I Was the Fun Dad. It Almost Destroyed My Marriage.

Summary

Modern Love Podcast: “I Was the Fun Dad. It Almost Destroyed My Marriage.”

Host: Anna Martin
Guest: Jordan Carlos (comedian, writer, husband, and father)
Release Date: January 28, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this candid episode, host Anna Martin sits down with comedian Jordan Carlos to unpack the very real toll that unequal division of household labor can take on a marriage. For years, Carlos believed that being the “fun dad” and primary breadwinner earned him a pass from the daily grind of chores, parenting logistics, and emotional labor—work mostly done by his wife, who worked outside the home, too. When the pandemic forced everyone's worlds to contract, Carlos was confronted by how disengaged he'd been from his family and home life. He narrates the sometimes-humbling, sometimes-hilarious journey to becoming a real partner in his relationship, sharing the small acts (like making coffee) and mindset shifts that revived his marriage.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Fantasy and Pitfalls of Being the “Fun Dad”

• Initial Division of Labor:
  • Jordan admits to doing little at home, “walking the dog when told,” pushing his kid’s stroller, and occasionally taking out the trash.
    • “I wasn’t doing much of anything. What I was doing was making money. Yeah, I was making money.” (04:09)
  • He justified his lack of domestic participation by his status as primary earner.
  • Domestic chores (“magical sprites, the milk fairy, the TP fairy”) and logistical labor (making appointments, tracking kids' clothing sizes) all fell to his wife.
    • “She was making jokes, but that was like passive aggressive. And I could feel the resentment rising.” (05:47)
• “Fun Dad” Persona:
  • Jordan focused on taking kids to museums, candy shops, and being the “show pony,” while his wife became the “fun sponge” who enforced rules and cleaned up afterward.
    • “I wanted my kids to have burn on their brain that their dad was so much fun.” (07:53)
    • “Because then the fun sponge comes along… she basically has to, like, regulate what's going on.” (08:35)

Underlying Resentment and Communication Breakdown

• Denial and Dismissal:
  • Despite jokes about “doing it all alone,” Jordan felt resentful when his wife expressed actual loneliness.
    • “She was always saying that I’m alone. I’m doing this alone. And that would be triggering for me... I just didn’t want to hear about it.” (09:21)
• Ego and Avoidance:
  • He didn’t want to confront the imbalance:
    • “I would just say that it wasn’t true. I wouldn’t listen at all. I just... would refute what she was saying.” (09:59)
  • The couple would argue just before Jordan went on stage, deepening the strain.

The Breaking Point: COVID-19 and Forced Stillness

• Pandemic Reckoning:
  • With work and travel halted, Jordan found himself a “stranger in my own home.” (14:18)
  • He realized the family unit “could get along without you.”
  • Front-row seats to a family member’s “very ugly divorce” and the sight of Esther Perel books on the nightstand heightened his fears (17:24).
• Decision to Change:
  • Jordan faced the reality: “Things need to change or I will not be married.” (17:53)

Taking Action: The Small Steps That Add Up

• Inspired by a Friend:

  • He recalls a Canadian friend’s small but viral act—making his wife coffee every morning—which became legendary in their social circle.
    • “And people would repeat it, like, myth, you know?” (18:37)
  • After a big fight, he decides to try the coffee approach, frothing milk and adding the right sweetener for his wife:
    • “She looks at me like, what’s going on? Are you punking me?” (19:26)
    • “Not a prank. I just want you to have this coffee. It's for you.” (19:34)

• Scaling Up:

  • Jordan uses his improv skills—“If this, what else?”—to start noticing other needs: emptying the dishwasher, making the bed, tracking recycling days, writing down schedules, and restocking essentials.
    • “Emptying the dishwasher is like… it takes what, 10 minutes of your time, tops?... It was just one other thing she didn’t have to do.” (22:15)

• Owning His Responsibilities:

  • Moves from being managed (“she was doing Instacart, but I was the Instacart grocery person”) to proactive solutions—shopping via an app and thinking ahead to avoid running out. (23:50)
  • Realizes the importance of internal standards versus seeking affirmation—“I have to work out standards for myself.” (26:32)

• Going Big:

  • “What if I got a Costco membership?”—starting to anticipate needs and batch shopping to prevent constant emergencies. (27:06)

Sacrifice and Time Management

• Admits He Always Had the Time:
  • Discovered that by sacrificing his sports habit (e.g., watching the Cowboys lose for 51 hours a season), he reclaimed time to help at home. (29:17)
    • “What if… I just don't watch?” (29:30)
• Sustaining the Shift:
  • Wakes up early—sometimes 4:30 a.m.—to handle chores before work, carving out time for both family and himself. (28:22)

Recognizing Change and Building a New Identity

• Family Noticing the Shift:
  • His wife doesn’t hand out praise easily—he has to “prove himself” and keep going without outside validation. (25:22)
  • Finally, a small but powerful moment: his son asks for paper towels, and, with pride, says, “Daddy gets all the stuff,” recognizing Dad’s new reliability.
    • “That means that you belong, you know?” (34:31)
• A More Equal Partnership:
  • Describes his new household role as “chief of operations… and a partner.” (36:05)

Emotional and Intimate Reconnection

• Easing the Tension:
  • With Jordan handling more at home, his wife stopped being the “air traffic controller” for everything. (33:07)
• Emotional Openness:
  • Jordan starts sharing his professional struggles and successes, finding his wife more receptive and supportive.
    • “She’ll be like, ‘oh, they suck. Don't worry about that. It's their loss.’ I was like, ‘oh my God, like, why didn’t I do this before?’” (37:10)
• Daytime Adventures and Physical Chemistry:
  • More time together leads to “dating” again—exploring the city, impromptu lunches—and an improved sex life.
    • “She’s definitely more down to play, down for sex, down to smash… it just feels more fun, more spontaneous, and I can tell there’s less of a burden.” (39:21)

Redefining “Fun” and Letting Go of Insecurity

• Shifting His “Fun” Target:
  • Less about being “fun dad” and more about directing playfulness towards his wife and relationship, rekindling what attracted them in the first place. (40:29)
• Putting Kids to Bed & Difficult Transitions:
  • Enforcing rules isn’t always fun; saying “no” can be hard when the desire to be liked by kids lingers.
    • “This fun, this identity as the fun parent came from a place of insecurity. And now that you feel more secure about your place in your family, you don't need to be fun all the time.” (42:45)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Household Blindness:
  “I was told, like magical sprites were doing the cleaning. Sometimes it would be like the milk fairy. Cause my wife would be like, oh, there’s more milk. How did that get there? I guess it was the milk fairy.” — Jordan (05:30)
• On Marital Isolation:
  “I felt like I was going to get fired from my family.” — Jordan (14:53)
• The Power of Small Gestures:
  “Not a prank. I just want you to have this coffee. It’s, you know, it’s for you. Morning coffee. She drank it, she liked it, smile, olive branch. And then everything was fine.” — Jordan (19:34)
• On Setting New Standards:
  “I have to work out standards for myself. Right. That’s what dawned on me. I was like, I’m doing all these things, and nobody cares. Well, do you care?” — Jordan (26:32)
• When His Son Notices:
  “Daddy gets all the paper towels… daddy gets all the stuff… that means that you belong, you know?” — Jordan (34:31)
• Redefining Partnership:
  “My place now is just… is being that guy. That guy. It's like chief of operations, you know… and a partner.” — Jordan (35:57)
• On Sex and Sharing Labor:
  “She’s definitely more down to play, down for sex, down to smash… and you can feel the relief.” — Jordan (39:21)
• Anna’s Reflection:
  “This sort of fun, this identity as the fun parent came from a place of insecurity. And now that you feel more secure… you don’t need to be fun all the time.” — Anna (42:45)

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Key Timestamps

• 03:36 – Jordan humorously admits how little he did at home
• 05:46 – “Milk fairy” & his wife’s passive-aggressive household jokes
• 07:53 – Jordan’s motivation for being the “fun dad”
• 09:21 – Fights about feeling “alone” in marriage
• 14:18 – COVID and feeling like a “stranger in my own home”
• 19:26–20:20 – First time making coffee for his wife
• 23:50 – Becoming proactive, not just managed
• 26:32 – Realization he must set his own standards
• 29:17 – Sacrificing three hours/week of sports to participate at home
• 34:31–34:45 – Emotional response to his son’s recognition ("Daddy gets all the stuff")
• 36:05 – Embracing his role as “chief of operations—and a partner”
• 39:21–40:01 – Positive changes in couple’s emotional and physical intimacy
• 42:45 – Anna’s insight on security replacing performative fun
• 44:05–44:31 – “Pop quiz” on household details; Jordan aces it

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Tone and Language

Jordan’s approach is self-deprecating, often poking fun at his past and his own laziness, but he becomes deeply sincere and vulnerable, especially when describing moments of recognition and reconnection with his family. Anna facilitates the conversation with warmth and gentle humor, drawing out confessional honesty and adding insight about broader gender and partnership expectations.

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Conclusion

This episode lays bare how easily and insidiously household inequality can arise—even among well-intentioned partners—and how difficult but transformational it can be to confront and repair it. Through small, consistent acts and a willingness to reflect on his own ego and assumptions, Jordan Carlos not only salvaged his marriage but built a role for himself as both reliable partner and whole, present father. It's a story about humility, persistence, and the quiet magic of simply showing up.

Book Mentioned:
Chore Play: The Marriage-Saving Magic of Getting Your Head Out of Your Ass by Jordan Carlos, out Feb. 10 (45:17)

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Transcript

[Narrator]

You know how every relationship has chapters. The good years, the hard ones, the nights. You almost call it, but don't. The New Year's from Spanish filmmaker Rodrigo Sorogoyan is about that. Ten New Year's Eves, one couple, and everything that happens between the kisses. It's tender, complicated, completely real. Stream the New year's exclusively on MUBI, the streaming service dedicated to great cinema. Get 30 days [e-mail] NYT that's M u b I.com NYT for a whole month of great cinema.

[Anna Martin]

Hey, everyone, it's Anna. Before we start the show, I'm back for the last time to ask for your stories about romantic gestures for this year's Valentine's Day episode. We want to know the most romantic thing that's ever happened to you that you've ever experienced, that you've ever seen or witnessed. Whether it's a big rom com style gesture or something small and private and sweet, we want to hear about it. We've heard from so many of you so far and we can't wait to hear more. But I will just say we've gotten a lot of submission from women. Love you, girls. Thank you. But we want to hear from everyone else too. So men, non binary folks, people who aren't women, we're especially excited to hear from you. Whatever made you feel that rush of romance, from the big moments to the tiny ones, we want to hear about it and we want to know why it was so romantic to you. If you have a story in mind, record a voice memo and email it to [e-mail] by February 4th and we may use your story on the show. That's modernlovepodcastytimes.com and once again, your deadline is approaching. It's February 4th. All right, thanks everyone. We can't wait to hear from you. Love now. And did you fall in love last?

[Jordan Carlos]

Love was stronger than anything. And I love you more than anything. There's the love.

[Anna Martin]

Love from the New York Times. I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love. Today I'm talking to a comedian who found himself in a very unfunny situation. His name is Jordan Carlos. And Jordan's really not proud of this. But for years he thought that because he was out there hustling so hard to make money for his family, he didn't have to do a single chore at home. He also didn't have to be involved in the day to day of raising his two kids. No, that was for his wife to do, even though she had a job, too. The whole thing reached a breaking point, and basically Jordan had a decision to make. Step up or lose his family. He decided to step up. Jordan wrote a book all about the changes he made, and he joined me in the studio to talk about exactly how he did it. He also told me why it's essential to your relationship to always know how much toilet paper is in the house. Jordan, Carlos, welcome to modern love.

[Jordan Carlos]

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

[Anna Martin]

I think, you know, it's safe to say that every marriage has some friction around the balance of who does what. Cleaning, cooking, kids stuff, calendar management, just keeping up the home. But it sounds like for a while there, you were really kind of falling short in your marriage. Is that right?

[Jordan Carlos]

Me falling short? Okay. It's all in how you look at it. By what metric? No. Yes, I was definitely falling short. Definitely falling short.

[Anna Martin]

At this time, what were you doing to keep the household running? Like, what was in your domain in terms of day to day stuff?

[Jordan Carlos]

Oh, dear. I. Hold on.

[Anna Martin]

The pause, I think is very informative, as you well know.

[Jordan Carlos]

Yes, I walked the dog when told to do it. I walked the child to daycare, which was far. That was a whole seven minute walk. And by the way, the stroll up the hill, like that stroller was. It was a bugaboo. And those are expensive, but not great. And so I was really putting in the work. Okay.

[Anna Martin]

Dog walking, walking the kid to school, the bugaboo.

[Jordan Carlos]

What else? I took out the trash once. That was cool. But I wasn't doing much of anything. I was making. What I was doing was making money. Yeah, I was making money. Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

And I mean, talk more about that. So it's like those were the sort of duties. We can count them, I guess, on one hand on the home front.

[Jordan Carlos]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

But you were thinking to yourself, I'm bringing home the bacon. Was that sort of how you were thinking about it?

[Jordan Carlos]

It was, yeah. And I think that imbued a lot of, like, my behavior. Right. And I was. I just felt like cleaning and all the rest of the domestic duties didn't apply to me.

[Anna Martin]

Huh.

[Jordan Carlos]

I didn't want to be bothered. And I don't. I don't like that guy.

[Anna Martin]

I was gonna say, like, you know, I asked you a bit earlier, you know, what was in your purview at home, and you mentioned the dog and pushing the bugaboo. There are so many, obviously, other, mm. You know, duties you did not name.

[Jordan Carlos]

Yes.

[Anna Martin]

For example, cooking all the meals, doing all the laundry, cleaning the toilet. Cleaning the kitchen, cleaning the refrigerator, restocking the pantry. You know, certain, you know, things like this.

[Jordan Carlos]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

Although again, you did walk the dog, so. Thank you. How was that stuff, all that stuff, how was that getting done in your house?

[Jordan Carlos]

I was told, like magical sprites were doing the cleaning. Sometimes it would be like the milk fairy. Cause my wife would be like, oh, there's more milk. How did that get there? I guess it was the milk fairy. Or it's like, you know, the TP would run low and she'd be like. I guess the toilet paper fairy came.

[Anna Martin]

She would say this.

[Jordan Carlos]

Yes. And she was making jokes, but that was like passive aggressive. And I could feel the resentment rising.

[Anna Martin]

Sure.

[Jordan Carlos]

With each passing year when she'd make these bits, these jokes and she was restocking, she was keeping track of all these things, what we needed to get through the next week, month, whatever it was. Right. She had her eyes out in her eyes on the horizon. I just did not. You know.

[Anna Martin]

And what about in terms of sort of the logistics of a home, which are infinite seeming. What about with raising the kids? I mean, you mentioned appointments and stuff. She was also. She was handling that. She was the appointment fairy.

[Jordan Carlos]

She was the appointment fairy. She knew the size of the children's clothes, the shoe sizes. Cause they change. I mean, it's not my fault these kids feet grow and grow and grow. But seriously, she would keep track of the size of the shoes. And because she had a cadre of moms, they would do this kind of like wonderful mutual aid thing where if my kid outgrew some shoes and give them to another person. Another person. And so my kids got this heavy rotation of clothes from other kids. But you had to know what size the children would be. And that just was. I just was not. I was watching that go by. I couldn't tell you at the time.

[Anna Martin]

In terms of too, like, sort of the. Maybe more like emotional, or not even emotional. Like you were spending time with your kids. Right. Like, what was the quality of the time that you were spending with them?

[Jordan Carlos]

I don't think it was good. I don't think it was good. I think I was very short with them. There were activities that I wanted to do that, that I would take the kids on. And then I could be fun dad.

[Anna Martin]

Like what?

[Jordan Carlos]

Like, let's go to Central park or maybe the Met. And then after that, you know, we're near Dylan's Candy shop. Right.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Oh, my God.

[Jordan Carlos]

But then we need to finish that off with Serendipity 3, which is right down the Block. And then.

[Anna Martin]

Oh, is that another candy shop?

[Jordan Carlos]

That's. No, sorry. That is an ice cream shop. Okay. I will not have the new New York Times reporting lies. All right, so I wanted my kids to have burn on their brain that their dad was so much fun.

[Anna Martin]

Why?

[Jordan Carlos]

Still working on that? Because I didn't get to do those things as a kid. I didn't get to do those things as a kid. And I wanted my kids to know my fun side, and I wanted them, I think, to. I wanted to make up for the fact that I was more like the show pony and not the workhorse. I had all the bells and the whistles and, you know, the poppers and not. Not those kind of. I'm talking about fireworks. So. So, like, that's what I was trying to be. And I was. I was. I was performing, really performing for my kids.

[Anna Martin]

Hmm. But then I'm imagining sort of continuing that story.

[Jordan Carlos]

Yes.

[Anna Martin]

You arrive home after this amazing day. You're done being fun.

[Jordan Carlos]

Yeah, well, yes. Because then the fun sponge comes along, and she basically has to, like, regulate what's going on. Right. Because I've got them all hopped up on sugar. Right. And maybe. Maybe somebody's got homework, somebody needs changing, like, baths need to be taken.

[Anna Martin]

And you call her the. If you're the fun parent.

[Jordan Carlos]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

Your wife became the fun sponge.

[Jordan Carlos]

Yes. She was sucking all the fun out. She was like the fun police. And we didn't like that. You know, like, she'd always be like, yo, yo, yo. Like, these kids have to be. Yeah. Or it's past bedtime. You know, we blew through that. You know.

[Anna Martin]

Did you. You said that she'd make jokes, you know, oh, the toilet paper fairy came or whatever.

[Jordan Carlos]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

Do you remember conversations where you really talked about this? Maybe even a fight?

[Jordan Carlos]

Yes. Yes. Because she was always saying that I'm alone.

[Anna Martin]

Wow.

[Jordan Carlos]

I'm doing this alone. And that would be triggering for me because I felt like in this partnership, I was doing all of that. I was doing the comedy, but I was providing all this stuff for us. And for her to say that she was alone just made me feel. I felt it was unfair to say, and it just. It hurt my ego. Obviously, I would take such issue with it. I hated it.

[Anna Martin]

Do you remember what you said? What you would say back if she.

[Jordan Carlos]

Said, I'm doing this alone, I would say that you're not alone. That's not true. I would just say that it wasn't true. I wouldn't listen. I wouldn't listen at all. I just. I would Refute what she was saying. I would say that, like, I'm killing myself. I'm going to all these clubs, these colleges. I'm on the road. I'm doing it all for this family. And I just didn't have time to take a breath. I didn't want to hear about it. I thought that was just the wrong assessment of what was going on. You know, I would get upset because I wanted her to understand that this is the price of achieving something in comedy. This is what it is, you know, this is what you bought into. And I'd have these moments where it was like, we get into a fight right before I left, and it was maybe something I hadn't done, and I had to leave to go do a comedy show.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah. That's a tough transition.

[Jordan Carlos]

Right. So in those arguments at those moments, especially if the argument had to do, like, if it was about housework or division of labor or something with the kids and I had to go do a show, I'd be like, thanks, babe. Now I gotta go be funny.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah, that is really tough. I mean, it's.

[Jordan Carlos]

What's the matter with me?

[Anna Martin]

No, I mean. I mean. Well, you know, I think that someone listening might be like, I don't really like this guy. But I think that, like, I think you're voicing something that a lot of people don't put voice to because it's very vulnerable. Cause you sound like a dick.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Yeah.

[Jordan Carlos]

Thank you.

[Anna Martin]

You do.

[Jordan Carlos]

Thank you.

[Anna Martin]

But this is. What I'm saying is, like, I think it's. In order for you to make a change, ye. I think it's really important to be honest about where you were before that change. Right. So let's talk about. Let's talk about.

[Jordan Carlos]

By the way, I'm pitted out at this moment. I'm like, I can't believe I said all those things.

[Anna Martin]

No, this is what I'm. I'm feeling grateful, like I said, that. You're being honest.

[Jordan Carlos]

Sure.

[Anna Martin]

Because I think this is. I think a lot of people listening. They might be the you in this situation. Maybe they're your wife, you know, in that situation. But I think it's very important to be honest about it.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Thank you.

[Anna Martin]

Especially because we're about to turn.

[Jordan Carlos]

Oh, my gosh. Okay.

[Anna Martin]

We'll be right back.

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[Jordan Carlos]

Hey, I'm Joelle.

[Anna Martin]

And I'm Juliette. We're from New York Times Games, and.

[Jordan Carlos]

We'Re out here talking to people about games.

[Anna Martin]

You like New York Times Games?

[Jordan Carlos]

Love them.

[Anna Martin]

Okay.

[Jordan Carlos]

Love.

[Anna Martin]

I play with my husband every night.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Aww.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

I refuse to let him play it without me.

[Jordan Carlos]

What's your favorite game? The crossword. The crossword I do, my brother.

[Anna Martin]

My favorite is the mini. We try and get it under 30 seconds.

[Jordan Carlos]

You're pros.

[Anna Martin]

I usually text my friend and ask her if she can beat me, but she never has.

[Interviewer/Producer]

At lunch, a bunch of people at work will all be doing the same game at the same time.

[Anna Martin]

There's this little tab down here called friends, so you can add your friend.

[Jordan Carlos]

That feels new to me.

[Anna Martin]

It is.

[Jordan Carlos]

It's nice to have the social aspect.

[Anna Martin]

Oh, my God. And you have all the times. That's crazy, right? You can look at spelling bee wordle connections. Oh, my God. Amazing. Love that I have to get the apple. Thank you so much for talking with us. We really appreciate it. You can play all New York times [e-mail] games or on our app Play on. So let's talk about what made you kind of stop and realize something is really off in my marriage and I need to change, really? Before it's too late. Like, this is way more dire than I ever anticipated. I know. It started during COVID right? This was the moment. Okay, tell me about that.

[Jordan Carlos]

During COVID everything stopped, right? There was no TV production. There were no shows, and everything came to a screeching halt. And I kind of found myself to be a stranger in my own home.

[Anna Martin]

What do you mean by that? Invisible.

[Jordan Carlos]

Invisible. I mean, I could tell that I wasn't needed. I was redundant.

[Anna Martin]

Huh?

[Jordan Carlos]

I was like, okay, I don't know what Everybody does at 11am I don't know what people do for lunch here, you know? What's the story here? I'm usually gone, you know, and it felt like I was gonna get fired, you know?

[Anna Martin]

From your family?

[Jordan Carlos]

Yeah, I felt like I was gonna get fired from my family. Like I was an appendage. Like, I just didn't. You didn't need it. You didn't need it. And the feeling is a kind of a lurking doom. Like there's something under the surface, like a submarine that's hunting you, you know, and closing in on you. And it's the reality that this unit can get along without you. Maybe you could co parent as best you can, but like, on a long enough timeline, this will come to a head. And a very bright woman, your partner, will do the right thing by her and her kids.

[Anna Martin]

And what is that? Let's just say what that.

[Jordan Carlos]

Yeah, I think it's divorce. It's dissolution of the marriage. It didn't feel like we were going anywhere. And what I realize now, what I would say was the music turned off. Like in musical chairs. There was definite dysfunction. There were so many things going wrong, like a Rube Goldberg machine. But the music had not stopped, right? So when it did, you saw the problems, you saw the big gaping holes. I would be busy doing something else. So I couldn't do the laundry now I'm not busy. And I just didn't know my place. I didn't know my place. And that created friction. There was a lot of like wallowing, right. And self pity. And that created more friction in the home. And now I'm still not doing the laundry. What is that? And she's still teaching, by the way.

[Anna Martin]

Oh my gosh.

[Jordan Carlos]

She's still teaching. She's too. I mean, I was, I was like, now the more I speak, I'm like, I'm a man, baby. But like, it was just like she was taking on so much. And I can see now that the cracks were getting bigger and bigger. The conversations were getting more serious about what I needed to do, how like, you know, the comparisons with other husbands. And she was always feeding me stories about how people were breaking up and how people were getting divorced. You know, so and so got divorced. You know, this one got dumped and did it do and he's living in a van, you know. And I was like, oh, man. So I, I was taking all that in. I was taking all that in. I. The. The one saving grace of being a comedian is that you do observe sometimes. If you gotta, you know. Sure. If you gotta. If your spouse has Esther Perel in the nightstand, the call is coming from inside the house. You need to change your ways immediately.

[Anna Martin]

Like book turn, like spine turned out, like to your side, you know what I mean? Like a highlighter next to it.

[Jordan Carlos]

Come on. So, yeah, I did. Also during this period, there was also a divorce. Very close, like, you know, in our family. So we were front row to a divorce.

[Anna Martin]

Huh.

[Jordan Carlos]

A very ugly divorce.

[Anna Martin]

That's very scary. Yeah, it Sounds like at some point you were like, things need to change or this. I will not be married.

[Jordan Carlos]

Yeah, things need to change or I will not be married.

[Anna Martin]

How did you know? It's like, oh, this is what I need to start working on.

[Jordan Carlos]

Um, it was. It was. It was a Canadian. You know, there's this one Canadian husband. He's a sweetheart, like, in your friend group. In my friend group in Brooklyn. And he famously, famously made coffee for his wife every morning. Right. So we're talking about a very low bar here. And he would bring it to her in bed, and the ladies would rave about it. Wow. So, I mean, just think. Just think about how low that I was gonna.

[Anna Martin]

Totally.

[Jordan Carlos]

Mm.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah.

[Jordan Carlos]

And it was just Bustel. It wasn't anything crazy.

[Anna Martin]

I mean, I love Bustella.

[Jordan Carlos]

You like Bustella?

[Anna Martin]

Okay. I do. I do.

[Jordan Carlos]

All right. Yeah. Gentlemen, are you hearing this? Ladies, are you hearing this? All right, so I feel like when he did that, I always remembered that story that stayed with me. And people would repeat it, like, myth, you know? And so one morning after we'd had a really bad fight about, like, about all of it. Just about all of it. You know, I think we were at. Neither of us wanted to say, like, let's break up. But it was definitely on the menu, you know? And I was so tired of being at odds with my best friend and the love of my life that I just remembered the coffee thing. And I was like, all right, well.

[Anna Martin]

You remembered the Canadian.

[Jordan Carlos]

I remembered the Canadian. And it's so hard to get up in the morning. Cause I don't wake up. So I had to get up, and I had to find the coffee. I don't even know where we kept was bad. So I do it. I think I stepped on a myriad of Legos and almost broke my neck going down the stairs. And then I froth the milk like she likes, and agave and not sugar. I got that going on the right amount. Cause she doesn't like too much. And then I bring it back upstairs. I'm like, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. And then I bring it to her, and she looks at me kind of like, what's going on? Are you punking me right now? Like, is this a prank? And then I was like, not a prank. I just want you to have this coffee. It's, you know, it's for you. It's for you. Morning coffee. She drank it. She liked it. Smile, olive branch. You know? And then everything was fine.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah, totally. Totally. I was like, wow, that Canadian really got it.

[Jordan Carlos]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

No, but and you hadn't done that before, or you hadn't done that in a while?

[Jordan Carlos]

I hadn't done it. It. Ever. Wow. I hadn't done it ever. Listen, I'm a nice guy.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah. I mean, but you hadn't. You hadn't because. What? You were normally asleep, right? I was asleep.

[Jordan Carlos]

I was asleep. As a comedian, you get to sleep. I mean, often I'd feel like a day walker. Like, it would be like the sun would burn my face a little bit. You know that point where you're getting radiant heat on your face and you're like, I gotta wake up. So, like, I'd maintain that ritual since college.

[Anna Martin]

This is my routine. This is my recipe for success. But you give her this coffee. How did it feel for you when you gave her the coffee and you saw that smile?

[Jordan Carlos]

My hand was shaking. My hand was, like, totally shaking. And when she did react positively, I was elated. I was elated. There were no words I could say or any other kind of gifts I could give that would have put the smile on her face and made me feel really good. It was doing that. I just started to repeat that. I made coffee for her every morning. And then after a while, I was looking around and I was like, okay, well, if I can do this, then what else can I do, right? What else can I do?

[Anna Martin]

How did you figure that out?

[Jordan Carlos]

Just scaling. I was like, okay, well, in improv, it's like. Cause I'm a comedian. So one of the things in improv is not only yes and but if this. What else? Right? So you just kind of use those improvisational skills and look around at what other things you can do that are probably not that hard to do. So I just looked around and I was like, okay, there's a myriad of things that are not that hard to do. I just have to identify them.

[Anna Martin]

Give me some of those.

[Jordan Carlos]

Easily done. Emptying the dishwasher. Or like, emptying the dishwasher is like. It takes what, 10 minutes of your time, tops? But if you get, like, a little process going, you're like, alexa, play this.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

That, and the third.

[Jordan Carlos]

You know, you can, like, groove out to it and it's over, right? It's over. Making up the bed. Especially when, if I wake up first and then she gets out later, go back, make up the bed. I would do that. And it was like. It was just one other thing she didn't have to do. I had to know the schedule. I had to know the routines, right? Learning, like, when recycling versus compost versus trash was supposed to be taken out.

[Anna Martin]

Were you writing this down? Like, where was this going?

[Jordan Carlos]

It was all going into my head, you know, and so I was like, keeping track, casual track of all these patterns and rhythms so I could get into rhythm with what was happening around the house, right? So, like, understanding that laundry was on the weekends. Duh. Learning when family dinners were. So she has her mom and dad live close. They each have their own kind of family dinner night. Like, not being taken by surprise on things like that.

[Anna Martin]

We talked about toilet paper. How did you factor that in?

[Jordan Carlos]

Oh, tp.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah, tp.

[Jordan Carlos]

Well, I mean, I had to come online, right? And like, before I wouldn't really think about the toilet paper, but after, I was like, okay, I was just looking around for the lowest hanging fruit. You have to understand that I am the laziest man. So I had to look for the lowest hanging fruit.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah, toilet paper.

[Jordan Carlos]

Toilet paper.

[Anna Martin]

Understanding how much you had in the house. What about groceries?

[Jordan Carlos]

Groceries, Yes. I mean, look on the groceries tip. I. I was like, I would always get groceries because she would make me go get the groceries and write the list and all this stuff and like, and then I text her and be like, where is this? In the grocery store, right? You know, like, so it was almost like she was doing instacart, but I was the instacart grocery person. So, like, she would have to manage me as I did these tasks. So I was like, what if I cut that out? What if I cut that out? What is the laziest way? What is the path of least resistance to get where I want to go? And it was an online, like an app. So I used an app and just like took the list, took a picture of the list from last week and input it into the app this week and presto, change. Oh, look. Thank you, Silicon Valley for catching up with slobs.

[Anna Martin]

Okay, but you're saying these things are lazy and.

[Jordan Carlos]

They are.

[Anna Martin]

And. Yeah, okay, lazy. And then they're also like sort of you creating hacks or reminders for yourself to come online, as you say, to realize what needs to be done to empower yourself to be self sufficient to get it done and to take these things off of your wife's plate. I mean, and let's just say, you know, probably way later in the game, I mean, definitely way later in the game than she would have. But you're doing these things, you're making these changes. Were you. Were you noticing your wife clock these changes? Was she receptive? Did she say anything?

[Jordan Carlos]

No, no, no, no, no. Because my wife Is from Brooklyn to the fullest. Okay? She's not gonna give you satisfaction, which I love about her. I love about her. Sometimes I'll be like. I mean, for example, I'll be like, babe, you look devastating in a total smoke show. Then wait, I'll be like, is there anything you want to say about me? She's like, are you saying that because you want me to say something nice back to you? Is that what you're saying? And I'm like, yes. Yes, I do. I do want you to say that.

[Anna Martin]

It's like, you look cute.

[Jordan Carlos]

Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes. Every once in a while, I'll get that. And I'm like, I'm like a camel in the desert for that. I'm like, please, a little water. But look, you have to. She's no bs and you have to prove yourself before you get that kind of, like, approval from her. And so what I did was. I was like, okay, I have to stop worrying about whether or not I'm gonna get an attaboy every time I do something around the house. And it has to be. I have to work out standards for myself. Right. That's what dawned on me. I was like, I'm doing all these things, and nobody cares. Well, do you care?

[Anna Martin]

I think that's really important.

[Jordan Carlos]

Yes.

[Anna Martin]

You had to do these things because you wanted to do them for your family, right?

[Jordan Carlos]

Yes.

[Anna Martin]

You didn't want to do these things for the affirmation, for the recognition.

[Jordan Carlos]

I wanted to have a role. I didn't have a role. I wanted to have a role. So then I was like, now I'm gonna go big. Yeah. I was like, I'm gonna go bigger. Right? So I was at retail. I'm, like, shopping, getting groceries, bulbs, light bulbs, whatever it was, you know? And I'd for the week. But then I was like, what if we went bigger? What if I got a Costco membership?

[Anna Martin]

Yeah.

[Jordan Carlos]

I've always. You know, I'm very. This is like. This is from the Salvation army, you know? Like, I'm very. I'm not a. I'm very spendthrift, but I was like, I'm gonna just show out, and I'm a ball out at Costco.

[Anna Martin]

But I think it's important because what you're saying is, not only were you sort of doing, I guess, the minimum, you were like, what if we got more than enough so we could prevent, you know, running out of the juice or the teepee? What if I sort of thought ahead, which was something you really had been offloading to your wife for your entire marriage. I mean, these things that you're now doing, the grocery shopping, you know, the laundry, et cetera. These things take time.

[Jordan Carlos]

They do.

[Anna Martin]

Did you have to sacrifice or give anything up to make space?

[Jordan Carlos]

No, because it was Covid. There was a writer's strike, then there was an actors strike. So I had time. I found myself with all this time. And you know what? I had the time before. What I learned was I actually did have time to do all these things. Because now I'm back online with my career, but I still find time to do all these things.

[Anna Martin]

How now that the pandemic is and you are working, what are the ways that you're able to prioritize this work, this labor?

[Jordan Carlos]

I get up early. I get up really, really early. That's. And I started small, and then it just had like a V effect.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Right.

[Jordan Carlos]

So I get up really early. Sometimes 4:30, sometimes 5. And that's when you can like throw in. Throw in the laundry, whatever it is. You can also have time for yourself. Like if you wanted to. Let's say you wanted to catch up on some series. What happens at the end of Stranger Things? You know, like, I can watch that unbothered and no one's taking up any of my time. I needed to figure out time for myself.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah. What if I carve out my time? That's separate so they're not in competition. Something that you wrote in your book is that you also. You did give up. You gave up watching sports.

[Jordan Carlos]

I did. I did. Listen, listen. I don't suggest this for everyone.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah. But I think it shows. I think it shows the kind of. The extent that you were trying to make this change. Tell me about that friend.

[Jordan Carlos]

It was bad news. I had to give up watching the Cowboys. I know the Cowboys are. I hated team. I didn't know that as a child. So. I'm from Dallas, Texas. There's no one else to cheer for. Please leave me alone.

[Anna Martin]

Okay, I'm laughing, but I have no idea.

[Interviewer/Producer]

Oh, yeah.

[Anna Martin]

Okay.

[Jordan Carlos]

Okay. Okay, good. You're not into sports. Good. No, this is. All right. So anyway, that's the culture in Texas. And I would dutifully watch the Cowboys and it was a one sided relationship because they were losing all the time. Then I realized, always so mad about the Cowboys and then watching them relentlessly. If you think about it, okay, there's a game is about three hours long, so if you multiply three times 17. And don't forget, if they get into the playoffs, it's another couple weeks. Three times 17. 51. That's 51 hours, right? 51 hours is you for two days and a little bit parked on the couch. And I was like, what if. Because they're just going to blow it. And they always do. I just don't watch. So I didn't. I didn't. And you know what? They still lost, okay?

[Anna Martin]

They were doing horribly without me.

[Jordan Carlos]

They were doing horribly without me. And I was like. I was like. I found myself with all this time. I found myself with time to do chores and also do fun activities with my family.

[Anna Martin]

To change that about yourself, I think is representative of these maybe smaller or more quotidian, more everyday changes, really. Actually kind of reconstructing the framework of your identity. Is that too dramatic to say?

[Jordan Carlos]

No, I don't think that's too dramatic to say. And I love your pronunciation of the word quotidian was right on the money. I was like, that's how it's said. Okay. Anyway. Yes, yes. It changed me little by little, though. So, I mean, I almost think of it like, as like a, you know, like a stalactite changes, but just drops of water. That's how slowly the increments were. And it was slow until it was. It was small, small, small until it was big.

[Anna Martin]

We'll be back in just a moment. Stay with us.

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[Anna Martin]

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[Interviewer/Producer]

My name is Thomas Gibsonoff. I'm a journalist at the New York Times. I served in the Marine Corps as an infantryman. When it comes to reporting on the front line, I think nothing is more important than talking to the people involved, you know, hearing their stories and being able to connect that with people thousands of miles away. Anything that can make something like this more personal, I think is well worth the risk. New York Times subscribers make it possible for us to keep doing this vital code coverage. If you'd like to subscribe, you can do [e-mail] subscribe.

[Anna Martin]

How did these changes you were making, which were small, but which added up, how did this affect your dynamic with your wife? I mean, were the Esther Perel books still on the nightstand?

[Jordan Carlos]

They were still there. They're still there. But what did change was the tension lessened in the house because she wasn't having to think about everything all the time, all at once. That wasn't her job. She wasn't the air traffic controller she once was. Right. So I'd opened up another lane, and that's. I could feel. I could feel that things were easing up.

[Anna Martin]

Do you remember a specific moment where. Where you really saw that kind of ease in action or, like, where you saw the weight lifted off her shoulders? Do you remember a specific moment where that hit you?

[Jordan Carlos]

Yeah, it's never. It's. It's. It's definitely gonna be when. There was a moment when I felt like I'd found my role, right? My son had, like, spilled some OJ on the table, and then he. I was like, go, run get a paper towel. We were out of paper towels, right? So I was like. And then my wife was like, great, I guess I'll go to the bodega and get more. And then my son was like, no, Daddy has all these paper towels in the garage. Daddy gets all the paper towels. Yeah, at the Costco membership. So it was like. And he said something like, about, like, daddy gets all the stuff. Like, Daddy gets all the stuff, you know, like. Sorry. Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah. Why is that hitting you? Why is that making you emotional?

[Jordan Carlos]

Because that means. That means that you belong, you know? So that's really great. So it's like, sorry, no, I'm hot.

[Anna Martin]

Do not. This is a show for crying. This is a show for crying.

[Jordan Carlos]

Well, I. Yeah. Good, good.

[Anna Martin]

And what did your. And what did your bring. Stay in that moment with me? He says that you run and get the paper towel. What do you see when you look at your wife? What are you seeing?

[Jordan Carlos]

Um, I'm seeing that she's like. She's recognizing that and taking it in. And, like. And, you know, she's like, that's right. You know, and, like, she'll bust my beans about it, but she loves the fact that, like, we're never out of these staples anymore. And because I've thought ahead and somebody else doesn't have to do it. And I could see that she was. Her face like, we could go back to lunch and she Was like brightening. I could see her brightening. And you know, and when a little kid is like, just tells you what it is. Cause they have no reason to lie, it feels really good. So it was nice to just, in that moment realize that, like, okay, I've solidified a role. All I have to do is like, keep doing what I'm doing and that's it really, you know. So, yeah, it was cool.

[Anna Martin]

Oh, don't minimize it, mister. No, no, no.

[Jordan Carlos]

Sorry, sorry. No, no.

[Anna Martin]

But no, I. No, do not apologize. Please don't apologize. Yeah, like, what was your place? What is your place? What's the place that you've made for yourself?

[Jordan Carlos]

My place now is just. Is being that guy. That guy. It's like chief of operations, you know, I love it. I love a good coo, you know, like.

[Anna Martin]

And a partner.

[Jordan Carlos]

And a partner. Yes, A partner in this. Because the partner is going to think ahead and make sure that you have the materials and the resources that you need that we need to run this house.

[Anna Martin]

In the darkest period, your wife had been coming to you and saying, like, I am alone.

[Jordan Carlos]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

And in a way, you were also. You were alone. You were alone in your own way. Now does it feel like the two of you are.

[Jordan Carlos]

Oh, we share together. Yeah. Yes, it does feel now that we share more. And I try my best to open like my, my career up to her and to share more things about it. Like, I'll just tell her what I'm feeling. I'll tell her like, if I got something, if I got a part, if I didn't get a part, you know, it's not a secret. It's not shameful, and it's weird. She'll be like, oh, they suck. Don't worry about that. You know, it's their loss. I was like, oh my God, like, why didn't I do this before?

[Anna Martin]

Like, in a way, making these changes at home opened up something emotionally between the two of you too.

[Jordan Carlos]

Absolutely.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

How?

[Anna Martin]

Tell me about that. Because even though I think I understand to buy paper towel in bulk, I'm like, okay, but how is that opening up new emotional pathways between you? Explain that.

[Jordan Carlos]

I think. Because otherwise I would just be a self interested, solipsistic freak. That was like, you know, after she'd done all these things to make our life easier, right? If she made dinner or helped the kids with their homework, saw to her elder parents. And after all that, I'm like, you know, I'm just. I feel like you don't support me enough. You know, like she wouldn't want to hear about it, you know? But now that things have changed, she sees that I do care, that I do want to make sure that. That her life is a little easier, our going is a little easier in the home. She has room, emotional room, to really listen to what I'm saying about. And I feel safe in telling her. And you know what? She feels safe in telling me what she's up to. All her worries about her career or just worries about her life, she's sharing a lot more, and it feels like we hang out now. And I also never took advantage of the fact that I have comedian hours. Right. So I'm like. And she's a professor. And she like. I'm like, do you want to get lunch later? Sure.

[Anna Martin]

So fun.

[Jordan Carlos]

Yeah. You want to just like, whatever. Let's. Let's cut. Like, we'll play. We're always saying, let's play hooky.

[Anna Martin]

Wow, that's so.

[Jordan Carlos]

There's so much to do in the city. So I'm like, let's get lunch here. Let's go to this museum. Let's do. Do this and that. I always say, like, it feels like we're dating.

[Anna Martin]

Huh?

[Jordan Carlos]

And then she's like, yeah, doesn't it? It feels like we're dating.

[Anna Martin]

That's really nice.

[Jordan Carlos]

Yeah. She's definitely had a pivot herself from all this. You know, she goes out with her friends. She goes out solo some nights. I think that we have better chemistry than we did before.

[Anna Martin]

Wow. And like, physical chemistry.

[Jordan Carlos]

Physical chemistry. Emotional chemistry, definitely. Because once, I mean, it's. You have to think about your hierarchy of needs. Once those are all satisfied, you feel secure. And then I found with my wife, this is a control group of n equals 1. But she's definitely more down to play, down for sex, down to smash, whatever the kids are calling it these days. So it's great. And you can feel the relief. It doesn't feel like, as much of, like a chore.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah.

[Jordan Carlos]

That she feel, you know, like, before sex was like, we need to do this thing because we are not connecting and we are in this relationship.

[Anna Martin]

Sure.

[Jordan Carlos]

Yeah. And this is more like. These days, it just feels more fun, more spontaneous, and I can tell that there's less of a burden. She's not think. She's often. She's a very brilliant person, so she has a lot going on in her mind, and she's not thinking about other things. We're both more in the moment.

[Anna Martin]

In the moment and more intimate. I'm recalling early in our conversation when you talked About. You were the fun parent.

[Jordan Carlos]

Yes.

[Anna Martin]

And your wife was the fun sponge. I wonder how that dynamic also shifted once you started doing more work. Doing the work.

[Jordan Carlos]

I think, listen, my wife is always gonna be. She's always a baddie from Brooklyn. That doesn't. She does not care if you like her or not. But I feel like this. Like, I now take the fun that I had with my kids and I direct it at my wife. So, like, because what I was trying to do was compete with her instead of what got me to the point in my relationship that, you know, like, the fact that I was able to court her, marry her, these things. It was because she was always like, you were so fun. You're the.

[Interviewer/Producer]

You.

[Jordan Carlos]

You go on the best dates. I was like. I took her to, like. I think on, like, the second date, I took her to, like, this spot on 57th street that looks out at the. Oh, no, 56th Street. Excuse me. That looks out at the 59th Street Bridge. And there's like a little.

[Anna Martin]

Nobody's ever done that for me. What the heck?

[Jordan Carlos]

You gotta know. Listen, listen. When you're not. I don't look like Idris Elba. You got to work with what you have. So if you know romantic spots, I'm bringing it back because that's what I used to, like, woo her, you know? I mean, I just knew about, like. I was like, oh, you want to see where Marilyn Monroe and Arthur Miller lived? Right this way.

[Anna Martin]

I mean, would you say, though, that you've, like, become less fun around your kids? I mean, because I will say also, if you're enforcing bedtime, which it sounds like you probably are now.

[Jordan Carlos]

I do.

[Anna Martin]

That's not so quote, unquote fun.

[Jordan Carlos]

It hurts my heart. Yeah, it hurts my heart a little bit. Like, my son has maybe, like, 70 stuffies. It's the cutest thing ever. He has seals and sea lions. There is a distinction. Totally. The ears give it away. But, like, saying goodnight to him and then like, bless his little heart, he'll be like, I have questions, you know? And you're just like. At some point, you're like, I have to close the door now. Like, you need to go to bed. And doing that to him, it hurts me. It hurts me deeply. But it's because I just want him to like me.

[Anna Martin]

What you're pointing out is that this sort of fun, this identity as the fun parent came from a place of insecurity.

[Jordan Carlos]

Oh, yeah.

[Anna Martin]

And now insecurity, in fact, about your place in your family, Right? It's like, well, what Am I gonna be. I'm not home. I'll be fun. When I'm home, I'll be fun.

[Jordan Carlos]

I'll be fun.

[Anna Martin]

We'll do a fun trip. I'll be fun. And now that you feel more secure about your place in your family, you don't need to be fun all the time.

[Jordan Carlos]

I don't need to be fun all the time.

[Anna Martin]

Is that a relief?

[Jordan Carlos]

It's a big relief.

[Anna Martin]

It's a relief and a sadness. Cause you said it's also tough for you to put your kid to bed, so. It's both.

[Jordan Carlos]

It's both. It's both. I mean. And look. Look. Fun. One comes out f. One comes out a lot.

[Anna Martin]

Suck it. Or not.

[Jordan Carlos]

We went to Fair Ox. What is that one? Where it's like a little gym where you're jumping around in trampolines.

[Anna Martin]

Yes.

[Jordan Carlos]

My sciatica. I didn't care. I was going crazy, you know, because I think there is a part of me that I just need to recognize that is this child that will never grow old, but I need to make friends with it. I need to make peace with it and know that it's not gonna drive the car. Right. And that's basically what it is. I just stop that and let the other, I guess, more adult voices up there, take charge. Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

I want to end with a pop quiz.

[Jordan Carlos]

Oh, boy. Oh, boy. I didn't study. I'm not.

[Anna Martin]

That's why it's called pop. Jordan.

[Jordan Carlos]

Yes.

[Anna Martin]

How much toilet paper is in the house right now?

[Jordan Carlos]

How much toilet paper is in the house right now? We got about 10 rolls.

[Anna Martin]

Okay, like that. Next question. How much milk?

[Jordan Carlos]

How much milk is in the house? We got three. Three liters of milk. So, yeah. So what I learned was you can put milk in the freezer as well.

[Anna Martin]

I didn't know that.

[Jordan Carlos]

Yes.

[Anna Martin]

What about your kids, dentist appointments? Are they up to date?

[Jordan Carlos]

They're up to date. Tooth cleaning was done in October.

[Anna Martin]

Love it.

[Jordan Carlos]

So we got another six months to go for another tooth cleaning and shoe size. Both kids, shoe size. My son is a size four, and my daughter's a size seven. Yeah. Oh, my God. My heart was beating so hard. You did it.

[Anna Martin]

No. And I. And this is what I will say, like, you know, how many years ago. What, like four years ago when you started this journey?

[Jordan Carlos]

Yes.

[Anna Martin]

Could you have answered any of those questions?

[Jordan Carlos]

Not a one. Not a one. No. No, no, no, no. Yeah, but you got to take these things seriously a little bit, you know? And it's hard for a comic to do any of that this interview. This is the most serious I've been years in years.

[Anna Martin]

I appreciate you being serious and funny with me. Jordan Carlos, thank you for this conversation.

[Jordan Carlos]

Thank you.

[Anna Martin]

Jordan Carlos Book is called Chore play the marriage saving magic of getting your head out of your ass. It comes out February 10th. The Modern Love team is Amy Pearl Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Reva Goldberg and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Reeva Goldberg. It was edited by Lynn Levy and Jen Poyant. Our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez and we had studio support from Alicia Vitup. Original music in this episode by Amin Sahota and Dan Powell. Dan also composed our theme music. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones and Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times Times, we've got those instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin and by the way, I have seven rolls of toilet paper in my house.

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