Anna Martin (3:05)

Murray is a writer from Montreal, Canada, who recently wrote an article for the New York Times Magazine called why Gen X Women Are Having the Best Sex. In it, she writes about getting divorced at 46 and going on to have more sex and better sex than she'd ever had before.

Mireille Silkoff (3:23)

I remember, like, I don't know, it must have been around my 49th birthday or something like that, walking around. It was. I was having quite a bit of sex and just thinking, like, everybody in the world is having sex.

Anna Martin (3:38)

And after talking to a bunch of her friends, Mireille realized she wasn't the only one.

Mireille Silkoff (3:44)

What the f is happening here? We're 50. Like, why are we talking about anal lingus? How is this a thing?

Anna Martin (3:57)

Well, from the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love. Each week we talk about sex, love, friends, family, and all the complexity of human relationships. On today's episode, we get the juicy backstory to Mireille Silkoff's popular essay. She tells me about the unlikely sexual resurgence she experienced in her late 40s and why being a Gen X woman is central to her newfound freedom. Stay with us.

Mireille Silkoff (4:36)

Work management platforms. Ugh, red tape, endless adoption time. IT bottlenecks. And after all that, nobody really uses them. But what if you didn't hate your work platform? What if you actually loved it? Monday.com work management platform is different. You can make any changes you want and adapt it to your needs in an instant. No IT middlemen, no admin overlords. Less roadblocks, more highways.

Anna Martin (4:58)

Add to that the beautiful dashboards that.

Mireille Silkoff (5:00)

Give you a real time, broad view of all your work, and what do you get? Easy, peasy, adoption.

Anna Martin (5:04)

Because people actually want to use it.

Mireille Silkoff (5:06)

Monday.com, the first work platform you'll love to use.

Anna Martin (5:11)

If you've been having your McDonald's sausage McMuffin with an iced coffee from somewhere.

Mireille Silkoff (5:17)

Else, now is a great time to reconsider.

Anna Martin (5:21)

In the Pacific Northwest, it's never too.

Mireille Silkoff (5:23)

Cold for an iced coffee in the morning.

Anna Martin (5:25)

Grab yourself a medium caramel, French vanilla.

Mireille Silkoff (5:28)

Or Cloud Classic iced coffee for just.

Anna Martin (5:29)

$2.29 beverage may cause craving for McMuffin or hash browns. Prices and participation may vary. Cannot be combined with any other offer or combo meal. Mireille Silkoff, welcome to Modern Love.

Mireille Silkoff (5:54)

Hi, it's a pleasure to be here.

Anna Martin (5:56)

Maria, I wanna start off by saying you wrote this piece for the New York Times Magazine that Really resonated with people. You had over a thousand comments on the New York Times website, which is a lot. You also got a ton of emails from people sharing their own experiences having the best sex of their life in their 50s. Did you expect this response when you published the piece or was this a surprise?

Mireille Silkoff (6:20)

I was absolutely certain that everybody except the type of women I was writing about, who are women like me, would freaking hate this piece. And that was the surprising thing to me was that really the piece was widely appreciated by all different types of women, according to the comments, you know, some men as well and across the generational spectrum, which to an extent is what I was going for, right, to show that middle age might be something that women who are younger than Gen X, which is the cohort that I wrote about the most in this piece, can look forward to.

Anna Martin (7:03)

Who were you expecting the Most ire from?

Mireille Silkoff (7:05)

Two groups? Number one, the experience of many women in their 50s is not a highly sexual experience. Many women in their 50s are, have been in very long marriages. And we all know what can happen to sex in very long marriages. You know, people have health concerns, some people grow disinterested in sex. Menopause has effects as well. So highly sexual 50 something woman might be super irritating as an archetype to women who aren't feeling that way. So that was one group that I thought would be hate readers, and they weren't. And then the second group that I thought would be hate readers are millennials and Gen Z, who I describe in the piece as having much less frequent sex and much less active sex lives than Gen X women or even boomers were having at their age. And so I felt like there might be some bad feeling from the younger generation of women that they might feel like I was calling them out as not having good sex lives or not having the same prow. Like, you know, I just thought that that might be annoying. And in fact, what happened with many millennial women in particular wrote to me and said that they loved reading the piece so much because they felt like it gave them something to look forward to, that sex might come into your life in a different way at an unexpected time later in life, that that is a new possibility.

Anna Martin (8:44)

One of the things you point to in your essay is the link between you being a Gen X woman and the freedom that you felt as a newly single person in your in your 40s. So I wanna ask sort of zoom out, like, how much has being a Gen X woman shaped your identity and in what ways has it shaped your identity?

Mireille Silkoff (9:05)

Well, I would say that I started really young in terms of being a kind of quote, cultural animal and a social animal. So I was working by the age of 13. I entered the club scene by the time I was 14 or 15, very young, I was in a rush, ever so slightly unparented. I mean, by today's standards, phenomenally unparented. And so I feel like I lived the Gen X experience, as we would say here in Quebec, au bout, which means to the living end. I was a music journalist, I was a club reporter, so I wrote about nightclub culture. I had a rave fashion line, I was a voguer in a voguing house.

Anna Martin (10:00)

Voguer as in vogue dancer.

Mireille Silkoff (10:03)

Vogue dancer. So I did all those things. Right.

Anna Martin (10:06)

What about that feels so archetypically Gen X to you?

Mireille Silkoff (10:11)

The experience of the Gen X child, for some cultural reasons and some just deep, deep economic, societal kind of reasons, was much more free range than it is right now. So by the time I had sex, which was at the age of 15, I felt like a grownup. I felt like this person who was working, who was earning her own money, who had experienced so much already. We couldn't wait to be adults. We just wanted it so badly.

Anna Martin (10:42)

I want to dig into the kind of sexual side of your experience as a, as a teen, early 20s. Like what do you remember about sort of coming into your sexuality at that time? Was it exciting?

Mireille Silkoff (10:54)

I mean, kids started young, so I remember in, in grade eight in my high school, who had had oral sex, who had not had oral sex. I always wanted to be a bit of a fabulon. So I kind of wanted to be ahead of the curve, like a fabulous kind of, you know, very sophisticated person. I was dead set on that kind of Persona from a very young age. And so I just wanted to be out there and like doing what everybody else was doing, really at the cutting edge of whatever sexual experience was at, you know, in 1980, whatever. And so I just remember going straight from never having kissed a boy to basically having sex in the span of about a year and a half.

Anna Martin (11:42)

And what was your relationship to your sexuality early on?

Mireille Silkoff (11:46)

I don't think I thought a lot about my pleasure. I think I thought a lot about being a sexual person, about pleasing my partners. I think that was a very huge thing that I thought about a lot of coming off a certain way, the way being mature, mature, sophisticated, up for anything, not somebody who would be over sensitive about anything. I really wanted to come off as a tough person. Yeah, I kind of think about sex in the 90s as being this crazy jungle.

Anna Martin (12:22)

Yeah, tell me about it. Cause I wasn't around then.

Mireille Silkoff (12:24)

Yeah, it was not good. I think that you had the world that the 60s opened up, but then you also had those people who had opened up the world of free love in all the positions of power, in what was on tv, in what was in film, in what was going to make it onto the radio, et cetera, et cetera. So free love suddenly transferred and translated and transmuted and kind of like insinuated itself into what feels like every corner of the culture from the Oval Office with, you know, Bill Clinton to, you know, now King Charles with wanting to Camilla Parker Bowles Tampax to Marla Maples. I mean, you know, it just never stopped. And I think there were these female archetypes that were really in the mix at the time that many of us felt like, well, that's just what you needed to be like. So you were either fending off rapacious men and being like, oh, he, he, he, you know, like no, no, no. Or you were this like nymphet who could never get enough.

Anna Martin (13:31)

It's interesting cause I feel like I'm hearing you speak as a cultural critic, which you are, you know, looking back on this era, but when you were in the era at the moment, it felt like I'm hearing you say sex was everywhere and you wanted to be a part of it. Does that feel fair to say? Like in the moment when you didn't have the zoom out perspective of now, it was like, sex is everywhere and I want to jump in.

Mireille Silkoff (13:55)

Yes. And I wanted to jump in and I did. And I had many partners and I took many morning after pills and I had many STD tests because it was the era of AIDS and condoms broke. And you know, I remember the Sex and the City era where it was threesomes are the new blowjobs. Right? So things were just getting more and more extreme and suddenly every guy around the turn of the millennium wanted a threesome. I don't think anybody really liked those threesomes, frankly. And I don't know.

Anna Martin (14:33)

Listeners, write in.

Mireille Silkoff (14:34)

Yes, listeners, please write in. Back then it felt like every single thing existed for male titillation. And I was part of that. And yes, it was exhausting. I didn't know it at the time. I just thought sex is something you do all the time, it's tiring. Maybe you don't enjoy it that much, but you do it and you do it cause you're a sexy woman. It's weird, things like that.

Anna Martin (14:59)

Hmm. I Know from your article that you met your husband in your 20s and you two were together for 21 years. How did your relationship to sex evolve once you got married?

Mireille Silkoff (15:14)

My story was very much sidetracked by the fact that at the age of 32, I became catastrophically ill with a really rare condition called spontaneous cerebrospinal fluid leak syndrome. I was very, very ill for many, many, many years. At some points, you know, confined to a declined bed with my head lower than my chest. I mean really, really could not, could not move and in a lot of pain because when you have no spinal fluid, you have no cushion around your brain, which means that your brain is clanking against your skull all the time. So it was not an easy way to live. Yet you figure things out.

Anna Martin (15:57)

That toughness comes back.

Mireille Silkoff (15:58)

The toughness comes back. So within the marriage, we had two kids. I very much raised them from bed. My ex husband did a lot of heavy lifting. There was always some help in the house too. That was hard. Being sick and a young mother and also displaced at one point to a new city. We had to move to Toronto. That was extremely hard. So the overwhelm of, you know, just living in a long committed relationship with two young children and my health being what it was, did not create, you know, the best conditions to have the best sex life. And so there were many, many years, which were just years of survival, I would say.

Anna Martin (16:45)

Did you ever think that things might change for you? Like, did you fantasize about having a healthy body again?

Mireille Silkoff (16:54)

I think that like on every level, let's call it top of the brain. No, I felt like I was never going to get better and never going to be cured. Did I think that I would experience pleasure in life again, joy in life again, bodily pleasure, even sexual interest? Yes, because I never really lost that. It just kind of went under for a while. But then if I'm gonna talk about a bit lower down in my body, some kind of like different self knowledge, I think that I always somewhere believed or had some notion that somehow I was going to get out of the thing that I had been told I was never going to get out of.

Anna Martin (17:47)

Did you picture what that life on the other side would look like? And particularly like, because this is a conversation ultimately about your sex life, did you picture what your sex would look like on the other side? Like what was the best case scenario?

Mireille Silkoff (18:02)

When my ex husband and I divorced, I really thought that I was going to live a very quiet life of orange pico tea and masterpiece theater and taking care of my children and once in a while, having a nice dinner with a friend and reading a lot of good books and taking walks. And that was what life was going to be like for me. In a way, I was accepting an older version of what it meant to be middle aged, which means that middle age is kind of the opening to senescence, you know, it's the opening to becoming an older. You know what I mean? Gray hair, with a cane, whatever. I had a cane, right? So, you know, so I had that kind of idea that that's what would happen post divorce. And instead, what happened was that my life exploded in a detonation of sex confetti.

Anna Martin (19:15)

Well, that is. I could picture us going to break right there. We'll be right back to hear about the explosion of sex that Mireille ended up having in her late 40s. Stay with us. If you've been having your McDonald's sausage McMuffin with an iced coffee from somewhere.

Mireille Silkoff (19:50)

Else, now is a great time to reconsider.

Anna Martin (19:54)

In the Pacific Northwest, it's never too.

Mireille Silkoff (19:56)

Cold for an iced coffee in the morning.

Anna Martin (19:58)

Grab yourself a medium caramel, French vanilla.

Mireille Silkoff (20:01)

Or classic iced coffee for just $2.29.

Anna Martin (20:04)

Beverage may cause craving for McMuffin or hash browns. Prices and participation may vary. Cannot be combined with any other offer or combo meal.

Somini Sengupta (20:14)

This is Somini Sengupta. I'm a reporter for the New York Times. I've covered nine conflicts, written about earthquakes, terror attacks, drought, droughts, floods, many humanitarian crises. My job is to bear witness. Right now, I'm writing about climate change, and I'm trying to answer some really big and urgent questions about life on a hotter planet, like who is most vulnerable to climate change? Should we redesign our cities? Should we be eating differently? What happens to the millions of people who live by the coast as the oceans rise? To make sense of this, I talked to climate scientists, inventors, activists. Mostly I document the impact of global warming. And that impact is highly, highly unequal. My colleagues and I are doing our best to answer complicated questions like these, but we can't do that without our subscribers. If you'd like to subscribe, go to nytimes.com subscribe and thank you.

Anna Martin (21:21)

So you told our team that over a period of many years dealing with this illness, you had spinal surgery 12 times, is that correct? And it didn't work, but right after you got divorced, this frankly, miraculous. That is not too strong a word. It is miraculous thing happened where you tried the surgery one more time and it did work. Were you. What was that like for you? Having dealt with this for over a.

Mireille Silkoff (21:52)

Decade, I think I felt very much like Rip Van Winkle in a way. You know, like I was emerging from a long sleep or like I was some weird raw worm kind of emerging from the earth, blinking, like, what in the world is going on? I went from being someone who had been chronically, chronically ill for 15 years to somebody who had a cushion around her brain and could jump and could run and could be physically embodied in ways that were completely impossible. And that happened in the span of under one hour on an operating table where I was awake.

Anna Martin (22:38)

Wow.

Mireille Silkoff (22:40)

On fentanyl, but awake. But suddenly I was in my late 40s. I was free of marriage. My children were not babies anymore, and I had my body for the first time since I was 32 years old. And the level of gratitude at just being able to even carry my own groceries or wear flip flops because I could never wear flat shoes before. Like, I can't even describe to you. So you could imagine the level of gratitude and the level of wonder I had at being able to re. Encounter sex with that newly fixed body.

Anna Martin (23:30)

Can you describe one of the first times you had sex after your marriage? What was that like for you?

Mireille Silkoff (23:39)

I'm trying to think of the right words. I mean, it was. It was just wonderful. Like, it was wonderful. And I think, like, a lot of the. Like, not to intellectualize too much, but, like, it was really fabulous to see. Like, I still had the interest. Everything still worked. My body still looked nice, maybe because it had been preserved in amber from so many years of, like, just being stuck in bed, you know, And I found that, like, I was really interested in taking up again where, quote, unquote, I had left off in my mid-20s.

Anna Martin (24:14)

Wow. In these first, you know, sort of sexual encounters after divorce. What surprised you about yourself?

Mireille Silkoff (24:26)

What surprised me about myself was how easy it was for me to embark on a new life when everything was really quite against me. Single mom, still carrying some illness. Like, it's not like everything disappeared, disappeared, disappeared. Right. So it's like, you know, still a lot of issues, money issues. I'm a working journalist, so there was a lot that kind of could paint this picture of it being very hard. It was also Covid. It was not an easy time in the world. And while all of that is certainly true, and yet I saw opportunities in this life stage. I saw opportunities that were possible both in bed and outside of bed, some new power that I seemed to own that I was kind of shocked at. I was completely surprised. It blindsided Me, to be honest.

Anna Martin (25:35)

What was that power?

Mireille Silkoff (25:36)

Well, first of all, my libido was as high as it was when I was in my 20s, so that was a complete surprise. That was a complete surprise. And I really did not see that coming. But the other thing that was so wonderful was that I didn't give a fuck as much as I did in my 20s. About, like, you know, does my butt look big? I mean, now we want our butts to look bigger. So that's useful because in the 90s, nobody wanted a very big butt, right? So it's like, whatever. You're a bit more forgiving. But, you know, the body positivity hit me too. And I was just letting my freak flag fly of things. I've got a cesarean scar, you know, whatever. It was all fine and I didn't have issues with it, and I felt sexy that way, even with, you know, all of the signs of age very much upon me. So that was a surprise. But the other thing that was a surprise was the ability to bring the layered knowledge that you accumulate reaching your 50s or reaching your late 40s to the bedroom. And I found that having that type of mind or mind body situation made me much more playful and made me much less self conscious and made me out for kind of like adventures in bed that I really don't think I would have entertained so easily in the cool 90s.

Anna Martin (27:04)

Were you surprised by your own desires? And what were they?

Mireille Silkoff (27:08)

I mean, my desire was just to have sex nonstop as much as I possibly could for that. That really. That really love. That really happened.

Anna Martin (27:19)

But I. I mean, I imagine it. It must have also been a little intimidating to put yourself out there. I mean, it had been 20 years since you'd been on the dating scene. What was that new scene like?

Mireille Silkoff (27:34)

Well, I feel that this is a huge part of the story, and this is part of a story which is not about Gen X. This is part of the story that is about Gen Z and millennials who have created a sexual landscape that is more fair, more open, more accepting, more consent culture, body positivity, gender questioning, all of these things are because of generations younger than my own, right? And so encountering this new landscape where you could question your gender in bed or you could, you know, be okay with your cesarean scar or your boobs looking old or having a big ass or whatever your hangup would have been in 1997, that's okay, right? And also just the fact that you can go and buy a clitoral stimulator at Walmart, that's crazy. Like that that exists that you could just do that. That's insane to me. That I can go to the pharmacy and like buy a pint of milk, you know, some deodorant and like a cock ring is really, to me feels incredibly new and incredibly kind of great.

Anna Martin (28:53)

Yeah. Is it safe to say you weren't just having sex and having a lot of it? You were having really good sex?

Mireille Silkoff (29:01)

I was having the best sex of my life.

Anna Martin (29:04)

Boom.

Mireille Silkoff (29:04)

Yeah.

Anna Martin (29:05)

Tell me why.

Mireille Silkoff (29:06)

Because I was a woman with a long career behind her. Because I was a woman who had endured a decade and a half of catastrophic illness. Because I was a woman with two children who needed me. Because I was a woman who knew who her girlfriends were, because I could earn my own way. And all of those things conspired, came together. And it is a place of privilege, I will say that for sure. You know, but for many years I was absolutely not in a place of privilege. Right. So all these things conspired together to create a self knowledge that followed me into the bedroom.

Anna Martin (29:52)

Hell yes. Hell yes. What did you feel comfortable doing or asking for in the bedroom that gave you this experience of the best sex of your life? Like what is a specific way that empowerment was channeled?

Mireille Silkoff (30:06)

Well, for one thing, I think I felt comfortable asking for sex.

Anna Martin (30:11)

Yeah.

Mireille Silkoff (30:12)

Which I'm not sure in my younger years I was that comfortable doing. I don't know if I was such a first move maker. And so that changed. And that's a huge change. Right. So more comfortable asking for it. More comfortable asking for what I wanted. But I think the big thing, and you know, any woman who's been in a locker room, I know it's a cliche to talk about like middle aged women being naked in locker rooms and not caring.

Anna Martin (30:39)

It's like the younger women are into the ymca, baby. I understand it. Yeah, totally.

Mireille Silkoff (30:44)

The younger women are covering themselves up or like, you know, going into the stall. And the older women are just walking around letting everything hang out. But I mean that that's true in the bedroom as well. Right. And so I think a lot of it was just confidence. When I actually think of the sex acts that I've been engaging in, I mean, you know, they're good, but they're not like so off the wall where I'm like hanging from chandeliers by clamps and straps. Like there's not that's, that's not what's going on here. What's going on here is feeling truly sensual and not being abashed about it. Like, not being embarrassed or kind of weenie or kind of like, ooh, like, I think all of that just creates a kind of place of comfort. And once you're comfortable in the bedroom or comfortable in yourself, it kind of opens things up for experimentation.

Anna Martin (31:39)

Yeah.

Mireille Silkoff (31:40)

You know, I was never much of a talk when I was young. Now I'm like, talking.

Anna Martin (31:44)

Are you dirty talking?

Mireille Silkoff (31:45)

I'm talking. Yes. I'm saying all kinds of ridiculous things. So. Yes, you know, stuff like that. Stuff like that.

Anna Martin (31:56)

Stuff like that. She trails off. She's thinking about something, I can tell. I mean, at what point did you realize that this kind of sexual resurgence you were feeling wasn't just your story alone? Of course you have all of these unique aspects to your story, your illness, you know, your divorce. But can you tell me what made you realize, like, maybe this isn't just a me thing. Maybe this is actually a Gen X thing. Maybe this is a generational thing. What was the moment that you started to realize that?

Mireille Silkoff (32:25)

I think it was when other girlfriends of mine divorced and had similar stories.

Anna Martin (32:32)

Like they were having banging sex. Yes.

Mireille Silkoff (32:34)

They divorced and then they partnered up pretty quickly and started having sex and having conversations about how their partner enjoys analingus or, you know, this stuff. And I'm like, how am I sitting around at 50 or whatever it was with a girlfriend who's the same age as me, and we're sitting in our Gen X uniform of the mother jeans with the Levi's shirt tucked into the jeans. And I love that look. Thank you. And I wear the same thing every day. And my, the slightly green. And we're sitting around talking about, you.

Anna Martin (33:15)

Know, licking someone's butt.

Mireille Silkoff (33:17)

Licking someone's butt. So, you know, it was just like I, it's, it was really a moment.

Anna Martin (33:25)

I mean, so let's talk about that moment. Like, what had, what had changed for you and your girlfriends that made these things you were talking about even possible?

Mireille Silkoff (33:39)

Divorcing later is a huge piece of the puzzle. I divorced in my late 40s and divorce is often a catalyst for sexual exploration among women. And what was interesting was that, well, even if you divorce really late, that still holds true. And so I think that's a big part of the story. So I noticed this among my girlfriends. And then very, very quickly, I began noticing it in the culture and noticing it in the culture, I just saw the same things that everybody else has seen this year. I had a Netflix scrolling bar served to me called Grown Ass Women Living Their Best Lives, which was filled from top to bottom with these Kind of almost made for TVish type movies like whatever, made for Netflix type movies about grown ass women having affairs with younger men. That seemed to be like a big theme. So there was a lot of that. There was one with Laura Dern, there was one with Nicole Kidman. There was suddenly just a lot of material. And so taking that along with my own experience and what I was seeing with the women around me, it just seemed like, well, this is a moment.

Anna Martin (34:58)

I mean, I want to get back to the, the Gen X of it. All those movies you're talking about, are they real? Like women in their 40s and 50s tend to have a lot of responsibility. How are some of them also having amazing sex as your article describes?

Mireille Silkoff (35:15)

I think that with women my age, I'm just gonna coin something called owning the hot mess.

Anna Martin (35:28)

I love that. Grown ass women owning the hot mess.

Mireille Silkoff (35:31)

Grown us women owning the hot mess. I think that there is with all of the responsibilities and all of the sleeplessness and difficulty and kids are glued to the sides of our body now as they've never been before. Parenting is much more intensive for the women my age who are still parents to kids who haven't flown the coop yet. And yet in all of that there is also an amount of power, an amount of mastery. So yes, it's a mess. And we're running from thing to thing to thing to thing. And yet part of this mess has to do with the fact that we've got this mess because we can handle it. And so I think that the 50 year old woman mattering in society, that translates to the bedroom right now.

Anna Martin (36:24)

It's been five years since your divorce. Has anything changed for you in terms of your sex life? Are you still in the sort of voracious stage you were in immediately post divorce? Have, have things shifted in some way?

Mireille Silkoff (36:37)

Yeah, I mean, things have settled down for sure. Also, like, I do want to say this, like menopause does have an effect and I am in menopause now and my libido has actually like become a bit less voracious. It's still there, it's still great. But like things can take a bit longer. I have to like work a bit more to get to places that were just very easy and natural to get to even five years ago. And that's fine, it's all part of the process. Because I also find that the fleetingness of this middle aged moment is part of its specialness and part of its poignancy.

Anna Martin (37:12)

What do you want your love life and your sex life to look like? As you enter this new phase, as you enter menopause, I want to do.

Mireille Silkoff (37:22)

Whatever feels natural right now. Still having a pretty healthy sex life feels natural. It doesn't feel like a burden. It doesn't feel bad. It still feels great. But when it doesn't anymore, I would like to have that same confidence, that same self knowledge and that same power within myself to say, okay, I don't really feel like doing that so much anymore. My priorities shifted. Or, you know, maybe I, I don't know, want to do it once a month or not at all, or, I don't know, you know, But I just want the journey to be organic in that way. And. And the answer truly is I don't know, because I never would have thought that this was happening to me in my 50s. So I can't really imagine what my 60s are gonna be like. Especially because for most of my adult life, I didn't think I was gonna reach my 60s.

Anna Martin (38:14)

Man, I'm excited for you. Me too.

Mireille Silkoff (38:18)

I'm gonna say a crazy thing that one friend said to me, and I don't know if this is true, but she said that I was fucked back to life.

Anna Martin (38:30)

I want to center that in you.

Mireille Silkoff (38:32)

So it's like I fucked myself back to life, period. Exactly.

Anna Martin (38:37)

Mireille Silkoff, thank you so much for talking to me today.

Mireille Silkoff (38:42)

Thank you. It was really a pleasure. I loved it.

Anna Martin (38:48)

Before we head to the credits, I want to share a fun update with you. We've decided to offer a little something extra for New York Times subscribers who are also fans of the Modern Love column. Now, in addition to our regular episodes of the show, like this one, which we'll keep publishing every Wednesday, New York Times subscribers will also get the latest Modern Love essay read aloud in your podcast feed every Friday. This is something you've been reaching out and asking us for, and we've been listening to you. So this is our way of saying thanks for listening to us. This episode of Modern Love was produced by Sarah Curtis. It was edited by Gianna Palmer and our executive producer, Jen Poyant. Production management by Christina Josa. The Modern Love theme music is by Dan Powell. Original music in this episode by Alicia Be, Rowan Nimisto and Dan Powell. This episode was mixed by Daniel Ramirez with studio support from Matty Masiello and Nick Pittman. Special thanks to Larissa Anderson, Mihima Chablani, Nell Galogli, Jeffrey Miranda and Paula Schuman. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones. Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love projects. If you want to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times. Times. We'll have the instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.