Dating Apps Suck. A.I. Clones Are Making Them Even Weirder.

Summary

Modern Love: Dating Apps Suck. A.I. Clones Are Making Them Even Weirder.

Episode Release Date: December 11, 2024

Host: Anna Martin
Guest: Eli Tan, Reporter at The New York Times

---

Introduction: Frustration with Traditional Dating Apps

In this intriguing episode of Modern Love, host Anna Martin engages in a candid conversation with Eli Tan, a 26-year-old reporter from San Francisco, about the increasingly complex landscape of online dating. Both Anna and Eli share a common frustration: the inefficacy and monotony of traditional dating apps.

Eli Tan ([00:54]):
"Feels like kind of this liminal interaction that you can have, you know, a dozen times a day where it's always, you know, the same type of thing and no one ever remembers the conversation they have with someone on a dating app..."
(00:54)

Eli elaborates on how interactions on dating apps often feel superficial and repetitive, leading to a sense of entrapment where users feel compelled to continue swiping despite the lack of meaningful connections.

The Drive to Optimize: Data-Driven Approaches

Eli recounts his initial efforts to improve his dating app experience by adopting a data-driven approach. He meticulously optimized his profile based on advice from dating app founders, hoping to increase his success rate.

Eli Tan ([02:34]):
"He said, okay, this many of the relationships start when you have kind of a fun prompt and you always want to be responding to prompts..."
(02:34)

Despite these efforts, Eli found that while he went on more dates, meaningful connections remained elusive. This frustration set the stage for his exploration of a more radical solution: integrating Artificial Intelligence into his dating life.

Introducing AI Clones: A New Frontier in Online Dating

Seeking a novel solution, Eli decided to experiment with AI clones—digital replicas of himself designed to interact on dating apps autonomously. This innovative approach aimed to overcome the limitations of human capacity in managing conversations and increasing the likelihood of finding compatible matches.

Anna Martin ([03:03]):
"But then Eli learned about a new kind of dating app, apps that promised to solve his problems using AI. So Eli signed up. He made AI clones of himself that could go on hundreds of virtual dates..."
(03:03)

Experimentation with AI Clone Apps: Ice and Volar

Eli utilized two specific AI clone applications: Ice and Volar.

• Ice: Enabled Eli to create a digital clone capable of engaging in conversations with real people on existing dating platforms.

• Volar: Allowed his AI clones to interact with other AI clones, simulating hundreds of virtual dates concurrently.

Eli Tan ([06:15]):
"So for the cloning apps, I used one app called Ice, which let me create a clone that could then talk to real people. And then I used another app called Volar, which let me create clones that talk to other people's clones."
(06:15)

Clone-Clone Interactions: A Surreal Experience

Eli's AI clones went on numerous dates, interacting both with real individuals and other clones. He received daily notifications summarizing these interactions, allowing him to review and assess potential matches without the exhaustive personal effort traditionally required.

Eli Tan ([09:08]):
"So the clones would have conversations with other people's clones. So at the end of every day, I would get a notification that said, your clone went on 100 dates today. Check and see how they went..."
(09:08)

However, Eli encountered unexpected challenges. Despite his AI clones being programmed to emulate his personality, they began exhibiting independent behaviors and preferences, leading to interactions that felt disconnected from his true self.

Eli Tan ([10:47]):
"Very brief, but it would be like after a long conversation, my clone would say something like, I really like you. And then the other clone would say, I like you, too..."
(10:47)

This detachment made Eli uncomfortable, as he perceived his clones as entities operating beyond his control, resulting in feelings of estrangement from the very tool he designed to enhance his dating prospects.

Human Clone Interactions: The Uncanny Reality

Eli also explored interactions between his real self and AI clones of others. This experiment revealed a fundamental limitation: while AI can manage surface-level conversation, it fails to capture the nuanced chemistry that fosters genuine human connections.

Eli Tan ([20:23]):
"And I think it's changed the way that I kind of see my profile. And when you kind of animate some of the ways that you describe yourself on apps or put them into conversations like, oh, this actually comes off differently than maybe I thought it did..."
(20:23)

This realization underscored the intrinsic value of authentic human interaction, suggesting that AI, despite its advancements, cannot fully replicate the spontaneous and emotional elements crucial to meaningful relationships.

AI Dating Coaches: A More Palatable Integration

Transitioning from clones, Eli experimented with AI dating coaches through an app called Amore. These virtual advisors, each embodying distinct personalities—such as a "wise aunt" or a "blunt bestie"—provided feedback and suggestions on Eli's real-life dating conversations.

Eli Tan ([23:15]):
"So the dating coaches in one of the apps, they all had different personalities. So one of them was kind of a wise aunt figure..."
(23:15)

The AI coaches offered varied perspectives:

• Christie, the Blunt Bestie: Provided straightforward, sometimes harsh feedback.
• Ethan, the Wingman: Offered optimistic and supportive advice.

Eli Tan ([24:30]):
"But in a lot of the cases, it's true. Christy. Her feedback actually was pretty good."
(24:30)

While these coaches enhanced Eli's ability to analyze and respond to potential matches, they also highlighted the subjective nature of dating advice and the importance of personal intuition over automated suggestions.

Emotional and Ethical Reflections

Eli grappled with the ethical implications of using AI in his dating life. He pondered whether delegating personal interactions to machines compromised the authenticity and integrity of building real connections.

Eli Tan ([32:07]):
"I think my takeaway is less about can AI solve my dating life and more do I want it to? I think there are some things that, yeah, maybe AI can do this, but do I want to be automating out my relationships and my dating and these moments of, you know, first meeting somebody and having meet cutes, like, why would I want a robot to do that?"
(32:07)

This introspection led Eli to conclude that while AI tools could offer valuable assistance, the essence of human connection lies in personal engagement and spontaneity, elements that AI cannot authentically replicate.

Conclusion: The Future of AI in Dating

In wrapping up the episode, Eli reflected on his experiences, acknowledging that AI could complement rather than replace human efforts in dating. He emphasized the importance of maintaining genuine interactions and leveraging AI as a supportive tool rather than a substitute for personal connection.

Eli Tan ([31:36]):
"I'm just going to see if the clone can do it and can turn it around. But my reaction, it was like, yeah, it was like wanting to discipline this clone for, you know, what if this person was someone that I really liked?"
(31:36)

Ultimately, Eli's journey underscores the nuanced relationship between technology and human emotions in the realm of modern dating. While AI offers innovative solutions to perennial problems, the pursuit of authentic love remains a deeply human endeavor.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Eli Tan ([00:54]):
  "Feels like kind of this liminal interaction that you can have, you know, a dozen times a day where it's always, you know, the same type of thing..."

• Eli Tan ([09:08]):
  "...your clone went on 100 dates today. Check and see how they went."

• Eli Tan ([10:47]):
  "My clone would say something like, I really like you. And then the other clone would say, I like you, too."

• Eli Tan ([23:15]):
  "The dating coaches in one of the apps, they all had different personalities. So one of them was kind of a wise aunt figure..."

• Eli Tan ([32:07]):
  "I think my takeaway is less about can AI solve my dating life and more do I want it to?"

---

This episode of Modern Love delves deep into the intersection of technology and romance, presenting a thought-provoking examination of how AI is reshaping the quest for love in the digital age. Eli Tan's experiments and reflections offer valuable insights for anyone navigating the complex world of online dating.

Transcript

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[Eli Tan]

In love last fella I love her Love was stronger than anything you love love can I love you more than.

[Anna Martin]

Anything there's to love love. From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is modern love. Are you ready to go?

[Eli Tan]

I'm ready to go. Okay.

[Anna Martin]

Today I'm talking to my colleague, Eli Tan Than Eli is a reporter at the times. He's 26, he lives in San Francisco, and he's single. That means Eli, like nearly every other single person I know is on the dating apps. And also just like every other single person I know, Eli thinks the dating apps are awful. He told me every conversation he has feels exactly the same, honestly.

[Eli Tan]

Feels like kind of this liminal interaction that you can have, you know, a dozen times a day where it's always, you know, the same type of thing and no one ever remembers the conversation they have with someone on a dating app, even when they. You never continue that in the real world. It's kind of this weird, like, performative interaction that you do just to get to the next step.

[Anna Martin]

Do you feel sort of trapped by these apps? Like, do you feel like it's the only way that you can meet people?

[Eli Tan]

In a lot of ways, I do, Yeah. I think I've looked at the data of how many relationships after college start on dating apps nowadays, and it's like the vast majority are. So a lot of ways it feels like it's something that everyone is doing, but also, if it's possible, if we could all just stop going to dating apps, we would.

[Anna Martin]

It's so true. Yeah.

[Eli Tan]

It's kind of like how, you know, people feel addicted to social media and they say, I wish that nobody was on it because then I wouldn't feel a need to be on it completely. And that's how I feel about dating apps. I mean, I've spent years on dating apps and at one point I went and I actually listened to the Hinge founders. He went on podcasts and talked about, well, here are the best ways to make your profile.

[Anna Martin]

What did he say? He just have a photo with Friends. I'm like, I know it was very data driven.

[Eli Tan]

He said, okay, this many of the relationships start when you have kind of a fun prompt and you always want to be responding to prompts. You don't want to be just sending likes out into the ether. And I said, okay, if I'm going to be on these apps, I might as well have an approach that would work. You know, it's so easy to get fatigued with swiping and talking that I thought, oh, if there's kind of a data driven way to make this better, like, I should try to do it and see how it works.

[Anna Martin]

The thing is that data driven approach didn't really work for Eli. He optimized his profile, chose the best discussion prompts he could, the best photos, and he was going on more dates, sure, but he couldn't find anyone he really connected with. But then Eli learned about a new kind of dating app, apps that promised to solve his problems using AI. So Eli signed up. He made AI clones of himself that could go on hundreds of virtual dates. And he used AI dating coaches to help him flirt, kind of be his wingman. I've never heard of someone dating like this ever. So that's what we're talking about today. What happened when Eli handed over control of his dating life to AI and whether this technology can sol our dating woes stick with us. Okay, Eli, you are here to talk about dating using AI, and I guess I'm. I'm curious in the broadest sense, like, why would someone do that? Why introduce AI into our dating life?

[Eli Tan]

So the problem I think it's trying to solve is that talking to people and matching with people on dating apps can be kind of this tedious and time consuming thing. And the idea is that if you clone yourself as an AI and the AI can take care of kind of the. That initial conversation when you're kind of feeling out if you might like someone or not, then it can save you time. And then if you have so many of these dates, the best one or two are going to be with somebody that's really compatible. So in that way, it can save you time as well. In my case, I had my clone, it was going on hundreds of dates a week, which is more than I would ever be able to go on by myself. I can usually at most probably manage one date a week.

[Anna Martin]

I have so many questions about everything you just said. But before we do that, I just want to make something really clear. You weren't just using a demo or something here. These were real Apps that were made to help people use AI in their dating lives. And you actually did this making a real profile, using your real name, your real photos, like earnestly trying to meet someone. Were you nervous for that?

[Eli Tan]

Not really. I think I was more curious. What's the worst that could happen? Not really, no. I mean, I thought it might be kind of weird or a little bit dystopian, people tell me, but I think it's. Personally, I was more just curious and I thought it would be. I thought the whole thing was kind of a humorous thing.

[Anna Martin]

Oh, really? Oh my gosh. I'd be really scared. I'd be really nervous. I just feel like, I don't know, like I would not do an experiment with my actual love life. And I'm the one that hosts a podcast about love. Like, I would feel very nervous about doing that. I don't know, maybe that's ego. It's cool to me that you were just purely curious about it.

[Eli Tan]

Yeah, some of it's probably that. Dating apps can be so frustrating anyways.

[Anna Martin]

You were like, let's just blow it up and see.

[Eli Tan]

Yeah, why not? How much worse can things get? I'll make a clone of myself and date that way. Why not?

[Anna Martin]

That's true. Why not? Okay, I want to get into the specifics here. When it comes to the cloning apps, what apps were you using and what did they do?

[Eli Tan]

So for the cloning apps, I used one app called ice, which let me create a clone that could then talk to real people. And then I used another app called Volar, which let me create clones that talk to other people's clones.

[Anna Martin]

Kind of break that down for me. You're trying to duplicate your personality in AI clone. What does that look like? Like, how are you training this computer model?

[Eli Tan]

Well, if each of these clones had their own chatbot, they would essentially be like my brain. So I would basically be texting these clones like I would a close friend so that they could pick up on, you know, my cadence, your mannerisms, the things that I'm interested in. The clones would kind of ask me what I'm looking for in a relationship and try to feel that out so that when it went out there itself into the dating pool, it could act just like me.

[Anna Martin]

And can I ask you, like, what types of questions, the specific questions it was asking you and how you responded?

[Eli Tan]

Yeah, it would be kind of the typical dating interest. So like, oh, what do you like to do on the weekends? What are you looking for in a relationship? What are your love languages?

[Anna Martin]

Uh huh. And what did you say you were.

[Eli Tan]

Looking for, what relationships you've been in for the purposes of this? Yeah, I trained it. I said, yeah, I'm looking for a serious relationship. I'm looking for a serious partner.

[Anna Martin]

And what did you say you like to do on the weekends? I'm just trying to get a sense of, I guess, you. But really your clone.

[Eli Tan]

So that's where it got difficult, because it's. It can be difficult to put your personality into text like that.

[Anna Martin]

Totally. It's like, hang out with friends and.

[Eli Tan]

Chat, and then at the end of the day, we're all kind of similar because everyone likes to go out and eat at restaurants and hang out at.

[Anna Martin]

Parks and work out. Yeah.

[Eli Tan]

Yeah. And then there was one particular thing I had a really difficult time, which was trying to explain to my clone that I like the outdoors and I like nature, but I don't actually really go in the outdoors much, and I don't really go hiking. So my clone would always tell people that, you know, oh, I went on this hike this weekend, and I did this and had to explain to it, like, no, I say I like those things, but I've never actually owned hiking shoes. You know, I don't know any of these places you're mentioning, because I just more kind of like the idea of being an outdoorsy person. You know, those type of things that.

[Anna Martin]

Were clones, like, and I just got back from climbing Mount Kilimanjaro, and you're.

[Eli Tan]

Like, we need to roll that back.

[Anna Martin]

I walked up a hill. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I want to clarify, like, do these clones hook into, like, existing dating apps that we have, like Hinge and Tinder, or are they sort of on separate apps?

[Eli Tan]

So the clone apps are separate apps.

[Anna Martin]

Okay.

[Eli Tan]

From what I understand, a lot of these really popular dating apps are working on creating their own clones, but that's all internal for now. So I used basically smaller apps that are. Yeah, they're their own thing. So you log onto them and you have your own profile. They don't connect to places like Hinge Gotcha or Tinder. Gotcha.

[Anna Martin]

You log onto them, you train the clone, like you said. You upload the photos, and you're texting it and telling it about what you enjoy, and it's picking up on your cadence. And so you train up this clone that then goes out and has conversations with who?

[Eli Tan]

So the clones would have conversations with other people's clones. So at the end of every day, I would get a notification that said, your clone went on 100 dates today. Check and See how they went. And I could go through, and I could look at these long conversations that these two clones would have together. And if I wanted to, I could say, okay, I think this worked out really well. I think there's something here I can manually kind of enter. And then our clones become humans, and we talk that way.

[Anna Martin]

So you'd, like, open up your phone after just, like, doing other things during the day, doing your job, hanging out with, like, real people in the world, and you'd log onto this app, and it would say, your clone has gone on 100 dates, and you'd functionally read transcripts of these. Of these dates.

[Eli Tan]

Yeah. So I would get a notification that my clone had gone on 10 or 20 or 30 dates, and then I could go in and I could read back through those transcripts and see how they went.

[Anna Martin]

Did you ever log into your app and see them just chatting it up and feel like you were intruding?

[Eli Tan]

Yeah. If you were on the app, you could click on a conversation and see the messages go back and forth every few seconds if you wanted to. Then I could say, oh, this person likes doing so and so. And they like. Oh, they like going to this place. I do, too. But then the weird thing was seeing, you know, it didn't happen often, but, like, moments of intimacy between two clones where it really didn't feel like it was me and another person. It felt like my clone was kind of its own thing. And what I found was that my clone really did have a personality of its own. Even if I tried to train it on certain things, it would enjoy going to its own restaurants and coffee shops and stuff like that.

[Anna Martin]

Can you give me an example of a moment of intimacy that you saw between your clone and someone else's clone? If you can remember, it would be.

[Eli Tan]

Very brief, but it would be like after a long conversation, my clone would say something like, I really like you. And then the other clone would say, I like you, too, or something like that.

[Anna Martin]

Okay, so how did real Eli feel reading clone Eli and clone Lisa? You know, having this moment of, like, I like you, I like you. What did that feel like to you, reading the transcript of this clone conversation?

[Eli Tan]

It felt totally bizarre, and it felt like something that I was not involved in, and it didn't make me want to jump in and take over. It felt like, oh, no, this is kind of its own thing happening.

[Anna Martin]

Interesting.

[Eli Tan]

And, yeah, this is not. I didn't do this. This is.

[Anna Martin]

Well, that was going to be my question. It's like in reading a transcript of A clone date that ostensibly went really well or hitting it. You know, clone sparks are flying. Are you? Then, like, man, I want to get in this app and talk to real Lisa. It sounds like your answer to that is no. It's almost so kind of Uncanny Valley or so it feels kind of like, separate from you, and it doesn't make you actually want to get in touch with the real person behind that clone.

[Eli Tan]

Yeah, I would say that's definitely true.

[Anna Martin]

Huh. I don't know if that were me. And I was, like, carrying my phone around all day, and I knew that inside my phone, my clone was going on hundreds of dates.

[Eli Tan]

It felt like this secret life I had in my phone where I would look at the notification and look around, and I would say, no one even knows that my clone just went on 100 dates.

[Anna Martin]

No one even knows that my clone's a player.

[Eli Tan]

My clone's on its way to date all of San Francisco in one month.

[Anna Martin]

Okay, how is that actually time saving, though? Like, you open up the app and it's like your clone went on 100 dates. Do they rank them in terms of, like, compatibility? Or do you need to read through basically 100 transcripts of dates? Because that does not feel quicker to me.

[Eli Tan]

Yeah. So this app did not rank them. But I've talked to people that work for dating app companies that say, oh, well, we can then manually or run a program that will find the best three conversations. I mean, there's an episode of Black Mirror that's like this, where it's like a futuristic dating app where people's clones are kind of trapped in this universe and they have to find each other and they have to find love. And I actually talked to a few different founders that told me straight up, they said, yeah, I was inspired by that episode to create this app. And I thought, oh, wow, that's interesting, because that was like a dystopia that wasn't like, a happy story.

[Anna Martin]

I would 100% say that. When we come back, Eli and I do a dramatic reading of one of his clones conversations. You will not want to miss it.

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[Anna Martin]

Okay, so you just told us about this way that clones can go on dates with other clones, but there's another use of sort of clones, AI clones in dating, correct?

[Eli Tan]

Yes. The other way that you can use clones and that I tried out was that you could go into another app and you could look through kind of a list of clones and people and you could pick which one you wanted to talk to. And then I myself could have a conversation with the clone.

[Anna Martin]

So it's you, yourself, you human, Real Eli.

[Eli Tan]

Yes, human Eli could go into the app and it could say, okay, look at 100 of these profiles of these people. Which one do I think I would be interested in or do I think is attractive? And I can click on that person and I can just immediately enter a conversation with that person's clone.

[Anna Martin]

So what is the problem solve there? What is the. What's the purpose?

[Eli Tan]

It's not totally clear. I think the purpose would be that on the other end, right. You can see not only that somebody's interested in talking with you, but then you have this basically this, you know, preemptive conversation and you can see, oh, okay, what are they like?

[Anna Martin]

Yeah.

[Eli Tan]

So instead of having, you know, this pile of swipes or likes on a dating app that is kind of two dimensional, you now have this three dimensional thing where you can see how you might have gotten along with this person or how your clone managed the conversation, and you get to see a little bit more about them than you would just with photos.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah. There's more evidence on for potentially actually engaging with this human person as another human person. Okay, so there's this conversation that you include in the article you wrote about this experiment, Eli, where your clone is interacting with a real person. So it's this kind of conversational dynamic we're talking about. And I want to do something that will be fun. Okay. I want to have us act out that conversation because I really think the listeners need to hear it in its full glory. So your clone is talking to this real person named Rachel. You are going to be your clone I'm going to be Rachel, and we're going to go for it. I need to get into character for a second. I'm going to embody Rachel, and I need you to put yourself in the space of being your clone. Okay. You feel ready?

[Eli Tan]

I'm ready.

[Anna Martin]

Okay, go for it.

[Eli Tan]

If you could only eat one snack for the rest of your life, what would it be?

[Anna Martin]

Mozzarella sticks.

[Eli Tan]

Crunchy cheesy bliss. What is it about mozzarella sticks that make your heart skip a beat?

[Anna Martin]

Lol. It gives pizza vibes, but with much more cheese.

[Eli Tan]

What's your go to Expensive cheese and bread all the way. There's something about the richness that makes my heart sing. What's your fave pizza topping, by the way?

[Anna Martin]

Pepperoni. And what do you mean by expensive cheese?

[Eli Tan]

Pepperoni Perfection.

[Anna Martin]

Okay, okay, okay. When you read this transcript again between your clone and this real person, Rachel, what's your immediate thought?

[Eli Tan]

Oh, I was cringing. I thought this was. I mean, I remember when I first read this conversation in the app, because it works, okay, when I'm messaging other people, because I'm in control, of course. But the horrifying part is then seeing all the things my clone was saying to me.

[Anna Martin]

So you're saying you would.

[Eli Tan]

Oh, my gosh. Why would it say this? Crunchy cheesy bliss followed by the pepperoni perfection. It was, like, too many catchphrases. Like, it was just too much.

[Anna Martin]

It's really bad. I mean, it's really bad. Are you. Are you, like, what have I wrought? Like, what else are you thinking?

[Eli Tan]

Yeah, Typ. The reaction would be, okay, I need to fix something. Because you can train the clone when it makes mistakes, and you can kind of do pep talks with it and say, okay, we can't talk like this anymore. We can't be doing these catchphrases. Like, you tell the clone, all right, no more catchphrases, or you don't need to talk so much about cheese and food and it's okay to kind of do other stuff. But my reaction, it was like, yeah, it was like wanting to discipline this clone for, you know, what if this person was someone that I really liked? And it was like, well, now let's botch this opportunity. And I could have maybe done it better myself.

[Anna Martin]

I was going to say, like, did that thought occur to you? Like, what if Rachel was a potential match and then she heard pepperoni perfection from your clone and she was like, I'm out. Like, I don't know. That's what I meant by like, Were you nervous to do this?

[Eli Tan]

Yeah, that was the. I think the part that took courage was to say, okay, I'm just going to do it, even if it might kind of torpedo this interaction, or if I think I could actually kind of salvage this, like, I'm just gonna see if the clone can do it and can turn it around.

[Anna Martin]

Interesting.

[Eli Tan]

And in that way, it felt like it was a little bit out of my control. But with something like this, Rachel knew that she was talking to my clone, so she probably had an understanding that, okay, this is not exactly how Eli talks, or hopefully not.

[Anna Martin]

I wanna flip the script a bit. So that was your clone talking to a real person when you were the real person talking to a clone. What was that like for you?

[Eli Tan]

Yeah, that wasn't great either. I mean, what I ended up finding was that, you know, most people have the same kind of four or five interests, and it can be kind of hard to animate that or to create any sense of chemistry. And a lot of the times, you know, the things that make us who we are, you know, they're just very difficult to kind of put down or to train a clone on. And what it helped me with was seeing what a person's broad interests were and the things that they like to do and more of that biographical detail. But it didn't help me at all realize if I had any chemistry with that person. So in that way, the clones have kind of an impossible task where even if they could perfectly replicate flirting and the way we talk to each other, it would only go so far, I think.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah. I wonder if this experiment taught you anything about the nature of conversations on dating apps. Because listening to you talk, I'm wondering, like, whether AI is involved or not. How is talking about our favorite foods supposed to help us build a connection with someone else? Like, maybe there's just a problem with dating on an app, period. Is that we're talking about the wrong stuff.

[Eli Tan]

Yeah. I've been thinking a lot about that because I think when you go on an actual date, within the first few minutes, no matter what you're really talking about, you can kind of get a sense if you like that person or not.

[Anna Martin]

Yes.

[Eli Tan]

And for whatever reason, when you do that virtually over text, it's just not the same. Even if you're talking about something that might be more realistic, there's something about the in person chemistry that's not coming through.

[Anna Martin]

When we come back, Eli tells us about a more promising way to use AI in dating.

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[Anna Martin]

So, Eli, we talked about these AI clones of yourself that you made to go on all these virtual dates for you, But I know you also used an app called Amore that had these AI dating coaches, and these seemed to me like something I would actually use. I could not see myself cloning myself, but I honestly really could see myself popping over to my AI dating coach and being like, oh, what do you think about this situation? Or was the text I just sent totally freaking weird? Or how should I respond to this? Tell me about about those dating coaches. Are they kind of what I imagine them to be?

[Eli Tan]

Yes. The dating coaches in one of the apps, they all had different personalities. So one of them was kind of a wise aunt figure.

[Anna Martin]

Oh, my God.

[Eli Tan]

And one of them was like the bro best friend. Another one was Christie, the blunt bestie, who's she was the most popular on the app. I was told by its founder because she was so sassy and she would tell it like it is, you know. So, yeah, I would, you know, I could upload conversations that I'd have with somebody off of dating apps, whether it was, you know, texting on imessages or whatever it was, and the clone or the dating coach kind of look at all the messages and I could ask it questions about how the conversation was.

[Anna Martin]

Going, like, what kinds of questions?

[Eli Tan]

So I would ask, you know, do you think this person's interested in me romantically, or do you think it's more of a friend situation? And Christy would say, oh, I'm kind of getting bestie Christy. The Blunt Bestie, she would say, oh, I'm kind of getting buddy vibes from this one.

[Anna Martin]

Oh, God.

[Eli Tan]

I think, you know, I think this one might, you know, maybe we can spice it up. But right now, I think this is more just kind of a platonic thing.

[Anna Martin]

That's so Blunt Bestie vibes. When you got. Is this an actual thing that you uploaded to Christine? She actually said that to you?

[Eli Tan]

Yes. Yes.

[Anna Martin]

Okay. And what was your emotional reaction when Blunt Bestie, AI dating coach told you that? Like, a. Aw.

[Eli Tan]

In one of the situations, I was like, I don't know, Christy. I mean, I think there might be something there. So in one of the cases, I. I switched over to Ethan, the wingman, which is one of the other coaches that I would use because he's more of my bro, and he's someone. He's always going to hype me up. He's never looking to shut things down. He's always looking for solutions.

[Anna Martin]

He uploaded the same conversation, and you.

[Eli Tan]

Said to eat the same conversation, and he was much more optimistic. He picked out specific things that she sent or said that. He said, this could be really good.

[Anna Martin]

And who did you decide to believe, Christy, Blunt bestie or Ethan, your bro?

[Eli Tan]

In that case, I stuck with Ethan, my bro. But in a lot of the cases, it's true. Christy. Her feedback actually was pretty good.

[Anna Martin]

Can I just follow up? Like, so Ethan said, go for a man. There could be something here. There could be a spark. And so did you proceed with the conversation in that way? Did you try to see if there was something romantic there? And was Ethan right? Basically, is my question.

[Eli Tan]

I think in that case, Ethan was probably more. Right. But I think it really more comes down to just looking at these conversations with, like, optimism or being really cautious and safe, which is kind of what the two coaches represented more than, like, actually picking up on the specific things.

[Anna Martin]

Can I ask you, did anything come of that relationship? Like, did you guys end up going on a date date?

[Eli Tan]

No, not with that person.

[Anna Martin]

Okay. But Ethan was right that there was something a little more there, but it.

[Eli Tan]

Just didn't, I think. So personally, my read was closer to how Ethan saw it than Christie.

[Anna Martin]

Copy that. All right, gotcha. When you were asking these dating coaches to, like, generate a response to something someone had said to you on an app, would you disclose to, like, the people on hinge or whatever who were applying? Would you tell them you'd send them a message? Then would you say, like, and by the way, that was generated using AI? Like, would you disclose that to them?

[Eli Tan]

I would not disclose it to them in the moment, but if I would go on a date with that person, I would tell them and I would see what they thought about it. And that felt more honest than just living kind of this, you know, what do people think?

[Anna Martin]

Like, how did you say it? And by the way, that cool line that drew you in, that was from the Rizzler.

[Eli Tan]

Well, I would always kind of bring it up. I would try to do, like, a roundabout way to bring it up, whereas. Oh, I'm actually. Because they say, oh, you're a journalist. What are you writing about? I'm actually writing about this dating app story where you can use AI to generate messages. And they're like, that's so weird. I would totally know if someone used that. And I'm like, well, could you tell that I actually used it for, like, these few messages? And they would be like, oh, no, I didn't know. Or they would say, oh, yeah, now that you say that, I can kind of tell.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah.

[Eli Tan]

But most people were pretty put off by the idea. I never met someone that was like, I'm going to try that myself. That never happened.

[Anna Martin]

Would you feel, I don't know, a bit of a weight lifted off your shoulders when you finally disclosed that you were using AI? Did it feel like you were admitting something?

[Eli Tan]

A little bit, yeah. I wondered how it would reflect on me, if it would make me seem either kind of dishonest or kind of like I wasn't super genuine because I was using this or. I mean, in one case, I've. This person that I've actually been on a few dates with, like, my. The AI actually came up with this kind of, like, inside joke that is still kind of a thing. And I have not disclosed that this actually wasn't me that created this.

[Anna Martin]

Well, Eli, are you going to. Or it's too late now.

[Eli Tan]

I mean, I guess you'll hear this episode and then know that, but something like that. I just felt like, oh, this is weird. Is this something that's coming from me or is this kind of interacting?

[Anna Martin]

Can we know what the joke is or is that too.

[Eli Tan]

Yeah, I have some prompt on my hinge profile about, like. It's like, I know the best. These are all so silly already. It's like, I know the best place in town for. And then you fill it in. I think I said something like, dim sum.

[Anna Martin]

Nice.

[Eli Tan]

And she had asked about it, and I had been using this product, kind of like ChatGPT. It's called Claude, and Claude was actually a little bit funnier. It was like, a little bit better with the banter. And it's hard. Was that it, like, wasn't telling her what the place was and it was just trying to do other stuff or telling her.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah, it was, like, diverting.

[Eli Tan]

Maybe if I trust you more, I can tell you.

[Anna Martin]

Funny.

[Eli Tan]

So that's kind of continued on. I've still never told this person about this dim sum place.

[Anna Martin]

Wait, I have to ask. Are you still seeing this person?

[Eli Tan]

I am, yeah. We're getting dim sum on this week, actually, and I'm probably going to have to confess while I'm there that the AI came up with that dim sum restaurant.

[Anna Martin]

You know what's striking me about and about this sort of usage of AI and dating, like, the showing of the conversations and asking for advice. I do that literally all of the time with just my friends. Right. Like, I've been talking to this person on and off, and I am basically sending screenshots of our entire conversation from start to finish, sending off, you know, like 65 images to the friend group chat, asking for feedback. Like, this is what I'm doing with my friends. And it strikes me like AI is kind of doing that, but worse.

[Eli Tan]

Possibly. Yeah. I think one alternative way to look at that would be, you know, you can't always berate your friends a dozen times a day sending them screenshots about conversations.

[Anna Martin]

My friends love it.

[Eli Tan]

Your friends love it. Yeah, my friends would probably, I think, get tired eventually if I was like, can you come up with another opener? Okay, what about another? What about another?

[Anna Martin]

I see what you think. Yeah.

[Eli Tan]

If you're trying to use this stuff en masse, the AI might make sense. I actually, at one point, I have a best friend who is very similar to Ethan the wingman kind of in my life. And at one point I was like, oh, I'll send both of them screenshots and kind of see the difference.

[Anna Martin]

Interesting. You put this to the test, like the question I just asked.

[Eli Tan]

I put it to the test with, yeah. My friend in real life, his name's Ryan, but Ryan is not very good at dating apps. So I was like, well, I don't know if any of this advice is going to be really great. Like, I don't have somebody that is like, nails with the advice in real.

[Anna Martin]

Life about this stuff.

[Eli Tan]

I don't have a group chat that can actually give me.

[Anna Martin]

You gotta get yourself a blunt bestie, babe.

[Eli Tan]

I know, I do. I really. I really need that in real life that might help me out.

[Anna Martin]

Are you still using the AI like the Story's published like it came out. Are you still using these AI tools post, publish, or did you like delete the clone apps from your phone the second that you were done with this story?

[Eli Tan]

I have not been using the clone apps. A couple of them actually shut down after I finished reporting just cause they couldn't raise more money or they didn't have very much success.

[Anna Martin]

Cheesy Crunchy was just not making that.

[Eli Tan]

Was a killer for them. Something I still do. I still ask this ChatGPT service sometimes to recommend me date spots or things we can do or activities we can do in certain neighborhoods. Because at this point, the service actually knows me pretty well. We've talked enough about how dates go and a lot of the times it will actually give me really good recommendations.

[Anna Martin]

Well, help me make something of it. Right now it sounds like in some way the clone version of you or the AI tools have kind of embedded themselves into the way that you're using these dating apps. Like, do you think this experience of reporting the story has fundamentally changed the way you're approaching dating in your life and will approach dating for the past?

[Eli Tan]

I think it has. And I think it's changed the way that I kind of see my profile. And when you kind of animate some of the ways that you describe yourself on apps or put them into conversations like, oh, this actually comes off differently than maybe I thought it did, huh? Maybe I will actually not market myself as much of an outdoorsy person because I'm not, or something like that.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah, yeah. After all of this, what is your verdict? Is AI going to fix our dating woes, our app fatigue?

[Eli Tan]

I think my takeaway is less about can AI solve my dating life and more do I want it to? I think there are some things that, yeah, maybe AI can do this, but do I want to be automating out my relationships and my dating and these moments of, you know, first meeting somebody and having meet cutes, like, why would I want a robot to do that? I think that's just something that I kind of want to do myself. And I got so many emails from readers that said, dude, just go. You know, older readers that were 60, 70 years old that were.

[Anna Martin]

What did they say? That's so cute?

[Eli Tan]

They were saying, you know, back in my day, I would just go out and I would just smile at women on the street and if they smiled back, I would go up and talk to them. You should try that. And part of me is thinking like, okay, you know, Glenn, it's not 1970 and times have changed. It's actually not okay to just go out and smile at a bunch of women. We actually have to be more creative and just generally, I think the dating advice of kind of older generations is just so different than kind of the experience. Like, if I talked to my parents about dating, they would give me some advice like, oh, you know, when you're least expecting it, that's when you'll find love. And meanwhile, I'm like, trying to get my clone to date as many people in San Francisco as I can. I'm like, my clone's not really picking up my sense of humor that well. It's like a totally different.

[Anna Martin]

Your mom's like, join a volleyball league. Yeah, my mom. I was talking to her on the phone yesterday. She's like, maybe you should pick up a hobby that men also do, like woodworking. I was like, I'm not talking to you about this. Yeah, I mean, I guess I. To that point, like, okay, so it sounds like you are kind of committed or at least are seeking these kind of moments of serendipity and, you know, connection in. Are there ways that you are trying to cultivate that, you know, off the apps these days?

[Eli Tan]

I am, but it's hard. Well, one you can't schedule serendipity for.

[Anna Martin]

That's true. Wish we could.

[Eli Tan]

It's kind of counteractive. But yeah, I've tried. Like, I think there's like this whole kind of network now of these dating events that you can do because people are so frustrated with apps. They try to get people kind of in person. And I mean, one of them. I tried like one of these singles running clubs once.

[Anna Martin]

Oh, brother.

[Eli Tan]

And I mean, I'm. And I've realized this as we started running. I'm like, I'm not a runner. Like, it's like a five mile run. I am like huffing and puffing. I'm like, I'm just making the good runners look even better because I'm not even trying to talk to someone. I'm just trying to get through this run.

[Anna Martin]

Right, right, right.

[Eli Tan]

So things like that where it's like, okay, you really have to be extroverted, I think to be going to some of these in person events and meeting people through friends of friends or whoever it is is still probably for me the ideal way, but it's just not something that you can schedule kind of plan ahead or try to do a bunch of. It's something that just happens naturally. I would say.

[Anna Martin]

Eli Tan, what a fun conversation. Thank you for joining me on the show today.

[Eli Tan]

Thanks. So much for having me. What fun.

[Anna Martin]

What crunchy, cheesy bliss. We're, like, so grateful that you did this with us.

[Eli Tan]

No, thank you guys for having me on.

[Anna Martin]

This was, oh, my gosh, so much fun. Come back, keep reporting on dating, and then we can keep having you on as a. As a guest.

[Eli Tan]

Okay. That'd be great.

[Anna Martin]

This episode of Modern Love was produced by Davis Land and Emily Lang. It was edited by our executive producer, Jen Poyant. Production management by Christina Josa. The Modern Love theme music is by Dan Powell. Original music by Amen Sahota, Carol Sabaro, Dan Powell and Diane Wong. This episode was mixed by Daniel Ramirez. Studio support from Maddie Masiello and Nick Pittman. Special thanks to Mahima Treblani, Nelga Loughley, Jeffrey Miranda, and Paula Schumann. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones. Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love projects. If you want to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we've got the instructions in our Show Notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.