How I Decentered Men and Learned to Center Myself

Summary

Modern Love: How I Decentered Men and Learned to Center Myself

Host: Anna Martin
Guest: Natasha Rothwell, Emmy-nominated actor and writer
Release Date: March 19, 2025

---

1. Introduction

In this episode of Modern Love, Anna Martin engages in a profound conversation with Natasha Rothwell, renowned for her role as Belinda in HBO’s The White Lotus and her own creation, How to Die Alone on Hulu. The discussion delves into Natasha’s journey of self-discovery, focusing on her efforts to decenter men in her life and prioritize her own needs and desires.

---

2. Guest Introduction: Natasha Rothwell

Anna Martin introduces Natasha Rothwell, highlighting her evolution from striving to become her own boss in Hawaii to exploring self-love during a work exchange in Thailand, as depicted in The White Lotus Season Three. This backdrop sets the stage for Natasha’s insights on manifesting personal goals and overcoming fears to achieve them.

---

3. Vision Boarding and Self-Centering

Timestamp: [04:30]

Anna Martin:
“Natasha, I want to start by asking you about something that you've talked really openly about and seem to be a huge fan of, and that is Vision Boarding. Am I correct in saying you're a fan of that?”

Natasha Rothwell:
“I think for someone like me that I’m busy a lot and I feel like at the end of the year it's an opportunity to sort of take time and think about what I'm wanting from the year ahead.”
[04:58]

Natasha shares her appreciation for vision boarding as a tool to articulate and pursue her aspirations, reflecting on how visualizing her goals has materially impacted her career, such as seeing her name listed first in a call sheet, symbolizing her leadership and success.

---

4. Reading of the Essay: "Decentered Men: Decentering Desire for Men Is Harder" by Jasmine Browley

Timestamp: [11:08]

Natasha reads Jasmine Browley’s essay, which narrates the struggle of prioritizing oneself over societal and internalized expectations to center men in one’s life. The essay recounts Browley’s journey from a self-sufficient woman to contemplating partnership, illustrating the tension between independence and the desire for romantic connection.

---

5. Discussion on the Essay

Timestamp: [21:57]

Anna Martin:
“Natasha, tell me your immediate reactions to this essay. What does it bring up for you?”

Natasha Rothwell:
“I'm so angry at Roy. I still thank you. Like my God, the number of times I've had Roys in my life where they have fumbled the—where I'm like do you know who I am? And not even career-wise but like just as a human. Do you know what I mean?”
[22:04]

The conversation revolves around the concept of "Roys" – men who unintentionally derail women’s journeys toward self-centering by imposing their own agendas or expectations. Natasha expresses frustration with these interactions, emphasizing the importance of maintaining personal boundaries and prioritizing self-worth over external validation.

Timestamp: [25:00]

Natasha Rothwell:
“I think that the bait is particularly appetizing for those of us, yourself included, who are like boss ass bitches, who are like in this alpha mode, running their lives, running businesses, you know? Cause it's this, like, are you okay? Is the subtext. And how often do we have someone check in on us because people think we have it, you know, handled.”
[25:00]

Natasha discusses the subtle ways societal expectations can lure high-achieving women into relationships that may not align with their personal goals, underscoring the challenge of balancing professional success with personal life without compromising self-centeredness.

---

6. Personal Anecdotes and Insights

Timestamp: [23:17]

Anna Martin:
“Can you share maybe an example from your own life where, as you put it, like a Roy fumbled it and how did you handle it and how did you sort of pick yourself up and move forward after that hope disappeared?”

Natasha Rothwell:
“I think most Roys can slip in when I think my life can be rather chaotic and when I forget to pour into myself and a Roy's like, I got a pitcher of water. That's like an easier lift than pouring into myself, right? Being like, oh, I'll drink from this.”
[25:05]

Natasha recounts personal experiences where relationships with "Roys" led her to momentarily lose focus on self-care and self-prioritization. She illustrates how recognizing these patterns allows her to reinforce her commitment to self-love and independence.

Timestamp: [26:12]

Interviewer:
“What expectations did you have of love and how were they formed?”

Natasha Rothwell:
“I had immense expectations about love. And I think part of it, my parents celebrated 46 years being married... Rom coms and When Harry Met Sally and, you know, all of these cinematic depictions that love was the cure.”
[26:49]

Reflecting on her upbringing and the influence of media, Natasha explains how early exposure to idealized notions of love shaped her expectations, leading to behaviors aimed at seeking validation through romantic relationships.

---

7. Conclusion: Centering Self and Relationships

Timestamp: [32:32]

Natasha Rothwell:
“And I still worry that, you know, the panic is real about just, like, I don't want to meet someone and give up this independent version of myself that I found.”
[32:32]

In wrapping up, Natasha emphasizes the ongoing journey of balancing self-centeredness with the natural desire for companionship. She advocates for treating oneself with the same care and intentionality that one would extend to a romantic partner, reinforcing the episode’s central theme of self-prioritization.

Timestamp: [33:05]

Natasha Rothwell:
“Fuck a Roy. Fuck a Roy all the way.”
[32:40]

Natasha concludes with a powerful affirmation of her commitment to self-love and independence, symbolizing her rejection of relationships that compromise her personal growth and self-worth.

---

Notable Quotes

• Natasha Rothwell: “Putting yourself first is not being selfish. Yes, it is. If it hurts somebody, you got to put your needs aside.”
  [02:21]

• Natasha Rothwell: “I became sort of the main character of my life.”
  [08:59]

• Natasha Rothwell: “We want the respect and the recognition of our peers.”
  [07:16]

• Natasha Rothwell: “I was a vegetarian for like 12 years, but there was a moment where I ate meat and it was because I didn't have the courage to tell my best friend at the time.”
  [07:05-08:14]

---

Final Thoughts

This episode of Modern Love offers a candid exploration of the challenges and triumphs associated with prioritizing oneself in a world that often equates self-worth with romantic validation. Through Natasha Rothwell’s engaging narrative and insightful reflections, listeners are encouraged to cultivate self-love, recognize and set boundaries against unfulfilling relationships, and embrace their journey as the central focus of their lives.

---

Produced by: Emily Lang
Edited by: Gianna Palmer
Executive Producer: Jen Poyant
Music: Dan Powell, Alicia Be Itup, and others

To explore more stories about love in its myriad forms, subscribe to Modern Love on nytimes.com/podcasts, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.

Transcript

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[Anna Martin]

Love now.

[Natasha Rothwell]

And did you fall in love last?

[Interviewer]

Fell. I love them.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Love.

[Essay Reader]

But stronger than anything can.

[Natasha Rothwell]

They love you more than anything, you're still loved.

[Essay Reader]

Love.

[Anna Martin]

From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love. Every week we bring you stories about love, lust and all the messiness of relationships. Inspired by the Modern Love column. This week, Emmy nominated actor and writer Natasha Rothwell. You might recognize her from the HBO show the White Lotus, where she plays Belinda, a spa manager. This season, season three, she's finally getting some spa treatments for herself while she's on a work exchange in Thailand. But in season one, when we first met her, she was trying to figure out how to become her own boss as she worked at a hotel in Hawaii.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Yeah, I just got to work myself.

[Essay Reader]

You're never not at work. Well, you think I'm working hard now.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Wait till I start my own business.

[Essay Reader]

What are you talking about?

[Natasha Rothwell]

I don't know. I think I'm getting ahead of myself.

[Anna Martin]

Like her character, Rothwell is no stranger to manifesting what she wants. Way before she was even cast in the White Lotus, she dreamed of working with its creator, Mike White.

[Natasha Rothwell]

He is someone that I was just like, I want to be in his orbit. And then when the show came to be, I was terrified. I didn't even want to take the meeting because it was Covid 2020 pre vaccination. It was scary times and I could.

[Essay Reader]

Have said no and just stayed home.

[Natasha Rothwell]

And wiped down my groceries.

[Anna Martin]

Being scared or nervous didn't stop her from going after her dreams. And that's what the majority of Rothwell's characters are like. They're willing to push through discomfort to put their needs first. Take for example, the show Rothwell created and starred in, which ran for one season on Hulu. It's called how to Die Alone. In it, her character Mel is on a journey of self love. In this one moment on the show, she needs a push from her friends to go after a promotion, even though it could jeopardize her relationship with the guy she's interested in.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Putting yourself first is not being selfish. Yes, it is. If it hurts somebody, you got to put your needs aside.

[Sofi Voiceover]

Be honest.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Do you want to take this management class? It does come with the ratings. Miss, take the class today.

[Anna Martin]

Rothwell reads a modern love essay called ID Centered Men Decentering Desire for Men Is Harder by Jasmine Browley. It's pretty easy to understand why she picked this essay. Whether through her characters or in her own life, Rothwell understands the challenges and the joys of putting your own needs first. Stay with us.

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[New York Times Voiceover]

New York Times app has all this.

[Interviewer]

Stuff that you may not have seen.

[Natasha Rothwell]

The way the tabs are at the.

[Anna Martin]

Top with all of the different sections.

[Sofi Voiceover]

I can immediately nav to something that.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Matches what I'm feeling. Play wordle or Connections and then swipe over to read today's headlines. There's an article next to a recipe next to games and it's just easy to get everything in one place. This app is essential. The New York Times app, all of the times all in one place. Download it [e-mail] Apple.

[Interviewer]

Natasha Rothwell, welcome to Modern Love.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Thank you for having me.

[Interviewer]

Natasha, I want to start by asking you about something that you've talked really openly about and seem to be a huge fan of, and that is Vision Boarding. Am I correct in saying you're a fan of that?

[Essay Reader]

I am, I am.

[Interviewer]

I feel like more and more people are talking about Vision Boarding. I I'm constantly fed, you know, content on my Instagram about manifesting your dream life. What is Vision Boarding to you and how are you doing it?

[Natasha Rothwell]

I think for someone like me that I I'm busy a lot and I feel like the end of the year it's an opportunity to sort of take time and think about what I'm wanting from the year ahead.

[Interviewer]

Mm. Can you sort of tell me or share some specific things you've put on a on a vision board and perhaps if it's worked out for you?

[Essay Reader]

Yeah.

[Natasha Rothwell]

On previous boards I printed out a sort of clip art version of a call sheet for every show. You know, you get this call sheet and it's kind of got all the details of the production. Everyone who's working. When they're working, then they'll list of the cast and it's in numerical order and number one is typically the person on the call sheet that is the lead or sort of the most important person. And I wanted that, I wanted to work towards that and I did. When I had my own show called how to Die Alone and I created it and I just remember seeing my name as number one and I was like, I did it.

[Essay Reader]

I did it.

[Interviewer]

I did.

[Anna Martin]

And Natasha, I have to be honest with you, I have never vision boarded in my life and hearing you talk about it, I'm like, wow, it has really worked out for you. And maybe I'm missing out on something but I just feel like I've been kind of resistant to it.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Yeah, because it feels, it's kind of cringe.

[Essay Reader]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

No, but, but it's like I do want things, right? I want them a lot. I want a lot of things.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Well, yeah, I was that way by even speaking my wants and needs, you know, and so I was so tight lipped about saying what I wanted out loud because it felt like, you know too. I don't know too much, you know, just to say I want these things. But now I go into meetings and I say I want hardware. I was like, let's write a show. I want hardware on my shelf. Like I want.

[Interviewer]

Oh, I didn't know what you meant by that. I was like, she wants a hammer.

[Natasha Rothwell]

I want a really nice brass door handle. No, I want trophies. You know what I mean?

[Interviewer]

Totally.

[Essay Reader]

Okay. Hell yeah.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Yeah, yeah. And I was just like. And a lot of executives I'm in meetings with, when they hear me say that, they kind of perk up and I'm like, I said the quiet part out loud.

[Essay Reader]

Like, we love this.

[Natasha Rothwell]

We do this because it's our heart's, you know, passion.

[Essay Reader]

But at the end of the day.

[Natasha Rothwell]

We want the respect and the recognition of our peers. And that's one of the ways. And so I feel like putting things on the vision board. As cringe as it is, it is this sort of tongue in cheek, playful reminder.

[Interviewer]

What do you think what changed for you that made you able to do that?

[Essay Reader]

Girl therapy.

[Natasha Rothwell]

20 years. I've been grinding 20 years. But I was such a people pleaser. I was such a people pleaser and so much so. I can't believe I'm telling you this story. I was a vegetarian for like 12 years, but there was a moment where I ate meat and it was because I didn't have the courage to tell my best friend at the time. Her mother made chicken enchiladas when I came to visit. And so I sat there and I was just like, I guess I'm gonna eat this. And I ate it. Got real, real sick. Cause it had been a long time since I'd eaten meat. That's how much of a people pleaser I was.

[Interviewer]

You're just like sitting there, the plate of poultry that you haven't ingested in years in front of you, and you're like, I will put this in. Wow. Okay.

[Natasha Rothwell]

That's like very. That's like a peak. Peak. Unable to speak my needs. And that is tough.

[Interviewer]

Real physical implications to that one too.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Exactly, exactly. That was free therapy. So now I'm no longer making concessions. I'm articulating my needs and saying my dreams out loud.

[Interviewer]

I've actually, I've read in an interview with you that you call yourself a recovering people pleaser. How did you. You're saying it's therapy, but I want to get a little more specific just. Cause I actually think it's very apt to the. The modern lovessa. You're going to read like, how did you recover from that tendency? How did you center yourself and your needs?

[Natasha Rothwell]

Well, I think for me, instead of deriving value from another person and their pleasure, I centered myself. I became sort of the main character of my life. And it's that main character energy that I just never had. And it's also consequence because I'm consuming television in which like thick black women were never centered, you know, and so it was walking through the world not thinking that I should put myself first. And so it's a perspective shift. And at the direction of my therapist, she encouraged me to follow some fatty baddies on Instagram to diversify my perspective. Because I think so often I'm inundated with straight sized, you know, women and subconsciously that plays on my value. And so I started cutting the ones that were like lingerie models and like, you know, doing boudoir pictures. And I put them on my vision board. I love that because I just wanted to lean into like the sexy and wantedness of those images. And so much of what therapy is, it's giving you tools, but you have to decide whether or not you pick them up. Right? And so. And you have to decide in the moment of when these thoughts come up, do I entertain it, do I give it weight, do I identify with it? Or can I just acknowledge it in this moment that I wanna please this person and decide if that's an authentic feeling that I genuinely want to, or if I'm just trying to placate a version of myself that derived worth from.

[Interviewer]

Their pleasure and that feels very resonant with the modern labesse. You chose to read today. This is by a woman, this author, who seems like she's figured out how to put herself first. She prides herself on not needing validation from romantic partners. She really, I will say this, seems to have her vision board on lock. She knows what she wants out of life.

[Anna Martin]

Why don't you go ahead and read this essay for us?

[Essay Reader]

I Dissentered Men Dissentering Desire for Men is Harder by Jasmine Browley. You don't want to get married? Roy said.

[Natasha Rothwell]

I always bristled at this question.

[Essay Reader]

No, I said with a sheepish smile and modest shrug. I've learned to make people, namely men, feel comfortable with my steely answer through humble body language. It's too much of a burden to want that when I also want to.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Live a really big life.

[Essay Reader]

Roy's brow wrinkled as he played with the lukewarm French fries on his plate. This sunny diner reminded me of my favorite Southern aunt's kitchen.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Maybe that's why I felt so at.

[Essay Reader]

Home sitting there with him. Or maybe it was just him. I think I get what you're saying, he said in his Texas drawl. A long beat passed. This was one of the many things I liked about him, his flirty relationship with measured silences. Finally he said, I want to get married one day. You know why? I know my big life will be bigger with her. I met Roy at a bar crawl in Dallas on Juneteenth 2022, one of the best times and places to be black, young, and proud. Fresh off of my flight from Chicago.

[Natasha Rothwell]

I was warm, drunk and happy as.

[Essay Reader]

I followed my girlfriends through a throng of partygoers. When I felt a tug at my denim shorts, I turned around to see Roy standing there, all tall, dark and smiley. May I help you? I asked. Yeah, I think you can. We wound up dancing, joking and touching long enough for my friends to have to come find me in the crowd to share that they were moving on to the next bar. Before following them out, Roy and I exchanged numbers. I never expected to hear from him again. Just like with most flirtatious touch points I had had with men over the years, I couldn't have cared less. At 32, I had long given myself permission to reach self actualization. With or without ever finding everlasting romantic love. I had familial love, friend love. Unlike some of my girlfriends, whose ultimate joy hinged on their nameless, faceless future husband and children. I often panicked at the thought of tethering myself to such things. There's so much more to life, I would think to myself as my friends talked about their dream dress or the ideal diamond cut for the ring they would proudly wear for the rest of their lives. How they would be the matriarch in their modern day version of the Huxtables, the epitome of the black and excellent nuclear family structure. All of that just made me nauseated to think about. I would like to think my disconnect from domesticity stemmed from a string of teenage and 20something heartaches at the hand of relationships and situationships gone wrong. But it started way before that. In second grade I noticed how serious the girls would get around their crushes and how they would change their little burgeoning personalities to suit what they thought would get the boy's attention.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Even then, at 6 I thought, Ew.

[Essay Reader]

I read that many adolescent girls are inundated during their formative years with images that shape their expectations of love, which informs most of their biggest decisions in life. And most of the yearnings that they would later have to be a wife were just the manifestation of early conditioning from the Disney fairy tale movies they watched growing up. That's exactly why I didn't let myself expect too much from Roy that first night we met. Yeah, the flirting felt delicious and he showed the classic signs that he liked me just as much. But so what? I had no vision of what was next and was fine leaving him where I met him. I hadn't dated anyone in nearly a year at that point and it was wonderful, which was a bit weird. So I took to the Internet to investigate and I found the tiktokified term for what I had been feeling for most of my life. I had officially decentered men. It's a movement that holds space for women to put themselves first rather than focusing everything, whether they realize it or not, on men's opinions and influence. After falling down the TikTok rabbit hole.

[Natasha Rothwell]

I realized one of the things I.

[Essay Reader]

Found I loved most about the phenomenon was that the movement wasn't about rejecting your femininity. It also wasn't about hating, intentionally repelling or removing men either. Men simply took too much energy to.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Care about for me anyway.

[Essay Reader]

And this was about women not putting men at the center of their lives. It's not a new concept at all. At least four waves of feminism involve some form of women centering themselves over men in their lives. Even cishet women Finally, I felt like I wasn't alone in my disinterest with the concept of landing and keeping a man to be the validation of my existence as a woman. And yet my heart still leapt when Roy texted me two days later.

[Natasha Rothwell]

My face hurt from all the smiling I did when we went on our.

[Essay Reader]

Perfect first date the next evening. My stomach ached from the deep belly laughs his well timed jokes pulled from me. We wound up spending the entire night.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Together, bonding in a way I hadn't.

[Essay Reader]

With a guy since before I recognized the type of damage men could do. If I wasn't vigilant with my heart. God, who was I becoming? Over the next several months, anytime I was in Dallas for work or to visit friends, Roy was a priority. When I was there, I was his.

[Natasha Rothwell]

The irony though, is that I would.

[Essay Reader]

Go a long time not talking to him at all. No texts, no calls, nothing. It was a great way to affirm to myself that I came first, to not get too lost in the flowery, poetic nature of it all. My life was still mine. My feet were still on the ground. There would be no family planning, no delusion, no fantasizing or floaty daydreaming about what a home would feel like if the two of us created one together. Nope, I'd think. Men aren't my focus. Roy isn't my focus. And that worked well until I made plans to see him during a trip.

[Natasha Rothwell]

To Dallas for my best friend's birthday.

[Essay Reader]

I texted him an itinerary, planned a dinner, bought expensive gifts, quaffed, waxed, and primed myself in anticipation for the time we would spend together. Upon touching down, I sent him a simple text that said, do you still have time for me? Just arrived in your city? Absolutely, he replied. I texted him the location of the restaurant I had painstakingly chosen for us to have dinner that night.

[Natasha Rothwell]

I sent another text a few hours later to make sure the time I.

[Essay Reader]

Chose worked for him. The hours ticked by. Nothing. The next day, his radio silence alarmed me, so I reached out again to make sure he was okay. He responded, sorry, I got caught up in some things. Can't wait to see you today. Totally fine. I told him a do over could happen that day at brunch or that.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Night at the lounge my friends and.

[Essay Reader]

I planned to go to. He agreed. I shared all the meetup details, cautiously giddy again. I imagined how the night would go.

[Natasha Rothwell]

And people would remark on how good.

[Essay Reader]

Roy's and my version of black love looked when we walked into the venue hand in hand. But he never showed up the next day, as I sat on the plane ride home at Time to ponder just how much more space Roy took up in my life than I realized and how his absence reinforced that.

[Natasha Rothwell]

As much as I wanted to believe.

[Essay Reader]

That my dream career, healthy friendships and self indulgent hobbies took up all the real estate in my heart, there was still enough wiggle room for something else to get in love. Ugh. Eventually, as I deplaned in Chicago, Roy texted a short, vague apology for his unresponsiveness. There was noticeably no further explanation for what caused it. At that point, it didn't matter to me. I needed to hurry up and get home to steam the sexy dress I planned to wear for the dinner reservation.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Happening in a few hours, I had.

[Essay Reader]

A hot date with myself.

[Anna Martin]

After the break, Natasha talks about her experiences with the Roys in her own life. That's next.

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[Anna Martin]

All right Natasha, tell me your immediate reactions to this essay. What does it bring up for you?

[Natasha Rothwell]

I'm so angry at Roy. I still thank you. Like my God, the number of times I've had Roy's in my life where they have fumbled the where I'm like do you know who I am? And not even career wise but like just as a human. Do you know what I mean?

[Interviewer]

Totally.

[Natasha Rothwell]

I'm surrounded by boss ass bitches who got Roys in their life wasting their time.

[Interviewer]

I was gonna. This is dedicated to all the Roys out there.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

This is a country. This is a world. This is a world full of Roys.

[Essay Reader]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

And that sucks. Let's just say that that sucks. And the work of so many incredible women I would like to include myself in that is just sort of sifting through the Roys. We're doing a shovel motion for those who are listening but it's like, you know I don't know why I'm digging, I'm digging in my mind.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Like, it's, it's. I feel you when you're doing that motion. I'm like, yeah, it feels oppressive. Like to be one confronted with hope like that is just. It feels almost violent for the hope to be provoked and taken away by the same person.

[Interviewer]

Can you share maybe an example from your own life where, as you put it, like a Roy fumbled it and how did you handle it and how did you sort of pick yourself up and move forward after that hope disappeared?

[Natasha Rothwell]

Yeah.

[Essay Reader]

So many Roys to choose from for.

[Natasha Rothwell]

This story, but, well, you take your pick. There's definitely been a moment where aroi played upon, I think, that kind of particular and acute vulnerability of, you know, women who are longing for partnership and to be seen. And it's kind of insidious how it slips in. It's like, good morning, you know, like infamous fuck boy, good morning text. And just like. And I fell for it hook, line and sinker. And now you have schedule send. So these guys, these Roys, probably have many, many women that they're.

[Interviewer]

I never thought about that.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Oh, I think about it all the time. I'm like, huh, I wonder where I am in the lineup with this guy.

[Essay Reader]

Shoot.

[Interviewer]

Oh my God. Okay, well, that's a whole can of worms I'll think about later tonight.

[Natasha Rothwell]

But I do think, like, the bait is particularly appetizing for those of us, yourself included, who are like boss ass bitches, who are like in this alpha mode, running their lives, running businesses, you know? Cause it's this, like, are you okay? Is the subtext. And how often do we have someone check in on us because people think we have it, you know, handled. And so it's this kind of like little comfort pocket you can nuzzle into of just like, yeah, good morning to you too. And like, how was your day? Thanks for asking.

[Interviewer]

What do you think made you susceptible to the powers of Roy at that point?

[Natasha Rothwell]

Yeah, I think most Roys can slip in when I think my life can be rather chaotic and when I forget to pour into myself and a Roy's like, I got a pitcher of water. That's like an easier lift than pouring into myself, right? Being like, oh, I'll drink from this soars. So those moments I'm the most susceptible is when I know that I need to fill my cup because you can't pour from an empty cup. And rather than fill the cup myself, it's when I'm going for the whatever drink that they were Offering, you know, metaphorically. And that's when I betray myself. Because I do think what Jasmine is doing is talking about the need to fill her own cup. She takes herself out on this date and she's not waiting for a man to treat her well. She's gonna treat herself well. And I think that's how you combat it.

[Interviewer]

This is giving a whole new meaning to when you call someone thirsty.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Okay, listen, the metaphor comes from real. That is so true.

[Interviewer]

I wanna talk about something. The author of the essay Jasmine Browley, says at actually the beginning of her piece. She. She goes all the way back to her childhood and she writes about how many. This is a quote. Many adolescent girls are inundated during their formative years with images that shape their expectations of love, which inform most of their biggest decisions in life. Was that. Was that true for you growing up? What expectations did you have of love and how were they formed?

[Natasha Rothwell]

I had immense expectations about love. And I think part of it. My parents celebrated 46 years being married on the 23rd of February.

[Anna Martin]

Wow.

[Interviewer]

Congratulations, mom and Dad.

[Natasha Rothwell]

I mean, truly. And as wonderful of an example that is, it's oppressive. That's like a high bar, you know what I mean? It's like, not everyone's gonna have that. And compounding that was, you know, rom coms and When Harry Met Sally and, you know, all of these cinematic depictions that love was the cure. All right? And it definitely formed my opinion of what to expect, you know, in terms of my parents, like, very famously, my mom says, you know, she was on this youth trip with the church and my dad was on the bus and they were sitting together and my mom fell asleep on his arm and she's just like, you know, in that moment, I felt like God was telling me, this is my person.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Natasha Rothwell]

So that just sent me, you know, a clumsy 15 year old all through Westlake High School, grabbing random dudes arms, being like, is this the one? Is this the like, Sorry, let me.

[Interviewer]

Just fall asleep really quick.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Yeah, just like, is this.

[Essay Reader]

Nope, nope.

[Natasha Rothwell]

And it's just like, yo, Natasha's walking around school just grabbing boys ar. And I'm like, I'm doing something. Thanks. Waiting for God to speak to me through this bicep.

[Essay Reader]

Hello?

[Natasha Rothwell]

Yeah, I can laugh at it now, but I think that the impulse is beautiful, right? To want to be loved, to want to love, to want to be seen. And I think that the beauty of this essay, it's reminding you to fall in love and to chase and to woo yourself, because I didn't have that Part of my equation for the longest time, I want to say, like, for the better part of, like the last 10, 15 years, I've been courting myself. I've been like, really trying to center myself in the same way that she describes. And it resonated with me so hard because again, she acknowledges that the desire is always going to be there. But you have the desire for men.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Or a partner.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Yeah. And you have the agency to also choose yourself. You know, you can decide.

[Interviewer]

You say for the last 10 or 15 years, which is long term relationship, you have been courting yourself, you've been wooing yourself. Can you give me, like, a specific look into what that means for you? For Jasmine, the author of the essay, it's wearing a sexy dress and eating a delicious meal. Like, what is it? What does that mean in your life to you?

[Natasha Rothwell]

For me, and I want to Clarify the last 15 years, it wasn't a perfect, blissful relationship with myself. At times it was abusive. I would not treat myself very well, and I would be sleep deprived, haven't eaten. And what it looks like for me now in a big way is honoring my wants and my needs, giving myself permission to rest. And I think there's so many small micro moments of love that we can do for ourselves. And yes, the bath is great and, you know, the candles and all of that, but it's like, you know what.

[Essay Reader]

I'm gonna sleep in tonight.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Or you know what?

[Essay Reader]

I don't want to go to this.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Party that everyone says I have to go to. I just want to stay home and crossword. That's what I'm gonna do.

[Interviewer]

Or vision board, bring it back.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Right. If it's the end of the year, I'm vision boarding, but most of the times it's crosswording.

[Essay Reader]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

You know, I think loving ourselves often means protecting ourselves, as you're pointing out. Like, protecting our peace, protecting the ways we like to live or take care of ourselves. But then I guess the question is, like, what happens when something or someone new enters the picture? Like, I'm thinking about the author of this essay, how she'd carefully constructed her life to not revolve around men. And then she meets Roy and he throws everything off balance. Like, do you think the author was panicked by that?

[Essay Reader]

The panic?

[Natasha Rothwell]

At least as I see it, it's that fear that the independence and strength that you've found will be betrayed by the desire that you have for this person. And I think the. It is something that you can't predict or know. You know, you can Lose yourself at any time. And I think that's like, the risk.

[Essay Reader]

Reward of it, right?

[Natasha Rothwell]

And, you know, there's. There's this moment when I lived in New York. There was a Roy, and I realized he was a Roy, and we stopped talking. And I had always wanted to, like, walk across the Brooklyn Bridge. I lived in Brooklyn and I was saving it, right? I was saving it because I wanted to do it on a date. I was like, this would be so romantic when that happened. And after this particular Roy, it wasn't a fancy black dress like Jasmine wore and got ready to go out, but I walked across the bridge and went to Grimaldi's Pizza.

[Interviewer]

Yum.

[Natasha Rothwell]

And took myself on the date that I was waiting for this Roy to take me on, you know? And I still worry that, you know, the panic is real of just, like, I don't want to meet someone and give up this independent version of myself that I found.

[Interviewer]

You're strutting across that bridge, you're eating some pizza, and you're like, fuck a Roy. Can we have that in the fuck? Yeah.

[Natasha Rothwell]

Fuck a Roy. Fuck Aroy all the way. Like, listen, I was so deliriously happy. It felt so, like. I felt like I was breaking rules. You know what I mean? And it felt so empowering to be like, I am not going to put life on hold with the hopes that aroi will catch up to where I am. And, yeah, have me a little pepperoni slice.

[Interviewer]

We gotta end the interview there. Have me a little pepperoni slice. Natasha Rothwell, thank you so much for this conversation today.

[Essay Reader]

Thank you.

[Anna Martin]

This episode was produced by Emily Lang with help from Reeva Goldberg, Davis Land and Amy Pearl. It was edited by Gianna Palmer and our executive producer, Jen Poyant. Production management by Christina Josa. The Modern Love theme music is by Dan Powell. Original music in this episode by Alicia Be Itup. Marian Lozano, Pat McCusker, Roman Niemisto, Amin Sahota and Carol Sapporo. This episode was mixed by Sonia Herrero with studio support from Maddie Masiello and Nick Pittman. Special thanks to Mahima Chablani, Nell Galogli and Jeffrey Miranda. And to our video team, Brooke Minters, Felice Leone, Dave Mayers and Eddie Costas. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones. Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you want to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we've got the instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.