← Modern Love
Modern Love
How to Stop Asking 'Are You Mad at Me?'
00:43:57
Therapist and author Meg Josephson on how she stopped people pleasing.
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- [00:00]
Narrator
Blood of My Blood on stars is the epic romantic saga you've been waiting for from the creators of Outlander. Travel back in time to witness the battlefields of World War I to the Highlands of 18th century Scotland. Two couples fight for love against all odds in a story filled with passion, time travel, and destiny. You don't need to know Outlander to get hooked. Blood of My blood series premiere August 8th only on Starz and the Starz app. The home of Outlander.
- [00:31]
Anna Martin
Love now and did you fall in love?
- [00:33]
Meg Josephson
Last love, but stronger than anything for the love love and I love you more than anything there's to love love.
- [00:45]
Anna Martin
From the New York Times. I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love. Every week we bring you stories about all the messiness of relating to other people.
- [00:54]
Meg Josephson
Anytime my boss would slack me. Can we chat or do you have a sec? Immediate sinking feeling in my stomach. Oh, God, it's time. I'm getting fired. I've done something horribly wrong, and I'm about to have it.
- [01:11]
Anna Martin
My guest today is therapist and author Meg Josephson. Meg has a new book coming out called are you mad at me? It's a look at this nagging, sneaking suspicion that you've done something wrong, that you're letting everyone down.
- [01:25]
Meg Josephson
Just an immediate assumption that there is an inherent flaw within ourselves. Am I in trouble? Is something wrong with me? Am I bad? Am I secretly bad? And it's just a matter of time before everyone finds out.
- [01:44]
Anna Martin
Meg grew up with that question, are you mad at me? Always at the front of her mind, she was always on the lookout, trying to keep her dad in particular from getting angry.
- [01:54]
Meg Josephson
Every hour was so different. Let me go downstairs and see what mood he's in. And that will determine my strategy for the next. For the next hour. And this. This fear of authority was really big. Like, growing up, it was fear of my dad, but now it was fear of my boss.
- [02:15]
Anna Martin
Meg spent years doing this, trying to manage other people's reactions, trying to please them, trying to keep the peace. It wasn't until she was an adult that she realized what she was doing wasn't helping her. And what she was doing had a fawning. Today, Meg Josephson tells us what it took to stop worrying about whether everyone was mad at her and how understanding what happened in her childhood helped her make that change. Plus, she reads a Modern Love essay about a woman who gets a peek at what her parents could have been and how it helps her come to terms with the parents she actually has. Meg Josephson, welcome to Modern Love.
- [03:01]
Meg Josephson
Thank you for having me.
- [03:03]
Anna Martin
First, I want to say I almost cannot express how deeply I relate to the title of your book. It's called are you mad at me? This is a question I find I ask myself in so many relationships in different contexts, some of them very serious, like, oh, my gosh, is my mom mad at me for some fundamental reason? But then also I feel like, you know, after, for example, a recent night out with my friends, the morning after, I found myself texting. And I hope this is kind of a universal experience, but I already think it is. Yes. With my friend, after being like, was I weird? Maybe that joke was a little. Was I speaking too loud? Sometimes my volume control goes out the window. I mean, at the heart of that question, I wasn't saying, are you mad at me? Or are they mad at me? But that's what I. I was seeking confirmation from someone that I wasn't fundamentally, if not bad, then, like, very annoying.
- [03:56]
Meg Josephson
Absolutely. And is. Is how I'm behaving, Is how. How I'm acting satisfying to you? Do you approve of it? Do you like it? Are people viewing me in a way that I'm not aware of, that I need to correct my behavior so that I can be approved of? Once again, tell me about.
- [04:13]
Anna Martin
When you're asking these questions about yourself. What are some other feelings that are associated with this, with this cluster of questions, the you mad at me universe of questions.
- [04:22]
Meg Josephson
Shame is a big one as the. I think the deepest, but I think other emotions and emotions that someone. A fawner, which we can talk about what that means, but someone who relates to this question of are you mad at me? Anger and resentment are really big ones in that we don't allow ourselves to feel them.
- [04:46]
Anna Martin
And a slight smile when you said that. Unpack that smile for me.
- [04:51]
Meg Josephson
Yeah, well, with. With anger. Many of us, usually in childhood were taught, I can't feel anger. My. My parents, my caregivers, can feel anger. And maybe they felt that anger in really extreme ways, whether it was through yelling and rage or silent treatment, but it was not dealt with in a regulated, safe and healthy way. So we learn anger is scary. Anger means love is taken away from me. And when we felt anger growing up, a lot of us were told, you're being dramatic or get over it. We were taught to shove it down. But we also learn, I keep the peace the most when I'm easy and positive and happy to select and curate our emotions. However, those emotions don't go anywhere. They're still there. They just get shoved down into our bodies. And when we shove that anger down, when we shove those needs down again and again, it festers into resentment. And whenever someone's feeling resentful, it's always a sign of, okay, let's tune in a little bit and what's happening here? What needs have to be addressed?
- [06:09]
Anna Martin
Tell me more about this sort of. You mentioned fawning.
- [06:13]
Meg Josephson
Yeah.
- [06:13]
Anna Martin
F, A, W, N. I feel the need to spell it out loud. But fawning, the fawn response. And you mentioned a bit like making ourselves more palatable to people, squishing our emotions down to be pleasing. Tell me more about what the fawn response is and how it relates to this question of Are you mad at me?
- [06:31]
Meg Josephson
Yeah. So Our body has 4 responses to A threat, whether or not that threat is real or perceived. So it doesn't have to be in front of us. It could just be, oh, my boss is being kind of standoffish. To me, that feels threatening. Even though there's not a line in front of you.
- [06:51]
Anna Martin
Right.
- [06:51]
Meg Josephson
We have fight or flight, which a lot of us may be familiar with. Freeze. And the fourth one is the fawn response. And. And the fawn response is about appeasing the threat, trying to be liked by it, satisfying it, trying to impress it or prove yourself to it, really. The fawn response says, my safety comes from pleasing you, and I can't feel regulated until you're regulated. This is not a bad thing. It's a protective thing. And it's an unconscious survival mechanism. And sometimes we need it. We need a paycheck. Sometimes we need to fawn with our boss. Sometimes in society, while surviving in oppressive systems, we have to fawn in order to survive. But when we're doing it as our default way of being, when we're in a fawn response, when we don't need it, when we're actually safe, that's where it leads to burnout, exhaustion, overthinking. Are they mad at me? Overthinking social interactions and avoiding conflict and inability to have hard conversations because we just. We don't want people thinking we disagree with them. And a really big consequence, or maybe result is a better word of a chronic fawn response is feeling like we don't know who we are.
- [08:14]
Anna Martin
I want to break in because you have this example from your book about the sort of. What's the word? Maybe, like, how thoroughly we can internalize this fawning response and this sort of need to placate other people, that we can lose ourselves, as you say. Right. There's this example where I Think you're in a. A Bed, Bath and Beyond. Did I make that up? Okay, yes, you are in a Bed, Bath and Beyond. Tell me that story about the towels.
- [08:39]
Meg Josephson
Well, maybe some background might be helpful or. I grew up in a home that was quite volatile, and there was a lot of rage from my dad. And because of that, I think as my mom's way of coping, a lot of emotional absence for her, I think her way of coping was kind of through dissociation and freezing, and that's how she could make sense of it. And my dad also struggled with addiction as well, so there. There was just a lot going on. So are you mad at me? Was always in my mind. You know, that was really helpful for me growing up. And then when I left, when I moved out, I was. I moved to New York City, and I was looking for towels for my.
- [09:21]
Anna Martin
4X4 apartment, and we called a shoebox in these parts. Yeah, totally.
- [09:27]
Meg Josephson
I'm in the aisle, I'm looking for towels, and there's all these colors in front of me. And I remember. And this is the. Maybe the first instance where I'm not the first, but I'm in an instance where I'm like, okay, I'm choosing this for myself. And I had no. I just. My first thought was, I don't even. I don't know what my favorite color is.
- [09:47]
Anna Martin
How did that thought come to you? It's like you were picking one up and you were like, do I like this?
- [09:51]
Meg Josephson
Like, I was thinking to. Well, my. The second thought that followed that was, let me. Let me go on Instagram and see what other people are doing, or let me see what's. What's trendy right now? And just this immediate shame of who am I? And am I just copying people's personalities? Am I just a medley of other people's personalities and preferences? And what do I want? What do I like? What do I need? That really is such a snapshot of that deeper gap within myself.
- [10:23]
Anna Martin
Yeah. Yeah. Did you open up Instagram and look like. How did you. What color towels did you leave with?
- [10:30]
Meg Josephson
I want to say blue, because probably it was. It's. It's America's favorite color. They say it was probably the most agreeable color.
- [10:38]
Anna Martin
It was the color that was fawning. It was complimenting your sweater.
- [10:41]
Meg Josephson
It was a color. Yeah. Whereas now I really. I've. I. I love green. I love brown. That's my favorite.
- [10:48]
Anna Martin
Wait, I was gonna say if Meg of Now or in those aisles of Bed, Bath and Beyond, what color camels are you going for?
- [10:54]
Meg Josephson
Ooh, definitely, like, an olive green or maybe a lighter green. I love all greens. So soothing. I've gotten so clear on my sense of style and what I like, and I actually feel I have a very now specific preference. And that's a really cool sort of comparison.
- [11:16]
Anna Martin
I think it's a really striking question, a really striking scene. What is my favorite color? You're, like, genuinely asking yourself. And behind that question, of course, is not just a question of color. It's like, who am I? Right? Have I lost myself? After you had that realization, what did you do with it? What were the next steps you took? Or was it years until you sort of began the work to figure out who you were?
- [11:42]
Meg Josephson
That was definitely the beginning of what would be lots of deep processing to come. But I always say healing starts with awareness. And, you know, we really can't heal anything until we're aware of it. So that graduating college, being on my own was really the beginning of having my survival patterns that did really keep me safe. I'm now out of that context. And so now I'm just looking at them, and they're not fitting anymore, but I'm seeing them so much more clearly because I'm seeing these anxious patterns and it manifesting in my body but not really having a, quote, reason to be feeling that way anymore. Yeah, I was still in relationship to my parents, but I wasn't living in that environment.
- [12:31]
Anna Martin
You know, you keep mentioning or connecting these patterns in your adult life to your experience growing up. And I wonder, like, as you began this sort of ongoing work of figuring out what you were doing and why, where were you tracing these behaviors back to? Like, tell me more about you as a kid and how you grew up.
- [12:51]
Meg Josephson
You know, reflecting on parental relationships is so complicated because there's nuance. We have so many moments with our caregivers, or caregiver, depending on your home. And I talk about this. Of the complexity of. I thought it had to be all bad all the time in order for it to impact me, and it wasn't. I felt like my dad kind of had two as a child. I even had this visual there were two of him.
- [13:20]
Anna Martin
You write about that in your book. I was gonna ask you about it.
- [13:22]
Meg Josephson
Yeah. I was like, he was growing up, and I think we hold this fantasy of our parents. And so while I was seeing him through this fantasy lens, he was my best friend, and we had so much. We were so similar, and we were both really, like, creative and impulsive, and, like, we just always, you know, spitball Ideas to each other. That was so fun and he was so hilarious. But then he would switch into this other person that was rageful and really mean and critical. And to my mom and to me, I became sort of the primary target as I became a teenager. And I think that's in part because I was starting to stand up for my mom. And I remember wishing, I wish he was all bad so that I could just decide how I feel. It was so confusing for him to be both of these people at once.
- [14:18]
Anna Martin
Yeah.
- [14:18]
Meg Josephson
And yeah, we would have these big blowups. And I remember I would just like have, you know, be in my room crying and hoping that he would knock on my door and apologize or acknowledge what happened. And this is a really big dynamic that's important of when conflict is brushed under the rug. A parent doesn't take accountability. There's no repair that is so damaging because it's the child. The only way the child can make sense of it is by believing they caused it to happen. And so they go from I did something bad to make dad upset. When that happens again and again and again, it forms the belief of, I am bad. I must be so bad to make my parents so unhappy. And this isn't to say. And I really want to make this clear because I don't want it to seem like, oh, gosh, parents need to be perfect or whatever. There's no perfect parent. There's no perfect anyone. And we're gonna. It's conflict is inevitable and it's good. Like it's friction repair is the most important thing a parent yells. Of course. How could you? Like, we all have our moments, but to after the fact say, hey, I'm really sorry for yelling at you. That was on me. That wasn't your fault. I'm really working on managing my emotions. And I'm gonna. I'm gonna try. And I love you and I'm here. That is so healing for a child or anyone to hear.
- [15:48]
Anna Martin
I'm thinking about. You say the only way a child can make sense of it is to believe that they caused it. And that speaks. That connects to me to the shame. We sort of opened this conversation about I am inherently bad. And maybe when you're feeling that way, you know, you're 31, having anxiety cause you were too loud at the function. You know what I mean? And that's at the core of it. It's like, I can't trace that back to childhood, for example, but sort of that is the thread that's connecting it. Was there a moment or A series of moments. You tell me where you. Where you started to put these pieces together and you realized, like, oh, because of the life that I led as a child and a teen, this is why I'm reacting that way as an adult. Was there like a moment on your therapist's couch or like, was there an aha moment for you or was it. Was it different than that?
- [16:41]
Meg Josephson
I would say there were a lot of moments, but it started with just an insufferable amount of anxiety in my body, in my mind, that I felt in college. And I actually met my husband in college. We were 19.
- [16:56]
Anna Martin
Wow.
- [16:57]
Meg Josephson
Right off the bat, he was just such a safe, steady person. Has never yelled at me, has never lied to me. And that was so wild. I noticed just so much fearful thinking around him where I knew my body, my intuition trusted that he was safe, but my thoughts were, he's gonna flip. Just wait, you're gonna say the wrong thing, and he's going to turn into someone that you don't know, and he'll. He'll get drunk and something horrible will happen or something. Something like that. And so, yeah, it just felt. It felt quite. It felt quite confusing at that time. But, you know, it's. I don't. I don't want to make it sound like there's this distinct, oh, I was in childhood and then I went to adulthood. And now I can see the clear, because I actually. I'd say some of my most traumatic memories were actually from my 20s with my parents, because that's where a lot of emotional. The emotional neglect started to happen, which I think is in part why I was drawn to the essay that we'll read today. Yeah, yeah, but I don't want to. I don't want the distinction to be so sharp, but rather just a point to how this anxious thinking, this, are you mad at me? Thinking, am I in trouble? Thinking was helpful. And then it started to not feel so helpful when I was no longer in that environment.
- [18:28]
Anna Martin
I really appreciate what you're saying. It's like so much work can happen, so much healing can happen by just living in relationships that feel good. And two, to recognize the things that we. That we carry right from early relationships, in your case, you know, from the way you were raised from your childhood. This idea of, like the sort of legacy, like I said, the things we carry from our early relationships, it's reminding me a lot of the modern love essay you chose to read today. This is an essay about our complex relationships with parents, our own, other people's. It's called My Three Years As a Beloved Daughter by Aaron Brown. Can you speak a little bit about why you were drawn to this essay and why you chose it?
- [19:14]
Meg Josephson
Yes. This essay is so, so sharply speaks to a feeling of, Oof. Grief for what we don't have and longing, envy. Seeing other people have what we want in a relationship. But I was also drawn to the essay because my dad actually passed away in January, which is two days after I turned in the final manuscript for the book, which was so confusing because I grieved the hope that he would change. And I think that comes through in the essay a lot. Hope that if I'm. If I'm just. And this is the fawn response, hard at work, if I'm just better, if I'm just good enough, if I just achieve enough, if I'm just easy enough and pleasant enough, he'll like me more. And grieving that, you know, his reactivity has nothing to do with me and it's. I can't. I can't fix him. I can't change him. This is the extent of what he can give me in this lifetime.
- [20:22]
Anna Martin
This essay encapsulates a certain. Like, a longing for our parents to be different or for the. For the author has this hope that maybe her parents will give her something she was missing. And it sounds like you're saying you resonate with that, that longing, that hope.
- [20:41]
Meg Josephson
Oh, gosh, yeah. So much. So much. This longing of. I mean, I remember having this feeling as a child. I would go home. I'd be at home for Christmas or whatever, and having this feeling of, I want to go home.
- [20:58]
Anna Martin
You'd be at home and you'd.
- [21:00]
Meg Josephson
I'm at home and I'm feeling like I want to go home. Like, it's not. It's not this. Isn't it? So, yeah, that longing is so strong. And I don't think we have in our society a lot of words for it. I think we talk a lot about grief when someone has passed, but I don't think we talk about this type of grief, of grieving what we don't have, grieving what will never be as much.
- [21:24]
Anna Martin
When we come back, Meg Josephson reads the essay My Three Years as a Beloved Daughter by Erin Brown.
- [21:37]
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- [22:00]
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- [23:14]
Meg Josephson
My three years as a Beloved Daughter by Erin Brown When I turned 29, my parents called from Boise with birthday wishes, but they soon moved on to how the wildfires in Idaho were the worst they had seen in years. Their voices were somehow softer for the distance, and I knew they had more pressing things on their mind than their grown daughter's birthday. With the lonesome click of the telephone behind me, I thought about my other family and the parents who wouldn't be calling, the parents who believed that no daughter is ever too old for a birthday, party, for the cake and the tiara. For three years while I was living in New York, my best friend's parents loved me. They loved me because of how much they loved their daughter, a devotion I witnessed at Thanksgiving, Easter, graduation dinners and birthdays, those occasions when I left the city with my friend to visit them. There was even one year when I was stuck in the city with a Christmas Eve bartending shift. The next day, feeling urban and weathered and brave, I boarded the Metro north commuter train at Grand Central Terminal and headed to Westport, Connecticut, to the home that felt as if it were almost mine. I had packed a tote accordingly and had filled it with a small batch of wrapped gifts, a photo frame from a boutique in Parkslow, Brooklyn, books by Barbara Ehrenreich and Paul Bowles, silver earrings from the holiday market at Bryant park in Manhattan, and a bottle of wine I knew they would Tell me it was too much that I shouldn't have, really. But I knew also that they would have gifts for me. And besides, I was grateful for the invitation, grateful to be enveloped yet again in the heavy quilt of this family's love. And they love their daughter. They love her. In trying to explain the appeal of their relationship to my other friends, I would find myself at a loss, as if I had been asked to capture in a few words the wonders of the Grand Canyon or the Costa Rican rainforests. You don't understand, I would say, widening my eyes and shaking my head. They just love her. Theirs was a family of abundance, of love, intellect, ambition, food. Shrimp cocktail, cosmos and long stemmed martini glasses. Goat cheese with cranberries, sirloin, apricots dipped in chocolate, margaritas, wine, port. I would eat until my eyes glassed over. I was sure that even my own wedding would not compare to the luxury of eating a holiday meal with my east coast family. Pleasure was always a main course at their table, and I hungrily devoured their effortless enjoyment of one another. There was an intense loyalty in this family that I had not encountered before. I assumed it must have something to do with vacations in Hawaii, carpooling to soccer games, all the things that my childhood lacked. My best friend's father took great interest in her career. Whenever she talked about her struggles at the office, he listened attentively, inevitably taking her side. We could see the blood rise and worried that he would make calls on her behalf. Her mother was less direct. She merely sat shiva for every person who wronged her children, not out of mourning, but as a ceremonial acknowledgment of the fact that the person had ceased to exist. It didn't matter that she was a staunch Episcopalian. Dead to me, she would say whenever the name of an ex boyfriend came up in conversation. I don't even know that name. I secretly wished for an ex boyfriend worthy of her ire. In every family there are certain roles to be filled, and my role was to offer a kind of self deprecating comic relief. I entertained the tables with stories from the Peace Corps in which I was the star and during which I often found myself flapping my arms around or pointing ridiculously at my own head and bless them. They laughed. I am sure that my desperate need to be adored. My clinging vulnerability was not lost on my friends parents. I had jokes from Africa, I had jokes from the bar, and they laughed and loved me for it. They loved the fact that I was a bartender, possibly because it meant that their own daughter was not. Make no mistake, my own parents loved me. It's just that their love was manifested in ways that I began to see as indicative of an east west divide. When I left home, it was as if my parents had sent me off in a covered wagon to claim my own plot of land in the valley. Everything I needed, they assumed, was already in the wagon. They respected my autonomy, thought that bartending was an adventure almost as worthwhile as the Peace Corps, and believed that it was better to be mildly poor with an abundance of vacation time and the promise of great things than to be gainfully employed and disappointed. They sent money to fill occasional holes in my budget, but they didn't lavish me with gifts and praise, and they didn't worry about me. The time for worry had passed. My independence was something I had fought for throughout high school, having finally won it by the twin defaults of age and distance. My I was uneasy with my parents quiet faith in my abilities. My east coast family's love was tangible. It was fine wine and heavy cream, knitted scarves and photo albums. I envied the concern and adulation that they bestowed upon their daughter. I wanted some for myself. When I got into graduate school, I called my family in the west, but my east coast family called me. They were so proud and said it we're so proud. I thought I might remain a member of my east coast family forever, but families often split up, even the most attractive ones, and mine was no different. My best friend and I had often joked about the conflicting patterns of our personalities, as though the differences between us excused the friendship from the trivial spats that other friends routinely endured. Perhaps we knew all along that there could never be a small fight between us, only a big one. And eventually it happened. We had our big fight. We argued ourselves up to the stubborn wall of apology, and neither of us could scale it. I think it surprised both of us how tenuous our friendship really was. Bitter words, all the hurt that a too close relationship can nurture. Phones turned off. And just like that, three months passed. Thanksgiving came and went with no word from my friend or her parents. Stranded on the East Coast, I was host to my own dinner and invited all the wayward souls I knew. I pretended not to wait for my phone to ring, though I carried it in the pocket of my apron as I mistakenly prepared enough mashed potatoes for all the urchins in a Dickens novel. But Christmas? Surely I would hear from them at Christmas. I knew my friend would not call, would probably never call. What I wanted was to hear from her parents. I wanted them to forgive me for my part in losing the friendship, to tell me I was still theirs, even if they couldn't claim me. I wanted to be able to bask in their love, the same unconditional love they reserved for their children. Was this too much to desire? I knew my own parents would not judge any friend who broke with me. But I also knew that they took less notice of my relationships, were less emotionally invested in the details of my life. My friend's parents knew the names of all of her friends since Montessori. They knew the names of the girls who had slighted her in the sixth grade, and they casually shunned those girls parents at dinner parties and farmers markets. My parents were more egalitarian when it came to the dramas of my life. If there was a rift, they would be certain that I had done my part to widen it, and they would tilt their heads and raise their eyebrows whenever I described an argument. Why do you think she might feel this way? They would ask. This was not the kind of support I was looking for. In a way, though, it was what I wanted my friend's parents to offer her. I had mistrusted my own family's mild temperament, thinking that it indicated a lack of concern or feeling. Now I wished that my east coast parents would adopt some aspects of my Western parents Infuriating impartiality, search for balance. Look at it from my point of view. I felt like a squalling sibling tugging on their sleeves, crying, not just my fault, not just my fault. When a friendship ends, you start to measure time by what your friend had missed. In the two years that have passed, I broke up with some boyfriends. I was mugged at knifepoint. My sister married. I wrote one unpublished book review, then another. Through all of the changes that a couple of years bring, both monumental and ridiculous, I missed my friend. I missed her sarcasm, her insight, her mother, her father, how they would have understood my frustrations, fed me potatoes and torts to assuage my boy. Grief expressed indignation at the rejection slips that kept piling up next to my computer. Without my east coast family's mafioso loyalty, my achievements seemed less shiny, my disappointments more foreboding. I thought about sending them a card. Have you sat shiva for me yet? I worried that they would not think it was funny. I worried that they would not answer. I imagined dinner parties, trays of canapes being passed. I imagined someone bringing my name up at the table. I could see my friend's mother stop chewing, narrow her eyes a wagging finger. Not in this house. It was too much. I never wrote. In the end, I realized that I adored my friend's parents for the exact reason that I would not hear from them because they loved their daughter so fiercely, so actively, so unswervingly. Theirs was a glaring and glorious spotlight of love with a sharp, defined edge. And I had stepped out.
- [34:27]
Anna Martin
We'll be right back.
- [34:32]
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- [35:31]
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- [36:13]
Meg Josephson
So good.
- [36:15]
Anna Martin
Tell me what you're thinking in the immediate after reading that essay.
- [36:20]
Meg Josephson
So I like the parts of me just those moments were so, so resonant. What really resonates the most is just this emotional neglect of not being known by your own parents. And I actually felt this the Most in my 20s when I had left where I realized I was always the one to call, it felt like I was the if I wanted nurturing, I had to do it myself. I would make myself soup and tea when I was sick as a child. But as I got older when we weren't under the same roof anymore, I realized I don't know if my dad knows me or cares to know me. And the wedding line brought up this of I wasn't sure he would show up to my wedding and not because he loved My husband. I just didn't know if he thought it was worth the effort of flying.
- [37:25]
Anna Martin
My gosh, Meg, that is really sad. I'm so sorry to hear that.
- [37:29]
Meg Josephson
But he did show up and we had. We did a father daughter dance. And it was sweet, but, you know, it was just always in the back of my mind. And I share in the book. My mom started showing symptoms of Alzheimer's when I was 19, and she was 59. She's still alive. She's 70 and I'm 30. But so much of it's been so weird because in many ways it feels like she's passed. It felt like almost she passed the day she went into a memory care facility. I remember I just wanted to talk about my mom. I missed my mom. And I called him just hoping to connect. And I said, I really miss. We're talking and chatting. And I said, I really miss Mom. And I started to cry. He said, should I let you go?
- [38:17]
Anna Martin
Wow.
- [38:18]
Meg Josephson
And I said, because I'm crying. He was like, yeah, he just didn't have.
- [38:24]
Anna Martin
And you wanted to talk about how difficult it was to be clear to lose her. To alter she was still alive, but to feel her moment.
- [38:32]
Meg Josephson
Yeah. I wanted to connect with him about. We're both grieving the same person. And there aren't many people who can relate to grieving this person. And I think he hung up.
- [38:42]
Anna Martin
You know, when you called your dad and started crying about your mom, what did you want from him? What were you looking for in that moment?
- [38:52]
Meg Josephson
I think just to be heard or just to say, yeah, it's hard. It is so hard. I miss her, too.
- [38:59]
Anna Martin
Yeah. For him to be there with you.
- [39:01]
Meg Josephson
Yeah. Just to be there. To be there. But I really think the essay in general, and this is an example, a sliver of that. Just to not feel known. And I remember actually. Oh, this really stood out to me, the essay. 2. I never had parents that were shaping me. I was so on my own. Where. And it. In some growing up, I was like, this is amazing. I have so much freedom and they trust me so much.
- [39:31]
Anna Martin
Yeah.
- [39:32]
Meg Josephson
And I. And then I went to college. I remember people calling their parents and being like, hey, Mom, I had. Can I have your advice about this or what? Like, I'm thinking about getting a job and this. Like, what do you. They would get guidance from their parents and remember just calling. Never had that. Like, I just always had to figure things out on my own. And I didn't have that. We've got you sort of energy from a parent.
- [40:00]
Anna Martin
Yeah.
- [40:00]
Meg Josephson
To just and just not. It's just, it's this longing feeling of not feeling like my parents knew my life, my friends, what I was interested in, my favorite candy or like what. They just didn't know those things. And yes, they were just so. They had so much suffering, so much pain happening. How could they possibly have time to know my life? But you know, to a child and to a teenager, it feels bad.
- [40:31]
Anna Martin
So, yeah, when I'm hearing you talk about your own parents, it's really striking to me in a beautiful way. Like you are doing this, holding both yourself. Right. You're explaining these really painful moments and these sort of painful, heavy things that you carry. But at the same time, you have so much compassion for the pain they were going through. And I wonder how you arrived there because it is not easy. We talked about anger before and I'm not sensing that from you. I mean, you know, in this conversation. So how did you arrive at this place of compassion for parents that in other ways you felt let you down in quite significant ways.
- [41:15]
Meg Josephson
Yeah. You know, and I actually, I feel a little allergic to language of it's your parents first time living too, or something like that. I actually, I don't love that too much because while it may be true, I think it's. It can feel invalidating of if I'm working with a client who's. Oh, but it's their first time living too. Maybe I shouldn't be feeling upset or angry, but it's your first time living too, and you can be hurt. It's okay. And so the way I kind of view it is understanding why they did it, understanding the pain they must have been in to cause that damage. It doesn't excuse it, but it explains it. And my goal was always just arriving at neutrality to take it a little less personally because it felt so personal growing up. It felt so personal that how could it not?
- [42:13]
Anna Martin
Of course not. Yeah.
- [42:15]
Meg Josephson
So just unraveling that it is about their own pain has been helpful. And again, that's not to excuse it, but just to understand it. I think we often maybe feel we are bad if we're not feeling compassionate or we need to rush to compassion or forgiveness, or we need to almost perform compassion to show people that, oh yeah, we are good people. And my parents did try their best. And I think compassion arises naturally when we allow all of the parts of our inner experience to be where I couldn't be at this place of neutrality. And again, this neutrality does have waves of anger and grief and longing as well to note. Yeah, but I couldn't have. I couldn't be here if I didn't feel 10 years of anger. Like, I was angry. I was so angry and upset and raw. And it's not my default way of being anymore because I felt it. I let myself feel it. And I'm so glad I did. And I will continue to allow myself to feel it when it arises, but it just doesn't feel as present anymore.
- [43:33]
Anna Martin
In the process of sort of working towards this neutrality, this compassion towards really your younger self and acknowledging the pain that your parents had when they were raising you, I wonder if you ever had a kind of conversation with them, either together or separately, about this work you were doing about these things that you're carrying from your childhood. Like, did you ever directly address these feelings that you were having with them?
- [44:05]
Meg Josephson
You know, with my mom, I never really got the chance. And I have this memory actually of my dad was yelling at me and my mom was sitting there watching, which was often the case because, you know, she was just dissociating and freezing and that's how she could cope. And I remember her coming up to my room and checking on me after the fact.
- [44:33]
Anna Martin
How old were you during this?
- [44:35]
Meg Josephson
I think I went home from. I was in college and I went home, or maybe it was high school, but somewhere in that area, I was at least, you know, teen. And this is the first time I ever expressed this to her. I said, you are just sitting there and you're not saying anything. How are you just sitting there and not saying anything? And I really feel that that was the first moment I got through to her.
- [45:02]
Anna Martin
Wow.
- [45:03]
Meg Josephson
It felt like the first moment where she heard me of. Oh. Because her mom did the same.
- [45:10]
Anna Martin
Wow.
- [45:11]
Meg Josephson
My mom experienced quite a lot of abuse in her childhood and her mom knew and didn't do anything. And I felt, of course, my mom was just thinking, how can I improve upon my parents? And maybe because I wasn't physically abused or anything like that, she was like, I did it. I broke the cycle. And she did. She broke that cycle. And I really believe, you know, our parents weaknesses become our own strengths because we're all just choosing something to improve upon from our parents. And we're doing that. And if I have children one day, I'm sure they'll go to therapy for something I did. And that's okay.
- [45:55]
Anna Martin
I only have one final question for you, which is, are you mad at me? No, just kidding.
- [45:59]
Meg Josephson
I had to try.
- [46:00]
Anna Martin
I had to try. Thank you, Meg Josephson. Thank you so much for this conversation. I so appreciate it.
- [46:08]
Meg Josephson
Thank you for having me.
- [46:12]
Anna Martin
The Modern Love team is Amy Pearl, Christina Josa, Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Reeva Goldberg and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Elisa Gutierrez with help from Reeva Goldberg and Davis Land. It was edited by Davis Land and Jen Poyant. This episode was mixed by Sonia Herrero with studio support from Matty Masiello and Nick Pittman. Our video team is Brooke Minters, Sophie Erickson, Alfredo Chiarapa and Sawyer Roque. The Modern Love theme music is by Dan Powell. Original music in this episode by Dan Powell, Pat McCusker, Diane Wong and Carol Savaro. Special thanks to Mihima Chablani, Jeffrey Miranda and Kathleen o'.
- [46:57]
Advertiser 2
Brien.
- [46:58]
Anna Martin
The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones. Mia Lee is the editor and of Modern Love Projects. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we have the instructions in our Show Notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.
- [47:26]
Advertiser 1
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