Sam Graham Felson (3:10)

It's really fun to be back.

Anna Martin (3:12)

Sam, the last time we had you on the show, you'd written this big New York Times magazine story about friendship between men. Now you've written another piece for the magazine. And just a note, your wife is an editor at the magazine. The story is called I tried to toughen up my son. Things didn't go as planned. There's a laughter. There's a lot behind that laugh. We'll get into what happened, but first I want to know why. Why did you think your son needed to be tough?

Sam Graham Felson (3:42)

So my son really reminds me of what I was like as a kid. I was sensitive, I had passionate interests. I guess you could call that nerdy. Unlike my son, I was so desperate to be cool that I forced myself to get good at basketball by spending a million hours, you know, shooting layups in my backyard. My son has no interest in sports. In fact, he hates sports so much. This is funny, the other day he like drew a picture of like a ray gun and he was like, this is called the sports gun. It's a special kind of like laser gun that, that will shoot all the balls in the universe so I'll never have to play a sport.

Anna Martin (4:22)

Well, that is genius. The ray gun in this pict shoots the balls in the universe. They disappear. What does he want to do when the ray guns is.

Sam Graham Felson (4:30)

He wants to, instead of at recess being pressured to play soccer or basketball or whatever, he wants to, you know, do his imaginary larping type games or whatever he does. But yeah, he wants to be in his world of imagination. He wants to, you know, turn over logs and see what insects are underneath them. I mean, I remember when I took him to a birthday party. It happened to be at like this indoor basketball facility and the other kids were like sick at basketball. And like my son had never played basketball. So he's like, you know, if you're listening to this son, I hope this doesn't embarrass you. But he was like, you know, dribbling the wrong way down the court, that kind of stuff, like just didn't even know what was going on. And I realized it's like you asked me about. About toughness, and now I'm just talking about sports. And they are different. They are different things. And. But. But I think the way in which it's connected is it comes from the feeling that for boys, at least when I was a boy, right. If you're not good at sports, it's kind of a wrap. Like, you're not gonna be cool, you're not gonna make friends. It's funny. Like, when I think back, I still remember the kid who got picked last. It's not like, do I give a crap about whether or not my son's gonna play college basketball or. Of course not. What I give a crap about is that I just don't want him to be somebody who gets bullied or even made fun of or just excluded from the group. And if he wants to do theater and nature stuff and whatever, science stuff, he loves science, like, great. But I then had the thought, I'm like, I want him to at least develop some toughness and resilience. Because if he gets picked on for being different, for not having the bro interest that all the other bros have, for being the kid at the birthday party that doesn't know how to play sports, you can do that. But I think, like, the way to pull that off is, like, you have to have a really solid sense of confidence. You have to have a solid sense of, like, if someone tries to push me around, like, I'm going to stand up for myself and be like, yeah, I'm different, and fuck off. Like, I enrolled him in a karate school, and when you're first starting out in karate, it's basically like dance class. Like, you're just doing like, 20 different movements in a row. And so you're just practicing the movements, right? And once you get to orange belt, it's the first time where you have to do something scary, right? Once you have orange belt, you have to buy all this new equipment. You get these pads, you get foot pads, you get all. You get a helmet because you start fighting other kids.

Anna Martin (7:10)

Yeah.

Sam Graham Felson (7:11)

But, like, he couldn't do it. Like, he was afraid of.

Anna Martin (7:14)

He's fight other kids.

Sam Graham Felson (7:15)

He was afraid of getting hit, but he was also afraid of hitting. And it just, like, it was misery for him. It was even worse than playing basketball in some ways. And he was just like, I'm not. And I really tried to encourage him. I'm like, listen, there's pads on. There's no way you're gonna get hurt. There's no way you're gonna hurt someone else, but, like, he just couldn't do it. So, like, after I dropped, like, hundreds of dollars on these pads, he dropped out, like, the next day. But, yeah.

Anna Martin (7:35)

Did he go to class? Like, was there a. Were you at a class where they were sparring and he just couldn't do it, or was it. Is there a mem of something like that?

Sam Graham Felson (7:44)

Yeah, I mean, he wanted to quit right away. And I. And I kept. I kept pushing him to go back, but he would just kind of stand there. Another kid would be like, yeah, there would be, like, another kid just, like, punching, punching, punching. And he would just kind of stand there until the sensei was like, all right, the other guy won. And I probably even, like, said from the sidelines, I'd be like, dude, you gotta go on the offensive, too. You can't just stand there, like, getting hit. You do have. That's the sport. You have to hit back.

Anna Martin (8:11)

You have to defend yourself.

Sam Graham Felson (8:13)

Yeah. And then he would just do, like, a very tepid kind of, like, tap type thing and go back to just standing there frozen. Like, he really didn't want to punch or kick. You could also kick. And karate, he didn't want to do either. And I was just like, all right, okay, okay. You don't have to do this stuff.

Anna Martin (8:33)

One thing I want to get into a little more specifically here is something you're bringing up, which I think is interesting, which is the sort of interplay between toughness and violence, right? Because in this karate, you know, situation, you're not only encouraging him to hit back, you want him to protect himself.

Lori Leibovich (8:51)

Why?

Anna Martin (8:53)

Did you feel like. Or did you feel like your son needed to be able to fight, or was it not about fighting?

Sam Graham Felson (9:00)

So this is, like, the central question for me is like, can you instill a sense of resilience and toughness and self confidence and even maybe swagger in a boy and be against violence. Right? Be totally against violence. Right. And so the question I had is, like, I also abhor violence. And yet, like, if you teach your kids martial arts, it's not just learning how to block.

Anna Martin (9:35)

Yeah, yeah.

Sam Graham Felson (9:36)

Look all, like, I have to say, like, I still don't know how I feel about this question of violence. I still don't have the answers. But what I was trying to figure out, like, as I dug deeper inside of myself, is, like, what is your actual position on violence vis a vis raising a son? Do you actually think that it is the right thing to do to tell him that he has to be willing to. To punch someone in the face and break their nose and cause blood to stream out of their nostrils if it comes to it? Or do you actually think that is never worth it, that it's never okay to harm another human being? And what are the ramifications for either of those choices?

Anna Martin (10:19)

Right, Right.

Sam Graham Felson (10:20)

If he is the punch the guy in the nose and break his nose and watch the bloodstream out of his nostrils guy, there are some serious consequences to that. And if he is the turn the other cheek guy or the runaway guy, which is what I was like as a kid, there's also some serious consequences to that.

Anna Martin (10:36)

You were the turn the other cheek kid growing up.

Sam Graham Felson (10:40)

Yeah.

Anna Martin (10:40)

Paint me a picture of that. What did that look like for you.

Sam Graham Felson (10:42)

Young Sam, when I was younger, like, and maybe I'm being too hard on myself in my memories, but when I was younger, I feel like when there were inflection points for me, like when there was a scary thing, I would run away or I would just avoid the situation or I would quit. The moments that fill me with the greatest shame. And I don't have a lot of shame in my life, but I do have shame about certain moments from my childhood. Like, I remember there were these kids, some of them were in this like, gang quote, unquote. Maybe it was a gang. Maybe they just called it that. I mean, These are like 13 year old kids. Right?

Anna Martin (11:27)

Right.

Sam Graham Felson (11:28)

I think the group was called the JP Dog Pound. That was their nickname. But me and my. And my buddies, actually. Rob, who.

Anna Martin (11:35)

Oh my God, Rob. Features heavily in our previous conversation.

Sam Graham Felson (11:38)

Yeah. For those who listen to the last five. You know, I wrote the essay that I wrote. A lot of it was about my best friend from childhood, Rob. And we were playing basketball with them and one of the kids from the Dog Pound kept calling foul on like bullshit things. Like when no one was fouling him, basically he was cheating. He kept being like, foul, foul, foul. So that he could get the ball back and get an advantage. And Rob just called him out at one point. He's like, bro, that's bullshit. No one's fouling you. And the kid got really riled up by that and he grabbed Rob and kind of throttled him and pressed him up against this chain link fence. And he basically was like, I'm gonna beat the fuck out of you. And I didn't run away, but I remember I just stood there frozen, like. And. And the kid didn't end up beating up Rob, but like he held him up against this fence, throttling him. It was like a scary moment. And I just, like, didn't. Didn't do anything to try to defend him and step up and, like, and help him and. And he felt abandoned in that moment. And justifiably, he gave me a hard time about it. But, like, that is, like, one of the moments where I look back on my childhood and I'm like, I. My fear of violence in that moment led to me doing the wrong thing for my friend. Like, I abandoned my friend because I was afraid of violence. And there were other incidents where, like, look, I grew up in the city. I mean, I don't know what it's like nowadays, but, like, there were a lot of fights. There were, like, a lot of fights. There were fights at the bus stop. There were fights, like, in the schoolyard, and there were, like, group fights at parties where, like, people got badly hurt.

Anna Martin (13:20)

Yeah.

Sam Graham Felson (13:21)

And I just never participated in them. I would always find a way to, like, slink off somewhere and just, like, make myself scarce when. When a fight broke out and my friends all. All knew it and gave me a hard time about it and called me all kinds of epithets.

Anna Martin (13:36)

What would they call you?

Sam Graham Felson (13:38)

Pussy? Gay?

Anna Martin (13:39)

Wow. Yeah. Bitch. Yeah.

Sam Graham Felson (13:41)

Bitch, probably. Bitch probably more than anything else.

Anna Martin (13:43)

And when you were walking home from the basketball court or the party or where you didn't get involved in a fight, you didn't stand up, you didn't do it, what thoughts were you thinking about yourself?

Sam Graham Felson (13:57)

My thought was, Sam Graham Felson is a little bitch. You're a bitch. You're a bitch. You're a bit like. I was beating the shit out of myself internally. I felt like a piece of shit. I felt really. There was this phrase in Teddy Roosevelt's autobiography that really struck me where after he had been mugged as a boy, he said, I felt like a predestined victim. And I just. I really related to that. I felt like I was a predestined victim. Like, no matter what the situation was, I was a bitch. Right. I was not gonna be the guy who stood up. And I'll tell you, like, this is why, like, I cared about thinking through this stuff in raising my own son, because I felt really bad about this stuff growing up. And it affected other areas of my life.

Anna Martin (14:50)

How?

Sam Graham Felson (14:50)

Yeah, I was afraid to dance on a dance floor with girls or just.

Anna Martin (14:57)

Even dance in general.

Sam Graham Felson (14:59)

In general, but especially with girls. I was afraid of girls. And, like, not. Not only was I terrified of asking a girl out, but I was afraid to say yes when a girl asked me out, because I think on some level, I was Just like, well, I'm a bitch, so a bitch can't have a girlfriend. Only a man can. Someone who's really secure in their masculinity can have a girlfriend. And probably on some unconscious level, I'm thinking, am I even gonna know how to kiss a girl? Am I gonna know how to do all this shit? But it all comes from the idea of being a physical coward. And if I'm physically afraid to fight, maybe I'm physically afraid to dance. Maybe I'm physically afraid to kiss, too. It had all these different effects on the way that I saw myself, but I'll say, like, it extended even beyond that. Like, I was not a good student as a kid. I was in danger of flunking out of my high school because I didn't have the confidence to learn. Like, I thought. I thought, I'm like a loser, basically, or I'm like a victim. I'm a coward. So, like, when something was hard for me, like math, for example, I was just like, I'm not going to be able to get it.

Anna Martin (16:10)

And this is all because you felt weak or because you couldn't fight. All of those things came from that core.

Sam Graham Felson (16:19)

I mean, if there was, like, a professional therapist in the room, they might say, well, it was really about all these other things. And of course it always.

Anna Martin (16:28)

It's about your mom.

Sam Graham Felson (16:29)

It is about. Yeah, it's about a million other things to it. But I think that the core thing was that I had low self confidence. And now as an adult who's really into fitness and really into, like, self improvement in lots of other ways, the kind of cornerstone of, like, how I live my life is that, like, you actually can get better at pretty much anything, but you have to deal with, like, doing some painful practice and sucking at it at first and then being okay with that and continuing to go and, like, not giving up. And so my whole life is built around, like, strategies for not giving up and, and, and believing, like, having this faith that practice makes you better. As a kid, I just didn't. I didn't have that. And again, like, is it all because I was afraid to fight? No. But there was something fundamental about the idea that on the most elemental level, when it really came down to it, on the streets, in the schoolyard, on the basketball court, I was not going to rise up and protect myself.

Anna Martin (17:40)

And all of these memories that are clearly so vivid to you from your childhood are present with you as you're raising your son. And so to me, like, knowing this backstory puts such a Different valence on, you know, the scene of you watching your son get punched in karate class. Right. It's not just about him getting punched or him not defending himself. I mean, you tell me, but you're probably thinking of yourself in that moment. You're thinking of him. I mean, there's all these. There's all of this stuff that's being brought up by raising a son.

Sam Graham Felson (18:15)

And I remember, like, I have a daughter, too, but my son is me and my wife's first kid. And I remember, like, when we saw the sonogram image and realized we were having a boy, I immediately, you know, I was very moved by the idea of, like, the challenge of what it's going to be like to raise a son. And I immediately thought, like, the minute I saw that sonogram image, I thought, the challenge of my life as a father is gonna be how to raise a boy who becomes a man who is a good person, who feels good about himself. And having someone who feels good about himself, I think increases the likelihood that he will be the kind of person who can take care of other people and respect other people and radiate goodness and kindness. And once I started to see my son's personality come out, when, you know, like, kids, when they're. Before they're two, they don't really have a personality. They're just like blobs of blubber, basically. But, like, they went. Once he started to have a personality, I'm like, all right, this kid is a chip off the old block. Like, he's really like me in a lot of ways. And my daughter, by the way, not. Not like that. Like, she doesn't walk around afraid of a lot of stuff, but he does. And I said, all right, you know, he's really like me in a lot of ways, and I want to help him get to the place where I am now a lot faster than I got to it.

Anna Martin (19:46)

We'll be right back.

Sam Graham Felson (20:01)

Foreign.

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Anna Martin (21:45)

So what was your plan to, you know, train's the wrong word? Let's just say your plan to sort of toughen up your son, to teach him resilience.

Sam Graham Felson (21:56)

So it wasn't totally premeditated. It was a little bit premeditated. I'll start by saying my son has always had an obsessive personality. His current obsession, which has been an obsession for, like, a year and a half, is national parks. He loves national parks. And as he got more interested in the national parks, he started doing more of his own research and really fell in love with Teddy Roosevelt, who I hadn't really known this, but Teddy Roosevelt is kind of seen as the godfather of the national parks because he didn't found the national parks as an idea, but he, like, basically expanded them like crazy. So my son got more and more interested in Teddy Roosevelt.

Anna Martin (22:40)

And how old is he at this time? Right now?

Sam Graham Felson (22:41)

Eight.

Anna Martin (22:42)

Eight.

Sam Graham Felson (22:42)

And I said, you know what? Like, now that you're getting so into this, let's spend a whole week. I'll let you pick any park. And he was like, I want to go to the Badlands. I want to go to Teddy Roosevelt national park in the Badlands.

Anna Martin (22:53)

And where is that in the.

Sam Graham Felson (22:54)

That's in North Dakota. And I was like, great. And then, like, very quickly clicked for me. I'm like, first of all, the Badlands. Like, I'd never been to the Badlands. I'd always dreamed of going to the Badlands.

Anna Martin (23:05)

It's.

Sam Graham Felson (23:06)

It's a badass place. It's like, sounds like it. It's the Wild West. It is the wild West. It's like, it's in the middle of nowhere. There's nothing nearby. Like, you have to drive for a while to get out there. It's the frontier. It's a hard land filled with rocks, basically. And it's a place where this is where Teddy Roosevelt actually went when he was in his 20s.

Anna Martin (23:28)

I mean, it's like masculinity kind of embodied, right? There's like rocks and bison and like, sheer faces of big drops.

Sam Graham Felson (23:34)

It is exactly that. It's like, it's like, I mean, it's what you think of as the Wild west, right? And so, like, you know, there was something like, kind of amusing to me about, like, going to this iconic macho place with my son. But what really started to get my wheels turning was reading about Teddy Roosevelt and what happened to him out there and knowing that, like, Teddy Roosevelt, like me, like my son was actually a huge nerd as a little kid and a hugely fearful little kid. Teddy Roosevelt got his ass beat as a little kid. He was so scared to leave his house that he needed his little brother to walk around with him for protection, right? So Teddy Roosevelt now, like, we think of him as like, the iconic man, right? Like the guy with the big mustache and like, the hunter's rifle and like, all the, like, trophies of animals on his wall. And, like, if you listen to any of these bro podcasts, people quote Teddy Roosevelt all the time. Huh? He's LeBron James. Writes a Teddy Roosevelt quote on his shoes before basketball games every night.

Anna Martin (24:36)

Everything comes back to basketball with you.

Sam Graham Felson (24:38)

It really does. Yeah. So once I started thinking about all this, I'm like, I just got kind of tickled by the idea of, like, this is going to be a real full weekend to weekend, nine day road trip, A father son road trip. And I was thinking, like, let's do this. Like, let's have a road trip where I get to explore what it means to be like a man with my son in a place that was this iconic, you know, site of masculinity and an iconic, formative location for my son's hero, Teddy Roosevelt. So it just felt like weird, all.

Anna Martin (25:12)

The ingredients, I mean, it really is. It's like the austere landscape, the harshness of the physical tasks to navigate that landscape. When you finally get to the park itself, what are you hoping will happen? What is your, like, dream outcome for this trip with your son?

Sam Graham Felson (25:30)

So, like, I had some early fantasy of, like, oh, let's live like Teddy Roosevelt did. Like, let's go find some, like, dude ranch and, like, ride around on horses and, like, get dirty and, like, do the tough things that Teddy Roosevelt had to do on the land. Then I realized that would not Be a very fun vacation for my son. I'm like, I'm not gonna force him to do that. I don't think it would have been fun for me either, really. What I. What I wanted to do was like, he is eight at this point, and I'm like, he's old enough to start going on real hikes. Like, before, it was like, a hike would be like a walk around a pond that took, like, 15 minutes. Right. So a lot of it was just, I want to push him to do harder hikes than he's ever done and see if he can deal. Because it's not.

Anna Martin (26:18)

Because that's the discomfort, that's the resilience. So let's go on this hike. That is pushing it a little. It sounds like, first. I mean, it's kind of young to be going on a. I don't know how. How.

Sam Graham Felson (26:29)

You know, the first hike that I tried to do with him was three miles. Okay, that's a. Which is a fair. Yeah.

Anna Martin (26:36)

So tell me how that went. Did you tell him how long it was gonna be?

Sam Graham Felson (26:39)

Not really. I pulled the trick that my dad used to pull on me, being like, oh, it'll be fine. It's like, up and back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That kind of thing. So you set out, and within minutes, he's like, I'm hungry. Let's go back to the visitor center and get another snack. And, like, dumb dad, I, like, forgot to bring a snack. But I'm like, I'll buy you a double snack back at the visitor center if you do the hike. I'm trying, like, every bribe in the book. I'll buy you an ice cream sundae if you do the hike. And he's just complaining, and he doesn't want to do the hike. And then he's also scared because there are wild bison in this park, and bison are, like, aggressive animals, and they can charge at 35 miles an hour. And my son is a big nature nerd, so he knew the fact that they could charge 35 miles an hour. And, like, we were hearing rustling in the bushes, and we had not seen a bison yet. And I was like, I really, really, really want to see a bison. So when we heard the rustling in the bushes, I'm like, let's go check it out. And. And at that point, he grabs my hand. He's like, dad, what are you doing? You're scaring me. Get over here. And he really squeezed my hand, and I was like, all right, I'm overdoing this. Well, I wanna say that I was being really subtle. But the truth is, at times, I was not being very subtle. I was saying things to him. We were reading a kid's biography. If you go to Barnes and Noble, there's a whole section called who is? It's like, who is Abraham Lincoln?

Anna Martin (28:03)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sam Graham Felson (28:03)

So there are these little kid biographies with cartoon pictures in them and stuff. So we were reading who is Teddy Roose? And there's this famous quote from Teddy Roosevelt where he talks about, like, living the strenuous life.

Anna Martin (28:13)

Yes.

Sam Graham Felson (28:13)

So I kept saying to him, like, come on, let's live the strenuous life. Let's live the strenuous life. Like, you got this. Like, I know it's a little bit of a long hike, but you got this. You're gonna feel really good when you're done. And then finally, he just kept complaining. I'm like, all right, let's call it a day. Like, it's the first day. He's not into this hiking stuff. And I'm not gonna push it too hard on the first day. But then, interestingly, the next day, he, like, totally surprised me. We drove to another part of the park, like, a much more rugged part of the park, and he was like, let's go off trail.

Anna Martin (28:45)

And you were like, strenuous life.

Sam Graham Felson (28:47)

Yeah. I was like, okay. And then he got really into the idea of, like, climbing up. They're called buttes. These are like. Like. Try to picture, like, the Grand Canyon, but, like, upside down.

Anna Martin (28:59)

Huge rock formations.

Sam Graham Felson (29:00)

These beautiful, like, layered, like, multicolored rock formations that are like plateaus. And he was like, let's go climb that butte. And then, like, he climbed this butte, and I'm following after him. And he insisted in being in the front, he wanted to be the trailblazer. He was like, I want to be the trailblazer. And then I'm thinking, like, all right, we're getting really far away from the beat.

Anna Martin (29:18)

Wait, pause. What do you think changed from one day to another to make him be like, dad, you're scaring me. To now this day, running ahead on the butte, being the trailblazer, what do you think it was?

Sam Graham Felson (29:28)

So we did read every night, we were reading parts of the Teddy Roosevelt book, and we did read a part about when Teddy Roosevelt got beat up as a kid.

Anna Martin (29:38)

Whoa.

Sam Graham Felson (29:38)

And so we talked about that. Teddy Roosevelt was not brave as a kid, and he was not strong as a kid. And again, I'm trying at this point to be a little bit more subtle, but I'm basically saying to him, teddy Roosevelt changed He was not naturally tough. Like, he made himself tougher. And I did the same thing myself. And I think he was probably inspired by that idea more by Teddy Roosevelt than by me. But, like, it did surprise me, though. I started saying to him, I'm like, you know, we are getting really far.

Anna Martin (30:11)

Away from the trail when he's running on the buttes.

Sam Graham Felson (30:13)

Yeah. And he kept finding another butte that was even higher than the last butte and, like, going higher and higher and higher and kind of, like, scrambling on these rocks. And at one point, not only are we far from the trail, but we're on this narrow ridge. Yeah.

Anna Martin (30:28)

You're gonna scare me again. Okay. Yeah.

Sam Graham Felson (30:30)

And by the way, the weather in North Dakota is famously mercurial, and it changes on a dime, and it is one of the big places for tornadoes. And just in general, like, crazy weather just comes out of nowhere out there. So the sky started to change, and, like, the wind started to pick up, and I'm like, we gotta go back down. Like, we could get. Literally get blown off of the butte, and, like, there's no one out here to help us because we are way off the beaten path at this point. And I'm starting to get scared. But he wasn't scared, and he was, like. He actually turned to me and he's like, come on. We're living the strenuous life. Like, come on. Come on, dad. So I let him go for a little while longer.

Anna Martin (31:04)

Were you proud?

Sam Graham Felson (31:05)

Yeah, definitely.

Anna Martin (31:06)

You were scared and proud, and these things were happening at the same time.

Sam Graham Felson (31:10)

And then, by the way, on the way down, this is, like, a good lesson for why it is actually important to stay on a path rather than to, like, just go trailblazing. It was really steep on the way down, and I slipped at one point and, like, kind of badly cut up my leg on the gravel, but I slipped and, like, slid down part of the butte, and, like, he was ahead of me, and I actually, like, slid into him. And I was worried that not only was my leg bleeding, but I was worried that, like, I had hurt him because I hit him kind of hard. And normally he freaks out at the sight of blood. Like, me, he hates shots. Like, every time it's flu season, he's like, if there's not flu missed, I'm not doing it. I'm not getting a flu shot. So I'm like, oh, God, now he's gonna freak out at the blood. And. And he was just like, you're good. You're okay. You're okay. You're gonna be Fine. So I'm thinking, like, at that moment, I'm like, this is happening way faster than I was expecting. I'm like, I'm like, this guy, like, is changing so quickly. Like, this is.

Anna Martin (32:02)

You're like, I did it. Mission accomplished.

Sam Graham Felson (32:05)

I really, like, was thinking to myself as I'm limping down the mountain, I'm like, this is really working out according to plan. This is incredible. And of course, kids change on a dime. So things took an interesting turn after that on the trip, which we can get into when you want to, but it wasn't like this steady ascent of braver and braver and more strenuous life. And where he emerged from the Badlands like a macho man. There were some big curveballs.

Anna Martin (32:34)

We'll be right back.

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Sam Graham Felson (33:25)

Almost any cake can be turned into.

Anna Martin (33:27)

A one mole cake. There's nothing better than a freshly baked.

Sam Graham Felson (33:30)

Croissant for my oven.

Anna Martin (33:31)

Oh, my God.

Sam Graham Felson (33:32)

I could eat 5 billion of these. That is a brownie.

Anna Martin (33:35)

Don't be afraid. This is so forgiving.

Sam Graham Felson (33:37)

These are deluxe cookies at New York Times Cooking. We've got it all.

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Anna Martin (34:15)

If the story were to end here, the title of your piece would be different, because right now, I tried to toughen myself up. Things did not go according to plan. But if you just ended with him, you know, scrambling down the butte and being like, come on, dad, catch up, it would be, I tried to toughen up my son in the Badlands, and it worked. So what was the.

Sam Graham Felson (34:34)

It would have been how I made my son a Badlands badass. Yeah, exactly. By Sam Graham Fos.

Anna Martin (34:38)

And by the way, I'd click on that too. But what. So what happened? So what next?

Sam Graham Felson (34:43)

Well, first of all, there were things that were happening on the trip that were complicated. There were lots of things that we were seeing and hearing that prompted difficult conversations that I guess I Was, like, a little bit prepared to talk about, but hadn't really fully thought through what I was going to say to him about some of these topics. So I'll give a few examples. There's a lot of Native people in North Dakota, and actually a lot of these national park sites are on holy Native sites, which is not cool, right? And, like, Mount Rushmore is on, like, a holy mountain, and we just carved some faces into it. Like, that wasn't cool. So, like, my son is seeing this and, like, starting to realize that, like, the thing that he loves more than anything else in the world, national parks, has this kind of problematic. There's like, a flip side to that coin, which is that, like, a lot of these places that we see as, like, this beautiful idea of a public space for all. We're in someone else's land that got taken away. So I'm, like, explaining that stuff to him. We actually drove through the site of the most infamous massacre in the history of the genocide of Native American people, which was at Wounded Knee. So that's in South Dakota, and it's a place where, like, over a hundred Native Americans were just shot at point blank by US soldiers. So he starts asking more and more questions. Like, he says to me, he's like, dad, did the Native Americans, like, do anything to deserve this? I'm like, no, they didn't actually. They didn't do anything to deserve this. You know, that was a hard conversation just to be like, yo, a very bad thing was done to these people, and there's no way about it. There's no, like, way of excusing it. And by the way, your hero, Teddy Roosevelt wasn't exactly great on this stuff either, right? And he starts to ask questions. Like, he says to me at one point, he's like, dad, was Teddy Roosevelt a bad guy or a good guy? And I'm like. And I paused for a long time and I'm like, man, what am I gonna, you know, what do I say here? Teddy Roosevelt was a massive imperialist. Teddy Roosevelt believed that non white people were inferior. And, like, that it was kind of all right to go take their shit. Teddy Roosevelt loved violence. That's the dark side of Teddy Roosevelt, the masculine guy. And like, you know, I sometimes think, like, what if Teddy Roosevelt hadn't been mugged as a little boy, right? Teddy Roosevelt had planned to become a scientist. Like, he was gonna be a naturalist, like he had planned to. His ambition was to, like, go around collecting, like, moss samples and, like, salamanders and, like, looking at them. And putting them in museums, Might he have just turned out like that instead of, like, an imperialist?

Anna Martin (37:43)

So if Teddy's falling, is anyone rising in the ranks for your son in terms of.

Sam Graham Felson (37:48)

Yes.

Anna Martin (37:49)

So role models to be obsessed with.

Sam Graham Felson (37:51)

So we did a lot of driving on this trip, and he's doing a lot of hiking. And I'm proud of him for having a really good attitude.

Anna Martin (37:59)

And he's getting through the hikes.

Sam Graham Felson (38:00)

Yeah, he's getting through the hikes better. And he is doing a lot better. And I'm proud of him for that. And I'm starting to be like, all right, you can have your iPad. Time. And he had watched. He probably watched Home alone for the 900th time. Cause he's obsessed with Home Alone. And I'm like, you know what? Let's download a new movie. I just saw that Pee Wee's Big Adventure is available. And that was one of my favorite childhood movies. So basically, I pulled over, like, load this movie up for him. And then we start driving, and then I just start hearing him cracking up in the backseat. And he's just like. I've never heard him laugh so much. And he's like, dad. He's like, oh, my God. And he keeps rewinding this one scene where this bully, this arch nemesis of Pee Wee's named Francis, has stolen Pee Wee's bike. And Pee Wee gets revenge on him by, like, asking him if he wants a piece of gum. And he gives a piece of gum to Francis, and Francis is like, oh, that's so sweet of you, Pee Wee. Thank you so much. And Francis chews it and turns out to be trick gum. And, like, this black ooze, like, comes, like, out of his mouth.

Anna Martin (39:04)

The classic trick gum.

Sam Graham Felson (39:05)

He's, like, horrified. And my son thinks it's, like, the funniest thing ever. He's like, oh, my God. Trick gum. That's amazing. And he just fell in love with a lot of what happens in this movie is, like, pee Wee, who is a really wimpy guy, definitely the opposite of Teddy Roosevelt energy. Like, he kind of gets by on his wits. And he gets by with, like, little tricks. And he gets by, like, not by punching people in the face, but by giving people, like, trick gum and stuff like that. And my son just really, really, really, really vibed with it. And, like, later on when we're hiking again, like, he just starts, like, asking. He's like, dad, like, can you buy trick gum anywhere? And I was like, you know, when I was a kid, I had trick gum. He's like, wait, you had trick gum? That's incredible. He's like, tell me about. I was like, yeah, it was just like that. Like, when you chewed it, it made this black ink ooze out of your mouth. He's like, how long was your tongue black for? I was like, probably like two hours. Your tongue was black? He's like, oh, my God. Who did you trick with the trick gum? I was like, I think I tricked my little brother with it. He's like, oh, my God. You tricked Uncle Joe with the trick gum. So then he's like, did you have any other tricks? I'm like, yeah, I had this hand buzzer where, like, you could pretend you were being friendly and shaking someone's hand, but then they would shake your hand and it would buzz them. Like, it felt like a shock and they get really scared. And I had this other thing where they open a can of popcorn and this crazy snake thing pops out. He's like, oh, my God. And he's like, his mind is blown by then. He's like, I'm not kidding. This conversation lasted for like an hour where I told him about all of the tricks that I had as a kid and for the rest of the trip. Like, he must have rewatched Peewee's Great adventure six or seven times on this trip. And he started going on when I would turn my back or go to the bathroom, he'd get on my computer and go on Amazon. He would look up Pee Wee Herman outfits and, like, wanted to buy, like, a red bow tie. And, like, he's getting really, really into it.

Anna Martin (40:57)

And I will just note, even though it's pretty obvious, if you know these two men or you can see them in their. In your mind's eye, like, Pee Wee is very, very not the rugged Wild west archetype we've been talking about. He's sort of, I would say, kind of genderless. He's witty, he's wily, he's weird. He's like, very authentic. But he's strange. He's doing his own thing.

Sam Graham Felson (41:24)

And it's interesting. I mean, like, he's.

Anna Martin (41:26)

He's not tough.

Sam Graham Felson (41:27)

He's not tough, but like, yeah, he's. He has a kind of high pitched voice. He. He walks around in kind of like almost like balletic way. Yeah, yeah, but he's a man. He's a grown man. And I don't. My son is not looking at Pee Wee being like, well, he's not a man. He's just like, yeah, that's a different Kind of man.

Anna Martin (41:46)

He's like, I want a bow tie for myself.

Sam Graham Felson (41:48)

Yeah. He is clearly moving in the direction of, like, he's got a new hero. And it's not Teddy Roosevelt, it's Pee Wee Herman. And mostly I'm tickled and even moved by this because, like, I was a big comedy nerd as a kid. I love Pee Wee. That's why I showed him the movie. Like, my bigger hero was Weird Al Yankovic. Like, comedy. I still love comedy. My wife and I can never agree on a movie because I always want to watch a dumb comedy.

Anna Martin (42:16)

But you're feeling connected to your son in his obsession. But at the same time, can I just ask him, becoming obsessed with Pee Wee, were you worried about that? If you started to emulate someone who is different in these ways, like Pee Wee is, were you worried to bring it back to the beginning of our conversation just straight up, were you worried he'd get beat up if he started wearing the bow tie?

Sam Graham Felson (42:41)

Huh? Yes. And here's the thing, right in the movie, which again, I highly recommend people watch, it's a great movie. But in the movie, it's a beautiful fantasy because Pee Wee doesn't really get bullied. There is one jerk named Francis who steals his bike. But there are these bros in his little fictional town who are these alpha mountain biker bros. And, like, they give him high fives. He gets respect. He's not a loser and he's not a geek, and he's not a wimp and he's not a bitch. Like, he's just. He's Pee Wee. Everyone loves Pee Wee, right? He's completely himself. He dresses in weird outfits. At one point in the movie, he puts on these high heeled boots in front of a biker gang and he does a crazy dance, but the biker gang loves it. And they're like, you're the man. We love you, man. And so he spellbinds everybod with his charisma. And the charisma is born of an absolute belief in himself as an idiosyncratic, powerhouse individual. And just like, he's like a diva, he just is who he is, proudly, totally, individually and idiosyncratically. And he gets respect from the world for that. And what was sad for me watching that, especially seeing my son starting to idolize Pee Wee Herman is thinking like, well, wouldn't that be amazing if my son could be like a total idiosyncratic weirdo and proud of it and dress however he wants to dress and not play sports and instead do weird dances and Wear what you know. But, like, in the real world, wouldn't Pee Wee get his ass beat? In the real world, wouldn't people be calling Peewee nasty, homophobic words? And in fact, like, my son doesn't know this, but in the real world, Peewee did get over by homophobic culture and had his life ruined by it. Yeah, right. Of course. Like, my son doesn't know all of that.

Anna Martin (44:44)

Of course not.

Sam Graham Felson (44:44)

But I am thinking, like, okay, I'm willing to, like, let him go all in on this. And by the way, he. He literally, like, if it was up to him, he would wear a suit to school with a bow tie every day. I have told him, like, he can do it sometimes. Like, he's got to wear regular hoodie and jeans most of the time. Oh, my God. But, like, he does dress like Pee Wee.

Anna Martin (45:03)

But you're watching him become obsessed with. With this movie with Pee Wee, and you're telling me, like, you're. You're looking at this and you think it's wonderful. And you also are like, this is not the real world. And if you were to truly wear your suit and your bow tie to school every day, you might get picked on, beat up. There's this scene that you have in your piece where you can kind of sense you grappling with, like, wanting to encourage this authentic part of your son, but also trying to remind him of the kind of real world dynamics that you want to have him protect himself from. Can you explain? And you do it via, like, a bit of role playing, actually, can you explain what happened towards the end of the trip?

Sam Graham Felson (45:49)

So on the last night of the trip, we had this road trip. A lot of stuff happened. He clearly moved from getting really excited about the strenuous life to getting more excited about the Pee Wee life, which is fine. And, you know, like, I want. He's a classic. He's who he is. And he also showed me on this trip in a lot of ways that he may not be as physically brave as other kids, but he's very emotionally brave. He's the kind of kid who will.

Anna Martin (46:23)

Point out the thing about Teddy Roosevelt. Yeah.

Sam Graham Felson (46:25)

And by the way, also, we'll talk about his own feelings very openly in a way that, like, I can. I mean, unless I'm on a podcast with you, I can never talk about my feelings. But basically, like, yeah, he'll say things like, I'm feeling sad because I'm feeling lonely, like, because of this or that. Like, he'll actually articulate those things out loud. But anyway, it's the end of the trip, he's turning in that pee wee direction. And I am thinking in the back of my head, like, look, I'm a creative professional. Like, I want him to be unique. The last thing I want to do is have a normie as a son. Right? Like, I love the idea of if he's the idiosyncratic. Like, I don't want to raise a conformist. I love the fact that he's different. And he even says to me, he's like, he knows that he's different. He says that, that I'm different. I'm not like the other kids. And I love that. I don't want him to be like the other kids. I really don't. But I also don't want him to get his ass beat at some point. And so I'm thinking, so much for the strenuous life. He's already moved on from that. So it's the final end of the Airbnb. We packed everything up, I'm tucking him to bed, and I'm like. But I just have this feeling. I'm like, all right, well, I wanna have a more direct conversation with him about bullying because I'm still worried that he might get bullied at some point. And I'm thinking to myself, if he's really gonna go in this direction. And it's not like, he's never been picked on. He has been picked on. Nothing severe, but, like, he's still pretty young. And I'm thinking, like, he's about to go into fourth grade. Like, it was the summer. It was last summer. He's about to go. He's now in fourth grade. I'm like, fourth grade was when I remember real bullying started to begin and soon he'll be in middle school. So I'm like, all right. I can't quite give up on my mission to toughen him up. So I say, like, all right, I want to do, like, a role playing thing where I'm going to pretend to be a bully. And I want you to, like, basically stand up for yourself and stand up to me. So just pretend I'm a bully and you be you and I'll be the bully.

Anna Martin (48:24)

What did he say to that?

Sam Graham Felson (48:25)

He was like, that's kind of weird. And I'm like, just go with it, man. All right. So I come up to him, like, he has this idea that he wants to start a technology company, including, you know, making a ray gun that will destroy all the sports balls. So he wants to build a time machine. Like, he has all the. He wants to build a machine that will replicate money so that he can be both the richest man in the world and give money to all the poor people in the world.

Anna Martin (48:50)

It seems like a very exciting company.

Sam Graham Felson (48:52)

So his company is called Clementine. Shout out to Clementine. And he's got his own logo that he draws of, like, an Apple logo, but with a Clementine. So, anyway, so I come up to him, like, like, bro, like, hey, man, Clementine sucks. Clementine is never going to succeed as a company. And, like, you're a loser. I'm, like, going a little far, but, like, I wanted to create a realistic bully scenario. I'm like, clementine's a failure, and you're dumb and you're a loser. And then he's like, that's not true. Clementine's a good company. And I'm like, that's how you're going to respond? And I'm like. So then I'm like, like, doubling down. I'm like, you're a coward. Like, I'm gonna beat you up. You're a loser. You know, like, no one likes, you know.

Anna Martin (49:35)

Can I pause you for a second? Were you speaking from a place of. Where were these words coming from? What were you drawing on to be this bully?

Sam Graham Felson (49:43)

The things people said to me.

Anna Martin (49:44)

Okay, that's what I thought.

Sam Graham Felson (49:46)

So I'm not saying the word bitch in front of him, but I'm like, you're like. When I told my wife that I role played and even used the word loser, she's like, that's a little harsh. I'm like, yeah, I guess it was. But I was trying to prove a point. Kids talk to each other in really nasty ways. So I'm like, you're a loser. Nobody likes you. Like, basically, like, you're different in a bad way. And then he's really like, no, I'm not. Like, I'm good, you know? And I'm like, keep trying. And I'm finally. I'm like, all right. Like, at one point, I, like, gave him a fake shove, and then he.

Anna Martin (50:13)

Like, is that uncomfortable for you to, like, even just play act being a bully to your own side? I mean, it must have been hard.

Sam Graham Felson (50:19)

It didn't feel good to do that. And, you know, I don't. I don't recommend this to, like, listeners at home. I don't think this is, like, a great parenting moment or whatever. It was like. Like, it was an experiment.

Anna Martin (50:29)

Yeah.

Sam Graham Felson (50:29)

And then at one point, like, he hit me, but in this, like, really soft way where. Where, like, he didn't punch me with a fist. He just kind of like.

Anna Martin (50:36)

Cause you shoved him, and then he.

Sam Graham Felson (50:37)

Hit you back, and I didn't really shove him. Yeah, of course, a fake shove. But he, like, taps me, and I'm like, all right, this is, like, a very stupid activity, and I'm going to call it quits. And, like, this was, you know, a fail and not a, like, good parenting moment, but I tried it. It was a failed experiment. Yeah. And as I'm moving on, he's like, oh, wait, wait, wait, wait. I thought of a good way to fight back against the bully. Be a bully again, dad. Be a bully again. So I'm like, all right, fine. I'm like, hey, you're a loser. Nobody likes you. Your company's gonna fail. And he goes, well, I'm glad you feel that way. I'd rather be friends with you than fight you. Can I offer you a piece of gum? And I'm like, really? That's nice. I wasn't expecting that, but, like, sure, yeah, I'll have some gum. And so he, like, hands me, like, a pretend piece of gum, and I pretend to unwrap it, and I put it in my mouth and I start chewing. And then he's like, I have news for you. It's trick gum. Oh, my God. It's tew. It's trick gum. And then I'm like, no. I'm like, I can't believe. It's tricky. And then I, like, you know, pretend. But again, like, when he said that, I was just like that. I played. I role played for a little while of, like, pretending. You know, black ooze was coming out of my mouth and, like, fell on the floor. And I'm like, oh, my God. And then afterwards, I was just like, that was a really. Like, you got me, man. That was it. Like, you did it.

Anna Martin (52:07)

You did it.

Sam Graham Felson (52:08)

You got the bully. That was it.

Anna Martin (52:10)

I mean, it's.

Sam Graham Felson (52:10)

I was not expecting that at all.

Anna Martin (52:12)

It was, like, feeling like, really? I never thought that. But I'm very moved by the trick gum because he. There. There's something. What? He's obviously kind of directly copying a scene from Pee Wee's Playhouse. Let's just say that. What did you see him doing there?

Sam Graham Felson (52:30)

You know, it was interesting because I guess if I'm gonna, like, analyze it, I feel like he was like, of course, really consciously, he's just imitating Pee Wee Herman and doing something that he thinks is funny, but on an unconscious level, he's doing something kind of profound, which is he's saying, like, you're way bigger than me and I'm not gonna be able to beat you with brawn or fists. And I'm going to use my wits to beat you. And I'm also gonna use. You know, it's not like the thing about trick gum is that it is harmless, right? It doesn't. It's just kind of embarrassing.

Anna Martin (53:14)

It's just black ooze.

Sam Graham Felson (53:15)

Yeah, it's just black ooze. And, you know, doesn't even taste that bad. But he's like, I'm gonna use this other weapon, which is humor, to, like, diffuse the situation. And it just struck me as like, what he was actually offering was a third way. And he's saying the third way is you can stand up for yourself without physically hurting someone. You can use your wits, you can be yourself. You can use the tools that you have at your disposal rather than the ones that society tells you you're supposed to have. Right? And it was just something that showed me, okay, this kid can't fight. But, like, in his own way, this kid is kind of a lion in his own way, you know, like, he's got something deep and he's got a kind of inner belief in himself that I actually didn't have as a kid. And I'm not crediting myself for that. I think a lot of this is just innate. But here I was, I wanted to teach him some lessons so that he could avoid a lot of the painful stuff that I felt as a kid not having self confidence. And I saw in that moment, I'm like, he actually already has it. And when you see something like that, like, you realize that your job as a parent is to, like, walk away and just let him do his own thing, you know? And like, one of the hardest things you can do as a parent, but most important things I think you can do is, like, believe in your child and know that they got this, you know, and that was like the. That was like the moment where I just felt like, he's got this, he's got this. And like, I know, don't. I don't have to mold him into anything. He's got this.

Anna Martin (55:08)

Do you still worry about him?

Sam Graham Felson (55:09)

Yeah. I mean, he got his class picture back yesterday. He is the only person in the class picture wearing a suit.

Anna Martin (55:17)

He's wearing a pee wee suit. He's wearing. Is he wearing a bow tie?

Sam Graham Felson (55:22)

I wish for the sake of this show that he was wearing. I think we told him, like, you should wear a. If you're gonna Wear a suit, please. Wear a tie. But he has a bow tie, and we learned how to tie a real bow tie. And so he's weari a tie in that one, but he has some bow ties, and. And vastly prefers to wear bow ties. But I do still worry about him a little bit, because he is different. And there's no way you can be different without bumping up against society in a frictionless way.

Anna Martin (55:53)

Yeah.

Sam Graham Felson (55:53)

I mean, and so I know that pain is going to come his way, but I guess I just. I'm not up at night about it because I just feel like he kind of has this pee wee quality of just, like, not giving a fuck. That's the thing I really realized is that what I want for my son, for my daughter, for myself, for all the people I love is just to walk around with a sense of freedom, that you can be yourself. And, like, that's the quality that I care about. Not can you kick someone's ass or can you, like, get back up if someone kicks your ass? It's just, can you be. Yeah, can you be a peewee and ride your red bike around and, like, you know, feel good about that? And I think that's gonna be his superpower. And I don't know. Look, let's see what happens, you know, like, when the rubber meets the road. Like, if he actually gets horribly bullied, I don't know what's gonna happen. And by the way, like, I. Here's another thing that. That has happened since the road trip is like, I really didn't. I don't care if he doesn't want to play sports, but I did feel that, like, I don't want him to just be in his head. So I'm like, you have to pick one physical activity. So I thought of, like, after I saw him climbing on those buttes, I thought, like, maybe he can get into rock climbing. And so I signed him up for this rock climbing class, and he was really, really, really scared at first, and he was not good at it. And he's really taken to rock climbing. And, like, that. That's been a cool thing to watch. And that's like, an example of something where he doesn't have to fight anyone. He doesn't have to hurt anyone or punch anyone, but it is a thing in which he has to do a scary thing. And the thing about rock climbing is once you conquer one kind of wall, then you do a harder wall. So he's doing a thing where he is confronting his fears and he's showing that he's willing to go back at it and go back at it, and that's been really cool to watch, and that was not something he would have been capable of last year. So. Yeah. Yeah.

Anna Martin (57:58)

I want to see him climb a rock wall in a suit.

Sam Graham Felson (58:03)

That's probably his dream.

Anna Martin (58:05)

That's probably his dream. He's on the phone about Clementine.

Sam Graham Felson (58:08)

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. He's got. Yeah.

Anna Martin (58:10)

Sam Gramfelson. Thank you.

Sam Graham Felson (58:12)

Thank you very much.

Anna Martin (58:20)

The Modern Love team is Amy Pearl, Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Reva Goldberg and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Davis Land. It was edited by Lynn Levy and Jen Poyant. Original music in this episode by Pat McCusker, Marion Lozano, Diane Wong, Carol Sabaro and Dan Powell. This episode was mixed by Sonia Herrero. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones. Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we've always got those instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.

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