Bridget Everett Says A Best Friend Can Be Your Greatest Love (Encore)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Modern Love – "Bridget Everett Says A Best Friend Can Be Your Greatest Love (Encore)"

Date: August 20, 2025
Host: Anna Martin (The New York Times)
Guest: Bridget Everett

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Episode Overview

This episode of "Modern Love" features a heartfelt conversation between host Anna Martin and actress, comedian, and writer Bridget Everett, centering around the power and depth of platonic friendship. The episode dovetails reflections on Everett’s HBO show Somebody Somewhere—particularly the central friendship between Sam and Joel—with Everett’s personal experiences and a reading of Victor Lodato’s Modern Love essay, "When Your Greatest Romance Is a Friendship". Themes include challenging common narratives about romance, the transformative nature of close friendships, and the importance of staying open to new connections at any stage of life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Somebody Somewhere and Its Heart

• The Challenge of Genre
  • Anna struggles with categorizing the show: “I wanna call it a romantic comedy, but it's also sort of like an ensemble slice of life. At times it's a musical.”
  • Bridget responds candidly: “I have a terrible time describing it too… people say dramedy, but kind of just a slice of life. Some tender moments, some, you know, and maybe a fart.” (03:45)
• Realism and Humor
  • Bridget calls out the blend of humor and rawness, referencing the show’s infamous "diarrhea scene": “Because that's real life... maybe not for you, but for people I know.” (04:05)
• Inspired by Bridget’s Own Life
  • The character Sam, played by Everett, shares both a love of singing and struggles with self-worth:
    • “I kind of plug into life when I'm singing... There's a way that I can connect to my emotions when I'm doing that that I can't sometimes do otherwise. And I also struggle with self worth. Like she does.” (05:06)
• Personal Growth Mirrored in Art
  • On learning from her character: “We sort of see her trying to push through some of that. And I've learned a lot from her. Like, sometimes we write the scenes and I'm like, man, I wish I could be like Sam.” (05:48)
• "No New People" and Letting Others In
  • Bridget resonates with Sam’s early “no new people” (NNP) mantra but says she is trying to open up more, inspired by her own character:
    • “Especially in season three, [Sam] is allowing more people into her life and into her heart. And I think that I have honestly been trying to work on that myself.” (06:33)
  • On the vulnerability of new connections: “If you're somebody that does struggle with self worth, every time you meet somebody, you're like, they're gonna see the cracks.” (06:47)

2. The Radical Primary Friendship

• The Sam–Joel Bond:
  • Bridget describes the Sam & Joel dynamic as radically central:
    • “Her friends are her people. And it's not like she's looking for a romantic love. She's looking for her person. And that's kind of what she's…finding in Joel.” (10:21)
• Platonic Love as ‘Your Person’:
  • Anna: “It's a really…kind of radical reframe, the idea that your person can be a friend.” (10:30)
  • Bridget: “It was really important that this show be about the friendship and not about, like, girl meets boy in the way that you meet a guy and all of a sudden he thinks you're beautiful. This is a different kind of love.” (10:54)

3. Memorable Moments from Somebody Somewhere

• The Love Song at the Party
  • Bridget recounts a poignant scene where Sam helps Joel’s boyfriend, Brad, write and perform a love song for Joel, even though it’s hard for Sam to share Joel’s attention:
    • “What I love about it is, like, that Sam is right there with him. And she's like, I'm gonna help you get through this. Because she knows what it's gonna mean to Joel.” (12:48)
• Bridget Sings on Air
  • Bridget performs a few lines from the love song (13:14):
    • “I wake in the morning and I see your face
      I'm the luckiest guy in the entire human race
      A cup of coffee or a trip to the store
      I'll take forever and then I'll take some more...”
  • Anna’s reaction: “Don't do this to me right now. I don't know. It is so…God. And you wrote these lyrics? It is so simple, and it's perfect.” (13:53–13:59)
  • Bridget: “It's also Sam's love for Joel in… the way that she's looking at him.” (14:10)

4. Modern Love Essay Reading: "When Your Greatest Romance Is a Friendship" (Victor Lodato)

• Essay Summary
  • Bridget reads the story of Victor, a younger man, and Austin, his octogenarian best friend, whose deep, platonic bond challenges conventional ideas of ‘romance’. Their relationship is characterized by daily companionship, mutual emotional support, and a profound intimacy—which persists even as Austin nears the end of her life due to illness. (16:26–26:04)
• Key Quote from the Essay:
  • “Some of the greatest romances of my life have been friendships. And these friendships have been, in many ways, more mysterious than erotic love. More subtle, less selfish. More attuned to kindness.” (quoted during reading, approx. 25:00)

5. Bridget Reflects on Friendship vs. Romance

• Why She Chose the Essay

  • “When you read about great loves, it always seems to be about a romantic relationship. And I just love that these are two people that have found each other and they’re the one for each other. I want that.” (26:13)

• Staying Open after Loss

  • “You can always find somebody. They may not look like what you think you're gonna want or what you’re gonna need. It reminds me to stay open.” (26:55)

• The Hard Parts: Change and Jealousy

  • On missing an intense friendship that changed after her friend got into a serious relationship:
    • “I was really reactionary and immature. But he…they kind of disappeared together. And that's also okay...I’ve always kind of been like, she'll be there. And after a while, it affects you.” (32:13–33:11)
  • Anna, reflecting: “It's accepting that you might not always be as primary to someone as they are to you.” (34:01)
  • Bridget: “I also don't think that just because somebody's in a romantic relationship, that means that you can't be a focal…a focal point in their life…But sometimes you need to know that you matter.” (33:26–33:56)

• Letting Love—and Friendship—In

  • “It’s also up to me to hear it, you know... I have to be able to take it in, and it’s, you know, it’s challenging sometimes.” (35:58)
  • Anna: “It’s just looking someone in the eyes and saying, you matter. You matter to me. You will always matter to me…that feels to me like what friendship is.” (34:59)

6. Cultivating Life-Long, Central Friendships as Adults

• On Making Time and Space

  • “How can we cultivate close friendships in our adulthood when there's so much else competing for our time…?” (37:14)
  • Bridget: “I don't know…my dream is to have a…be central in a friend’s life again…When my friends are making me a priority, it matters.” (37:23–37:57)
  • “It is like all those things you say—like, there's just life sweeps people up, and sometimes the friendships, you know, they become a backseat. And it's not that way for Sam and Joel. And that's what I love. I feel like it’s fantasy.” (37:57)

• On the Language of Friendship as Romance

  • Anna: “What do you think about the idea of using romance to describe a friendship? That word. Does it work? Do we need better words?” (39:05)
  • Bridget: “No, I love it. I say that all the time. I'm like, you know, with Sam and Joel, they fall in love with each other, and it is a romance…You can get swept off your feet by a friend…you are in love with them in some degree.” (39:27–39:48)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Bridget Everett on Friendship:
  • "I think what's so great about this relationship is they just sort of slip into kind of a life together, and... I just. I want that." (26:13)
• On Letting Someone In:
  • "If you're somebody that does struggle with self worth, every time you meet somebody, you're like, they're gonna see the cracks." (06:47)
• On Being Seen:
  • "Sometimes you need to know that you matter." (33:56)
• On Platonic Romance:
  • “You can get swept off your feet by a friend. And you don't have…just because there may not be the sex involved, you are in love with them in some degree.” (39:48)
• Song Lyric Sung by Bridget:
  • “I wake in the morning and I see your face / I’m the luckiest guy in the entire human race…” (13:14)
• On Why Friendship Matters:
  • "It's just looking someone in the eyes and saying, you matter. You matter to me. You will always matter to me." (34:59)

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Notable Timestamps

• 03:45 – Bridget describes the challenge of labeling Somebody Somewhere’s genre – “slice of life…some tender moments, some, you know, and maybe a fart.”
• 05:06 – On Sam’s self-doubt and learning from her character.
• 06:33 – Bridget on consciously opening up to new people, inspired by her character.
• 10:21 – Anna and Bridget discuss the concept of having a friend be “your person.”
• 13:14 – Bridget sings the love song from the show.
• 16:26–26:04 – Bridget reads Victor Lodato's essay, "When Your Greatest Romance Is a Friendship".
• 26:13 – Bridget reflects on why the essay resonates with her.
• 33:56 – Bridget on needing to know you matter in friendship.
• 39:48 – Bridget expands on seeing platonic friendship as a genuine romance.

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Conclusion

This episode delves deep into the idea that friendships can be primary, transformative, and worthy of the same reverence culturally reserved for romance. Bridget Everett’s reflections—from her show’s platonic love, personal experience, and her emotional reading of Victor Lodato’s essay—invite listeners to rethink what ‘romance’ can mean and to cherish the friends who are, in every sense, our greatest loves. The conversation strikes a warm, vulnerable tone—affirming that love, in all its forms, deserves celebration.

Transcript

[A]

Our state has changed a lot in the last 140 years. We know because Multicare has been here guided by a single making our communities healthier. That comes from making courageous decisions, partnering with local communities to grow programs and services, and expanding healthcare access to those who need it most. Together, we're building a healthier future. Learn [e-mail] hey everyone, it's Anna. Last fall, Bridgette Everett was in our studio to talk about her starring role in Somebody Somewhere. In case you missed it, Somebody Somewhere is an HBO series set in Everett's real life hometown of Manhattan, Kansas. And at the center of the show there is this loving, warm, hilarious, I think deeply aspirational, platonic friendship. Somebody Somewhere was wrapping up its third and final season when Everett and I talked, but now she's nominated for an Emmy for her work writing the show alongside co writers Hannah Boss and Paul Thureen. Plus, the guy who plays her best friend on the show, Jeff Hiller, is nominated for Outstanding Supporting Actor. Now that Everett's back in the spotlight for awards season, I thought it'd be fun to share this conversation with you one more time. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Love now and did you fall in.

[B]

Love last love was stronger than anything.

[A]

For the love love and I love.

[B]

You more than anything there's still love love.

[A]

From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love in the HBO series Somebody Somewhere, Bridget Everett plays a 40something woman named has always loved to sing, but over time she's lost her self confidence and given up on music. After Sam becomes best friends with a sweet, supportive man named Joel, played by Jeff Hiller, she starts to build herself back up. He even gets her to sing again.

[B]

One of my favorite singers in the entire world is here with us tonight. Sampire. Come on up here. No. In this proud land we grew up strong. We were wanted all along.

[A]

The two of them become so close they even call each other from the toilet after eating a questionable hors d' oeuvre called St. Louis Sushi.

[B]

If you ever tell anybody what just happened to my asshole, I will come over. Oh no, Joel. This is a new level of intimacy.

[A]

To watch Somebody Somewhere is to fall in love with these two friends and to hope that nothing gets in the way of what they share together. So I wanted to talk to Bridget about how central a best friendship can be if we're willing to make the space for it in our lives. And Bridget reads an essay about two friends with a bond so close, maybe we need A new word to define it. Bridget Everett, welcome to Modern Love.

[B]

Hi.

[A]

I'm so happy you're in the studio with us. So the show you star on, Somebody Somewhere, is currently on its third and final season. I love this show, but I'm really struggling with something. I hope you'll help me out. I find it tough to categorize the show in terms of genre. I'm like, I wanna call it a romantic comedy, but it's also sort of like an ensemble slice of life. At times it's a musical. How would you describe the show?

[B]

Well, I have a terrible time describing it too. So maybe that's why we have so such an intimate audience. I don't know. I think of it as, you know, people say dramedy, but kind of just a slice of life. Some tender moments, some, you know, and maybe a fart.

[A]

I was gonna say some tender moments and then like a big diarrhea scene in season two.

[B]

Yeah, because that's real life.

[A]

Of course it's real life.

[B]

Maybe not for you, but for people I know.

[A]

St. Louis sushi. Is that a real thing?

[B]

Yeah, my friend Larry Crone, it's one of his signature dishes. At parties, you know, he always passes around his little canopy or whatever, but it's basically ham wrapp, cream cheese wrapped around a pickle. And you know what, it's always a hit.

[A]

No, it sounds so good is the thing.

[B]

Yeah, but you know, on the show we had to kind of, you know, make it fun.

[A]

You had to make it fun. And by that you mean you had to fill it with a lot of farts. Okay. Your character on Somebody somewhere is a woman named Sam who is somewhat inspired by your own life. Like you, Sam grew up in Manhattan, Kansas, where the show takes place. Sam loves singing, but she has a lot of fear and self doubt around it. Whereas you, Bridget, have a. A cabaret song where you proudly describe all the shapes and sizes boobs come in. I love that song. You just seem fearless on stage. Have you ever had any of Sam's self doubt in your own life?

[B]

Sure. I mean, a lot of what I have in common with Sam is obviously the love of singing. And Sam really comes alive when she sings. And I feel the same way. I feel like I connect. I kind of plug into life when I'm singing. There's a way that I can connect to my emotions when I'm doing that that I can't sometimes do otherwise. And I also struggle with self worth. Like she does. So over the course of these three seasons as she is Acknowledged, kind of to herself, what she's working through. I mean, she doesn't say, oh, I'm Sam and I have self doubt. You know, we sort of see her trying to push through some of that. And I've learned a lot from her. Like, sometimes we write the scenes and I'm like, man, I wish I could be like Sam.

[A]

Have you ever applied? I mean, I know it's like loosely autobiographical, but of course the show is a work of fiction. But you're saying that you've learned things from Sam. Have you ever found yourself, quite literally, applying a lesson that she's learned in the show to your own life? Do you ever do something in your own life and think, wow, I learned this from Sam, my character in Somebody Somebody?

[B]

Absolutely. There's something that Sam says in season two, she's like, nnp, no new people. And that's kind of like me. I have a lot of friends, my life is full enough, and I'm socially anxious, like many people are. So I just like, I'd just rather not. But Sam, especially in season three, is allowing more people into her life and into her heart. And I think that I have honestly been trying to work on that myself.

[A]

Interesting. Okay, so what you're saying is in season two, Sam kind of adopts this, yeah, life ethos, I don't know, mantra. No new people meeting no new friends. But then in season three, we see her sort of open back up again. And you're saying that you're trying to do the same thing in your life right now.

[B]

Because I think for me and for Sam, it's like, you know, if you're somebody that does struggle with self worth, every time you meet somebody, you're like, they're gonna see the cracks.

[A]

Yeah, totally.

[B]

Or that they'll just see what I don't like about myself, you know, And I think Sam feels that way. So she's like, I've got this person that makes me feel good. This person makes me feel safe. And that was why it was so devastating in season one, why her sister died. Because her sister loved her warts and all, you know, And Joel, he loves her warts and all. And, you know, I think it's just something that not everybody walks into a room and thinks people are gonna like him.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Maybe most people don't. I really don't know.

[A]

I don't think most people do. I certainly don't. But you're so right. In season three, this current season of Somebody somewhere, we see that sort of protective shield start to Crack in the best way.

[B]

Yeah. And she's terrified, but she does it anyway. Which is the theme of the season is growth against all Odds. And I think that that is.

[A]

I love that. Is that something you said in the writer's room? Growth against all odds?

[B]

It is. And I do have the necklace now, and I'm not wearing it right now. Stop.

[A]

You should have worn it. Wait, is it a necklace that says Growth against all odds a lot? Put on a necklace.

[B]

No, it's gaao. I have on one necklace. I also have a golden toilet, which is obviously from season two. And then from season one, I have a one. Cause I'm number one on the call sheet. And I was like, this may never happen again. So I'm buying myself a necklace.

[A]

I am so sad that you didn't wear all three.

[B]

I know I normally do, but I just. I don't know. I don't know why I didn't do it today. I was. You know, I got my day started kind of early.

[A]

You got a lot of things going. I love it. There's a lot of acronyms. I'm realizing no new people. Nnp.

[B]

There's agg. There's all Glory to God, which is something that kind of goes by pretty quick. But I talk that way. That's kind of my.

[A]

You're an acronym gal.

[B]

Yeah. DDHD is my theme. You know, I got that from LL Cool J. Dreams don't have deadlines.

[A]

This is such a fun thing to figure out about you.

[B]

Murray Hill and I text each other every day. Rfb. Ready for Bed.

[A]

Murray Hill also stars on the show as Fred. I love Ready for Bed. Rfb.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You've talked a bit about the relationship between Sam and her best friend Joel, played by Jeff Hiller. For people who have not had the pleasure of seeing somebody somewhere, how would you explain who Sam and Joel are to each other? It's a friendship, but there's so much more there.

[B]

Yeah. I think, you know, Sam has lost her sister, and it was everything to her. And then Joel kind of sneaks in, and he's so undeniable. He's so charismatic and charming, and he's got a smile.

[A]

Just lights, lights everyone up.

[B]

Yeah. And he's got a great giggle, and. And he's kind. And she's kind of like a little, like, you know, got a little more of an edge. But most importantly, there's a really wonderful, warm chemistry between the two of them. And even when she kind of gets reactive or reactionary, he still loves her. He's not Gonna dump her. Which she thinks that he's gonna do. So. And she's so. You know, she's such a raw nerve. And. I don't know, just the way that Joel takes care of her is very moving to me. And what I love about their relationship is, you know, sometimes you don't expect that you're gonna meet such a central relationship to your life in your 40s. And I think that's incredible. Goes against the NNP. No new people. But I just love it. And I also love that it's a real primary thing for Sam. Like, her friends are her people. And it's not like she's looking for a romantic love. She's looking for her person. And that's kind of what she's. Is finding Angel.

[A]

Yeah, her person. I mean, I think it's a really. I don't know if I. I'll say, like, kind of radical. Reframe the idea that your person can be a friend.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. And it doesn't mean you can't have, you know, romantic relationships and you can't, you know, have a couple rolls in the hay and a little, you know, a little smoochy smooch in the alley after a couple drinks at a bar. But. But I think that for me, it was really important that this show be about the friendship and not about, like, girl meets boy boy in the way that you meet a guy and all of a sudden he thinks you're beautiful. You fall in love in that way. This is a different kind of love. Which is why I love the essay that we're gonna be talking about later. But. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And we're gonna go to the essay reading in just a bit. But before we do, I wanna talk about a moment on the show that I think is the epitome of this kind of love between friends that you're talking about. Early in this new season, Sam helps Joel's boyfriend, whose name is Brad, write a love song as a. As a secret surprise for Joel. And first of all, that's already a nice enough gesture from Sam, but it means even more because we've seen her really struggle with the fact that Joel is now in a couple and isn't around for her as much. Can you tell us what happens when they're all at the party and Brad gets up to sing this love song for Joel?

[B]

Yeah. The character of Brad, played by the wonderful and underutilized Tim Bagley. That's Joel's boyfriend.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The plays Joel's boyfriend gets up to sing this song, and he loves Joel. But he hasn't really been able to or had the need to say that publicly. And he's doing it in front of Joel's friends and his church friends. And as soon as he starts to try to speak, he's so overwhelmed. And it reminds me of. It's a very Midwestern thing, and probably other places too. But when my brother did the toast at his daughter's wedding, he was like, okay, I just wanna. And he, like. It's just like. You know, that thing, like. And he couldn't talk, and it was just like. You know, when you eat that huge.

[A]

The emotion is caught in the throat.

[B]

Yeah, that's exactly the thing when it's too much. And what I love about it is, like, that Sam is right there with him. And she's like, I'm gonna help you get through this. Because she knows what it's gonna mean to Joel.

[A]

And she jumps in and she starts singing for him.

[B]

Yeah. She knows how special Joel is. And so anytime that she can communicate that, share that, especially through music, she's gonna do it.

[A]

Bridget, would you mind. If you want. It would be amazing to hear, like, a line. But I don't know if you're prepared to sing today.

[B]

Do you like the beginning of the song?

[A]

I would love to.

[B]

Okay, sure. I wake in the morning and I see your face I'm the luckiest guy in the entire human race A cup of coffee or a trip to the store I'll take forever and then I'll take some more but, oh, the way you look at me I can't explain it But I know it's love oh, love, love. That's the first one. Oh, my God.

[A]

Don't do this to me right now. I don't know. It is so. God. And you wrote these lyrics?

[B]

Mm.

[A]

It is so simple, and it's perfect. Of course, this is a love song, ostensibly for, you know, one man to another man. You know, between two men who love each other. But also, I don't know. Like, I really.

[B]

It's also Sam's love for Joel in.

[A]

The way that she's looking at him. Absolutely.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. I 100% agree.

[A]

Thank you so much for singing that. I really feel grateful to be in the room when you do that. I'm serious. Okay. That's a tough act to follow. You are also here to do us another favor, which is to read a modern love essay. Do you wanna say anything about this essay before you get into it? Why you chose it.

[B]

Well, I chose it because, you know, the title when you greatest romance is a friendship because it's something that I can relate to and I read it. I thought it was such a sweet and moving examination of two people not romantically linked. I don't know. I just thought it was really special.

[A]

We'll be back in just a minute with Bridget Everett reading today's Modern Love essay. Stay with us. This podcast is supported by Pure Leaf Iced Tea Take a real break with Pure Leaf Zero sugar iced tea. All the flavor, all the sweetness, zero calories. Finally, an iced tea without compromise. Refreshingly bold and sweet, but with zero trade offs. Time for a tea break. Time for Pure Leaf. All right. Groceries, Soccer practice Getting the Tires Start.

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[A]

Okay, Bridget, you are about to read a Modern Love essay for us by the novelist Victor Lodato. Whenever you're ready.

[B]

1. Your greatest romance is a friendship. Is this your grandson? People sometimes ask Austin when she's out with me. No honey, he's my friend. At this point, folks usually smile tightly and turn away, perhaps worried there is more than friendship going on between the old lady and the younger man seated at the bar, giggling like teenagers. Why we're giggling, I couldn't tell you. Often our mirth seems fueled by some deep celled delight at being together. When I met Austin, I was in my early 40s and not looking for a friend, I'd come alone to this small Oregon town to finish a book. So when a bony blue eyed stranger knocked at my door, introducing herself as the lady from across the way and wondering if I might like to come over and see her garden, maybe have a gin and tonic slightly declined. Watching her walk away, though, in her velvet slip ons and wrinkled blouse, I felt a strange pang, a slow pin of sadness that I suppose could be best described as loneliness. Suddenly I was dashing into the dirt road to say that I was sorry that she had caught me in the middle of work, but that yes, I would enjoy seeing her garden. Not the gin and sonic, she said. Oh sure, that too, I answered, blushing. And before I could suggest a visit the next week, she said, so I'll see you in A few hours, then. Shall we say 4:30? I had to admire her sense of time. Next week is for someone who can afford to put things off. Austin, in her 80s, surely felt no such luxury. I liked your face, she admitted later, telling me she had spotted me at the mailbox. As she poured the gin, I told her that I had seen her at the mailbox as well, and I liked her face, too. I wish I had better eyebrows, she said. They used to be fabulous. Her garden was astounding, like something dreamed rather than planted, a Mad Hatter Gothic in which a lawless grace prevailed. At dusk the deer arrived, nibbling the crab apple blossoms. We had been talking for hours, slightly tipsy, and then we were in the kitchen cooking dinner. A retired psychologist, Austin had traveled extensively, spoke terrible Spanish and worse, French, and was a painter. Now she had two husbands, the second of whom died in this house in a small bed in the living room. That's what I'll do, austin told me. This room gets the best light. We turned to the windows, but the light was already gone. That we could be quiet together so soon and without strain felt auspicious. So you've run away from home, she said at one point. There was something about our interaction that reminded me of friendships from my childhood, in which, no question was off limits on religion. She claimed to be an atheist. I admitted to being haunted by the ghosts of a Roman Catholic upbringing. She said her sisters believed in hell and worried about her soul. Austin, though, seemed afraid of nothing, least of all death. I said I was still afraid of the dark. Living alone, she said, it can make you funny. I laughed but changed the subject, telling her I would like to see her paintings. Later, crossing the road back to my Craigslist sublet, I wondered what I was doing. I reminded myself of my plan. Hiding out, staying in the dream of the book. I wasn't here to socialize. I could finish a draft in a few months and head back home. Besides, if I wanted a friend during my retreat, I would find someone my age to throw back beers with gin and tonics with an old lady in her garden. And that was not the plan. But there I was the next weekend, having dinner with her. And then it was every weekend. Austin's older friends seemed confused. Is he helping you with a computer? One asked when I first started talking about Austin to my out of town friends. They assumed I'd found a new boyfriend. Austin's a woman, I would say. Besides, she's in her 80s. She's just a pal. Even as they replied, that's cool. I could almost hear them thinking. Must be slim pickings out in Oregon. What was perplexing, I suppose, was not that two people of such different ages had become friends, but that we had essentially become best friends. Others regarded our devotion as either strange or quaint, like one of those unlikely animal friendships. A monkey and a pigeon, perhaps. Admittedly, when I would spot us in a mirror, I saw how peculiar we were. This vivacious white haired imp in her bright colors and chunky style jewelry sitting with a dark haired man in his drab earth tone sweaters and Clark Kent glasses. Maybe I looked like some nerdy gigolo or this woman's attentive secretary. If we made no sense from the outside, it didn't matter. We were mostly looking at each other. One night Austin chatted about her life as a middle aged wife in academia. I completely missed out on the wildness of the 60s, she said. I told her I'd missed out too. You weren't born yet, she said. Or hardly. Often we cooked together as we had that first night, after which she would show me whatever painting she was working on. At her request, I also started reading to her from my book in progress. We gave each other feedback. Our work improved. When my six month lease was up, I renewed it. The novel wasn't finished, plus I couldn't imagine a better neighbor. Before I knew it, three years had passed. I was writing seven days a week and spending most evenings with Austin. Sometimes she had spells of vertigo now, and when we walked together she held my arm. Often she couldn't find the right word for something. When she wanted to keep away visitors so she could paint, she hung a sign on her studio door. Do NOT destroy. Soon the headaches came and more jumbled language. I need to screw my calls, she said, meaning she needed to screen them. We laughed, then sobered. Tests were scheduled. Now she is eight months into what the doctors say is a quick, ravaging illness deep in her brain. They say there is no stopping it. A year more if she's lucky. Even as I refuse to believe this, I prepare for it. How? By keeping my promise to her. A few months before her diagnosis, Austin had attended a wedding. She showed me a copy of the vows, which had been distributed at the ceremony, a detailed list. I read it carefully, at Austin's bidding. We were sitting in a car, waiting for our favorite Thai restaurant to open. I never had anything like that with the men in my life, she said, pointing to the vows. We loved each other, but we didn't have that. She was crying now Something she rarely did. I took her hand and said, well, you have it with me. Everything but the sex. At which point the monkey kissed the pigeon. That night, I had an odd realization. Some of the greatest romances of my life have been friendships. And these friendships have been, in many ways, more mysterious than erotic love. More subtle, Less selfish. More attuned to kindness. Of course, Austin was going to die long before I did. That's not what this is about. This, I have come to understand, is a love story. Austin continued to paint for several months. More fractured, psychedelic self portraits in scorching colors. Her best work lately, though she is tired and hardly leaves a couch. I sit with her at the opposite end, our legs intertwined. Read to me, she says. When I tell her the book is finished, she tells me to read her something new. But whenever I do, she promptly falls asleep. I don't leave, though. I stare out the window. Austin was right. This room does get the best light recently. Her hair is thinned, but she has a shock of white up front that a friend's daughter has died. With a streak of fuchsia. She looks like some punk girl I might have dated in high school. She had a bit more energy the last time I came to visit and said, oh, Victor, I had the most wonderful dessert today. Peaches and Connecticut. Have you ever had it? No, I said, smiling. I love the idea of it. Two things that don't seem to go together. Monkeys and pigeons. Peaches in Connecticut. Unlikely, yes, but delicious beyond measure.

[A]

Mmm.

[B]

Such a beautiful, beautiful essay.

[A]

Yeah. Tell me your thoughts. How did that feel to. To read?

[B]

Well, I. You know, I think that for me, as I mentioned before, you know, when you read about great loves, it always seems to be about a romantic relationship. And I just. I just love that these are two people that have found each other and. And they just. And they're the one for each other. I don't know. I think what's so great about this relationship is they just sort of slip into kind of a life together, and. I don't know, I just. I want that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm surrounded by people in romantic relationships, and it's not what I'm looking for. At least not right now. And so when I see somebody that finds. First of all, it gives me hope that you can always find somebody. They may not look what you think. Look like what you think you're gonna. What you're gonna want or what you're gonna need. It reminds me to stay open. You know the part where they talk about sitting on the couch and Their legs intertwined. It's like to have that kind of intimacy with somebody without the expectation of a romance is. It just hits me right in my heart. I don't know. I'm moved. And I have this new neighbor and she's great. And I can tell that she really misses the person that lived there before me. And not that she's Austin or anything like that, but I just think about the possibility of keeping yourself open and, and not running away from it. Because look at the great reward. Look at the great reward between Victor and Austin. And it is the thing too. It's like when all your friends are in relationships, you sort of. And you're like, nobody's emergency contact, you know, it can feel a little lonely. But there are other people out there that might be the same and looking for this, you know, there might be a lid for my pot. I'm like, I hate that expression. But you know, maybe my lid comes in the version of a lady with some comfortable slip on shoes checking me out at my mailbox.

[A]

Your new neighbor. I was gonna say that. The fact that you are keeping yourself open to this friendship with your neighbor lady.

[B]

No, I'm trying.

[A]

You're trying. But that's breaking the end. The no new people rule. You're breaking the no new people rule, which is beautiful and amazing and brave and human and all of those things.

[B]

Yeah. And I just love that, you know, that, that she's like, okay, 4:30, you know, like she's, she's bringing him in and what does she say? You know, you don't have the luxury, you know, like later is for people who have time. Who have time. And honestly, like the amount of loss I've experienced over the last few years, it's. We don't always have time. So.

[A]

Yeah, you know what?

[B]

So have the gin and tonic.

[A]

Have the gin and tonic while you can. Absolutely. We'll be right back.

[B]

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[A]

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[A]

The New York Times app has all this stuff that you may not have seen. I can immediately navigate to something that.

[B]

Matches what I'm feeling.

[A]

The way the tabs are at the top with all of the different sections.

[B]

It's just easier to navigate that way.

[A]

There is something for everyone. Those personalized page. The YouTube, that one's my favorite.

[B]

I can also save my articles easily in this area right under the byline. It says click here if you'd like to listen to this article.

[A]

I like that the cooking tab on top is really easily accessible.

[B]

So if I'm on my way home and I'm just thinking, oh, what am.

[A]

I going to make for dinner?

[B]

I'll just quickly go on to cooking and say, oh, I've got this in my pantry. I'm going to try out some of these recipes I see in here. I go to games, always doing the mini, doing the wordle.

[A]

I loved how much content it exposed me to things that I never would have sought to turn to a news.

[B]

App for this app is essential.

[A]

The New York Times app, all of the times all in one place. Download it [e-mail] apparently, you know, you're speaking about this neighbor. And I want to ask too, like, reading this essay, obviously the friendship between Victor and Austin feels very similar to the. Or not similar. But it reminds me as resonances of the friendship between Sam, your character on somebody somewhere, and Joel, her best friend. And I wonder too, like, is there anyone in your real life where you read this essay and you're thinking about, you know, this friend.

[B]

Specifically? No. I mean, there's somebody when it comes to Joel that reminds me, you know, I did have what I thought was this person. And then, you know, they. And they're still, you know, we're still very close, you know, still one of my best friends. But, you know, but I miss that, you know. Cause then, you know, he's in a relationship now and it just changes. And Sam says that to Joel, like, it's never gonna. It's not gonna be the same. And it doesn't mean that you can't. That, you know, we still have a very valuable relationship. But. But I just think this was that.

[A]

Huh? And it changed.

[B]

And it changed.

[A]

You know, it's so interesting that you said.

[B]

And that's okay.

[A]

Yeah, I was gonna say, how did you. Yeah, of course it's okay.

[B]

And I was awful when it did.

[A]

But it's so interesting what you're saying, because as much as you're willing to share, I feel like that's something I can relate to. I think many listeners can relate to. And you said, it's really freaking hard.

[B]

It is.

[A]

How did you get through that? Like, what did you tell yourself?

[B]

I mean, it took me a long time. I was really reactionary and immature. But he. And, you know. And at first, they kind of disappeared together. And that's also okay. Like, I understand both sides of it, like, why you want to get lost in a romantic relationship. And, you know, you think your friends are always gonna be there. But I've kind of always been that person for people. I've always kind of been like, she'll be there. And after a while, you start to kind of. It affects you, and it's like, you don't want to feel like the second or third string. It's just like, you can't help but feel that way. But I also don't think that just because somebody's in a romantic relationship, that that means that you can't be a focal. You know, a. I'm trying to think.

[A]

Of the right word.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A focal point in their life. A focal point in their life is not the only one anymore.

[B]

Yeah. And so you have to kind of acclimate and adjust. And sometimes you need your friend to let you know that they have this new, wonderful, romantic relationship. And. Great. And I am happy for my friend, and Sam is happy for Joel. But sometimes you need to know that you matter.

[A]

It's accepting that you might not always be as primary to someone as they are to you.

[B]

Yeah. And the truth is, a lot of my friendships are like, you know, if I ask them to do something, they're like, well, let me check with, you know, so and so first. And I understand that you have a life together, of course, but it does make. If everybody's around you is kind of like that, then you start to feel like, well, I'm just like, you know, I'm here when it's convenient for other people, and it hurts. So seeing something like this is like. It just is. It's a dream, and it gives me a lot of hope.

[A]

I love what you said that, you know, I asked you what can you do as the friend who feels like the backup or whatever? And what you said is, it's really good for them to let you know you matter. It's to be reminded.

[B]

It feels like it's always up to the person that's, like, unattached. That's unattached, to kind of adapt and sort of. And you do, and you should, obviously. But I don't know. I'm probably being selfish, but I. I.

[A]

Do not think you're being selfish at all.

[B]

I mean, refresh my little.

[A]

Refresh it. Yeah, put it on. Be like I said it. No, but I think that's so it's kind of a perfect distillation. I mean, a simple one, but I think a true one of what friendship can be. It's just looking someone in the eyes and saying, you matter. You matter to me. You will always matter to me. Yeah. That feels to me like that is what friendship is. You've just.

[B]

Yeah. And I think there, you know, something like that happens in this season with Sam and Jo and, like. And she needs it.

[A]

Yeah. Can you describe a moment where you really felt sure that you mattered to a friend? Like, was there something someone did or said where you felt that?

[B]

Yeah, I think my friends know that I. You know, they. They tell me they love me. I know they do. I know that. I know that they do. But it's also up to me to hear it, you know, and that's.

[A]

What do you mean by that?

[B]

Well, I mean, I have to be able to take it in, and it's, you know, it's challenging sometimes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I was just with Mary Katherine, who plays Tricia, my sister on the show, and we used to be roommates, and, you know, and. And she said something to me. She's like, you know, I love you. Right. And I was like, you know, I'd had a couple margarinis, and I was like, don't try to unpack my. Me right now. But she's, you know, she's a great friend, and she's always done a lot. My friend Zach has really invested a lot of time into making me hear it, so. And I think that's kind of the most important part that you have to. You have to let it in. Yeah. It's not easy.

[A]

You know what I'm thinking, too, with, you know, people have expectations when we get older and we enter into romantic relationships that, like, friendship will become less important. Right. It's just, like, lower down on the hierarchy. It's less important than, you know, your spouse or your kids or your job or whatever.

[B]

A whole host of things.

[A]

Right. How can we cultivate close friendships in our adulthood when there's so much else competing for our time or for our friends time?

[B]

I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. I guess that the, you know, my dream is to have a central, you know, be central in a friend's life again. And. I don't know. I just. I love all my friends. I don't want to, you know, I don't want them to listen like it. I don't want them to listen to this and think any. Anything, you know, less than that. But when my Friends are making me a priority. It matters.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because it is like all those things you say, like, there's just life sweeps people up, and sometimes the friendships, you know, they become a backseat. And it's not that way for Sam and Joel. And that's what I love. I feel like it's fantasy.

[A]

And it's so true that it's so clear rather that it's not that way for you. And I think. I mean, not to get, you know, a bit cheesy with it, but I think there are a lot of people who feel that way about friendships, and I do think that somebody somewhere helps those people feel very seen, as you say, those stories are. We have so many romantic comedies where it's, you know, girl meets guy or girl meets girl, guy meets guy, whatever, but it's romantic love. And the connective thing about your show is that that love story is a friendship.

[B]

Yeah. And learning to. And that it is central. But it's also just then how you can both go about your lives with keeping each other at the forefront. At the core. At the core. Yeah.

[A]

My final question to you near the end of this essay. Victor tells Austin that their relationship has everything but sex. And he realizes that, quote, the greatest romances of my life have been friendships. What do you think about the idea of using romance to describe a friendship? That word. Does it work? Do we need better words?

[B]

No, I love it. I love it. I say that all the time. I'm like, you know, with Sam and Joel, like, they. They fall in love with each other, and it is a romance. It is like you can get swept off your feet by a friend and you don't have. Just because there may not be the sex involved, you are in love with them in some degree.

[A]

Bridget Everett, thank you so much. This was such a lovely and affirming conversation. I really appreciate it.

[B]

Thank you. I appreciate you having me in.

[A]

The Primetime Emmy Awards will air on September 14th on CBS, and you can find a link to Victor Lodato's essay, When youn Greatest Romance Is a Friendship in our show. Notes. Modern Love is produced by Reeva Goldberg, Davis Land, Emily Lang, and Amy Pearl. It's edited by Lynn Levy and our executive producer, Jen Poyant. Production management by Christina Josa. The Modern Love theme music is by Dan Powell. Original music in this episode by Rowan Niemisto, Dan Powell, Amen Sahota and Diane Wong. This episode was mixed by Daniel Ramirez and Efim Shapiro with studio support from Matty Masiello and Nick Pittman. Special thanks to Mihima Chablani and Jeffrey Miranda. And to our video team, Brooke Minters, Sawyer Roque and Eddie Costas. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones. Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you want to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we've got the instructions in our show Notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.