Modern Love Podcast Summary: "Miranda July Knew Exactly What She Was Doing"

Episode Release Date: April 30, 2025
Host: Anna Martin
Guest: Miranda July
Podcast: Modern Love by The New York Times

Introduction

In this compelling episode of Modern Love, host Anna Martin engages in an in-depth conversation with acclaimed writer and filmmaker Miranda July. The discussion centers around July's novel, "All Fours," exploring its profound impact on contemporary conversations about women's lives, particularly during midlife transitions.

"All Fours": A Glimpse into Midlife Transformation

July's novel, "All Fours," follows a woman in her mid-40s who embarks on a solo road trip only to stop abruptly near home, where she rents a motel room for three weeks without informing her husband or child. This unconventional decision serves as a catalyst for her to reconnect with her dormant desires and personal identity, diverging from the traditional roles of motherhood and marriage.

Key Themes:

• Self-Rediscovery: The protagonist's journey represents a quest to understand her true self beyond societal expectations.
• Cultural Reflection: The novel has become a touchstone for discussions around perimenopause and the societal pressures faced by middle-aged women.

Notable Quote:
Miranda July reflecting on cultural reception:
[03:07] "A novel about a woman in the middle of her life, challenging typical structures in relationships and pushing against patterns many might just accept as a given. It clearly struck a nerve."

The Birth of a Movement: From Page to Real Life

"All Fours" transcended its literary origins, sparking widespread dialogue and community-building among readers. July initiated a Substack to sustain these conversations, leading to the formation of discussion groups known as "All Fours" group chats. The book's influence extended to merchandise and was even optioned as a miniseries, highlighting its cultural resonance.

Notable Quote:
July on the unexpected reception of her work:
[04:10] "And it was really intense when the book was coming out, like, it was this, like, bet I'd placed on like, women as a whole to not distance themselves from this, but in fact say, like, I see myself in this, you know, and it was going to be very bad if I was going to be the only one."

Micro Rebellions: Subtle Acts of Defiance

A significant portion of the conversation delves into the concept of "micro rebellions," small, everyday acts that women undertake to assert their individuality against entrenched societal norms. July and her friend Isabel practiced these subtle resistances to maintain their authenticity in roles that often demand conformity.

Example of Micro Rebellion:
Taking a simple action like getting a glass of water during a meeting without seeking permission, challenging the expectation to always prioritize others over oneself.

Notable Quote:
July explains the essence of micro rebellions:
[11:35] "The best way to put it would be that, like, the way we're doing things is actually doing things that no one's asking, no one's saying, like, don't drink water. Get through the meeting without getting a glass of water."

Balancing Personal Freedom with Relationships

The discussion also touches on July's personal life, particularly her decision to dedicate Wednesday nights to her artistic practice. This choice was both an assertion of personal needs and a redefinition of her roles within her family. The support she received from her husband and child underscores the feasibility of integrating personal desires with familial responsibilities.

Notable Quote:
July on negotiating personal space:
[14:19] "When I said to my husband that I needed to spend every Wednesday night alone in my studio, I said, I'm not sure I can write this novel if I don't do that."

Cultural Impact and Reader Reactions

"All Fours" elicited a wide range of responses, from passionate endorsements to vehement criticisms. July addresses the gendered nature of these reactions, highlighting how women authors often face harsher judgments compared to their male counterparts. The book's candid exploration of female sexuality and personal autonomy challenged readers, leading to both empowerment and backlash.

Notable Quote:
July on the gendered reception of her work:
[16:34] "And it wasn't by accident, you know, And I just want to say that not like, hats off to me, whatever, but just to say, like, that would never happen, sorry to say, never happen with a man, because we liked the idea that a man has planned and worked hard, and it worked according to that plan."

Navigating Criticism and Personal Accountability

Facing critical Amazon reviews that labeled the protagonist as selfish, July reflects on the broader societal discomfort with women prioritizing their own needs. She acknowledges the internal conflict between pursuing personal authenticity and perceived selfishness, emphasizing the importance of honest self-expression despite external judgments.

Notable Quote:
July on handling criticism:
[30:19] "A woman masturbating, A woman writing about a woman masturbating. You know, it's like double masturbation... The main reason all these women who are relating to the book, many of whom are writers themselves, the reason you don't write a book like this is because you're protecting one man and you don't wanna hurt his feel..."

The Political Dimension of Personal Stories

While "All Fours" is a work of fiction, July intentionally infused it with political undertones aimed at reshaping societal perceptions of older women. Her efforts to foster conversations around female autonomy and sexuality extend beyond the narrative, positioning her work as a catalyst for cultural change.

Notable Quote:
July on the political motives behind her writing:
[19:35] "What else are you going to do? Like, I mean, like my first notes about the book actually have to do with Trump? You know, and then you're like, what is really the best use of my specific powers to help this goal..."

Personal Freedom and Authentic Living

In concluding their conversation, July shares her personal sense of freedom, which she associates with authentic relationships and living true to oneself. This authenticity is mirrored both in her personal life and her creative endeavors, serving as a model for others seeking to align their lives with their genuine selves.

Notable Quote:
July on feeling truly free:
[36:02] "With my girlfriend... I'm laughing and I'm just totally relaxed... I'm learning how to be that way alone, you know, I love that."

Final Thoughts

The episode wraps up with a light-hearted exchange about favorite music, highlighting July's connection to her work and personal life. As the conversation draws to a close, Anna Martin expresses gratitude for July's openness and the enriching discussion on love, autonomy, and cultural transformation.

Conclusion:
This episode of Modern Love offers listeners a profound exploration of Miranda July's "All Fours" and its ripple effects in cultural and personal spheres. Through thoughtful dialogue, the podcast illuminates the intersections of literature, gender, and societal expectations, encouraging a deeper understanding of love and self-discovery in the modern age.