He Saved Me. Now It Was My Turn to Save Him.

Summary

Modern Love Podcast Summary
Episode: He Saved Me. Now It Was My Turn to Save Him.
Release Date: November 13, 2024
Host: Anna Martin
Guest: Laura Cathcart Robbins, Modern Love Essayist

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Introduction

In this deeply personal episode of Modern Love, host Anna Martin engages in a heartfelt conversation with Laura Cathcart Robbins. Laura shares her tumultuous journey of divorce and overcoming a severe Ambien addiction, highlighting the unexpected bond she formed with Scott, a fellow rehab patient. Their story explores themes of vulnerability, recovery, and the transformative power of unexpected relationships.

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Laura's Life Before Rehab

Laura's marriage, seemingly perfect from the outside, concealed deep personal struggles. Her husband was a successful movie and TV director, leading a glamorous Hollywood lifestyle. However, Laura felt compelled to maintain a facade, engaging in activities she despised just to fit into her high-profile environment.

Laura Cathcart Robbins [01:34]: "I might not be the right person to be in it, you know, and every single day that went by, I discovered more things about myself that didn't align with where I was."

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Facing Addiction and Divorce

Sixteen years ago, Laura made the difficult decision to ask her husband for a divorce while simultaneously grappling with an escalating Ambien addiction. Initially taking Ambien occasionally, her dependence grew to five or ten pills nightly, compounded by alcohol use as she sought to amplify its effects. Concerned about maintaining custody of her children, Laura realized she needed to seek help.

Laura Cathcart Robbins [03:14]: "Most important thing to me at that point in my life were my children. I wanted to keep and maintain that connection with them."

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Entering Rehab and Meeting Scott

Laura checked into a 30-day residential rehab program in Arizona, feeling utterly broken as her divorce proceedings commenced. Upon arrival, she was overwhelmed by anxiety and despair, leading her to attempt an escape. However, an unexpected encounter with Scott S.412, a fellow patient with a history of four DUIs, altered her path.

Laura Cathcart Robbins [04:33]: "It was like a reckoning with what my situation actually was. I gotta get out of here."

Despite initial annoyance, Scott's calm demeanor and persistent presence gradually became a source of comfort for Laura.

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Developing a Relationship in Rehab

Rehab rules prohibited direct interaction between men and women outside of structured meetings, yet Scott's constant, adoring gaze captured Laura's attention. Their sporadic eye contact evolved into a deep emotional connection, compelling Laura to seek solace in his presence amidst her struggles.

Laura Cathcart Robbins [14:09]: "These looks from him, these flirtations that we shared, made me feel good at a time where I've never felt worse."

Their bond solidified when Scott comforted Laura during a particularly distressing moment when she had to say goodbye to her children during a visit.

Laura Cathcart Robbins [19:50]: "He just let me cry. I don't know for how long, but it felt like a long time. And my grief felt less heavy."

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Overcoming Challenges Together

As rehab progressed, Laura and Scott supported each other's sobriety. Despite the challenges, including Laura’s ongoing battle with Ambien addiction, their mutual support system helped them navigate the hardships of recovery together.

Laura Cathcart Robbins [20:46]: "He did not get caught. He was waiting there, and I left with my jacket."

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After Rehab: Supporting Scott

Upon completing rehab, Laura returned to Los Angeles amidst intense emotions and the looming divorce mediation. Witnessing Scott's struggle back in Utah, facing potential relapse and personal chaos, Laura felt compelled to help him maintain his sobriety. She took significant steps to support his recovery, including booking him a plane ticket to LA and securing a sober living arrangement for him.

Laura Cathcart Robbins [30:43]: "I did. I had to bring him out. I didn't feel like I had a choice. I could not leave him there."

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Mediation and Divorce Process

Contrary to Laura’s fears, her ex-husband did not seek to take their children away during the divorce mediation. Their mutual respect and lingering love led to a cooperative mediation process, allowing Laura to maintain her relationship with her children without the added stress of custody battles.

Laura Cathcart Robbins [32:49]: "He didn't want to go after me. He didn't want our kids to suffer."

This amicable agreement provided Laura with the stability she needed to continue her recovery and nurture her relationship with Scott.

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Long-term Relationship and Sobriety

Sixteen and a half years later, Laura and Scott remain together, their relationship grounded in mutual respect and a shared commitment to sobriety. They prioritize their recovery and their families, establishing a balanced life where their personal well-being comes first.

Laura Cathcart Robbins [35:37]: "We were ready. We had been these other people in other relationships and been performative in different ways throughout our lives, and we were just ready to stop doing that."

Their bond is characterized by authenticity, with Laura no longer feeling the need to play a role, unlike her previous marriage. This genuine connection fosters a supportive and loving environment for both.

Laura Cathcart Robbins [37:33]: "I don't ever feel like I'm playing a role in this relationship."

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Reflections and Insights

Laura credits Scott for saving her life multiple times during rehab and acknowledges their exceptional relationship as a rare success story in recovery settings. Their decision to prioritize sobriety and mutual support over immediate romantic involvement allowed their relationship to flourish organically and sustainably.

Laura Cathcart Robbins [37:26]: "We are exceptional. ... We made it possible for us."

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Conclusion

Laura Cathcart Robbins' story is a testament to resilience, the importance of support systems in recovery, and the unexpected ways love can manifest during the most challenging times. Her journey from a façade of perfection to authentic self-acceptance and genuine love offers profound insights into navigating personal struggles and fostering meaningful relationships.

Laura Cathcart Robbins [38:35]: "What this has meant to me. And thank you so much for having me."

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For a more in-depth understanding, listen to the full episode of Modern Love or read Laura's essay, "Marriage Made an Actor out of Me," and her memoir, My Life in Hiding, available through the New York Times.

Transcript

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

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[Anna Martin]

Love now and did you fall in love?

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

Last fella I love but stronger than anything can I love you more than anything there's to love Love.

[Anna Martin]

From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love. Every week we bring you stories and conversations inspired by the Modern Love column. We talk about lovers, families, friendships, and all the messiness of human relationships. Today, I'm talking to a Modern Love essayist named Laura Cathcart Robbins about what happened when she did two difficult things at the same time. The first one was to ask her husband for a divorce. This was about 16 years ago. And from the outside, the life Laura had with her husband seemed like a dream. He was a big time movie and TV director, and that came with a fancy Hollywood lifestyle. But just to get through the day in that world, Laura felt like she had to pretend she was someone else.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

I think the anxiety around my marriage was that I might not be the right person to be in it, you know, and every single, you know, day that went by, I discovered more things that about myself that didn't align with where I was.

[Anna Martin]

Laura was acting like she loved doing things she really hated. Hosting parties, decorating the house, showing up to the school pickup line with exactly the right car and the right outfit.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

There was a way to be in that world. You know, there was a sameness to the people in the world. And a lot of the people in that world, Most of them 95% of them, were white. So I was already the black one.

[Anna Martin]

Laura couldn't take it any longer, so she told her husband she wanted out. Okay, so that was the first hard thing Laura did. But like I said, there was a second thing, and that was Laura facing the fact that she had a serious Ambien addiction and that she needed help. She'd first tried the drug when her two sons were babies and she was having trouble sleeping right away. It had a powerful effect for me.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

Ambien did something that I don't think it does to everybody. I describe it as just this complete euphoria. Floaty, warm, delicious.

[Anna Martin]

Back then, she took Just one pill every once in a while. But by the time the kids were in elementary school, it was up to five, sometimes 10 pills per night. And she started chasing them with alcohol because they were losing their effect. Now Laura was struggling to be present for her kids and she worried that her husband would try to take them from her in the divorce.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

Most important thing to me at that point in my life were my children. I wanted to keep and maintain that connection with them. And it was becoming more and more obvious that if I did not seek some help, I would not be able to keep that connection because I would be found out, I would be seen as an unfit mother and it would jeopardize my custody of my children.

[Anna Martin]

So Laura decided to check herself into a 30 day rehab. And on the way there, with her divorce process underway, Laura felt completely broken. Like every part of her life had fallen apart. But she was about to meet someone who would make things better and also way more complicated. Laura Cathcart Robbins. Welcome to Modern Love.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

Thank you. Thank you so much, Anna.

[Anna Martin]

So, Laura, you decide to go to a 30 day residential rehab program in Arizona. And after you tell your soon to be ex husband that you're going, he's surprisingly supportive. He flies with you, he drops you off there. Bring us into that moment, that first moment when you walk into the FAC facility.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

I'm in the middle of nowhere in Arizona. And so sitting there in that lobby made it very real. Checking in made it very real. I would not be able to leave once I had been dropped off. And it was July, it was 115 degrees. I'll never forget that. It was like living in the business end of a blow dryer. It was like I couldn't breathe in, a whole breath. I had just never been in that solid dry heat before. I was taken by a woman, I think, to what looked like it was probably like a chapel or some kind of rec room. And I opened the door and it's orientation. This is where the orientation is happening. And I looked around a little bit, but mainly kept my head down. And I heard them all introducing themselves and I didn't really look up until one of them said that he was there because he had four DUIs. And I was like, Four DUIs? Holy shit. So I looked up and looked at him and there was another, there was a young girl who said that it was her 15th time in rehab. And I was just like, this is absolutely a mistake. I don't belong here. These are people with real problems. I'm taking a seat from Somebody who really needs it. And, you know, as the guy was orienting us and telling us where we would go for this and where we would go for that. And this is what time dinner is, and this is what time breakfast is. I started to feel like I was going to throw up. But it wasn't actual liquid. It was like my body was pushing something out of me that I couldn't identify. It was a feeling I don't ever remember having before. And I covered my mouth against it.

[Anna Martin]

What do you think that feeling was, that thing inside you that was threatening to come out?

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

I think it was anxiety. My addict brain was kicking and screaming, understanding that what we were there to do was remove me from the substance. Right, or remove the substance from me, however you wanna look at it. And it also could have been despair, you know, a reckoning with what my situation actually was. Cause, like, I can't go anywhere. But I was so Anna. I was. I've. I've never been in that state of despair before. And then I was just like, I gotta get out of here. So I bolted. And I. I remember slamming that door open and how bright it was outside and just running.

[Anna Martin]

Where were you trying to go?

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

Well, at that moment, I was hoping to get to the office to get my husband before the plane took off. I was like, if I can get there and get him to turn around and come get me before he takes off, I can go home with him. I didn't know where the office was, but that's where I was going. And I mentioned the 4 duis guy. Apparently I left my jacket in there and he. I heard footsteps coming after me. He caught up to me and he's just talking to me and he's so laughing because he was so annoying. I was like, who are you and why are you talking to me? And he was talking about how he got there and that he was there for booze and he had two young daughters that he was trying to get wealth. I didn't care about any of that.

[Anna Martin]

You were like, give him my jacket, I'm leaving.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

Yeah. And then he walked with me all. I found the office. He walked with me all the way there. And I was talked into staying a few more days by the director of the facility. And the four DUIs guy, he's waiting there in the lobby of the office, just calmly reading a pamphlet on opiate addiction and waiting for me. And I left there, took my jacket and left. And he walked with me. And he's like, yeah, so you're staying? And I was like, for a minute, for a couple days. And he's like, yeah, I hear they have a pretty good chef here. And I laughed. It was a funny thing to say to someone who. I mean, I was sobbing. I was not at all together.

[Anna Martin]

I was like, the breakfast buffet sounds pretty good.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

Right? Right. And so, yeah, that was my introduction to Scott, who I later find out is Scott S. 412. We're each given patient numbers. Mine was 411 and his was 412, which means we checked in right after he. That job.

[Anna Martin]

I was gonna say consecutive.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

Give me more of a picture of Scott S. 412.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

He's just a little bit taller than me, blonde hair, blue eyes. He was very tan, which is interesting for an alcoholic. Usually they're not in the sun that much.

[Anna Martin]

That's interesting.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

And I'll just say I was not at all attracted to him. He was wearing this terrible Hawaiian shirt. It was big and boxy, and I was just, like, really struck by how ugly it was. But he's kind looking, Scott. His eyes are very kind. He has this ease about him, this casual vibe, which, like I said, I found to be really annoying then, but it was somehow later on a source of calm for me, his demeanor.

[Anna Martin]

We'll be back in just a moment. Stay with us.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

We might think of science as clinical, but as far as scientists are concerned, there is still beauty to be found in the patterns that explain our world. Hi, I'm Isabella Russell, and in the latest episode of this Is Not a Beauty Podcast, we'll hear from scientists and researchers about how beauty has spurred innovation and discovery. Listen now on your favorite podcast platform.

[Anna Martin]

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[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

Yeah. And I will just mention that at this particular facility, men and women weren't allowed to interact.

[Anna Martin]

Why do they have that rule? Do you know?

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

Well, you know, it's been said that addiction is kind of like whack a mole. Maybe you Address a physical addiction to a substance in treatment. Right. But it's going to pop up in other areas. And one of the most accessible areas is sex and love. You know, sex and love or drugs. And they don't even give us caffeine in rehab. Like, you're not supposed to have any drugs, no sugar. You're supposed to be abstinent. So we sat separately for breakfast. We sat separately for groups. The only time we were allowed to sit together was when we went to our respective 12 step meetings. So, you know, as we were sitting at our separate tables, he's staring at me the entire time. Breakfast, lunch, dinner.

[Anna Martin]

Like, he'd look up and there he.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

Is staring at me and. Which was also annoying at first.

[Anna Martin]

What kind of stare was it? There are so many different flavors.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

It's like an adoring stare. Like a gaze of adoration, just pure adoration. Just like, he couldn't keep his eyes off me.

[Anna Martin]

Like, puffy dog eyes.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

Yes, yes. And so I, you know, would turn my back or turn slightly to the side and ignore him. But probably like three or four days in, I start looking for him, and my eyes are kind of wildly going through the cafeteria until they land on him. And he's staring at me, of course, wherever he is. But I start really counting on those, like, you know, just kind of eye flirting encounters.

[Anna Martin]

Why do you think something flipped there? What was it that that eye contact, that moment of connection was giving you?

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

Well, I think the thing was probably the thing that they want you to avoid, which was I needed something to feel better. It is like I said, you know, love is a. Is a drug, sex is a drug, and they both give you dopamine hits that aren't quite the same as my Ambien, but they hit the same trigger. You know, these looks from him, these flirtations that we shared, made me feel good at a time where I've never felt worse.

[Anna Martin]

Is there one more sort of specific example that you remember where he did something and you liked it?

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

Yeah. So I mentioned that we could go to the 12 step meetings and sit together. And I walked in a little bit late to this meeting, and there was an empty seat next to him, and I saw one of the other girls going to sit there, and he put his hand over the seat and then nodded toward me, like, this is for her.

[Anna Martin]

Wait, okay. Can I just say it? It's so sweet, because it is quite elementary school in a lot of ways. You know, when you have, like, a playground crush and it's like, not you.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

Her, totally Then our arms touched slightly because we shared an armrest. And that felt like fire or electricity running up and down my arm. There was this connection that he and I shared from like kind of that moment forward that felt very exclusive, you know, just he and I.

[Anna Martin]

When did this connection turn physical?

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

Well, he kissed me. I think we were like four or five days in. Whoa. Yeah. He wanted to show me something, which was this cow pasture. All the cows moo.

[Anna Martin]

It's a classic guy line. Let me show you this cow pasture.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

All the cows moo at sundown together. It's this really. I had never seen anything like it. And so we're, you know, kind of leaning over the railing observing the cows, like, you know, clapping my hands when they finish their song. And when I do that, I turn around and he's in my face and he comes in for a very chaste kiss. You know, just a smack and you could have knocked me over with the feather. I was not expecting it.

[Anna Martin]

Wait, but what did it feel? You said you could, you were totally surprised. But what did the kiss feel like? Did it feel good?

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

I don't know. I mean, I love that.

[Anna Martin]

Oh, true.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

It probably would have if I had been in another state of mind. But. But Anna, you have to just imagine how shut down I was, right? You know, I would have these moments with Scott, but almost the rest of the time I would be sobbing. I sobbed in group, I sobbed in meetings, I sobbed in therapy, I was crying at night. I mean, I just cried or I was completely shut down. And it was all because I couldn't be with my kids. Like everything, everything all day was to that phone call where I could call them and say goodnight to them.

[Anna Martin]

But then you actually got to see your kids at one point when your husband at the time brought them to visit. Can you tell me what happened then?

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

When my kids came to visit, I was about halfway through my time there, so about 15 days in and we had this kind of half day together, my kids and I. They looked gigantic to me. I couldn't believe like how big they looked, you know, just 15 days later. And, you know, as we were nearing the end of this visit, my heart started to pound because I realized I was going to have to say goodbye to them. And I didn't know if I could survive that. I feel like I have an out of body experience at this point. I'm observing myself holding their hands, you know, kissing them goodbye, telling them that I'm going to see them soon. They collapse, you know, crying, no, mommy, no. We don't want to leave. You come with us. And I have to keep. Right. Oh, my gosh. And so I'm trying to keep a smile on my face and be like, it's going to fly by and I'll be back soon. Why do you have to stay? I have no explanation for them. And then they get in the car with my ex and they leave. And that's when I collapsed, and I kind of, like, crawled my way over to these benches, and I was just sobbing, sobbing, sobbing. I couldn't catch my breath. I thought I might suffocate because my tears were streaming into my mouth and nose, and I couldn't catch a breath. And then there's Scott. And So I'm on Scott S4. Scott S. 412.

[Anna Martin]

412.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

Yes. I just have to preface it by saying that Scott was looking at going to prison if he didn't complete his time in rehab. And he did have two young daughters, so it was really essential that he not get written up, that he get a good report. And he. I'm on the women's side of the facility where he's not allowed. Never allowed. And, you know, like, you know when you watch cop shows how people, like, run with the guns below the car line so they can't be seen?

[Anna Martin]

Yes.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

And that's what he's doing. He's running from, like, tree to tree, ducking.

[Anna Martin]

Oh, my God.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

And he gets next to me, and we're sitting on the ground next to this bench, and I'm like, what are you doing here? And he said, I knew you'd be sad. And I just grabbed that awful Hawaiian shirt and buried my head in it. He just let me cry. I don't know for how long, but it was. It felt like a long time. And my grief felt less heavy. I felt better, but not like, yay. But it was just eased enough that I felt like I could, you know, maybe go to dinner that night in the cafeteria, maybe get through another night there. And, I mean, I absolutely credit him for saving my life multiple times there. I don't know if I would have stayed if he hadn't been there waiting for me.

[Anna Martin]

Wow. He did not get caught.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

He did not. No.

[Anna Martin]

Look at him. The Hawaiian shirt is camouflaged. Interestingly, even though it is so loud, you end up kind of against all odds and certainly unexpectedly to yourself, you end up making it through the full 30 days of rehab. And it's time for you and Scott to go your separate ways. He's going back to Utah. You're going Back to la and you get to share a taxi to the airport. Can you tell me the story of that ride?

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

Yeah. Well, I had called in a refill for myself of Ambien that I was planning to pick up at the 1CVS in Wickenburg, Arizona.

[Anna Martin]

You were about to leave this facility where you had detoxed painfully?

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

Yes.

[Anna Martin]

For 30 days. You wanted more Ambien?

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

I wanted more Ambien. You know, I'm an addict, so 30 days away from my drug certainly helped me get some distance from it. But it didn't stop that euphoric recall. I was telling myself the same lies that I always told myself, which was, I'll just have one, and then I'll save the rest for the next time I really can't sleep or really need it. I will not take them all at once. I will not take two. I will not.

[Anna Martin]

You know, I'll be different this time.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

I'll be different this time. Yeah. I still wanted that feeling. And I was honestly really scared that I wouldn't know how to be at home without it. But I realized as we're driving to the airport that I don't know how I'm gonna pick up these pills with Scott in the car. I hadn't thought about that part.

[Anna Martin]

Because you don't want him to see you do it?

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

No, No, I don't want him to know about it. And so there's one road that takes you from the facility to the highway that you need to take to the airport, and the CVS is on that road. And as we're approaching it, I'm just, like, you know, trying to strategize as quickly as I can. How can I leave Scott in the car? We haven't seen a drugstore, you know, in over a month. He's going to want to go in. He's going to be like shaving cream, you know, like gum that we haven't been able to buy. And I can't think of an excuse fast enough. So we pass it.

[Anna Martin]

What does that feel like?

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

Oh, I couldn't believe I was scolding myself, you know? Why didn't you say anything? Why tell him to turn around? And Scott, you know, he's just chatting with the driver and like the. The Dark Knight, the Heath Ledger, you know, Batman had just come out, and he's like, we might have time to see that before our planes, you know? Cause there's a mall with the movie, and I want to stab him in the face. Like, I just. I'm so anxious and upset. That I've left this refill behind. But I didn't get it because he was there with me, which is another way I credit him for saving my life. And we end up stopping at a Starbucks, which was the other thing that we had been craving. And we got Starbucks and went to the airport and he flew home and I flew home.

[Anna Martin]

What was it like to be on your own again without Scott S?

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

It was terrifying. It was terrifying to say goodbye to him. It wasn't just him I was saying goodbye to. It had been this cocoon I'd been in for the last 30 days. And I felt at that time that the way that I got through those 30 days was because of him. And if I didn't have him with me, I didn't know how I was going to get through the next 30 days.

[Anna Martin]

Did you imagine you had a future together?

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

No, I didn't see any path toward a future together at all.

[Anna Martin]

We'll be right back.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

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[Anna Martin]

JPMorgan Chase bank and a member FDIC, subject to credit approval terms apply. So, Laura, after you've said goodbye to Scott, you land back in la, back home. And it's around this time, too, that you and your husband have scheduled a mediation session when you're going to come together with your lawyers and decide the terms of your divorce. That session is about three months away. Can you tell me how you're feeling as this date approaches?

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

After I got back, it felt like I was going through life with no skin. Honestly, I felt absolutely vulnerable. And not just the vulnerability. Like it hurt. I was in physical pain. I was in mental anguish. You know, I don't know if I even had a spiritual center at all at that point. I couldn't access it if I did, but everything felt raw and abrasive and wrong. My home life with my, you know, my husband was tense we were separate in the house, but we were living together. And I was walking on eggshells. I was afraid to say or do anything wrong. And we were going right back into finalizing this divorce. So a lot of my time was spent with my attorney. We had basically 90 days to prepare me for this mediation and make me look like the model mom.

[Anna Martin]

And how were you supposed to prove you were a model mom?

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

Well, she really wanted me to. She said things like, be the first one in the pickup line, you know, when. When you get them from school, continue your PTA duties, you know, make sure that you are seen. If there is an after school game, if there is a tutoring, you're the one who's dropping them off and picking them up. You're the one that's arriving with snack. She wanted me to act like there were cameras everywhere. So everywhere that I went, I had to be the best Laura that I could present. And she wanted me to drug test twice a week so that if my sobriety was ever called into question, we would have receipts saying that I was. I have been sober. She wanted me to go to therapy, starting immediately. She wanted me to go to 12 step meetings and get a sponsor. And, like, she had a laundry list of things that she wanted me to do. And so I started down that list, you know, and the drug testing was humiliating. I didn't realize that you actually had to go in front of someone.

[Anna Martin]

They had to watch you pee, right? They had to. Wow.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

Yeah. Yeah. But to make sure that I keep my kids in my life, I will do it.

[Anna Martin]

This is so intense.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

Yeah. Yeah, it really is.

[Anna Martin]

Where did Scott fit into all of this if he did? Were you still in touch?

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

Yes. So you were smiling a lot. We had a nightly phone call for the first time.

[Anna Martin]

Wow. Nightly.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

Yeah. Him just checking in with me to see how, like, how horrible it was. Basically. Like, is it as horrible as you had imagined? And, you know, really impressed that I got myself to a meeting, you know, without Ambien or him.

[Anna Martin]

When you talked with Scott, could you tell how he was doing? How were things going for him?

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

So he was returning home to a home that he lived in by himself. There were empty bottles everywhere, just as he'd left it. All the mail, mostly bills, were piled up on his kitchen counter, unopened.

[Anna Martin]

He told you this?

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

Yes, he told me this. And he spent a couple of days, you know, hauling trash bags full of clinking bottles out to the trash cans and dumping them, but he was unable to go to meetings where he was in Utah because he couldn't drive. He doesn't have a driver's license anymore. And, you know, I'm a block away from, you know, six meetings. Any direction I go here in la. He doesn't have that.

[Anna Martin]

Were you worried he might relapse?

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

I was really worried that Scott would relapse. And I felt it was inevitable that he would if he didn't do something different. And he was the one who was in despair at that point. As my situation was improving, I felt like his was going the other direction.

[Anna Martin]

How did that make you feel? Did you feel responsible in some way?

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

Absolutely. He saved my life in treatment. I got to do what I can.

[Anna Martin]

To save Scott S. What did you decide to do?

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

I decided to book him a plane ticket to come to Los Angeles to book him into a sober living that was fairly near my house and also connect him with a sponsor.

[Anna Martin]

Laura, I really want to understand why you decided to do this. I feel like it was a big risk for you given everything that you were working on to get yourself better, to prove you were a fit mom.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

But I had to, Anna. I had to bring him out. I didn't feel like I had a choice. I could not leave him there.

[Anna Martin]

He saved you. So you felt like it was your turn?

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

I did.

[Anna Martin]

So Scott gets on that plane, he makes it to la, and now he's in your city. Did you get to see a lot of each other?

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

We only saw each other at meetings.

[Anna Martin]

We went to the same meetings.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

Okay, so we would meet at the meeting. Sometimes I would pick him up, but usually we would meet at the meeting and then we'd have like a short chat afterward and then we would talk on the phone at night.

[Anna Martin]

When you had these very few in person interactions. When you were sitting side by side at the meeting, can you describe what that was like to be close to him physically in this way that was at least outwardly sanctioned?

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

Yeah. It goes back to that elementary school metaphor that you brought up before. Because it really was like that. It was like I was sitting with my best friend on the playground, you know, like elbowing each other if somebody said something funny or something. We'd already discussed, like that kind of thing. We had a lot of fun together.

[Anna Martin]

So all this time, of course, this mediation session with your husband and the divorce lawyers is approaching, Right? You'd been so afraid of doing anything that he could use against you. When you finally sat down at the mediation, did your soon to be ex husband end up trying to take the kids away from you?

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

Not at all. I was Pretty shocked. He really wanted what I wanted, which was to get to our son's saxophone recital on time that day.

[Anna Martin]

The same day as the divorce mediation.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

The same day as the mediation.

[Anna Martin]

Why do you think he didn't?

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

I think that we ended our marriage before the love was gone, and I'm so grateful for that. I still loved him and he still loved me. I think we still love each other now, obviously, in a more quiet way, but it's. He didn't want to see me hurt. He didn't want our kids to suffer. You know, to go after me would have been to go after them as well. And you know what I mean by that? Like, if I hadn't been able to have access to them, if I couldn't be with them, it would have hurt them totally.

[Anna Martin]

They would have been deprived of access to you. Yeah.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

Yeah. He didn't want any part of that.

[Anna Martin]

So what was your relationship to your kids going to look like moving forward after that mediation?

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

I mean, the thing I've been so afraid of losing, I didn't lose. I got to stay in the house. I got, you know, all this time with my kids, really. My ex husband made the concessions. He moved out of the house, but he came back and forth so that we could stay there and maintain our family unit.

[Anna Martin]

Wow.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

Every morning we had breakfast together as a family. We did birthdays together and holidays together and parent teacher conferences together.

[Anna Martin]

As things were starting to get stabilized with your almost ex husband, what did that mean for Scott? Like, did you want to jump right into a relationship with him at the same time?

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

Yes and no. You know, I felt like I'd been waiting for a long time, and in fact, it was just a matter of months. But at the same time, you know, what we did was we created this batting order where our recovery had to come first. We both understood that. And then our families, our respective families, his kids, his ex wife, my kids, my ex husband had to come second, and then everything else, including each other, came third. If my kids needed me to do something and Scott needed a ride, you know, I had to take care of my kids. Like, that made it very easy. Not simple, but I didn't have to struggle.

[Anna Martin]

It sounds like it's putting Scott beneath a lot of things, but in fact, you kind of have to, it sounds like.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

I mean, I guess, I think we chose to because without sobriety, I don't have any of this.

[Anna Martin]

How long has it been since you met Scott in rehab?

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

So 16 and a half years.

[Anna Martin]

And you're still together?

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

We are we are. My office at home is downstairs, and he's upstairs right now. In fact, he did a lot to help me set up for this interview. We dated for six years before we moved in together, so we really kept that batting order and that boundary. I'm extremely close with my boys still. Scott and I have, like, this sober home. We have a meeting in our house every Saturday where people come and we chop it up about recovery. And.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah, you know, Laura, in a lot of ways, your story is, like, such an exception to the rule. We talked about how, like, one of the number one things they tell you in rehab is like, do not replace whatever addiction we're trying to heal here with an. With a love addiction. Do not get into a relationship. And I guess I wonder, like, y'all did, and it worked. Why do you think it worked for you two?

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

We are exceptional. I'm really aware of that. And I know that there are some people who make it for a year or two, but I don't know very many who were together 16 plus years later. And I think one of the reasons why we are where we are was, one, we were ready. We had been these other people in other relationships and been performative in different ways throughout our lives, and we were just ready to stop doing that. And, you know, I don't know if that's possible for everybody, but we made it possible for us.

[Anna Martin]

And how are you different in your relationship with Scott than you were with your ex husband?

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

I think the biggest difference in my relationship with Scott is that I don't ever feel like I'm playing a role in this relationship.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

Here's the beauty of it. When I met Scott, I was the absolute worst version of myself, the version I had hid from everybody else. I was a wreck. I was ill, and I in no way was trying to impress him. He became intrigued with that person. He wanted to know more about me, and the more he knew, the more he liked Scotty, didn't fall in love with my potential. He's not banking on a better version of Laura down the line. I go through the day, you know, as myself, whatever that looks like. And at the end of the day, I'm loved for it.

[Anna Martin]

Laura Cathcart Robbins, thank you so much for telling me your story. I so appreciate it.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

Oh, Anna, I can't tell you what this has meant to me. And thank you so much for having me.

[Anna Martin]

If you want to read Laura's Modern Love essay, which is called Marriage Made an Actor out of Me, look for the link in our show notes. There's also a link to Laura's memoir, My Life in Hiding. Just a quick fact checking note. We reached out to Laura's ex husband for comment on the story. He didn't return our request. Also, before we go, we're working on our end of the year goodbye by 2024 episode. So we want to know what was the worst date you went on in 2024? Can you tell us the story of what happened and why it was so awful? Also, what do you want to do differently when it comes to love in the new year? Please note you do not have to be single to share your story. If you're partnered and you went on a really bad date this year, we want to hear from you too to send us your story. And please listen carefully because these instructions have changed changed. Record a voice memo and email it to us@modernlove podcastytimes.com that's ModernLove podcastytimes.com include your name and where you're from and you just might hear yourself on a future episode of the show. Modern Love is produced by Reva Goldberg, Davis Land, Emily Lange and Amy Pearl. It's edited by Lynn Levy in our executive producer, Jen Poyant Fact checking by Mary Mathis Production management by Christina Djose. The Modern Love theme music is by Dan Powell. Original music by Pat McCusker and Dan Powell. This episode was mixed by Daniel Ramirez with studio support from Maddie Masiello and Nick Pittman. Special thanks to Mahima Choblani, Nell Galogli, Jeffrey Miranda and Paula Schuman. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones. Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you want to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we've got the instructions in our show Notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.