Anna Martin (2:41)

I'm so excited you are now A double memoirist. Yes. Will you make it a third, a triple memoir in a couple years, or is this enough for.

Malala Yousafzai (2:49)

Oh, I just wanna focus on this one for now.

Anna Martin (2:52)

That makes sense. How many memoir can one person write? Do you think there's a limit?

Malala Yousafzai (2:56)

I think people know when it's time to write one. I actually waited for this one. I was asked by so many people, why don't you write another book? And I was like, about what? Like, who wants to write if there's nothing meaningful? But the timing of Finding My Way? My new memoir just felt right, and I knew there was something to share that is meaningful to people.

Anna Martin (3:15)

Tell me more about how you knew the moment was right to begin writing. I love that, that you waited, even though people were clamoring. It sounds like, how did you know the time was right?

Malala Yousafzai (3:26)

I was reflecting on how I had become a young woman. I was known in the public eye as a girl who was shot by the Taliban at age 15. And I was still meeting people who would see me as that girl. And I wanted to reintroduce myself beyond those titles, beyond those headlines. And I wanted to show that now I have experienced much more. I had this incredible time at college. I made incredible friends. I had my first love. I am married. I have been going through other challenges and difficulties, from like, mental health to even coming to a decision about marriage itself. But this is all a part of me. And activism is, of course, the mission of my life. But, you know, I. I'm more than that as well. And I wanted to share the personal story. So these are, you know, these are the true reflections of me.

Anna Martin (4:27)

This is, I think, very important. And part of the reason I. I loved this book so much is, you know, you're. You are so immediately recognizable, right? Your name, your face, your work. And I loved how this book, it talks about big things, certainly, but at the same time, there were all of these small, ordinary, everyday details about your life that I thought just added dimension. I felt very grateful that you were sharing those things with us.

Malala Yousafzai (4:55)

I think we see this perfect image of everybody on social media or the way people usually tell their story is like, you know, they somehow knew how to figure it all out. But I had to be very honest that I was actually very shy at school. I was so scared that I will never be able to make any friends. So in college, of course, I was, you know, there because I wanted to study at Oxford. But more than anything, I just wanted to make friends. I did not want to feel alone anymore.

Anna Martin (5:27)

Before you went to College. When you were a teenager, it seemed to me, reading this book, that you had quite a serious life. Right? You're flying to speak with world leaders and be on panels. You're doing public activism work. What was it like for you to be doing all of this stuff so young and so close to the attack? What was that like?

Malala Yousafzai (5:50)

When I look back, I feel very different because now I see how I had somehow accepted the global recognition I was given. And I felt like people were defining me when I was still in a coma. They were calling me brave, courageous and activist. Speaks truth to power, all of that. And I was like, wow, I'm 15. I have to start my school again and figure out my life in a new country in the uk. So much to process. Yet this is now the mission of my life. Somehow I was forcing myself to accept that. In school, I had literally no friends. I only made one best friend. By the end of my school time, I would still talk to my old friends from Pakistan, have those long calls with them. And the rest of my time I was either with the family at home or I would be traveling, doing speeches and conferences. So my exposure was very limited. I actually had not seen boys my age.

Anna Martin (6:58)

Cause you went to an all girls school.

Malala Yousafzai (6:59)

I went to an all girls school. And it was like, just older people.

Anna Martin (7:03)

They weren't so amazing. At age 15, I'll just share that. As someone who wasn't, I know that.

Malala Yousafzai (7:07)

I found out when I went to 15, I wasn't missing anything. Yeah, no, I was like, oh, I'm glad I saw it. And now I know. Now I know.

Anna Martin (7:15)

But they smell kind of weird, don't you think?

Malala Yousafzai (7:18)

A lot of things. I think that could be a different podcast for us. But it was just this feeling that, you know, I was not living the life a child should be living at age 15. So at college, like, much later, when I was not being watched by my parents, when I felt I could be myself and there are not these work people after me asking me to do this and that and. And I thought I had just more control over, like, my life. That's when I was like, okay, I'm gonna, like, you know, just hang out, do these crazy things. Somebody wants me to climb the rooftop. I will. Late night parties. I will. Yeah, I think it's. I thought that college would be just this limited time of my life where I get to do anything I want. And then after that, maybe I'll just go back to the old, you know, serious life. But I was like, this is that time. The Three years where I'm studying at Oxford. Maybe I. And be more adventurous.

Anna Martin (8:18)

Right. Before you go to Oxford. This moment in the book tickled me so much. You're trying to figure out what to pack, what to wear. Yes. Because your mom had chosen your outfits, right? Yes. Do you remember? I mean, of course, it's your life, but why don't you share what you did in order to figure out, you know, what to pack? I loved this detail.

Malala Yousafzai (8:36)

I know. I love my mom, but she's a very strict mom and she was always deciding what I should be wearing. Same for university. She said, let me pack everything for you. So it was, you know, traditional dresses, Shalwar kameez, and my mom always got me a size bigger than mine somehow. And it's just no sense of fashion. None of that for me.

Anna Martin (9:01)

Much love, mom, though. We'll see you.

Malala Yousafzai (9:02)

I know, I know, but. And for me at university, it was about me feeling like every other student. And I did not want to stand out because, of course, when I wear my Shalwar Kameez, the traditional Pakistani dress, I do stand out. And people have seen me in the public eye in those outfits. So I wanted to just wear a jumper, just jeans, a sweater. Again, I'm decoding trousers, a hoodie, pants.

Anna Martin (9:30)

Oh, my goodness. Now it's become kind of a bit.

Malala Yousafzai (9:33)

But sorry, I'm uk.

Anna Martin (9:35)

No, it's totally fine. I'm translating for those who don't understand casual.

Malala Yousafzai (9:38)

Very, very casual clothes that you just assimilate and you are like any other student. That's what I wanted. I was like, I just want to be a normal student. So, yeah, my would put a Pakistani dress, I would remove it and put in a jumper. And somehow I found a way out through that and I took these, you know, more casual clothes. And my search on Google at the time was Selena Gomez 2017. Casual outfits.

Anna Martin (10:05)

Was it like a lot of infinity scarves? Do you remember those things?

Malala Yousafzai (10:08)

Yes. And just like those long sort of gemstone kind of necklaces.

Anna Martin (10:13)

Yes. We were so. It looked like chandeliers.

Malala Yousafzai (10:15)

Yeah.

Anna Martin (10:16)

Why were we dressing like that?

Malala Yousafzai (10:17)

Too many scarves around their neck.

Anna Martin (10:20)

So many infinity scarves when it wasn't even cold. I will say, but I want to.

Malala Yousafzai (10:24)

Forget all of those artifacts.

Anna Martin (10:25)

You're right. We should move on. We should move on. We should move on. So you get to Oxford with a suitcase full of Selena Gomez casual.

Malala Yousafzai (10:32)

Yes.

Anna Martin (10:33)

Who were the people you were drawn to as friends?

Commercial Narrator (10:38)

Wow.

Malala Yousafzai (10:39)

I was exploring the whole university. I was saying hello to almost everybody because there was no Criteria for me, I wanted to meet as many people. There were incredible people in my subject group. Every friend was unique in their own way and we had a lot in common, but also very different experiences in terms of our background, where we had come from. There was always something to talk about and always something to learn when you were with friends. They made Oxford life more fun for me because this was the time when I was not being asked about, what was it like meeting that president? And so what do you do through Malala Fund? It was about, how was your essay last week? Wasn't that question so hard? Did you figure it out? This tutor is like so annoying. Or can we skip this lecture, please?

Anna Martin (11:40)

Yeah, yeah.

Malala Yousafzai (11:41)

These were the conversations. And that's exactly what I wanted. I wanted to be a student. I wanted to be treated as a friend. And all of these people, the incredible friends I made at Oxford made me feel like I was their friend. And I felt so secure with them not being judged. And yeah, this was the most precious thing from college.

Anna Martin (12:04)

You are making friends. You're doing all these, you know, totally normal college activities. Yes. And yet you do have a security detail that follows you on campus. Are they quite literally everywhere with you just a few steps behind or how was that?

Malala Yousafzai (12:20)

Yeah, they're following you. They are non uniform and they want to keep it as normal for you as they can.

Anna Martin (12:27)

Sure.

Malala Yousafzai (12:28)

But there is a point where your friends are like, we see these strangers behind you every day. Are you okay? Are they following you? And I'm like, no, no, they're just taking care of me. Don't worry.

Anna Martin (12:38)

They would come to like parties and stuff.

Malala Yousafzai (12:40)

Yeah, okay, that's fine. Yeah.

Anna Martin (12:41)

I mean, some older guys at the party.

Malala Yousafzai (12:43)

Yeah, quite older.

Anna Martin (12:45)

Yes, quite older. They could blend in. You also got up to some mischief in college in the dead of night. Tell me about that.

Malala Yousafzai (12:54)

Yeah, so in college I found out about rooftop climbing and this is some like a secret thing that these students do where they're like, we want to get in trouble. Trouble. So in our college at Oxford, there's the bell tower and it's not easy to get up there. So you have to go up to the top. Yeah.

Anna Martin (13:17)

Describe it for me in case I want to ever go to Oxford and sort of climb this.

Malala Yousafzai (13:21)

I think you should not do that.

Anna Martin (13:23)

You're right.

Malala Yousafzai (13:23)

I think it's not allowed anymore. But, you know, so you go up to the top floor of the main Talbot Hall.

Anna Martin (13:31)

Okay.

Malala Yousafzai (13:32)

And you get into this small room there and there is a small window and you open that window, you sneak out through the window. And there is this narrow roof path, but it's very narrow.

Anna Martin (13:52)

I'm getting so anxious. But keep going. Yes.

Malala Yousafzai (13:54)

You could put like one foot at a time, basically.

Anna Martin (13:56)

Like, show me with your hands how narrow is it? Don't you even say that.

Malala Yousafzai (14:00)

It's very narrow. It's basically like the roofs, sort of.

Anna Martin (14:04)

The edge, you know, the side you're clinging on.

Malala Yousafzai (14:06)

And then there's like another part where you sort of have to, like, jump to. Now, this next part of the roof. It's very scary. So I had, like. I had that mysterious friend who took me there. And they're like, you know, were helping me. And so they jumped before and then I jumped after.

Anna Martin (14:23)

It's night, right?

Malala Yousafzai (14:25)

It's midnight. It's very late at night.

Anna Martin (14:27)

Are there lights around? Describe it and put me in that moment with you the first time. So it's dark outside. You're looking out, right about to take that jump. What's going through your mind?

Malala Yousafzai (14:37)

It's very dark in the college. It's quiet. And I felt like it was just me who was in control of what was happening. And we were about to climb the rooftop was a very risky journey because you are walking on these very narrow path of the roof. And one misstep, you will fall from the fourth floor of the building. I don't think you will survive. And you go up to the bell tower, and you sort of sit in there, and you could see, you know, the. The bell above you, and it's just so beautiful. You look down, you could see the whole college. You're wondering who's doing what in their room. Some have their lights on, and some might be sleeping right now. You look at the library, who's still studying at midnight, and you look down and you are like, are these the college security? I hope they're not looking for you. And I had just told my security that night that I was done with everything. You guys can go to bed. So I was just looking at sort of their room as well. You're feeling alone and hoping that they do not suddenly wake up and look for me. It was a moment where I felt so close to nature, so close to myself. I could hear my heart. And it was just a magical, beautiful moment. And there I was, sitting with a stranger, just doing something that I should not have been doing. But I was okay to get in trouble. I wanted to try things without feeling like anybody was watching me. Anybody was judging me or commenting about me. It sounds too dramatic when I talk about it, but it Wasn't truly a moment when I felt that I am living the true college experience.

Anna Martin (16:43)

It is, to me, a really profound moment of, like, reckoning and introspection for you. Right. And you spoke about how you'd accepted this role other people had put you into and certainly that you'd also stepped into on your own with your work and your fund. But this is a thing, and I say this with utmost, you know, care. It's a stupid thing to do because it's so far up. But it's like you're doing it because you want to, right?

Malala Yousafzai (17:12)

Yes.

Anna Martin (17:12)

You're doing it because you're like, let's do it.

Malala Yousafzai (17:14)

Yeah. And that was my first time, but not my last time. And why did you keep doing it? It's really hard to explain trying. Climbing to the rooftop made me connect to a part of me that I thought had gone missing. I was a very adventurous person growing up in Pakistan. I loved to try new things. I was adventurous. And when my life took a sharp turn and I started a new life in a new country, I just thought I could never connect back to that old self or I would just never know what I would have been like if none of these things had happened, if I hadn't been attacked, if I hadn't started this activist life in a new place. That when I was in college and when I was climbing rooftops, I felt like I was connecting with that old part of me. With time, I have become that person that I try new things. I don't care if I do it wrong or if I get judged for it or what people think about it. With time, you just realize you have to live your life and you can't just dictate yourself or do the self sabotage on yourself where you feel like you are expected to live your life a certain way. And if you do it otherwise, then somehow you are not satisfying the expectations. So college was a time when I was slowly testing it.

Anna Martin (18:49)

I mean, what you're saying is really important. I think it wasn't so much a discovery of a part of yourself, it was rediscovery. Yes, yes. Now, this is a cheesy question, but bear with me. I wonder, and you can feel free to say no, but when you were up there, did you picture younger you, the one who had that adventurous spark?

Malala Yousafzai (19:11)

Yes. I could see the younger Malala. I am not a person who thinks too much about the past because my life has changed so much that if I put myself in that place where I'm thinking what it could have been like you can never be satisfied imagining your life differently. So in college, rather than thinking too much about what it would have been like if I were here, as you know, just that normal student and with no recognition and people had knew nothing about me and they were maybe not like watching me and it felt like that. And I'm not saying that, you know, people are actually watching you and people are actually commenting about you. Sometimes they do. That's sometimes how the social media world appears.

Anna Martin (20:01)

You have a level of scrutiny on.

Malala Yousafzai (20:03)

You that is also how you feel because it affects you so much. You know, I usually say it doesn't affect me or it shouldn't. I agree with that. I don't let it affect my work. But in the end, the truth is, yes, it does. Even if you are trying to fight it back or try to not let it distract you, but it is somehow influencing you.

Anna Martin (20:24)

You mean this sort of people watching you, this feeling? Yes, yes.

Malala Yousafzai (20:28)

So in college I felt like the eyes were not on me and I was in my own secret world. And I thought, I don't know who I'm supposed to be, but I'm going to experience these things, these emotions and that will tell me something about myself.

Anna Martin (20:48)

I'm going to jump.

Malala Yousafzai (20:50)

I'm going to jump. I'm going to climb. I'm going to swim. No, I can't swim.

Anna Martin (20:54)

No swimming. Stay with us.

Commercial Narrator (21:11)

As the holidays approach, get prepped for all your hosting and decorating needs with Wayfair. From dining tables and chairs that bring the whole family together to extra sheets and towels that make guests feel comfortable, Wayfair is your one stop shop for everything home this season. Transform your space into an entertainer's dream. Get everything you need to host all in one place at Wayfair. Plus Wayfair ships everything fast and easy right to your door. Shop all things home today@wayfair.com that's W-A-F-A-I-R.com Wayfair Every style, every home.

Malala Yousafzai (21:48)

And Doug Limu and I always tell you to customize your car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. But now we want you to feel it. Cue the emu music. Limu.

Anna Martin (21:56)

Save yourself money today.

Malala Yousafzai (22:00)

Increase your wealth.

Anna Martin (22:02)

Customize and save.

Malala Yousafzai (22:04)

We save. That may have been too much feeling.

Anna Martin (22:07)

Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty Liberty Liberty.

Malala Yousafzai (22:12)

Liberty Savings.

Anna Martin (22:13)

Very unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Co. An affiliate. It's excludes Massachusetts. Hi, I'm Juliette from New York Times Games and I'm here talking to fans about our games. So you play New York Times games? Yes. Do you have a favorite Connections?

Vanguard Announcer (22:24)

It just scratches an itch in my brain. It's really out of the box thinking with that game I play with my husband every night. I refuse to let him play it without me. He will always get the purple first and I always get like the fun ones that he doesn't think about.

Anna Martin (22:37)

I love that. It's like a real life connection while you guys play Connections. Very sweet.

Vanguard Announcer (22:41)

I promise I didn't play that.

Anna Martin (22:43)

You can play all New York times games@nytimes.com games or on our app. I appreciate that your book doesn't paint too rosy a picture of college. Right. You were having these, this freedom and you were going to parties and you had these friends and you're pulling all nighters. But you also dealt with some quite difficult stuff. Can you describe. You do this so vividly in the book. Can you describe the first time you had what you later found out was a panic attack?

Malala Yousafzai (23:26)

Yes. This panic attack was a life changing moment because I was attacked at age 15. I healed from a bullet and I thought the recovery is done. But many years later, when I had the first panic attack or the trauma or the flashbacks of what had happened, it made me feel like everything was coming back as if it had never gone. I felt like I was reliving those moments. So it happened, you know, this one night where initially felt like a normal night because I was working on my essay and I had, you know, an essay crisis. I was struggling. So this friend called me to the college gardens and she said, yeah, let's hang out. Some friends are here. I was like, maybe she might just give me her notes. So let's go and see her. I go there, we are chatting and I see this thing for the first time. And it's called bong.

Anna Martin (24:30)

It's a bong, right?

Malala Yousafzai (24:31)

It's a bong. And it's, you know, basically weed and. But you know, it's a different way of inhaling.

Anna Martin (24:36)

Totally. It is tricky. I will also say it's tricky.

Malala Yousafzai (24:40)

And I had no idea how to take it and what it was and how quickly it affects you. But my friends seemed fine. And on the first attempt I coughed and then on the second attempt I felt I inhaled it and it went all in. And I don't know where time went, but that was the turning point. It felt like a sharp turn where immediately my body froze. I could not understand time or the surrounding anymore. And I thought I was reliving the attack, that I could see the gunman that I was experiencing that near death experience where I felt like, you know, maybe I am dead, maybe this is afterlife. Am I alive or not? I just lost sense of reality. I had many panic attacks after that. My body would be sweating, I would be shaking, my heart would be throbbing. I could not sleep. As soon as I would try to close my eyes, I felt like it was a nightmare again and I would die. It was so scary. I thought nobody would understand it. I could not even talk to anybody about this because how do you explain to somebody that I'm experiencing all of this? And yeah, like an attack happened many years ago and I was completely normal yesterday. Like, I never thought this would happen. It was so unexpected. I'm so glad my friends were there for me. They helped me in this time. They could not explain it to me. They were not like my therapists, but they did small things like sharing meals with me or doing a sleepover. Like their sleepover was everything. That was the first time I could actually fall asleep for the first time. They have no idea, but I'll always remember that. And then in the end, it was another friend of mine who told me that I should see a therapist. I was so skeptical.

Anna Martin (26:43)

Had you seen a therapist up to that point?

Malala Yousafzai (26:45)

No. The first time I had seen a therapist briefly was at the hospital in Birmingham when I was recovering from the bullet injury.

Anna Martin (26:53)

Immediately after, yes.

Malala Yousafzai (26:55)

At the time, I had to go through so many other surgeries for the physical body recovery that I thought, what is this person asking me? How do I feel? Like, come on, like, look at me, I'm recovering. What has feelings got to do with any of that? I felt work kept me busy and distracted, and I just had no idea that something like this bong experience could trigger and bring back the trauma and ptsd. All of these things I had heard of, but I just never understood what that actually means when you experience it. When I had my first therapy session, it was a crazy experience because I was telling everything to the therapist and I was hoping that she would give me the medication or whatever cure they have.

Anna Martin (27:43)

Right.

Malala Yousafzai (27:44)

And soon I realized that that's not how it works. You have to accept and embrace it that now this is a part of you. You cannot banish it magically. With time, it can get smaller and smaller and it will affect you less and less. But you have to be willing to accept and live with it. I no longer see it as, yeah, like four sessions or 10 sessions. I think the problem will be fixed by then. Totally.

Anna Martin (28:11)

I mean, I really appreciate you Sharing is so. It was terrifying even reading about it. I mean, it really was. And, you know, it strikes me just as you're talking, like we spoke about this roof experience, experiences as this moment of discovering that your past was still with you.

Malala Yousafzai (28:34)

Yeah.

Anna Martin (28:34)

And I'm realizing that this panic attack was also the sort of, like, the shadow side of that. Right. With the past, with the sort of more full embrace of the past is not just, you know, the adventures and the, you know, that spirit. It's also. It's also the attack. Yes.

Malala Yousafzai (28:53)

And I think that's the part, maybe that frustrated me the most, because when you are labeled as a brave girl who has overcome an attack and is not afraid of the Taliban, and suddenly this moment where you're witnessing that moment of fear again and you feel the gunmen are right in front of you again, or you feel you have lost your life again, it's scary, but it's also embarrassing. Like, I was feeling embarrassed that somehow I had failed in meeting that label of being brave and courageous. I was in South Africa for this campaign that we are doing for Afghan women. I was giving the Nelson Mandela lecture, and we were bringing attention to what's happening in Afghanistan under the Taliban since they took power four years ago. Is a gender apartheid. Like, it is systemic oppression. Anyway, that was a visit. There I gave a speech, and there I also had a panic attack.

Anna Martin (29:54)

Oh, my gosh. Like, on stage or off?

Malala Yousafzai (29:56)

No, it was like after I had done all the events, the press, the speeches, there was, like, nothing triggering. And just all of a sudden, when I went to bed in the middle of the night, I just felt like I was. I felt I could not breathe anymore. And my husband was with me. He helped me through the whole night, but I was shaking. I was shivering.

Anna Martin (30:17)

This is more recently.

Malala Yousafzai (30:19)

Yeah, just like a few years ago. But just to say that even in moments, when I go on the stage and give a speech to stand up for women, and I say that we are not afraid of the extremists, and then I go, you know, back to my room. And that night, like, I'm shaking. I'm shivering because I'm having a panic attack. And I don't understand, because yet, like, in. Inside me, I know I can continue this fight, and I will keep on doing it, but physically and mentally, my body is responding in a way that I have no control on. But that doesn't stop me from doing what I want to do. I will advocate for the rights of Afghan women and girls. We will stand up to all extremists including the Taliban. We will have a better future for women and girls when they can just choose their own future, like whatever they want, just having more freedom and liberation. But it's not an easy journey and we have to be honest about it, how it can overwhelm us, how it can affect our own mental health. And so I'm sharing just a part of that in my book.

Anna Martin (31:25)

It's powerful and I appreciate you sharing it with me here. And I think of this word you used. Embarrassing.

Malala Yousafzai (31:35)

Yeah.

Anna Martin (31:35)

Can you tell me more about that word? Because it. I think I understand, but it's a harsh word to sort of turn on yourself. And I wonder about that. Why did it feel embarrassing to have a panic attack?

Malala Yousafzai (31:49)

It felt embarrassing because I thought I had failed in meeting up the expectation of being brave and strong. When people tell you that you stood up to the Taliban, how did you do that? How could you be so brave? I did not even have an answer to that. I would just simply say, education is my right. Why should anyone take it away from me? And now, like many years later when I had these panic attacks and I was just like, suddenly scared, it's not that the Taliban were standing right in front of me, but I felt it.

Anna Martin (32:21)

Yeah.

Malala Yousafzai (32:23)

It's something I wish, like, I can just make disappear. But that is to say that it is still brave when you are embarrassed, when you are scared, when you are afraid. But you still get up and do what you believe in. I think that is true bravery.

Anna Martin (32:43)

We'll be right back.

Vanguard Announcer (33:02)

What are you doing in a meeting? That could have been an email. That's right. You're losing interest. Don't let it happen to your money too. Vanguard's CashPlus account can't help you at work, but we can help with your savings because Vanguard believes in giving you more. So how much interest could you earn? Find out@vanguard vanguard.com cashplus offered by Vanguard Marketing Corporation member Finra and SIPC.

Malala Yousafzai (33:32)

Limu Emu and Doug. Here we have the Limu Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug. Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us. Cut the camera.

Commercial Narrator (33:53)

They see us.

Anna Martin (33:54)

Only pay for what you need@liberty mutual.com.

Malala Yousafzai (33:56)

Liberty Liberty. Liberty. Liberty Savings.

Anna Martin (33:59)

Very unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company affiliates.

Malala Yousafzai (34:01)

Excludes Massachusetts.

Anna Martin (34:18)

I want to get us into this zone of talking about romance and dating and love because it's a beautiful part of your book as well. You mentioned that you Just weren't around guys so much before you went to college, and then you were around them. But where was your confidence in terms of dating, boys, romance?

Malala Yousafzai (34:39)

I was more of a coach at the beginning when it came to love life conversations. I was giving advice to my friends. You know, like, if a guy is not replying to your texts for three.

Anna Martin (34:52)

Days, that's happening to me. But what do you think it means?

Malala Yousafzai (34:56)

He doesn't want to talk. Like, you know, and I don't think he deserves you. Like, it's.

Anna Martin (35:02)

Hear that.

Malala Yousafzai (35:03)

Yeah. You know, like, anyway. And my friends were just so shocked that I knew so much about guys and dating. And I told them, I have never dated a guy. I don't even know what that is. But I would sometimes just joke with them that I'm more of a coach than a player, and the coaches know more than the players.

Anna Martin (35:23)

You're observing. You had taken yourself off the field to continue that metaphor. And really, that actually is the language I'd use. You'd taken yourself sort of out of the game. Can you describe why? Why was dating not so much on your radar?

Malala Yousafzai (35:40)

There were two reasons for that. One was more my personal decision, and the second one was cultural. When I was attacked by the Taliban, the bullet caused injuries, including my hearing loss and also my facial symmetry. So I had become very insecure. I thought, like, my smile was never the same and, you know, like, the facial symmetry wasn't there anymore. I received so many surgeries to work on repairing the facial nerve. Even my last surgery was to do that. And I thought, like, oh, you know, like, to grapple with it, the best way is to just say, never date a guy. Or. And if I'm honest, I just thought, like, nobody would like me and all of that. But that's just a whole different thinking.

Anna Martin (36:32)

Yeah.

Malala Yousafzai (36:33)

And then on the other hand, it was also the cultural pressure, because in our culture in Pakistan, girls are not allowed to date. Sure, it's different in the cities, but in a lot of the villages in most of Pakistan, girls are even punished for it if they're found dating or texting a guy. And, you know, there's, like, crazy things like honor killings. And so I thought, okay, like, that's supposed to be a bad thing. And why put my family in trouble? Why make my mom and dad angry? Even though I knew we were now in a different country and slightly different culture? But that is sort of still there in the back of your mind. So in college, I thought, yeah, like, these two things, I should just stay away from boys.

Anna Martin (37:18)

I mean, you're mentioning the insecurity and you share a bit about that in the book. And there is one quote that really struck me. You were talking about sort of grappling with self image, and you said, my face and body were now meant for service, not romance. You don't need to be attractive to be an activist. I told myself I was struck by that. I mean, unpack that quote for me. What did that mean? You didn't have to be attractive to be an activist. So it wasn't on your mind.

Malala Yousafzai (37:50)

I thought that activism was now the mission of my life, and I did not have to think about looking pretty for that. On the other hand, I thought that to have love in your life, you needed to be looking all perfect and needed the facial symmetry. And so, yeah, I thought, okay, like, I can't have all of that, but at least I can do my activism.

Anna Martin (38:18)

Did you think you'd ever be in a relationship? Like, was that something.

Malala Yousafzai (38:21)

No.

Anna Martin (38:21)

No. Really?

Malala Yousafzai (38:22)

I never thought that. No.

Anna Martin (38:24)

And how. And how did that make you feel when you were to contemplate a life? And truly, I say with like, out any kind of valence, positive or negative, like, how did that make you feel to contemplate a life without a romantic relationship?

Malala Yousafzai (38:38)

My life changed completely when I was in love with a person. I could not fix my thinking. You know, before that, I was the strong advocate against marriages. I had told all of my college friends that do not get married. Or like, at least I'm not getting married. These boys are just a waste of time. I was so against the institution of marriage in itself. I was questioning it because growing up, I had seen how girls were forced into marriage or they were married off when they were still children. And that is still a reality for many girls. So I thought, why would even I consider it? I'm an advocate for girls rights. You know, this is the last thing I'll think about. And here I was in love with a guy, and I knew that culturally, for me to be with this guy, I need to be married to him. Because in our culture, like, I cannot just live with a guy. My parents will never allow that. It's hard to explain the cultural part because, you know, it becomes a controversy and there's a lot of backlash if you do not follow the traditions. And the tradition is that you have to, like, marry. And it's usually your parents agreeing and all of that. You cannot technically be dating or be in love. I was happy that my parents sort of were okay with me, like, seeing the guy. But My mom put so many restrictions. She told me, and this is before COVID that you have to be six feet apart.

Anna Martin (40:02)

So she kind of started that trend.

Malala Yousafzai (40:04)

It sounds like before we had those jumps.

Anna Martin (40:08)

Looking at a future.

Malala Yousafzai (40:10)

Yeah.

Anna Martin (40:10)

Without a romantic relationship, did it make you feel. I don't know.

Malala Yousafzai (40:18)

It made life easier for me.

Anna Martin (40:19)

Huh. That's okay.

Malala Yousafzai (40:20)

I thought life would be so easy if there were no relationships, no love life to think about and no marriage and all of that and kids and, like, family stuff. I said, ew, stay away from all of that work, work and work. And I will be honest that becoming an activist at a young age and not knowing so much about what the lives of activists from history have been really, like. So in my head, like, I thought, like Martin Luther King Jr. Or Mother Teresa or Dalai Lama and Nelson Mandela all had these lives which were all about work. Even though they had, like, wives and, like, you know, kids and all of that, there's this, like, perception that you have that life all has to be about work. It can never be about you, about your love. And these are all sacrifices and compromises you have to make. But when I fell in love.

Anna Martin (41:13)

Now let's bring this man on stage. Tell me about the guy you fell in love with.

Malala Yousafzai (41:20)

So I met Asar at university. He was visiting a friend who was studying there. And the moment I saw him, I knew that he was my type. He was tall, handsome, with trimmed beard and just wide shoulders. And I thought, oh, my God, like, I had pictured this guy in my imagination, and somehow I see him in reality. There is this 3D print of him.

Anna Martin (41:46)

You are making me jealous, girl.

Malala Yousafzai (41:48)

Yeah, with a cute smile. And he was just laughing the whole time. And he was funny, and he was cracking jokes and laughing at my chokes. And I was like, like, wow, he is the one.

Anna Martin (41:57)

Well, that's the dream, isn't it?

Malala Yousafzai (41:59)

Yeah. But if you ask him, like, the story that he has starts at, like, a different point. And I'm like, ugh, let's not even talk about it.

Anna Martin (42:07)

Let's just say you had wide shoulders.

Malala Yousafzai (42:08)

And you were taller. I was like, can you just simply say, yeah, like, I fell in love with you the moment I saw you? He's like, no, I have to be truthful.

Anna Martin (42:15)

No, not. Not all the time.

Malala Yousafzai (42:17)

But then he reminds me, he says, you have to remember that, like, you were Malala to me. And sometimes he says this joke that my right shoulder was telling me, that there's one person in the world that you don't want to offend or Break the heart of. It's Malala. And then my left shoulder was telling me that if you break Malala's heart, you are gonna be her enemy number one, and you do not want that life. So.

Anna Martin (42:45)

So basically, both. Both angels and devils were telling him, like, do not F this up. Basically.

Malala Yousafzai (42:50)

He was like, I was just so scared. He said. She said, like, do you think, like, somebody meets Malala and immediately would say, yeah, I want her to be my girlfriend, or, like, I want to marry her? He said, like, no. He's like, of course. Like, you were so fun. And, like, I was so happy that we were becoming friends, but I could not imagine it. And I was like, okay, fine, fine. You can get away with it. One story I remember, which is really funny. When we were still, like, getting to know each other, I took him to see this movie, which was Toy Story 4.

Anna Martin (43:23)

Okay. Yeah.

Malala Yousafzai (43:25)

And I was like, you know, a bit flirty and all of that. And I was like, why is this guy, like, so nervous and, like, sort of, like, tight and just like, why can't he just. Why can't he just relax? And I asked him, and he's like, you know, you have, like, security, and they're standing right behind me.

Anna Martin (43:44)

He's like, maybe those two massive guys.

Malala Yousafzai (43:47)

Do you want me to be, like, relaxed and all of that? So later on, I understood. I was like, oh, yeah, poor thing. I never thought about it from his perspective.

Anna Martin (43:56)

So you're like, loosen up.

Malala Yousafzai (43:57)

He's like, come on. You know, just watching a movie. Enjoy. Have fun. Be yourself.

Anna Martin (44:03)

I didn't even know they had toys for you. Four. Yeah. How did he make you feel? Like, as you hung out with him more and more, as you talked, as you got to know him as a person, not just a hottie. Like, how did. Yeah. How did he make you feel?

Malala Yousafzai (44:15)

Whenever I was with him, I felt that I was loved. And he made me feel like the present me. It's, you know, like, when you meet people, they have this fixed image of you, and they feel like they know who you are.

Anna Martin (44:32)

Well, I will say you more so than someone else, of course. Yeah, absolutely.

Malala Yousafzai (44:37)

But with him, I felt like I could grow as a person.

Anna Martin (44:40)

I like what you're saying. Like, as opposed to, like, a fixed idea of who you were. This vaunted, brave, you know, active. It was like things felt like they could change, like they could mold, like they could grow. Like they were flexible almost.

Malala Yousafzai (44:59)

Yes. And when I think about a life partner, this is the person you want with whom you can grow.

Anna Martin (45:04)

Right.

Malala Yousafzai (45:04)

You will never be the same person as you are in this moment. He will also not be the same person as he is in that moment. And when you start your life together, you can grow together. I immediately felt that with Asad, that he is so adventurous. He likes trying new things. He's funny. Life just looks more fun with him. And I was imagining a life with him, and I thought, wow, like, it just looks so good. So I was very happy, like, that I was, you know, technically dating him and that I was seeing him, but at the same time, I was reminding myself that, no, I'm supposed to be an activist and I can't get married. And it's hisology distraction. And right then.

Anna Martin (45:46)

And you were so staunchly opposed. You know, you're right. You were so opposed to marriage as an institution. Yes. Because of what it represented, you know, the patriarchy. You didn't want to be controlled. Yeah. How did you reckon with those things? What a bummer to really like this guy and be like, this could be serious. But also, I've. I'm staunchly opposed to marriage.

Malala Yousafzai (46:06)

I would be honest that I liked Assar and everything was going well. I was also scared if. If ASR would be the same person as he is now. And I had heard so many stories of girls who find out that the husband is not the guy who they thought would be.

Anna Martin (46:26)

You mean, after they get married?

Malala Yousafzai (46:27)

After they get married and things change, or then they have these expectations from each other, like, the husband is expecting the wife to do certain things or, like, do chores or change her career path and all of that. And I knew, like, this was never gonna happen. I knew that I knew about my rights, and, like, I'm an activist for girls everywhere. I can fight for myself. But it was. It just felt like I, you know, I could not. I just did not want it to be a situation where now suddenly I was, like, getting married, and this guy was like, you know, I was like, I have to fix another guy, and I have to fix another problem while I'm advocating for so many other things. I did not want it to be, like, another journey of activism for me. I was like, if marriage makes life easier and happier, then I should consider it in the end. We spent some time together in Lake Placid in the US and this was the first time when it was just the two of us and we had the best time together. And I had prepared a whole list of questions because I thought, I'll ask him everything and figure out who he truly is. And, you know, like, I Was like, I just want to know everything about this guy. What is inside his mind, like, what he's showing. What I see right now is all good. It's like 10 out of 10. But is there something mysterious in his mind that I need to know? You know, it's like, red flag. I know, Seriously, I should change my.

Anna Martin (47:49)

Job and work for.

Malala Yousafzai (47:53)

And I realized that he was this person the whole time that I saw him. It's like, you keep looking, you keep peeling it off, and it's like a layer after a layer. It's still the same thing.

Commercial Narrator (48:06)

Yeah.

Anna Martin (48:06)

Was there a moment where you realized that, like. Yeah. That he was who he said he was? Was there? I don't know. You look at him at breakfast and, like, the light's hitting him and you're like, that's it. You know, that's him. Like, was there a moment?

Malala Yousafzai (48:18)

Still feel that when he is kind to somebody, when he cares about his family members and friends, he shows up, he checks on people. He looks after me. He's just so nice to me. I can't tell you he can listen to me rambling at midn night when he's so tired and exhausted.

Anna Martin (48:40)

The app does turn on at midnight.

Malala Yousafzai (48:43)

And, yeah, that's the thing. And he, you know, can. He cares about, like, what I eat, and if I'm busy with my work, he makes sure that I have some fun time. So he would arrange sports in the middle of it to say, you need to relax. You need to take some time off. So, like, my life is sort of still the same, but I feel happier that he's with me now in this.

Anna Martin (49:11)

Moment in Lake Placid, which is fun that it was there. It's such a. Yeah, you realize that you're ready to marry. In fact, the chapter ends with you saying, like, I'm ready to do this. What was it about that trip that changed your mind? Was it your mind changed about him or your mind changed about the institution of marriage? Or both or neither? Like, what shifted?

Malala Yousafzai (49:36)

Oh, definitely not about the institution of marriage at all. That is easy to answer. We have to question marriage. We have to make this an open conversation, because it is still affecting the lives of tens of millions of girls every year. And even in places where. Where women have more equal rights, and even in developed countries, marriage still means more compromises for women. So I think that's a whole separate conversation, and I don't have all the answers. But I think it's important for us to doubt it, to question it. In Lake Placid. I was sure about getting married to ASR was because I knew he was the right guy. He. He seemed to be this kind, sweet, and the best guy I had ever seen. I had the best time with him, and I loved him for sure, but I started loving myself as well. And that's the difference he made in my life, that I felt that I should love myself and I should be okay accepting that he loves me too. And I realized I don't have to ask him every question about. So what do you think about, you know, four marriages in Islam? Or what do you think about a woman earning more than the man? And he was like, yeah, if he. If she earns more, that's fine. Like, he's like, I'll be a heavier man. I was like, ugh. You just get it right every time.

Anna Martin (51:08)

It is so interesting. It's like this list of. You tried to sort of itemize all of the things that could go wrong. Right. And it's very beautiful to me that at the end of this trip, you realized you just. You didn't have to do that.

Malala Yousafzai (51:25)

Yes. He was quite surprised. He was like, so where are the questions? Like, when are you gonna ask?

Anna Martin (51:30)

Ripped up the paper. Yeah.

Malala Yousafzai (51:31)

I was like, you know, I know.

Anna Martin (51:33)

Because you knew the answer was. Was what? It's not even. It's not even about the answers to those questions. The answer is he loves you, Right?

Malala Yousafzai (51:42)

Yeah.

Anna Martin (51:43)

And I love myself.

Malala Yousafzai (51:45)

Yes.

Anna Martin (51:47)

You know, we talked about how your feelings about marriage as an institution.

Malala Yousafzai (51:52)

Yeah.

Anna Martin (51:53)

Haven't changed. You're still committed to doing. To advocating for women's independence and right to choose, decide whether they want to get married. And I guess I wondered. Now you are a wife. Right. Like, has that changed? What does that mean to you? Like, how are you able to. Yeah. What does that mean to you?

Malala Yousafzai (52:12)

You know, those words still sound quite heavy. Wife and husband.

Anna Martin (52:16)

Do you use different words?

Malala Yousafzai (52:18)

Yeah, Bestie.

Anna Martin (52:19)

Use bestie. Oh, I love that. Yeah.

Malala Yousafzai (52:22)

It's. We don't call each other husband and wife. It's when people ask us or when people bring it up, that's when we're like, oh, so we are husband and wife.

Anna Martin (52:30)

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Does it feel so.

Malala Yousafzai (52:32)

That doesn't.

Anna Martin (52:33)

That word doesn't feel like it fits so much.

Malala Yousafzai (52:36)

I have a very stereotypical idea of what a wife means, and I hated the word. Genuinely hated the word. Growing up, I thought, like, ugh, you want to be a wife? Come on. And husband. I was like, you know, just because you grow up with it, you cannot suddenly take it away from yourself. And you know, I. I just thought that was not a cool thing to be a wife.

Anna Martin (53:02)

Do you feel married? I guess that's really the question I want to ask. Like, do you feel married? Yes. Yeah.

Malala Yousafzai (53:07)

It's about redefining what marriage is. I know that a lot of people will be already embracing it in this new way where it means equal partnership between two people where they respect each other and they love each other and they make lives easier for each other. They make lives more fun for each other. But where I come from and what I have experienced seeing things like child marriages and just how women's futures change completely with marriage, I cannot fully take it away from me that I still have that traditional idea of it and that just causes that trigger for me. And I sometimes think that am I giving up to the old systems? But I know it. It is different. It is different when you are in a new country. It's different when you are redefining it. It's different when the partner actually has good values and has a common understanding of respects you and respects you. And he's like, yeah, marriage, whatever. I just want to be with you. That's the most important thing for him. So that changes everything. I'm like, yeah, sure, let's call it marriage. Let's call it whatever we want to call it. It's about us sharing this journey of life ahead together.

Anna Martin (54:31)

I want to turn back to your book. You know, I'm struck that the title Finding My Way is. It's an active title. It's not I Found My Way. No, it's finding. Right. You're in the process of. I wonder, like, what do you feel like you're still figuring out about yourself?

Malala Yousafzai (54:51)

Actually wanted a title like Finding My Way because I do not feel comfortable with books that feel like they have cracked the code and figured it all out. That if you read this book, you have no worries in life anymore. That's just not the reality. Finding My Way is a true reflection of what the journey is actually like, where things are happening for the first time. You may not have even planned them to be a part of your life. You are having these experiences in college, like Bong.

Anna Martin (55:27)

Like bong.

Malala Yousafzai (55:28)

Or you are climbing rooftops like, that was never part of my plan. Getting ghosted by my crush, that was never part of my plan. Nearly failing my exams, that wasn't part of my plan. These things happen. You meet the love of your life at a time when you are lucky. Wait a second. I'm sort of still in university. I wish this, like, I Wish I was not thinking about marriage and all of these things right now. Or like you're recovering from the bullet of the Taliban and having your last surgery and the Taliban take control of Afghanistan and you have to think about evacuating the people who you are supporting and at the same time thinking about the future of women and girls. And what does that mean for you? Like all of these things is about finding your way. You do not have the answer immediately, but it is embracing those moments and accepting the emotions and the feelings you're going through. You cannot make them disappear. Asking for help when you need to, talking to your friends and family, your colleagues, and knowing that together you will be able to make a way through it. You will find your way through it.

Anna Martin (56:34)

You're 28 right now.

Malala Yousafzai (56:35)

Yes.

Anna Martin (56:37)

What would you say to 15 year old Malala?

Malala Yousafzai (56:43)

Oh, I might give her my book. Girl, read this book. There is so much ahead of you. There's so much ahead of you. Do not get distracted by what people around you are telling you, who you are supposed to be, what media outlet wants to speak to you and how you need to go and give a speech at this conference and that event. Follow your heart, make friends. Be cheeky. Sometimes it's okay if you don't know all the answers. It's okay if you get scared. That's all fine. You will find your way through it.

Anna Martin (57:28)

Malala, thank you so much. What a pleasure to have this conversation.

Malala Yousafzai (57:32)

Thank you. So nice speaking to you as well.

Anna Martin (57:49)

The Modern Love team is Amy Pearl, Christina Josa Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Reeva Goldberg and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Sarah Curtis. It was edited by Lynn Levy and Jen Poyant. Original music in this episode by Alicia Vitup, Rowan Nimisto and Dan Powell. Dan also composed art theme music. This episode was mixed by Daniel Ramirez. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones. Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we've always got the instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.

Vanguard Announcer (59:02)

What are you doing in a meeting? That could have been an email. That's right, you're losing interest. Don't let it happen to your money too. Vanguard's Cash plus account can't help you at work, but we can help with your savings because Vanguard believes in giving you more. So how much interest could you earn? Find out@vanguard.com cashplus offered by Vanguard Marketing Corporation member, FINRA and SIPC.