the lesson? Like, what's the national security. This is an enormous. I thought I did immodestly. I thought I did the country a bit of a favor by exposing a huge breach in national security communication systems. Right? And then he had. To me, it's sort of the best answer because this is the Catskills comedian that's embedded in Donald Trump. People again outside of New York don't understand this, but he has the rhythm and temperament and style of a Catskillist comedian. And I said, so what's the national security consequences lesson of signal gate? And he says, don't use signal maybe, which I thought was genius. And by the way, true. Right. It was just sort of like, don't you signal maybe? I mean, he was like your grandfather sitting on a bench on Ocean Parkway. You know, it's just like wild to me.
- [10:16]
Max Tawney
Was that the last time that you talked to him or is he, you know, are you guys talking on the phone like many other reporters these days? And also, what's your relationship been like with him and how has it kind of changed over the years? I feel like a lot of people in media have these now, I guess, you know, a decade plus or many more decades long relationship with Trump.
- [10:34]
Jeffrey Goldberg
Yeah, I'm not gonna talk about who I talk to or who I don't talk to. I would say that a relationship seems in some ways different now after this. So our relationship just, I mean, it's kind of a big word for, you know, something that was very, you know, part time. Our relationship really went south in 2020 when I reported that he had referred to American soldiers, fallen American soldiers, as suckers and losers. And that got a lot of attention in the lead up to the election. And he was infuriated by that story and he called me all kinds of names. And I mean, this is not the first time that he called the Atlantic or me names, but that was a real, a real moment of soreness. And, you know, I was a radical left wing lunatic. You know, all the sort of things that scumbag journalist and all the sort of things that he says. It kind of did shift. I mean, you know, his ever shifting moods suggest to me that he would, he could come back at the Atlantic at any moment and attack us or something. But since Signalgate, he really hasn't. And he's, you know, I would say that he's talked to us. That's all I would say because it's been on the record some of these encounters. He's talked to us regularly or semi regularly. So it really did shift. And you know, the funny thing about our first meeting after the signal business, he invites me over, people here at work, other people said, oh my God, you're going to end up in El Salvador. You know, there's going to be a chute under your chair or whatever. And I'm like, no, you don't understand. Donald Trump he's gonna be super solicitous. He's inviting me over to charm me. He believes himself, not incorrectly, to be one of the world's most charming people. And sure enough, it was, why don't we talk more often? You're so smart. How come you don't come by. I mean, literally, how come you don't come by, like, cheers or something? Like, why don't you ever stop by the bar? And I was like, happy to come by, Mr. President. It's the Oval Office. We talked a lot about the Oval Office, obviously talked about chandeliers. He was like, I gotta ask you. And he points to the ceiling and he says, should I do a chandelier right here? And he says, classy. And I said, cause I don't care. Obviously. I said, you know, Mr. President, I'm real traditionalist when it comes to the Oval Office. And this is like part of the conversation that was sort of informal but really, really funny. And I really am a traditionalist. And he goes, it's so boring. And I was like, it's not boring. Like it's the Oval Office. And then he said something that was so amusing to me. It just shows how he's sort of not fully inhabiting the role. He says, you don't understand. I have very important people come in here. I mean, the Secretary General of NATO was just here. And I'm like, and you're the president. I have very. It was almost like the hotel guy. It's really interesting. He's the hotel guy. It's like, I have important people come to this hotel. We're a five star hotel. Like, we gotta keep this lobby looking good. You don't know who's gonna walk in here, movie stars. And it was just. I'm fascinated by what he's done with the Oval Office and everything else. And so I found that part really intriguing.
- [13:50]
Ben Smith
But I guess I wonder. There's a theory, and some people have written, that he kind of represents the pinnacle, but of a kind of new kind of leader, new kind of media figure of a leader. And the other names, the people sort of like this. Sometimes people mention Bukele in El Salvador. Netanyahu is another.
- [14:09]
Jeffrey Goldberg
I mean, you remember this going back 30, 40 years, that Bibi's rise was due to his fluency in media of the 80s. Right. I mean, he was one of Ted Koppel's on Nightline, one of Ted Koppel's most regular guests. I think Bibi believes himself to be Trump's equal in agenda setting and media manipulation. I don't think he is. I think Bukele is actually more. A more modern equivalent of Bukele is just. So when Bibi tries to insert himself into a social media discourse, or his office does or whatever, it seems awkward. Bukele seems more natural at it.
- [14:53]
Ben Smith
Totally native.
- [14:54]
Jeffrey Goldberg
I mean, I think Trump is sui generis. I mean, you read his Truth Social post, and no one in the world would ever get away with that stuff except for Trump. I don't even know how to think about it. But, yeah, it's the entertainer.
- [15:06]
Ben Smith
And then what do you think of his more serious efforts to really kind of exert control and power over big media institutions? I mean, there's TikTok, but there's also, you know, CBS.
- [15:16]
Jeffrey Goldberg
What do I think about it? I'm not for it.
- [15:19]
Ben Smith
How do you think Bari Weiss is navigating it?
- [15:22]
Jeffrey Goldberg
I think Barry is a force of nature. And anyone who underestimates Barry's ability to succeed is kidding themselves. I put myself in the anti Bari Weiss camp right now. I feel like it's gotten like. In other words, I think that the criticism of Barry is sometimes too premature. I think sometimes it's deserved. What I really want to do is for myself, for my own curiosity, I really want to report it out. I want to understand how decisions are being made inside cbs. And I want to understand the crucial link between Ellison and. And Barry. I have my doubts that it's as blatant as some people think.
- [16:10]
Ben Smith
But it's not criticism of Barry to say there's this obvious shadow hanging over that institution.
- [16:15]
Jeffrey Goldberg
No, no, look, writ large, it's an absurd situation. I mean, the guy. The Ellison family has bought these properties. They are hopelessly conflicted, hopelessly entangled, just like Jeff Bezos. They have more important fish to fry than preserving the journalistic independence of the institutions that they bought. They've got, you know, hundreds of billions of dollars on the line. That's why Jeff Bezos made the decision that the Washington Post is worth sacrificing to protect the rocket business. And I think Ellison, it's fundamentally clear. I'm separating out. I think Barry has walked into some traps, obviously. I think Barry went too fast at cbs. And one of the questions I would have in reporting this out is, did she go fast and break too many things because that's Barry's nature, her management nature? Or was that David Ellison saying, we've got to show the White House quickly that we mean business here in order to get deals done? I don't know. These are all questions and all I'm saying is there's a lot that's admirable about Barry. We haven't spoken in, I don't know, a couple of years. I don't. I'm not in touch with. With Barry, but there's a lot that's admirable. And there's also a little bit of. I find this kind of discourse around CBS a little bit too precious. The Tiffany network. And it's like, oh, okay, so. So one of the networks is going to tilt center right. As opposed to the other networks that tilt center left.
- [17:50]
Ben Smith
Yeah. As their ratings steadily decline. In any other.
- [17:53]
Jeffrey Goldberg
So. So, like. Yeah, so. So what? So I. Classic case to me of I don't know nearly enough about the actual dynamics. And I want to reserve most of my judgment until I could figure out what level of corruption there is or how the editorial product is being corrupted, if it is being corrupted. Have you interviewed Barry on this? I don't think I.
- [18:14]
Max Tawney
We tried.
- [18:15]
Ben Smith
No, we tried. You know, actually, she doesn't do a lot. It's interesting. She doesn't seem to want to. And I always think this is a mistake for media people. Like, you might as well do the interviews or else questions.
- [18:24]
Jeffrey Goldberg
You might as well just say what's on your mind. And she wouldn't.
- [18:27]
Ben Smith
She wouldn't come to our media summit. So, you know, we got. We got a bunch of other big interviews. But there's another piece of the reporting on CBS I wanted to ask you about or sort of around it, which is. And this is basically Max's reporting, not. Not speculation, as you say. Like, part of it is, you know, what you described as a corrupt deal with Trump. Part of it is the Ellisons were very. Were very unhappy, as Sherry Redstone was before, with the network's coverage of Israel. And I guess I wondered just like, in a sort of broad sense, like, you're probably the American journalist I know who has covered Israel most deeply in your career. First time I watch To Israel, I don't know if you remember this. I called you and sort of from the street of Jerusalem and was like, hey, who should I talk to? How should I do this? And this was like 15 years ago. You moved there as a young man, served in the idf. You've been thinking about this stuff a long time, and I'm curious if the last few years have changed your perspective on, I guess, particularly on how the American media covers Israel.
- [19:17]
Jeffrey Goldberg
Pass. Can we not talk about this?
- [19:19]
Ben Smith
It's just too. Too big a topic, too long.
- [19:21]
Jeffrey Goldberg
I don't know what to think anymore. I mean, I don't know what's your actual question? And I'll try to answer.
- [19:27]
Ben Smith
I feel like I've revised a lot of my thinking on the media and Israel, on the way Israel sees the US Just since in the last few years it feels like I've changed a lot and it's something I'm trying to get my arms around. Was curious if you think that or if this is more just a complicated story that keeps rolling.
- [19:43]
Jeffrey Goldberg
Well, yeah, of course it's a complicated story that keeps rolling. I think it's actually a story going back to a point you were making earlier. I think it's a story about Netanyahu as much as anything else. I mean, I think Netanyahu looms so large over the coverage of Israel in America, the perception of Israel in America, the perception of. I mean, and again, he doesn't speak to me anymore. I used to talk to him. I used to interview him fairly regularly. But he, I mean, look, I don't write about this very much. I don't write very much about this.
- [20:15]
Ben Smith
But that's sort of interesting that your Persona, I mean, that's pretty telling that you're Persona non grata with him, given that you're of the center basically, in some sense. Right.
- [20:23]
Jeffrey Goldberg
Well, in Israel I would be in
- [20:27]
Ben Smith
the left because the center's moved, I guess.
- [20:30]
Jeffrey Goldberg
Well, I would be, I would be on the left center or whatever. I'd be in the fatalist, realist camp. That and it's, and it's more comfortable to be on the left when you're in Israel, when you're outside of Israel, which is to say, you know, there's so much, there's so much genocidal garbage directed at Israel in certain quarters in America, certainly in Europe. You know, the, the idea that Israel is like an illegitimate country that should be annihilated, that puts people who still believe that a two state solution is the only solution, that the settlement project has been a big mistake, moral and political, and that the Hamas continued to fantastical belief that it can destroy the Jews has led to incredible damage. I mean, everybody, you know, I mean, I'm in the fatalist camp, which is like everybody has screwed this up beyond measure. And I include, and I've written that I include Netanyahu for, among other things, bringing an extremist into his government and allowing the settlement project to possibly obviate the creation of a Palestinian state. Yeah, so I haven't interviewed. It's actually funny, I did the first interview with him when he became prime minister the first time, if I recall correctly, and I knew him in the early 90s. It's interesting. He won't talk. He won't. I haven't talked to him in probably seven or eight years.
- [21:59]
Max Tawney
Was there a precipitating event? Was there one story? Was there something that happened?
- [22:03]
Jeffrey Goldberg
You know, it was the original Iran deal issues where I thought. But I thought the Iran deal was weak but worth pursuing more in the Obamacare. Except Obama probably wouldn't have ever said that it was weak because of the ballistic missile exclusion, among other things. But Netanyahu and Ron Dermer thought that I was one of those people who was flying top cover for a week Obama inspired Iran deal, you know, So I think it stems from that. And, you know, it's interesting because I'm not. I mean, I don't make any secret of this. And, you know, that's one of the funny parts of the signal business is like, I'm anti Houthi. I mean, Houthi's motto is death to America, death to Israel, a curse upon the Jews. It's like they're hitting all my erogenous zones there. You know, like, go find, fight the Houthis. Just don't tell me about it beforehand. And the Houthis are an Iranian, you know, sponsored organization Iranians.
- [23:03]
Ben Smith
Hold on. You do have like, I feel like, as talking and let's get onto the Atlantic right after this. But there's something about like, that you're. You're trying very hard, and I think it's just like hard now to hold a kind of centrist, or maybe you say, like, kind of doomed fatalist position. There was a line in the piece that struck me that I kind of laughed out loud, but also was like, I don't know about this, which was the Houthis are despicable. Terrorists, in my opinion, should be fought and defeated. But there was still something disturbing about the proliferation of emoji.
- [23:31]
Jeffrey Goldberg
Yeah, well, that's like these.
- [23:32]
Ben Smith
It just feels like you're like, trying to hold this position of.
- [23:36]
Jeffrey Goldberg
Right. I think when you're killing.
- [23:37]
Ben Smith
But like, could we stop with the emoji?
- [23:39]
Jeffrey Goldberg
Here's my. Yeah, here's a good rule. When you're killing someone, even if that person should be killed because they're an evil terrorist. Like, don't act like a fucking child when you're doing it. You know, it's not a video game.
- [23:52]
Ben Smith
But I think you're like the only person left in that camp, Jeffrey.
- [23:54]
Max Tawney
Right.
- [23:55]
Ben Smith
Like, you have like some large share of the country is like, no, it's a video game and it's fun and emojis. And then the other half think that we should not be attacking the Houthis. It feels like you're in a very lonely position.
- [24:05]
Jeffrey Goldberg
I don't know most people in the country, it's a big country, I would assume. I actually make the converse, but I
- [24:11]
Ben Smith
thought most glimpses were.
- [24:12]
Jeffrey Goldberg
No, but let me finish. I actually make the converse conclusion that I'm pretty much on most issues where 60 to 70% of people in America are on most issues. And that's where I kind of want the Atlantic to be. I know you want to keep talking about Israel and you want to get me in trouble for saying something, but the truth is, I don't know.
- [24:33]
Ben Smith
We're not trying very hard here, Jeff.
- [24:34]
Jeffrey Goldberg
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's true. You're not even bringing your A game. The truth is, I love being editor of the Atlantic, but I am a frustrated reporter in that, you know, in the subjects that I've written about for 30 years, whether it's Afghanistan, Pakistan or Israel, Palestine or whatever, I would like to go back to these places and spend a long time and figure it out for myself. And I trust what I'm getting less and less, especially through social. I mean, when the New York Times reports X just happened in the west bank or X just happened in Gaza, I more or less believe the New York Times. I think there's biases in different publications that lean in different directions. Sure. And I can discount for those. But I think it's basically reality. But I need to go figure this out for myself eventually because I haven't really dealt with the fact. Let's use Israel. One more moment, if you don't mind. I haven't fully dealt with the fact in writing that there are two Kahana oriented extremists in the Israeli cabinet running crucial ministries. I dealt with the fact a long time ago that Hamas wants to kill all the Jews. I know that part. But I haven't dealt really in journalism or journalistically with, with what's the change in Israeli politics. And if you don't mind, one more minute on this, this is, to me amazing. And this is something that I think about all the time. I was working at the Jerusalem Post when Meir Kahane was murdered in New York. This is like 1990 or something.
- [26:06]
Ben Smith
And this, for people who don't know, is a Jewish leader who Brooklyn based on the States.
- [26:09]
Jeffrey Goldberg
Yeah, he was the extremist, fascist New York born, but moved to Israel, ran for the Knesset, but was banned by Israeli law from being in the Knesset as a racist. You can't have a racist party in the Knesset. And. And at his funeral, went by where the Jerusalem Post was, you know, 10,000 people marching or whatever. And some of these young activists, you know, kind of crazy lunatic activists, were chasing Arabs. They're trying to find Arabs on the street and beat them. And a lot of us in the neighborhood, you know, we were out there and we were like, people, like, hiding, like Arab guys, like, just go into this office, stay there for a couple hours, and then, like, go home when these lunatics leave. And what I realized then, I have to figure this out. I think Itamar Ben gvir, who's now the Minister of Internal Security, was one of those. He would have been the right age, and he was a youth activist for that movement. And I just think about this all the time. It's like, well, how did. How did we get there? And I want. I do want to go back and do some reporting and just try to figure it out for myself, because I trust a lot of people on the subject, but I also trust my own eyeballs.
- [27:20]
Max Tawney
Well, we have to take a short break, but we'll be right back after this. So wanted to kind of take a step in a very different direction here and ask a big picture question. You have been in charge of the Atlantic for almost 10 years now. What is the Atlantic?
- [27:46]
Ben Smith
Now?
- [27:46]
Max Tawney
You've swallowed kind of key parts of the Washington Post. You've hired a lot of their top
- [27:50]
Jeffrey Goldberg
staff, swallowed key parts of the Washington Post, I think.
- [27:53]
Max Tawney
I mean, you took like half of their White House team, their national security staff. A lot of great reporters, great bylines that used to be in the Post are now writing for the Atlantic, which is a great coup. And you passed the New Yorker in terms of scale, in terms of the number of subscriptions you have.
- [28:07]
Jeffrey Goldberg
Yeah, we are actually the largest, by subscriptions, the largest magazine in the country, which is not something you would ever have imagined 20, 25 years ago.
- [28:16]
Max Tawney
Looking at kind of some of the recent hires, some of the big stories that you guys have had, you know, they're very scoop and very news driven. Do you consider the Atlantic to be more newsp? Is it magazine? Is it a first read, second read, only read?
- [28:31]
Jeffrey Goldberg
We're in that gray zone between first read and second read. I mean, obviously, everybody who reads the Atlantic or subscribes to the Atlantic certainly, I'm sure, reads a newspaper. I would imagine a large number of Them read the Times, the Journal, some of the Post, their local newspapers. I mean, we have a very educated population and a very engaged population and subscriber base. No, what I tell our staff, and it sounds like a line, but I actually believe it is that I think we're engaged in an experiment to combine what I think of as the best of newspapering with the best of magazine making. And I think it's possible to do. We still don't have homework in the way that a newspaper has homework. Sports, traffic and weather, you know what I mean? And we're not gonna do live blogs that iterative updates on. I mean, maybe we will one day. I don't even know. But like maybe, maybe we will get there. But I don't see that in the near future. But we are definitely. The web has allowed this to happen. We are definitely on the news in a way that the pre Internet Atlantic, of course was not on the news. It was a monthly magazine. It was about the past and the future and was about deep features and literary journalism and literature itself. But it wasn't about that. I think we can do all the things honestly, isn't that hard?
- [29:51]
Ben Smith
Like I feel like a culture clash. I really like even having worked in the Internet for 20 years. Think of myself as a newspaper guy and these magazine people with their style of editing where you like leave all these notes and it takes forever, just like makes me insane. The precious. I mean, we hire very similar magazine people. They want to kill me. Like, it feels like there's this culture clash that's very hard to deal with.
- [30:10]
Jeffrey Goldberg
We're managing, first of all, we hire smart people. Second, we hire nice people.
- [30:15]
Ben Smith
So that must be my problem. Yeah, well, we go for.
- [30:19]
Jeffrey Goldberg
We can. On our next episode, on our next session, we could talk about your problem. It's actually going. The absorption of a large number of Washington Post people is going much better than I thought it would because there would be a cult. Not just a culture clash, but a stylistic clash. I mean, I mean, I obviously prefer magazine look, I think you could take newspaper stories and invest them with magazine qualities, meaning idiosyncrasy and the writer's presence. And you know, I mean, they're basic iron laws of magazining that you could put in newspapers. Like just tell me the most interesting thing. Don't think about what's the most important thing. Tell me. Start with the most interesting thing. We'll get to the important thing has to do everything to do with lead writing. And like I, you know, and I tell and obviously Newspaper writers have a hard time doing this at first, but it's like, I want to know what you think, do the reporting. The scoops are great. The scoops are a source of propulsion and energy, among other things, and attention. But have the scoops add up to something. I just don't want to know a thing. I want to know why that thing is the way it is or how it happened, and then tell me all the way through what you think. I don't like the newspaper style of now. I interview a guy who says X and then this guy disagrees with him, and then in the end, who knows? I never found that satisfying. So maybe we can invent here a new kind of 360 way of doing a story. One of the things I talk about here all the time is it's like, let's try to do the second day story on the first day. It's like, project your mind out, what are people going to want to know tomorrow? And let's try to do it today. All these things are hard. You know what it is? It's the newspaper or it's the journalism corollary to the Buffet rule. Investing is simple but not easy. This is all very simple. It's just not easy to actually execute. It's very hard to build a story, as you guys know, that has narrative propulsion, scoops, beautiful writing, embedded argument. Right? You can't, you can't put all those things into every story, but you can try to get some combination of them so that, and, you know, the first and only rule is be interesting. Otherwise it doesn't matter.
- [32:22]
Max Tawney
It seems like you've gotten a lot out of the Washington Post reporters that you guys have hired over the last year. Listening to you.
- [32:29]
Jeffrey Goldberg
And editors, too.
- [32:30]
Max Tawney
You don't see the editors, but, but I am curious. Like, did they ever ask you? Did the Post. Did Bezos. Did they ever ask you if you wanted to. To run the Washington Post? I mean, I think part of the reason that they've struggled is that they've been, you know, somewhat adrift in between a lot of different editors in a few years. Did they ever approach you and ask you if you were interested? Interested?
- [32:47]
Jeffrey Goldberg
I'm trying to think of a reason not to answer this question, but I guess it's sort of all in the past now. I. I had a couple of weird conversations a while ago already, and I. I didn't want them to go anywhere because I love the Atlantic and I love what I'm doing, but I. It's attempting. It was a tempting idea in Theory in large part because I started at the Washington Post. I was a Washington Post intern, literally, sorry to say it, 40 years ago this summer, this coming summer. And I love the, and I started. I was a night police reporter at the Washington Post. And the glory to me, like, I mean, the first day as an intern, they sat me next to Ben Bradley at the intern lunch. I almost died. You know, I, I, I mean, it was the first famous person I ever met. And I can't believe this is the guy from all the President's Men sitting next to me. And so, like, I have a. I mean, this is why I'm so sad about the Washington Post, too, because, like, why did they take a great institution and destroy it? It doesn't make any. There's a lot in the world.
- [33:54]
Ben Smith
What do you think the answer to that question is? Because I don't, I think Occam's Razor
- [33:58]
Jeffrey Goldberg
tells me that, you know, sometimes people are just stupid and do stupid things. I mean, I don't want to get, I don't know what motivates Jeff Bezos to, to do what he does. Obviously, like, looking at the evidence from the outside is that Bezos or his team or whatever neglected to pay attention to the leaders that they had in place at the Washington Post. And I saw Bezos at a thing recently, and we talked about this a little bit, and, you know, he says the collapse of Google search really, really killed them. I believe that. I also believe that the Atlantic is using the same Google that the Washington Post is using, and it didn't kill us. So, like, there are other. Or didn't kill the New York Times, Certainly the.
- [34:40]
Max Tawney
Did you tell him that? Did you say, hey, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [34:44]
Jeffrey Goldberg
I mean, like, we're in the same. I mean, I literally, I think I used that line like, we're, we're in the same. I think it's the same Google.
- [34:50]
Max Tawney
Yeah.
- [34:51]
Jeffrey Goldberg
You know what I mean? But, you know, he, he, he, when I talked to him, he was, he seemed very committed to, you know, saving the Washington Post. I mean, he said this to me. He said this to other people, so I can quote it.
- [35:01]
Max Tawney
Yeah.
- [35:03]
Jeffrey Goldberg
Saying it to me, he said, I saved the Washington Post once and I'll save it again. You know, this opens the question of why did it, you know, head down anyway? I just find the whole thing sad. And so, like, going to the Washington Post could have been an interesting thing, but it never really was an operative. It wasn't an operative thing from their standpoint, necessarily, and it wasn't an Operative thing certainly in my mind, because I love where I am. I think you should buy it. And by you I mean Max, not Ben.
- [35:33]
Ben Smith
I think as its value diminishes, it's, you know, it's getting within his price range.
- [35:38]
Jeffrey Goldberg
No, no, it could be. What is, what is that? A dollar and the assumption of debt.
- [35:42]
Max Tawney
Yeah, well, I don't have $100 billion to lose. I gotta say.
- [35:46]
Ben Smith
Bezos, like, was one of I think four or five billionaires who I think genuinely in all good, like, you know, stepped in to rescue the American media after the great financial crisis. Benioff bought Time, Patrick Soonchong bought the LA Times, and Laureen Powell Jobs bought the Atlantic. And for kind of different reasons, but all of them I think revolving to some degree span neglect how annoying the news business is, how annoying journalists are the universal factors. We all have the same Google and we also all of the same annoying journalists like they all the rest of them got sick of it and in retrospect, not done damage to their reputations. I don't mean to ask such sort of a suck up question, but what is the sort of secret of Laureen Powell Jobs like the one good billionaire in this regard?
- [36:34]
Jeffrey Goldberg
She's got guts. First of all, character is important here. And she's a brave person. She's not a scared person, she's a patient person. And everybody should know this. We run at a profit and we run at a profit because she says you're running at a profit. There's no screwing around here. This isn't, I'm not running a charity. She spends plenty of money on worthy projects that don't pay a return. This is not, not one of them. And, and she also believes, and this is one of the things that I love about her, she also really believes that good journalism is worth paying for. Right. She never had that crisis of confidence where it's like, well, maybe people won't buy it. She's like, this is good. Charge more, get people to get people to read it and then ask them for money. Like that's, that's the formula. And, and you know, one of the great things about Lorene is that she says, look, and you make money, whatever profit you end up with at the end of the year, plow it back into the business, hire more journalists, do interesting things. I'll tell you this. I mean the very specific signal gate manifestation of this, which is like to me, the story of Lorene in a kind of way, you know, obviously it was a very fraught moment what we were doing and, you know, and a lot of advisors and attorneys floating around and all the rest. And it was decided, for very obvious reasons that we were not going to share specifics of the story with the ownership because there was all kinds of anxiety about, you know, consequences for them, consequences of the company if the government decided to pursue me or the Atlantic in some kind of way. Right. But she deserves. She owns the damn thing. She deserves to know that something. We're cooking up something. So through a turn. And I was. I talked to her regularly, text, phone, whatever, in person, but I was not talking to her in that period on purpose. But it was communicated to her through intermediaries that I'm working on a story. It has national security implications. The Trump administration might not like this story at all. It could have serious whatever consequences. And we just want you to know, but we're not going to tell you on purpose what it is. And the message that came back from Lorene instantly was, if the story is true and Jeff believes it's important to publish, then publish. Why are you even asking me? And it's like, you know, that is everything right there. That's the whole. That's the whole nine yards right there. That's gutsy, visionary, confident ownership by someone who understands what the free press does.
- [39:08]
Ben Smith
One of the, to me, smaller delights of the Atlantic lately has been a kind of stunt casting that you're doing, like putting brilliant writers in places that are, like, personally very strange and uncomfortable for them. And I sort of wondered how you think about that and where that's coming from.
- [39:24]
Jeffrey Goldberg
It comes from me. That's what I love to do. When I was young, Journal, I would do that when I was at the New York Times Magazine. I would like, you know, try to hang out with weird people. Look, the greatest joy of journalism. Yes. We're here to save democracy, and we're here to inject more truth into the universe and all those other things. Is it true? The greatest thing about being a journalist is that someone pays you to go to strange places and meet weirdos and then tell other people about them. Like, at its best, it's not even a job. It's just like, the greatest way to live your life. And so I've always thought about my own career in journalism as, I mean, you know, I'm sitting. This is a long time ago already, but I'm at a dolphin show at the Havana Aquarium with Fidel Castro, who's giving me a lecture about why Cuban dolphins are superior to American dolphins. Dolphins. It's a Tuesday afternoon And I literally thought to myself, how is this a job?
- [40:18]
Max Tawney
How are they better? What was his argument?
- [40:21]
Jeffrey Goldberg
Cause they're socialists. I mean, you know. No, and I said. He said, you know, the Cuban dolphins are healthier and smarter than American dolphins. And I said, they're the same dolphins. It's the same exact dolphins. What are you talking about? They're from the same. Jesus Christ.
- [40:37]
Ben Smith
Wow. That's individualism versus socialism in a nutshell.
- [40:40]
Jeffrey Goldberg
Yeah. No, no, because these dolphins. Well, the Cuban dolphins probably eat better than many Cubans at this point, Alas.
- [40:47]
Max Tawney
Jeffrey, last question we want to ask you is, in the 10 years that you've been doing this job, what's a big lesson that you've learned? You had a long journalism career before this, but I imagine this has taught you a few things that you didn't know.
- [41:00]
Jeffrey Goldberg
Is this going to be compiled in the book that you're going to sell in airports one day? Keys to Effective Journalism Management.
- [41:06]
Max Tawney
Absolutely. That's a bestseller.
- [41:07]
Jeffrey Goldberg
Something that I learned about. About myself. And this was a question that people had about me, my friends and enemies and bosses had about me when I became editor, which is like, okay, so you're doing magazine journals, which is a very solo kind of journalism, you know, for 25 years. And it's all about you, the writer. Like, this is my story, and this is my cover, and this is my media, whatever. And it's like. And people were like, how are you going to transition to, like, making other people have success? And I said, I. I don't know. Like, maybe I'll be frustrated and want to just write my own stories now. I still, as I mentioned, I want to do my own journalism because I like finding out for myself things that I'm interested in. But what I found out is that. And I'm. I feel sort of silly saying this because it sounds a little bit like, gee, golly gee, but, like, I get such joy and happiness when someone nails a great story, especially when they're younger. And these days, most of the people around me are younger than I am. I'm there to hold them up and to try to protect them and to say to them, what do you most want to achieve in life? And let me help you achieve it. And it might take a while, and we're in this for the long run. And if you give people that security in their life, they will achieve great things. Well, you really could use this in your forthcoming management guide.
- [42:36]
Max Tawney
I can see it flying off the shelves already. Well, Jeffrey, thanks again. This was really interesting.
- [42:40]
Ben Smith
Thanks, Jeff.
- [42:41]
Jeffrey Goldberg
Good I'm glad we could do it. Thank you.
- [42:54]
Ben Smith
So, Max, at the end of the show there, Jeff was asking if he'd made any news. You're the fastest draw on the beat. Did he make any news? What did you think?
- [43:01]
Max Tawney
I mean, certainly whatever conversation he had with Jeff Bezos recently at whatever sort of gathering they were at, that, to me, felt like news. And particularly the fact that Jeffrey Goldberg was asking whether Bezos was still interested and invested in the post and getting an answer directly from him, that, to me, felt like news.
- [43:21]
Ben Smith
Jeff's comeback to Bezos there, which is to say we're all on the same Google, is, I think, a pretty good point.
- [43:26]
Max Tawney
That is a good point. I don't know if in that moment I would have it to go back to make a joke to Bezos like that, but who knows? Hopefully I'll get the opportunity at some point, but. But I also thought that he had really interesting things to say about media ownership and Lorene Powell jobs stewardship of the Atlantic. I feel like he revealed a lot more about media ownership than I was really expecting. A lot of times, people in Jeff's job are a little scared, frankly, to talk about the owner. It suggests to me that they have a very good and close working relationship. Ben, what did you think? Were you struck by anything specific that Jeff had to say about Laureen Powell jobs ownership? I mean, he also talked at length, obviously, about. About his thoughts on Barry Weiss. He talked, he shared a little bit of Trump's office interior decorating, details that I had not heard before. And I don't think that that was in the transcript that he shared of their interview. But, Ben, were you struck by anything that Jeff had to say about the powerful individuals who are shaping media today?
- [44:23]
Ben Smith
I mean, there's a lot that, like, I think exactly the same way he does on certain things, like the, you know, I think, like, my favorite line is that it beats working for a living. And I think that's how he feels about journalism, too. That's how I feel about it. And I do think, you know, at the heart of the. These, you know, news companies, media companies, publishers, whatever you want to call them, like, it is the journalism, and you do have to really love it and be excited about it. And then the fact that the really, like, most core function of an editor is having your reporters back. Like, I just totally believe that, too. As people who have called to complain about Max's work may have occasionally found. Nobody's ever done that, which no one has ever done. But, I mean, I do Think that like, and a big part of a successful newsroom is that swagger and that confidence and that sense of just like, we love the stories, we want more stories. Like, like that's just so important. And you can see how that gets managed out of these big institutions that are nervous about their finances and are in decline. In some sense that kind of confidence can be replaced by a sort of neurosis that. And I think if you want to look at sort of the gap between where the Wall Street Journal went and where the Washington Post went, like journalistic confidence is sort of underestimated as an ingredient in essentially commercial success.
- [45:31]
Max Tawney
I think that's true across media. It's not just news. Pretty much everyone wants to, it's the same thing in politics as well. Everybody wants to be on the side of a winner and they're interested in that. And you can see that even Trump was kind of drawn to that. Talking a little bit about the Atlantic's success and how they basically, they got one right.
- [45:50]
Ben Smith
And it's really true in all the creative businesses like you need, if you're in film, if you're in tv, you gotta be able to take risks and feel like somebody has your back. And then, I don't know. I mean, I found it very interesting to hear Jeffrey Thicke talk about kind of his, his like where he sits in the Israel story and the kind of broader foreign policy story he's been covering forever. I didn't know he'd had this falling out with Netanyahu who I guess saw him as kind of like a Obama stooge. And now Jeffrey, who is in American terms often criticized from the left, I mean, sort of sees himself as aligned with the Israeli left. I mean, I would love to read that. I mean the story about this arc is a story I care about a lot and I'm interested in of these fringe right wings figures in Israel who are now in the government. I mean, I'm very interested in reading his story of this kind of violent march 30 years ago that now represents the mainstream politics in that country. Is obviously a very interesting story and I want to read it.
- [46:46]
Max Tawney
Ben, I thought it was a really, really interesting conversation. Was so glad that we were able to get Jeff, particularly at the one year anniversary of Signalgate, which probably still is the single defining story of Trump 2.0. Well, that is it for us this week. Thank you so much for listening to another episode of Mixed Signals from us here at Semaphore Media. Our show is produced by Manny Fadal with special thanks to Josh Billinson, Rachel Oppenheim, Anna Pizzino, Daniel Haft, Garrett Wiley, Jules Zern, and Tori Kaur. Our engineer is Rick Kwan and our theme music is by Steve Bone. Our public editor is Laureen Powell Jobs, owner of the Atlantic. Loreen, we would love to have you on the show. We've tried before. Thought this went super well with Jeff. You know, he had a lot to say. You could come on here and respond.
- [47:32]
Ben Smith
If you like the show, please subscribe on YouTube and please follow us wherever you get your podcasts.
- [47:37]
Max Tawney
And please leave us a review, preferably five stars. But if you want more, you can always sign up for Semaphore's Media newsletter, which is out every Sunday night.