Anna Martin (2:42)

Camps or a time of reinvention.

Stephanie Gunning (2:45)

Y.

Anna Martin (2:45)

We turn to the outdoors sometimes and we're Looking for guidance.

Stephanie Gunning (2:48)

So I bought a bicycle. Never rode that bicycle. Not one time. It hung in my house.

Anna Martin (2:56)

I have done that.

Stephanie Gunning (2:56)

Yeah. I thought it looked so cute on my wall. I was like, look at me. I'm a Brooklyn girl with a bicycle. So as part of the maybe I'm someone who camps. I had a bunch of friends who are still some of my dearest friends. And they did camp. They were people who camp. And they said, we will take you camping. And I said, yay. They said, you need a pair of water shoes for walking around on the Tinkertoy River. And then you need a sleeping bag. And we were.

Anna Martin (3:28)

The way. You say that as if it's a foreign concept. Sleeping bag.

Stephanie Gunning (3:31)

A bag for sleep. And they said, everything else, we will provide for you. Oh, and boots. I needed hiking boots.

Anna Martin (3:38)

Okay? Crucial.

Stephanie Gunning (3:39)

Crucial to this thing. So I went to ems, where every man is cute. Every one of them was, like, more adorable than the next. And they're all outdoorsy, rugged, and, you know, like, delicious and wearing a flannel. And I was like, oh, yay, the 90s. So I said, hi, I need to buy these three things. Water shoes, hiking boots, sleeping bag. And the man said, oh, if you need boots, let me call Jonathan. He's the boot fitting expert. And I said, cool. So they called Jonathan. And from the back of EMS comes a young Gary Sinise. I don't know how else to describe it. In golden light. And I heard the Pixies singing Here Comes yous Man. I'm not even joking. Oh, my God. And I was like, oh, dear.

Anna Martin (4:26)

Can you sing it? What'd you hear in your ear?

Stephanie Gunning (4:27)

It was like, here comes your man. And I thought it was not even playing on the soundtrack. It just was in my brain. And I thought, oh, my goodness. He was with the kaleidoscope green and hazel eyes. He was a cyclist and a hiker, just an outdoor slim.

Anna Martin (4:48)

He's an expert at fitting boots and

Stephanie Gunning (4:50)

he will take care of you in the outdoors. And the thing, also about Jonathan, and this is the thing that drew me to him like a magnet, is the calmness that he emanates. I don't know how else to describe it. Like being near a tree. I don't know how else to describe it.

Anna Martin (5:09)

Oh, I love that. Being near a tree.

Stephanie Gunning (5:10)

And I thought, oh, oh, yes. I'm gonna buy everything in this store from this man. And so he fit me for boots. And he's like, okay, great. He said, so, is there anything else that you need? And I was like, boy, do I It is not an exaggeration to tell you I spent about $1,000 on camping equipment.

Anna Martin (5:29)

I didn't even say that.

Stephanie Gunning (5:29)

No, I did.

Anna Martin (5:30)

Kinds of love.

Stephanie Gunning (5:31)

I couldn't stop. So I got my boots, I got my water shoes. I got, I don't know, three pairs, four pairs of smartwool. I got my sleeping bag. And then I said to him, you know, he said, do you know, are you. I said, I think I need a tent. Why did I need a tent?

Anna Martin (5:46)

I didn't need one.

Stephanie Gunning (5:46)

And so he shows me a tent, and I said, oh, yeah, that looks good. I said, could you show me how to put it together? And he was. I mean, he was such a love. And he was like, sure. So he puts the tent together. And, I mean, really, I still think I. You know, like, I've kept it pretty tight. But, like, did I have game in the late 90s coming out of that divorce? I mean, with. Yeah, I was that girl. So I climb in the tent that he puts together, and I stick my little head out, and I'm like, you're gonna think this sounds crazy, but could you come in here with me? Oh, my God. He's like, huh? I was like, I just wanna see how it feels with two people. So I was in the tent, he climbed in the tent, and there he was. And I thought. I mean, I got nothing to lose at this point. And so I said, this is gonna sound nuts, but you seem like someone who it would be really fun to go camping with. Are you free this weekend?

Anna Martin (6:36)

I really am saying I'm rocking with you. I'm rolling with you.

Stephanie Gunning (6:39)

For real?

Anna Martin (6:39)

You're going for it?

Stephanie Gunning (6:40)

I went, yeah, I went there.

Anna Martin (6:42)

And what'd he say?

Stephanie Gunning (6:43)

No.

Anna Martin (6:43)

Okay,

Stephanie Gunning (6:46)

well, so he's. He. He got all flustered, and he was like, I have a girlfriend.

Anna Martin (6:52)

Oh, shoot.

Stephanie Gunning (6:53)

And I was like, okay.

Anna Martin (6:55)

All right, then, yeah, fair play.

Stephanie Gunning (6:57)

So it is. And then I was like, shit, I'm gonna have to buy this tent anyway, though. Cause otherwise he's gonna know that I.

Anna Martin (7:04)

You're like, what's the return policy on this stuff?

Stephanie Gunning (7:06)

Yeah, right? So he packs up all my stuff, my thousand dollars worth of equipment, and as I pay, and I give him my business card. And he was like, oh. And I said, you know, things change. Just things change. So that was in the summer of 2000. Fast forward to 9 11.

Anna Martin (7:25)

Okay?

Stephanie Gunning (7:26)

So now we're talking, you know, more than a year later. And 911 happened. I happened to have a landline phone. And word got out in the neighborhood that I had A landline. And strangers were just showing up at my house with baked goods and pizzas and their guitars and saying, you know, my name's Mike. I hear you have a landline. Would it be okay if I came in and called my parents?

Anna Martin (7:51)

I brought this pizza because the cell towers were down, correct?

Stephanie Gunning (7:54)

Yeah, exactly. Cell phones weren't working. So I called into my voicemail at work. I was working at MTV at the time. And lo and behold, there's a message from him. And the voicemail essentially said, I don't know if you're gonna remember me. I sold you boots in the summer of 2000. We've emailed a couple of times. I have your business card. I know that you work below 14th Street. Can you please just get in touch with me and let me know that you're okay? I carry your business card with me. I think about you every day. What? I broke up with my girlfriend. Oh, my God. But I didn't wanna call you right after I broke up with her. Cause I thought that would be weird. So then I wanted to wait a little bit, but then I got scared.

Anna Martin (8:47)

He's laying it all out on the

Stephanie Gunning (8:48)

ladder, so could you call me back? By the way, this is Jonathan.

Anna Martin (8:52)

I am completely endeared by that. Yeah, you know, he was the cute boot guy.

Stephanie Gunning (8:58)

Cute boot, cute boot.

Anna Martin (8:59)

Cute boot. You know? And now to get this voicemail that he has been thinking about you since he met you, carrying your business card around. I mean, how did that make you feel?

Stephanie Gunning (9:15)

You know, one of the themes of my own life is never being chosen. And I can't tell you if it's true or not, but it's how I felt.

Anna Martin (9:25)

I understand that.

Stephanie Gunning (9:27)

I had an awful biological father. My mom kicked him out when I was 6, thank God. But he showed up every now and then in my life and never for good. And when he did show up, I always had to audition. You know, Like, I was never. I was never the thing he wanted me to be as a daughter. So I just always felt like not chosen. You said not chosen. You know, Like, I was always auditioning and never quite measuring up, never quite fitting in. And when that voicemail came through, I thought, is this beautiful man choosing me really me?

Anna Martin (10:04)

So you call him back?

Stephanie Gunning (10:05)

I called him back. I was like, you bet I remember you get on that bicycle and come to Brooklyn. And I still wasn't sure if we were dating or if he just wanted to be friends like I was.

Anna Martin (10:16)

So he's carrying your damn business card around. But.

Stephanie Gunning (10:19)

But I had it in My mind that because of what he looked like and because of the family he came from, he comes from this lovely Connecticut family. I grew up in the Bronx. And I remember saying, like, I really think he might be out of my league. And my mother said to me, what does that mean? And I said, I just think he dates the kind of women who can wear a bandana as a shirt. You know what I mean? Those women. Of course I know. It's. She can. Like, she makes.

Anna Martin (10:44)

Not at all. All where I thought that was going. Totally, I get that.

Stephanie Gunning (10:48)

Yeah. Like, she's at the campsite and she takes a bandana and she ties it and it's a shirt.

Anna Martin (10:52)

I know what you're saying.

Stephanie Gunning (10:53)

Yes.

Anna Martin (10:55)

Because it's not really about the bandana. What did you mean? The kind of girl who. What? He probably dated the kind of girl

Stephanie Gunning (11:00)

who Slim grew up in the suburbs, grew up with wealth, grew up with an intact family, you know, didn't always have to feel like she was auditioning to be chosen. But who. Who could choose? She herself could choose.

Anna Martin (11:23)

I like what you said. Who would. Who could choose?

Stephanie Gunning (11:25)

Yes.

Anna Martin (11:25)

It was the kind of person who could choose. So you're going on these dates with Jonathan, but you're not sure if he's romantically interested in you?

Stephanie Gunning (11:33)

Correct.

Anna Martin (11:34)

And when did that become clear?

Stephanie Gunning (11:36)

So I wanna say it was our third date. So he took me on a private tour of Grant's Tomb. Cool. So cool. And I kept thinking, like, is he ever gonna kiss me? Like, we're here. It's so romantic.

Anna Martin (11:50)

We're in a tomb.

Stephanie Gunning (11:51)

We're in the tomb. Hello? Yeah. So then after the tomb, he took me to his favorite bar. And he got up, he went to the restroom, he came back, he sat down, he said, I need your help with something. And I said, oh, okay. He was like, look, here's the thing. This is our third date. You're going to have to kiss me. I have been trying all day and I don't have the guts for this. You're going to have to do it. But we got to do it this date because you're going to friend zone me. Otherwise. He's like, I. I know the rules. Three dates or I'm in the zone. Please just do it. And I was like, okay.

Anna Martin (12:23)

He is having the same thoughts about you.

Stephanie Gunning (12:26)

Correct.

Anna Martin (12:27)

I mean, give me a break.

Stephanie Gunning (12:28)

I know.

Anna Martin (12:29)

Here's what I will say. You know, these first couple dates, you're getting to know each other, but you're still putting your best foot forward, as it were.

Stephanie Gunning (12:36)

Oh, yes.

Anna Martin (12:37)

Both of you?

Stephanie Gunning (12:37)

It sounds like, yes, absolutely.

Anna Martin (12:39)

And at some point, the more real picture of who Jonathan is becomes very clear. And not to say that in any kind of foreboding way, but just a more complete picture. This happened on your fourth date. Tell me that story.

Stephanie Gunning (12:52)

So now we're supposed to go on his fourth date. And he was gonna take me to his favorite Chinese restaurant. And he called me and he said, listen, I think maybe we should postpone. And I said, oh, oh, okay. What's up? And he said, you know, I'm having a really rough night or a really rough day. And I said, what do you mean? And he said, it's just. It's. He said, you know, I told you, I. Yeah, I have depression and anxiety. He's like, I'm just. I'm having a hard day. And I said to him, listen, here's the thing. If you and I are gonna do this, you're gonna have to show me. So I'm coming. You told me there were soup dumplings. I'm coming and you're gonna show me. He said, or we can cancel.

Anna Martin (13:31)

Show you what?

Stephanie Gunning (13:32)

What? It was when he said, I'm depressed, I'm anxious, I'm having a hard day. I said, show me. Show me what you mean. I said, or we can just not see each other again because I'm already so far along, you gotta let me in. Show it to me.

Anna Martin (13:49)

You're so far along in that. What does that mean, that you're so. You're in love with him?

Stephanie Gunning (13:55)

I just was. I couldn't imagine not. I mean, he was. I talked to him every. He called me every morning at work to say hello. I called him every night to say goodnight. I mean, it just. And we hadn't slept together yet, even. But he just. We fell in with each other. So he said, okay. Really? Yeah. He's like, I'll see you there. And so we met at the restaurant and we sat down and I said, okay, tell me. And he told me, you know, he told me that he had suffered with depression and anxiety his whole life.

Anna Martin (14:31)

Do you remember even. I mean. And I know it's a while ago, but, like, do you remember a specific thing he told you about his depression? Or what can you recall?

Stephanie Gunning (14:44)

You know, what he said to me was, it's. And I do wanna give a trigger warning here for suicide, because suicide is something that I don't wanna say. It's large in our life, but it's present, I think, in a way that it maybe isn't for other people. He said, you know, sometimes it just gets very dark, and I feel afraid to leave my house. And I worry that no one needs me, no one loves me, no one cares about me. And, you know, that I. I'm not contributing, you know? And I. You know, I said, do you ever. Have you ever thought about suicide?

Anna Martin (15:24)

That's a very, very direct question for you to ask.

Stephanie Gunning (15:29)

So we talked about suicide, and we.

Anna Martin (15:31)

What did he say when you asked him that question?

Stephanie Gunning (15:33)

He said that he had contemplated getting a gun and shooting himself, but it seemed like quite a hassle. So we talked and talked and talked about our families, about our darkest secrets, about the things we're ashamed of. We both cried. They brought us extra tea. I mean, it was. It was. It was the kind of conversation you have with someone after years or your therapist. I mean, but we just went for broke.

Anna Martin (16:03)

I mean, it. It. It does strike me that this conversation this early in a budding relationship might scare someone.

Stephanie Gunning (16:14)

Oh, yes.

Anna Martin (16:15)

When you left the Chinese restaurant from that fourth date, were you thinking differently about your future with Jonathan?

Stephanie Gunning (16:23)

You know, when we were done eating and everything, so he said to me at the end of dinner, you know, finally, they were like, we are closing. You must leave. And we were like, okay, we'll leave. He said to me, so, what do you think? Huh? Wow.

Anna Martin (16:35)

What a seemingly innocuous question that contains so much. Yeah, what do you think? What'd you take that to mean?

Stephanie Gunning (16:43)

I took it as, are we gonna see each other again or is this it? Like, what do you think? Yeah. And I was like, you said you live near her, right?

Anna Martin (16:50)

Yeah, girl.

Stephanie Gunning (16:51)

And he said, as a matter of fact, I do. This way, please. And up we went to his little studio. And it was magical. It was all just easy, you know,

Anna Martin (17:05)

I'm just thinking about this, you know, half an hour before you were smooching in his studio, you were opening up about the darkest corners of yourselves that you hadn't shown. It sounds like to many people, if anyone else.

Stephanie Gunning (17:19)

That's right.

Anna Martin (17:20)

So it's easy in some ways, and it's incredibly difficult in other ways.

Stephanie Gunning (17:25)

It's a very brilliant observation because all of it was so easy, we forgot it was also hard.

Anna Martin (17:34)

Huh.

Stephanie Gunning (17:37)

I really thought. And I mean, this sounds so naive. I really thought that we would love each other enough that we would never have problems again.

Anna Martin (17:46)

Was there ever a moment where you stopped and thought, like, we should maybe make a plan for how we might deal with this if it comes? No.

Stephanie Gunning (17:56)

No. Nope. My thought was not, should I marry someone who is very clearly living with a major depressive disorder who has medication and therapy. And look, it had not all been smooth sailing. He had had. He's always had rough days. He's always had anxiety. He always struggled in certain ways. But I loved him so much, and I just didn't care. It never crossed my mind. I just figured, our love will find a way and I will find a way.

Anna Martin (18:35)

Our love will find a way and I will find a way. We'll be right back. We've been the trusted experts since 1960 because nobody knows tires better than we do. And with over 90 tire brands, we have an abundance of options in stock for your vehicle. Buy and Drive today@discounttire.com Let's get you taken care of. This episode is brought to you by Nordstrom.

Stephanie Gunning (19:18)

Spring calls for wardrobe refresh, and Nordstrom has the best styles of the season. From dresses and denims to standout tops and accessories, find the trends and essentials that feel right for you. Discover new arrivals from the brands you love, like Waif, Princess, Polly, Mango, Adidas, and free people. Plus free shipping and returns and free styling appointments. Make everything so easy. Shop in stores@nordstrom.com or download the Nordstrom app at.

Sponsor/Advertisement Voice (19:46)

Nature's Bounty. The belief is simple. You already have a brilliant body. Supplements just help support your journey. For over 50 years, nature's bounty has offered vitamins and supplements to help you eat, sleep, thrive, repeat. From magnesium glycinate for heart and muscle support to hair growth capsules for fuller, thicker hair and probiotics. With 20 billion live cultures for digestion. Nature's Bounty. It's in your nature to thrive. Learn more@naturesbounty.com these statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.

Anna Martin (20:25)

You get married.

Stephanie Gunning (20:26)

Yes.

Anna Martin (20:27)

And then you start this married life together. You know, early on in your relationship, Jonathan had. On that fourth date.

Stephanie Gunning (20:36)

Yeah.

Anna Martin (20:37)

Jonathan had shared, you know, about the ways he'd struggled in the past, the depths that he'd reached. When you were living together in this new married life, did you see that side of him?

Stephanie Gunning (20:51)

Mm. Yeah.

Anna Martin (20:52)

What did it look like? Like, specifically?

Stephanie Gunning (20:54)

Um, it looked like sleeping in.

Anna Martin (20:58)

Mm.

Stephanie Gunning (21:00)

It looked like quiet. It looked like difficulty socializing with others, being with friends, going places, doing things. And then other times, things were great. Mm.

Anna Martin (21:17)

In the times when it was tough, would you. What was your approach? Would you talk to him? Would you give him. How did you handle it?

Stephanie Gunning (21:25)

I compensated. I don't want to say I made excuses for Him, But I think I did. Yeah. Well, tell me. What? I don't want to say it, but as I'm thinking, I'm like. But I did.

Anna Martin (21:41)

As in, like, that your friends would be like, where's Jonathan? And you'd be like, he's just working.

Stephanie Gunning (21:45)

He's working. Or, oh, he's something like. I often would describe him as shy. I would say, oh, Jonathan is shy. That's why he's so quiet. John is not shy. John is gregarious.

Anna Martin (21:59)

And you said that because you wanted to protect him.

Stephanie Gunning (22:02)

Yes, because I wanted to protect him. Because he is my precious love and because the world is hard for him sometimes and because it's no one's business. So, yeah, I wanted to protect him.

Anna Martin (22:14)

And then when he was down, I don't even know if that's. What language would you use? How would you talk about it to each other when you were. When he was lower.

Stephanie Gunning (22:24)

So I would get angry a lot. You know, I don't wanna paint myself as any kind of saint. I did get angry and we would fight sometimes.

Anna Martin (22:32)

What were you angry about?

Stephanie Gunning (22:33)

I felt he would disappear. So the way I talk about it and have talked about it is I talk about the documentary. So I have a lot of pictures of Jonathan facing away from me, looking out over vistas. I don't know how this started, but, like, he just would sort of strike a pose and, like, look out on the Grand Canyon or look out over a bridge. And I found it so endearing. Like, his body language was like, look at that. So I have all these pictures of him facing away from me looking out at something, and some of them are ducks. And I would say to him, the depression is like the dock, and how far you are away on the dock is how bad things are in terms of the depression. And so sometimes he would just be like two feet out on the dock, and I would be like, hey, come back. Turn around. Come back here. And then sometimes he'd be really far and I couldn't even touch him. And I'd have to yell and be like, jonathan, turn around. Come back. You're too far. Other times he would disappear and I could just sort of make out him, his outline in the mist. And I'd get scared and I would say, I would call for him, like, come back. Come back to me. And when he would get far away, I would get angry because I would feel abandoned. Which, of course, you know, I think I've told you enough now already. Like, that for me is, you know, don't leave me Whatever you do, stay. Stay sick. I don't care. I don't care how sick you are. Stay with me. You can't. You can't leave me. Sorry.

Anna Martin (24:11)

No, I'm. I mean, it's. I am feeling extremely moved by this image. Come back to me.

Stephanie Gunning (24:18)

Come back to me. You know, early in the relationship, very early, I. I had just. We were just newly married, and I got pregnant the old fashioned way, by which I mean by accident. And I found out I was pregnant while I was at work. I was in a bathroom stall at Nickelodeon, and the first person I told was the guy at the deli because I needed a decaf.

Anna Martin (24:45)

It's a real New York story.

Stephanie Gunning (24:46)

It's such a New York, you know, shout out to Abraham at the Starlight Deli, who was the first person who knew I was pregnant. But I went home that night and I very tearfully said to him, I have something to tell you. And I was a vegetarian when he met me. Cause I had been through a bout of food poisoning, so I was off meat. And then when I was pregnant but didn't know it, I started eating bacon twice a day. And I was like, I'm cheating on Jonathan with bacon. And I went home after I had taken my pregnancy tests, like three of them, in the stall at Nickelodeon. I was like, this can't be happening. I went home and I very tearfully said to him, I have something to tell you. And he said, what? And I said, I'm pregnant and I've been eating bacon. And he said, you've been eating bacon? And I said, yes, and I'm pregnant. So we went to sleep that night. We woke up the next morning and I got up, I went to the bathroom, and I started crying. And I thought, I cannot do this. I can't do this. I cannot have a baby. And I woke him up from a sound sleep and said, listen to me. I don't know who the hell I think I am. I don't know who I thought I was that I could have this life. I don't know who I've been playing at. Girls like me don't get lives like this. So here's what I need. I want a divorce and I want an abortion. Wow. And I cannot. This is over now. I cannot live through this because I will have this baby and it'll turn you into a father. And fathers leave. And I can't do it. I can't do it, Jonathan. So I want an abortion and I want a divorce. And he sat with me and he said, and this is, anything else you need to know about Jonathan, you will now learn. Jonathan said to me, look, if you want an abortion, I will take you for an abortion today. If you want a divorce, I will give you a divorce. But here's the thing. He's like. You know that thing in Winnie the Pooh where the character says, if you live to be a hundred, I want to live to be 100 minus one day so I never have to be without you. And he said, stephanie, here's the thing. I will sit on the stoop if that's what it requires. But if you live to be a hundred, I'm gonna live to be 100 plus one day so that you never have to be without me, because I am the man who's never gonna leave you. And I said, okay, we'll have a baby. Yeah, that was it. I said, okay, I'll have. Let's have the baby.

Anna Martin (27:17)

And this is how your daughter was born.

Stephanie Gunning (27:18)

That's how Emmy came. That's how Emmy came? Yeah.

Anna Martin (27:23)

Once Emmy was born.

Stephanie Gunning (27:24)

Mm.

Anna Martin (27:27)

How did you talk about, you know, Jonathan. Dad's depression with her?

Stephanie Gunning (27:35)

Mm. Often.

Anna Martin (27:36)

Really?

Stephanie Gunning (27:37)

Yes. From.

Anna Martin (27:37)

From what age?

Stephanie Gunning (27:39)

Always.

Anna Martin (27:39)

Wow.

Stephanie Gunning (27:40)

So I grew up with secrets because of this, and I. It sort of doesn't matter what the secrets were. The point is, there were many, like, jump scares in my own growing up. Like what?

Anna Martin (27:54)

You know? Yeah.

Stephanie Gunning (27:55)

What do you mean? Grandpa isn't your father? So it was really important for us that there be no secrets in our household. Privacy. Absolutely. Everyone is entitled to their privacy. No question about that. But not secrets. No jump scares.

Anna Martin (28:11)

So how would you talk about depression with a really young kid?

Stephanie Gunning (28:15)

We called it the Big Blue.

Anna Martin (28:16)

The Big Blue?

Stephanie Gunning (28:17)

Yeah.

Anna Martin (28:18)

Wow.

Stephanie Gunning (28:19)

We called it the Big Blue. We drew pictures of it, and we talked about how sometimes dad, you know, dad has a kind of sadness called the Big Blue. And sometimes the Big Blue is little, and it just kind of flutes around with him, and he can be like, quit it, Big Blue. Get out of here. Scram, you. Other times, Big Blue wraps itself around dad. Other times, the Big Blue is so big that you can almost not see dad, but dad is always there. Dad. You can always find dad. You can always see dad. But sometimes the Big Blue is a little bigger than dad, and we have to give him lots of love and lots of understanding during those times. Yeah. And he was her primary caretaker, and, you know, we raised her together, obviously, but I worked full time, and he stayed home with her and took care of her and took her to the doctor, and he was the School, parent. And he did all this while depressed. Cause you can live a life depressed. You know, that's the other thing. Like, people talk about depression as, oh, that's when I was depressed. Almost like it was an individuated time or a compartment.

Anna Martin (29:27)

Yeah. A chapter in your life that you can enter and then leave.

Stephanie Gunning (29:29)

It's not. You know, you were just a person who lives with depression the same way you live with any chronic illness. You know, it doesn't have to be a time in your life that is secret, and it doesn't have to be something to be ashamed of.

Anna Martin (29:42)

Where was your mental health at this time?

Stephanie Gunning (29:45)

So the toilet is really the answer. And, you know, I mean, that sounds facetious. I never actually stopped to think about my mental health. Everything rested on me. A lot of things got done. You know, everybody's life was very easy because I was a pretzel, turning myself in and out. Everybody had health insurance because I worked to stay employed and big jobs, you know, because I was our sole breadwinner, and I wanted us to have a certain kind of life because it mattered to me. I like a nice blanket.

Anna Martin (30:25)

And you wanted your family to be comfortable and have those blankets as well. Of course, you were handling it.

Stephanie Gunning (30:34)

Correct.

Anna Martin (30:34)

I mean, he was at home with Emmy, certainly. So you had your parts, but you were really. You were the one who was keeping the plate spinning.

Stephanie Gunning (30:42)

Yes. I mean, you know, I joke about if there is a form to fill out, they both come. You're gonna be filling out the form. Literally. I have been in meetings, like in London, and someone will send me a note. What is my password? It's like, I. Oh, my God.

Anna Martin (30:58)

No, I mean.

Stephanie Gunning (30:59)

But I know is the thing. It's like, hold on. I have it. Like, I do have your. That's the thing. I have your password, and I do know how to log into the. And I also, yes, I did file the taxes, and I did pay the insurance premium. And yes, the mortgage is on autopay. But when you live your life that way, there's so little softness. You know, the margins are so thin. Because I always felt, and I don't know that I could have articulated this before very recently, if I made a misstep, the whole thing fell down.

Anna Martin (31:36)

That is a lot of pressure, Stephanie.

Stephanie Gunning (31:37)

Yes. And when I say the whole thing falls down, I mean, the schools, Emmy goes to, the way we live our life, the way we spend our money. You know, I wanna take us back for a moment. You know, I said to you, as a younger woman, I was constantly like, Auditioning for my own life. Love me. I'm worthy. I'm someone. Like choose me. That never really stopped, you know, there was still this nature of I will be the most. I will be the most loving wife. I will be the most excellent mother. Look at all the. Look at the summer camps. Look at the private college. Look at the. The dog goes to daycare. The look at our. Look at our home in the bougiest Brooklyn neighborhood that ever bougied. Look at us going to Cape Cod for two weeks like it mattered. Because it mattered to me that they feel my love in these tangible, provable ways.

Anna Martin (32:36)

It sounds like family life. Life at home was relatively stable for quite a while.

Stephanie Gunning (32:43)

Mm.

Anna Martin (32:45)

Tell me when that changed.

Stephanie Gunning (32:48)

So in 2023, Jonathan called me at work to say, yeah, I'm not feeling so well. I think I might be having a heart attack. I'm gonna go to the hospital. And he had multiple pulmonary embolisms. He was discharged from the hospital, he came home, he was on blood thinners. Follow up with doctors, and we were supposed to just go on with our life. And he just. It was an existential crisis for him. He recovered physically, but emotionally, he just got darker and darker and more and more frightened and more and more sad. And he did an intensive outpatient program. He did ketamine therapy. He did emdr. I mean, he just was so traumatized by the existential fear of this. And, I mean, I don't pretend to know exactly what happened, whether it was a chemical reaction, but he just kept slipping farther and farther away. And we talked about the document. It was the first time I couldn't see him.

Anna Martin (34:09)

Stay with us.

Sponsor/Advertisement Voice (34:22)

And Doug, there's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual, even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show.

Anna Martin (34:32)

Hey, everyone, Check out this guy and his bird.

Stephanie Gunning (34:34)

What is this, your first date?

Anna Martin (34:35)

Oh, no.

Sponsor/Advertisement Voice (34:36)

We help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual. Together. We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird.

Anna Martin (34:42)

Yeah, the bird looks out of your league.

Sponsor/Advertisement Voice (34:44)

Anyways, Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty.

Stephanie Gunning (34:48)

Liberty.

Anna Martin (34:48)

Liberty.

Stephanie Gunning (34:49)

Liberty.

Sponsor/Advertisement Voice (34:50)

At Nature's Bounty, the belief is simple. You already have a brilliant body. Supplements just help support your journey. For over 50 years, nature's bounty has offered vitamins and supplements to help you eat, sleep, thrive. Repeat. From magnesium glycinate for heart and muscle support to hair growth capsules for fuller, thicker hair and probiotics. With 20 billion live cultures for digestion, nature's bounty. It's in your nature to thrive. Learn more@naturesbounty.com these statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.

Sponsor/Advertisement Voice (35:20)

On Deck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, On Deck's loans up to $400,000. Make it happen fast. Rated A by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five star trust pilot reviews, Ondeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes@ondeck.com depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by Ondeck or Celtic Bank. Ondeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

Anna Martin (35:59)

You've described that he's. He's getting farther and farther away from you. And I wonder if you can bring me into the morning where you almost lost him.

Stephanie Gunning (36:10)

He had been doing therapy online, and I heard him shrieking during his therapy session. Crying and shrieking. I am not proud of this. But I recall I was sitting at my desk, I was working from home, and I was like, oh, God, what now? Cause I was angry, but I was also really scared, you know? And I felt defeated. Cause we had done everything. And I thought, oh, my God, like, what is there left to do? And I remember thinking, like, is he gonna come back? I mean, it was terrifying. And he said, I have to go or I'm gonna hurt myself. I have to go. I'm gonna hurt you. I'm gonna hurt Emmy. I have to go. I have to go.

Anna Martin (37:01)

Had you heard him say anything like that?

Stephanie Gunning (37:02)

Never before. Never, ever, ever.

Anna Martin (37:05)

Were you scared?

Stephanie Gunning (37:06)

Yes. Yes. And it was, you know, come for me, all right, Maybe we go down together, you and me. It wouldn't be the worst thing. You come for my daughter. If there's a choice to be made, my friend, I choose her.

Anna Martin (37:22)

But this is impossible.

Stephanie Gunning (37:24)

Impossible.

Anna Martin (37:24)

Because this is your husband, correct? Who you love?

Stephanie Gunning (37:27)

Yes. The thought that he. The love and tenderness and kindness and devotion he has shown to both of us, the exquisite care he has taken with both of us. I watched him raise her. The fact that this man, this gentle, loving man, would say, I'm scared I'm going to hurt myself. I'm scared I'm gonna hurt you. I'm scared I'm gonna hurt her. I was scared to death.

Anna Martin (37:54)

Did you talk to Emmy about what was happening?

Stephanie Gunning (37:57)

Yes. I went into Emmy's room and I said, here's what's going on dad. And you know, when she was 12, I remember saying to her, like, dad's having a real rough big blue. And she's like, mom, I know it's depression.

Anna Martin (38:10)

It's like. Not Santa Claus.

Stephanie Gunning (38:12)

Yeah, it's like, I get it, you know? So I went and I said, listen, Dad's having a really rough time. And she said, oh, I heard. And I said, I'm going to take dad to the hospital, walk the dog. I'll be back as soon as I can. And Emmy said to me, mommy, are you okay? And I said, oh, yeah, I'm fine. I'm fine. Everything's fine. Don't worry. Everything. I'll be back. I'll be back later. I love you. I'll see you later. So off we go in our lift to NYU Hospital. We walk in the doors and let me tell you, you walk up to the front desk and they say, why are you here? And you say, I'm afraid I'm going to kill myself and my family. Boy, oh boy. You do not have to sit in triage.

Anna Martin (38:57)

Noted.

Stephanie Gunning (38:58)

Noted. Yeah. So the social worker comes flying in and we are taken into a room. He is. He doesn't even look like himself. The physical changes that came over him as a result of this depressive episode were really astounding. I talked to you about his kaleidoscope eyes. Flat brown. His posture changed. He's like 6ft 6, 1, 62 around there. He was all hollowed in. Short, small. He seems like a shadow of himself. I don't know how else to describe it. So everyone was wonderful. They sat em down and you know, they have to do the entry and they ask you the horrible questions. Have you ever thought about hurting yourself? Yes. Have you ever thought about hurting others? Yes. Who have you thought about hurting? My wife? My daughter? What are you thinking? I'll get a gun. Oh my God. I'll shoot them and I'll shoot myself.

Anna Martin (39:58)

And you're in the room.

Stephanie Gunning (39:59)

Yes, I was in the room.

Anna Martin (40:00)

That is so intense.

Stephanie Gunning (40:01)

Yeah. And I was holding him. I was holding him and he was like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And I said, no, no, no, no. It's all right. This is the place to say it. This is the place to say it.

Anna Martin (40:12)

So this was basically the worst case scenario. Yes. Every worst. Well, I guess not the worst case in the sense that he did something to himself. But him having these thoughts.

Stephanie Gunning (40:22)

Yes.

Anna Martin (40:23)

Is the extreme end of anything you've seen from him.

Stephanie Gunning (40:26)

It was one step from the worst. The worst is that he hurt Himself, Emmy and me. Yeah, well, the real nightmare is he hurt himself and Emmy and left me alone. That is endgame. We were two steps from endgame. And I am so grateful to him for reaching out from the dark and saying, help me. Help me. I cannot pretend anymore that I'm getting better. I am not getting better. Help me.

Anna Martin (40:59)

Were you worried about if he, as Jonathan, would ever come back to himself?

Stephanie Gunning (41:05)

Yes. Oh, yes. And I remember thinking things like, I don't think I ever wanna date again. I don't think I ever wanna.

Anna Martin (41:15)

So you're going into the like, you divorce type or you break up type thing.

Stephanie Gunning (41:20)

Long term planning, I mean, every possible scenario. But the thing is, that can be very useful when you're producing an event, for example, or writing a campaign or doing message testing, you know, all the things I do in my work. It can be very useful to think what happens if the truck with the costumes breaks down on the highway. It is not so useful for your brain to run every possible scenario when what you need to do that night is comfort your daughter and take care of your dog and set up the coffee. And how about let work know that your entire life just fell apart and maybe you won't be there tomorrow.

Anna Martin (42:01)

Did you not let them know that

Stephanie Gunning (42:03)

I went to work the next day?

Anna Martin (42:04)

Oh, my gosh.

Stephanie Gunning (42:06)

Mm. Because I'm okay is my brand right? Competency. Holding it together, keeping it together.

Anna Martin (42:15)

How long did Jonathan stay in the hospital?

Stephanie Gunning (42:17)

Two weeks.

Anna Martin (42:18)

Two weeks?

Stephanie Gunning (42:19)

Yeah.

Anna Martin (42:19)

And when he came home, what was the situ you'd planned for all these different situations? What was the actual reality of the situation?

Stephanie Gunning (42:28)

So while he was in the hospital, you know, they retitrated and all of his medicine. But the most important thing they did for him was he went through 13 rounds of ECT, and that is electroconvulsive therapy. And ECT has a terrible reputation as being torture, the last resort. So, you know, people think of ECT as a nightmare. It actually was exactly what he needed. And Emerson referred to it as, oh, they unplugged dad and plugged him back in.

Anna Martin (43:04)

Wow. It was that effective?

Stephanie Gunning (43:06)

Yes.

Anna Martin (43:06)

That's amazing.

Stephanie Gunning (43:07)

Pretty much, yes. I mean, and you know, there are side effects, there's some memory loss, but nothing. If you put it on the scale, the benefits are so, so much more significant than any memory lapses or. He doesn't really remember the treatment. He doesn't really remember being in the hospital. He remembers me coming to visit. I went and had dinner with him a couple of times. And you would order from this menu and then meals would come on this cart. And he had ordered ice cream for dessert. And he offered to share his ice cream with me. I remember thinking, he wants to share his psychiatric ward ice cream with me. Like, who is sweeter than this man? And I said, no, no, you eat your whole ice cream.

Anna Martin (43:53)

It's for you in some way. He's back.

Stephanie Gunning (43:55)

Yes. He started to come back in the hospital, and he continued with ECT on an outpatient basis after he came home. So he came home after two weeks in the hospital.

Anna Martin (44:08)

Where were you, though?

Stephanie Gunning (44:10)

Right.

Anna Martin (44:11)

So.

Stephanie Gunning (44:13)

So my reckoning finally arrived.

Anna Martin (44:15)

Yeah.

Stephanie Gunning (44:16)

In early September. I really thought I had pulled it off.

Anna Martin (44:24)

And by the way, can I just say, you had in so many ways.

Stephanie Gunning (44:27)

In many ways I had.

Anna Martin (44:28)

You really had. But let's just say. So I'm giving you much credit. You thought you'd pulled it off.

Stephanie Gunning (44:33)

I really had thought I'd pulled it off.

Anna Martin (44:35)

You didn't even take a single day off work.

Stephanie Gunning (44:36)

I think I took a few days off from. I do. I took a little time off from work. I definitely took time off to go bring Emmy back to school. So now it's early September, and Jonathan's home and Emmy's at school. And so, you know, I'm at work. And I really thought, like, I did it, you know, I held it all together, and I received some feedback from people I respect at work that would indicate the contrary. And, you know, without getting too deep into the details, it really rattled me, because if I wasn't the one who held it all together, number one, who would? And number two, who was I? And I received the feedback with graciousness, because feedback is a gift. I believe I sat with it for 24 hours. And then 24 hours after I had this conversation with these people who I really respected and whose opinion I cared about, I started crying and I couldn't stop. I was in the shower, and I had. I never really understood when people talk about, like, oh, I had a flashback, or, oh, I got triggered. You know, we use these words now, and it's like I never really knew what it meant. I mean, I would never doubt anybody's experience, but I also was like, I hadn't lived it. I hadn't lived it. I was like, what's that? Like, I was in the shower, and I got a visceral picture of Jonathan on the ward in soft pants and a soft shirt and socks, and I started weeping. And then I felt like I couldn't stand up anymore. And so I got down on my hands and knees in the shower, crying. And I thought to myself, oh, dear, I. I think maybe I'm not okay now. And I screamed for him. And Jonathan came. He's like, what's happening? What's happening? And I said to him, you went to the psych ward? It's like, it just hit me. And he said, but I'm here now. I'm here now. I said, but you went to the psych ward? Like, it all. It was almost as if I wasn't actually living it when I lived it. And it all showed up in that moment. So he held me out of the shower, and he wrapped me in a towel, and I was. I mean, the physicality of it, like, I never really understood the physicality of this kind of a mental health crisis either. I was freezing cold, shaking, nauseous, couldn't get warm, thankfully, you know, I have a doctor who I really trust. And I sent him a note and said, I think I might not be all right. And he got back to me immediately. He called in a prescription, you know, we knew how to get to. And I was like, should we call the. Like, we both had.

Anna Martin (47:32)

There is a really interesting role reversal here. Of course.

Stephanie Gunning (47:35)

Yes.

Anna Martin (47:36)

With Jonathan comforting you. And how did that feel, to be on that side?

Stephanie Gunning (47:40)

It's horrifying because this idea of, like, trusting someone else to take care of me. What do you mean you're gonna take care of me? I take care of me and you and you and the dog and everyone at work and the assignment and the clients and the project. Oh, the board at the building also need. I will do that. What, someone in the neighborhood? Yes. And also. Yes, I sent in the taxes. Yeah, I did it.

Anna Martin (48:07)

Yeah.

Stephanie Gunning (48:08)

So this notion of, like, it's. And it's a control thing, right? Like, if I give myself over to you, will you do a good job of taking care of me? So that was number one. You know, this fear of, like, can I trust? And also, like, are you okay? Are you okay?

Anna Martin (48:25)

Yeah. Are you okay to handle mine? Not okay.

Stephanie Gunning (48:27)

I was like, do we need, like, an adjoining room at nyu? Like, what are we up to at this point?

Anna Martin (48:33)

Like a couples suite?

Stephanie Gunning (48:34)

Yeah. Do you have a couples rate here? That's so funny. At NYU Psychiatric?

Anna Martin (48:39)

That's funny.

Stephanie Gunning (48:41)

So I spoke with my doctor, and he said to me, you must tell them at work you are taking some time.

Anna Martin (48:51)

Yes.

Stephanie Gunning (48:52)

And I said, oh, no, just give me more medicine. And he said, no, no, you must speak with them. And I said, no, no, I'm fine. And he said, no, you are not. You need to take fmla, which is Family Medical Leave act, you know, extended protected leave. And to this man, while crying, because I still was crying, I just didn't feel so horribly activated. I said, no, no, that's for sick people. And he said, stephanie, you are sick people.

Anna Martin (49:25)

Yeah.

Stephanie Gunning (49:26)

I said, no, no, I'm not sick people. He said, yeah, you are. And I ended up taking 10 weeks.

Anna Martin (49:33)

I mean, it does strike me that, you know, we've spoken about how much your competency, your work defines you. So taking time off is a big deal for you.

Stephanie Gunning (49:47)

It was the scariest thing I've ever done.

Anna Martin (49:49)

And admitting that you are not okay, and admitting that you need help and accepting care. How did Jonathan step up?

Stephanie Gunning (50:00)

Well, here's the thing. Beautifully, beautifully. Jonathan stepped in with love, with support, and all I wanted to do was sleep and walk the dog. I did pretty intensive somatic trauma reprocessing therapy twice a week, which was exhausting to the point where I would have to lie under a weighted blanket. Afterwards, I went to physical therapy. Cause my body was all screwed up from years of holding myself in real tension. So, you know, I was really. I was on medical leave, it was not a vacation. And Jonathan tended to me. And I thought, it's true, you came back. You know, it's. This is the thing that. This is the miracle at the heart of all of it, that someone kept their promise. And even when I fell apart, you know, suddenly all of it, you know, the whole story from that, that auditioning to be the girl who wears a bandana as a shirt. 20 years ago in the EMS, I still can't wear a bandana as a shirt. I cannot wear a bandana as one half of a bra. At this point, not only could I be. And this was really me at my worst, I was not good. I was not okay. I didn't look good, I didn't feel good. He had to remind me to eat. He had to remind me to drink. I mean, the only thing I could reliably do was shower. And then I would sleep and he would let me sleep. And in that time, you know, in those 10 weeks when Emerson was at school and it was just the two of us at home, we got well together. I don't know how else to say it. We tended to each other. We. We took the dog for walks and we took care of each other and we looked out for each other. And I let him help me and I let him take care of me. I've never let anyone do that in my whole life. And then it was Thanksgiving, and we hosted.

Anna Martin (52:16)

Wow.

Stephanie Gunning (52:16)

Yeah.

Anna Martin (52:17)

You did.

Stephanie Gunning (52:18)

We did.

Anna Martin (52:18)

And, well, it's the cheesiest question in the world, but can I ask. You're looking around this Thanksgiving table at Jonathan, at Emmy, after getting well.

Stephanie Gunning (52:30)

Mm.

Anna Martin (52:32)

With the love of your life.

Stephanie Gunning (52:33)

Mm.

Anna Martin (52:34)

What are you thankful for?

Stephanie Gunning (52:36)

Well, that's the thing. I am thankful to have broken. I am thankful to have broken. I am thankful that I could open my teeny, tiny Brooklyn apartment to the people who I love so much, where literally, we were rearranging chairs so that people could go to the bathroom. I mean, it was hilarious. And we put on a feast, and here we all were. There was no. You know, I had made such a point my whole life of, like, Emerson will live in truth. But she wasn't, because I was pretending to be okay when I wasn't, and Jonathan was pretending to be better than he was. And now we live in absolute truth. It was welcome into our home. We have somehow too many and not enough chairs and only one bathroom. The dog is not feeling well, and the oven is not big enough to make a whole turkey, so I only made the breast. But you are welcome here in our real lives with us, where there is nothing but love. It is not perfect. We are not a Norman Rockwell family. We will never be a Norman Rockwell family. Everyone is on some kind of antidepressants or anti.

Anna Martin (53:52)

There's Prozac in the Lyme.

Stephanie Gunning (53:53)

Do you need ADHD medicine? We have that. Do you need anxiety medicine? We have that. Does someone need an antidepressant? We've got that, too.

Anna Martin (54:03)

God.

Stephanie Gunning (54:03)

But having fallen apart, both of us, there is now. I no longer worry he will someday disappear, because I know for a fact, without fail, this man will always come home to me. He's not going to leave me. He always comes back.

Anna Martin (54:28)

I want to return to this image I. I love so much, which is this image of the doc. Yeah. And I wonder, after all this, is that still the image for you? Is there a different one? Has the doc changed in any way?

Stephanie Gunning (54:40)

No, it's still a doc. But I feel him beside me now. In a way, I have never felt him beside me. And the doc is there. I mean, it's there. And I don't know that. Look, I might get on it one day. I mean, you know, now that I have taken a walk down the dock myself, and I did not like it, and I was really happy to come back, but, you know, once you walk down the dock, the dock doesn't disappear. The dock is always there. But for now, today, we're on the ground together. We're not on the dock. We're living. We're living our lives. We are on the other side of it.

Anna Martin (55:21)

And

Stephanie Gunning (55:25)

there's something so liberating about when the worst thing happens and you get up and make the coffee, you take the dog for a walk, the worst thing happens and still life goes on. And if you are lucky, the ones you love come back.

Anna Martin (55:43)

Stephanie, thank you so much for this conversation.

Stephanie Gunning (55:46)

Thank you for having me. I really, I'm so honored to, to have been invited.

Anna Martin (55:59)

If you're having thoughts of suicide, call the National Suicide prevention lifeline at 1-800-273-TALK. That's 1-800-273-8255 in the US or go to speakingofsuicide.com resources for a list of additional resources. If you want to read Stephanie's Modern Love essay that inspired our conversation, look for the link in our show notes. The Modern Love team is Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Reeva Goldberg, and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Elisa Gutierrez. It was edited by Linda Lynn Levy and Jen Poyant. Our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez. Original music in this episode by Alicia Be Itup, Rowan Nimisto, Marion Lozano, Pat McCusker, and Dan Powell. Dan also composed our theme music. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones, and Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you want to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we've got the instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.

Sponsor/Advertisement Voice (57:41)

And Doug, there's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual, even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show.

Stephanie Gunning (57:50)

Hey, everyone.

Anna Martin (57:51)

Check out this guy and his bird.

Stephanie Gunning (57:53)

What is this, your first date?

Sponsor/Advertisement Voice (57:54)

Oh, no. We help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual together. We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird.

Anna Martin (58:01)

Yeah, the bird looks out of your league anyway.

Sponsor/Advertisement Voice (58:03)

Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com.

Stephanie Gunning (58:06)

liberty. Liberty.

Anna Martin (58:07)

Liberty.

Stephanie Gunning (58:08)

Liberty.