← Mixed Signals from Semafor Media
Mixed Signals from Semafor Media
Rolling Stone scion on investing in ‘Track Star’ and the anti-algorithmic future of music media
01:00:19
Loading summary
Transcript146 lines
- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Hello, and welcome to another episode of Mixed Signals from us here at Semaphore Media, where we are talking to all of the most interesting and important people shaping our new media age. I'm Max Tawny. I'm the media editor here at Semaphore, and with me, as always, is Semaphore's Editor in chief, Ben Smith. Ben, did you ever. Before you became editor in chief of Semaphore, did you ever dream of being a different type of journalist? Other than politics and business and media, which you've mostly covered, do you ever want to write about art or music or movies or sports, anything like that?
- [00:46]
B
I wish I could say I had broader interests, but I've always run pretty. Pretty straight up the middle.
- [00:51]
A
You've been locked in before.
- [00:53]
B
That was something people said.
- [00:55]
A
Yeah, exactly. So one person who has also been pretty locked into one particular media path pretty much his whole life is our guest this week on the show, and that's Gus Wenner. Gus is the chairman of Rolling Stone and the son of the magazine's founder, Jan Wenner. Gus has been involved through a pretty notable time in the magazine's transformation. He was there and kind of led the charge for it to be sold to Penske Media in 2018, but has kind of stuck around in a leadership capacity, trying to make sure that it's still retains its kind of heart and soul while also pivoting the magazine to a time when most people are consuming music and music media digitally. And now Gus is striking out on his own. He's got his own new media project called Wenner Media Ventures, whose first investment was in the popular music trivia show Track Star. Ben, have you seen these videos on your feed, Track Star?
- [01:55]
B
Yeah, I don't think I've ever, like, sought to watch it on YouTube, but it's pretty ubiquitous on TikTok. And it is like part of this new, you know, pretty professional Internet show genre world that say it's obviously ascendant.
- [02:09]
A
You did see Vice President Kamala Harris during her run for the presidency, make some time to do track star, though. Of course. Right?
- [02:16]
B
Yeah. And it was actually like one of her least awkward new media appearances.
- [02:20]
A
I think that is true. There were some hits and there were some misses, for sure. But Ben, you also know Gus a little bit socially or professionally. You guys are both part of this elite media cabal, and you know him a little bit. You guys have had lunch. What do you think about Gus?
- [02:38]
B
I don't think I know Gus socially. I sort of fly at a somewhat lower Altitude. But professionally and, you know, I think he was the reinvention of Rolling Stone from essentially a magazine that was going to age out with Bob Dylan fans into, you know, something that put Bad Bunny on the COVID was pretty complicated. Controversial music journalism in general in a very complicated place. I mean, I think he's. And he's been navigating all that inside a. So deeply associated with him, but a company he doesn't run. But you're the actual consumer here. Max, what do you. How are they doing over there?
- [03:13]
A
Yeah, it's a really interesting question, because music media has changed so much over the last several decades, and I think it faces some real challenges, some existential challenges that we've seen play out across a lot of different parts of music media. Pitchfork, the iconic millennial media brand, the kind of Rolling Stone of my generation, I guess, recently went behind a paywall, which is a really big deal for a publication that's more than two decades old. And it kind of resisted that, but it was an acknowledgement, I think, of a lot of changes that have been going on in music media, which used to serve really two types of functions. Right. One function was just pure discovery. I remember going to the Barnes and Noble in Santa Ana. I've talked about this a little bit with Will Welch.
- [03:59]
B
We gotta do a field trip to that place. This is like, Max Tinny lore. It's still open.
- [04:04]
A
It's still open. That's how influential it is and how successful of a branch. But I remember going there reading Rolling Stone and reading Spin to try to figure out what the cool new bands were. I would jot the names down, and then I would go home and look them up. Or I'd go to the CD section and buy a copy and then subscribe.
- [04:23]
B
Wait, wait, you're saying you didn't buy the magazines or subscribe?
- [04:26]
A
Of course not. No way. Actually, I did have a Rolling Stone subscription, though, that my mom got for me. I remember that. So we did get those delivered to the house. So one function was discovery, which the Internet and algorithms have really strongly disrupted. Spotify does most of the world's music discovery at this point for them. And the other function of music media is kind of like learning more, getting deeper into kind of fandom, learning more about the lives of a lot of musicians, many of whom don't necessarily need a magazine or music media to kind of put their image out there for them. They can do that themselves creatively on social media through other channels. So it'll be really interesting, I think, to talk to Gus a little bit about how he's tried to position Rolling Stone in an era where he's facing these two twin challenges fundamentally to its kind of existence.
- [05:12]
B
And is there still such a thing as music criticism?
- [05:15]
A
It's a great question. We should ask that to him. And of course, we'll also ask him too, about why he is striking out on his own and what it says that his first investment is in a short form. TikTok music quiz show. But Gus is actually waiting for us, so why don't we bring him in Right after this quick break.
- [05:39]
B
Our friend Josh Spanier, Google's VP of marketing, has a new podcast out called Frontier cmo. It's from Think with Google, and it gets into all the ways marketing is shifting, especially in the AI era, where the old marketing playbooks have become obsolete and the whole role of the CMO is being redefined in real time. Josh talks to the people who are actually figuring it out, top CMOs, industry leaders and creators, and gets into the real world challenges and specific strategies they're using to navigate this new era. These are notes from the marketing Frontier. You can find Frontier CMO on any podcast platform or watch it on YouTube.
- [06:18]
A
Gus, thank you so much for joining us. We're really excited and interested to talk to you about this because you have done what we love to see from guests, which is you've made some news very recently and you've decided as one of your first moves to come on and talk with us, which that's getting started on the right foot, in my view. So we appreciate that. So you just launched a new fund to invest in media, which I think is great, not necessarily a thing that everybody else is doing. Many people are running away from media. Why is now the time to invest, in your view?
- [06:50]
C
Well, I wouldn't necessarily classify it as a fund, more of like a. A holding company or an operating company. I think for starters, it's what I know how to do. So I don't know really what else I would do. And it's what I love. You know, I think media is, as you guys know, the most powerful media. I mean, maybe music and which could be classified as media, but this idea of telling a story, it's a very powerful tool and the world needs it. And I think media is at a inflection point. Not to sound cliche, but it. It really is. And both just personally, in my own arc and journey, it was great timing to do it, but also I think in the kind of moment we're in, it is perfect timing. To try to build something new that I don't think too many media companies are really doing at the moment.
- [07:45]
A
Why was it a good time in your personal journey?
- [07:49]
C
Well, my journey has been an interesting one and a long one and I'm happy to talk about it. But obviously I graduated school, graduated from Brown and started working the family business right away. And at that moment it was 2012 and I knew very little, but I stepped into a situation where the media industry was turning on its head. And Wenner Media as it was, was a company that had three magazines, Rolling Stone, Men's Journal and Us weekly. And probably 80% of the revenues of company were coming from print. And the mindset of the company was very magazine oriented. And my kind of initial job and focus was working for the chief digital officer at the time who was a really smart guy. He had been a professor at Harvard Business School and was really, really talented. I learned a ton from him. But I was able to work with him to accomplish a lot in a little amount of time because I had a direct line to my dad who had founded the. You know, he had a lot of smart ideas that weren't necessarily being listened to because it wasn't the instincts of the business at the time. And that was great. And there's a long version of the story and a shorter version of the story. But eventually he left to go work at Apple and I sort of took over his role a couple years later running digital across the company. And we accomplished a ton of growth. And soon enough we had to sell the businesses, sell the different magazines. There was a debt on the company from a deal with Disney around Us Weekly and print revenues were kind of disintegrating. And my dad also had a heart attack. So he was kind of in the hospital, out of the mix. And it was really on my shoulders at a young age to sell these things and run this process. And I had super smart people around me while also managing the company itself.
- [09:48]
B
That sounds incredibly stressful. Honestly, I've never heard you tell it that way.
- [09:52]
C
It was, it was unbelievably stressful and I learned a tremendous amount. And the stakes were extremely high. You know, it was 100% family owned business. So if things went wrong or we didn't meet certain hurdles, it was going to be, you know, big bill for my family. It wasn't, you know, like a bankruptcy situation. There were liabilities and tax bills and all this stuff and.
- [10:15]
B
And you were what, like 28?
- [10:17]
C
I was like 26 when this all started properly. And then on the flip side of the coin, there was a lot going on. I mean, we were, you know, story. We had El Chapo coming out. We had more controversial things like UVA and the Boston bomber. We had General McChrystal. I mean, stories that were shaking the world. And the staff that was so unbelievably dedicated to the mission of Rolling Stone, and, you know, that was at times stressful, at times super exciting. But then over here, you know, rumblings about the future of the company and people worrying, you know, what does this mean? Not only for. For themselves, but for the prospects of Rolling Stone, which is a life mantra and mission that people came from all over the world to be a part of. So it was a very, very intense time, which I loved, and I thrived in that environment, but it was super high pressure, and I was learning a lot, balancing a lot, but also figuring out what I was up for and instinctively could do and capable of. And that was an amazing period. And we, you know, I did three deals to sell those things, and they all went really well. They weren't without their ups and downs and at the 11th hour, you know, falling apart and then resuscitating it over here with someone else, all sorts of kind of twists and turns, but they all ended up as well as we could have hoped for and could have asked for. And I think kind of set a little bit of a mold and template for a lot of the transactions that happened around that time afterwards, like New York Magazine being sold other kind of similar kinds of properties. I think we were the first to really move and do deals that kind of set. Set the tone and I think valuations to a certain degree, and. And we did really well. So that was kind of like, again, I could talk a lot more about that period, but that was chapter one, I would say, and there's a lot to say there, and I would just underscore there, like. Like there were so many smart people around and being so young, you know, taking on that role and responsibility, I learned quickly what I knew, but also what I didn't know. And the value of finding good people and figuring out who to listen to and how to put them in a position to really be empowered was, I would say, sort of like extra important for me at that age and is something I've kind of carried through and still feeling. And then, you know, the final piece of the puzzle was selling Rolling Stone. Right. Like, in terms of the financial picture, selling Us Weekly was the most, from a numbers perspective, kind of valuable asset that we really had to get rid of. To satisfy a lot of these liabilities. And that went really well. And then Men's Journal and then with Rolling Stone, you know, I was prepared in that moment that we would potentially sell it to someone that wanted to do what they wanted to do with it and wouldn't want, you know, me or anyone involved that had been involved. But it was the thing that I just believed in tremendously and had a deep passion and love for. So regardless of what was going to happen with me, I wanted it to be in good hands. I wanted to know beyond just like meeting some kind of financial hurdle in the sale. I wanted to know it was going to be in someone's hands that understood that and that was able to keep it going and funded and felt like kind of like a smart home, strategically. I sold it to Penske Media and that was a, you know, pretty wide ranging process with a ton of interested parties. Jay Penske, who founded and runs Penske Media, we got along really well and had a very similar vision for what this could be. And he wanted me to. To stay on running it, so I did. So that was kind of the start of Chapter two. You know, at that time, I think I was president of Rolling Stone, and we really worked together to transform the business I had already started to kind of put the pieces in place to evolve it from a magazine into something much more and something built for the digital age. But he gave the infrastructure and firepower for me to really run with that. And we worked very closely to really diversify the business, build up a big digital presence, built a films business with Rolling Stone Films, where we were producing documentaries and podcasts and television. We expanded our global presence to over 20 global licensees around the world. We built an E commerce business. I think we did a really good job of making it, you know, a multimedia property and leveraging the power of the brand. And we were really successful. The business grew a lot. And I became CEO under Jay, actually, and we acquired a music festival. So we folded that into Rolling Stones operations and it was a great run. And I did it for seven years. And this kind of feeling that I had had from honestly, day one, before we ever sold anything of this is amazing and this kind of family legacy and, you know, you could spend billions of dollars and countless hours trying to recreate a brand like Rolling Stone and you might not succeed, you know, is really like lightning in a bottle in a lot of ways. And obviously a testament to my dad. So that felt like this unbelievable opportunity. But I always had this inkling of wanting to build something myself and outside of it. And this ride was so exciting and important to me that it just kind of went where it went, but there just reached a point where I was, like, looking around, like, all right, well, now's probably a pretty good moment to do that, and I think I've learned enough to do it the right way. So, you know, now starts chapter three.
- [16:17]
A
Yeah. So you recently invested in the company that makes Track Star, which Ben and I are both familiar with. It's, you know, one of them. It's part of even.
- [16:27]
B
I'm familiar with it even. Yeah.
- [16:29]
A
I didn't want to say that even Ben is familiar with it, but, you know, he's. They've gotten enough notable guests of all varieties that we're pretty familiar with it. Actually. David Remnick said of, you know, in promoting the New Yorker documentary that he was only doing our show and Track Star and the Criterion Closet, which it was nice to be in that. In that category, but you've invested in this show, which is already pretty popular. What do you want to do with it? What is that investment going to go towards?
- [16:54]
C
Yeah. No. So you said it. Well, first of all, Jack Coyne, who started the company with his brother Kieran and their friend Henry. He and I went to high school together in New York, so I knew Jack then, and I had kind of been aware that he was doing interesting stuff. I knew he was working for Casey Neistat, who's really talented, and I knew they had solo coming to cnn. So I kind of, like, been keeping a loose tab on him. And then when he started making the show Track Star, it just. As soon as I saw it, like, a couple years ago, I was like, that's really interesting. And it obviously, you know, coincided with a moment where at Rolling Stone, we had a video team, and we were trying to figure out how to be successful in that space, not only in terms of video production, but in terms of creating shows and content that would work online and in social media. So I called him and, you know, he came in and we met, and I was just kind of struck with, like, his energy and his thoughts about it, and. And I started to think about, well, maybe maybe I should bring Jack on to, like, run our video team and think about kind of like a Aqua Hire type situation. And then the show started to really explode. And as you pointed out, I mean, the level of guests that they were booking became super high. But also I was hearing from friends of mine who were going on the show, musicians and whatnot. Who were like, like, doing that show moved the needle more for me than anything else I did in this promotional cycle. And I was like, that's wild. Like, I was like, there even came a point where we were, you know, pitching for some big brand campaign and they won it. And I was like, what the.
- [18:39]
A
Wow.
- [18:40]
C
So I, you know, met with Jack again and it again coincided with the sort of timing of me thinking about what, what I wanted to do and this, this sort of next chapter for myself. And, you know, I was playing around with this idea of kind of restarting Wenner Media. And it was clear to me how valuable the show was. And not just as an individual creator, which he has an incredible talent, and that's true, and that's really appealing to me. And there's a lot to do with that, not just with Jack, but with putting other people like that under this umbrella. But it was clear he was building a brand with Track Star that I thought was. Could come kind of like a new, you know, a new MTV of sorts.
- [19:25]
B
Can I ask you a little about just sort of the economics of that kind of investment? Because I think so many people are. Investors are sort of circling this creator economy. And then there's this challenge of, you know, are you investing in a company or is this just a guy? And how do you. And if it's just this talented guy with this show, what do you really own if you're an investor? And I think there's a lot of nervousness about that. You know, if, if he resigns, you're really in trouble, right?
- [19:52]
C
Well, I mean, it's not even necessarily resigns. I mean, yeah, Key man in any deal to that degree is scary.
- [19:57]
B
And yeah, I didn't want to float the possibility of him getting hit by a bus, but that kind of thing, like, how do you invest in something that's sort of one guy's show?
- [20:05]
C
So. Okay, let me answer that question in two parts. Number one, I think there's an insight here which is just true. And, and in order to, in my opinion, in order to exceed in this space in this era, you have to have strong personalities that work on camera. And to me, it is not dissimilar from how my dad thought about Rolling Stone when it started. I mean, when you. When people think about Rolling Stone, they think about Hunter Thompson, they think about Annie Leibowitz, they think about Cameron Crowe and Tom Wolf and Ben Fong to us. So it was always about talent. And I think a lot of people would be hard pressed to name, like, star writers today. And those days are kind of over. And it. I think, though, thematically, it's still the same. I mean, the way Lorne Michaels cast SNL like that is the approach.
- [20:58]
B
You're saying Hunter S. Thompson should ask for equity when he had the chance?
- [21:03]
C
Well, equity, I think, was the last thing on Hunter's. But I think that talent is the key, and I think that's always been true in media businesses. And a lot of traditional media publishing companies, I think, have kind of lost sight of that. So in Track Star, I saw something that was bigger than just Jack. I saw something that could be an umbrella brand to put together a stable of 10 more people like Jack. And Jack is brilliant and sets a really high.
- [21:35]
B
And. And did you buy the whole company or no? Majority. Majority of the company. Like, what kind of an investment is it?
- [21:41]
C
A significant investment. And we're partners for the long haul. But I'll stop short of.
- [21:47]
B
You don't want to tell us the valuation?
- [21:49]
C
No, we're going to keep that close for now.
- [21:52]
B
Yeah. All right.
- [21:53]
C
But it was meaningful. You know, it was a meaningful dollar amount. And it was.
- [21:58]
B
Somebody once told me what the difference was between meaningful, significant, and major. Like, there's each. Each is 1 0. But I can't remember the. The dichotomy. I'll go ask Liz after this.
- [22:07]
C
I don't know that rubric. But if you did them, I mean, it was. It was. Now you've lost me. But it was significant.
- [22:16]
A
I think one out of every 10 guests takes Ben's bait and gives us a number, but we'll leave it at that today.
- [22:23]
C
That sounds like a meaningful number of guests.
- [22:26]
A
Yeah. Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway are the only ones who enthusiastically took Ben's bait to tell everybody how much money they make and spend. But. But to go back to the original question, though, you made a big investment here. What's the plan? What do you want to do? How do you see it growing beyond what it's doing right now? Right now. Awesome. Cool. Interesting show. You got major figures going on there. It's a key part of the promotional cycle. How do you see it growing?
- [22:51]
C
I think there's three phases, and it's something we'll talk more about in a couple months, but we've spent a ton of time and it's been super exciting. In the. The peak of the snowstorm that weekend, we were, like, meeting all day, whiteboarding and strategies, and we'd been talking about a lot of these ideas for months, but really putting pen to paper and getting into it. I think the first thing is just establishing the foundation, right? And the business has been super successful. It's exploded in its popularity and revenue has been doubling every year. But they have no, there's no business infrastructure. So. So first thing is kind of like building out a bit of an infrastructure. And that's part of the opportunity here is I think you have creator businesses that have a real audience and as I said, are like moving the needle in this big way, but don't have the tools and resources to actually build a real media company around it. And I think kind of the flip could be said in a way for a lot of traditional media companies that have all these people and infrastructure and resources, but kind of don't. They've kind of lost the audience and lost this sort of core skill of making shows or franchises that resonate. So step one is really solidifying that element. Step two is going to be, you know, expanding the content like you said, Ben. Like right now it's. There's four shows. Jack hosts pretty much all of them. And we want to put together a stable of the best, most compelling on screen talent like Jack, but you know, in different areas that exist. So that's like going to be a huge focus for us. And then just to finish the question, step three is then to expand and really build out the brand from there and build other kinds of businesses around it, like events businesses and so on.
- [24:41]
B
And do you think, is it, I mean, is it basically a music sort of business and the parallel verticals or other genres or something, or does it have permission to go elsewhere? Like how do you think about that?
- [24:52]
C
I think music is at its core, but it's got permission to go elsewhere. The company is called Public Opinion and there's a sort of longer form news program called Public Opinion which does really well and they're, they're really well done and they're kind of these human stories. And even the show, even Track Star, is about sort of human connection and curiosity, which is very much what I think music is like its place in the world. It's this sort of last common ground and it's so disarming. So I think we want to keep that thread as we launch new shows. I think a lot of them might be music forward, but there's going to be a much broader scope in terms of different subject matters and beats for sure, outside of music.
- [25:38]
A
Gus, I'm really curious. As you know, I'm a long time consumer of music media. It's probably some of the first media that I consumed, but it strikes me that you're right. You're right.
- [25:48]
B
A child Rolling Stone subscriber.
- [25:50]
A
Yeah, I had my. My mom bought me the Rolling Stone subscription that used to be able to.
- [25:53]
B
Get like the last millennial.
- [25:56]
A
Yeah, no, that is true. But I have a question. So music media has changed really pretty significantly throughout the course of my lifetime. I feel like I was a music media consumer primarily for two reasons, which is I used it to discover new music CDs, to buy artists to. To know about that people were talking about. And so there was this discoverability piece that was kind of a utility. And then on the other side, there was this kind of fandom piece, like, you know, reading more about these artists that I was interested in. And it strikes me that the Internet has really disrupted both of those functions. Right. Discoverability. Most people just use algorithms to find music nowadays. And, you know, on the other side, artists can really control what the narratives are about them. And if someone likes an artist, they can just follow them on social media and get most of what they need. What do you think is the future of music media and the value that it serves when technology platforms have basically taken those two key pillars of what music media used to do?
- [26:57]
C
Look, as I said before, I think there is a big opening to centralize some of that for a new kind of voice to both like storytelling, but also curation performances. I mean, something that. That feels really important. Again, like, for me, my big reference point is Rolling Stone. And I think one of the most powerful things about Rolling Stone was the idea that if an artist was there, they kind of. They made it. There was this sort of stamp of approval, and I don't really know where. I mean, it exists. And I think Rolling Stone still has some of that, but I do think it is kind of wide open, like within your question is almost the answer in terms of how I'm seeing it, to build something new that fills that void. And I think it can't be done the same way. I think that, like, this sort of openness and curiosity and real human experience is a really core piece of what is going to continue to resonate as we build this thing. As that has bet space has been fragmented and kind of broken down. I don't think anyone's kind of stepped in and built something new in its place with a different kind of thinking. And that's what we're going to. To try to do. That's what we're trying to do.
- [28:08]
B
Do you think people are unsatisfied with algorithmic recommendations?
- [28:14]
C
A hundred percent yeah. Are you? I am.
- [28:18]
B
Why? I mean, it seems like they're perfect. I'm satisfied.
- [28:22]
C
Yeah, the algorithm is smart, but I think it just kind of like draws you down this path that often can kind of get to the lowest common denominator and create this kind of like group think mentality based on like, what your feed or bubble kind of is bent towards, you know, And I do think people are frustrated with that. And another reason I think Track Star is really interesting. Like it started as just asking people questions on the street and just like having a really high bar of respect for, for the audience. And that resonated. And I think algorithms just inherently kind of, of don't respect you. They're just kind of telling you like what you might like because they're smarter than you. So I just, to me it's, it's, it's wonky. And especially with AI, I think the value of like really high level, well done storytelling is going to become greater. Ben, are you agreeing with me or disagreeing? I cannot tell.
- [29:25]
B
You know, I don't know.
- [29:25]
A
I. Both at the same time.
- [29:27]
B
I'm a pretty pure algorithmic, you know, consumer at this point in my life.
- [29:31]
A
Don't worry, you didn't. The person who's been. Who Ben has offended the most on this show with the pro algorithmic messaging is Allison Roman, who Ben said that he's using ChatGPT to figure out some recipes, which I think slightly horrified her when he said that, somewhat jokingly.
- [29:46]
C
But Ben, you're basically saying you think the algorithm's super effective. It's.
- [29:49]
B
No, I mean, I actually think. I agree with you that people are desperate for kind of human. I mean, it's certainly kind of our bet at Semaphore that at the top level, people actually want human intelligence and tastemaking in some sense, that there's like a human with ideas and intentions behind the thing. But it just strikes me that like, obviously most people in fact in reality seem satisfied with algorithms and are leaning on for most of their music.
- [30:13]
C
Yeah. And look what else is there at the moment? To, to a certain extent, I don't think the idea is to be naive. Like, the algorithms are very powerful tool and that's got to be kind of part of the recipe and leveraged. But I think there's a want and desire for something a little more human.
- [30:31]
A
Yeah, there is something to be proud of when you discover something outside of an algorithm. At this point, I, I do think I cherish the music that I. That's not just served to me in my Spotify release Radar or something like that.
- [30:44]
C
If you think of music more broadly and you look at what has resonated in a really deep way over the last even 20 years, you think about Amy Winehouse, you think about Adele this year, Olivia Dean. There is something very classic about these acts. I'm answering your question in a weird way, but I guess my point is I think there were great formats that, when brought back the right way, really resonate in a modern context.
- [31:19]
A
Well, we have to take a short break, but we'll be right back with more with Gus Wenner right after this.
- [31:30]
B
Foreign. This week on our branded segment from Think with Google, I spoke with Google's VP of marketing, Josh Spanier, about what CMOs can learn from the AI transformation at their companies. What are the most common questions you get from CMOs?
- [31:48]
C
Help.
- [31:48]
D
I'm actually hearing help a lot from CMOs right now, and it's sort of grouped around their AI transformation. I'm getting the question, how are you in Google marketing doing your AI transformation and what can you teach us? Or what can we learn from your progress? And really two deeper questions are who does the AI work? Where does it sit? Within my organization and within my agency. And even more critically, how do I get my teams to embrace AI solutions and technologies? How do I take the horse to water and actually make it drink the AI water, as it were, and what.
- [32:23]
B
Advice are you giving them?
- [32:25]
D
One of the most important is just finding your AI champions. Find those people in your organization who are passionate about technology, passionate about doing their job, and passionate about using AI to solve problems, and then give them more responsibility, more projects, and they can be little change agents within your organization, sparking change of behavior. That's one thing that's really helped us. A second thing, especially for CMOs, is you can't delegate. You have to own the conversation. Some of the tactical, practical things that have to be decided with an AI when you push it down and you're not involved, things aren't going to go as fast as you want as people will revert back to their sort of normal ways of working.
- [33:06]
B
And where can CMOs go? To find out more about this, one.
- [33:09]
D
Of our vice presidents, Torrence Boone, just published a really good guide, the the CMOS Playbook for AI Transformation. So head on over to thinkwithgoogle.com and search for CMO's playbook for AI transformation.
- [33:30]
A
What have you thought about the music media landscape in general and some of the struggles that it seems like the music media has been facing? You lived Some of it at the center of Rolling Stone. And you guys navigated some of those challenges and came out the other side okay. But, you know, you look at Pitchfork, which earlier this year announced that it was going behind a paywall after very proudly not putting its reviews behind a paywall and kind of acknowledging that music criticism now is something only that a few people are really interested in. What have you thought generally about some of those types of struggles?
- [34:03]
C
Well, I think a lot of it has to do with packaging and presentation and the business model. And I kind of go back to what I was saying before, which is I don't think traditional media companies have really figured out how to. To think like a creator. Right. Like, creators have been so successful in this environment. The company that I think actually has kind of gotten a totally different type of content, but like barstool, in a lot of ways, they've done a really successful job of, you know, putting the talent first and having that be the business model. I think in the audio space, the ringer has done a really good job of it in its own way. So Jack and I have talked about wanting to build a new kind of media company with this business on a couple levels, and that's definitely one of them is just. Just the model and what's at the tip of the spear. I think, in terms of the culture and environment that we want to build, we want it to be fun and nimble and energetic and very of the material that we're producing and creating. And I think that the broader media industry, whether it's Pitchfork or, you know, a lot of these brands that have also been subsumed by these bigger corporate media companies, it's. It's hard to be as nimble and creative as I think you kind of need to be to win in today's landscape.
- [35:17]
A
Track Star is obviously a big part of your focus, and public opinion is part of your focus. Are there any other media companies that you're looking at as well? And do you plan on making any more investments this year?
- [35:30]
C
Yes, the next thing, we'll announce it in April. A huge part of my focus, especially in this initial stretch, is going to be on Trackstar and Public Opinion, But I'm working on another company, and we'll announce that in April. And it's in a similar but different space, but I think it fits well with Track Star.
- [35:54]
B
You know, Gus took me out to a very nice lunch. As I recall, this would have been, gosh, 2021, was it, or would have been 2019, something like that. I can't actually remember if I was at buzzfeeder at the Times, but you're at the time. A very nice lunch. And this is actually really interesting because you were looking for. I mean, I'm a political journalist, and I think you were looking for a political journalist with strong cultural taste to really, like, bring back the spirit of the early Rolling Stone, where it cut across culture and it was, you know, the dominant music magazine, but then would also really punch really deeply into politics. And I just didn't. I mean, it's obviously incredibly interesting. And I remember I told my son that he was like, you're an idiot. Like, you need to go back and call that man right now.
- [36:38]
C
But I was going to say, you told your son, not that man, that kid.
- [36:42]
B
That's part of the problem. That wasn't the problem. I'm just not deep enough in music to feel like I could do it. But I. So I instead was like, oh, I know another, like, super troublemaking political journalist who's in a ska band. And I think I introduced you to Noah Shakman, who you wound up hiring.
- [36:57]
A
You did?
- [36:58]
C
At that time? Yes. I. First of all, it was clear to me that politics was.
- [37:02]
D
Was.
- [37:02]
C
And was going to continue to. I mean, it always is a huge story, but especially in this.
- [37:06]
B
Yeah.
- [37:06]
C
Political era we're in. You know, I wanted somebody who could really handle that in a really serious way and. And keep with Rolling Stone's tradition of being a really serious player in that world. And also there's a huge music staff with a lot of know how and really, really deep knowledge and contacts and relationships in that space. And. And for that reason, I think someone like yourself made sense to make.
- [37:33]
B
Well, you're still recruiting me here, but the. But I guess I'm curious about that because I think I really did love that vision that it was. But I also wonder in retrospect, I actually don't know if you and Noah. You and. Or Noah are like, remain at this point grateful to me for the intro or like, Jesus Christ, that was terrible. You don't have to tell me now, but it now feels like, and certainly in this edition of Rolling Stone, the notion that it's going to be culturally central and have these deep connections to the industry, really investigative and tough on the same industry, and then at the same time be like doing totally haywire political coverage that picks huge fights, whether it's Hudder S. Thompson or Michael Hastings, like, can that still live in one publication? Or was that sort of ultimately not the way modern media is organized? I basically thought you had these ambitions for cultural relevance and really tough journalism, both on the industry and on the President of the United States. That I don't know. I think. I think that the sort of shifts in power, particularly of the industry, make it harder than it was in the 1970s to do all those things at the same time.
- [38:46]
C
I can't speak to Rolling Stone at this very moment, but, yeah, what I can say is I think Rolling Stone's biggest and most important assets were its access, its authority, and its storytelling. And when I say storytelling, I'm talking about ability to work with and find the best writers in the world. And it seemed clear to me that we had to lean into those. Those things. And no matter what was happening and how pervasive kind of social media has become, those were three unique, very valuable attributes that we could offer to the world at the same time, to your point, there is such a avalanche of information coming at everyone on a given day, especially on beats like the White House, where, you know, Rolling Stone had, you know, a tiny modicum of the amount of resources that the New York Times or. Or someone like that has covering this day in, day out. So I didn't want it. It to be like a regular diet. I wanted us to focus on the highest level, deeply reported feature stories in those arena, and then that the sort of like daily, you know, full coverage would be really around the core beat of music and kind of entertainment to agree, but that these other areas where we had history and equity and know how and a muscle, we had to kind of punch big, but less often. So that was really kind of like the mix. And I think that that works, but I think the way you kind of described it is right. That would be too much, I think.
- [40:23]
B
And do you think. I mean, the other big, big shift in music journalism, entertainment journalism, lots of journalism has just been political journalism. Like this shift in power from the media to the sources to the subjects. I mean, just the control over access and the ability, particularly for celebrities just to go direct means that they don't need Rolling Stone the way they used to. And did that mean that you had to be more gentler essentially, with the people you covered? I mean, that anybody has to.
- [40:51]
C
I think a lot of people probably have felt that way. I never felt that way. You're 100% right. Like, the reliance on the media in any industry has become way less. And I think it's put media companies in a really weird position where a lot of them, in response, have published, like, sort of weird stuff to Try and maintain audience. And it's been a very weird incentive. And I think that it's, it requires a different kind of thinking. And yeah, there was an era where with Rolling Stone, if, if we asked someone to be on the COVID just be a no brainer.
- [41:23]
A
Yes.
- [41:24]
C
And then, you know, in recent times, you're like negotiating with someone, you know, that they'll only do it if their own personal photographer could, could take the photo. And it's just lines that I was never willing to cross. And if that meant losing certain opportunities, that's fine. But I always felt like this sort of integrity of the brand was the most important thing. But again, you're, you're right. Like the landscape has changed. And not to like circle it back to Track Star, but it reminded me of kind of the old days of Rolling Stone in the sense that people kind of wanted to participate in it and saw the way that it actually could move the needle and make an impact with its audience in a way they can't quite do on their own and their own channel. That to me was like a hu. Is a huge revelation and something that I think we can build a lot around.
- [42:16]
A
I'm gonna ask the flip side of Ben's question, which is can you think of or remember any times where there were people who came to you and who were, you know, really upset about coverage from Rolling Stone and how did you deal with that? I imagine that that may have happened once or twice.
- [42:34]
C
Oh yeah, constantly. I mean, countless times. People I know, friends, people I don't know coming to me, you know, upset about a story or something. If the journalism was strong enough, it would just be a no brainer and it was a story worth telling. What I hated, especially during a certain period, Rolling Stone got a little guilty of and, you know, quickly moved to address that. But was the kinds of stories that were sort of negative and not important, you know, that wasn't the space I wanted us to play in. But the stories that were important and critical in ways that were answering questions that needed to be posed and answered and relied on real reporting, that was always way more important to me than someone I may have known. That came to me like being upset that that reporting was being done. It was. I mean, I've worked with a lot of people and most would tell you that that's always been how I managed Rolling Stone and certainly was the way. Well, I was gonna talk about how my dad. But he did an amazing job of it. I mean, he. Look, I don't know if. Do you remember the story we did on Johnny Depp.
- [43:46]
A
Yeah, of course.
- [43:47]
C
Incredible piece of journalism. You know, that was someone my dad had been close with and known forever. So.
- [43:53]
B
So how did he just. How did. I mean, I think this is actually something so important for, like, media proprietors who are listening. Like, how you handle that situation, which inevitably comes up when you. When you own or invest in a publication. Like, how did. What did you learn from your dad on that? How did he handle that situation? How did he think about that kind of situation?
- [44:10]
C
I mean, for him, it was an. A whole other level of Harry, because he had Rolling Stone. He also had Us Weekly, which at the time, you know that, and People magazine. They kind of were Instagram in a lot of ways, and they were. They were that big, and it was a celebrity gossip magazine, and there's a lot of celebrity in his life. And so there was all sorts of overlap. And I can't really speak to how he handled it. I can tell you. I know many, many times where he made the sort of noble decision, but I think he had a really good barometer of where the line was and what was kind of worthy. I think with Us Weekly, it was complicated because by nature, it was a gossip magazine, so the lines were way different. But with Rolling Stone, I think he kept a really strong line, and. And, I mean, he was responsible for, I think, some of the most important and impactful cultural, societal journalism of the last 60 years. So maybe he didn't do everything perfect, maybe I didn't do everything perfect, but I think he did a really good job of it.
- [45:18]
A
Gus, did you always want to go into the family business? You started working at Rolling Stone right out of college, and you were thrown into these, as you mentioned earlier, just really intense situations. I can't really imagine what that would be like at 26, to be making the decision about the future of this thing that your dad spent a long time doing. Did you always want to do this?
- [45:44]
C
I mean, my real love was music in college and high school and whatnot. And when I graduated, my intention wasn't to. I couldn't have foreseen the way it went. In fact, my dad, who's a pretty shrewd guy, he sat me down and was like, just so you know, this is going nowhere. And I was like, I don't want it to, but. But I. And he was like, look, even if you were great at this, which, like, the odds of that are pretty slim, he was like, I wouldn't even want, like, to put this burden on you. Like, it's it's. It's a lot. And. But then I think there was something around the fact that it was right at this moment in 2012. And I remember I went to see Shane Smith and Vice was killing it. They were like eating Rolling Stones lunch of this sort of like, new digital media thing. And I was introduced to Shane by Tom Fressen, who was an old friend of my dad's and a big investor and part of Vice's success. And I walked out of his office and I was like, I. And I've said this to Shane before, but. Or after this all, you know, in recent times, but I. I felt just determined on this, like, mission and crusade to make Rolling Stone successful in this new world. And it's sort of of mission was so deep in my blood and feeling that I didn't never even thought, like, is this what I want to do? Is this not what I want to do? It just was like, do it. You know, and that was a big sort of driving force for me. But at the same time, I was. I was like, look, if I'm not good at this, like, proof's in the pudding. Like, the numbers are very clear. Like, I'll do so I should do something else. But. But we kept being successful in building this kind of digital part of the business, which eventually became the whole of the business.
- [47:30]
A
Ben, do you. I feel like that was a pretty interesting time for you as well. Do you remember that kind of intoxicating feeling? I feel like I got there kind of towards the end as the party was tapering off, but I saw all of you doing that and it seemed.
- [47:41]
B
Very exciting doing digital media. Back when things were doing digital media.
- [47:45]
A
When they had parties and it was really fun.
- [47:47]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [47:48]
A
You would walk out of an executive's office and feel excited.
- [47:50]
B
Yeah. And actually I got on the ride in like 2004, and so I never had the, like, the hard part of the job, which Gus had at Rolling Stone was a transformation. I mean, I've never done that. That seems extremely diffic and don't want that job. But there was that sense, which I'm sure you felt at Vice and I'm sure pissed you off of, like, just the arrogance and the sense that, like, the, you know, the sort of future obviously belongs to these newcomers and the legacy brands are obviously, you know, being pushed aside. I don't know. I mean, I think in retrospect, we were so arrogant and, like, pretty much wrong about that.
- [48:23]
C
Well, yeah, I think there was some of that. There was also this Other element, which is like BuzzFeed was VC backed.
- [48:29]
A
Yeah.
- [48:29]
B
We had access to so much capital.
- [48:31]
C
There was so much capital and they were. It almost felt like the mission was just to grow top line revenue as much as possible so they could raise more money at a even higher valuation. So we were left as a privately owned family business who relied and cared about profitability, which of course everything got eventually to that place. But almost competing against these competitors that were like selling, you know, $1 for 50 cents basically. And.
- [49:00]
B
Oh yeah, and I remember at Buzzfeed we were very briefly profitable, I think it was in 2014. And the board, our board was like, what are you doing? Like, why are you profitable? You're supposed to be focused on growth, not profitability. You're obviously not spending our money fast enough.
- [49:15]
C
Not that that is a surprise, but it's so crazy. Look, I'm grateful that, that I came up in a environment that was about managing to profitability and building a sustainable business. And I think it.
- [49:28]
B
It's back in fashion.
- [49:29]
C
It's back in fashion.
- [49:30]
A
It's back in fashion. Well, Gus, we know you gotta go, so last question for you from our producer, which is what are you listening to right now? What's exciting to you musically?
- [49:39]
C
Oh my God.
- [49:40]
A
We were actually specifically asked, by the way, for you to show us the last thing that you were listening to on your phone. Just to keep it honest. But if you would like to, we would be interested in that. That.
- [49:51]
C
Let me see. Oh my God.
- [49:53]
A
Okay.
- [49:54]
C
Well, actually the last thing, the thing that I'm literally up right now is this song called Parachute by Shawn Lenon. And the reason listening to that, because I saw Sean on Friday night and I asked him if he ever thought about that parachute off his record Friendly Fire, which was an amazing record, felt to me like it was lifted for SZA's song Kill Bill. And if you listen to those two songs, like they, they're so strikingly similar. And Sean was like, you know, no one's ever really brought that up to you, but it's always kind of been in the back of my mind. And I was like, it's, it's a, it's a one for. It's like a one for one. But he was like, yeah, that, you know, I probably ripped that off someone else, so whatever. But if that's a great record, but what am I listening to you now? The person that has struck me as a serious talent is this guy McGee. Yeah, yeah, he's. He's really, really brilliant as a guitar player, as A songwriter as a singer, he's. There's something like kind of almost Prince in there, but Fleetwood Mac in a way. So that. That's the person I think is incredible. But I listen to all sorts of music.
- [51:07]
A
Music, yeah. And also an artist who suffers from, in my view, the big problem of music in the Internet age, which is if I've never said the artist out loud, I don't know how to pronounce it. I'm just only familiar from reading the actual words. So maybe that's something that you guys can address with your new media company. But Gus, we really, really. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Gus pronounced as many artists names as possible.
- [51:32]
C
Thank you guys so much. I'm sorry I was a little sick and look a little sick.
- [51:35]
B
You were great, Gus. Thank you.
- [51:36]
A
Great. Thank you so much, Gus.
- [51:37]
C
Thanks, Gus. Talk soon.
- [51:50]
B
We spent 2025 talking to people who channeled the excitement and belief in AI in media and marketing. A lot of that conversation in 2026 will be about the hard work of building with those tools. Think with Google is here to bridge the gap between inspiration and implementation. This isn't fluff. It's a rigorous look at the mechanics of growth to help CMOs solve the hard problems, like navigating complex consumer journeys, improving value through better measurement. Make this the year you turn potential into performance. Visit thinkwithgoogle.com. So Max, that was so fun. Gus was really so open and I don't. I just so deep in the world of music media. Do you buy this basic idea that people are tired of the algorithms and that there's going to be this resurgence in whatever it is, whatever magic Rolling Stone used to have.
- [52:44]
A
I think at the top end, people are definitely interested in breaking free from algorithms. And there is in a moment where so much of our lives are, you know, defined by recommendations and algorithmic feeds. I think that ultimately Gus is right, that it does feel cheap and it's a funhouse mirror version of you. It's like, you know that it's you in there, but you don't necessarily like what you see all the time. This is how I feel in my TikTok feed is I'm like, man, they think I am an idiot who just is interested in cooking videos and menswear and snowboarding and basketball. And I do like all those things, but I actually am much more interested in when I open up my phone, consuming a much broader amount of content that doesn't totally rot my brain and that enriches my life. And so I think definitely there Is space for the things that define you as a person in your taste, the things that you're proud of, like, oh, I love that band, or I love, you know, this thing, this kind of excitement that you get. I think that there is space outside of the algorithm for that. But for a lot of the, like, kind of most, you know, the basic stuff, some kind of your fifth favorite artist, maybe the. The algorithm is going to do that stuff for you. What do you think, Ben?
- [53:59]
B
I mean, I thought actually what you said. Gus said a lot of smart stuff, but I thought what you said about treasuring things you discover outside the algorithm is so true. If it's like, you know, a band, you know, song you found on a show or a person recommended to you, just obviously has more resonance.
- [54:14]
A
We see that too, from the people who we have on the show. Right. Like, people love Blackbird, Spy Plane, because they're like, this is this cool newsletter that I read about that I found out, and I read it, you know, a few times a week. And it's kind of my special thing that feels like part of my tastes. And I think that that's different than just the kind of, you know, I get a lot of FASC content that's pitched to me and that comes at me through the feed. That just lacks that special little personal touch.
- [54:42]
B
Yeah, it's funny. Personalization is actually turns out to be the enemy of the personal touch. Right. Like, personalization is so deeply impersonal, comes from nowhere, and isn't ultimately what anybody likes. Although it's a great utility.
- [54:56]
A
No, absolutely. And in a pinch, it's great. I need to find a hotel. I need to find, you know, something that I don't really care that much about. But for things that you do care deeply about, you know, it can be good to break free of that. The other question that I had for you, Ben, I thought that his point that he made, that it's funny that the creators have all of the audience and excitement and attention, but don't have that great of monetization, and many of the media companies have great monetization, but don't really have any of the big personalities and audiences, was a really interesting point. Did you think that that was true?
- [55:30]
B
Oh, yeah. I mean, I think in some ways that's a very sharp formula for something we're talking about all over the place. Like. Like, why should Versant Media buy or license or whatever, Pod Save America and the Bulwark? It's because they have a giant, rapacious advertising machine across a zillion platforms and plugged into the huge brands that still buy a lot of the advertising, for whom, honestly, a medium sized podcast operation are too small to bother with. And so I do think there are matches to be made between essentially like the ad sales and subscription arms of legacy businesses and the content from new media. And that's. I mean, that's in some way always been the logic of all sorts of different acquisitions.
- [56:13]
A
Yeah. So, Ben, when I was watching the super bowl this weekend, I was watching this lay's ad in which they very sentimentally passed down the potato farm from father to daughter. And it's this very, you know, idealized version of America. And people love the idea of, you know, several generations of farmers in media. We have a very different attitude about that. People think, oh, this is just a nepotism situation. What do you think about Gus's relationship with his family business? And were you kind of surprised by some of the stories and his thinking about how he was navigating, you know, this very difficult time at Rolling Stone while he was 26 years old and his dad was recovering from a heart attack?
- [56:56]
B
Okay, first of all, I actually wept during that lay's ad. Like, that was just, you know, totally directed to me. I wept and went and found some lay's potato chips. But, yeah, you know, it's funny because this is definitely something I've, like, really deeply changed my view on family businesses, which is I remember when we were at buzzfeed, Jonah Peretti and I joking about, it's like the New York Times, you know, wants to find the ideal CEO for the most important news business in the world, and they do a global search to figure out, like, who could be the best possible leader. And oh, my God, what a coincidence. It's the son of the current guy, you know, and that's funny to say, and it sounds ridiculous, right? But I just think, obviously, A.J. salzberger has done a phenomenal job running that place. I mean, look at the Washington Post, look at the New York Times. And in part of it is that sense of, like, long term stewardship. And you're not going to pivot. And you don't think of it as like a brand and you're not looking for an exit and all this sort of, you know, jargon. You're totally committed to the business. I remember Dean Baquet said once that the success of the New York Times rests on the choice by the Salzberger family to be millionaires rather than billionaires millionaires, which I thought, you know, but the other part of it Is that for a smart kid who for whatever screw loose reason is obsessed with following in their father's or their mother's footsteps, you do just learn an enormous amount. And right. You grow up in this thing and it's in your blood and you're obsessed with it. But also, you know, he's learning at the feet of Jan Wenner, who love him or hate him, one of the great media figures of his generation, and obviously has soaked up an enormous amount from that. And so, you know, it gives you a leg up. Like I think a lot of talented actors are the children of other talented actors because they've like studied at their parents feet. And it's a real. It's just, you know, it's unfair, but it is obviously an advantage. You know what, my kids actually listen to this show. I don't think any of them are planning to get into journalism, but I hope they'll consider it. You know, somebody's gonna have to run Semaphore at some point. Eli, are you listening?
- [58:52]
A
Yes. And they definitely picked up a few things wandering around for sure. Or helping you answer your emails while you're driving. But you know, it is true, and it says something that the two most successful media companies in America are run mostly by the children, the family members of the families that owned them. Right? Both the Times and Fox, of course.
- [59:10]
B
Yeah, that's right.
- [59:14]
A
Well, that feels like a great place to leave it. Thank you so much for listening to another episode of Mixed Signals from us here at Semaphore. Our show is expertly produced, as always by Chris McLeod of Blue Elevator Productions and our very own Josh Billinson. With special thanks to Anna Pizzino, Jules Zern, Chad Lewis, Rachel Oppenheim, Tori Kaur, Garrett Wiley, and Daniel Haft. Our engineer is Rick Kwan and our theme music is by the great Steve Bone, who I saw at a party recently. What's up, Steve? Our public editor is Shane Smith. Shane, at one point you were supposed to come on our show and yet you still haven't been on. But Gus had a great time and he's a friend of yours. Come on our show. Oh, yes.
- [59:57]
B
And if you're listening, if you're Shane or, or otherwise, please, please follow us on your favorite podcast platform and subscribe on YouTube.
- [60:03]
A
And if you want more, you can always sign up for Semaphore's media newsletter, out every Sunday night and of course leave us a five star review.
- [60:10]
B
Yeah, please do that. Five stars.