Eddie Huang Drops the Tough Guy Act

Summary

Modern Love Podcast — "Eddie Huang Drops the Tough Guy Act"

Host: Anna Martin (The New York Times)
Guest: Eddie Huang
Date: July 1, 2026

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Overview

This episode features Eddie Huang, chef, author, filmmaker, and the voice behind the memoir "Fresh Off the Boat" (and its TV adaptation). Eddie discusses masculinity, vulnerability, and identity as an Asian American man—how his tough exterior was forged through childhood pain and pop culture stereotypes, and how love (especially with his wife, Natasha) helped him move beyond the “tough guy” act. Eddie speaks candidly about his upbringing, the impact of racism, intimacy issues, and the evolution of his personal understanding of manhood.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Roots of "Toughness" & Asian American Masculinity

• Eddie reflects on growing up as the only Asian kid on his block, experiencing racial isolation and bullying from a young age.
  • “I visibly remember I was the only full 100% Asian person on the block.” (05:06)
• Experiences of racial abuse and emasculation deeply impacted his self-perception and sense of masculinity.
  • As a kid, he internalized harmful stereotypes, particularly about Asian men being undesirable to women.
• Turning point: a Little League incident where older kids taunted him racially and physically.
  • “They just ran around me in a circle, throwing sunflower seeds... saying ‘Ching Chong, Eddie Wong sitting on a jumbo gong’ ... and I just ate it.” (05:52)
  • Led to Eddie deciding to fight back, creating a “tough” persona to fend off future pain.

2. The Impact of Pop Culture & Systemic Emasculation

• Eddie references his 2017 NYT op-ed confronting stereotypes about Asian men and dating:
  • “Yet the one joke that still hurts... is that women don’t want Asian men. We just don’t have the ingredients.” (02:39)
• He reflects on how Hollywood (e.g., Long Duk Dong in "Sixteen Candles", Jet Li never getting the girl) perpetuates the perception of the emasculated Asian man.
  • “I realized it wasn’t just a me thing. There was a systemic kind of attack on the Asian male.” (10:28)
• Eddie’s work ("Fresh Off the Boat") is rooted in countering these narratives and offering representation.

3. Early Experiences with Intimacy and Vulnerability

• Eddie shares a story of his first crush in eighth grade, and how fear of rejection (tied closely to racialized self-loathing) led him to never confess his feelings directly.
  • An embarrassing incident: friends wrote a crude, fake love note to his crush, signed as Eddie.
  • “My friends have always been idiots. I’m surrounded by idiots eternally.” (14:59)
• He connects his reticence to express interest or vulnerability in romance to these early experiences and cultural stereotypes.
  • “You could get hurt. You could be made fun of.” (12:20)

4. Family Dynamics and Rejecting Toxic Models

• Eddie’s father was charismatic, successful with women, but also abusive; Eddie intentionally rejected this model.
  • “I just didn’t want to be a man like my dad in romance.” (17:47)
• Despite the tough exterior, Eddie states:
  • “Deep down, I’m just, like, a nice kid, you know?” (18:09)

5. Adult Relationships: The Risk of Openness

• He describes a moment in his thirties when he opened up to a romantic partner about his troubled family history, only for her to question his ability to have a healthy relationship.
  • “That really hurt my feelings, and I really regretted telling that person anything.” (19:51)
• He likens the rejection from vulnerability in adult life to the sting of childhood bullying.
  • “It’s the same feeling I had when those kids were throwing sunflower seeds in my face.” (20:46)
• Despite setbacks, he retained hope and a desire to try again.

6. The New Novel: “Come Undone” and Male Archetypes

• Main character “Hubie” is a self-described “fuckboy”—choosing women he doesn’t respect because they’re “safe.”
  • “He doesn’t like himself. So he chooses people that he likes less than himself.” (26:25)
• Anna and Eddie discuss how Hubie represents the toxic, performative masculinity Eddie saw and enacted earlier in his life.
• Eddie hopes the book is “a mirror being held up” to men, challenging “the classic script of masculinity”—money, sex, emotional distance.
  • “Men are expected to get money and have sex. That is... basic male masculinity.” (29:24)

7. Real-Life Change: Meeting Natasha

• Eddie shares the real and vulnerable story of how he and Natasha connected—first on Raya, then reconnected two years later after she’d ghosted him.
• He admired her audacious confidence when she messaged him again after two years:
  • “I respected it… that was exactly the attraction.” (34:29, 35:06)
• Anna: “Was it a little bit like game recognized game?”
  • Eddie: “Exactly. That’s exactly it.” (35:09)
• When they met to box, they discovered they both had full-back dragon tattoos—an almost-too-perfect sign of synchronicity.

8. Getting Vulnerable with Natasha

• Eddie describes the nerves and risk of sending an emotionally honest email laying out his feelings for Natasha.
• Eddie reading the actual email:
  • "I like you in a genuine, real way… I need to choose to be with people who can be honest and direct and receive my energy. Because it is a lot, but it’s real.” (41:05)
• He forwarded the email to his best friend right after:
  • "I will live with the response. I represented myself in an honest light.” (42:33)
• Natasha’s reply was delayed (the email landed in her spam folder!), but ultimately positive—they both felt the same way.
  • “Just complete levitation of, like, mind, body, spirit. Like, total levitation.” (45:36)

9. Redefining Manhood Through Love and Partnership

• Anna asks if Natasha (and their love) changed Eddie’s understanding of masculinity.
  • “She… redefines for me what it is to be a man… She will show me Keanu Reeves… Keanu Reeves never takes a photo next to a woman… She’s like, ‘That is a man. Be consistent. Be this guy every day.’” (46:36, 47:16)
• True masculinity, for Eddie now: consistency, loyalty, caring, and showing up—not posturing or toughness.
  • “If you care, you’re consistent, you’re loyal, you show up. You’re not punishing people. That, to me, are the traits of a man that is productive.” (48:39)

10. Fatherhood and the Future

• Eddie wants his son, Senna, to know unconditional love—not demands about how to “be a man.”
  • “The one thing I do is I remind him, I say, no matter what, dad loves you. Like, you don’t gotta be anything. You don’t gotta do anything. I love you. You’re the best.” (51:01)
• He hopes to model a version of masculinity for Senna that is self-defined, loving, and not limited by archetypes.
  • “You don’t need to live up to some archetype of man. You don’t even need to look at other men, be you. Who you are is cool.” (51:58)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I am a fake tough guy because I created this version of myself to move through the world when there's danger. And that fake version of me is me being my father.” - Eddie Huang (21:50)
• “Being a man was best expressed by Michael Corleone, where it’s just like—just when I thought I was out, you pull me back in.” (20:57)
• On romantic vulnerability:
  • “You have to make a deal with yourself. At some point. You have to say, these defense mechanisms are not helping me.” (44:39)
• "If you care, you’re consistent, you’re loyal, you show up. You’re not punishing people. That, to me, are the traits of a man that is productive.” (48:39)
• "You don't need to live up to some archetype of man. You don't even need to look at other men, be you. Who you are is cool.” (51:58)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• On early racism and becoming a “tough guy”: 05:04–08:21
• Pop culture's emasculation of Asian men: 09:11–10:27
• First crush, fear of vulnerability: 11:25–15:28
• Family dynamics and rejecting negative models: 16:28–18:09
• Opening up and being hurt in adult relationships: 19:00–20:57
• Creating and discussing “Come Undone” & toxic male archetype: 25:03–31:55
• How Eddie met Natasha and learned to be open: 32:27–41:05
• Eddie reads his vulnerable email to Natasha: 41:05–42:33, reaction and resolution at 45:23
• Redefining manhood with Natasha: 46:36–48:39
• Fatherhood and teaching masculinity to his son: 50:41–52:17

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Tone & Atmosphere

The conversation is candid, self-reflective, humorous, and poignant. Eddie oscillates between self-deprecating wit and sincere vulnerability (“I boxed without my shirt on. I had a full back dragon tattoo. And we were just like, we should date, we should try. We should do this. We're both the same moron.” (36:15)). Anna Martin gently guides Eddie through introspective territory, eliciting both laughter and emotion.

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For Listeners: Why This Episode Matters

Whether you’ve followed Eddie Huang’s career or not, this episode resonates for anyone who’s navigated societal expectations, family legacy, or the daunting prospect of letting down their guard in love. Eddie’s journey from armor to authenticity—and the role of love and partnership in that transformation—is compelling listening for anyone invested in the ever-evolving conversation about masculinity, race, and emotional honesty.

Transcript

[Narrator/Advertiser]

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[Anna Martin]

now and did you fall in love

[Eddie Huang]

last Love was stronger than anything for the love love and I love you more than anything there's to love love

[Anna Martin]

from the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love, and today I'm talking to Eddie Huang. Eddie kind of does it all. He's a chef, he makes movies. He's the author of the memoir Fresh off the Boat, which became a hit TV show. And in Fresh off the Boat, Eddie talks about what it was like for him growing up in America with parents who were Taiwanese Chinese immigrants. It was really hard. Eddie was bullied a lot. He felt lonely and he responded by fighting back. He became a tough kid no one could pick on. And that tough kid grew up into a tough man. Now Eddie has a new book out. It's a novel, but the main character sounds a lot like Eddie. He's a middle aged guy, Asian American, struggling to figure out the kind of man he wants to be, especially when it comes to his relationships with women, which the guy in the book is really, really bad at. Eddie's had to work through a lot of this stuff himself in his own relationships. And I wanted to know, when you've tried so hard for so many years to prove to everyone that you're not weak and and you're not vulnerable, how do you let someone in? Like, what happens when the tough guy meets someone he really likes? Someone he might even love? Eddie Huang, welcome to Modern Love.

[Eddie Huang]

Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm excited for this.

[Anna Martin]

We're excited to have you, Eddie. I want to start this conversation by asking about something I think has been important to you for a long time. Masculinity and Asian Americanness. On that Note, back in 2017, you wrote not Bed for the New York Times about these ideas. I'd love for you to read a part of It. Does that sound okay?

[Eddie Huang]

Yeah, sure.

[Anna Martin]

Okay.

[Eddie Huang]

Every Asian American man knows what the dominant culture has to say about us. We count good, we bow well. We're technologically proficient. We're naturally subordinate. Our male anatomy is the size of a thumb drive and could never in a thousand millenniums be a threat to steal your girl. As a kid, you believe the things you're told about yourself. But as I grew, I started to see things unravel. I wasn't subordinate. I didn't count good. And outside downloading gifs of Daisy Fuentes, I was terrible with computers. Over time, I began to find solidarity with my singularity and difference. Yet the one joke that still hurts, the one stereotyp that I still mistakenly believe at the most inopportune bedroom moments, is that women don't want Asian men. We just don't have the ingredients.

[Anna Martin]

I mean, 2017, almost 10 years ago. But as you read that, I don't know what comes up for you.

[Eddie Huang]

You know, funny enough, I've not seen this since 2017 and like, my right shoulder just started twitching when I was reading it.

[Anna Martin]

Huh. Why?

[Eddie Huang]

And I think that I've gotten past a lot of this. I don't think about it anymore. And like when people tell jokes about like Asian penis size, like, I'll laugh, it's fine, I'm over it, you know, But I think just being transported back to that place, sure, when I was still very bummed out about it, you just remember and, you know, you start to twitch a little bit. It's, you know, as a 44 year old man, you don't love admitting that these things really hurt your feelings. But they did, huh?

[Anna Martin]

I want to go there to that place of let's hurt my feelings. Well, I think we're gonna loop around because there's a beautiful love story, you know, But I want to go there because I'm really interested in your openness to talk about this and I want to sort of take us back. Or take you back to the time when you were sort of actively hurting about this. Right. Can you tell me however far back, you know, this question takes you? Do you remember how you first realized that this was how Asian men were seen by some people? Well,

[Eddie Huang]

from a very, very young age, race was just like an interesting thing, you know, Like I was on my block when I was six. I visibly remember I was the only full 100% Asian person on the block. There was one girl who was half black and half Chinese. We really got along. The other four to five kids on the block were all white kids, and they would just, like, pick on us. And I just. From a very early age, I just understood. I was like, all right, we're weird. We're outside, you're inside. And that's just how this is.

[Anna Martin]

Can you remember a specific moment where you realized I'm on the outside of something?

[Eddie Huang]

Yeah, I mean, like, at the age of six, I already knew, but physically, it started to happen around fourth grade, and I was around 11 years old. It was my birthday. And after Little League, there were like, a couple white kids, and they knew it was my birthday. They knew my parents were late picking me up. I was there by myself, and they just ran around me in a circle, throwing sunflower seeds and whatnot, saying Ching Chong, Eddie Wong sitting on a jumbo gong and, like, peeling their eyes back. And I just ate it. I just ate it. What do you mean?

[Anna Martin]

You just sat there?

[Eddie Huang]

Yeah, yeah, I just sat there and I. And I ate it. And it felt. It felt terrible. And, yeah, it just. That stuff's the worst.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah, I mean, I. I know I was like, we're gonna go there. But it just. I mean, even hearing it, I want to, like, I want to reach out to that 11 year old and be like, damn, it's gonna get better. You're gonna own Bauhaus. You know, like, but. But in that moment, did you contemplate, I don't know, being like, shut up, or was that not. I know this is one instance, but did you consider saying something? Or was it more like, okay, I'm just gonna get through this?

[Eddie Huang]

I wasn't gonna win against three to four other kids. I just didn't say anything. I let it pass over. You know, like, when you're a young boy and you've been shamed like that, it just kind of breaks you. Something breaks and you realize, and it's a really unfortunate realization. People are mean.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah.

[Eddie Huang]

Like, people are mean and they are gonna hurt you. And I think the first instinct at that age, if you're picked on like that and just, like, completely embarrassed, and no parents come to save you, no adults care. Like, there was tons of adults at this little league park. They just let it happen. You know, you learned that you have to protect yourself.

[Anna Martin]

So was that. And thank you for sharing that. I mean, I know it's many years ago, but it clearly is still very present. Like, you can go back there. Was that a turning point for you where you're like, okay, I need to fight back. I need to stand up for myself.

[Eddie Huang]

It was a huge turning Point. And I learned to fight. And it wasn't long after that that somebody pushed me down on the lunch line and called me a chink for the first time. And then that moment became the pilot episode of Fresh off the BO So my way has been to alchemize these feelings and moments and share them in the hopes that, like, future young boys don't do this to each other, and that if it does happen to you, you see a reflection of you that fought back, that did something you're mentioning

[Anna Martin]

that you became a fighter, you decided to fight back.

[Eddie Huang]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

Can you paint me a picture of what that looked like, what that meant?

[Eddie Huang]

I just refused to be picked on anymore. And I could see situations where I would not have the upper hand, and I literally just wouldn't walk into them. You know, I always had a padlock on me. I always had something on me. And it just changed the way that I moved through the world. I mean, I guess I should just say, like, I ended up getting a couple assault charges. I got in trouble. I did sell drugs at one point. And then around the age of 19, there was a book that a professor Jennifer Henton, gave to me. It was very interesting, and it was breaking down how the Asian American male has been emasculated through films, starting with things like Long Duk Dong in Sixteen Candles where he's on a stationary bicycle as a metaphor for sex. And it's very funny, but he, like, never gets the girl in Replacement Killers. Chow Yun Fat never gets with Mira Sorvino in Romeo Must Die. Jet Li saves Aaliyah doesn't get the girl. So it's just like, there was many, many examples where Asian American men were just, like, blocked from intimacy.

[Anna Martin]

Sure.

[Eddie Huang]

I realized it wasn't just a me thing. There was, like, a systemic kind of attack on the Asian male through, like, pop culture and identity. And so, I mean, Fresh off the Boat comes out from that. Like, that is absolutely. The driving force behind Fresh off the Boat is to represent not just Asian American men, but, like, anyone who feels downtrodden and anyone who feels like they're not allowed to be a whole human person in the society that they participate in.

[Anna Martin]

When you were younger, was it, like. Do you remember a specific time where we started off with that op ed about this assumption that Asian men were not wanted by women, wanted for intimacy? How did that play out in your own life when you were a young adult, when you were dating?

[Eddie Huang]

Yeah. So going back to this idea that once I was picked on a lot and people made fun of Me for being Chinese. And then all the, you know, small penis jokes started percolating around, like, fifth grade. I started to approach things with that sense of, like, be careful. Don't get into danger. Don't be vulnerable. Things like that. And I remember I ended up having the biggest crush on this girl in eighth grade. She rode horses and stuff. And she would always wear, like, Ralph Lauren purple Label. And I was like, this is so fly.

[Anna Martin]

And a horse girl. Wow.

[Eddie Huang]

Yeah, horse girl. She looked like, you know, like a Ralph Lauren ad. I was like, oh, my God, this woman is incredible. And she was so smart. Like, she would understand the books we were reading. I didn't really understand the books we were reading in class. And I would never admit I liked anyone.

[Anna Martin]

Why? I mean, you're a kid, so people don't like to do that. But why?

[Eddie Huang]

Yeah. Cause you could get hurt. You know? Like, I would never admit I like somebody because then you could get hurt. You could be made fun of. Right. So I told my best friend, and I was just like, yo, do you think she would want to hang out with me? And he was like, why don't you just ask? I was like, no, no, no, no, no. I can't ask. You just gotta, like, you know, maneuver. You gotta just, like, be in the same spot and, like, maybe we, like, the same thing. And, like, I'm not gonna ask. And it went on for, like, months. I was just obsessed with this girl, but would not, like, go talk to her, you know? Like, I'd freeze up if I, like, ran in her in the hallway. Yeah. And I think, you know, I think my friends in middle school would say I was one of, like, the tougher boys. And, you know, we were the boys that, like, we didn't even eat lunch. We just played basketball during lunch. We were kids.

[Anna Martin]

I know those boys. I was a little bit scared of those boys. Yeah.

[Eddie Huang]

Yeah. We would just play ball. And so one day I come to school, and the principal's like, you need to come to the office right now. I was like, what?

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Huh?

[Eddie Huang]

And he's like, look, I need to tell you what happened. I know it wasn't you. Your friend has already admitted to this. But your friends wrote a letter to this girl saying, I love you and I want to eat your dingleberries. Signed by you.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Oh, my God.

[Eddie Huang]

She turned it in. She knows you did not do this. We know you did not do this. Everyone has admitted to it, but, like, the school knows. And I was like, this is probably the second most embarrassing thing that's Ever happened to me in my life.

[Anna Martin]

Patty, that sucks. I had no idea where that was going. What the heck? Why did your friends do that?

[Eddie Huang]

Yeah, I have no idea.

[Anna Martin]

Your friends wrote this note pretending to be you.

[Eddie Huang]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

Why?

[Eddie Huang]

And even as a kid, I wasn't mad at them.

[Anna Martin]

Sure.

[Eddie Huang]

Cause I think their thing was like, just get it over with, man. You talk about this girl all the time. I remember sleeping over in my friend's crib and he had a bunk bed. I'd be on the top bunk, like, yo, you think I should call her? And he's just like, just call her, man. And so I think they meant well. But also, as boys, you can't. You can't like really do it well. You have to put a dingleberry in there. So they did. They did not know they were going to get in that much trouble. They did not know it would blow up. And then funny enough, like a really nice girl brokered like a movie date with this girl and this girl to go on. And we went. And I did not say one word.

[Anna Martin]

Oh my God.

[Eddie Huang]

Say one word. I just went home. I was so embarrassed.

[Anna Martin]

Okay. This story is endearing. And also that turn with the friends. Oh my God. But the question I'd ask that spurred this. And I hate them for you. I mean, I can't. And was actually dingleberry the word that was used? Yeah.

[Eddie Huang]

I mean, my friends have always been idiots. Like, I'm surrounded by idiots eternally. Like for 8th graders. It's pretty clever.

[Anna Martin]

Totally, totally. But it's interesting because the question that teed up the story is I was sort of like this idea that you weren't wanted. How was that reinforced and in your own life? And is the subtext to that story, like you didn't believe she could want you because of who you were? Is that why that story came up?

[Eddie Huang]

Yes. And I also distinctly remember as that was the first girl I admitted to anybody that I liked. And also my homie that wrote the letter, that was my best. That he was my best friend at the time. I love the guy is a Filipino guy and his older brother had a non Asian girlfriend. And. And they would always be like, eddie, you're fine. See, you know, like he did it,

[Anna Martin]

you know, like he's dating a white girl or a nine year old girl.

[Eddie Huang]

Yeah. And like, it was also just like they could see, I think that my model for romance at home was like, not great. And they didn't understand why I had so much trouble, like in my head, because my friend, he didn't have a problem talking to girls. He'd just go talk to girls. And he's like, I don't know why you're all messed up about this, you know?

[Anna Martin]

Tell me about your model for romance at home. You've written a lot about your parents, your parents home, how volatile it could be. But tell me about that model that you witnessed when you were growing up.

[Eddie Huang]

I really rejected the model of male figure in my house and the romance because, like, my dad is a very smooth dude. And I remember one time even just going back to Taiwan at the age of 12. There was like. Like mid-30s woman that was having tea, and she decided to say to me, you know, your dad was the one.

[Anna Martin]

Whoa.

[Eddie Huang]

He really was the one. Like me, all the girlies, like, we loved your dad. And I was just like, huh?

[Anna Martin]

How did that hit you as a kid?

[Eddie Huang]

I just thought he was a dirtbag.

[Anna Martin]

Oh. I didn't know that that was.

[Eddie Huang]

What a dirt bag.

[Anna Martin]

Okay.

[Eddie Huang]

You know? Cause it's like, I couldn't understand why my mom was mad at him all the time. Because, like, women would call the house and my mom would lose her mind, and I was like, oh, what's going on? And like, around 12, when we went back to Taiwan, that trip was a seminal trip in my life because someone told me my dad was, like, in a gang that protected the neighborhood. These women were like, your dad was the one. And so these pieces of my dad started coming into focus, but I rejected it all. Cause my dad hit my mom. My dad did really bad things, and I just didn't want to be a man like my dad in romance.

[Anna Martin]

Tell me more about that. Tell me the qualities that you. It sounds like you're rejecting this sort of slick, maybe womanizing tendency you were seeing. What were you moving towards? If that's what you wanted not to be, then what did you want to be?

[Eddie Huang]

I always knew who I was. I just knew.

[Anna Martin]

And who were you?

[Eddie Huang]

I'm a nice, sweet kid who just, like, wants to be with one or two other people, like my wife, my son, my best friend or two. You know, I pretended to be bad, and I created, like, this tough exterior because I didn't want to keep getting picked on. But deep down, I'm just like. I'm just like, a nice kid, you know?

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Mm.

[Anna Martin]

I'm curious if, you know, as you were growing up, maybe even after you moved out, was there ever a moment in a relationship with a woman or with a friend where you kind of opened up and almost showed this more sensitive, vulnerable interior but then realized, like, oh, no, I need to be tough. Like, was there a moment where you almost gave someone access, I guess, to that inner part of yourself that you can recall?

[Eddie Huang]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was one relationship where I opened up about, like, my parents and the relationship between my mom and dad. Like, you know, the idea of family came up.

[Anna Martin]

And how old were you in this relationship?

[Eddie Huang]

I was in my 30s. I was in my 30s, and, like, family was on the table, and we were talking about it. It was something I wanted, and I had actually shared with this person everything about my family. And the person actually brought it up and was like, well, I just don't know if you're gonna be great at this because of the family you come from. That really hurt my feelings, and I really regretted telling that person anything.

[Anna Martin]

Was this the first time that you felt like you'd been truly honest about your family, the way you'd grown up with someone you were interested in romantically?

[Eddie Huang]

Yeah, yeah. I. Because this person also had their own issues. So I felt, oh, okay. I could probably tell you mine, and you'll understand because you're not perfect either. And I was just like, I trust you. It's hard to, like, diagnose why you trusted somebody, but I think the fact of the matter is, I trusted this person. So I shared my story, and when the gun kind of got turned back at me, I was pretty flabbergasted. And I would say that, you know, you're a good journalist, because I did not think about it at the time, but it absolutely is the same feeling I had when those kids were throwing, like, sunflower seeds in my face.

[Anna Martin]

I was gonna maybe circ. I mean, it's really painful to be vulnerable and then to be totally shut down. I mean, it. It sounds really hard.

[Eddie Huang]

Yeah. For me, it's like, it really. I really do think being a man was best expressed by Michael Corleone, where it's just like. Just when I thought I was out, you pull me back in, huh? Because I just want to be a nice guy. I want to put my walls down. I want to do everything my therapist tells me to do. And sometimes things happen in your. Just like, here we go again. You know, here come the walls, huh?

[Anna Martin]

Here come the walls. But this. This moment with this person where you feel. You think that you are able to let these walls down, and then, as you say, whoop, I'm pulled right back in to this toughness, this, you know, vigilance. These parts of yourself are perhaps uneasily coexisting. At all times. Right. Like, it feels. Yeah, Go. What were you to say?

[Eddie Huang]

They don't coexist easily. I think that's why I do have, like, trouble. And, like, I think a lot of times, too. Like, I've seen the comments on YouTube for decades where people like, what a fake tough guy. I'm like, I am a fake tough guy because I created this version of myself to move through the world when there's danger. And that fake version of me is me being my father.

[Anna Martin]

Oh, he's in therapy. Oh. He's done a lot.

[Eddie Huang]

I did the work. Like, I see it.

[Anna Martin]

No, and I don't mean that. I mean, I maybe shouldn't have joked about it.

[Eddie Huang]

No, no, no. I think. No, I absolutely think it's true. Like, I didn't understand what I was doing subconsciously, but that is what I was doing.

[Anna Martin]

Wow. Eddie, I'm thinking back to this moment that is really, again, painful is maybe the wrong word. But so intense to me, of you opening up to this woman. Right. You were in a relationship with this woman and her not reacting to your vulnerability in the way you would have wanted and you shutting down after that. Can I ask you, like, did you have this feeling like, well, I'm never doing that again.

[Eddie Huang]

Yeah. Funny enough, no. I was honestly very excited to one day try again. But I was pretty sure I was like, if someone's gonna, like, turn around the thing they shared with you to hurt you, it's like, come on, man.

[Anna Martin]

Sure.

[Eddie Huang]

You know?

[Anna Martin]

Sure.

[Eddie Huang]

That's a tough one to come back from.

[Anna Martin]

We'll be right back.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Spring always feels like a reset. Clearing things out, simplifying what you don't need. Apple Card is built with that same idea in mind. No annual fee, no late fees, and no foreign transaction fees. No fees, period. Get started and apply in the Wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval. Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 17.49% to 27.74% based on creditworthiness rates as of January 1, 2026. Existing customers can view their variable APR in the Wallet app [e-mail] Apple card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch terms and [e-mail]. hey, whatcha doing? Are you doomscrolling other people's vacations? Miami, San Diego. With Expedia, your trip can earn rewards which you can use towards your next eligible stay. Soon, people will doomscroll you. Expedia, the one place you go to go places Terms apply now at McDonald's.

[Eddie Huang]

Get an $8 McChicken or a $9 McDouble FIFA World cup meal. Deal. They come with small fries, a soft drink, four piece McNuggets and one of nine legendary cups at participating McDonald's for a limited time while supplies last.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

All rights reserved.

[Eddie Huang]

2026 McDonald's at FIFA World Cup 20.

[Anna Martin]

I remember when I said we were gonna talk about your new book. We're gonna do that now. It's called Come Undone. It's a novel. The main character, let's start here. His name is Hubie. And I have to tell you, I did not love how he was treating women. I don't think you wanted us to love how he was treating women. Can you. Would you classify Hubie as a fuckboy? I know that's like a very loaded term. Okay. You would?

[Eddie Huang]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

Tell me about his ways. Tell me how he's moving, to use your words.

[Eddie Huang]

So when the book starts, the first woman that Hubie chooses is Samantha. And he chooses her because he finds her choices vulgar.

[Anna Martin]

Huh.

[Eddie Huang]

She has an orange Birkin with Rick and Morty drawn onto the side of it. Feels.

[Anna Martin]

That was so specific. Can I just. In a way that I was like, yeah. But for those who might not understand, what does that telegraph? What does that mean to have an orange Birkin with Rick and Morty drawn on the side?

[Eddie Huang]

It's in poor taste. Like, Hubie sees everything that Samantha does as in poor taste. And what Hubie doesn't realize he's doing and feels is he doesn't like himself. So he chooses people that he likes less than himself.

[Anna Martin]

Huh.

[Eddie Huang]

Because they're safe. They're not gonna hurt him.

[Anna Martin]

Can you give us, like, a snapshot from the book of, like, a moment where Hubie is classic? Like, that shows that in action, a sort of classic Hubie fuckboy moment. Can you describe for us?

[Eddie Huang]

Yeah. In the opening chapter, Hubie is taking Samantha on this, like, Malibu staycation. And he presents it as romantic, even though in his head it's like a quote unquote hoe trip. And when Samantha, meaning, like, they're just

[Anna Martin]

gonna have a lot of sex.

[Eddie Huang]

Yeah. Like, it's just. This is just exercise, right? This is cardio. And when Samantha, God forbid, has an idea that something is going on and wants to know where she stands in the relationship, Hubie completely rejects the conversation. And it's like, why would you have that thought? This is a Malibu staycation. We're going to Nobu for the fourth of July. Like, this is what hoes Do. And it's like, yeah, but you did present this trip to this woman as romantic, and you know it.

[Anna Martin]

I mean, it's bad. No, no, no. And it's. Cause it's like that groan is a groan of recognition. But it is just like, what you're saying is this type of guy that Hub. Someone who wants the benefits of intimacy, physical and emotional, but then at the first blush of someone trying to define something or check in emotionally or connect emotionally, pulls away, right? And it's like, what are you talking about? Like, I never gave you the impression I wanted something like, this is the kind of person that you're describing. Who.

[Eddie Huang]

He's very Drake. Like, yeah, he's very Drizzy Drake. And Hubie also does the things. Like in the book, when Hubie's in his toxic era, he's doing the things that he knows men are supposed to do. And women are supposed to be excited about taking you to Nobu. Yeah, right. You're supposed to be like, I'm excited. Wow, he's taking me to Nobu. This must be serious. But deep down, he's, like, laughing at it. And it's like, you're so stupid for even thinking that this means that. And it's like, it's a dirty game.

[Anna Martin]

Why is he doing that? Why is he choosing to spend so much time with this person who he doesn't respect? Tell me a little bit more about the psychology there.

[Eddie Huang]

Yeah, I'll tell you a lot about the psychology and also why I wrote it is men who move like this can read this book. And it's a mirror being held up to your face.

[Anna Martin]

Huh. Was that your experience, holding up a mirror to your own face, writing it?

[Eddie Huang]

Yes. And to my friends, right? Like, I've had friends that have read it and are like, whoa, okay, not good. I was like, not good. You know, and I'm going to let you into the male brain.

[Anna Martin]

Oh, please.

[Eddie Huang]

I think. I think what you're getting at here is that I do think there are men, and I will just acknowledge myself instead of being like, there are men, not me. I mean, men are expected to get money and have sex. That is like, the core tenets of basic male masculinity. I didn't write the rules. They're the basic rules. New York Times readers should have better rules. Right. But, like, I'll just acknowledge I probably didn't.

[Anna Martin]

Huh. You know, this is the classic script of masculinity.

[Eddie Huang]

Yeah. Classic script of masculinity is you need to be making money. You need to Be successful. And then that success and money should translate into having copious amounts of sex. And I think that a lot of men buy into this and a lot of men are just not big enough and they're not man enough to be like, you know what? I'm good without this. And what I do see, what is very cool is that younger men now, the generation after mine, I know several young guys that are like, I'm celibate right now. There's a guy that works at the restaurant, very attractive. People always want to talk to him. He's celibate right now. And like, I respect that a lot about him. That said, the guy at the restaurant that I know who's doing this and is like being very good is a very attractive guy who's had a lot of sex. So it's just like kind of, you know, we have these models. Then I also have other homies that, you know, they're smashing the dating apps and they're lonely and they're just like, I just, I gotta, I gotta be with somebody, you know, And I don't think it's about shaming people, right? But I think we should all just acknowledge and understand that, like, there are a lot of pressures around performing masculinity and being a man, you know, it's tough, it's tough. I, I can't imagine being like a 21 year old guy right now who's a gooner on the Internet trying to figure this out. Like, it's kind of, it's difficult in any generation to figure out how to be a man is difficult. Not as hard as being a woman. Being a woman is much more difficult. So we should all figure this out as men. But I wrote this character and I wrote this book because I wanted to just open up the conversation of like, we don't need to be doing these things to feel like men.

[Anna Martin]

Huh? You've described this before in various interviews as auto fiction. So I want to ask you about which parts of yourself you're exploring through this book. Like, how much of Hubie is you? Basically, I'm asking Hubie.

[Eddie Huang]

A lot of Hubie is me, except for one central defining factor, which is when I met my wife, I ran towards her.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Aw.

[Eddie Huang]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

Well, I'm thinking, I'm thinking, I'm thinking we just have to get into that story right now. You know, she's your wife. But how did you. And her name is Natasha. This I know. How did you two come together?

[Eddie Huang]

So, funny enough, Natasha had just broken up with somebody and decided to Fire up the Raya app on her phone and. And in her, like, post breakup moment matched with me. And I think we exchanged maybe two or three messages. Then I just didn't hear from her. She ghosted me for two years.

[Anna Martin]

For two years?

[Eddie Huang]

Yeah, for two years. And I mean, when I exchanged one or two messages with her, I was like, oh, I like this slideshow. I like this part. This person's intriguing to me. I remembered her when she messaged me two years later. I was just like, well, I had to laugh. She messaged me and said, so what I'm gonna do here is pretend like I didn't ignore this for two years. Hi, how are you? Welcome back. And I was like, you're worse than me.

[Anna Martin]

Wait, I really like this. Wait, wait. Okay, Can I say too. It's so hard to, like, know from a profile, but what about her? What about her was intriguing such that it seems like you responded to her two years later message. Like, why? What was it about her that made you want to respond? Because honestly, I'd see that and I'd be like, yeah, whatever. Like, it took you two years. Bye.

[Eddie Huang]

Yeah, I saw it as extreme confidence. And, you know, most people in situations, they act in the way they think they're supposed to act. There are a lot of, like, correct answer people in the world. She is. She's. It's in Natasha's answer world, in. In her mind. And I think it's cool. And I thought the audacity to like, hit me back after two years, like, yo, what's up? I was like, you're like the worst dude I know. And it cracked me up.

[Anna Martin]

You respected it?

[Eddie Huang]

I respected it.

[Anna Martin]

I respected it. She comes back after two years and

[Eddie Huang]

is like, oh, can I say this too, Anna? I want to say this. It's just like, for a man who was a fuckboy for many, many years, this is you. Me. You respect someone who punches you in the face. I was like, I deserve this.

[Anna Martin]

It was like penance. You were like, okay, this is not just for Natasha. It's for all the women. I assume you ghosted or left on read and then circled back after two years being like, hi, that's so funny. You were like, was it a little bit like game recognized game, that kind of thing?

[Eddie Huang]

Exactly. That's exactly it. That was exactly the attraction.

[Anna Martin]

Okay, so she hits you up then do you. Then what happens?

[Eddie Huang]

We just started to chit chat and she, I would say, is a witch. Like, she can see what you're saying behind what you're saying. And I feel the thing about her that she saw in me and vice versa was the things we work on in therapy, like the masks and the projections, she could see past all of mine and be like, haha, shut up. You know, like, get that out of here. She was just kind of like throwing them all out of the way. And then I was kind of able to do that with her. And I think she appreciated that because I think tricky, elusive, emotionally unavailable people know that they're doing it and they want to be seen, but they're not gonna show you. They're gonna wait for someone to pull the sword out of stone.

[Anna Martin]

Huh. And wait, are we still in the zone of you guys are just like, messaging or had you met up at this point in your life?

[Eddie Huang]

We were just messaging. I mean, she got like my full natal chart before I even met her.

[Anna Martin]

Well, that's classic. And that's required, actually.

[Eddie Huang]

Then eventually she was like, all right, I'll hang out with you. What are you doing today? And I was like, look, I'm boxing and if you wanna come box, you can box too. And she was like, yeah, I'll come box with you. And then she came in a sports bra and she had a full back dragon tattoo. And I, funny enough, I boxed without my shirt on. I had a full back dragon tattoo. And we were just like, we should date, we should try. We should do this. We're both. We're the same moron.

[Anna Martin]

Whoa. Yeah, whoa. I mean, that's a little on the nose for the universe, don't you think? You both have full back dragon tattoos. It's sort of like, how heavy handed do you need to be? So how do two emotionally unavailable people become available for each other?

[Eddie Huang]

One person just has to go, huh? One person has to chase. And I just had a feeling this would be the last woman I ever chased.

[Anna Martin]

Why? How?

[Eddie Huang]

She was. It. It was just her. Like, I just knew it was her. Like, I had a gut thing. I was like, this woman knows how to push my buttons, how to move me around, but she cares about me. And there's some people who, they can manipulate you and they can move you around, but they do it to your detriment. Natasha would push my buttons and move me around for our benefit.

[Anna Martin]

In order for things to go to the next level, someone has to open up about their feelings. And I'm curious how that went down for the two of you.

[Eddie Huang]

What happened was Natasha, like, sent me a voice note saying, oh, my gosh, there's this guy at Kitsune that, like, just Came out of the bathroom and told me he had deja vu and like, he's meant to be with me. It's so funny, yada yada. And this was maybe like five weeks into talking.

[Anna Martin]

Okay, and how did you feel getting that?

[Eddie Huang]

By that point I was just like, I had a lot of feelings for Natasha. So when she told me that there was another guy that was telling her these things, it just upset me. And I was like, you know what? I don't really like this. And you're welcome.

[Anna Martin]

That's like an understatement.

[Eddie Huang]

Yeah, I was like, you're welcome to talk to whoever, like, this your life. And I'm like, not a possessive person. But. But I. I just told her very straightforward in an email. I sent her an email.

[Anna Martin]

Do you still have the email like you sent to Natasha somewhere?

[Eddie Huang]

I mean, I can grab the book because it's the same email as really the same. You want me to read this email?

[Anna Martin]

Yeah, please.

[Eddie Huang]

Yeah. I'll go get the.2 seconds.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Foreign.

[Anna Martin]

Stay with us.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Spring always feels like a reset, clearing things out, simplifying what you don't need. Apple Card is built with that same idea in mind. No annual fee, no late fees, and no foreign transaction fees. No fees, period. Get started and apply in the Wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval. Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 17.49% to 27.74% based on creditworthiness rates as of January 1, 2026. Existing customers can view their variable APR in the Wallet app [e-mail] Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch terms and more at

[Eddie Huang]

applecard.com now at McDonald's get an $8 McChicken or a $9 McDouble FIFA World cup meal deal. They come with small fries, a soft drink, four piece McNuggets and one of nine legendary cups at participating McDonald's for a limited time while supplies last. All rights reserved. 2026 McDonald's at FIFA World Cup 2026. So funny. I. I cannot find the book in the house, but I will just go into the email.

[Anna Martin]

Yes, that's even better for journalistic purposes. Okay. And thank God for email. How amazing that we have everything documented as a digital footprint.

[Eddie Huang]

It's crazy too to like there's so many to my wife. Oh, man, this is embarrassing stuff.

[Anna Martin]

Oh my God. That is music to my ears. Okay, Eddie, let's set the scene again. So Natasha, who you'd been Seeing for you said five weeks. So a couple weeks sends you this voice note, basically being like someone else is hitting on me and you're feeling all types of ways.

[Eddie Huang]

Yeah, so. So it goes. Hey, I was gonna talk to you in person or call you, but I feel like we do well writing I like you in a genuine, real way. We joke a lot. So I want you to know I'm not kidding when I say I like you. I'm not the best at expressing myself or being direct when it comes to this and have kind of fucked up my life in the areas that matter most by dating people that deflect emotion and make their lives a joke too. This stupid Don Julio tattoo I'm stuck with is the best reminder to me that I need to choose to be with people who can be honest and direct and receive my energy. Because it is a lot, but it's real. Even though it's Mercury retrograde. I felt this way for a while. I don't care what you've done before or who's in your favorites folder or who this dude at Kitsune is, and I'm not going to change my mind in a year or two or whatever. I think you're the best.

[Anna Martin]

How did that feel to send?

[Eddie Huang]

Oh, terrible. And funny enough, I'm looking at this and like three minutes after I send it, I've forwarded it to my best friend with the sentence, I will live with the response. I represented myself in an honest light.

[Anna Martin]

So cute. I will live with the response. I represented myself in an honest light. Oh, I am so endeared by this on many levels. Because you're opening yourself up in a genuine way to rejection. You're not. This, to me, is not a tough guy move. This is saying, hi, I like you, and also doing some very serious reflecting on the ways that you'd messed up previously. Like, this, to me, feels like a big change from. And I'm loving hearing you're a Natasha's son, Senna, because it foreshadows what we're going to talk about. But. But why were you ready to open up in this way?

[Eddie Huang]

I had gotten to the age and understood that life offers you opportunities, but if you don't step into them and you're not honest and you don't say what needs to be said in those moments, like your life could fall apart.

[Anna Martin]

You send this email and I'm loving that addendum you send to your best friend. Like, I stand by what I said. You know, like, it's so cute. Okay. And then are you like checking your phone every two seconds for a response, obviously. Get any work done that day?

[Eddie Huang]

I remember my neck and shoulders just being tight.

[Anna Martin]

Totally. Oh, God. Yeah.

[Eddie Huang]

That weeding cortisol going crazy. I. Unfortunately, I don't recommend this. I just hit my ball crazy. Like, I smoked an inordinate amount of weed and just paced and walked around the neighborhood and did physical activities, went to the boxing gym. I mean, she didn't respond for multiple days.

[Anna Martin]

And. Okay, how did that hit you? Did the walls. I'm thinking about that moment with that person where your walls came back up when they didn't respond to you opening up. Did you feel like that was happening again? Was it like, okay, well, I tried to be vulnerable. I laid my heart on the line. No response back up. Like, was that the impulse for you?

[Eddie Huang]

I will honestly say no. And I think that is the work that I was doing was, you have to make a deal with yourself. At some point. You have to say, these defense mechanisms are not helping me. They're not making my life better, and I need to stop doing it. Almost like an addict, I had to tell myself, the wall's coming up. That's not going to help you. Running away, pretending you don't care about this woman, that's not going to help you. And then she just called me. She called me and was like, hey, you're totally not going to believe me. I just read your email. It was in my spam folder.

[Anna Martin]

Oh, my God.

[Eddie Huang]

And she just told me. She's like, I never check my spam folder. I don't know why it's there, but I read it and I will just tell you, I feel similar things.

[Anna Martin]

Wow. How were you feeling when she confirmed that she was feeling the same way?

[Eddie Huang]

Just complete levitation of, like, mind, body, spirit. Like, total levitation. And just. You knew how hard it would be to find your person and for them to feel the same way about you. But you believed. I believed. I took a chance. I told this woman how I felt, knowing it could have gone bad, but I believed. I believed that the things I was feeling were real and that I'm not a moron. And I've never looked back.

[Anna Martin]

Huh?

[Eddie Huang]

I've never looked back. I've always known, even at our lowest times, this is my person. This is the love of my life. Like, I don't know what I would do without her.

[Anna Martin]

Does loving and being loved my Natasha? Does your relationship? Has it given you a new understanding of what it means to be a man? That's where we started our conversation. I'm curious if you have any reflections from your vantage point now.

[Eddie Huang]

Absolutely. She on, I would say, a monthly basis, redefines for me what it is to be a man. Like, don't do this. You know, like, don't get caught in that photo. You know, like, she will show me Keanu Reeves. She's like, look at Keanu Reeves. Keanu Reeves never takes a photo next to a woman. There's always a gap. There's a photo gap between Keanu Reeves and any woman that is not Keanu Reeves woman. Interesting. She's like, that is a man. Very practical. She's like, that is a man. What you're doing in these photos, Eddie, not manly behavior.

[Anna Martin]

Okay. Interesting. That is very specific. And I'm loving Keanu Reeves as the. The model of masculinity. I think that's something I can get behind.

[Eddie Huang]

That is a joke, but it's also real. You, like, see the truth behind that, right? Because, like, so let me. Let me break that down, because it is a joke. But I did mean this literally. Is like, as a man, get rid of your toxic behaviors. Get rid of your bad habits. You know, like, remember, if I matter this much to you, if I am your person and I have changed your life and made it better, as you say, be consistent. And that is her message to me all the time.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah.

[Eddie Huang]

She's like, be consistent. Be this guy every day. And I get it, because she knows I wasn't shit before.

[Anna Martin]

Wow. I mean, you're talking about how, in a really significant way, your understanding of what it means to be a man and a man in a relationship has changed. And I've had conversations with men about masculinity on the show before and how to step into masculinity without. And everything that's supposed to mean to, like, live out masculinity without becoming toxic or misogynistic. I don't know. How are you preventing the swing into toxicity when you step into masculinity?

[Eddie Huang]

Yeah. I will say, I think that my understanding of masculinity was completely incorrect. You know, I created that mask and alter ego that was very much like my father, who is slick and elusive and very tough. That isn't what I see as masculinity anymore. If you care, you're consistent, you're loyal, you show up. You're not punishing people. That, to me, are the traits of a man. That is productive.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah, that does feel very different. I mean, very, like, palpably different from where you sort of began with your ideas of masculinity. I mean, it is also interesting. You're tracing a change in your understanding, a transformation. Like, in doing our research for this interview, I came across. There was criticism, you know, years ago of this sort of tough guy exterior, that you had this idea of masculinity that some people felt like sort of punch down. Right. Like put other people down in order to make yourself to put yourself up. And it's sounding like. It's sounding like that's not the place you're in right now.

[Eddie Huang]

Yeah. And I definitely am now aware that's what I was doing, and it was unnecessary, and I don't participate in that anymore. And I'd rather lift people up that I care about.

[Anna Martin]

Hmm. We've been talking about ideas of masculinity, what it means to be a man, what we inherit from our parents, what we figure out on our own. And I want to know, like, as you raise Senna, what feels important to you to teach him, to show him about what it means to. To be a man.

[Eddie Huang]

You know, it's interesting you ask this, because I did make a conscious choice when he was born. You know, with a son especially, they don't have a relationship with the father like, that early on, they really want Mommy. Yeah, right. I kind of waited my turn to, like, be in Senna's life, and it was around, like, the sixth month, he really started to open up to me and wanted to hang out. And, I mean, he's still like a baby. Blah. But once he could talk. Once he could talk and he could understand, the one thing I do is I remind him, I say, no matter what, dad loves you. Like, you don't gotta be anything. You don't gotta do anything. I love you. You're the best. And that's the choice I've made as a father, is to not demand that he's anything. Like, there isn't a way to be, like, you know, you're going to be this type of man. You're going to be this type of person. I'm just like, you're just you. And whatever you choose to be, I respect that choice. And I love you. And I think that, to me, is a version of masculinity that I would love for him and other men. It's just, I love you, man. You know? Like, you don't need to live up to some archetype of man. You don't even need to look at other men, be you. Who you are is cool.

[Anna Martin]

Eddie, thank you so much for this conversation. I really appreciate it.

[Eddie Huang]

Thank you. It was great. I really enjoyed this.

[Anna Martin]

The Modern Love team is Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Lynn Levy, Reva Goldberg and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Reva Goldberg. It was edited by Lynn Levy and Davis Land. Our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez. Original music in this episode by Alicia Be Itup, Aman Sahota, Diane Wong and Marian Lozano. Dan Powell composed our theme music. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones and Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we've got the instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Hey, whatcha doin'? Are you doomscrolling other people's vacations? Miami, San Diego. With Expedia, your trip can earn rewards which you can use towards your next eligible stay. Soon people will doomscroll you. Expedia the one place you go to go places terms apply.