E. Jean Carroll’s Vibrant Sex Life Ended 30 Years Ago. She Wants It Back.

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Modern Love: “E. Jean Carroll’s Vibrant Sex Life Ended 30 Years Ago. She Wants It Back.”

Air Date: September 3, 2025
Host: Anna Martin (B)
Guest: E. Jean Carroll (C)

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Overview

In this revealing episode of Modern Love, host Anna Martin speaks with journalist, author, and advice columnist E. Jean Carroll about the seismic changes in her experience of sex, love, and intimacy following her alleged sexual assault by Donald Trump in 1996. Carroll reflects on her once vibrant sex life, the trauma’s lifelong aftermath, the “armor” she built to move forward, and her desire—30 years on—to reclaim pleasure and connection. Honest and occasionally laced with Carroll’s signature wit, the episode examines both the cost and meaning of survival, resilience, and self-discovery.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. E. Jean Carroll Before 1996

• Carroll recalls herself as a "young, vibrant woman" in her 50s, thriving in her career with a daily TV show and a popular advice column, Ask E. Jean ([06:14-07:05]).
• She felt "like a million dollars," enjoying late-night talk shows, call-in relationship advice, and lively flings—even with her ex-husband John Johnson and screenwriter William Goldman ([07:05-07:46]).

  “A woman in her 50s is really at a powerful moment… You know more than you’ve ever known in your life. You still look great. Your body looks amazing because you know how to dress it.”
  —E. Jean Carroll ([06:42])

2. The Aftermath of Trauma

• Carroll describes the moments after the assault at Bergdorf's: profound confusion, adrenaline, and immediate coping by calling her friend Lisa Birnbach ([09:18-11:00]).

  “I felt… Have you felt a surge of adrenaline pouring through you? That means my body did exactly what it was meant to do. It got the hell out.”
  —E. Jean Carroll ([10:16])

• Lisa told her, "E. Jean, he raped you," crystallizing the reality ([11:00-11:38]).
• Carroll also shares the familial ethos to "smile and move on," a generational coping mechanism instilled since childhood ([12:10-12:49]).

  “In our family, we smiled. That’s what we did. … No, we all just smile, and we just all move on. We do not complain. It’s genetic. Smile.”
  —E. Jean Carroll ([12:29])

3. Suppressing Pain & Sexuality

• Despite the trauma, Carroll kept giving sex advice in her column—knowing she hadn’t had sex, calling herself “a hypocrite” and “the big fake” ([15:56-16:42]).

  “I knew I was a hypocrite because… why I’m advising people about how to have a good sex life. And I just had a horrible thing. I was able to do it with no qualms because I just really put—that’s how far I put it behind me.”
  —E. Jean Carroll ([15:56])

• She reveals she “never had it again” ([17:22-17:26])—completely ceased both sex and romance for 30 years.

4. Coming Forward & Realizations

• Publishing her 2019 story during #MeToo was pivotal. She mentions a key moment with her editor, Laurie Abraham, who interrogated her matter-of-fact admission of abstinence ([18:05-19:47]).

  “The last sentence was, ‘And I never had sex again.’ …Laurie immediately calls me on the—‘What? You never–what?’…Only one of [my reasons] was the real reason.”
  —E. Jean Carroll ([18:34-18:45]) “Donald Trump. ... The thing that was bad about it was just how much I had missed...how much the erotic anticipation ... all gone, gone.”
  —E. Jean Carroll ([19:03-19:47])

• She mourned not only lost sex but also the anticipation, romance, and “flirtation” that once animated her life ([20:02-20:41]).

• Notable anecdotes: She would deliberately avert her gaze from attractive men, recalling specific near-misses—moments she might have connected but couldn't allow herself to try ([20:41-22:03]).

5. Therapy, Clarity, and Grief

• A legal team-mandated meeting with trauma specialist Dr. Leslie Leibowitz forced Carroll to confront her own suffering ([25:44-26:42]):

  “At first, I thought I was getting away with it...I was so fabulous. About half a day of that, and then conk. ...By the end of it, I had such a stomachache. I was so sick on just what I had lost.”
  —E. Jean Carroll ([25:59-26:42])

• Leibowitz described Carroll’s “involuntary” avoidance of intimacy as a trauma response ([29:10-29:45]).

  “The process by which she avoids engaging with men is automatic, and it illustrates how her traumatic fear triggers involuntary behaviors intended to maintain safety.”
  —Dr. Leslie Leibowitz, read by Anna Martin ([29:13])

• Carroll grieves 30 years lost:

  “Just an old lady who had given up, you know, 30 years of her life. ... Wiped out 30 years of pleasure from her life. ... And here’s the worst part. I couldn’t correct it. And I have been trying.”
  —E. Jean Carroll ([28:11-28:41])

6. Desire and Hope for Renewal

• Carroll expresses, matter-of-factly but wistfully, her hope to break the pattern—to look up, smile, and perhaps even flirt again ([31:13-32:14]).

  “I do. I do. I do. I do. ... I keep an upbeat attitude ... I never stop trying, but I never stopped failing. But you never know.”
  —E. Jean Carroll ([31:13-31:25])

• She laughs about needing “a gun to her back” to make the first move, yet feels hope she might “surprise [herself]” ([31:48-32:11]).
• Carroll voices what many older women might feel: she’s not alone in wanting renewed intimacy, and her friends “hope for the same thing” ([32:28-32:36]).

7. What She Gained

• Despite the loss, Carroll affirms the satisfaction of holding Trump accountable:

  “I beat Donald Trump twice. I am the happiest woman in the United States of America. No one, trust me, no one is happier than I am every single day because I beat Donald Trump twice. Nobody is alive right now that is this happy. So that’s what it’s like beating Donald Trump.”
  —E. Jean Carroll ([33:02-33:29])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On her flourishing pre-assault life:

  “A woman in her 50s is really at a powerful moment.” ([06:42])

• On generational coping:

  “We do not complain. It’s genetic. Smile.” ([12:29])

• On being a ‘hypocrite’ for giving sex advice:

  “There I am. I joined those ranks, the big fake. I know I knew I was faking it, but I thought I was helping people, and I was, so I did it.” ([16:42])

• On realizing the loss:

  “I had wiped out 30 years of pleasure from her life.” ([28:13])

• On hope:

  “I keep an upbeat attitude … I never stop trying, but I never stopped failing. But you never know.” ([31:25])

• On her sense of victory:

  “No one, trust me, no one is happier than I am every single day because I beat Donald Trump twice.” ([33:02-33:29])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:45: Carroll’s public and professional persona, pre-2019
• 06:14–08:46: Her flourishing sex life and ambitions before the assault
• 09:18–11:38: Detailed account of her immediate reaction and coping mechanisms
• 12:10–13:55: Family philosophy of “moving on”
• 15:56–17:26: On feeling like a ‘hypocrite’ and abstaining from sex for three decades
• 18:05–20:41: Realization of what she’d lost post-trauma, prompted by her editor
• 25:44–28:41: Effects of trauma made clear in therapy
• 29:13: Leibowitz’s analysis of Carroll’s trauma response
• 31:13–32:14: Determination and ambivalence about “trying again” at intimacy
• 33:02–33:29: Triumph over Trump

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Episode Tone

• Carroll’s characteristic humor, candor, and resilience are woven throughout, even when describing profound loss and vulnerability.
• The conversation is honest, at times joyful despite the gravity, punctuated with laughter and hope.
• Anna Martin’s questions are gentle but incisive, facilitating a space where pain and ambition for renewal coexist.

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Summary prepared for listeners seeking deep insight into E. Jean Carroll’s story of survival, realization, and the ongoing quest for joy and intimacy.

Transcript

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[B]

When I met Eugene Carroll a few weeks ago, she walked into our studio wearing a blonde wig and a blue flight suit. Carol used to be known primarily as a journalist and a writer and for her very popular advice column in Elle magazine called Ask Eugene. But she stepped into a very different kind of spotlight in 2019. That's when she accused Donald Trump of sexually assaulting her over 20 years earlier in a dressing room at Bergdorf's. First, she published her story in New York Magazine, and then in a book called what Do We Need Men for A Modest Proposal. President Trump denied the accusation. Carol sued. And in the fall of 2022, she walked into a room full of lawyers for a deposition. There were hours of questions, and it was grueling.

[C]

It was grueling.

[B]

But there was this one question that Carol told me she actually enjoyed answering.

[C]

And the question was, I hate to ask you, but big smile, like, you know, oh, boy. Can you tell me who you've slept with? She may have asked right away, how many you've slept. I can't remember which way. And I said, yes. My perk up. Finally, something I love to talk about.

[B]

Wait, pause. And why did that question light you up? Why that reaction?

[C]

Well, I'm like, you don't you love to think about your lovers?

[B]

Some of them. Most of them. Carol says she spent about 25 minutes listing all her past lovers, and she describes it as 25 minutes of bliss.

[C]

Several of them came up. I named my husband John Johnson, the hottest TV anchor. Unbelievable New York anchorman. And just saying his name, it just lit up inside of me, remembering how John. If we had an argument, he would pick me up and carry me outside and throw me into the daylilies.

[B]

And this was a good memory.

[C]

Just enjoy the heck out of me. Damn. That was John Johnson.

[B]

Carol talks about all of this in her latest book, Not My Type, One Woman Versus a President. She describes what it was like to take Trump to court twice. Both civil cases and and what it was like to hear the verdicts. Trump was found liable for sexual abuse and for defamation. But I wanted to talk to Carol about something else that came up in her book.

[C]

I thought chasing men was the highest entertainment there was. The chase is just was essential to my well being. I just loved it. And boy, that was just knocked out of my life. Just knocked out.

[B]

From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is modern Love. In today's episode, I talked to Eugene Carroll about how dramatically her relationship to sex and love changed after that infamous encounter at Bergdorf's. Stay with us.

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Hmm, it's gotta be when I'm really craving it and it's convenient.

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Could you be more specific?

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When it's cravinient.

[C]

Okay.

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Like a freshly baked cookie made with real butter, available right down the street at am pm. Or a savory breakfast sandwich I can grab in just a second at a.m. pM.

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[B]

I wonder if we can go Back to almost 30 years ago to 1996 before your encounter with Donald Trump at Bergdorf's, bringing your mind back there to that place in your life. Can you describe to me who E. Jean Carroll was in 1996. Before this encounter, who were you professionally? Who were you personally? What was happening?

[C]

I was a young, vibrant woman whose career was going very well. I had my own talk show an hour a day.

[B]

Tv.

[C]

Yeah. On Roger Ailes new network. I had an advice column at Elle that was very popular.

[B]

Ask Eugene.

[C]

And I was on top of the world. And I. A woman in her 50s is really at a powerful moment.

[B]

Speak on that.

[C]

Oh, you know, more than you ever known in your life. You still look great. Your body looks amazing because you know how to dress it.

[B]

You figured it out.

[C]

You figured it out.

[B]

I'm 30, but I'm looking forward to 50. Continue. A woman in her 50s, in her power and talk about you specifically, how were you feeling?

[C]

Like a million dollars. I just felt like a million dollars. I just. And I was going to Burgdorf's because I was gonna buy something. I don't remember what it was. I think it was a sale. So I'm on. You know, my.

[B]

It's.

[C]

I was still having sex with John Johnson. Let's. Even though we had divorced.

[B]

A little fling with an ex.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

That was fun. It sounds like.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Was he throwing you in the daylilies anymore or not so much.

[C]

No. Cause we had lived separately. And I was having a fling with William Goldman. The screenwriter. Remember him? Butch Cassidy and the Sundance cat. All the President's men that William Goldman.

[B]

Can I ask you, like, at that time, what did. What did the future look like? What were you looking forward to?

[C]

Brilliant. Brilliant.

[B]

And were you looking for partnership? Or was it sex? Or what were you looking for at that time?

[C]

All of it.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

Just all of it, you know, and not even aware I'm looking. Just enjoying. And also, I was just man crazy, I admit it. Boy crazy.

[B]

If you had to pick, like, what was your favorite thing about your life at the time or your favorite thing about yourself is maybe.

[C]

Well, I love doing the TV show.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Loved going live every night. And I reran at a lot. I just loved it because people called in.

[B]

They called in with relationships problems.

[C]

Yeah, everybody would call. It was a live TV call. I would have guests, they would come in and they would tell me their problems. I, of course, would solve it. We were just in a studio live every day with the calls coming in. No, it was heaven. It was heaven.

[B]

It sounds really, really fun. We're talking about the sort of space and time before you walk into Bergdorf's on that day and you encounter Donald Trump. I'm not gonna ask you to recreate what happened You've told that story over and over, many, many times. What I wanna do, if it feels okay, is talk about the moments after. Back then, like, in the immediate aftermath, what was running through your head?

[C]

Well, it was strange because the lead up to it, we were laughing and joshing. It was very, very, very funny. It was just very funny.

[B]

That's in your testimony. Yeah.

[C]

And then it turned absolutely. Just completely different universe. So the aftermath was very strange because I didn't understand what had happened. I'm laughing one minute and I'm not sure what happened next. See, that's the thing. Although I remember almost every move, but it was very hard to think what. But the mind just goes white and so much energy is pouring through me. I felt. Have you felt a surge of adrenaline pouring through you?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

That is such a good sign. That means my body did exactly what it was meant to do. It got the hell out. I did everything right without knowing what the hell I was doing. So as soon as I came outside, I still had my purse in my hand. So I reached in and pulled out my phone and called Lisa Bernbach.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Your friend Lisa wrote the Preppy handbook. Hilarious. Wrote for Vanity Fair and New York. Hilarious. So I called Lisa, and Lisa, apparently, I don't remember this, told me to stop laughing.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And then she asked what happened. And according to Lisa, according to court transcripts, I kept saying to Lisa, he pulled down my tights. He pulled down my tights. And then Lisa told me, according to court transcript, eugene, he raped you. And that's the moment I heard what happened. I had put it together. And then she said, let's go to the police. It was so horrifying to hear those words. Can you imagine? Would you. After you've been through, would you want to.

[B]

No.

[C]

No. And so I just. I think my car was parked across the street, and I got into it and drove back, went to bed, got up the next day and went to work. I went right on with life. Because it's the old E Gene philosophy is, move on, don't dwell. If you don't dwell, you know your life goes on. Why would you sit and worry about something that's already done and happened? Just move on, babe. Move on.

[B]

Where do you think you learned that? I don't even. That approach, that coping mechanism, I don't know what to call it. But where do you think that. That sort of ethos of pick it up and move on? Where was that from?

[C]

All my brothers and sisters, same thing. Smile. Smile, Eugene. Smile, Candy. Smile. Candy. Barbie. Smile.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, my sister broke her arm, went upstairs, laid down when she was 7. Laid down, didn't say anything.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[C]

Because in our family, we smiled. That's what we did. No, we all just smile, and we just all move on. We do not complain. It's genetic. Smile.

[B]

I mean, it's interesting because you are smiling as you say this, even now. I mean, it's like. But we're talking about the day after this abuse.

[C]

Yeah, I went right on.

[B]

Do you remember?

[C]

That way I didn't have to think about it or deal with it. I'm not gonna deal with that. I'm not. It's just not gonna be in my universe. It's just not gonna. Which we learned is not the way to handle things. Not the way. It was a bad mistake on my part. I did tell Carol Martin, by the way.

[B]

I was gonna say there was one more friend. Why don't we talk about that?

[C]

Yeah, I just see Carol Martin, who was a good friend of mine at. At the network, and I just needed a hug. And that did it. I said. We went to her house and I told her. And of course, Carol said, whatever you do, do not go to the police. He has 200 lawyers, and he will bury you. And that is in court transcripts.

[B]

It's incredibly different advice. These two friends that you told. Lisa, who says, eugene, he raped you.

[C]

Oof. I hate to even hear that.

[B]

I'm sorry.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And Carol, who says, do not do anything.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

How did you. And these are the only two friends that you told them.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

How did you sort of hold those two pieces of advice? How did you decide what option to take?

[C]

Well, Carol, because of course that's what I want to hear. I don't want to. And that way I could really move on full speed ahead and never look back.

[B]

Do you remember a moment where some memory or whatever thought about it came up and you pushed it down? Like, do you. Can you share some.

[C]

Hundreds. Hundreds. I just would bat them away. The visions would come up of the dressing room. Visions? Yeah, there were, you know, flashes. Just the sound. Just the smell, the sound of his breathing, just. And I got very good at pushing away. Just bat it away and just move on. Bat it away. Bat it away.

[B]

Did you ever consider. Did you ever consider going to therapy to talk about it or. That wasn't a thought.

[C]

Yeah, no. And I was surrounded by therapists on the. Roger's network. He had shows devoted to, you know, therapy, et cetera, et cetera. I know as a matter of Fact therapists used to write to ask Eugene.

[B]

Well, I was gonna say, it strikes me that you are in this place where you're dealing with the fallout of this abuse, and you're still doing your hour of answering people's relationship questions a day and giving advice. Did that feel about sex, too? Did that feel different? Did that work? Feel different to you?

[C]

Well, I knew I was a hypocrite because why I'm advising people about how to have a good sex life. And I just had a horrible thing. I was able to do it with no qualms because I just really put. That's how far I put it behind me. Yeah.

[B]

Did you think you'd talk about it ever again?

[C]

Had no intention of ever mentioning that again. Ever, ever.

[B]

You called yourself a hypocrite when you're giving this advice, and that strikes me as a very strong word, and I just want to.

[C]

Oh, I call myself worse.

[B]

Hmm. In that. In the. In. During that time.

[C]

Yeah. Oh, you fake. As I. Writing sex advice for having a great sex life because you felt. I knew. Of course I. I also thought that anybody was giving. Almost everybody in the country at that time were old ladies giving sex alive. And I knew none of them were having sex. I knew it, and there I am. I joined those ranks, the big fake. I know I knew I was faking it, but I thought I was helping people, and I was, so I did it.

[B]

You said you joined those ranks, you'd stop having sex.

[C]

Never had it again.

[B]

In 2019, when the MeToo movement was in full swing, you published your story in New York Magazine, and you wrote that you were assaulted by Donald Trump, and this thing that you'd kept secret for decades was now public. And we mentioned. When we talked before this interview, you mentioned that writing your story down and sharing it with people, and specifically, actually, your editor at New York Magazine, led to a kind of revelation about what this had cost you. Can you tell me about that?

[C]

Yeah. It was Laurie Abraham, your editor at New magazine. She was the editor at New York magazine, went on to become an editor at the Atlantic. Laurie just caught me up. She was astounded because I happened to end the. I described what happened, and I just. As a. Just as a matter of course, the last sentence was, and I never had sex again.

[B]

It's the final line of your New York Magazine piece.

[C]

And I just. Because it was so much a part of my life, but to put it down was amazing for me. And Lori immediately calls me on the. What? You never. What?

[B]

Yeah. Why?

[C]

Then she started Saying why? Why? So I came up with reasons, you know, well, I'm old and. Well, you know, and, oh, well, you know. So only one of them was the real reason.

[B]

And what was that?

[C]

Donald Trump. That was not great. And I really. The thing that was bad about it was just how much I had missed, how much I. How much I was. I didn't. How much the erotic anticipation of, you know, feeling that person again, you know, how you all gone, gone. You know, just cooking dinner with somebody, you know, just walking the dog with somebody. Just. It was all gone. It was just. I had been gone. It's now been gone 30 years.

[B]

So it's not. It's not just. And I put just in scare quotes, because sex is a huge thing. Physical intimacy. It's not just sex. It's romance and romantic relationships in general. You had not had one since.

[C]

No, I didn't even. What's one of the most fun things in the world? Flirting. Right?

[B]

I love it.

[C]

Flirting is just the best.

[B]

It's the best.

[C]

It's. Well, no, let's say the best is sex. Cause that's God's gift. That's God's gift. That is an amazing. Unbelievable. I mean, we were so lucky. Didn't have that. So you'd think I could have a little flirt. But now, see, the flirt would lead to the God's gift. So I just.

[B]

So it was even. Wow. So it was even like a flirtation with a stranger was not possible.

[C]

Not if it was within my age group and a possibility. And I can tell you, I thought of this driving in, huh? This was not long after the incident. I'm walking down Columbus Avenue, and at the time there was an English pub or an Irish pub. I've never forgotten this. And I could hear sounds of celebration coming out. And I'm walking along and this guy comes out. He's short and a little pudgy with a great twinkly face. And he's got a big bottle of champagne. He said, come on in. And our eyes met. And my DNA read his DNA and he was like one of the chaps. Boy, I thought. And I looked down and went right on walking. Getting on an elevator, you know, last year. Handsome man. He's got two coffees in his hand. We're both at the same hotel. And I get on. He is so attractive, so tall. I look down because he's my age group, he's available. He's not. I can't force myself to do it.

[B]

When your editor, Lori Abraham, called you on the phone and was really asking you about that final line. I haven't had sex since. That was the moment that you connected those dots. That was the moment that you were able to sort of look at this in the face or tell me what the revelation was there.

[C]

Well, see, I had. Had known it. Yeah, of course I knew it. Cause I was starting to. Not starting, but I would kick myself realizing I had just passed up somebody who was great.

[B]

So when Laurie called you, your editor called you, it was sort of like a punctuation. It was a moment of reflection.

[C]

Oh. And then, you know Laurie, one of the great editors, she never let go. We had another conversation and another conversation, and she wanted to know what my dreams were like. And. No. No. What my fantasies are like. No. Laurie pursued it. Well, what are your fantasies like, Eugene? What are you doing for. Are you.

[B]

How did you answer that? Were you having fantasies?

[C]

Yeah. No. I had orgasms in my sleep. That's how my body handled this. Because my brain, feeble, you know, nut ball up here, couldn't handle it. But the body knew. Oh, Eugene's asleep. Let's have an orgasm. So I could be honest. When I was writing to my readers about experience.

[B]

Interesting.

[C]

I just kept out that part while I was asleep.

[B]

We'll be back in just a moment. Stay with us.

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[C]

All day, every day.

[B]

New York Times games subscribers get full access to all our games and features. Subscribe [e-mail] games for a special offer. A couple years later, when you're suing Trump, your legal team sends you to see a trauma specialist, Dr. Leslie Leibowitz. What did you expect that conversation to be like?

[C]

I was terrified. Terrified. I'd never been to a therapist.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, and you spoke about how this is a deeply ingrained, almost genetic. Just pick it up and move it on. That must have been really scary to go in to see her.

[C]

At first, I thought I was getting away with it.

[B]

Really?

[C]

Oh, I was fabulous. I was so fabulous. Oh, doctor, I love your jacket. Dr. Lebowitz. Oh, this is. Yeah, about a half a day of that. And then conk. She just started telling stories herself. So then I told a story, and then she told a story, and pretty soon, things are being revealed to me. And, boy, by the end of it, I had such a stomachache. I was so sick. I was so sick on just what I had lost. She was hired to find out if any harm had come to me.

[B]

If you want to share. You say you learned things in that conversation with her. What was revealed to you about yourself or the way you'd been dealing with this? Yeah. What did you learn?

[C]

Well, I learned that I was not fabulous. I was not fabulous.

[B]

What do you mean by that?

[C]

Well, I was being absolved, but I was learning that, yes, I had. I had, which I would. I even hard find it hard to admit here. Yes, I had suffered. So.

[B]

Why do you think that was so difficult to admit? And even now, having.

[C]

Can't do it because I want to. You know, I'll leave here and I'll blast some music as loud as it goes, and I'll drive back up to upstate New York, and I am going to forget this, put way behind me and won't think about it. I just move forward. That's the whole thing. Just moving forward.

[B]

In that session with Dr. Leibowitz, she wasn't. You weren't doing that. You were looking this straight in the face, and the armor of looking away was being stripped. I mean, you were stripping it down. And what was underneath?

[C]

Just an old lady who had given up, you know, 30 years of her life. A dissicated, skinny old lady sitting there in a chair who had wiped out 30 years of pleasure from her life. That's what it was. Stripped herself of all that joy and pleasure. God knows I felt pretty bad about it. And here's the worst part. I couldn't correct it. And I have been trying.

[B]

What do you mean?

[C]

Well, I know what I. Now I know. Now I know I just have to look at a guy and smile, and that would be it. But I can't do it. Maybe I will. Maybe I will. Maybe I will. Maybe I'll do it. Maybe I'll do it.

[B]

I'm gonna read just a short section of what Dr. Liebowitz wrote after meeting you.

[C]

Good. Good.

[B]

She wrote, eugene's efforts to avoid ever being in a similarly dangerous situation have had far reaching consequences for her life, most notably in the area of intimate relationships with men. And she goes on to write, the process by which she avoids engaging with men is automatic, and it illustrates how her traumatic fear triggers involuntary behaviors intended to maintain safety. How did it feel to hear her say that about you?

[C]

Well, I was struck about involuntary. So much of our lives is me breathing here, you breathing, that's all involuntary. So I hadn't realized that these big things were involved in Territory 2, but as soon as she pointed it out, I. Yeah. Boy, we are run by a lot of involuntary systems. A lot.

[B]

Yeah. Well, I'm thinking about how you said in the moments after you were struck by, your body knew exactly what to do, and it was not conscious on your involuntary. And this was another involuntary response.

[C]

Exactly. That's.

[B]

Ultimately. Are you. Are you glad to have that clarity, to have had those.

[C]

Wow. What a question. Am I glad to have it?

[B]

Glad's maybe the wrong word. How does that clarity feel?

[C]

It feels horrible. I don't like the clarity. You know, but if it leads to me obtaining the thing that I have been without and lack and feel horrible that I haven't had it, if it leads to me having might be nice.

[B]

And Eugene, do you want to try to get that?

[C]

I do. I do. I do. I do.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Yeah. So I keep an upbeat attitude about it. Yeah. No, I never stop trying, but I never stopped failing. But you never know.

[B]

And to be clear, like, trying to you looks like if there was sort of handsome man in the elevator of the New York Times building. Can you tell me what trying looks like for you?

[C]

Well, I. Dr. Leslie Leibowitz has laid it out. I am to look up and look in the eye and smile. If I accomplish that, I should push myself to say hello.

[B]

What do you think it would take for you to be able to make that eye contact and smile? Like. Yeah, what do you think it would take?

[C]

I don't know. A gun maybe. Standing behind me with a gun, I might do it then. But no, I just. What I'm hoping for is that I'm going to surprise myself.

[B]

I believe you have a pretty infinite capacity to surprise.

[C]

Okay, good. All right. Well, then maybe I should put myself into situations where there are attractive men.

[B]

Well, do you know where that is? Because I'll follow you there.

[C]

I'd love to have sex again with somebody cute. I've been talking about this with my friends.

[B]

Yeah? What do they say?

[C]

They hope for the same thing.

[B]

No pressure. We. We've spoken a lot about what, you know, loss and things you've missed out on, and maybe it's a little twee, but I'm gonna do it because I'm really curious. Like, the flip side, of course, is what you've gained.

[C]

Oh, yeah, I've gained.

[B]

Can you talk about that?

[C]

I beat Donald Trump twice. I am the happiest woman in the United States of America. No one, trust me, no one is happier than I am every single day because I beat Donald Trump twice. Nobody is alive right now that is this happy. So that's what it's like beating Donald Trump.

[B]

E. Jean Carroll, thank you for coming on the show.

[C]

I loved every minute of it.

[B]

Donald Trump was ordered to pay Eugene Carroll close to $90 million in damages from the two trials. He's appealed both verdicts. He lost one appeal, and the other is still pending. More recently, Trump's legal team argued that presidential immunity requires the claims against him to be dismissed. Carroll's lawyers disagree. The Modern Love team is Amy Pearl, Christina Josa, Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Reeva Goldberg and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Reeva Goldberg with help from Amy Pearl. It was edited by Davis Land, Lynn Levy, Jen Poyant and Larissa Anderson. Our fact checker was Will Peichel. Efim Shapiro was our mix engineer, and we got studio support from Maddie Masiello and Nick Pittman. Our video team is Brooke Minters, Sophie Erickson, Zach Caldwell, Lauren Pruitt and Rachel Wynn. Original music in this episode by Rowan Nemus, Diane Wong and Dan Powell. Dan also composed our theme music. Special thanks to Ben Weiser and Ali Settlemeyer. And thanks, as always, to Mahima Chablani, Jeffrey Miranda and Kathleen o'. Brien. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones. Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, the instructions are in our Show Notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.