Love Lessons From Ramy Youssef’s Dog

Summary

Modern Love Podcast — “Love Lessons From Ramy Youssef’s Dog” Host: Anna Martin | Guest: Ramy Youssef | Release Date: May 13, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Modern Love features comedian and actor Ramy Youssef discussing the profound impact his rescue dog, Basha, has had on his life and understanding of love. Moving beyond the usual exploration of romantic relationships, Anna Martin and Ramy delve into the unique, unconditional connection humans have with their dogs. The conversation is woven with humor, warmth, and philosophical reflections on vulnerability, presence, and how loving an animal can teach us about loving each other. The episode also features Ramy reading Amy Sutherland’s Modern Love essay, “Opening the Heart’s Floodgates with a Paw,” prompting a deeper discussion on the lessons dogs teach us about generosity, loss, and opening our hearts.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Origin Story: How Basha Came Into Ramy’s Life (02:32–07:26)

• Basha’s Name and Demeanor:
  • Basha means “distinguished gentleman” in Arabic.
  • Ramy was drawn to Basha’s elegant posture and calm, paw-over-paw way of sitting, which felt “gentlemanly” and seemed evidence of his past resilience.

    “He has, like, paw over paw. He’s always sitting quite elegantly.” – Ramy Youssef (02:54)

• Rescue and Connection:
  • Basha, a rescue from Tijuana, had survived being hit by a car.
  • Ramy was recovering from an injury during COVID when his sister began sending him dog adoption listings, leading to that immediate, unexplainable connection with Basha.

    “When I looked in his eyes, I thought, oh, man, this is my guy.” – Ramy Youssef (04:08)

• The Adoption Drama:
  • Ramy had to “compete” for Basha at a rescue meetup (with a humorous digression about another less-loved candidate, a dog named Eric).
  • Ultimately, a coin toss decided Basha’s new home, but Ramy felt certain the outcome was fate.

    “I just knew that was my dog… once I got there, I just felt, this is what’s gonna happen.” – Ramy Youssef (07:06)

2. Dogs as Love’s Ultimate Wingman (09:46–13:41)

• Bonding with His Now Wife Through Basha:
  • Adopting Basha coincided with an early stage of Ramy’s relationship with his now-wife.
  • The puppy helped bring them closer, serving as a “cute dog wingman” that inspired confidence and togetherness.

    “I would say, Basha, ultimate wingman… I love my life because of you.” – Ramy Youssef (10:53, 11:01)

• Dogs Breaking Down Social Barriers:
  • Owning an adorable dog like Basha made Ramy more approachable, but also shifted attention away from him and onto the dog.

    "People will talk to a dog and not even look at the person who’s holding the dog.” – Ramy Youssef (12:43)

3. Memorable Anecdotes: Conflict and Care (07:26–09:46)

• Confrontation with Danger:
  • Ramy describes a terrifying moment when a coyote tried to lure Basha away, evoking a “superhuman” reaction as he screamed to scare the coyote off:

    “The way—the sound that came out of my body…” – Ramy Youssef (08:04) “There was nothing sweet about it. I was like, ‘You're inside now forever.’” – Ramy Youssef (09:32)

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Essay Reading: “Opening the Heart’s Floodgates with a Paw” by Amy Sutherland (15:11–25:14)

• Ramy Youssef reads a heartfelt essay about volunteering at a dog shelter and what it revealed about human capacity for love.
• Core Themes in the Essay:

  • Shelters as places to witness and facilitate love between people and dogs.

  • The special, unguarded love people express toward animals, and how dogs can teach people to be more open-hearted.

  • Reflection on how humans often struggle to express “unqualified love” with each other, and how dogs can help thaw emotional bottlenecks.

    “I began to see how humans long to give their hearts away.” – Amy Sutherland (read by Ramy Youssef, ~20:40) “We have more love inside than we know what to do with, but are too bottled up, which is where dogs can come in.” – Amy Sutherland (~22:00) “Love doesn’t like to be bottled up. That’s how you end up frowning at strangers on the train.” – Amy Sutherland (~24:35)

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Reflections: What Dogs Teach Us About Love (27:08–39:21)

The Unfiltered, Vulnerable Love With Dogs

• On Loving Even in the Face of Loss:
  • Ramy shares that love for a dog is intensified by its inherent transience, referencing a quote that “dogs are here to teach us about death,” because “best case scenario, the dog dies before you.”

    “You love in such an unfiltered, massive way... and you so definitively know... the dog dies before you.” – Ramy Youssef (28:14)

• Why We Struggle to Love Humans the Same Way:

  • Ramy asserts that awareness of finitude could help us be more present and generous in our human relationships, but our ability to do that is limited by self-protection, social constraint, and perhaps denial.

    “There’s a hubris in thinking that we know how long we will be around or our loved ones will be around...” – Ramy Youssef (28:51)

  • Anna notes that we often “validate” dogs so freely (with smiles, affection) but approach humans more guardedly, especially in public settings.

On Being a “Human Person” vs. “Animal Person” (29:49–32:07)

• Ramy identifies as both but leans toward being a “human person,” emphasizing the importance—and challenge—of extending the same “expansive and loving” approach to people.

  “You are learning...how to be expansive and take people as they are.” – Ramy Youssef (31:26)

Audience Question: How Do We Extend Dog-Love Tactics to Humans? (32:07–34:15)

• Anna wonders if she should “make eye contact and smile” at strangers in the way she does at dogs.
• Ramy, wryly but protectively, advises against this for women in New York (“that’s gonna open up a whole other can of worms”), instead suggesting tangible, communal gestures of care:

  “Stores that have food should have food for people who can’t afford food… just some bread.” – Ramy Youssef (33:49)

On Choosing Each Other: People and Dogs (34:28–37:22)

• Discussing Amy’s story of people adopting dogs unlike those they set out for, Ramy draws a creative parallel:

  “The reason you start something is not the thing you have to remain loyal to… It’s this invitation to humans to not be so cemented in their preconceived notions.” – Ramy Youssef (34:49)

  • An appeal for flexibility, openness, and trusting intuition in love, whether for pets or people.

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Life Lessons from Basha: Presence and Stillness (38:49–39:21)

• Ramy shares that Basha helps him do something rare and restorative—“do nothing” and simply be present.

  “Just rolling around on the carpet doing nothing… That’s a big lesson in being still.” – Ramy Youssef (38:49)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the instant connection:
  • “When I looked in his eyes, I thought, oh, man, this is my guy.” – Ramy Youssef (04:08)
• On loving fiercely despite inevitable loss:
  • “Dogs are here to teach us about death, because you love in such an unfiltered, massive way... and you so definitively know... the dog dies before you.” – Ramy Youssef (28:14)
• On social openness:
  • “People will talk to a dog and not even look at the person who’s holding the dog.” – Ramy Youssef (12:43)
• On expanding love learned with animals to humans:
  • “You are learning...how to be expansive and take people as they are.” – Ramy Youssef (31:26)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:32 – Ramy describes meeting and connecting with Basha.
• 04:48 – Anna draws parallels between dog adoption and romantic chemistry.
• 07:26 – Ramy shares a dramatic story of saving Basha from a coyote.
• 09:46 – How Basha helped deepen Ramy’s relationship with his wife.
• 11:49 – Anna and Ramy discuss how dogs break down people’s social guards.
• 15:11 – Ramy reads Amy Sutherland’s essay.
• 27:08 – Reflections on unfiltered love, loss, and being present.
• 32:07 – The challenge of extending “dog love” tactics to people.
• 34:28 – Discussion about flexibility in love and openness to the unexpected.
• 38:49 – Ramy shares how Basha teaches him presence and stillness.

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Takeaways

• Dogs offer a unique channel for unconditional, judgment-free love that bypasses much of the guardedness we display with humans.
• The presence of a dog can foster openness and joy in human relationships, acting as both a “wingman” and a powerful emotional anchor.
• The lessons we learn in vulnerability and presence with pets can, with practice and intention, be extended toward our relationships with people.
• Life’s unpredictability makes it all the more important—and poignant—to love with openness and presence, whether our hearts are moved by humans or four-legged friends.

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Further Reading:
For Amy Sutherland’s Modern Love essay and more, see the episode show notes on The New York Times website.

Transcript

[Anna Martin]

This podcast is supported by BetterHelp. May is mental health awareness Month, a reminder that you don't have to do this life alone. Right now, many Americans are struggling. Nearly two thirds report feeling anxious and more than half cite financial stress. Having a licensed therapist with you by video phone or chat can make a difference. And BetterHelp makes it easy. Sign up now and get 10% [e-mail] NewYorkTimes that's better. H E-E-L-P.com NewYorkTimes Love now. And did you fall in love last fella?

[Rami Youssef]

Lover love but stronger than anything for

[Anna Martin]

the love of love.

[Rami Youssef]

And I love you more than anything. You're still love love.

[Anna Martin]

From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love. And today I'm talking to comedian Rami Youssef. I first learned about Rami by watching Rami, the sitcom he wrote and starred in. The show was inspired by his own life, growing as a first generation Egyptian American Muslim guy in New Jersey. The show was funny and heartfelt, and I remember thinking, this Rami guy seems like the rare comedian who actually is kind of a sweetie. Like, he was edgy, but he also just seemed very kind. Now he's got a new special out. It's called Rami Yousef in Love. And when I heard that title, I was like, that sweet side of him is gonna come out even more. Maybe he'll talk about his wife. I knew he got married a few years ago. And in the special he does talk about his wife, but he also talks about his dog, like, a lot. He really talks about his dog. So today we're leaning in and we are doing a dog episode. Rami and I talk about the kind of unconditional love that you really can only get from a dog. Because dogs, they don't judge you. They can't ghost you, they can't gossip about you, they can't femor request you for half the drinks at the bar that they suggested at the date that they planned. Dogs just love you, Rami Youssef. Thanks for being here. Welcome to Modern Love.

[Rami Youssef]

Thanks for having me.

[Anna Martin]

Okay, Rami. We are a show about love and relationships. And usually I'm speaking to people about their relationships with other humans. But we are here today to talk about your relationship with your dog. And I will come clean. This is the first time I've ever done an interview about an animal. So thank you for this opportunity to learn and grow. We'll get through it together. I am nervous though.

[Rami Youssef]

Yeah. No It's. I. When I heard that, I was really excited.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah, it's innovative. Yeah. This is a first for us. Okay, we'll start with the basics. What is your dog's. What's your dog's name?

[Rami Youssef]

Basha. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which in Arabic means distinguished gentleman.

[Anna Martin]

Basha.

[Rami Youssef]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

What was the gentlemanly, like, qualities you sensed in this. In this guy?

[Rami Youssef]

When he sits, he. He has, like, paw over paw. He's very. He kind of, like, folds his. Yeah. So he's always sitting quite elegantly. He actually was. He had been hit by a car in Tijuana, and there was this rescue that basically, you know, rescues these dogs and got him the surgery he needed. And then, you know, so he'd been through a lot, and I felt that also there's a level of gentleman, kind of, you know, perseverance in there. He's got a past.

[Anna Martin]

Tell me how he came into your life.

[Rami Youssef]

So my sister sent me his listing. This was during COVID and I had torn some ligaments in my ankle, and I was injured. And then I was kind of. I wasn't able to do anything for. For many months. And then I was like, all right, I want to get back out. I'm going to be walking. We started to kind of circle the idea of. I thought, maybe I'll get a dog. My sister had a dog. We had one growing up. And so, of course, she took that as a green light to just send me dog listings. Do ye.

[Anna Martin]

Zillow listings? Dog listings. Totally.

[Rami Youssef]

100% things that they will not be able to take care of or pay for. But what about you? And so sending me a barrage. And then I saw this one, and I went, whoa, wait a minute. I locked eyes with him and felt this connection just off of the photo, really, because he had these eyes. When I looked in his eyes, I thought, oh, man, this is my guy.

[Anna Martin]

Okay, I'm gonna pause here because I have heard this story, you know, again, show about love and relationships. I hear a lot of how people meet their partners. And this, to me, sounds. I, like, forgot a bit that we were talking about a dog. This does sound like, you know, and there's various. Like, you see someone on Tinder, whatever, you stop. It's the eyes. Take me into that moment. It's like. It really was like a freeze moment for you. What was it? What was it about the eyes?

[Rami Youssef]

The real truth is, I don't know that I could put into words what I felt. I just knew what I felt. And the way I knew was when I spoke to the Person, you know, from the rescue. I was nervous, you know, I felt on the phone, butterflies almost, you know, of. Oh, I hope I'm giving the right answers to get to the questions. Yes.

[Anna Martin]

So cute.

[Rami Youssef]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

Okay, so you did the phone call with the agency person about Basha, and. And then what happened? He wasn't just yours after that, right?

[Rami Youssef]

Yeah. I went to a. A parking lot in San Diego a few hours from my house, and somewhere along the way, I realized that there was going to be another family who we would essentially be kind of competing for the dog's affection to figure out who was gonna take him. The part I don't mention in the special actually, is that the rescue brought another dog that they claimed was basically the same. Wait, Big reveal.

[Anna Martin]

This is huge. Okay.

[Rami Youssef]

Yes, they did. But that dog, quickly. Neither of us were that interested in him at the moment because he didn't look anything like the dog at all. Like, it was not what we came for. That's a catfish.

[Anna Martin]

That's a catfish.

[Rami Youssef]

Yeah. Yeah. It was a catfish with a dog. Yeah. His name was Eric. And I would say, in terms of composure, you know how there's dogs that are just very, you know, just these little barky dogs.

[Anna Martin]

Yes.

[Rami Youssef]

Eric was that. You know, it was not. He was closer to, like, a purse dog.

[Anna Martin]

You know, you're being really kind about Eric, but it's seeming like you're not really loving Eric's vibe.

[Rami Youssef]

At a certain point. No one was even watching Eric. And Eric easily could have run away. Should have. If I were Eric, I would have run. This guy just hung out. He hung out. He didn't even try to run away.

[Anna Martin]

He doesn't even know how to read vibes.

[Rami Youssef]

Yeah. I looked at him. I was like, dude, go. Like, you could have someone will.

[Anna Martin]

No one likes you here. Yeah. Okay, wait. So then Basha finally comes out, and then it's you and this family.

[Rami Youssef]

Yeah. And we're trying to see who the dogs are gonna, you know, who Bash was gonna go towards. And. And so, yeah. And then it did end up becoming a coin toss. And that's how we found out that I would get to keep him.

[Anna Martin]

When that coin was in the air, was it, like, time slowed down?

[Rami Youssef]

Yeah. There was this. But you know what? I had this innate. I just knew that was my dog. I didn't have. I was doubtless, somehow, once I got there, I just felt, this is what's gonna happen.

[Anna Martin]

I wonder, too. Just along this vein of questions we ask about romantic partners, I would ask about a conflict that they'd navigated So I want to pose this to you and Basha. Has there been a tussle, an emotional tussle that you two have had to navigate together?

[Rami Youssef]

Well, one time when we were living in la, I yelled at him pretty. Like, I yelled at him more than I've ever yelled, but it was because he was basically out on the front yard of where we were, and a coyote was trying to lure him. Was trying to lure him out to this path.

[Anna Martin]

Wait, wait, describe this scene. So you're in the home. Where are you?

[Rami Youssef]

In the front yard. And then this coyote pulls up to the perimeter of the yard. Basha darts at him. And then I know what this coyote's agenda is, so I'm going, dude, don't fall for it. And. And I scream at. I scream in a way that I. You know, when they go, people can all of a sudden pick up a car because their kids are. Of course, the way. The sound that came out of my body.

[Anna Martin]

Wait, can you mimic it? So.

[Rami Youssef]

No, no, it would lower. You keep it. No, no, it would blow your mic. I mean, it's crazy. So I scream in this way. That is so crazy. And it actually made him stop and made the coyote, like, just leave. It was. It was. It was wild. It was really wild. And then he ended up coming back. But this thing happened, and I always thought it'd be cool to be able to actually get into what that was with him. Like, hey, dude.

[Anna Martin]

Oh, it's interesting because you yelled at him because you were so. But then when he came. Because that is. I mean, that's terrifying. When he came back into your arms, was it a thing where it was like, don't do that again, or was it just pure love, like, I have you back and you're safe?

[Rami Youssef]

I don't think it was either. I think I was like, man, get inside, dude. You're pissing me off, dude, I can't believe you almost did that. I was. I think I was only angry, and then I had a sore throat for, like, two days because my.

[Anna Martin]

You really.

[Rami Youssef]

I really. No, no, no. It was everything. It was. It was like. I, like, might have blown a vocal. I don't know what I did. I didn't get diagnosed, but it was. It was pretty. Yeah. There was nothing sweet about it. I was like, you're inside now forever.

[Anna Martin]

That makes sense. You are married now. You've been married to your wife for a few years. But when you adopted Basha, where were you two in your relationship? What was happening?

[Rami Youssef]

Yeah, we. We knew each other, and it was kind of this, you know, I. I had wanted to meet her family, and I hadn't yet. So we. But we were kind of not. I think there was something too, when I got Basha where I think even with us, it was like. I think he brought us even closer together, you know, because it was.

[Anna Martin]

Don't tell me about that.

[Rami Youssef]

It was just this, you know, when you're getting to know someone, there's always this like, am I in? Am I out? And then I get this super cute dog, and she's like, no, no, I'm definitely in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I just felt a confidence begin to emerge, you know, in her or

[Anna Martin]

in you or in both.

[Rami Youssef]

In her. I knew. I think she maybe needed to still be sold. Rightfully so. And so the. I would say, basha, ultimate wingman, you'd

[Anna Martin]

be like, and, bro, thank you so much for that. Like, that was.

[Rami Youssef]

That was really cool how you.

[Anna Martin]

You killed it.

[Rami Youssef]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

We're married now. You probably.

[Rami Youssef]

Yeah, I love my life because of you.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah. You are highlighting something that is interesting, which is like, I have. You know, when you walk around with a cute dog, whatever, you're getting mobbed by people, right? Like, this is a. It's a person magnet. And really, it's like a feelings magnet. Right. Like, people are so unguarded around dogs in a way, we're so guarded around other people, especially in my experience, around people we're dating in early stages with whom we want to show our best selves. Right. Like, there's something about a dog that is an invitation to open up in a way that seems like it was useful for you, and you're then the person you were dating at the time who's now your wife. Can you remember, how did you introduce Basha to your now wife? Was it a big deal?

[Rami Youssef]

She met him? You know, it was because I told her, I was like, hey, this is gonna happen. And so that was very discussed about and exciting. And. And I think that, like, to your point, too, of how a dog can magnetize people towards you, you know, I'll have this thing happen to me when I'm walking in New York and, you know, people stop me. You know, this is a thing that even before I had my show or I've ever had anything on tv, I did so much comedy in New York that people would stop me and be like, say, hey, I saw you the other night at this comedy venue, whatever. This has always been kind of my relationship with New York since my 20s, my early 20s. But the funny thing is, when I walk with Basha, people Won't even see me. They'll just see him. And so it'll be this thing where I'll have an interaction with someone and people will talk to a dog and not even look at the person who's holding the dog. And they have this like, full on kind of, you know, talky like, you know that cadence. And then they don't even look at you. And then they walk away. So sometimes that'll happen. Or they'll have this thing with the dog. And then as they're walking away, already moving, they've already put one foot. They'll lock eyes with me.

[Anna Martin]

And then.

[Rami Youssef]

And I see them and I see the thing where they're like, rami. But then I just keep moving because I go, this is over. You know, I really have to. I already have to go somewhere. And if there was going to be a moment, you know, you didn't even look at me. You were just looking at the dog.

[Anna Martin]

So I'm jealous now.

[Rami Youssef]

This is over. Yeah, this is over. This is. This is. But in a weird way, he helps me draw less attention to myself.

[Anna Martin]

Wow.

[Rami Youssef]

Because it becomes all about him. And so it's is very. He's very powerful in that way.

[Anna Martin]

We'll be right back.

[Rami Youssef]

And Doug, there's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual. Even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show.

[Anna Martin]

Hey, everyone, check out this guy and his bird.

[Rami Youssef]

What is this, your first date? Oh, no. We help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual together. We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah, the bird looks out of your league.

[Rami Youssef]

Anyways, get a'@libertymutual.com or with your local agent.

[Anna Martin]

Liberty. Liberty. Liberty.

[Rami Youssef]

Liberty. Folks knew the colonel approved of his new honey Chili crisp and jalapeno ranch

[Anna Martin]

sauces the moment he tasted them and said,

[Rami Youssef]

that's right. No notes, just absolute silence.

[Anna Martin]

Turns out some flavors don't need explaining,

[Rami Youssef]

they just need dipping. It's saucy season at KFC with new

[Anna Martin]

honey Chili crisp and Jalapeno Ranch. Get dipping with a boneless bucket today.

[Rami Youssef]

Prices and participation vary.

[Anna Martin]

Okay, we have a dog related essay for you to read for us. It's a great one. It's a heartwarming one. I would love for you to take it away. Whenever you're ready.

[Rami Youssef]

Opening the heart's floodgates with a paw by Amy Sutherland. The quiet young man had come to me looking for love. Ideally at first sight. I asked my usual questions about his work, where he lived, how he spent his free time. I asked about his great loves of the past, what had worked or not worked in those relationships. Then I asked how he felt about being jumped on, slobbered on, or getting mud all over his couch. I'm okay with that, he said. Can I meet Chance? Ah, Chance. The young lab mixed with a puppy zeal for life who loved to chew on the shelter volunteer's hands as we leashed him. Behave yourself for once, I urged Chance as I opened the kennel. He was quiet as I slipped on a harness, but when we turned to leave, he began to buck wildly. My heart sank. Then I saw the face of the young man waiting by the door. He'd gone all moony. He only had eyes for Chance. Much to my surprise, I've become a matchmaker. On Saturday afternoons, I pull on my gray T shirt and head to the Animal Rescue League of Boston, where I help people find their canine soulmates amid the barky din. Doing this work, I've not only learned how to pair up people and canines, I've received a masterclass in the expansiveness of the human heart, a lesson that I very much needed. Being a matchmaker was never my plan. I began volunteering at the shelter to help dogs. Just dogs. And the more time I spent with the dogs, the more my love for my fellow man withered. At the shelter, I walked dogs that had been abandoned for trivial reasons or for no reason at all. I cared for pups that had been tied to utility poles on the street in wintertime, others so thin they had to wear coats in balmy spring weather, lacking the body mass to stay warm at 60 degrees. The more I walked these dogs, the more I became an animal person. To be called an animal person is not necessarily a compliment, not when it implies that you love animals with a passion matched only by how much you loathe your own species. Animal people can be judgmental, self righteous, and cranky, all of which I was becoming. As I spent more time at the shelter, I found that I became less patient with human beings. Even my sweet husband. Walking the dogs would cheer me up, but my mood would darken as I fixated on the stupidity and carelessness of my fellow Homo sapiens. On the subway ride home, I often caught myself frowning at strangers on the train. Then I realized that if I truly wanted to help the dogs, I needed to do more than exercise or comfort them. I had to help them get out of the shelter faster before kennel life turned them into whirling dervishes that no one would adopt. So I asked to be trained to introduce dogs to their potential adopters. In the early going, helping with adoptions made my dismal opinion of people worse. I had to answer too many silly questions. What are those droopy things on her belly? And field nonsensical requests. I want a dog I can create 12 hours a day, but who will run with me on weekends? Then one Saturday afternoon, I noticed a young outdoorsy couple walking down the row of kennels, stopping to say hello to each dog. I asked if they wanted to meet one. Can we meet Sierra? The man asked. Sierra? I squeaked. Really? I mean, yeah, of course you can. No one ever asked to see Sierra, a young mutt with skinny legs that went this way and that, shiny and black like a seal. She was cute but regularly pooped right in her kennel, then ran back and forth in it. She thought it was fun to grab your arm with her small mouth, hard, or, if you dared to sit on the floor, pounce on your head. She zoomed around her kennels as if on amphetamines. This was her big chance. I didn't want to mislead this couple about what a nut she was, but I did want her to find a home. I asked them to follow me to a bare bones room with a stained rug and couch. Why don't we stand? I suggested as I began reading the notes on Sierra out loud. I dropped her leash and hoped for the best. She began ricocheting around the room, bouncing off the couch, the bookcases, and the man's legs as her leash snapped behind her. She was an airbound blur of black, her mouth wide open, joy in her eyes. On one pass, she ripped my clipboard out of my hand and kept running As I muffled a sigh. The couple laughed hard. I looked up. Their faces glowed. I love her, the man said. Me too, said the woman. We want her. Everyone knows that dogs can be firehose like gushers of unqualified love. Humans, in contrast, have always struck me more as takers than givers, fickle lovers who are cagey with their affections and hearts. But in watching people tumble for goofballs like Sierra, I saw that my own species longs, maybe even needs, to gush unqualified love, too, something we rarely do with other humans, even with a mate. A dog may eat our Italian loafers but will never ghost us or say we need to have a talk with them. We can let it all hang out at the shelter. That's what people did with our one eyed pugs, our ancient hounds with bald patches and juveniles who hopped like kangaroos. Watching people fall in love so completely with dogs, I began to see how humans long to give their hearts away. Of course there are outliers, cool customers set on French bulldogs of a certain shade, or people who turn up their noses at pit bulls. Even the smush mouth little pittie puppies. And the difficulties of human relationships can keep the love from flowing. I spent one afternoon introducing one small dog after another to a doughy man and his wife. As the man sighed happily at each pooch, his wife ran her hand over the dog's coat, then sniffed her manicured fingers to check on her allergies. Not him. He's making me sniffle. By the end of the afternoon, the man was sitting in the lobby with his head in his hands while his wife dug her fingers into a tangle of white fur named William. You're breaking my heart, he moaned. I wanted to tell him to take William and leave the wife behind, but most of us are like the middle aged couple who came in looking for a mellow pint sized dog to fit in their one bedroom beachside apartment. We had no miniatures that day, but on a long shot I pointed the men to a good natured shepherd mix with a coat like a shag rug, about the size of a motorcycle. He might take up half the couch, I told them, but he'll happily lounge all day. He's gigantic. One exclaimed, smiling. We should go, the other said. For the next hour, each time I walked in and out of the kennels, there stood the couple beaming at the behemoth. Watching them fall for the fuzzy giant, a dog completely at odds with what they claimed to want, I felt the remaining coldness in my heart for my species begin to thaw. I wanted to help them. I wanted to help people do what they so obviously needed to do. Love wholeheartedly, with reckless abandon. I had always thought of love as a response, but this couple and others showed me that it's an innate feeling, something we are born with and need to express. Many of us have more love inside than we know what to do with, but are too bottled up, which is where dogs can come in with them. We can let our love flow freely without fear of being judged or rejected. They are like safety valves. They certainly had become that for me. But as I saw the couple making kissy noises to the shepherd through his kennel door, I realized I had relied on dogs for this. To a fault with humans. I had bottled myself up and love doesn't like to be bottled up. That's how you end up frowning at strangers on the train. Watching people fall in love is contagious. I began to swoon at the whole scene. I loved the dog. I loved the couple. Okay, time you all met, I announced, grabbing a leash. Soon after, the three of them went home together to try to squeeze into their cozy apartment. I returned to the kennels to help more people toss their hearts away.

[Anna Martin]

Stay with us.

[Rami Youssef]

And Doug. There's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual, even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show.

[Anna Martin]

Hey, everyone, check out this guy and his bird.

[Rami Youssef]

What is this, your first date? Oh, no. We help people customize and save up on car insurance with Liberty Mutual together. We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah, the bird looks out of your league.

[Rami Youssef]

Anyways, get a [e-mail] or with your local agent.

[Anna Martin]

Liberty, Liberty. Liberty, Liberty.

[Rami Youssef]

Some songs that I've written I started on the piano. That happened with All I Want for Christmas Is yous. If you couldn't tell, that is Mariah Carey. I'm John Caramonica, one of the critics behind the New York Times 30 Greatest Living American Songwriters Project. We interviewed some of the songwriters on our list, including Taylor Swift, who hasn't sat for a video like this in a long time. These are not ordinary conversations. You're going to watch these videos and learn about intimate approaches to craft in ways that you rarely have access to. My mom had got me this notebook,

[Anna Martin]

and I was just writing it really small because I didn't want anybody to read what I was writing.

[Rami Youssef]

Okay, Jay Z's Teenage notebooks. I need to see those. Watch all the video interviews for free and check out the entire 30 Greatest Living American Songwriters project at nytimes.com 30 greatest or in the app. And let us know if you agree with our picks. I bet you won't.

[Anna Martin]

Okay, so the author writes that many of us have more love inside us than we know what to do with. We're too bottled up, and that's where dogs come in. We can let our love flow freely without fear of being judged or rejected, she writes. Do you agree with the author on this? Is this how you feel around Basha?

[Rami Youssef]

Yeah. I mean, there's an unlocking, I think, of love that I felt. You know, I think I felt something, especially having a dog as an adult as opposed to when I had one as a kid because, you know, I remember the Childhood dog that we had when he passed away, it was so hard. And so you don't know that the first time you get a dog as a kid, like, you kind of can feel it in the abstract, but you don't want to think about it. And I think a friend of mine had told me this quote, and I think it's a quote. I don't think it's his. But you know that dogs are here to teach us about death. Because you love in such an unfiltered, massive way, like this piece, so beautifully put. And you so definitively know, or best case scenario, is that the dog dies before you. Right. So that is a. There's a lot you learn from that about love and that, you know, you still give into it.

[Anna Martin]

You're aware of the finite nature of it. Right. And so because you're aware of that, you're saying you just pour so much of yourself into this relationship. Why can't we seem to do that with humans? Is my question to you? Like, what's our problem when it comes to them?

[Rami Youssef]

I mean, I think that we should. I mean, you know, there's a hubris in thinking that we know how long we will be around or our loved ones will be around, you know, and. And we've all. I mean, and maybe not all. I've certainly had friends who were there one day and weren't the next day. And that is really hard, you know, and. And you kind of go, man, you know, I wish this or that. And I think that there's something to. Yeah. Just kind of being present with the gratitude as much as we can to the capacity that we can. Look, we're not. No, we don't. It's delusional maybe to say that genuinely living every day like your last day. But what if we were able to kind of live more days that way? That could be cool. More days than not.

[Anna Martin]

Because dogs might be doing that. Yeah. I mean, it's the classic thing, but it's like every time you come home, I would assume Basha is like, oh, yeah. Is like the first time you've ever come home ever. I mean, it's so wonderful.

[Rami Youssef]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah. The author writes that she's. She's an animal person, but she has her doubts about humans. Would you say animal person? Human person. Which one are you? Which one do you tend towards?

[Rami Youssef]

I mean, both. But honestly, I'm probably more of a human person.

[Anna Martin]

Huh.

[Rami Youssef]

You know, because I think that there's kind of this essential responsibility to be super nuanced and loving with humans. That is actually kind of described here, which I think she. So beautifully named. I think she names it in a very vulnerable way. But when you see in practice, sometimes it is kind of hard to reckon with. Cause you kind of go, hey, do you only care about dogs? Like, what the. Like, what's fucking going on, dude? Can you get it together?

[Anna Martin]

It is interesting.

[Rami Youssef]

Yes. It is weird, you know, I mean, it's not, you know, I'm not saying it from a judgment. I mean, maybe I am being judgmental. I don't know. But I am definitely.

[Anna Martin]

Like, it's not judgmental to me.

[Rami Youssef]

Yes. Okay. But like. And she is. So she gets it as well. So she's saying it in a very poetic way. But she's kind of like, yeah, this is an issue, you know.

[Anna Martin]

Okay, I want to be clear on again what you're sort of judging but not judging. Which, again, I think the author probably is too, which is like, people who are animal people, but to the exclusion of being a human person. Like, it's like, you can extend this love towards a dog, right? But this love is not as readily or freely given towards a human. And I guess that's why I asked you the impossible question of, like, well, how can we take that love, that pure, unfiltered, joyful, uncomplicated love we have for animals and transmute it onto our love for humans? But I'm realizing as his, it's just impossible.

[Rami Youssef]

Like, no, no, it's not possible. It takes practice. It just takes practice. You know, it just takes. It takes, like, how. Like, how it's. You. You are learning, you know, how to be expansive and take people as they are. And so, you know. Yeah, I don't, like, you know, jokingly, my judgment is really around the same observation she points out, which is for a lot of people, you know, they let it end with the animal and don't even try to extend it into the human. I'm not saying it's a seamless thing. I'm not saying it'll reach the same level. But I think that we're all teaching each other something, you know?

[Anna Martin]

Yeah. I like that loving dogs can be a gateway to loving humans more fully.

[Rami Youssef]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

You mentioned when people run into you on the street with Basha, they're like, loving on Basha. And then they look up at you and they're like, all right, bye, dude. Like, they don't even register you sometimes. And so I'm thinking about, like, an immediately implementable way to start loving humans a little more. Like, I love animals, and I'm not gonna use a baby voice around humans, but I will find myself. I live in New York, too. Walking down the street and, like, I am clocking dogs. I'm looking at dogs. I'm making eye contact. I'm smiling with dogs. Like, I'm really acknowledging their existence around me. And I don't. But I'm, like, on the train, I'm, eyes averted, not making eye contact with anyone. And so, again, I'm working this out as I'm saying this, but I'm like, maybe there is a way where I can just, like, meet someone's eyes and we can validate each other's existences and we can smile just like I do with dogs. You think that's a good first step?

[Rami Youssef]

Maybe not. As a woman, I wouldn't do that, because that's gonna open up a whole other can of worms for you. I would keep the stoic lack of eye contact, because if you give these guys an inch on the subway, I mean, they're just gonna be chasing you up the stairs asking for your number. Yeah, yeah. It is not there's. Unfortunately, yeah, that's part of it.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah. You're so right. As soon as I said that, I was like, but I don't wanna be doing that.

[Rami Youssef]

No. Oh, you can't do that.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah, totally. Well, way to shoot it down. But thank you for looking out. Okay, think with me for, like, one second. Like, what is a way we can try to extend our love for a dog to humans in a way that doesn't, like, make our commutes just total

[Rami Youssef]

living hell, you know? You know how sometimes you'll go into a store and they'll have a little jar that has dog treats for the dogs?

[Anna Martin]

Yes.

[Rami Youssef]

I think that stores that have food should have food for people who can't afford food. Like just some bread. Bread for. If you don't have money. And I swear people will not take advantage of it and will know to leave it for the people who don't have money.

[Anna Martin]

I really love that. This, like, hey, you're hungry. Take this treat. Just because, you know, it's on us to extend that.

[Rami Youssef]

How much does every restaurant in this city throw out at the end of the night? I mean, you know, it's. You know, I get it. It's hard. I don't have a food business, so I don't. I'm not. But, you know, just to your question, that's the first thing that comes to mind.

[Anna Martin]

Another big part of the essay is that Amy marvels at how people will Come in thinking they want one type of dog, and they come out with a totally different type of dog. Which brings me to my question, which you sort of touched on. But it's like, does the dog choose the human or does the human choose the dog? Or is it a bit of both? What do you think?

[Rami Youssef]

Well, I firmly believe that the reason you start something is not the thing that you have to remain loyal to. So I guess the way that I kind of want to say that is sometimes this happens all the time in the creative process. You have an immediate idea, all right? There's two pieces to that. There's the idea that is kind of the concrete thing that it looks like. And then there's the reason you want to execute the idea, which is actually the important thing. It's kind of the spiritual compulsion to. What's making you attracted to even trying to connect with people vis a vis the specific idea. So once you start going down that road, the way the specific idea looks changes all the time, and the goal is that it should change to kind of match your natural inclination as much as possible. And so what I thought was so beautiful here is this invitation to humans to not be so kind of cemented in their preconceived notions, to not be so rigid or even biblical to their just initial desire and kind of saying, well, that's not going to move because I had this idea that's not a way to find a human partner. And it's obviously in this essay, not a way to find a dog. And so I think the thing that was so beautiful in zoning in on it this way is just. It's this invitation to kind of say, all right, you came here for the right reasons, but you might get something that looks different than what was in your head and that isn't a betrayal. If anything, that might be like an actualization of what your true emotion was and less your idea of your emotion.

[Anna Martin]

Huh. Well, I mean, it is this thing where it's like, maybe we just don't know what we want. Maybe we just don't know we could be wrong and to allow ourselves the flexibility to grow and change.

[Rami Youssef]

I think it's. I think you're giving yourself the ability to feel what you want as opposed to think what you want, you know, And I think there's something that's kind of intuitive that can happen where it's, like, less logical. And I don't mean that in something being, you know, not thought through. It's really important to engage your brain. I don't think Chasing feelings is a way to live. But I think that there's a real difference between kind of chasing carnal whims and having intuition and kind of knowing, you know, I have an intuitive feeling here and that this is right. Cause that does. The brain worked on that. But then you're trusting, you know, that's trusting your gut.

[Anna Martin]

You know, I mean, I'm thinking back to the coin toss, where it was your fate of whether you'd have Basho was gonna be decided. And this part of you knew.

[Rami Youssef]

Yeah, I knew. I knew how. I knew how it was gonna spin. Yeah, I knew exactly.

[Anna Martin]

Hearing you talk about the sort of, you know, knowing what we want, but the idea of it remaining. I mean, all of this, I'm like, you already have enough jobs. But I'm like, you would do really well at a dog adoption agency. I just do think you'd do well, you know, like doing Amy's job.

[Rami Youssef]

You know, I used to work at the Apple Store, which was very similar. I could kind of guide people to whether they needed a MacBook Air or a pro.

[Anna Martin]

It's very similar.

[Rami Youssef]

Some people walked in thinking they needed a pro. And then the more we talked about it, I said, I think you need an air. You're not. You don't need that much compute.

[Anna Martin]

Think about your gut, your intuition.

[Rami Youssef]

Let's just really, like Apple Watch. Yeah, I know, like, a high amount of RAM feels right, but what do you actually need?

[Anna Martin]

Just get the ipod. Mini. I mean, I guess, like, big picture, Amy is talking about how watching humans with dogs has sort of reaffirmed her belief in all of our capacity to love. Dogs have taught her about love. And I feel like I've asked you this question in various guises, but I want to ask again because you have such nice answers. What do you think, Basha? What has Basha taught you about love?

[Rami Youssef]

He helps me sometimes do nothing, which is hard for me. So there are times where I kind of go, okay, can I just spend time with him? Just rolling around on the carpet doing nothing other than that. That's a big lesson in being still, you know? You know, it's weird, but rolling around with a dog is a form of stillness because it's. Yeah, again, I'm not engaging anything in presence.

[Anna Martin]

You're being present.

[Rami Youssef]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

Rama Youssef, thank you so much for this conversation. I so enjoyed it.

[Rami Youssef]

Thank you.

[Anna Martin]

If you want to read Amy Sutherland's Modern Love essay, the one that we talked about in today's episode, we'll have the link in our show notes. The Modern Love team is Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Lynn Levy, Reeva Goldberg and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Elisa Gutierrez. It was edited by Lynn Levy and Davis Land. Our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez. Original music in this episode by Alicia Beitu and Amin Sahota, Diane Wong and Dan Powell. Dan also composed our theme music. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones, and Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we have the instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.

[Rami Youssef]

And Doug, there's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual. Even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show.

[Anna Martin]

Hey, everyone. Check out this guy and his bird. What is this, your first date?

[Rami Youssef]

Oh, no. We help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual. Together. We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah, the bird looks out of your league.

[Rami Youssef]

Anyways, get a [e-mail] or with your local agent.

[Anna Martin]

Liberty. Liberty. Liberty.

[Rami Youssef]

Liberty.