C (3:11)

Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.

B (3:14)

We are thrilled to have you. Okay, I'm calling you Belle, but your full name is Flo Bell. What is the story behind that name?

C (3:24)

So my grandmother's name was Florence Bell Fairbanks, and she was an actress in silent films in California, and she made up Flobel as her stage name. And then she died four months before I was born. And my father stood up at her funeral and gave the eulogy and ended it by saying, if Amanda, my mother, has a girl in May, her name will be Flobel Fairbank Spurden. And everyone cried. The problem was that he had not told my mother, though. So your mom's in the front row. Like, she was not happy. She was really not happy.

B (4:02)

Okay. A silent film actress. That's very chic, though.

C (4:06)

It was cool.

D (4:07)

Yeah.

B (4:07)

Was this the kind of thing where when you were in trouble, you were Flo Bell?

D (4:11)

Yep.

C (4:12)

Flo Bell Burden. Mm.

B (4:13)

Flo Bell Burden.

C (4:14)

Yes. Although I didn't get in trouble too much. I was very nerdy.

B (4:18)

I'm gonna stick with Belle.

C (4:18)

How does that sound? Okay, there you go.

D (4:20)

There you go.

B (4:20)

There you go. Okay, I want pivot from the name just to say, back in 2023, you wrote a Modern Love essay, and it stopped me in my tracks. I could not stop thinking about it. Now you've written a book, which we're here to talk about today. This gives us even more of your story. In it, you talk about how one night, out of the blue, your marriage collapsed and your life changed forever. This happened in March 2020. You wrote that your family, you and your family left Manhattan for your home in Martha's Vineyard. You're quarantining there during the early days of COVID Bring me into sort of that time in your life. What was life like there as you settled in?

C (5:07)

So we drove up there with our two daughters, who were then 15 and 12 and it was a very scary time for all of us. New York was shut down, but we were very lucky that we had a place to go to that was isolated, that. And we really settled in. My husband works for a hedge fund, so he was getting up early and working, and I was doing house cleaning and going for walks. And he loved to be in the forest chopping wood. And he would bring in three different kinds, like blueberry and oak. And he would build these gorgeous fires. He had bought a lot of whiskey. Cause we thought whiskey would kill the virus. And so he made whiskey sours or sometimes, like a hot toddy. And we would sit there and we would read or we would talk about the latest pandemic news. And he was very. In addition to chopping the wood, he loved to make dinner. He loved to really kind of make sure that we were secure and ready for this period of quarantine. And so it was both a scary time, but also very. I felt very safe with my girls in the house all the time, and just that kind of coziness together.

B (6:22)

Mm. Did anything. Did anything seem off with your husband?

C (6:28)

Nothing seemed off at all. Honestly, if he. If I think back on it, he was. He spent a lot of time in the woods, and. But that was not abnormal. He always did that. We were very affectionate with each other. There was absolutely nothing that made me worried.

B (6:45)

And you've been married at this point for now how many years?

C (6:48)

20 years.

B (6:48)

20 years in.

D (6:49)

20.

C (6:49)

20.

B (6:52)

This is. This is where your Modern Love essay begins. Bring me into this night where everything changed.

C (7:01)

We had a really nice dinner, and I started cleaning up. Loading the dishwasher, mopping the floor. And I got a call on my cell phone. And then it registered the message. And I pressed play, and it was a man. And he said, I'm trying to reach Bell. I can still hear it. I'm trying to reach Belle. I'm sorry to tell you that your husband is having an affair with my wife.

B (7:27)

What was your immediate reaction?

C (7:30)

My immediate feeling was that this could not be. This can't be true. And that my husband would explain it, that it was some kind of mistake, some kind of misunderstanding. It did not fit at all with what I knew of my husband. I was wearing pajama pants and, like, a cozy sweater, and I'd just taken a shower. And I can still feel that feeling of sort of the coziness with the. Just panic.

B (8:01)

You get that voicemail. Then what happens?

C (8:05)

Our kitchen is upstairs. So I started going downstairs to find my husband. And he was coming Upstairs. And I could tell that he knew. Cause he looked worried. And he said it meant nothing. It was very short. I love you. I love only you. I love our family. I'm so sorry. I'm so embarrassed.

B (8:34)

Where are you two? Are you holding hands? Are you sitting around?

C (8:37)

We are. He's taken my hands. He's looking directly in my eye. And I remember looking down at our hands. And he had his wedding ring on. That's very scuffed from wearing it for 20 years. And I had no rings on because a friend had told me that Covid could hide under rings. Cause you can't get soap and Purell in there. So I had taken them all off. And as I'm sitting there with him holding my hands, I think, wow, did I cause this because I took off my wedding ring. For the first time in 20 years, I was someone who never took off my wedding ring and my engagement ring. And I thought maybe I had shaken something loose in the universe and that this had led to this moment. I mean, not thinking rationally, but that's where I was. But I think I also thought, okay, we're in this house together. We can't go anywhere. We're in lockdown. We are going to have to live here together and try and work through this and see a therapist on Zoom. And, you know, just, how am I going to manage this? And then at that moment, my younger daughter, who was called for me and asked me to make her turnovers, which is a thing that we have in our family. I do not make them from scratch. They're Pepperidge Farm frozen turnovers.

B (9:57)

Delicious.

C (9:58)

And I realize I have to pretend that everything is okay for the girls until we can figure out what's happening and what we're doing. And so I sort of raised my voice to sound chipper and said, okay, I'll make the turnovers. And I left the room at that point and put the turnovers in the oven. And then. And just where I could seal myself in and close the bathroom door and just wailed where I was like. I just couldn't contain it any longer.

B (10:34)

What was flashing through your mind? Was it the past? Was it the future?

C (10:38)

I think I was trying to. My brain was trying to fit it together with what I knew of him or thought I knew of him. And. And just shock, absolute shock that this is all unfolding and my girls are, like, watching television and, like, have no idea anything is going on. Yep.

B (10:56)

And then how does the night. I mean, does it. Like, how does the night end? Can you even Sleep.

C (11:01)

I mean, I can't sleep. I go downstairs to check on the girls because I had not put the younger one to bed. And they're both asleep in their beds, and my husband is asleep in my son's bed. My son is with friends on Long island, and he looks very peaceful. And I'm sort of, again, yes, sleeping peacefully. And I'm thinking, how can he be sleeping? How can he be not just in a state of distress? Yeah, I haven't slept all night. I mean, our marriage is either, you know, going to go through a very difficult period, or it might end. And he's sleeping, and I can't quite understand that. But at six in the morning, I'm in my bed, not sleeping, and he comes in and he's carrying a tote bag, and he says to me, I thought I was happy, but I'm not. I've decided I want a divorce. And I was stunned because I honestly thought it would be my decision to make whether we would stay married or not or how we would negotiate this. But it was not going to be my decision. It was going to be his decision. And I looked at him, and in that moment, he seemed very, very different to me. His eyes looked different.

B (12:21)

The warmth had gone from the words he said last night, which is, this was a mistake. You know, I love you. And now what did he say?

C (12:32)

He says, I haven't been happy, and I want a divorce. And I'm leaving.

B (12:37)

And I'm leaving.

C (12:38)

And I'm leaving. I'm leaving.

B (12:40)

And the bag is packed. Wow.

C (12:42)

The bag is packed. And then he says, you're going to be okay. You're still young. And honestly, I was not young. I had just turned 50. And then he walked out of the room, walked to our front door, walked out, got in his Jeep and boarded a ferry and left. And one thing I didn't mention is he said before he left, he said, actually, I'm sorry. He said it when he got to New York. He said, you can have custody of the kids. You can have the house and the apartment. I don't want any part of this life anymore.

B (13:24)

I mean, I am just hearing about this. I didn't live it, and I'm completely disoriented. Yes.

C (13:31)

It's disgusting. Absolutely, total shock.

B (13:36)

Total.

C (13:37)

Just absolutely physical pain that this had happened. And a double shock, because there was the shock of the affair and then the shock of this decision.

B (13:48)

You can have full custody of the kids. Mm. I mean, that must have been.

C (13:56)

That really shocked me.

D (13:57)

That.

C (13:58)

That shocked me. And the saying That I could have. The vineyard house shocked me because he loved that place and the land so much.

B (14:06)

Your children.

C (14:07)

But the children was the most shocking part. It has been the most difficult part of all of this.

B (14:13)

Did you ask him why? Why is this like, what is. Why is this happening?

C (14:18)

When he left, I didn't have a chance because he left very quickly. So I just kept calling him. I would go to places where the girls couldn't hear me, in the garage, in the woods, in my bathroom. Again, just calling and just begging him to tell me, to explain, to tell me what was wrong with me, what he wasn't happy about, to say that he was in love. Which happens, you know, it makes sense.

B (14:45)

It would make anything make sense.

C (14:46)

It would be an explanation. But he couldn't do it or he wouldn't do it. He said it was not my fault, which should be reassuring, but it's also just a non answer. And he really would give me nothing. And the only thing he would tell me is that he felt like a switch had flipped and that he thought he wanted our life, but he didn't. He thought he was happy, but he wasn't and that he was done.

B (15:23)

At some point, you have to tell the kids.

D (15:26)

Yeah.

B (15:30)

How did they find out?

C (15:31)

So a therapist I spoke with had advised that we not tell them until the pandemic became less scary. And of course, as we all know, it did not. It just became more scary. But after a month, I just thought, I can't keep pretending. We have to tell them.

B (15:47)

And up to this point, sorry, what had you been telling the kids about where he was?

C (15:52)

I said he was in New York working. He had to go back to work.

B (15:55)

And did the kids try to reach out to him, do you know, or did you?

C (15:59)

Not that I know of. Not that I know of.

B (16:01)

And did he reach out to them?

C (16:02)

He did not reach out to them, to my knowledge.

B (16:06)

So this conversation about what had happened would be the first time he was. I mean, certainly you were talking face to face again. He was talking to the kids. Okay, so how did you decide to.

C (16:17)

Eventually, um. My husband was on his way up to the island. His boss had lent him use of a seaplane. He arrives and I watched him come up the walkway. And what I thought to myself is, he seems happy. He seems like kind of, you know, spring in his step. And he said he had 45 minutes until he had to go back to the seaplane. Actually, I think it was 90 minutes. I can't remember if it's 45 or 90, but something short and wait.

B (16:48)

Why?

C (16:49)

He said the pilots had to go back. So I sat on the couch with the girls, my arms around them, and my husband sort of paced in front of them and said the same thing. I've not been happy, and I've decided that we're going to divorce. And my younger daughter turned and was smiling. And I think she thought this was like, some big act, and it was a joke. Yeah. And then she looked at my face and saw how sad I looked, and she just screamed. And my older daughter just sat very calmly with her arms crossed. She's just watching her father. And my husband looked at me and said, I'm starving. Can you make me a sandwich?

B (17:41)

Oh, my God.

C (17:42)

Bill and I had one of those moments that I think we have as parents where I have a whole dialogue with myself. What would a good mother do in this situation? This is my child's father. I want her to feel like things will be okay, that we'll be friends. I'm a child of divorce. I hated if my parents spoke badly of each other. You want to feel like your parents are going to get along. And of course, another part of me is thinking, what are you talking about? I'm not going to make you a sandwich. But I went with making the sandwich. So I went to the kitchen, and I really tried to make the best sandwich I possibly could. Because I thought, if I'm going to do this, I'm not going to make a bad sandwich. I will make the best sandwich he has ever had. So that he will say to himself, how could I possibly leave this woman who can make these incredible sandwiches? This is what I'm thinking to myself.

B (18:38)

I mean, I'm laughing, but it's a dark laughter.

C (18:41)

It is. It's really.

B (18:42)

Was the sandwich banging? What was on the laugh?

C (18:44)

It was. I mean, it was. I wouldn't say it was unusually banging, but it was. It was a good sandwich. It was like toasted bread. And put it on a nice plate and got a nice napkin. So I was. You know, I was performing. And, you know, part of me regrets it. I should have been like, make your own sandwich. But I. That's what I did.

B (19:03)

You did it. You make him this amazing sandwich, Bring it to him.

C (19:10)

I start walking around the house looking for him, assuming he's gonna be with one of the girls. Yeah, he is not with the girls. And I eventually find him in the basement. And I said, what are you doing? What's going on? And he said, I'm looking for our prenup. If you have it. You have to give it to me. And I said, please don't do this now. Please go be with the girls. You have to go back to the airport.

B (19:39)

The whole point of these visits, that's why we're here 90 minutes or whatever.

C (19:43)

You have, please go back to see the girls. He didn't. And eventually he gave up. And he came upstairs, took the sandwich from me, ate the sandwich by the door, and then left again. And then I got a text from my husband saying, that was a great visit with an exclamation mark. I feel like I've just lived one reality, a moment that all parents dread, all children remember forever. But he was trying to make it something that was good.

B (20:27)

We'll be right back.

E (20:48)

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B (21:59)

You write in your book, you know, you grew up in a very prominent New York City family. Your lineage, I guess that's the right word, includes John Jay. Is that correct? Yeah, the Vanderbilts, you know, your grandmother's babe Paley. Really incredible magazine editor, socialite. This world that you grew up in in New York is not a world that a lot of people have access to. Did you feel like there were certain norms or expectations around how marriage, what marriage should be, in the way you were raised?

C (22:31)

In some ways, yes. I think because of where I grew up, in terms of the Upper east side and then, you know, going to. There was, you know, an expectation that you would meet your mate and you would get. Have a nice wedding and you would get married and, you know, there was sort of a playbook for that. But I think it was more internal because I'd been through two divorces. My parents divorce and then my mother's divorce from my stepfather. And I had a deep yearning for to be married for eternity and to have an intact family. I think it was the thing I wanted to most in life. And I had also seen my father and my stepmother, who had a wonderful marriage, and that was my goal.

B (23:13)

What did you think made a good marriage?

C (23:17)

Well, I've given more thought to that now, I think. But I actually thought I was improving on the model when I got married, when I chose my husband.

B (23:28)

Why?

C (23:29)

Because the men in my family, I love them very much, but they have tempers. They have tempers that are not super scary, but more like stomping your feet. Sorry, I just stomped my foot. And there's always a lot of yelling. And my husband, from the day I met him, was always very calm. He didn't believe in yelling. Our house was really free from yelling, other than children yelling. And so I thought I had really improved. And I would pick someone who was wonderfully calm in that way that I did not have growing up.

B (24:05)

And steady, it sounds like.

C (24:07)

Yes, very steady.

B (24:08)

You know, you mentioned you were a quiet, in your words, sort of nerdy kid in your book. You talk about a nickname you had your brother gave you when you were growing up. Belle the Good. So were you like a rule following kid? What was your.

C (24:21)

Absolutely. I was very quiet. I was very painfully shy. So I was the rule follower. I did not break any rules. And it was a little bit boring, I think.

B (24:31)

Hmm. Tell me about the first time you met the man that would become your husband. What were your first impressions of him?

C (24:40)

My first impressions were that he was. That he looked very much like. Had similar look to my father.

B (24:47)

He was either good or bad.

C (24:49)

Yes. He was 6ft tall. They were both 6ft tall, blonde, preppy, went to boarding school. And at that time in my life, I was not interested in that. He also, the first time I met him, I was filling out an Oscar, and I love movies. And he had no idea about any of the movies or actors or actresses. And I just thought, who is this guy? Like, it seemed like a problem. So I did not think anything would come of it. And then we started working together, and I was pretty dazzled by his brain, by his intelligence. He was an amazing lawyer. And I was very drawn to his manner. Very well mannered, very kind, Very kind to people around him. So I started to, like, started to think about it.

B (25:33)

To soften.

C (25:34)

Yes.

B (25:35)

That he was interested in you.

C (25:37)

I started to get that sense. And then he sent me an email and said, would you consider ditching your boyfriend? And you were dating someone? I was dating someone, yes. I was living with someone.

B (25:49)

Oh, my gosh.

C (25:51)

And I said, I can't. You know, I'm living with someone. I can. It said, would you consider ditching your boyfriend and coming to Greece with me this August? I still have a. And initially, I said, no. And then two weeks later, I was actually going away with my stepmother and my grandmother and my cousin, and I was working late, and he came into my office and he said, I just wanted to say goodbye. And he shut the door, and I sort of stood up, and he came over to me, and he kissed me.

B (26:23)

Whoa.

C (26:24)

And it was by far the best kiss of my life.

D (26:27)

And.

C (26:27)

And something just clicked. I just knew that this was my person.

B (26:35)

Wow.

C (26:36)

I broke up with the boyfriend. Our lease had already was ending anyway, so we're going to different apartments. Yes, very. So we got together, and it was just fireworks. And we got engaged three months later.

B (26:55)

Tell me what you mean by fireworks, because that can mean a lot. What was it? Was it sparky conversation? Was it amazing sex? Like, what was.

C (27:01)

Was unbelievable sex. That was the. That was the. You know, that I did not expect from the steady lawyer. I did not expect that at all. But we were very physically attracted to each other. But he had this way of introducing me to New York in a way that, you know, I'd grown up. We'd both grown up here, but he brought me to Chinatown to give me soup dumplings for the first time. I had my first oyster with him. He just sort of took charge in a very gentlemanly way. And my father had died two years before, and I think I was very primed at that moment to. I don't think that's why. But I think he really swooped in and offered both this intimacy and connection, but also a sense of, this is a very capable, strong person who will take care of me.

B (28:00)

Definitely. You mentioned that he grew up in New York. Was he sort of a part of the world? You'd grown up in the Upper east side, like, private school.

C (28:08)

He was four years older, and he went to a boys school. I went to a girls school. But he was part of that world. He was definitely part of that world and was around a lot of very wealthy families, had very wealthy friends, but at the same time, in his own family, was experiencing a lot of financial stress.

B (28:28)

Huh. And did he. Was he open about that with you when you were getting.

C (28:32)

He was. I Could tell it was a very tender part of him, very painful part of him. I could tell that it was sort of a very motivating thing in him in order to, you know, really motivate him at the firm. And he wanted to make money, and he wanted to be successful in that way.

B (28:49)

For sure. It sounds like. Cause his family wasn't.

C (28:51)

What's that?

B (28:52)

Secure. Because his family was.

C (28:53)

Wanted to make himself secure. And he had been a very rebellious teenager. And then when he was in college, he used that same phrase, the switch went off, and he decided that he was going to transfer to an Ivy League school, which he did, and graduated summa cum laude and then went to the DA's office and then went to law school and then went to the firm. And he just, like, switched Personas very dramatically.

D (29:19)

Hmm.

B (29:21)

So you get married, you move into this apartment in Manhattan. Beautiful apartment in Manhattan. You have kids. You have three kids. You have these gorgeous summers. I mean, you describe them so beautifully. On Martha's Vineyard, your husband works for a hedge fund. Eventually, you're staying home, you're raising the kids. It sounds perfect.

C (29:42)

Well, nothing's perfect, obviously, but I felt like we were very aligned and happy together and intentional about how we wanted to have our lives be and to. And made decisions together. And so I felt like we were in it. You know, even though it may not have been perfect and easy all the time, I felt like we were in it together the way other couples are.

B (30:09)

Did you feel lucky?

C (30:10)

I felt very lucky. I felt. And honestly, I still feel lucky. I feel very lucky because I felt like there was true happiness a lot of the time. I have these three amazing kids. I had, for me, a feeling of absolute love for this person, and I feel proud of that. So even though it ended in this awful way, I still have that. I still. I'm still grateful for that, honestly.

B (30:45)

I really believe it. You sound. You were in it. Yeah. That's your word. You were in it. And I really believe that. Thank you. And then I almost. It's so hard to reconcile this night that we started our conversation with nothing changed. I mean, it's like, did that make you question everything you thought you knew about everything you thought you knew, period?

C (31:07)

It's an interesting thing that happens, and people did ask me, are you rethinking all your memories together? And someone asked me if I. I was gonna burn my wedding album. And I might have other reasons for burning my wedding album. I didn't. There's some pictures I don't love, but not because I Felt like I needed to burn that part of us. I think that you can believe that was true and then also believe it changed at some point, a point that I don't know when it changed. It may not have changed until two weeks before he left. It may have changed two years. It may have changed five years. But there was definitely a period of time where that all was true, I believe. Yeah.

B (31:55)

After your husband left, when did you start to think about telling other people sort of beyond the inner circle?

C (32:06)

Well, right in the beginning, he said or he texted. I think we should say that this is amicable. It's better for you if we say that. And I think that made sense, knowing what he knew of me, that I tend to be very private, that I'm not a big, like, confessor, sharer. But I knew right from the beginning that I had to tell the truth about this. Not to bash him, but because I couldn't tell an untrue story about what I was experiencing and survive it. I had to be honest. So I told people, both friends and people I didn't know that well, I would say he left me. I have no idea why. And I'm in agony. It was all I could say. And I think people were genuinely shocked, not just by the story, but that I was saying it.

B (33:07)

Wow, you said those words. I am in agony.

C (33:11)

I am in agony.

B (33:12)

I mean, it's so honest. What made you. I mean, I hear what you're saying, that you couldn't tell a lie and survive this. But that kind of honesty is not something we often. That part of ourselves, that honest part of our. That's something we often show people.

C (33:27)

Yes.

B (33:28)

And certainly you didn't. What motivated you to be so honest?

C (33:31)

I think I felt like I had this open wound. Right. And like, I was bleeding, and I couldn't kind of explain my presence or even operate in a conversation without saying, this is why I am bleeding, and this is why I can't actually talk normally. And I think I was looking for life ropes. I just was, like, looking for some kind of. I don't know, just some company in it.

B (33:59)

Yeah, you said that you were honest. It was the only way to survive. We talked a bit about sort of, like, the world that you grew up in, and I imagine discretion is a part of that. I guess I really want to know, like, what compelled you to kind of break that norm?

C (34:18)

I think part of it for me that came up very early was that both my mother and my grandmother had infidelity in their relationships, and they were always very Elegant, always very graceful, but in a way that really protected the men. And I was never interested in, you know, kind of bashing my husband, but I felt like I was not going to clean this up very gracefully and sweep it under the rug and say, keep up appearances. Fine. Keep up appearances. And that there was some kind of strength that would come from that. I think a lot about legacy. I have two daughters and a son, equally important, and I'm hoping that in doing it this way, that it might change that.

B (35:18)

How did people react? Do you remember specific. A couple specific reactions people had?

C (35:23)

It was an interesting thing because in Martha's Vineyard, we belong to a club that's like a tennis club. And people started coming back in May and June, and it's a very married place. Like, I only know of a couple people who are divorced. So you feel very alienated. You feel like an alien, is what I would say. And that from one day to the next, to go from feeling like you're part of things and you're one of this community to feeling like an alien is hard. And I'm certainly not alone in that. I think a lot of divorcing people feel that way. When you go from one side to the other, it's a jarring experience.

B (36:05)

Did you have the sense that people were gossiping about you? Like, was that something you were aware of?

E (36:10)

Yes.

C (36:10)

I would have been gossiping about it, too. I actually don't blame them for that. It's a pretty dramatic story, and I think gossip can be kind, too. You just say, is she okay?

B (36:21)

Is there one maybe moment you can share where you felt alien? Like, is there a thing that comes to mind?

C (36:28)

There were a couple of instances where people spoke about my story, where it was reframed, that this was actually a love story, but my husband's love story with his mistress, and it's actually a good thing that he left because he's going to be happy. And I just thought, what about my love story with my husband? Like, how have I become the, you know, the collateral in this, rather than, like, a star player or another instance where someone just launched into talking about how wonderful my husband was? Which is a nice sentiment, but it felt very strange in that context. But the thing that was the hardest, which I heard a few times, was that it wasn't clear who should remain a member of the club. And even as I talk about this, it seems sort of silly because it's like this small club. Who cares? Whatever. It's a private club. No one should be members of private clubs. But. But in that moment, it felt so shocking to me.

B (37:31)

Why would you not? What does that mean?

C (37:33)

Because the club has a tradition that if you divorce, only one member can remain in the club and the other member has to reapply, which is a three year process. So I just assumed that I would be a member of the club. I had bought my house, I was with the kids. He was in New York having an affair. But that wasn't clear to everyone who should remain a member.

B (37:58)

Well, let me just say too, I mean, I know that you know, you know this and you feel it. It's not. I mean, it's about the club, certainly. I mean, you're. But it also isn't about that. It's like about what that represents. Right. It's like your people seeming like they could turn their back on you in a dime.

C (38:14)

Yep. Because of this circumstance, who was able.

B (38:18)

To stay a part of the club? Tell me that you were.

C (38:21)

I was.

B (38:21)

Okay.

C (38:22)

I was able to stay a part of the club. And people have been very welcoming and kind to me.

B (38:27)

Before you. You knew that. I'm happy to hear that. By the way, before you knew that and you were hearing these rumors, how did that make you feel?

C (38:37)

I felt deeply wounded. Really deeply wounded. And by the way, I'm talking about this. There are so many worse things that happen in life, but we're like, we're going down this road. So I think it is reflective of when women divorce and they lose that status of being married, especially to a man who has money and all those things that you can be treated in a way you do not expect.

B (39:08)

Discarded.

C (39:09)

Discarded. I felt discarded by him. That's exactly right. I felt discarded by him. And then I thought I could be discarded by my community.

B (39:18)

And let's just say I appreciate you saying, you know, there are worse things. Of course there are. Not all of us belong to a club. A three year application process. I'm like, I'll throw my name in the hat, but I don't think it's gonna anyway, you know, but it's like this is your. That's your personal context. But the things you're describing, this pain, this alienation, this feeling discarded. This feeling, like, what's my value now to you all? Or I'm reaching out. Are you going to reach back out towards me? Like these things, I think cross context and class, let's just say it, you know what I mean? Like, they just. They do.

C (39:51)

That is my hope and that is part of my desire to write the book. And there were some Very difficult moments. And I think people focus on those. But by and large, there was such kindness people, because, you know, people are talking about it. And one thing I've learned from the experience is no matter what it is, no matter what has happened to somebody, it usually is the right thing to say something.

B (40:17)

Yeah.

C (40:17)

And when someone reaches, whether by text or that man who sat in my living room and said, what's happening is not okay.

B (40:26)

I remember this scene from your book. Yeah. Can you bring me into that? You had some friends over.

C (40:31)

Yeah. They lived overseas, and they were one of the first couples to come back to the island. And I walked with the wife, and she knew everything that was going on. And she said, my husband wants to come over and talk to you. And I had met him because our sons were friends, but I didn't know him well and I didn't know what to expect. And they came and. And they sat in my living room and we had tea. And he put down his tea and he said, I see you walking. I see you losing weight. I see that you are in fight or flight. And I want you to know that leaving your family during a pandemic is wrong. How he's treating you now is wrong. And if anyone tells you it isn't, don't listen to them. And he said, if he tries to come back here, you should padlock the gate.

B (41:26)

Wow.

C (41:27)

And it was so clear and so unequivocal. And it felt, I think, particularly meaningful in that moment to have a man be clear about it.

B (41:40)

Yeah. You should padlock the gate.

C (41:43)

Yeah.

B (41:43)

Did you agree with him in that moment?

C (41:45)

Well, it was kind of the first time I had thought about that. Cause it's telling me to have a boundary.

B (41:50)

Yeah.

C (41:51)

And I think as women, we're often taught that to be a good ex, there should be no boundary. And that you should mix, you should make the sandwich, and you should welcome the person back for the good of the children. And from that moment, actually, I have set boundaries. And those boundaries have been very helpful to me.

B (42:17)

Stay with us.

E (42:32)

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D (43:03)

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B (44:08)

You're on Martha's Vineyard. Eventually, you return to New York and.

C (44:11)

Divorce proceedings began almost immediately. Yes.

B (44:16)

When you told me about him leaving, your husband said, you can take the house, you can have the kids. I don't want any of it.

C (44:23)

Mm.

B (44:24)

So was that the custody arrangement that he suggested as well?

C (44:28)

I actually served up my lawyer and I served up a 50, 50 custody agreement because that what I would have wanted as a kid. I had a very 70s arrangement where I only saw my father every other weekend. But I wanted 50, 50. I wanted the kids to go back and forth in whatever way we decided, split holidays and vacations. He sent it back blacklined with all of his time taken out. He did not want them to have to go back and forth. He thought that they were fully formed human beings.

B (44:57)

How old were they?

C (44:58)

They were 12, 15, and 18. So they were not tiny. But my 12 year old really wanted 12 years old.

B (45:05)

I mean, I'm sorry, at his house.

C (45:09)

And he did not do that. So that really shocked me when I got that custody agreement back with all of the time taken out. And that was very painful and painful for my kids.

B (45:22)

I can't imagine. I'm really sorry. I mean, just seeing that blacked out must have been, I mean, as you say, really painful. Had he been an attentive father up to this point?

C (45:35)

He had been a very kind and sweet father. He had been. He took the girls to every musical. He took them to soup dumplings every weekend. He took our son to 5am hockey practice. He was not a yeller, as I've said. He was very loving and sweet with them, but he did not do bedtime, bath, dinner with them. He did not want to. He was working. So I Think we. I wouldn't say he was like, very hands on, but he was a very lovely father.

B (46:10)

So this wasn't a massive rupture. I mean, this was.

C (46:14)

This was a big change and not what I would have expected. I believe in his mind he thought he was doing something that was good for them, that they wouldn't have to do this back and forth. But the way I talk about it with the kids is he just has not been able to create a home. Like, he just was not able to do that. And I don't know why.

B (46:36)

That honesty is powerful. You don't know why? Yeah. And why. Why manufacture reason. Like, it's very powerful for an adult. I mean, for anyone, I guess. But, you know, I'm like a mom to be like, I don't know.

C (46:51)

I just don't. And I really do not. And I still don't know. And I just didn't wanna say, you know, this is normal. Like, I know your friend Olivia has a room at her dad's house, but you don't. And that's all fine. I wanted to acknowledge for her, I know it's really hard that you don't have a bedroom there.

B (47:08)

Yeah, I'm just thinking about that. But when the divorce was finalized, how much time had passed since that night on Martha's Vineyard? Like, how long did it take to get there?

C (47:18)

He left in March of 2020, and we were. We signed our divorce agreement in October of 21. So all things considered, quite fast.

B (47:29)

Quite, quite fast.

C (47:32)

But I really made a decision which I think is hard for people to put together with me writing a book. But I really didn't want to live in the divorce. I didn't want to live in the. You know, he walked away with this. And I was married to him for 20 years. And I, you know, so I remember signing the agreement. Like, I am signing this and I am putting it behind me. And then I went back to my maiden name, which felt very empowering. And you have to have that in your divorce agreement. The judge has to agree to it. And then I went through this process of changing my name on my passport and my driver's license and each step and really taking control of my financial life. And each step felt like a better focus than looking backward at what I got or didn't get or anything like that.

B (48:24)

Back to Flobel, back to.

C (48:25)

Back to Hairbanks, Burden, the whole thing right back.

B (48:30)

Was that a reclamation? Was that a statement? What was that?

C (48:37)

It was. I was very clear on it very early, and it wasn't so much discarding his name, which is my children's name. And that was a little bit hard for my kids. I think they wanted me to stay one of them and our last name. But for me, it really felt like coming back to myself, who I was before I got married to my family of origin. And obviously it's another man's name. It's my father's name. It's not that feminist, but it felt really good. It felt like a very tangible way to come back to myself.

B (49:17)

Under the name Bell Burden, you write this modern love essay, and in it, you tell the story of your husband leaving. You've now written this book, sharing even more of the story. I can see how it might. Writing the essay, writing the book, it could feel risky. You are very honest and open. And I can also see how it would be even more risky, sort of, given the. I don't know. I keep saying the world that you're from, but it's just like, we've talked the club of it, all, right? Like, the growing up, you know, on the Upper east side, still being friends with those people. Like, this is a tight community. Right. I can see how it could feel even riskier for not expected. Right.

C (50:02)

Sometimes I still can't believe it, that I'm doing it, that I did it. Yes. Sometimes I really cannot believe it.

B (50:09)

So I said it was risky, but it also sounds like it felt really fucking good.

C (50:13)

It really did. It really, really did. And the night it came out, I just. It appeared on my screen, and I was like, oh, my God, I really did this.

B (50:22)

Wow.

C (50:22)

I really did this.

B (50:24)

Was there a part of you when you. I know you're not hitting publish because that's not really how, you know, publishing works, but when you sent it in, whatever, right when it came out, did you kind of have this vibe of like, let's burn it all down a little?

C (50:38)

It did, and it still does right now. You know, I feel a lot of the same fear on the eve of publication that, oh, my God, I'm. You know, I'm gonna forever be attached to this story of my husband leaving me. But there is a part of me that's like, burn it all down. Like, we are just. We're on this planet for such a short time. Like, just, I am going for it, and come what may, and if it causes upset and discomfort, like, this is the more strong part of me that's like, let's do it.

B (51:14)

What did people say to you after it came out?

C (51:16)

I imagine the overwhelming reaction that I carry with me is from strangers who wrote to me and said the same thing happened to me, both men and women, actually. A sudden ending to a relationship with no explanation and no lead up or warning and how that feels and how disorienting that is, and that it helped them to hear me talk about it. And then in turn, their letter to me made me feel less alone in it. But there was some discomfort for sure. There was definitely some shock and discomfort both from strangers and from people I knew.

B (51:53)

Huh. Did anyone say anything to you directly, like, I can't believe you published?

C (51:58)

One friend did, and she's a fantastic person and we've totally worked through it, but she just was like, this is shocking. Like, why would you do this? Yeah, it took me a while to really get my head about it. Cause I was holding the paper. It was the Sunday that it came out in the paper. I'm like, but look at my byline. I've been published. What do you mean? And I think people are not used to women telling these stories that often than to do it in print.

B (52:31)

How many years has it been since you and your ex got divorced now?

C (52:35)

It has been about four years since we've been divorced.

B (52:39)

And are you two still in contact?

C (52:42)

We are in very limited contact. Occasionally about something with the kids, occasionally about something financial, but we do not have a real relationship.

B (52:55)

Are the kids seeing him?

C (52:58)

They. He's very sweet with them. They do things occasionally like dinner or Rangers game, but there are no overnights or vacations or anything like that.

B (53:10)

So he's held steady?

C (53:11)

He's held steady on that?

B (53:12)

Yes, to what he had in the divorce papers. Now, five and a half years later, do you feel like you have any clarity on why this happened?

C (53:25)

The closest I can get to it because he still has never offered me an explanation does come from him, which is the idea of the switch going off. And I think a lot about playing roles. And I used to think of it as he was playing, you know, the role of husband and father, believing that was his role. And at some point, I think he was playing that role for himself. And at some point it became unsustainable for him and he took off that costume. And he wasn't able to do it gracefully or in a way that he could explain. And that's how I think about it.

B (54:13)

Took off that costume. Wow.

C (54:15)

Yeah.

B (54:16)

I wonder if your understanding of this will continue to evolve. And I also wonder whether that question of why will become less and less important to you.

C (54:24)

It has become less important to me. And I think I've made peace with the fact that I won't know because I'm not sure he knows.

B (54:33)

Do you like this person you are now?

C (54:36)

A lot more, actually. I really do. I really do, which I never would have said. And I don't think I could be this person if my marriage hadn't ended. And I would never have ended it. You know, I'm still shy. I'm still a little bit awkward socially. I haven't noticed that. Some of that is still tough for me. But I feel like I fully inhabit my life right now. And I think when you're married and have all the cushioning and all that stuff, I don't think I was. It's a different kind of happy ending.

B (55:09)

It is a different kind of happy ending. Your book ends with you running into your ex husband in the city.

C (55:17)

Yeah.

B (55:18)

Can you tell me that story?

C (55:19)

Yes. I was walking with a friend and we were walking near Brooklyn Bridge and I heard my name, someone calling my name. Belle. Belle. And I looked to see who it was. And across that kind of road where you get onto the Brooklyn Bridge, my ex husband was standing there waving at me and smiling.

B (55:43)

What did he look like?

C (55:45)

He looked very happy and cheerful and like we were long lost friends. He's just like, everything's fine. Like he just doesn't see the toll that all of this took. And there's this man I was with for 20 years, slept in bed with for 20 years, and I do not know him anymore. I do not know how he spends his. Do not know his character. I do not know how he makes decisions and also that he really does not know me. So I say hi and I could see out of the corner of my eye he was still standing there, but I just kept moving forward.

B (56:31)

Bell Burnon, thank you for sharing your story. I mean, it's so powerful.

C (56:37)

Thank you.

B (56:39)

We reached out to Bell's ex husband for comment on some of the things we talked about in this episode related to their divorce and custody of their children. This is his response. While I disagree with many of her recollections as well as her overall mischaracterization of my relationship with my children, I do not wish to comment in more detail in order to protect them from further violations of their privacy, other than to say that I continue to lovingly support and be lovingly supported by my children. The Modern Love team is Amy Pearl Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Reeva Goldberg and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Amy Pearl and Sarah Curtis. It was edited by Lynn Levy and Jen Poyant. Original music in this episode by Rowan Niemisto, Marion Lozano and Dan Powell. Dan also composed our theme music. This episode was mixed by Daniel Ramirez. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones. And Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we've got those instructions in our show Notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening. Happening.