Mixed Signals from Semafor Media

Episode: Ken Burns on the Future of PBS, the New Age of Media, and Why Documentaries Will Outlast TikTok

Date: October 31, 2025
Host(s): Max Tani & Ben Smith
Guest: Ken Burns

Overview

This episode features legendary documentarian Ken Burns. With PBS facing defunding in the current political climate, Burns discusses his new American Revolution series, the parallels between history and the present, the enduring value of long-form documentaries, and why he’s skeptical of narratives about declining attention spans. The conversation spans the craft and philosophy of documentary filmmaking, the challenges posed by contemporary media trends, and Burns' pointed thoughts on the future of public broadcasting and American society.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ken Burns’ Process & Choosing Subjects

Timestamps: [04:45]-[07:17], [21:00]-[24:02]

• Burns details the “felt” nature of choosing his topics, often driven by personal passion rather than public demand:
  • “I don’t choose the subjects with any kind of, you know, focus group attention. ... It was not thought out in that sense. It was felt, and I just had to do it.” — Ken Burns [05:05]
• He tends to work on three or four films at once, over multi-year periods, which informs his response when people suggest new films:
  • “People tell me they know what my next film should be—I go, yeah, I know what my next film is going to be. And we’re halfway through it or 3/4 of the way through it.” — Ken Burns [21:00]
• PBS’s support provides unique creative freedom that commercial streaming platforms cannot:
  • “I could go to any streaming service or premium cable and get everything I need for a film except the time to do it.” — Ken Burns [23:15]

2. Innovation and Style in Documentary Filmmaking

Timestamps: [06:52]-[09:58]

• Burns discusses his signature style—animating stills, blending reenactments with art, and focusing on the details to “wake that moment up.”
  • “We still treat the drawings and the paintings as if they’re live and the live as if they’re paintings, which we’ve always done.” — Ken Burns [07:38]
• Creating the American Revolution series required new levels of creativity due to the lack of historical photographs. He collaborated deeply with reenactors, aiming to avoid cliches and evoke emotional response rather than simple recreation.

3. Parallels Between Revolutionary-Era Media and Today

Timestamps: [09:58]-[13:54]

• Burns eloquently compares media dynamics from the Revolutionary War period to the present, noting perennial misinformation and escalating rhetoric:
  • “History doesn’t repeat itself. ... but it rhymes. So I’ve never worked on a film where it hasn’t been rhyming spectacularly in the present, because human nature doesn’t change.” — Ken Burns [10:29]
  • “Lies are passed around ... There’s a pandemic and huge arguments over inoculation and their efficacy. ... There’s a total eclipse. Do I need to go on?” — Ken Burns [13:39]

4. The Politics of History: Objectivity, Revisionism, and “Balls and Strikes”

Timestamps: [13:54]-[17:49]

• Burns addresses the controversy over how to tell American history amid ongoing culture wars (e.g., 1619 Project vs. Trump’s 1776 Commission).
  • “We don’t care about it. ... Theories of history ... don’t mean anything. ... If you call balls and strikes, this is already an amazing story.” — Ken Burns [14:40]
  • On debates between viewing history solely as achievement or sin:
    • “It’s a complicated story that’s both inspiring and at times disappointing and exalting and real and sad ... because you lose people ... and happy because some of the best ideas in the history of humankind came out of this.” — Ken Burns [16:10]
  • The American Revolution as a civil war was highlighted as a “global war” and one that was deeply complex, including American-on-American violence and competing loyalties.

5. Defunding PBS: Impact, Disappointment, and Public Value

Timestamps: [24:02]-[25:32]

• Burns responds emotionally and analytically to the Trump administration’s and Congressional Republicans' push to defund PBS.
  • “Just incredible disappointment and sadness and the sense of short sightedness too. ... This will hurt mostly the small rural stations that will go out of business.” — Ken Burns [24:14]
  • He emphasizes the nonpartisan, community-oriented mission of PBS and the devastating effects that funding cuts will have, especially on underserved communities.

6. Media Tours and Messaging in the New Media Landscape

Timestamps: [25:32]-[27:51], [31:19]-[32:20]

• Burns reflects on his omnipresence in media, from The Atlantic to Joe Rogan, and his intent:

  • “I don’t vary the message. We have a story. We share this story. It’s a bottom up as well as top down story.” — Ken Burns [25:32]
  • “Expert’s not the word. Just a prisoner. My every day is like 18 and a half hours a day of doing this.” — Ken Burns [26:25]

• He retains a deliberately apolitical stance to reach broader audiences, focusing on shared history as a means to foster unity:

  • “I don’t have an agenda other than to get as many eyeballs watching this as possible. ... The whole idea of union … if you’re going to borrow our system, ... never fall out one with the other.” — Ken Burns [27:51]

7. The Supposed Decline of Attention Spans and the Endurance of Long-form Content

Timestamps: [32:20]-[35:37]

• Despite narratives about “shorter attention spans,” Burns insists that audiences still crave depth in storytelling:
  • “What do people do in the midst of tsunami of choices that they have? They self curate. ... People are willing to focus their attention ... All meaning accrues in duration. Period.” — Ken Burns [33:13]
  • He points to recurring generational anxieties about new media, dating back to the telegraph.
  • “They said it about you, probably Ben and Max. You know, this is the history of the world.” — Ken Burns [35:25]

8. The Documentary Field: Its Resilience and Golden Age

Timestamps: [35:37]-[37:56]

• Burns praises the diversity and vitality of contemporary documentaries:
  • “The word documentary is such a tiny narrow word. ... To make a film and get it done ... is an extraordinary accomplishment.” — Ken Burns [35:42]
  • He credits both his peers and PBS’s system for enabling the sustained quality and impact of documentary work, compared to fleeting trends in commercial media.

9. The Enduring Relevance of History and Civic Engagement

Timestamps: [37:56]-[40:22]

• Asked if history predicts the future, Burns demurs but stresses its importance for democratic resilience:
  • “I don’t know where we’re going. I know that if we know where we’ve been, we have a better chance of going to a better place.” — Ken Burns [38:09]
  • “We are citizens, and that means we have the highest office in the land. ... Pursuit of happiness did not mean lifelong accumulation of wealth ... but lifelong learning in a marketplace of ideas.” — Ken Burns [38:50]
  • He emphasizes complexity, virtue, truth, and honesty as fundamental to the enduring American experiment.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On documentary style and discovery:
  “I didn’t go in to tell you what I knew about the American Revolution. I went in to discover it, and every day was like, whoa, I had no idea.” — Ken Burns [08:38]

• On the “panic” over changing media:
  “Every generation is convinced the sky is falling because of the new thing. But meaning accrues in duration.” — [33:13-35:37]

• On defunding PBS:
  “It will only hurt people who don’t deserve to be hurt, who need to not live in a news desert. That’s a sad thing.” — Ken Burns [24:14]

• On being a podcast guest:
  “Expert’s not the word. Just a prisoner. My every day is like 18 and a half hours a day of doing this.” — Ken Burns [26:25]

• On the promise and limitations of objectivity:
  “If you call balls and strikes, then it isn’t a highlight game, nor is it this involvement of just sins. It’s a complicated story that’s both inspiring and at times disappointing...” — Ken Burns [16:10]

• On history as civic engagement:
  “We are citizens, and that means we have the highest office in the land. But it has to be active.” — Ken Burns [38:50]

Important Segments & Timestamps

• [04:45] Ken Burns discusses how he chooses and approaches his subjects
• [07:17] The challenge and process of visually recreating the American Revolution
• [10:29] Parallels between revolutionary and modern media landscapes
• [14:40] The politics of history education and “calling balls and strikes”
• [24:14] Burns’ reaction to PBS defunding and the implications for rural and underserved Americans
• [33:13] On attention spans, long-form content, and binging culture
• [35:42] The diversity and endurance of documentary filmmaking
• [38:09] The role of history in helping us navigate the present and future

Tone & Style

Burns speaks with warmth, conviction, and erudition. He avoids overt politicking while being pointed about the consequences of PBS defunding. The overall tone of the episode is thoughtful, reflective, sometimes humorous, and deeply invested in the value of historical understanding and quality storytelling. The hosts provide a conversational, slightly irreverent counterpoint, helping to keep the conversation accessible and lively.

For Listeners Who Haven’t Heard the Episode

This conversation is essential listening for anyone interested in history, public media, documentary storytelling, or the intersection of politics and culture. Ken Burns provides both a masterclass in historical storytelling and a powerful defense of the enduring importance of nuanced, long-form content—even in a rapidly changing media landscape. The episode delivers a nuanced, richly detailed exploration of how America tells its own story—and why it matters now more than ever.