Miranda July Knew Exactly What She Was Doing

Summary

Modern Love Podcast Summary: "Miranda July Knew Exactly What She Was Doing"

Episode Release Date: April 30, 2025
Host: Anna Martin
Guest: Miranda July
Podcast: Modern Love by The New York Times

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of Modern Love, host Anna Martin engages in an in-depth conversation with acclaimed writer and filmmaker Miranda July. The discussion centers around July's novel, "All Fours," exploring its profound impact on contemporary conversations about women's lives, particularly during midlife transitions.

"All Fours": A Glimpse into Midlife Transformation

July's novel, "All Fours," follows a woman in her mid-40s who embarks on a solo road trip only to stop abruptly near home, where she rents a motel room for three weeks without informing her husband or child. This unconventional decision serves as a catalyst for her to reconnect with her dormant desires and personal identity, diverging from the traditional roles of motherhood and marriage.

Key Themes:

• Self-Rediscovery: The protagonist's journey represents a quest to understand her true self beyond societal expectations.
• Cultural Reflection: The novel has become a touchstone for discussions around perimenopause and the societal pressures faced by middle-aged women.

Notable Quote:
Miranda July reflecting on cultural reception:
[03:07] "A novel about a woman in the middle of her life, challenging typical structures in relationships and pushing against patterns many might just accept as a given. It clearly struck a nerve."

The Birth of a Movement: From Page to Real Life

"All Fours" transcended its literary origins, sparking widespread dialogue and community-building among readers. July initiated a Substack to sustain these conversations, leading to the formation of discussion groups known as "All Fours" group chats. The book's influence extended to merchandise and was even optioned as a miniseries, highlighting its cultural resonance.

Notable Quote:
July on the unexpected reception of her work:
[04:10] "And it was really intense when the book was coming out, like, it was this, like, bet I'd placed on like, women as a whole to not distance themselves from this, but in fact say, like, I see myself in this, you know, and it was going to be very bad if I was going to be the only one."

Micro Rebellions: Subtle Acts of Defiance

A significant portion of the conversation delves into the concept of "micro rebellions," small, everyday acts that women undertake to assert their individuality against entrenched societal norms. July and her friend Isabel practiced these subtle resistances to maintain their authenticity in roles that often demand conformity.

Example of Micro Rebellion:
Taking a simple action like getting a glass of water during a meeting without seeking permission, challenging the expectation to always prioritize others over oneself.

Notable Quote:
July explains the essence of micro rebellions:
[11:35] "The best way to put it would be that, like, the way we're doing things is actually doing things that no one's asking, no one's saying, like, don't drink water. Get through the meeting without getting a glass of water."

Balancing Personal Freedom with Relationships

The discussion also touches on July's personal life, particularly her decision to dedicate Wednesday nights to her artistic practice. This choice was both an assertion of personal needs and a redefinition of her roles within her family. The support she received from her husband and child underscores the feasibility of integrating personal desires with familial responsibilities.

Notable Quote:
July on negotiating personal space:
[14:19] "When I said to my husband that I needed to spend every Wednesday night alone in my studio, I said, I'm not sure I can write this novel if I don't do that."

Cultural Impact and Reader Reactions

"All Fours" elicited a wide range of responses, from passionate endorsements to vehement criticisms. July addresses the gendered nature of these reactions, highlighting how women authors often face harsher judgments compared to their male counterparts. The book's candid exploration of female sexuality and personal autonomy challenged readers, leading to both empowerment and backlash.

Notable Quote:
July on the gendered reception of her work:
[16:34] "And it wasn't by accident, you know, And I just want to say that not like, hats off to me, whatever, but just to say, like, that would never happen, sorry to say, never happen with a man, because we liked the idea that a man has planned and worked hard, and it worked according to that plan."

Navigating Criticism and Personal Accountability

Facing critical Amazon reviews that labeled the protagonist as selfish, July reflects on the broader societal discomfort with women prioritizing their own needs. She acknowledges the internal conflict between pursuing personal authenticity and perceived selfishness, emphasizing the importance of honest self-expression despite external judgments.

Notable Quote:
July on handling criticism:
[30:19] "A woman masturbating, A woman writing about a woman masturbating. You know, it's like double masturbation... The main reason all these women who are relating to the book, many of whom are writers themselves, the reason you don't write a book like this is because you're protecting one man and you don't wanna hurt his feel..."

The Political Dimension of Personal Stories

While "All Fours" is a work of fiction, July intentionally infused it with political undertones aimed at reshaping societal perceptions of older women. Her efforts to foster conversations around female autonomy and sexuality extend beyond the narrative, positioning her work as a catalyst for cultural change.

Notable Quote:
July on the political motives behind her writing:
[19:35] "What else are you going to do? Like, I mean, like my first notes about the book actually have to do with Trump? You know, and then you're like, what is really the best use of my specific powers to help this goal..."

Personal Freedom and Authentic Living

In concluding their conversation, July shares her personal sense of freedom, which she associates with authentic relationships and living true to oneself. This authenticity is mirrored both in her personal life and her creative endeavors, serving as a model for others seeking to align their lives with their genuine selves.

Notable Quote:
July on feeling truly free:
[36:02] "With my girlfriend... I'm laughing and I'm just totally relaxed... I'm learning how to be that way alone, you know, I love that."

Final Thoughts

The episode wraps up with a light-hearted exchange about favorite music, highlighting July's connection to her work and personal life. As the conversation draws to a close, Anna Martin expresses gratitude for July's openness and the enriching discussion on love, autonomy, and cultural transformation.

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Conclusion:
This episode of Modern Love offers listeners a profound exploration of Miranda July's "All Fours" and its ripple effects in cultural and personal spheres. Through thoughtful dialogue, the podcast illuminates the intersections of literature, gender, and societal expectations, encouraging a deeper understanding of love and self-discovery in the modern age.

Transcript

[Narrator]

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[Anna Martin]

Hey everyone, it's Anna. Before we start, the Modern Love team wants to hear from you. For our Father's Day episode, we're looking for stories about a moment your dad opened up to you emotionally. Where were you? What did he say, and how did you react? And if you're a dad, we're curious how you're trying to show emotion and vulnerability to your kids. What do you do? Does it feel easy? Hard? And how did your dad shape your approach to being a father? Record your stories as a voice memo and email them to modernlovepodcastytimes.com and we may use them on the show. Check out our show notes for tips on how to submit. Once again, we're looking for stories about a moment your dad opened up to you, or, if you're a father, how you're trying to show emotion and vulnerability to your kids. Send us a Voice memo to modernlovepodcastytimes.com we can't wait to hear from you. All right, let's start the show. Love now and did you fall in.

[Miranda July]

Love last Fell I love love, but.

[Narrator]

Stronger than anything for the love love.

[Miranda July]

Can I love you more than anything.

[Anna Martin]

You'Re still loved Love. From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love. Each week we talk about love, sex, friends, family, all the complexity of human relationships. It's been almost a year since the release of Miranda July's hit novel, All Fours. The book features a woman in her mid-40s who takes off on a solo road trip across the country. But she doesn't get far. Instead, she makes what most people would think is a very strange decision. She stops 30 minutes from her home and rents a motel room for three weeks. She doesn't tell her husband, doesn't tell her kid. The point of her staying at this roadside motel becomes clear. She needs time and space to check in with her desires and the parts of herself that have been dormant while she's been busy as a mom, a wife and a working artist. The narrator wonders, what does she actually want her life to look like as a middle aged woman? Is it okay to question the life she has? Maybe even try something different? July's novel has become a touchstone for how our culture thinks and talks about women in perimenopause. And that was intentional.

[Miranda July]

Like, what does perimenopause mean? Is it really just the ending of something, the absence of something? Or is there some power to it?

[Anna Martin]

A novel about a woman in the middle of her life, challenging typical structures in relationships and pushing against patterns many might just accept as a given. It clearly struck a nerve.

[Miranda July]

People were writing me. I mean, every day, dozens of DMs that were like, just bursting with their own story. Women who didn't necessarily have a whole group of friends they could talk about this with, but wanted that.

[Anna Martin]

July started a substack to keep the conversation going. Readers all over the world joined discussion groups called All Fours, Group chats. There were hats made, there were meetups. It was shortlisted for the National Book Award and recently All Fours was optioned as a miniseries. Though this book is fiction, it was born out of July asking her own big questions about what she wanted out of midlife and then making her own big changes.

[Miranda July]

And it was really intense when the book was coming out, like, it was this, like, bet I'd placed on like, women as a whole to not distance themselves from this, but in fact say, like, I see myself in this, you know, and it was going to be very bad if I was going to be the only one.

[Anna Martin]

It's now very clear. July is not the only one. This book is sexy, it's weird, it's funny, it's gut wrenching and it seems particularly charged in this cultural moment.

[Miranda July]

I think one has to remember that in general, the movement has been towards silencing women for forever.

[Anna Martin]

Today I talk with Miranda July about the power of all fours and how it's expanded beyond the page to a kind of movement. One that's inspiring and maybe a little threatening. Stay with us.

[Narrator]

Work management platforms. Ugh, red tape, endless adoption time. IT bottlenecks. And after all that, nobody really uses them. But what if you didn't hate your work platform? What if you actually loved it? Monday.com work management platform is different. You can make any changes you want and adapt it to your needs in an instant. No IT middlemen, no admin overlords. Less roadblocks, more highways, Add to that, the beautiful dashboards that give you a real time, broad view of all your work. And what do you get? Easy peasy adoption. Because people actually want to use it. Monday.com, the first work platform you'll love to use.

[Anna Martin]

This podcast is supported by dsw.

[Unknown]

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[Anna Martin]

Miranda July, welcome to Modern Love.

[Miranda July]

So glad to be here.

[Anna Martin]

Marita. One thing I know about you is you are extremely fashionable. So good thing I wore my best denim shirt.

[Miranda July]

I like it.

[Anna Martin]

Thank you. It's from an ex. It's from an ex boyfriend who I really don't think about unless I wear this shirt.

[Miranda July]

You know what? I am also wearing a shirt from an ex boyfriend.

[Anna Martin]

Are you freaking kidding me? Let me see that. Yeah, Pink Floyd.

[Miranda July]

Yeah, it was like his. It's like a child's shirt.

[Anna Martin]

This is a child's shirt, too.

[Miranda July]

Yeah. I'm always like, as I still am friends with him and as I see him have different girlfriends over time, over many years, I'm like, I feel like I should give it back so they can have a chance at the shirt.

[Anna Martin]

You know, what the heck? I've never felt that emblem.

[Miranda July]

Oh, really? But this is like a collector's item. I'm not dissing your shirt.

[Anna Martin]

Not like your ugly shirt, Anna. No, it's not. No, it's not. No, it's not. I think you should keep it.

[Miranda July]

I mean, I am. There's definitely not returning it, but the thought will cross my head, like, beautiful.

[Anna Martin]

Impulse I think you should squash. So fun. Okay, we've compared outfits, we've compared exes, as it were. Let's talk about all fours. Was there a question or a series of questions that you were asking yourself that spurred the writing of this novel?

[Miranda July]

Yeah, I mean, now actually, we've made so much progress in such a short time that it's actually, like, hard to believe how risky it seemed, but it actually seemed risky just to use the word perimenopause or menopause. And then. And yeah, questions I was asking, I guess, like, why doesn't this exist in the culture, given that this isn't like a minority niche topic so that was one question. But that's just like, well, you know, we hate women, you know, so. And we really hate older women. And we don't want them coming into power as they become less busy with their kids or whatever. You know, traditionally was the way women's lives went. So that seemed clear and was just like a chip on my shoulder. But the unclear thing was the life that is expected of me as a married mom seems worse than it should be. But that seems complain y. And if there's anything I know from being a woman, it's like to put my complaints behind all the much more important and rigorous complaints of the world, the serious things. And, you know, they weren't really complaints, they were desires.

[Anna Martin]

What were they?

[Miranda July]

I mean, me and my friend Isabel, who the book is dedicated to, we would meet once a week and eat and talk about the idea that we were always changing. That was just a biological truth, that we were actually pretty different at different times of the month and that we were kind of putting on an act of sameness and in a way, kind of boringness to basically make men feel safe and to make sure that we were trusted. As if change is somehow the same as being deceitful or untrustworthy, you know, as if the only way you can prove that you're like an upstanding person is by being. Being like a rigid, solid, unchanging monument, which is a man. Right? That's what men are told to be. Who also, by the way, change. So, you know, often we were trying to do this sort of micro rebellion which began inside ourselves, like asking of ourselves each day to stay with where we really were, to not be swayed by all the different currents of everyone else's needs and expectations. We were particip in something that really worked against our basic nature and we should stop doing that. And how could we do that without taking down our lives and the people we loved so dearly around us? And then why did we think it would be in opposition to them? Why did we even have that thought? Wouldn't they thrive if we were being honest with ourselves? These were the things we were kind of obsessed with.

[Anna Martin]

There's so much to get into there. But I'm intrigued by your use of the word micro rebellions. You're describing this sort of. This like flattening, this stuffing down of the dynamism of oneself to fit the mold of expectations, to not be threatening to men. And then these microbellions you and Isabelle were sort of putting into practice in your daily life. Can you give me an example of what that meant.

[Miranda July]

I mean, honestly, it could be as simple as you're in a meeting and you're thirsty and there's some part of you that just absolutely does not even for a second think, I'm gonna hit pause on this meeting for a sec and go get a glass of water and bring it back. But you know what I mean? Like a sort of almost automatic overriding of your every impulse. And then the weird thing is, you know, and then we would report back. We'd be like, you know what? I drank water, or whatever. The thing was, I got up and went to the bathroom. I mean, this really. Hopefully everyone is in this groove with me and gets that. We're not pathetic people. We're actually, like, powerful people. But, like, so we began with, rather than, like, what's wrong with our husbands or whatever, like, what are the ways that we are actually doing things that no one's asking, no one's saying, like, don't drink water. Get through the meeting without getting a glass of water. So, like, what are the ways we're doing it to ourselves and then building from there?

[Anna Martin]

You've spoken about. Maybe this is more macro rebellion. And you might chafe at it being called rebellion. But, you know, it's been widely reported on. You've spoken about taking your Wednesday nights for your own artistic practice. Right. And that feels like a real kind of puncture in the role.

[Miranda July]

At first, those Wednesday nights felt like such an indulgence. And everything I did, you know, hanging out with Isabel, being leisurely, like, seemed like this small part of myself that I was indulging in. And I guess what happened was at some point, I thought the thought, what if that's more me than my real life? You know? And it seemed like trash. It was like, what if I'm saying the real me is just that shitty? You know? That's how it felt initially. Like, I truly believed. When I said to my husband that I needed to spend every Wednesday night alone in my studio, I said, I'm not sure I can write this novel if I don't do that.

[Anna Martin]

All fours.

[Miranda July]

All fours, yeah. Because this was the first thing I really made while having a child. And I thought, like, gosh, to have to, you know, wake up and make breakfast and then lunch and then drive the kid to school and drive. Like, where will my head be if I had just one morning a week where I woke up and could start writing? And that made sense to him. He's a writer, too. He was facing similar issues. But, like, would any of us given me that permission if it hadn't been like, for my job, for work. But it wasn't a big deal, by the way. He was like, sure. And my kid was like, fun. Do we get pizza on those nights? But it did sort of beg the question, well, what else are we doing? Just because that's what you do. The agreement is you sleep in the same house, probably the same bed every night, forever. Unless there's like a work trip or a real reason.

[Anna Martin]

You're articulating this opening up of possibility that perhaps was always there, but that you had to articulate your need for. It's like you were saying when you brought up spending these Wednesday nights alone in your studio, working to your husband, to your child. They were like, yeah, go for it. But it felt so immense to even ask for, because it was rupturing the expectation of what it means to be a. To be a wife, to be a partner, to be a mother. And it's. It's fun, as a person who read All Fours, to think of that novel as being sort of born of those Wednesday nights, that freedom. And we're talking about these micro rebellions that inspire the book, that are certainly a part of the book. I would say the. The main character of All Fours practices her own micro and macro rebellions. Readers have reacted incredibly to this book. They've also sort of put in place these micro rebellions in their own life. I want to talk about the reaction to All Fours. Were you surprised by the immensity of it?

[Miranda July]

I wonder how I can say this and have it come off right. That was what the book was for. That was the intended goal of the book.

[Anna Martin]

To start conversations.

[Miranda July]

Yes. Sometimes in interviews, you know, since the book's come out, I've actually seen people write things like, you know, or introduce me saying, like, you know, she couldn't be more surprised that her little story has amazingly taken the world by storm. And it's like, is that the only space I have as a woman that, like, I can't have masterminded something? You know, I couldn't have a political motive, you know, I just have to be, like, shocked and grateful at my good fortune. I'm the one who did it. Like, I like. And it wasn't by accident, you know, And I just want to say that not. Not, like, hats off to me, whatever, but just to say, like, that would never happen, sorry to say, never happen with a man, because we liked the idea that a man has planned and worked hard, and it worked according to that plan. But we don't like to think of women as being that far thinking and that far reaching and imagining something of scope.

[Anna Martin]

Yep.

[Miranda July]

It has to just be my story. Like I just wrote my story. It was really just my diary.

[Anna Martin]

We'll be right back.

[Narrator]

Work management platforms. Ugh, red tape, endless adoption time, IT bottlenecks. And after all that, nobody really uses them. But what if you didn't hate your work platform? What if you actually loved it? Monday.com work management platform is different. You can make any changes you want and adapt it to your needs in an instant. No IT middlemen, no admin overlords, less roadblocks, more highways. Add to that the beautiful dashboards that give you a real time, broad view of all your work and what do you get? Easy peasy adoption. Because people actually want to use it. Monday.com, the first work platform you'll love to use.

[Anna Martin]

This podcast is supported by dsw.

[Unknown]

This season, let your shoes do the talking. Designer Shoe Warehouse is packed with fresh styles that speak to your whole vibe without saying a word. From cool sneakers that look good with everything to easy sandals you'll want to wear on repeat, DSW has you covered. Find a shoe for every hue from the brands you love like Birkenstock, Nike, Adidas, New Balance and more. Head to your DSW store or visit dsw.com today.

[Anna Martin]

Miranda, you just talked about having, in part political motives for writing All Fours. Can you talk more about that?

[Miranda July]

Oh yeah. I mean, I was angry when I wrote this book. Like, I know it's funny, but what else are you going to do? Like, I mean, like my first notes about the book actually have to do with Trump? You know, and then you're like, what is really the best use of my specific powers to help this goal? I'm not saying my entire goal was political, but I did have days where I was like, well, one thing I could do is change our conception of older women and their sexuality and just their lived lives and what goes on in their heads. And that actually might be important.

[Anna Martin]

Hmm. I mean, to not only have that intention to write this book with a main character who's a middle aged woman who is discovering her power sexually and emotionally, rearranging her life, pursuing her desires, pursuing her, her wants, her needs. Like not only to flesh that out through the novel, but then to have the intentionality to start real life conversations with women about perhaps putting this into practice in their real lives. I mean, that is, that does feel political to me. That feels political on the level of the work and on the level of the reception of the work.

[Miranda July]

Right. Even though I had those ambitions that we talked about, I didn't actually know how it was gonna play out. Like, the All Fours group chat thing, that was something that came out of the response. It was like. And then the press sort of picked up that phrase. And then Riverhead made a few hats that said all Fours group chat. And I was like, oh, that's funny. And then people wanted to buy the hats, and I was like, we can't sell this. And there was actually like, a serious meeting at Riverhead. Like, okay, well, to produce the hats and Riverheads.

[Anna Martin]

The book. The book publisher.

[Miranda July]

That's my publisher. Yeah. My wonderful publisher. Just picture all women my age, like just a coven. And it was like, well, if you think we should do the hats, like, it would take this long to do them. And, you know. And I was like, wait, wait, wait. No, this was their response, these chats. Like, we can't sell that back. This is, like, just something to support.

[Anna Martin]

I mean, you're articulating something that I think is important to point out, which is like, the experience of reading a book, at least to me, is a very individual one. Right. It's like, you, the page. It's a solo activity. But there's something very particular about All Fours that makes people wanna wear the hat. Broadcast to the world that they've read it. Like, find other people who've also read this novel and, like, bring them towards themselves and start a conversation. What do you think it is about the book that makes people wanna do that? Like, what private thing is it allowing readers to make public?

[Miranda July]

I guess it's the feeling when there's something you thought was just you and then not only are you reading it in a book, but that's not an obscure book. Apparently. You know, this has been validated, this personal. Not just personal, but, like, problematic thing in you. And it could be one of many things. I mean, actually, what I love is, you know, people pull out really kind of obscure details and say, this was the thing, maybe the book. Like, if I did it right. You kind of sense that it's not just this narrator. She has friends who also are willing to talk about it. So maybe you kind of want those friends. You feel like, I'm not meant to just ponder this alone. That's not the act that's called for here.

[Anna Martin]

Find your own Isabel. Basically, Isabella as metonym, as metaphor, even though she's also a real person.

[Miranda July]

Yeah. The best friend in the book is called Geordie. And I Get so many messages that refer to my Geordie, you know, or I need as many Geordi's as possible in my life right now. And then other people talking about their.

[Anna Martin]

Davies and Davey's, the love interest in the book for those who haven't read. But I want to read those DMs. I mean, I know that's just to you, but that feels fun. You're talking about this influx of. Of messages from readers. I can only imagine. Does that ever get overwhelming to be the place that people are sending these stories? I imagine some of them are sexy, you know, the here's my Davey young lover type story. But I imagine some of them are also quite heavy. Does that ever get to feel like a lot?

[Miranda July]

Yeah, but the truth is, I've made many things over the last few decades. And I mean, so my first kind of breakout thing was a movie. And that was such a huge shift in my whole life, and it felt much more like the focus was on me.

[Anna Martin]

This is for you, me and everyone we know.

[Miranda July]

Yeah, that was a movie I, like, starred in, wrote, directed. But part of it was just like, the way we are about young women, you know, like, there she is, you know, at the gas station. I don't know. Like, there's a way in which, like, you just are there to be eaten or something. And this feels so different. It really feels like I threw a party and it went so well that, you know, when other people are, like, getting a glass down from your cupboard and helping them, or maybe it's gone so far that someone's actually like, do you mind if I cook this thing?

[Anna Martin]

I love that metaphor.

[Miranda July]

Yeah, it feels like that. So it doesn't feel like all the focus is on me, you know, it really feels like people are there for themselves because they needed this night, you know, and they're talking not just to me, but to each other. You know, that really, it's not just a metaphor. Like, I realized I had to come up with, since I only knew about hierarchical power and winning, I started to have the, like, gross feelings that I associate with that, like, where you feel basically like a balloon filled with nothing about to pop. And I was like, hold on. Am I just thinking that that's what I'm feeling because that's what I've always felt, or is that really what I feel? And I was like, wait, this is so different. Like, I'm not alone and I'm. If anything, I'm safer and more taken care of and, like, such a different feeling. So that was a Good shift.

[Anna Martin]

That's remarkable. The image that's coming to mind is. I'm just continuing your party metaphor because I love it. But it's like when you throw a great party and at some point you, like, look up and you're in your own home, but it looks totally different. People are having conversations over here, sitting in ways you never thought possible on your sofa. You know what I mean? Like, and you just look around.

[Miranda July]

Someone's crying.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah, totally. There always is. And for me, it's one friend I'm thinking of who was always crying. But I really like that you look around and you're like, wow, yeah, this is about me, but it's also not about me. I wanna ask, though, like, you're saying this felt different in the sense that it wasn't so much about you. The sort of reaction or reception to the book wasn't so much about you. And I wanna poke on that a little just because I feel like this is a work of fiction. You've been really clear about it. But there are resonances between your own personal life and the narrator's. Like, you have sort of represented a way of not abiding by certain norms or expectations. All these micro rebellions that you also, you know, you broadcast on Instagram, let's say, like, you're. You're public about these ways that you're sort of breaking the mold. So I guess the question is, like, do you feel like you've become a sort of representation to some people about the political possibilities of, like, defying norms or defying expectations? Is that a feeling that you have?

[Miranda July]

Yeah, I guess my lived experience is that I'm just more comfortable because I made a whole lot of room to be myself. Not just publicly in terms of my work, but also the relationship that I'm in. No one thinks I'm any way other than I am my child. And, you know, so it's. I guess that's the pervasive feeling now.

[Anna Martin]

What you're saying about living authentically in the way that you are with the relationship you have. You know, the way that you're parenting, the way you're even spending your time. Like, there's something that I do feel could be perceived as threatening. So I just. I wonder if you got any responses, perhaps, to that effect.

[Miranda July]

I mean, one thing I noticed this was, I think when the book was a finalist for the National Book Award, I. Congratulations. There's a reason I mentioned that. It's that I was looking at the other books and just the quickest way to look at what they were. I mean, some of them I knew, some of them I didn't. But I was going through Amazon, right, and looking in through them and I realized at a certain point that I had the lowest number of stars you could get. Of all the finalists, how many stars did you have? I mean, it's plenty, but there are so many one star Amazon reviews. And the longer it keeps existing, that is like the wider the audience, the further out of my niche, the more there are one star reviews. And they're really angry, they really hate the book. And it starts to feel like it mirrors kind of the other schisms we see in the world right now. But it's a little more heartbreaking. Cause it's all women, you know, their anger is really like palpable. It's like, this is despicable, this is narcissistic, this is. I've never hated a narrator more, you know, like, and these are familiar things through my life. I mean, this was sort of from whence I came, frankly. Like, that is kind of any woman with a voice like doing anything at all different, that's kind of the standard response. But I just keep my eye on it for a couple reasons. One, to remind myself, like, as the book gets bigger and like there's the limited series of the book and stuff to remember. Like, for a lot of people this is upsetting.

[Anna Martin]

What do you think is upsetting about this book to those people?

[Miranda July]

A woman masturbating, A woman writing about a woman masturbating. You know, it's like double masturbation, you know, and the non binary child gets a lot of hate. People really write advocating for the husband. The husband seems so nice. Why doesn't she stay, you know, like, as if I didn't write the husband, as if I'm not also the husband, you know, like, I guess I just want to keep my eye on it. One just on a sort of slightly paranoid personal safety level to not like gallivant out in the world thinking like, everyone loves me, when actually some people are like, specifically don't. And I'm kind of maybe a symbol of a whole lot of things that are wrong right now. And even within my own life, of course. Like the main reason all these women who are relating to the book, many of whom are writers themselves, the reason you don't write a book like this is because you're protecting one man and you don't wanna hurt his feel, even if you do everything to protect him. You know, that your version of, you know, a woman's story won't be his version. And, like, at a certain point, you have to do what you think is for the greater good.

[Anna Martin]

Can I ask specifically just to make sure I'm not, like, protecting your husband at the time? Is that what you're saying? Like, yeah.

[Miranda July]

I feel like I knew it would be really uncomfortable for him, and I felt horrible about that. I spent so many therapy sessions talking this through. I mean, just the amount of times I felt sort of stopped in my tracks. And then I had to keep just realizing, like, this is your job. You're not trying to do harm. The more honest you are, the more dangerous it feels like that has to be. Okay, the only reason I'm talking about it now, and I don't love to do this, but I see a lot of women on my substack specifically asking about this and grappling. Grappling with it themselves and the feelings.

[Anna Martin]

Of their male partner.

[Miranda July]

Yeah. Yeah. Or sometimes just their partner. And to be honest, all my writer friends and I, we all discuss this all the time, and there's all different solutions, and it's really, like, everyone's personal appetite for discord and risk and. Yeah. So I guess I just wanted to put that out there because I. Yeah. I don't want people to think that it was just easy for me.

[Anna Martin]

I appreciate you sharing that. It's making me think about, you know, you're talking about going through these Amazon reviews and reading some that say the narrator is so selfish. So selfish.

[Miranda July]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

And it's kind of speaking to. I mean, you didn't say selfish in that, you know, in what you just said. But perhaps the undercurrent of anxiety is, like, in writing this book and making this work, am I being selfish? Feels like a scary question to ask yourself. Did you ask yourself that question? And where did you land if you did?

[Miranda July]

This was the first book where I could put what I had to offer to work for other people in a more direct way. And that was so conscious. And, I mean, I started out the process by doing interviews with all different kinds of women from all different backgrounds about this time in their lives. You know, both perimenopause and menopause. But also, just what did it feel like? What did they long for? And those were, for a long time, part of the book. So maybe that was my way of trying not to feel selfish, that I had to kind of do that whole process to prove, like, I work for the census. Essentially, I'm just. Just taking down the facts. But then ultimately, like, that's not What I do, I'm a fiction writer. And, you know, fiction's the lie that tells the truth. So I realized, like, oh, there's no amount of truths, of factual, women's truths that are going to be as powerful as this one lie.

[Anna Martin]

Why do you think a middle aged woman creating space to find out what she wants and needs, why do you think that feels so subversive? Why do you think that merits the kinds of Amazon reviews you were saying where people hate this woman? What is it about that quest that is so threatening?

[Miranda July]

It seems to call people's choices into question and that's gotta feel really bad and upsetting. And also, how dare someone receive accolades and such attention for doing, you know, they call it selfish, but probably the feeling is sort of like it seems to judge them, you know, for not doing it. And I've even. I think we all kind of feel this, like, your friend gets divorced and you're like, should I get divorced? Like, you feel shaken by other women's choices and personally somehow implicated.

[Anna Martin]

I want to end on this idea of freedom. You've said during the course of this conversation that you really feel like in a lot of ways you're living in a way that feels more aligned with your true self right now, in this moment in your life, in the world, when do you feel the most free?

[Miranda July]

It's funny, my first thought, which is a different. I think my whole life, I'm gonna cry. My whole life, I would have said in here, in my studio when I'm alone, but my first thought was actually, like, with my girlfriend. Like, I just. It's funny because I'm so private. Like, no one knows who this girlfriend is like. But yeah, I just thought, like, I'm laughing and I'm just totally relaxed. And, you know, in some ways more than I. Like, I'm learning how to be that way alone, you know, I love that.

[Anna Martin]

Okay, truly, last question. Bit of a left field one. What music are you listening to right now? Like, what's getting you going? Is there any track we can end this episode on?

[Miranda July]

Can I take a moment with this? Cause I always balk. Cause I can't think.

[Anna Martin]

Of course.

[Miranda July]

Just want to look at my actual playlist. You could put like a Tirzah song.

[Anna Martin]

I love Tirzah. Yeah.

[Miranda July]

And this is good because it's very lightly referenced in the book. Holding on.

[Anna Martin]

I love that song.

[Miranda July]

Isn't that a great song?

[Anna Martin]

It's a great song. Wow. Imagine it playing in the background right now.

[Miranda July]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

Miranda, this was really fun. I'm really, really grateful for your time. Thank you so much.

[Miranda July]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Anna Martin]

This episode of Modern Love was produced by Sarah Curtis. It was edited by Lynn Levy and our executive producer, Jen Poyant. Production management by Christina Josa. The Modern Love theme music is by Dan Powell. Original music in this episode by Rowan Nimisto, Diane Wong, Alicia Biittoop and Dan Powell. This episode was mixed by Daniel Ramirez with studio support from Maddie Masiello and Nick Pittman. Our video team is Brooke Minters, Felice Leone, Michael Cordero and Sawyer Roque. Special thanks to Lisa Tobin, Bianca Flores and to Larissa Anderson, Gianna Palmer, Amy Pearl Davis Land, Jess Metzger, Mahima Chablani, Nelgoly, Jeffrey Miranda and Paula Schumann. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones. Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you want to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we have the instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.

[Narrator]

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