Is Codependency Good?

Summary

Modern Love (The New York Times)
Episode: “Is Codependency Good?”
Air date: May 27, 2026
Host: Anna Martin
Guests: Mark Duplass and Katie Aselton

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Episode Overview

This episode of Modern Love explores the much-maligned concept of codependency within romantic relationships, challenging its bad reputation and questioning whether it can be not only healthy, but beautiful. Host Anna Martin’s guests are Mark Duplass and Katie Aselton, a married filmmaking duo, who share candid stories from their 20-year marriage—personal and professional lives deeply intertwined—and openly embrace their codependency. Their experiences inspire their new movie, “Magic Hour.” The episode delves into what codependency means to them, its role in their creative work, how it manifests in both healthy and volatile ways, and what it means to remain distinct individuals within a tightly bonded partnership.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Redefining Codependency (04:00–07:00)

• Codependency's Reputation: Anna sets up how codependency is often seen as negative—"like a dirty word"—and contrasts this with Mark and Katie's pride in being codependent.
• Rebranding Codependency: Katie jokes, “There are no aliens. There's no nothing. There's just us. It's just different forms of our relationship.” (03:52)
• Katie: “We're on this campaign to rebrand codependency. Like Kale. I totally know, like, Kale had such a great publicist. Like, we are that for codependency. 100%.” (05:54)
• Mark equates it to finding a fourth table leg—"are you more stable with a fourth [leg]? … There is a codependency on this person." (06:46)

2. The Spark: Early Love and Intense Connection (08:00–14:25)

• Both recount the instant, almost cinematic, connection when they first met:
  • Mark: “It was like this fucking burst of sun. And it was like, this is my home.” (09:36)
  • Katie on the first conversation: “We just were able to spill to each other and be really honest and vulnerable. And I was like, I’ve never had this conversation.” (11:03)
  • Their first kiss at a bar: “For those listening, she's covering the soul patch. Yes.” (13:15)
• Behind the romance: Their first year was "so fucking hard," full of fear, fighting, and emotional volatility. (13:48)

3. Early Relationship Struggles: Love, Jealousy, and Growth (14:25–18:25; 20:01–23:13)

• Early days characterized by emotional whiplash, long-distance struggles, and mutual insecurity.
• Mark admits he was "deeply smitten," but "terrified" to be with Katie as he was still wrestling with depression and identity. (15:12)
• Katie: “We were, like, addicted to each other ... it was awful ... We were insufferable. Let’s be.” (17:17)
• Anna cracks, “I have friends like that, and it’s pretty annoying.” (17:14)
• Mark shares a moment where airport security asked if they needed "a more private area" due to their public displays of affection—a wake-up call. (18:03–18:14)

4. Conflict as Catalyst for Intimacy (20:01–23:13)

• Example: Katie’s jealous reaction over Mark possibly meeting Björk at a concert. (20:08)
• Mark: “There was a forced level of honesty that was beyond what we were emotionally prepared to share and receive. ... We kept showing back up the next morning.” (21:50)
• “No one will ever be able to know me or understand me and love me the way that Katie does.” (22:37)

5. Codependency in Long-Term Marriage (23:18–26:14)

• Now married nearly 20 years (“almost 25 years together”), Mark and Katie reflect on how early relationship patterns—radical honesty and vulnerability—inform their relationship now.
• Katie: “It is really wonderful to have a partner that you can be completely open and vulnerable with … Those are things that feel like accomplishments on our side. But it is because of the patterns that we established very early on...” (23:35)
• Mark: “We step in shit all the time. ... New things are constantly coming up. ... We have two kids, and we work together, and we sleep next to each other.” (24:26–24:47)

6. The Comforts and Costs of Deep Mutual Need (26:23–28:47)

• Mark credits Katie with fundamentally saving him: “I really believe this. I don’t know that I would have made it if I had not met Katie.” (26:23)
• Honest about downsides: Extended time apart triggers "an ache" for him—his life feels off, even with freedom and no responsibilities. (27:39–28:27)
• Mark: “It’s not free. ... I want it. I choose it. But it’s not free.” (28:27–28:47)

7. The Dangers of Losing Yourself (31:08–34:44)

• Anna asks about individuation: “...there is a way in which you lose your sense of individuation. ... Is that still something you’re struggling with?” (33:31)
• Katie admits she’s always been seen as "the cute one" until Mark recognized her depth and intelligence: “No one believed in me like he believed in me, and still to this day believes in me. ... That is, like, the scary side of codependency for me.”
• Therapist’s voice (“if you have to stand alone, that’s okay too. And that last part is what I’m missing.”) (33:09)

8. Maintaining Individuality (34:06–35:29)

• Separateness is deliberate practice—solo activities.
  • Mark: enjoys backpacking and hiking alone, despite wanting Katie there at first. (34:06–34:49)
  • Katie: likes going to dinner and shows alone, reads at the bar, but still texts Mark to share the moment: “Well, yeah. Cause I look cute.” (35:28)
• Both admit: even solo time is deeply threaded with connection to the other.

9. Searching for a New Word: "Inglobulation" & Tree Metaphors (35:42–39:34)

• Mark jokes about inventing a term: “I’m gonna call it inglobulation because it is confusing where I begin and where Katie ends...” (35:55)
• Extended tree metaphor—from intertwined, mutually supportive growth to (sometimes) strangulation. (36:39–39:34)
• Mark: “To be so inherently enmeshed like this ... involves a couple of your limbs getting a little choked off.” (37:40)
• Katie’s take: “I am a way better version of myself than I could have ever predicted. ... I like the tree ... That’s. Yeah, it’s like bonsai.” (39:26)

10. Is It Worth It? Meaning, Centering, and Acceptance (40:22–44:13)

• Anna (single) wonders: “When you find the one, why, what do I have to look forward to?” (40:22)
• Mark: “When you have someone that you deeply love and deeply understands you and loves you, it's pretty much the only centering force that makes life truly meaningful in the quotidian daily living.” (40:33)
• “There are no really right or wrong decisions. There’s a decision and then you make it right. ... Everything beyond that initial spark ... has been a growing together, a concerted effort of, like, making that stuff work and making it the right decision.” (41:38–42:13)
• Katie: “To be seen in a way you didn’t know was possible and to unlock something in you because of the way this person sees you is what a gift.” (42:13)
• Mark concludes with a silly, intimate anecdote about “foot chasing” in bed as an everyday reminder of their bond: “That little fiefdom of our love that is everything to me, and I don't know how to get that anywhere else.” (43:46–44:13)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “We’re on this campaign to rebrand codependency. Like Kale. ... We are that for codependency.” —Katie Aselton (05:54)
• “No one will ever be able to know me or understand me and love me the way that Katie does.” —Mark Duplass (22:37)
• “For the greater good. ... I guess it's necessary strangulation.” —Katie Aselton and Mark Duplass on compromise (38:05–38:09)
• “When you have someone that you deeply love and deeply understands you and loves you, it’s pretty much the only centering force that makes life truly meaningful in the quotidian daily living.” —Mark Duplass (40:33)
• “To be seen in a way you didn’t know was possible ... is what a gift.” —Katie Aselton (42:13)
• “That little fiefdom of our love ... is everything to me, and I don’t know how to get that anywhere else.” —Mark Duplass (43:46)
• “I hate it.” / “You don't hate it because you would be very sad if that foot wasn't chasing you around the bed.” —Katie and Mark on nighttime routines (43:42–43:45)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 04:00–07:00 – Rebranding codependency
• 08:00–14:25 – Meeting, falling in love, first kiss
• 14:25–18:25 – Emotional volatility & the airport “make out” incident
• 20:01–23:13 – Conflict as catalyst for intimacy
• 23:18–26:14 – Communication in long-term marriage
• 26:23–28:47 – The costs and comforts of needing each other
• 31:08–34:44 – The dangers of losing yourself & therapist’s perspective
• 34:06–35:29 – Solo pursuits and individuation
• 35:42–39:34 – New metaphors for togetherness: “inglobulation” and the forest of trees
• 40:22–44:13 – Why it’s worth it; stories of intimacy and commitment

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Takeaways

• Codependency in popular thought is often stigmatized; Mark and Katie argue it can be positive, even essential, when grounded in mutual respect and honest communication.
• Intense dependence comes with real costs: the risk of losing your sense of self, and compromises that sting, but that are accepted for the greater good of the relationship.
• Their lasting happiness hinges not on constant romantic intensity, but on everyday intimacy, radical honesty, growth together—and the ability to “show back up the next morning,” even after emotional upheaval.
• Individuation is an active practice, but the urge to share with each other persists, even in solitude.
• They find no perfect word for their enmeshed state, but analogies—slime, tree roots, pizza cheese, bonsai—point to an ever-changing, mutually growthful bond.

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For Listeners:

If you’re curious about the deeper nuances of codependency, this episode offers both laughs and genuine wisdom on finding balance, belonging, and meaning within the powerful bonds we forge—and the inevitable complications they bring.

Transcript

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[Anna Martin]

hey everyone, it's Anna. Before we start the show, I've got a question about AI. We want to know if AI has changed a relationship in your life in some big way. And we want to know how maybe you and your partner kept having the same fight so you let AI listen in as a kind of couple's therapist. Maybe you discovered a friend's chat history and figured out how they were really feeling about you. Or maybe you needed to impress a girl who you couldn't believe was texting you back, so you used AI to draft up some witty responses and then you had to meet up for a real life date. We're interested in all types of relationships. Romantic, friendship, family, work. Tell us how you've encountered AI in your personal life, how it changed a specific relationship, and what you've learned or taken away. Record a voice memo and email it to [e-mail] and we might use your story on the show again. That's modernlovepodcastytimes.com thanks. We can't wait to hear from you. Now, here's today's episode. Love now and did you fall in love last fella?

[Mark Duplass]

Love but stronger than anything for the

[Katie Aselton]

love Love and I love you more than anything there's still love. Love.

[Anna Martin]

From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love. Today we're talking about codependency. Codependency has a very bad rep these days. It's like a dirty word. We're supposed to be independent, empowered individuals even when we're in love. Doesn't codependency mean losing yourself in a relationship? Doesn't that get unhealthy? Not if you ask today's guests, husband and wife filmmaking duo Mark Duplass and Katie Aselton. Mark and Katie are codependent and proud. They've been married for almost 20 years and they've basically been inseparable since the day they met. They make movies together, they live together, they raise their kids together. Their personal and professional lives are totally intertwined. And Katie and Mark love it. They wouldn't have it any other way. Their codependency is the inspiration for a new movie they wrote, of course, together called Magic Hour. Katie directs it and stars in it alongside Daveed Diggs. And today, Katie and Mark tell me why codependency, with all its complications, is actually a beautiful thing. And I gotta say, being in the room with those two, they are convincing. Katie Aselton and Mark Duplass, welcome to modern love.

[Mark Duplass]

Hi there.

[Katie Aselton]

Thank you so much.

[Anna Martin]

Okay, so you two have a new movie out. It's called Magic Hour. We are not going to spoil. But I do know that the plot, the idea, came to you, too, when you were talking about your own relationship. Right. Can you speak a little bit about that?

[Katie Aselton]

Yeah, sure. I mean, look, all of the movies that we've sort of collaborated on have had shades of our relationship in them. The puffy chair, the freebie togetherness. You know, like, all of these. All of the stories we tell. Blue Jay, like, they're all stories that have loving relationships at their core and their center. And our imagination is only so strong. We only have so many.

[Anna Martin]

The next movie's an alien movie.

[Katie Aselton]

Exactly. There are no aliens. There's no nothing. There's just us. It's just different forms of our relationship. And so, you know, when we sat down to sort of hatch this idea, it was like, all right, so let's mine our relationship like we do. And.

[Anna Martin]

And since recently, Right?

[Katie Aselton]

Yeah, a couple years ago. And, you know, we are now married for 100 years. We have got kids and dogs.

[Mark Duplass]

Well, don't get too excited.

[Katie Aselton]

But it's like, that's my point. It's like, it's boring. It's like, there's no drama. There is no conflict. And so we were like, well, I mean, we do get really sad when we're away from each other.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah.

[Katie Aselton]

So we started touching on this idea of codependence and sort of hypothesizing, like, what happens when you have built your life with this person and that person goes away.

[Anna Martin]

I mean, it's terrifying.

[Katie Aselton]

And I was like, well, worst case scenario, hon, if I die, I'm gonna haunt you forever. But not in, like, a spooky way. Not in, like a. Ooh, I'm gonna be, like, making fart jokes and, like, laughing together and talking about mundane stuff, like, I would hope our life just keeps going. You know, we started sort of talking about the space that someone that you've had such an intense, loving connection with leaves in someone's life however they May leave it. How sacred do you keep the space? And how healthy is it for you to hold the space, depending on how close you're going to hold it? And it's. For us, it's like, the more your ideas start snowballing as a conversation, then you're like, well, that's a movie, because we can keep going.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah, we're talking about codependency. You two have self identified as codependent. What do you mean when you say codependency?

[Mark Duplass]

That's such a good question. Thank you. I think we're throwing around this term as if we, like, actually know what it means. But it might just be. I think a therapist is gonna listen to this. And they're like, that's not codependency.

[Katie Aselton]

Yeah, but also it's like, I think we know it in the way that the general public knows codependency. And so there's a part of us that's like, on this campaign to rebrand codependency. Like Kale. I totally know, like, Kale had such a great publicist. Like, we are that for codependency. 100%. Brussels sprouts. Everything has had its moment. And now we're like, I think it's time for codependency. Because in our eyes, it's kind of the thing that we've all been working toward and struggling for is this idea that you're gonna find a partner that balances you. That is, you know, the fourth leg to your table where, like, could you stand with three legs? Sure. Are you more stable with a fourth? 100%. There is a co dependency on this person.

[Mark Duplass]

And isn't it what you wanted?

[Katie Aselton]

Isn't it the thing that we've been striving for our whole life? Isn't it what country music, like, has

[Mark Duplass]

trained us for, both modern and old country music? They both do it.

[Katie Aselton]

It's defining, isn't it?

[Mark Duplass]

What the romantic comedies were about the

[Katie Aselton]

other half, the whole idea of the other. And then all of a sudden, like, codependency is, like, bad. I think it's bad branding.

[Anna Martin]

It's interesting. Okay, so you are volunteering for that role.

[Katie Aselton]

Marketing for 100%.

[Anna Martin]

We'll circle back to that. I mean, you bring up a good point that we're not talking about codependency in, like, a clinical way. I'm really interested.

[Mark Duplass]

Or maybe you're just not sure.

[Anna Martin]

You guys go to therapy? Yeah.

[Katie Aselton]

Should we call our therapist and get her on the line?

[Anna Martin]

Well, have you had her?

[Mark Duplass]

We. We have the same therapist. I Don't know what that means.

[Anna Martin]

Is that. Is that recommended?

[Katie Aselton]

I don't think that's level one of codependent, but it's not.

[Anna Martin]

It's not a couple's therapist. I want to be clear on some of the.

[Katie Aselton]

We have gone to her together, but we also go to her alone, individually.

[Mark Duplass]

I love having the same therapist because they have the other side of the story. They know all the context. You can't possibly truly vilify someone that you want to talk about because they know them. Wow. It's so much better. But I think that, like, if I kind of trace it back to the beginning of us, like, we're in our late 40s now. Right. And so.

[Katie Aselton]

Speak for yourself.

[Mark Duplass]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

Fact check it later.

[Mark Duplass]

Yeah. You are mid to late. Mid. You're mid.

[Katie Aselton]

Say mid. I'm like, whatever.

[Mark Duplass]

Mid to late. And I think when we met, we were 23 and 25. And there were big romantics in both of us. You know, we are built that way. But I think we also, like, really succumbed to the music, films and literature that are of the romantic situation.

[Anna Martin]

Well, talk to me about that. What does that mean? What does that mean to you?

[Mark Duplass]

Like, we read Judy Blume's forever. When we were that right age and

[Katie Aselton]

stuck with us, we read and took in art to make us feel things. It wasn't like, oh, the story was. It was like, take me for that ride. Break my heart. I wanna feel the feelings. I wanna go deep. I wanna connect on a level that is like, I can't do with my peers because they don't get it.

[Anna Martin]

And this was what brought you two. Well, just tell me the story. How did you two.

[Mark Duplass]

This is part of what broug. I was living in New York. I was having a very hard time in my life. You know, it was a time where I was a struggling artist. I was doubting my ability to be successful. And I went to visit my friend who was living out in Los Angeles. Cause I was just like, it's New Year's. I don't have any friends back at home in New Orleans, where I'm staying with my parents. I'm just lost. And I just need to go, like, go get around someone who has some friends and not. Yeah. And just get in the. Get in the goddamn sun. And then the next thing I know, he picks me up at the airport. And the car door opens and there's Katie. And I'm gonna, like, start crying right now because it was like. It was like this fucking burst of sun. And it was like this is my home. And I saw it in her face, which was with love. A slightly, like, bloated with alcohol young 20s version of Katie. You know when you're saying bloated with

[Anna Martin]

alcohol, there are tears in your eyes.

[Mark Duplass]

It's not.

[Katie Aselton]

She's bloated without a little puppy. She was retaining water.

[Mark Duplass]

But I was just like, this is. I can't explain it to you that I just got hit by a bolt of fucking lightning.

[Anna Martin]

It was immediate for you.

[Katie Aselton]

Wow.

[Anna Martin]

I can feel it from you. And it's so vivid.

[Mark Duplass]

It's making you emotional pheromones. Just pure. Just like fucking animals, you know?

[Katie Aselton]

And my flip side was Katie's like,

[Mark Duplass]

this guy has a soul patch. What the fuck do I do?

[Katie Aselton]

And that was a wild thing to have to come to grips with. Right?

[Mark Duplass]

You gotta invest early, you know, he

[Anna Martin]

was a petty, puffy face, soul patch. You guys are balancing each other out. Wait, I do wanna, like, split screen it like it is a movie. Cause it sounds like that to me.

[Katie Aselton]

So I got in the car and he was sitting in the front seat. And he turned around and I was like, fuck, I'm in trouble. All of a sudden, we just locked, like. And we started talking over the course of that afternoon in a way that, like, I had never talked to anyone.

[Anna Martin]

What were you talking about? Can you recall?

[Katie Aselton]

We talked about people we dated. We talked about a lot of relationship, family stuff. And we just were able to, like, spill to each other and be really honest and vulnerable. And I was like, I've never had this conversation.

[Mark Duplass]

There was this energy of us kind of like leaning into something with each other that we couldn't quite define, you know? But it's all surrounded by, like, the energy of New Year's. So it's like, well, what's this gonna be? You know? And then we ended up at a bar later that. And I think the defining element of the beginning of our relationship for me was, you know, we had our first kiss that night, but it wasn't at midnight. It was at, like, 11:30.

[Anna Martin]

Well, I'm needing you guys to describe this kiss, if possible.

[Mark Duplass]

I'm sitting at the bar at Daddy's, right near the jukebox. Daddy's is a bar in Hollywood that's no longer there.

[Katie Aselton]

Oh, man.

[Mark Duplass]

It rests on good for everybody. Honestly, it's a name.

[Katie Aselton]

The best bar.

[Mark Duplass]

Oh, Jukebox is on. And there's David Bowie going. And Katie's coming out of the bathroom down a long hallway. And I catch eyes with her, and she catches eyes with me and it's busy. It's a busy bar. Time stops for, like, a little bit. And she takes some nice initiative and walks slowly up to me. And I'm like, okay.

[Katie Aselton]

She's. I didn't, like, walk slowly, you guys. I think in his mind, it was, like, in slow motion, but it felt

[Anna Martin]

like, I guess, are filmmakers, though.

[Katie Aselton]

I slowly walked to him, like, seductively, hearing music. This is toward him.

[Mark Duplass]

It was a fucking saunter, and you know it.

[Katie Aselton]

Listen, I got a sway.

[Mark Duplass]

Yeah. And she came up to me, and I was like, okay. She made this move so, like, I have to, like, do some sort of expression.

[Anna Martin]

Were you nervous?

[Mark Duplass]

Very nervous, yeah. But also, like, I know I can't just explain. I was like, I know. This is kind of what we're supposed to be doing right now. And she looks at me and she says, you're cute. And I was like, even with the sideburns, I said.

[Katie Aselton]

And I blocked with two fingers. I blocked the soul.

[Anna Martin]

And I actually do that.

[Katie Aselton]

I closed when I.

[Mark Duplass]

No, that would have been interesting. That would have been cool.

[Katie Aselton]

I just did one of these, and I was like, oh, there it is.

[Mark Duplass]

There it is.

[Anna Martin]

For those listening, she's covering the soul back. Yes.

[Mark Duplass]

And I put my hand just, like, ever so lightly on your hip. And we lean in. We have this pretty long. But not like. You know, not to get too graphic, but it wasn't like sloppy makeup, you know, it was like.

[Anna Martin]

It was, like, tender.

[Katie Aselton]

It was a movie kiss.

[Mark Duplass]

Yeah, yeah. But to dig just a little deeper into it, you know, from there, it wasn't like we're describing a lot of romanticism right now, you know? Then from there, it was.

[Katie Aselton]

The first year was so fucking hard.

[Mark Duplass]

A lot of fear and fighting and. I love you so much. This is so exciting. Oh, God, I love you.

[Anna Martin]

But tell me about this, because I think that what you are painting is basically the ideal. Everyone dreams of going to the city and having a beautiful person step out of a door and into your life and have this mutual recognition that, like, oh, it's on. You know, like, it's on.

[Katie Aselton]

The music swells and the montage starts.

[Anna Martin]

I mean, this is. It's a dream. It's a dream. But I'm liking to be brought back. Tell me about that story.

[Mark Duplass]

100%.

[Anna Martin]

What happened?

[Mark Duplass]

Well, we're dating. Long distance.

[Anna Martin]

Sure.

[Mark Duplass]

That's difficult.

[Katie Aselton]

That's difficult. We're young, we're ambitious. We have really big ideas of what we want and who we want to be. And where does this other person sit in that. And Exist in that. And do they believe in me in the same way? And how do you compromise all of these hopes and dreams? And we're babies.

[Mark Duplass]

And I would say pretty emotionally unevolved at this point in terms of, like, haven't gone to therapy. I haven't diagnosed the fact that I have depression and need to treat this. None of this has happened yet, you know, so we're trying to work this out with our arms and our legs tied behind our backs, and yet still

[Katie Aselton]

more communicative than, like, any relationship I had been in before.

[Mark Duplass]

But we're still operating at a C, essentially. I think a lot of the fighting early on was, I think, on me, because I'm so deeply smitten with Katie. I see my future there. I'm terrified that I'm not gonna be able to be a healthy, successful human being. So how can I possibly be in a relationship with probably the right person for me at a time when I'm just not there? And that created an energy that was so maddening. I mean, I'm projecting, but we've talked about this. So maddening. For Katie, that was just like, on Tuesday, I'm your everything. And then on Wednesday morning, you wake up and, like, you're terrified of this. And you tell me, oh, I need to go on tour with my band. Cause I need to figure this thing out, or I need to, you know, write the next great American independent film. And so that was confusing.

[Anna Martin]

Tell me how that was. I mean, what was going through your mind? It was so great. Yeah.

[Katie Aselton]

I come from, like, a really traditional family. I'm the youngest of four. My sisters got married when they were 21 and 24. And I was like, 23 with this guy who, like, maybe loved me more than anything in the whole world, but maybe also wasn't ready for this and didn't want it day to day. And so I was like, what am I doing? I'm wasting my youth.

[Mark Duplass]

Yes.

[Katie Aselton]

And I will also say, I think that if you look at the trajectory of our relationship, the codependency was there almost from the beginning in, like, a very. That was early times, if you ask anyone around us. A very unhealthy dynamic.

[Anna Martin]

I was gonna ask about what friends it was.

[Katie Aselton]

We were, like, addicted to each other in a way of, like, part of it, it was because we were long distance, but when we were together, it was like, we had to, like, physically be touching all the time and talking and kissing and like.

[Anna Martin]

Wait, really?

[Katie Aselton]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

I have friends like that, and it's pretty annoying.

[Katie Aselton]

It was but it was like we were.

[Mark Duplass]

We were insufferable. Let's be.

[Katie Aselton]

It was awful. But we didn't feel it or know it or see it at the time.

[Mark Duplass]

Did you want to tell her about the airport?

[Anna Martin]

Oh, my God, I would love to know about the airport.

[Katie Aselton]

We were catching a flight somewhere together and we weren't separating. It's not like we were saying goodbye. We were like, just had some downtime and we're full blown making out in one of the seats.

[Mark Duplass]

I didn't even register that we were making out. I thought we were just like hanging out.

[Katie Aselton]

We were like at a gate.

[Anna Martin]

Like, I want to make it super clear. You were on the same flight we were going.

[Katie Aselton]

We were traveling together.

[Mark Duplass]

We're at the gate waiting to get on the flight.

[Anna Martin]

Totally. Where your seats are essentially next to each other.

[Katie Aselton]

Next to each other.

[Mark Duplass]

This is not in fear of separation.

[Katie Aselton]

Totally. No. So I just wanted to be clear about that. I just could not. Like, I wanted to inhale him at all times.

[Anna Martin]

Aw.

[Katie Aselton]

And so I did both of those things. Yeah, it's gross. But someone walked. A security guy walked up to us and he goes, would you kids like to find a more private area?

[Mark Duplass]

That was a. That was a real moment for us.

[Anna Martin]

And what did you say?

[Katie Aselton]

Oh my God.

[Anna Martin]

And then you guys go to a

[Katie Aselton]

bathroom and just kiss and head styles.

[Mark Duplass]

That was the first moment we realized that this could be a problem.

[Anna Martin]

Stay with us.

[Mark Duplass]

Foreign.

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[Anna Martin]

Is there a Specific story that sticks out to you about a conflict that you had probably when you were living apart.

[Katie Aselton]

Hmm. One time at a concert, he was at an indie rock show. And I was back in la, he was at a show here in Brooklyn, and he called me, and he was so excited because Bjork was there and two people in front of him in line, and I. I got pissed. I was so jealous. Like, in a rage. In a rage. I was like, what are you do. Like, I was like, what are you gonna talk. Are you gonna talk to her? Oh, you're gonna talk to. Oh, you should go. You know what? You should totally go do it. Go talk to her.

[Anna Martin]

Don't date her.

[Katie Aselton]

You should. And he was like, why? Are you crazy? Cause in my mind, he was everything. And I was like, obviously, she's gonna fall in love with him. If she meets him, of course. Like, he's the easiest person to. And if.

[Mark Duplass]

Look at those sideboards.

[Anna Martin]

That is so sweet, because I thought. It's like. It wasn't even that you were jealous of her. It was more so, like, I love you so much. You're so magnetic. If she even gets in your presence,

[Katie Aselton]

if she has the opportunity to meet you, she's gonna fall in love with you. And she's Bjork. Like, you're gonna fall in love with her too. I can't sing like that. My hair isn't cool. Like, I.

[Anna Martin]

Her's great.

[Katie Aselton]

Knew I wasn't her. And I was like, oh, this is terrible. If you meet her. But you know what? You should just. You know what? Fine, Fine. I'm not mad. I'm not mad. Go meet her. Good. I hope you guys are having so much fun.

[Anna Martin]

Tell me how you go from this kind of whiplash y volatile connection. I mean, now we. We started this conversation off by saying, you're incredibly codependent, which we will circle back to. How did you decide? Was there a breaking point? Was there like a. I think that

[Mark Duplass]

this is my, like, maybe a breaking down. This is my dime store analysis of it. Is that in this sort of, like, swirling whirling soup of, like, we love each other so much, we can't stop fighting. Holy shit. What is this? There was a forced level of honesty that was beyond what we were emotionally prepared to share and receive. And so we grew up together creating a new language that we didn't know how to use. We didn't see our parents use. And then we would get in fights, but then we kept showing back up the next morning. And so we were revealing these Awful things and awful sides about each other. And then we kept saying, I love you the next day, but I'm still here. And we started to build this bedrock of, I think, subconsciously, oh, my God, this person is still here. And they know all of this really ugly, scary shit about me. And that, to me, is the seeds of what I think led to this beautiful, or terrible, whatever you want to call it, codependency that we have now, which is this very firm belief that, like, no one will ever be able to know me or understand me and love me the way that Katie does. That's me sort of jumping far ahead into these seats now for a moment. But it was a very long road,

[Anna Martin]

this ability to be so open that was really present from the beginning of your relationship. Now, how long have you been married?

[Katie Aselton]

It'll be 20 years in August.

[Anna Martin]

Oh, my gosh.

[Mark Duplass]

Congratulations.

[Katie Aselton]

Yeah.

[Mark Duplass]

We've been together for almost 25.

[Anna Martin]

Wow.

[Mark Duplass]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

How does that show up now? What are the ways that those patterns you established in the beginning are still a part of your everyday? If they are, maybe they look a little different.

[Mark Duplass]

Yeah, I mean, it's a really good question.

[Katie Aselton]

I mean, I don't think the patterns look different. The patterns look like. Well, I just mean, as far as the communication goes, like, it is really wonderful to have a partner that you can be completely open and vulnerable and be like, hey, this is really hard for me to say out loud, but, like, I'm having a really hard time with X, Y, and Z. And I feel like it's me, but I worry that you think it's you. And so let's talk about that. Those are things that feel like accomplishments on our side. But it is because of the patterns that we establish very early on of, like, I know I'm not gonna scare you away, and I know I can say something without your ego, or if it does come in, I know you will work on it and come back to it.

[Mark Duplass]

I think that's a good point, because I think, like, I don't want us to come across sounding like we don't still, like, fight, basically.

[Katie Aselton]

And we step in shit all the time.

[Mark Duplass]

We do, because new things are constantly coming up. And particularly we have, you know, two kids, 18 and 14, two daughters.

[Anna Martin]

And you work together.

[Mark Duplass]

And we work together, and we sleep

[Katie Aselton]

next to each other rescuing dogs.

[Mark Duplass]

And Katie keeps rescuing these fucking dogs.

[Anna Martin]

She developed this habit of rescuing dogs.

[Katie Aselton]

Real issue in our marriage that is maybe our biggest confidence right now.

[Anna Martin]

You're not the first couple I've talked

[Katie Aselton]

to were pets Dogs.

[Mark Duplass]

Yeah. We spend a lot of time together.

[Anna Martin]

I was gonna say, are you constantly in touch? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mark Duplass]

We spend a lot of time together. We're very. Sounds gross to say, but we're very, like, intimate. There's, like, a lot of. There's a lot of, like, hugs.

[Katie Aselton]

We're just fucking off.

[Anna Martin]

When I see a couple that's at the airport gate absolutely locked down like that.

[Katie Aselton]

We burn that in our 20 minutes.

[Mark Duplass]

The truth is, we're not.

[Katie Aselton]

I'm so tired.

[Anna Martin]

That's so funny.

[Mark Duplass]

We're not doing that at all. Cause our bedroom is right off of the kitchen, and the kids are just everywhere, walking in all the time.

[Anna Martin]

But the intimacy is like, how does it show up then if it's not?

[Katie Aselton]

We are still very affectionate and very loving, and we do love to share meals together in the middle of the day. Or, like.

[Mark Duplass]

And it's like, dumb shit. We play music in the kitchen and we dance and we kiss a lot and we hold hands a lot when we walk. And do your kids comment on that? Yes, they do. They're sort of comfortable with it because they have, like, grown up with it. But then when they got out into the world and saw that other parents aren't like that, they were like, oh, yep, yep. This is weird.

[Katie Aselton]

For a long time, I think they thought everyone else was weird. And now I think they think we're weird. So that's where we're at.

[Anna Martin]

Can I know? Like, what do you feel like you need the other person to do? Like, what's something that you feel like you couldn't do on your own?

[Mark Duplass]

That's really interesting. I mean, the first thing that comes to my mind when you say that is that I really believe this. I don't know that I would have made it if I had not met Katie. I think that the nature of what I was dealing with and the depths of my depression and what she brought to me in terms of the ability to bring out this goofiness that I had inside of me.

[Anna Martin]

You guys are so goofy. I can't believe there was ever a time where you were not that goofy.

[Mark Duplass]

He was gone. It was gone.

[Katie Aselton]

He was so cool when I met him. You know, he was wearing, like. He was like, Greenpoint in 03.

[Anna Martin]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? I was in third grade, but I can imagine.

[Katie Aselton]

But you remember those Ding Dongs walking around with their skinny dickies Ding Dongs.

[Anna Martin]

In fact, I am worried that this whole conversation's gonna give women who are dating sort of deadbeat boyfriends in bands, a false hope.

[Katie Aselton]

So I'll just say they're not all marked.

[Mark Duplass]

I made it up.

[Katie Aselton]

Ladies. Not all men. You know what I'm saying? Not all men.

[Mark Duplass]

You joke about being cool, but I was depressed. I mean, that's just really what we're dealing with. So that, to me, that is like, the biggest intense need I have for Katie. And this feeling that I have, to put a finer point on, this codependency, which is like, here's some negative things about it.

[Anna Martin]

Okay, yeah, good. That was my next thing.

[Mark Duplass]

I go to New York for a few days, and I have rescue dogs, and I have kids, and I have a company, and I have a lot of people that rely on me. And I should just be in full glee and elation to be free and do whatever I want, make whatever decision I want for food at my whim. And after 36 hours of that, an ache starts to form. And it's really hard to be away from Katie. And I can't exactly tell you why, but I think that these 25 years, all this stuff we have built, how I relate to her, and it just. It doesn't work the way I would like it to be able to. And so I'm not.

[Anna Martin]

You sit there.

[Mark Duplass]

You.

[Anna Martin]

You. It doesn't work. Life doesn't work.

[Mark Duplass]

Life doesn't work. So I'm not an idiot. I know that I can't have the beautiful codependent thing that I have with Katie and just be able to easily eject out of that and function perfectly on the other side. I want it. I choose it. But it's not free.

[Anna Martin]

We'll be right back.

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[Katie Aselton]

it means sitting front row at a comedy show. Hey, everyone.

[Anna Martin]

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[Katie Aselton]

What is this, your first date?

[Mark Duplass]

Oh, no.

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[Mark Duplass]

We're married.

[Katie Aselton]

Me to a human, him to a bird.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah, the bird looks out of your league.

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[Katie Aselton]

Liberty, Liberty. Liberty. Liberty.

[Anna Martin]

Can I turn it to you and say, how do you feel? Like you need Mark. And is there. Because that's what I want to transition to, too, is like we're painting a. It's not all rosy, but a really beautiful picture. But there are ways in which you can lose yourself.

[Katie Aselton]

Sure. I think, honestly, I'm like the complete opposite of him, where he. He saw in me a depth and intelligence that no one else really saw. I'm the youngest of four. I was a cheerleader. I was Miss Mainteen. I was Miss Mainteen. That feels like that's its own guess.

[Mark Duplass]

Hold on. Runner up, Miss Teen usa, Motherfucker.

[Anna Martin]

Oh, my God.

[Mark Duplass]

So I was, like, with no training and no nothing. She was this girl from a town of. Of 300 people, a lobster town in Maine. And they're like, we need somebody. And they threw her in. Didn't know what the fuck she was doing.

[Anna Martin]

What was your talent?

[Katie Aselton]

Thank God USA doesn't do a talent. That's Miss America.

[Anna Martin]

Oh, sorry. Okay.

[Katie Aselton]

My talent. I won the swimsuit competition. That was my talent. And I was cute. And everyone's like, oh, she's so cute. And that was kind of my identity until I met Mark. And he looked at me and he was like, no, you're so much more. You're so smart. You're really talented, and you have depth, and, you know, you're interesting. And it changed me. And no one saw me like that. And I didn't see myself like that. And, you know, he was the one who first looked at me and was like, you know, I said, after we had our first kid, I was like, I miss being in movies. Like, will you please, like, write something for me? And he was like, write something for yourself. Do it. You have the stories. I did write a movie about a woman who cheats on her husband if you're gonna.

[Mark Duplass]

Yeah, she didn't.

[Podcast Sponsor]

If you're gonna make.

[Anna Martin]

Well, I didn't sort of mean that.

[Katie Aselton]

If you're gonna make me do the work, I'm gonna do the work, you know? But it was that. That really. You know, I've never. No one believed in me like he believed in me, and still to this day believes in me. Like, no one believes in me more than Mark does. And I don't believe in myself as much as Mark does. That is, like, the scary side of codependency for me, where I'm like, I guess I should probably get to that point. Yeah.

[Mark Duplass]

Yeah. I think a therapist would be like. You walk into a general therapist room, they'd be like, love. This is my therapist's voice, by the way. You know, love is such this wonderful thing where you can join forces with someone and know that you can stand on the precipice of life together and enjoy it. But also, if you have to stand alone, that's okay, too. And that last part is what I'm missing.

[Anna Martin]

This is what I was gonna say is like, I'm really grateful for you two for being so open. It's very instructive. I feel like I'm learning a lot. And we're also talking about the sing, and you're hinting at it where it's like, to become so enmeshed with another person you can lose. It's like you're both seeing these things in each other that no one else sees, which is electric and beautiful and connective. But then there is a way in which you lose your sense of individuation. I mean, you cease to sort of become an individual. And I guess, what are the ways that you try to. Or you do maintain your sense of self as individuals? Or is that still something you're struggling with?

[Mark Duplass]

I have a pretty good little system, I think, you know, which is that I love hiking and I love backpacking, and I mostly do that alone. I'm gonna go out and join the herd on the PCT for a couple of days.

[Katie Aselton]

That being said, he's invited me a thousand that I don't want to go.

[Mark Duplass]

By the way.

[Anna Martin]

He's gonna be thirsty.

[Mark Duplass]

That is an excellent. That is an excellent point.

[Katie Aselton]

I definitely wanted it to be something we did together. That is completely sweet.

[Anna Martin]

You're like, I'm striking out on my own manifest destiny.

[Mark Duplass]

You're like, I don't need anybody out here.

[Katie Aselton]

Backpack and everything.

[Mark Duplass]

Katie, you wanna come? No. Okay, I'll go with that.

[Anna Martin]

That is so cute and completely Undermining

[Mark Duplass]

your point, but proving it.

[Anna Martin]

You tried.

[Mark Duplass]

Yeah, but proving it at the same time.

[Katie Aselton]

But he also has realized he can do it by himself.

[Mark Duplass]

Yeah.

[Katie Aselton]

And that is growth.

[Anna Martin]

What's the specific thing that you do?

[Katie Aselton]

Okay, so what I realized I love is going to dinner and a show by myself. I love sitting at a bar. I love ordering a cocktail.

[Mark Duplass]

Oh, you bring that book, too?

[Katie Aselton]

I bring a book.

[Anna Martin]

You bring that book.

[Katie Aselton]

And I, like, all of a sudden, I'm like Carrie Bradshaw. Just eating by yourself. And it is. And I love going to a show by myself.

[Mark Duplass]

Can I also just ever so slightly undermine, which is that you're, like, there, but you're quiet.

[Anna Martin]

You're like, different table.

[Mark Duplass]

Which is, you know, for better or for worse. You always text me or call me during these moments to share it with me.

[Katie Aselton]

Well, yeah. Cause I look cute.

[Mark Duplass]

Yeah.

[Katie Aselton]

I don't want to waste.

[Anna Martin]

That is so. Oh, God, I love that there still is this thread of. And I don't know, maybe we're using the word codependency to your point. Maybe it's not.

[Katie Aselton]

Maybe we don't understand.

[Anna Martin]

Is there maybe. Wait, finish your sentence.

[Katie Aselton]

Maybe we don't understand. Like, maybe. I don't know.

[Mark Duplass]

Are we gonna make up a word right now for what we are?

[Katie Aselton]

That was my question in the rebranding.

[Anna Martin]

Is there a new word?

[Mark Duplass]

I'm gonna call it in globulation because it is confusing where I begin and where Katie ends to a certain point. But the good news is, within globulation, it's just a big thing of goose.

[Katie Aselton]

So you can. It sounds so gross.

[Mark Duplass]

Well, hold on a second. Let me finish. It's gonna be great. Then you pull it apart like slime, you know, and you're like, oh, great. So now there's two, and we're individual. But the problem is there's a bunch of pink and the blue, and there's a bunch of blue in the pink, and you can't really separate them. It's mostly me over there, but I got a bunch of the other stuff.

[Katie Aselton]

Or like, mozzarella and a pizza in globulation.

[Anna Martin]

How are you feeling about that word?

[Katie Aselton]

I think it's gross.

[Anna Martin]

Okay, I would agree with you. If we're talking about branding, it's a little bit.

[Katie Aselton]

I don't know what the word is, but I've always said this thing, and it's just the way I see couples, and I think couples are like trees that grow in a forest. Right. And sometimes trees go completely parallel, and they're super healthy. And it's amazing. Sometimes trees grow together and they wind around each other and they help bring each other to the sun. Or one strangles the other one. Right. And then sometimes two trees grow in two separate directions and fall over. Like, that is how I look at it.

[Mark Duplass]

Who are we?

[Katie Aselton]

We think I'm growing to the sun. I think we've wound around each other and we bring each other to the.

[Mark Duplass]

Is there any strangulation?

[Katie Aselton]

No, I don't feel it. Do you? I think I probably strangled you in the beginning.

[Mark Duplass]

Yeah, you strangled me with, like, what

[Katie Aselton]

are we gonna do?

[Mark Duplass]

No, no. I think that I personally feel like there is some strangulation inherent in being that intimate and that close. We've also chosen it. I mean, it sounds. We're just kind of like, you know, using words at this point, but I

[Katie Aselton]

think that that's what speaking is.

[Mark Duplass]

Yeah, let me rephrase. Let me rephrase. I think we're getting into semantics a little bit with this. But to me, to be so inherently enmeshed like this, to compromise so much, to make this relationship work for not only you and me, for the K and everything like that, that involves a couple. A couple of your limbs getting a little choked off.

[Katie Aselton]

Sure. But for the greater good. So I guess it feels like you're still growing to the sun.

[Mark Duplass]

I guess it's necessary strangulation. But I think we would be dishonest to say that. Like, there aren't moments where at least I can say this and maybe you disagree, where, you know, every now and then I question, like, wow, in order to be in this family, in this marriage, everything that I do, this is quite a bit of compromise. Am I moving too far from some core 10 of myself? Should I be careful to protect those things?

[Katie Aselton]

You know, questioning that this is where maybe where we're different. Because I look at it and I'm like, I am a way better version of myself than I could have ever predicted. Like, I had, I think, much lower expectations of who I was gonna become. But I think, like, Mark, I think might have had much higher expectations is what it sounds like. But I had a way. I, like, sort of had an idea of who I was and who I was told and I was. And I think I had a different idea of what it was all gonna look like, what marriage was gonna look like in family and parenting and career. And I sort of surpassed those things in a way that surprised me and excites me, and I'm very proud of. But I very rarely ever say, oh, gosh, Have I lost my hand?

[Mark Duplass]

You're like, those branches have died, but you're not worried about it is what you're saying.

[Katie Aselton]

No, I mean, because I like the tree. That's. Yeah, it's like bonsai.

[Mark Duplass]

I don't know if that makes sense, but yeah, I like it.

[Katie Aselton]

You gotta make little beautiful trees.

[Anna Martin]

It is interesting because we are. We're far in the metaphor now. But the thing I wanna zoom out and say is I am seeing this communication and practice where actually the thing you said is, it's pretty heavy. It's like for the good of the family, there's lots of compromises and sacrifices both of you have had to make. I said at some point that it's very instructive to me hearing you two speak. I am currently dating. I'm looking. A lot of my brain is consumed with just the question of how am I going to find this person. And when I hear you guys talk, it's like, you so found the person and then when you do that, all of these other questions and fears.

[Katie Aselton]

It's only the beginning of the questions. I know.

[Anna Martin]

I guess one of my final questions to you is like, so why is it worth it if all of these other fears come up right? When you find the one why, what do I have to look forward to?

[Mark Duplass]

Well, it's 100% worth it for me. The reason it's worth it is because I constantly feel like my brain is ping ponging around space looking for meaning about why I'm here. And when you have someone that you deeply love and deeply understands you and loves you, it's pretty much the only centering force that makes life truly meaningful in the quotidian daily living. And here's what I would say as you're on the hunt, right? I can only speak from my own experience. And the experience I have is that Katie opened the back door of that car and there was something about the way she was, the way she smelled, the way she looked. It was just. That was it right there. And then everything else was a decision and work, everything else from there. And so, you know, I love this old adage of like, there are no really right or wrong decisions. There's a decision and then you make it right. And while that isn't a perfect one to one analogy for relationships, everything after that big bang that happened with us, I shouldn't have said bang. That really sounds like something else, by the way.

[Katie Aselton]

Did not happen.

[Mark Duplass]

Did not happen right away.

[Anna Martin]

It happened the next night.

[Mark Duplass]

She's like 48 hours. You go, wait make him work for it. Everything beyond that initial spark, I should say really has been a growing together, a concerted effort of, like, making that stuff work and making it the right decision.

[Katie Aselton]

And I will say it is 100% worth it, because like I was saying earlier, to be seen in a way you didn't know was possible and to unlock something in you because of the way this person sees you is what a gift to see me better than I saw myself. And it's so centering having someone who just loves you like you can all. It is just your touchstone. You just come back to it and you know everything's gonna be okay. It's your fence in the storm that, you know, as cows are flying by you, you have the post that, like, holds you.

[Mark Duplass]

Yeah.

[Katie Aselton]

You know. Yeah, I know.

[Mark Duplass]

The most definitive way I could say this is gonna sound kind of stupid, but we were on the subway last night coming home from a magic hour screening, and it was a little bit delayed and we were a little tired, and, you know, just that moment where you just kind of want to. To get in bed and we're huge.

[Katie Aselton]

Dude farted. And it was.

[Mark Duplass]

It was bad.

[Anna Martin]

Welcome to New York.

[Mark Duplass]

It was bad. It was. It. It was bad.

[Anna Martin]

It was bad.

[Mark Duplass]

Wow. Yeah, that sounds really bad. And. But for some reason, and we were kind of, like, crowded on the subway together, so we were, like, experiencing that, like, nice little intimacy we have of, like, having our arms around each other. And I was talking about how excited I was to get back into bed because when. When we go to sleep, I like to put the top of my foot underneath the bottom of Katie's foot. And it's very comforting to me. And she doesn't like it. And I end up, like, chasing her foot all around the bed.

[Katie Aselton]

I hate it.

[Mark Duplass]

I know she hates it, but you don't.

[Katie Aselton]

You see it.

[Anna Martin]

The foot does.

[Mark Duplass]

You don't hate it because you would be very sad if that foot wasn't chasing you around the bed. And we just in the middle of that huge man fart, delayed on the subway, we're just fucking cracking up in our own little shared story that only 25 years of being together can. That little fiefdom of our love that is everything to me, and I don't know how to get that anywhere else.

[Anna Martin]

Wow. I think we have to end it there. Katie, Mark, thank you so much for this conversation. It was truly a blast. The modern Love team is Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Lynn Levy, Reeva Goldberg and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Sarah Curtis. It was edited by Lynn Levy. Our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez. Original music in this episode by Rowan Nimisto, Marion Lozano and Dan Powell. Dan also composed our theme music. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones and Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. Special thanks to Stella Bugbee. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we've got those instructions in our show notes. I made a Martin. Thanks for listening.

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[Katie Aselton]

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