For Her 70th Birthday, She Hired an Escort

Summary

Modern Love – Episode Summary

Podcast: Modern Love, The New York Times
Host: Anna Martin
Episode Title: For Her 70th Birthday, She Hired an Escort
Date: October 1, 2025
Guest: Gail Rice, Writer and Therapist

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Episode Overview

In this candid and insightful episode, host Anna Martin sits down with writer and therapist Gail Rice to discuss her unconventional 70th birthday celebration—hiring a male escort for an erotic experience. The conversation navigates themes of aging, desire, autonomy, disappointment, self-discovery, and the complexities of seeking pleasure later in life. Gail’s honesty and humor make for a conversation that's both raw and empowering, challenging stereotypes about older women's sexuality and the expectations placed on intimate experiences.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Facing the Fear of Aging and Fading Away

• Gail describes how the existential dread of turning 70 motivated her to seek something that would make her feel alive in her body.
  • “It was a sense of time running out. I lead a very sort of full, happy life, but I felt I could feel it ending.” (05:09)
• Seeking a "body jump"—something to wake up her senses—became her goal.
  • “How can I get my heart jumping? My battery needed a jolt.” (05:51–06:02)

2. The Dating App Experience and Turning Toward an Escort

• Gail quit dating apps at 65 due to frustration with men her age, feeling disengaged:
  • “Can they walk around the block? ... Do they at least show some capacity to pay for the drink or the coffee? ... Very low bar.” (07:13–07:42)
• Anna connects, sharing similar frustrations, revealing the universality of such experiences.

3. The Search for the Right Escort

• Initial online searches surfaced mostly much younger men who didn't appeal.
• Gail sought someone closer to her age, conveying the importance of psychological safety and maturity.
  • She landed on “Mitch” (name changed), whose website and video presentation made him seem warm and trustworthy.

4. The First Experience: Discomfort, Disappointment, and Self-Doubt

• Gail describes her anticipation, nerves, and awkwardness upon meeting Mitch—beginning with a transactional elevator ride that shattered any fantasy.
  • “That journey up the elevator just felt like, what am I doing in this elevator with this stranger? And we are talking about the weather.” (13:13)
• Instead of intimacy, they spent almost an hour in an interview-like conversation.
  • “What I felt was, fuck, I’ve just spent $550 interviewing this guy.” (16:03)
• The encounter moves to an awkward and unsatisfying physical interaction. Mitch failed to take charge or make her feel desired; the massage was “not even a good massage... it was like someone was patting my tummy and my arms with a bit of oil.” (19:14–20:16)
• Emotional aftermath: Gail cycles through self-blame, anger, and eventually, assertion.

Quote Highlight:

“I wanted someone for once in my life to give me pleasure without me having to… be the nice girl… be the person that's always concerned about how he feels. I wanted to have it all about me, which is what I thought I was buying.” (21:25)

5. Confrontation, Reflection, and Refund

• Gail speaks up to the escort mid-session: “This isn’t working.” (22:32)
• She writes Mitch a frank letter, comparing their respective roles as service professionals meeting people’s intimate needs, and expressing her disappointment.
• Mitch responds with empathy and a full refund, which gives Gail closure and a sense of vindication, though also sadness for both parties.

6. Public Response and Renewed Determination

• After her essay is published, she receives both supportive messages and offensive comments, especially from men criticizing her age and the situation:
  • “What did you expect? The poor guy, look what he had to work with – a post-menopausal woman. You've got to be kidding. Get a dog.” (29:12)
• These comments rekindle Gail’s determination to keep advocating for her right to pleasure and further her journey.

7. Second Escort Experience: Growth and Satisfaction

• Guided by advice from female readers, Gail is referred to a highly recommended escort, "Chris," whose policy is “I guarantee satisfaction. I don’t take payment until after the fact.” (30:08)
• She approaches the encounter with more self-awareness, preparation, and with explicit intent not to take control.
  • “The key difference for me was I did not interview him... I just let him take charge, even with the conversation.” (31:54)
• Chris provides a competent, attentive experience; she feels present, safe, and ultimately achieves what she set out to do: “Long story short, I got two orgasms.” (33:40)
• The transaction is positive, empowering, and leaves her feeling revitalized:
  • “I came out of that feeling like I am a sensual, sexual person at 70... that gives me energy.” (34:27–35:00)
  • “I got the jump... I got what I wanted, and I was right.” (34:27)

8. Looking Forward: Autonomy, Pleasure, and New Possibilities

• Gail vows to keep novelty and excitement in her journey: “If I’m gonna do it again, it has to be new and exciting... a new person, a new hotel, a new jump.” (37:52)
• She expresses interest in possibly hiring a woman next time—or trying a new adventure.
• The conversation ends on a high note of empowerment and anticipation for continued growth and adventure—physical and emotional.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On aging:
  “It was a sense of time running out… I needed something I was kind of scared of because I was scared of turning [70]… I needed a body jump…”
  – Gail Rice (05:09–05:51)

• On being let down by dating:
  “I've got three things now I look for in men. Can they walk around the block? ... Have they asked me anything about myself? ... Do they… show some capacity to pay?”
  – Gail Rice (07:11–07:42)

• On the failed first experience:
  “Fuck, I’ve just spent $550 interviewing this guy.”
  – Gail Rice (16:03)

  “I wanted someone for once in my life to give me pleasure without me having to… be the nice girl… be the person that's always concerned about how he feels.”
  – Gail Rice (21:25)

• After asserting her needs:
  “This is my birthday. This is the gift, really. My voice. I just got my voice. I got her loud and clear.”
  – Gail Rice (24:32–24:42)

• Second try and triumph:
  “Long story short, I got two orgasms.”
  – Gail Rice (33:40)

  “I felt very proud of myself… I came out of that feeling like I am a sensual, sexual person at 70… that gives me energy.”
  – Gail Rice (34:27–35:00)

• On the years ahead:
  “I want to die knowing that I did everything I could do to keep myself alive and alert in the time I've got… I don't want [old protections] in the next 20 years.”
  – Gail Rice (36:44–37:20)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 04:20 – Motivations for hiring an escort; existential dread about turning 70
• 07:02 – Disappointment with dating apps and low standards for dating
• 09:25 – How she searched for an escort and what she was looking for
• 13:13 – Awkward hotel meetup and realizing the reality isn’t sexy
• 16:03 – Realization of wasted money on an interview, not an intimate experience
• 20:16 – Description of the un-erotic massage
• 22:32 – Gail finally asserts herself, admits it isn’t working
• 24:32 – Finding her voice after the failed night
• 30:08 – Finding the second escort through a recommendation from another woman
• 31:54 – New approach: giving up control, letting the escort lead
• 33:40 – Success: “I got two orgasms”
• 35:00 – Reflections on pride and rediscovering sensuality
• 36:44 – Looking ahead: “I want to die knowing that I did everything I could…”
• 37:52 – Commitment to seeking new experiences and adventure

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Episode Tone and Takeaway

The episode is frank, relatable, and laced with humor, candor, and a hard-won sense of optimism. It celebrates sexual agency at any age and spotlights the importance of advocating for oneself, learning from disappointment, and never settling for less than one seeks. Gail’s willingness to reflect, try again, and share her journey will resonate deeply with anyone who’s navigated the choppy, often unsatisfying waters of love and desire, especially when society tells you it’s too late.

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For readers interested in more, the essay that inspired this conversation is linked in the episode’s show notes.

Transcript

[Commercial Announcer]

Wednesday's the Golden Bachelor is back. 66 year old Mel Owens, father of two and former NFL star, is looking for his second chance at love. And this season's women are in a league of their own. Ranging from 59 to 77, these intelligent, beautiful and fearless women are hoping to make a connection and show Mel that age is just a number. You're never too old to fall in love. The Golden Bachelor Wednesdays at 9, 8 Central on ABC and stream next day on Hulu.

[Anna Martin]

Hey everyone, it's Anna. I'm just popping in at the top of this episode to make sure you know about some special stuff that's only available to New York Times subscribers. As you know, hopefully by now, every Wednesday we publish a new episode of Modern Love that anyone can listen to from anywhere. And we're going to keep doing that. But only subscribers have access to the bonus content we publish on Fridays. Every Friday, you can start your weekend by listening to the latest Modern Love column read aloud. Subscribers also have access to the full back catalog of Modern Love episodes. If you're not already a subscriber, we hope you'll consider becoming one, not just to get access to more Modern Love, but as a way of supporting the journalism that powers the whole New York Times newsroom. To learn more, you can go to nytimes.com podcasts or you can subscribe directly from Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Okay, here's the show. As always, thanks for listening. Love now and did you fall in love?

[Gail Rice]

Last love, but stronger than anything. And I love you more than anything. There's to love.

[Anna Martin]

Love from the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love. Today I'm talking to writer and therapist Gail Rice. When Gail was about to turn 70, she realized what she really wanted for her 70th birthday was was an orgasm. So she decided to hire an escort. And when I heard about this, I had approximately a million questions for Gail, which she was kind enough to answer for me in detail. But look, knowing what she wanted was one thing. Figuring out how to get it was another. We talked all about it. Stay with us.

[Commercial Announcer]

Wednesday's the Golden Bachelor is back. 66 year old Mel Owens, father of two and former NFL star, is looking for his second chance at love. And this season's women are in a league of their own. Ranging from 59 to 77, these intelligent, beautiful and fearless women are hoping to make a connection and show Mel that age is just a number. You're never too old to fall in love. The Golden Bachelor Wednesdays at 9, 8 Central on ABC and stream next day on Hulu.

[Commercial Narrator]

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[Anna Martin]

A warm dinner, a full table, peace of mind for every family. That's the holiday we all wish for. Your donation to Feeding America helps make it possible not just for one family, but for communities everywhere. Because when we act together, hope grows. Give now and your impact may be doubled. Visit feedingamerica.org Holiday brought to you by Feeding America and the Ad Council. All right, Gail.

[Gail Rice]

Yes.

[Anna Martin]

We are here to talk about an essay you publish in a substack called Oldster. And the title of this essay is an amazing one. This is the title. For my 70th birthday, I hired and Escort. That is a splashy headline. And I have to know just straight off the bat, where did that idea come from?

[Gail Rice]

Well, the idea came from sort of an existential dread of turning 70 is where it came from. It felt quite scary for me and I was really feeling frightened of sort of just fading away. So I thought I needed something, I've gotta do something really exciting for my birthday. So I did a few things. I planned a few trips and did that, but it still didn't feel enough. So I thought of jumping over a plane because I've often thought of doing that.

[Anna Martin]

Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. You can't say jumping out of a plane and that kind of toss up, you know, I planned a few trips and then I also jumped out of a plane. And I actually want to go back even before we get into the plane of it all and say, you're talking about a fear of turning 70. Can you talk more about that?

[Gail Rice]

Well, I think it was a sense of time running out. I think it was really, I lead a very sort of full, happy life, but I felt I could feel it ending. I guess that's what it was. I think I was thinking, wow, 20 years ago, I was 50, 20 years going ahead. I'm 90.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah.

[Gail Rice]

And it scared me. It scared me alive, really. It felt like I needed something I was kind of scared of because I was scared of turning. I felt in a way I had to counter it by doing something I'M scared of to wake myself up. It's hard to explain, but I needed a body jump. But it could have happened jumping out of a plane.

[Anna Martin]

Tell me what you mean by body jump.

[Gail Rice]

Well, I needed to feel alive in my body. Like, how can I get my heart jumping?

[Anna Martin]

You needed a jolt. My battery needed a jolt.

[Gail Rice]

Yeah, my battery needed a jolt. And if it was gonna be alive and alert in the next 20 years, I needed to get it going.

[Anna Martin]

Now, when you think of something to get your heart pumping, honestly, the first thing I think about is jumping out of a plane. Absolutely. But the escort does not track for me as much. What were you fearful of with the escort?

[Gail Rice]

I just think something happened when I started thinking about getting my body going.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah.

[Gail Rice]

That made me realize I had. I stopped dating apps at about 65.

[Anna Martin]

Okay.

[Gail Rice]

So I hadn't been dating and hadn't had any relationships since then. No. No connection with anyone. And I think may something quite unconscious happened when I thought of being strapped to the guy in the parachute, I think something happened that said, oh, maybe there's another way I can get connected to somebody. And I just slipped into that.

[Anna Martin]

You say you stopped dating apps at 65. Why did you stop?

[Gail Rice]

Well, because basically, I was frustrated, disappointed, fed up with meeting men. I got to a point where I said to a friend, I've got three things now I look for in men. Can they walk around the block? Can they do that? Have they asked me anything about myself?

[Anna Martin]

Yep.

[Gail Rice]

Anything?

[Anna Martin]

Yep.

[Gail Rice]

Low bar. Very low bar.

[Anna Martin]

Listen, I have the same bar, but please continue. Yes.

[Gail Rice]

And the third one was, do they at least show some capacity to pay for the drink or the coffee? I don't need them to pay for it.

[Anna Martin]

Do they just show capacity? Like, do they have a wallet?

[Gail Rice]

Yeah. So, yeah, it was a lot of work for little return. I wasn't even sure why I was doing it anymore.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah. Gayle, listen, I cannot tell you how closely that tracks with my experience on the apps as someone in my early 30s. So, you know, interpret that how you will. You're a therapist, correct?

[Gail Rice]

I'm a therapist, and I hear that. And that's the other reason I got out. I know whether you're 20, 30, or 40 women, this is what's happening.

[Anna Martin]

Can I ask you, too, on that list of, you know, he should be able to walk. He should ask you questions. He should at least have the capacity to pay. Was a fourth. Like, he can pleasure me. He can give me an orgasm, or did you not even get that far?

[Gail Rice]

Well, yeah, it wasn't Even the orgasm, I think it was. Yeah. Can he? Well, first of all, they weren't very attractive, these men, because they're old. And, you know, I look at myself, I'm old too. But it's sort of. No, it didn't even go that far, Anna. It sort of. It was so. It felt so remote.

[Anna Martin]

You're talking about the feeling of going on these dates. You felt very removed. Right. Sort of maybe not embodied on the. And so you stopped, you know, engaging with the apps. And then it makes sense to me that for this big birthday, you're really thinking about something in your words to sort of jolt you into your body. Right. To make things feel less remote, to make them feel immediate. So I do understand how you arrived at googling male escorts. And now we gotta talk about that. How do you find an escort? Do you just Google male escort near me?

[Gail Rice]

Yes. Yeah, yeah. And what I realized very quickly was, you know, they all. They all were the age of my grandchild and they were all the same kind of model of. Here's my bare chest. Here's me with hardly, you know, hardly any underwear on. Here's me sitting this way, that way. Here's me as a sexual. Here's me as a sexual object. And I thought, oh, no, this is. I'm in the wrong. I'm in the wrong pond. So then I started looking for sexual escorts that cost over. So I started to realize, looked at the cost. So it became the higher up I got, the less pecs I got, the less bums I got. And what I got was, you know, people that looked like they had a life. And I tend. Then it also were a few more people that were in their 40s. So it worked for me because I got a slightly older group and I got people with their clothes on. So when I finally honed in, there weren't many. There were a couple. And I really quickly honed into Mitch because couple things. First of all, his photos, but then he also had a video of him speaking. Oh, yeah. And just talking about how women, like men, have needs that aren't met in normal relationships. And it was a very kind of psychologically reassuring chat he was having.

[Anna Martin]

And this person, Mitch, the names in the story have been changed, by the way. Mitch was the escort he kind of finally zeroed in on. Right?

[Gail Rice]

That's right. So I felt really reassured and I told him I was anxious about being 70. I told him I wanted an orgasm. I told him I wanted an erotic massage. He said, absolutely, no problem. Easy peasy.

[Anna Martin]

Wait, Gayle. You told him that you were nervous to turn 70. That feels pretty emotionally intimate. I don't know.

[Gail Rice]

Well, he was very. But he was very much like that. He was. You know, I said to him he'd make good psychologists. Cause he had a way about him that was very warm. And he seems to be a man with a lot of integrity. And he really wanted this. He heard me. He said, I understand that, and you're being very clear, and I appreciate that. So it should be no problem.

[Anna Martin]

How much was it?

[Gail Rice]

Well, it was $550 an hour, and you had to get three hours.

[Anna Martin]

Oh, wow. Okay. So this was on the higher end?

[Gail Rice]

Yes, well, as I find out, this higher. But yeah, this was higher end and extravagant because, like, for me, I'd rather. You know, I'd rather get a plane ticket for that. I mean, it was a lot of money, so. Yeah, so it was a big investment. And again, I don't know. See, I think I was in such a space with this 70 thing. It felt like, you know, my life depends on this battery junk. And if this is what it's gonna cost, this is what I do.

[Anna Martin]

You paid the money to Mitch?

[Gail Rice]

Yep.

[Anna Martin]

And then the night comes.

[Gail Rice]

Yes.

[Anna Martin]

How were you feeling?

[Gail Rice]

Look, I was really nervous going in. It was the evening of my birthday. So the next day is my birthday. So I was gonna be waking up in the hotel on my birthday.

[Anna Martin]

Oh, my gosh. Great planning. Okay, copy that.

[Gail Rice]

Okay, so, yeah, I was very ner.

[Anna Martin]

You've never done anything like this before, right? No.

[Gail Rice]

I don't know anybody who's done it. I don't know what I'm doing. And I guess the other thing, I was a bit shocked because I had this image of, oh, you know, I've got the champagne on the ice, and I've got this lovely bedroom, and he's gonna knock at the door and come in and no, you have to meet them in the lobby. So I thought, oh, so that's pretty. Not sexy. So I go into the lobby, and he looks exactly like what he did in the picture. And. But it just feels so weird. He comes over and I think he kissed me on the cheek or something. And that journey up the elevator just felt like, what am I doing in this elevator with this stranger? And we are talking about the weather, and it's so. So I'd lost any sense that it had in the hotel room with the champagne and the view. So then it was like this very uncomfortable entry in.

[Anna Martin]

Okay, so you're in the elevator with Mitch, meeting him for the first time talking about the butler. Tell me what happens next.

[Gail Rice]

So then we get to the door and I mean, I guess I'm so grateful for the champagne. Cause I sort of knew I had that to lean into. Then what happens? And this is where it went off the rails. So I go into my Uber interviewing mode. Oh, tell me about yourself. I heard all about his marketing job and how he quit marketing. Cause he saw this as a niche market and he liked having sex. And then I heard all about what it's like to be an escort. And so asking him about the kind of women that came to see him.

[Anna Martin]

And you're basically treating him like a client for therapy.

[Gail Rice]

Well, almost worse than that. It felt like I was interviewing him for the, you know, the paper felt like so. And he was enjoying it. And he look, he's a really nice guy, interesting guy. And he was saying. So I asked the kind of women who come to see him and he says, well, they normally go into two groups. So there's the women in about their 30s that are just looking for hot sex. And then there's the women probably over 50s who have been divorced or their husband died and they're looking for a boyfriend experience. And I said, at that point, I said, well, I don't really fit into those categories.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah, I'm looking for an orgasm.

[Gail Rice]

Yeah, I'm looking for an orgasm. And he said, oh yes, yes, I know that. So I don't know. We kept talking and then I. And there was this big clock. There's this huge tower clock outside the window. And I looked up and I was shocked. Like nearly an hour had gone by. Yeah, I'm one of three. I looked up.

[Anna Martin]

Oh gosh.

[Gail Rice]

And I felt this. And what I felt was, fuck, I've just spent $550 interviewing this guy. And I felt kind of a bit of rage. So I, so I said to him, well, what do we do now? I sort of just. What do we. And by the way, Anna, there was no physical touch? Nothing I was going to ask. No, nothing. Not a touch in my knee or nothing. He sat over there. I sat over there on these chairs and I interviewed him. So then he says, okay, well, I guess maybe let's stand up. And he said he made me a kiss. I thought, oh, it didn't feel right. But anyways, he did that. We stood up and he gave me this really awful slobbery kiss. It felt way too intimate. Out of nowhere.

[Anna Martin]

No windup.

[Gail Rice]

No, no wind up at all. Yeah, it just went from there. It went from Bad to worse.

[Anna Martin]

We'll be right.

[Commercial Announcer]

Wednesday's the Golden Bachelor is back. 66 year old Mel Owens, father of two and former NFL star, is looking for his second chance at love. And this season's women are in a league of their own. Ranging from 59 to 77, these intelligent, beautiful and fearless women are hoping to make a connection and show Mel that age is just a number. You're never too old to fall in love. The Golden Bachelor Wednesdays at 9, 8 Central on ABC and stream next day on Hulu. Don't just imagine a better future. Start investing in one with betterment. Whether it's saving for today or building wealth for tomorrow, we help people in small businesses put their money to work. We automate to make saving simpler. We optimize to make investing smarter. We build innovative technology backed by financial experts. For anyone who's ever said, I think I can do better. So be invested in yourself. Be invested in your business. Be invested in better with betterment. Get [e-mail] investing involves risk performance not guaranteed.

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[Anna Martin]

All right, Gail, so Mitch has just given you kind of an awful kiss. Keep going. Tell me what happened next.

[Gail Rice]

Then it just sort of. We just sort of got out of our clothes. Like, sure. I took my clothes off. He took his clothes off. So I left my underwear on. He left his underwear on. Put them on the chairs and sort of get into bed in this very clumsy way. Probably a bit of me that felt like, well, I don't know how this goes. You know, I was still hopeful thinking this is gonna get better. And then I said to him, I said, I think maybe why don't we do the erotic massage? Okay? So he okay, so oh my goodness, I've had massages all my life. Really? And this was like not even a good massage. And there was no way it was erotic. It was like, oh my God. It was like someone was patting my tummy and my arms with a bit of Oil. And then occasionally touched my leg. That was the extent of the massage. The top of my leg, my arms and my tummy. And that was it. And I just.

[Anna Martin]

That does not sound erotic. You're right. That sounds like a pat down.

[Gail Rice]

A pat down. And I'm not even sure what it was. So I. And he just kept kind of stroking me in a weird way. I never got my underwear off the whole time.

[Anna Martin]

And. Did you want to? It doesn't sound like a lot.

[Gail Rice]

Well, I wanted to. Well, no, I don't know what I want. I wanted someone to take charge.

[Anna Martin]

Can I ask, like, when he was. You say you've gotten massages your whole life. Was there ever a moment where you were like, maybe I should give him feedback? Maybe I should say that I. Like. Did you say, I'm not enjoying this? Did you vocalize that?

[Gail Rice]

What I'd hoped was he would be taking charge, which is something I don't give lightly to people, and I certainly don't give it lightly to men. I mean, this is what's so complex about this. I think what I realized with this is I wanted someone for once in my life to give me pleasure without me having to. I might have paid for it, but without me having to pay for it in all the ways I've had to pay for it, if that makes sense.

[Anna Martin]

What do you mean by that?

[Gail Rice]

Well, I mean to pleasure them first or to be the nice girl or to, you know, be the person that's always concerned about how he feels. I wanted to have a chance to have it all about me, which is. I thought what I was buying, but it felt like he had his head on my shoulder most of the time. And it's like I was almost patting his head.

[Anna Martin]

It's also kind of maternal.

[Gail Rice]

It's very maternal. Really awful. And that's. Sadly, a lot of my life has been looking after other people. So this just does not turn me on at all. And I think I was finally able to say, I sort of drifted off to sleep, I think. Cause I was bored or maybe just checking out. And at one point I thought, oh, gosh, I'm going to sleep. And he said, oh, it must be because you're so relaxed. I said, no, I don't feel relaxed. Oh. He said, what? You don't feel relaxed? I said, no, this isn't working.

[Anna Martin]

Wow, so you did speak up eventually.

[Gail Rice]

Finally. It took me a few hours. Finally I said, this isn't working. And he looked up at me because he's got his head on my shoulder like A dog, really. He sort of looked at me with these big droopy eyes and said, I'm so sorry.

[Anna Martin]

Wow.

[Gail Rice]

And then I said, yeah, I am, too. And he said, you know, sometimes there's just not a connection. And that woke me up. That woke me up. I said, no, I didn't ask for the boyfriend experience. I asked for these things. He said, yeah, but just sometimes there's no connection. I said, well, that's really disappointing because I didn't understand that's what it was about. I said, I think it's just best if you go. And he looked devastated, and he left. And, you know, this is interesting. Cause the hotel had delivered me a little piece of birthday cake. And I didn't want to eat it before because, you know, didn't want to be full or whatever. So I got back in the bed with the birthday cake and the rest of the champagne, and that's probably the best beer of the night. But I was up all night just fussing about. And it's hard to explain what I was fussing about. It was sort of like, I guess there's a part of it going, oh, gosh, I really am old. This really. You know, I can't even get a paid worker to do their job because he can't connect with me. You know, there's all that stuff.

[Anna Martin]

Like, there's a deficiency in me.

[Gail Rice]

Absolutely. Absolutely. And then, because I hadn't slept and it changed. Then it sort of changed into, no, I'm mad. I'm going to write him a letter. So I was up at dawn and started writing this letter, and I.

[Anna Martin]

And dawn is your birthday. It's your birthday.

[Gail Rice]

That's my birthday. Happy birthday. That's my birthday. But this is my birthday. This is the gift, really. My voice. I just got my voice. I got her loud and clear.

[Anna Martin]

Wow.

[Gail Rice]

And the. So I wrote a letter, and the letter was about, we're both in the same business of servicing people's intimate needs. You know, I do it as a psychologist, you do it as a sex worker. And our job. Our job is to connect with what comes in the door. We have to go with where people are. I also said, I understand if you couldn't given me an orgasm, that might not have happened. But there was nothing that you did that would lead any woman or person to get anywhere near that feeling.

[Anna Martin]

It's interesting because, you know, the letter in some ways is. It's extremely direct. It's extremely direct. And you are kind of calling him on the carpet in certain ways. And you'd mention rage, which I think is a really interesting emotion to bring in at this time.

[Gail Rice]

It was more a taste of rage. It was more like a. Oh, a gut. My gut just felt furious.

[Anna Martin]

You know, while I have not been in this exact situation, I will admit, this taste of rage I resonate with. After an unsatisfying intimate experience, there's like. You know, to me, it's because I start to feel like it's my fault, and then I get mad at myself for feeling that way. And so the rage is perhaps, like, directed inwards, not even so much at the other person. Inwards. Exactly. Yeah.

[Gail Rice]

Yeah. And I think that's. I often say that to women, like, anger. Depression is anger directed inwards. That sense of we get angry as women, but we often throw it back at ourselves.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah.

[Gail Rice]

And I had that experience, and I could feel I wasn't gonna stay there, and that's what led me to writing the letter. So the rage and the shame turned into something a lot more pragmatic. I sent it to him, and within, like, three minutes.

[Anna Martin]

Wow.

[Gail Rice]

He'd text me back, absolutely. I'm giving you the whole refund. I wasn't. And actually, I was shocked when he gave me a whole refund. I thought, if he just acknowledges this, it wasn't the money. It was like, I need acknowledgement that this went really bad. He wrote quite a nice email, and he said, look, I'm really sorry. I know it didn't go well. I can't really understand what happened. I'm devastated. I said, last night didn't go well. I'm more than happy to give you the refund. I'm more than happy to talk to you if you want to talk about it.

[Anna Martin]

So when you sent that letter and got his response, you know, in a lot, and he sent you back the money, did you feel vindicated? Was it like, all right, well, so there. Like, what was the emotion for?

[Gail Rice]

You know, I felt sad.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah.

[Gail Rice]

I felt. I felt. Because I really think Mitch is a really good guy, and I really think he was devastated. And I felt sad for both of us in a way that it turned out so badly, and I felt vindicated, and I felt relieved. He was the guy I thought he was, so I thought, good girl. You can read people. And at that moment, I decided I had to put that money somewhere where I'd do it again.

[Anna Martin]

Whoa.

[Gail Rice]

I kind of knew at that moment, if I don't commit now, it's never gonna happen again.

[Anna Martin]

Oh, my. So, Gayle, you're like, all right, we gotta Hire another escort.

[Gail Rice]

Yep. Yep.

[Anna Martin]

You rock.

[Gail Rice]

Yep. And then it was the feedback from the article that got my little bit of rage happening again.

[Anna Martin]

The article where you wrote about your experience with Mitch.

[Gail Rice]

Mm. Yeah. Because alongside heaps of was a very small minority of people, mainly men, I think, saying things like, what did you expect? The poor guy, look what he had to work with a post. Menopausal woman. You've got to be kidding. Get a dog.

[Anna Martin]

That's very unkind.

[Gail Rice]

That kind of stuff. Basically, it was about poor Mitch. Yeah, Poor guy. So that is what fired me up, I thought, hmm.

[Anna Martin]

It's like you're fired up to hire another escort. Do you.

[Gail Rice]

Yep.

[Anna Martin]

How do you find. I mean, there's. There's even more pressure, I would say, on the second experience, because the first one was so disappointing. How did you. Did you adjust your approach to the search at all the second time around?

[Gail Rice]

Well, no, the beauty of this, again, this is the cosmos delivering to me, really. But the beauty of this is I had all this feedback from women, you know, offering me all kinds of advice about sex toys and suggesting maybe I try a woman and suggesting all kinds of things. And in that, one woman suggested she'd been to this escort six times and she was in her 60s.

[Anna Martin]

Wow.

[Gail Rice]

So his name was Chris. I thought, there you go, there's the guy. And I find him on, like, I look at his website. And the really funny thing about this was on his site, he said, I guarantee satisfaction. I don't take payment until the after the fact.

[Anna Martin]

Ooh.

[Gail Rice]

But I think there was what you said a lot harder the second time.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah. What do you mean harder the second time you were more nervous.

[Gail Rice]

Maybe it was me. Ah. Maybe it was me. That's defective. Maybe this will just prove that maybe I do need to fade away. You know, this was all a bit of a fantasy about this 70 battery jump.

[Anna Martin]

So bring me into that. Did you go back to the same hotel?

[Gail Rice]

No, I chose another, better hotel.

[Anna Martin]

Oh, wow.

[Gail Rice]

I went up, I upgraded myself. I thought, I'm at least gonna enjoy the hotel experience now. I went to another hotel and it was sort of like this was less stressful because I knew the drill. I knew I just need to get up on the elevator. We can do this. And then the bit getting into the champagne and the chairs, I know how to do that. But what I made a vow to myself before I went. I did quite a bit of work internally on myself and with my therapist, too, on how I was gonna approach this. So I said to him, I'd Done this once before. It went very badly. So I'm just warning you, I'm, you know, probably quite nervous, so I said that. But the key difference for me was I did not interview him. I just let him take charge, even with the conversation.

[Anna Martin]

Hmm.

[Gail Rice]

I said, you're a go, Chris. You. You tell me what we do now.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah. Was that hard to do? To hand over control?

[Gail Rice]

No, because this time I decided that was the only way I could do it. I realized I had to trust. I had to trust that he could do the job.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah.

[Gail Rice]

And I actually. It was a relief. It was a relief.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah.

[Gail Rice]

I mean, it's interesting because, again, there was nothing really sexy about the first bit. You know, you have this image of you got the new sexy underwear and stuff, and it's all gonna be like this lovely, seductive dance. Not that it felt like again we take off our clothes, you put them on the chair. But this time he says, I think it's best to start with the erotic massage. So he takes charge and does that, and he can give a massage. And it was a good massage. I wouldn't say. I'm still looking for the. You know, the erotic massage.

[Anna Martin]

That's the third escort. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Gail Rice]

That's the third one. But it was good. It was very good, very attentive, very good. And I was present. So by the time that was over, I was in a totally different state. And then it just flowed. I mean, one thing I did say to him at the start is, don't kiss me. Because that last kiss thing, I think, was really what set me off. But in the end. In the end, I asked him to kiss me. And that was actually one of the best parts of the session, was the kissing bit, because I felt that solid and safe. I showed up by asking for what I wanted, and I wanted the very thing I told him I didn't think I wanted, which was the kiss. The kiss. And long story short, I got two orgasms.

[Anna Martin]

Wow.

[Gail Rice]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

Yes.

[Gail Rice]

Yeah. And it came. It just. It just came. Literally, it just was so natural. And, yeah, it just felt totally opposite.

[Anna Martin]

What a relief.

[Gail Rice]

Yeah. In many ways. And when he said, the time's up, it just felt like, end of transaction, crisp and clean and uncomplicated.

[Anna Martin]

When you close the door, are you proud of yourself? I'm proud of you. Hearing this story, I'm like, fuck, yeah. Sorry. But I'm like, okay. Yeah. You gave up control when you wanted to. You asked for what you wanted when you wanted to, and you came twice. Hello. This is awesome.

[Gail Rice]

Hello. I Got what I wanted. And I felt very proud of myself. And I felt very. I mean, I just felt like something was completed and I got the jump. That was what I thought I wanted, and I was right. And I came out of that feeling like I am a sensual, sexual person at 70. It's still in me. I don't necessarily need to use it all the time, but I know it's in me, and that gives me energy.

[Anna Martin]

And this isn't the end.

[Gail Rice]

No, this isn't the end. And I can ask for what I want, and I'll find different ways to do that. And I think that's the exciting bit for me. Why I'm so proud of. Because I was always someone who was determined I was never gonna be in a relationship. I knew at 17 I wouldn't marry, I wouldn't have children. No way was I getting trapped in a relationship. Because I grew up with a lot of responsibilities. So I'd spent my life having to hold back a lot because I sort of was always one foot out the door. So maybe this was looking back now. I think this is the battery jump I needed to be present.

[Anna Martin]

What's on the other side of that?

[Gail Rice]

Well, another erotic massage. I'm on the look for that girl.

[Anna Martin]

I love that you were like, listen, I want what I want. And I have. I've received an okay massage from Chris. It did the job, but I want a truly erotic massage.

[Gail Rice]

Yeah, I'm still on the look because I still realize I've got to look after that central part of my body. I guess that's something I've learned. So on the other side of it is, you know, don't get the cobwebs. Don't let the cobwebs build up again. Find a way. And maybe next year it's jumping out of a plane. There's something with my body.

[Anna Martin]

You know, we opened up this conversation, and you said that your 70th birthday. Approaching your 70th birthday made you think, you know, 20 years ago, I was 50. In 20 years, I'll be 90. And that scared you? You were scared of dying?

[Gail Rice]

No, not dying. I'm not scared of dying. I'm scared of not using the time I've got. That's it. More, I want to die knowing that I did everything I could do to keep myself alive and alert in the time I've got. And part of that is me letting go of the things that held me back. So all the protective defenses I had that held me back, like disconnecting from relationships and Being in control and not allowing myself to be vulnerable and pleasing others, all those things. I don't want them in the next 20 years. I mean, I still feel time's running out.

[Anna Martin]

It is, but it's no longer as scary to you. Is that true?

[Gail Rice]

No, it's not. No, that's right. It's no longer scary. And it feels like I looked after people for so long in my life that I. That was my main gig. And this is about me now.

[Anna Martin]

Well, can I ask you, like, are you gonna see Chris regularly? Like, is this a quarterly business transaction or, you know, like yearly or something?

[Gail Rice]

Well, no, I've decided I'll never see Chris again.

[Anna Martin]

Okay.

[Gail Rice]

Because if I'm gonna do it again, it has to be new and exciting. It's more of the same I don't wanna do routine anymore. I don't wanna, you know. Yeah. So it's somebody new. And I'm thinking maybe, I don't know, maybe next birthday, something. But it's gotta be somebody new. A new hotel, a new person, a new jump.

[Anna Martin]

When's your birthday, Gayle?

[Gail Rice]

April.

[Anna Martin]

That gives you time to find the right person.

[Gail Rice]

Maybe a woman.

[Anna Martin]

No. I don't know. Who knows?

[Gail Rice]

Well, and I. That's the other thing, because I am looking for a woman for the erotic Masters of the side. Yeah, yeah, I'm very clear on that, Gayle.

[Anna Martin]

I have no doubt, and I really mean this sincerely. You are going to get the erotic massage of your dreams. I just believe that with my whole heart. And I just really do.

[Gail Rice]

Oh, I love that. Thank you so much. We all can do that. We all can get that.

[Anna Martin]

If you want to read the essay that inspired this conversation, we'll have the link in our show notes. And before you go, I wanted to let you know that the Modern Love column is looking for breakup lines. Like, when you were breaking up with someone, what did you say? Or when someone was breaking up with you, which, by the way, how dare they? What did they say? We're looking for lines that are surprising, shocking, maybe funny or poignant. We're looking for words that have stuck with you. If you want to share your story, there's a form you can fill out and we'll put that link in our show notes as well. The deadline to submit is Sunday, October 5th. The Modern Love team is Amy Pearl, Christina Josa Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Reeva Goldberg and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Amy Pearl. It was edited by Lynn Levy. Original music in this episode by Marian Lozano and Dan Powell. Dan also composed our theme music. Our mix engineer was Sophia Landman, with studio support from Mattie Masiello and Nick Pittman. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones. Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we have the instructions in our Show Notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.