Peter Gallagher’s Marriage Advice? Don’t Get Divorced.

Summary

Modern Love Podcast Summary
Episode: Peter Gallagher’s Marriage Advice? Don’t Get Divorced
Host: Anna Martin
Release Date: May 22, 2024

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Introduction

In this special episode of Modern Love, celebrating the 20th anniversary of the beloved New York Times column, host Anna Martin welcomes actor Peter Gallagher for an intimate conversation about love, marriage, and enduring relationships. Known for his versatile roles—from portraying flawed characters in the late '80s and '90s films like Sex, Lies, and Videotape and American Beauty to the beloved Sandy Cohen in The O.C.—Peter Gallagher shares personal anecdotes and profound insights into maintaining a long-lasting marriage.

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Celebrating 41 Years of Marriage

Anna Martin introduces Peter Gallagher by highlighting his evolution from playing scheming characters to embodying the role of a devoted husband and father. She notes, “It's just so clear he really loves his family” ([02:53]).

Peter Gallagher humorously acknowledges the milestone, saying, “God, it sounds so embarrassing when you're in show business. But, yes, it's true” ([03:07]). He reflects on the rarity and fragility of long-term marriages, emphasizing that celebrating such anniversaries publicly can be “dangerous” as it might inadvertently lead to “six months later, they're on the rocks” ([03:31]).

When asked for marriage advice, Peter delivers a straightforward response: “Don't get divorced” ([04:16]). He elaborates that sustaining a marriage involves embracing uncertainty and trusting one’s instincts, stating, “There's very little certainty about anything in life... hope you're going in the right direction” ([04:22]).

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Meeting Paula: A Love Story

Anna delves into Peter’s personal love story, recalling how he met his wife, Paula Harwood, during their freshman year at Tufts University. Peter recounts their first encounter on a stairwell, describing Paula’s vibrant style and his immediate, albeit unspoken, attraction:

“She was in this spectacular hair and this tight turtleneck thing and a disco belt and tight corduroy bell bottoms and platform shoes... And I looked like, you know, he had just left 8th grade gym class or something like that.” ([05:24])

Despite the initial lack of interaction, Peter spent years trying to connect with Paula, often visiting the cafeteria to make her laugh—a trait that remains a cornerstone of their relationship ([07:00]). Their marriage proposal was unconventional, occurring during a torrential rainstorm en route to a friend’s wedding. Peter narrates the spontaneous and heartfelt moment:

“She said, you can ask my parents. Oh, well, yeah. No. And I did. And then I wrote her dad a long letter about how I would take care of her, and he didn't have to worry. And we got married.” ([08:14])

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Reading the Essay: "Failing in Marriage Does Not Mean Failing at Marriage"

Peter reads Joe Blair’s essay, which poignantly explores the complexities of sustaining a marriage through trials and tribulations. The essay narrates Joe’s experiences of temporary separations, conflicts, and the enduring love that ultimately reunites him with his wife, Deb. Themes of forgiveness, self-love, and unwavering commitment resonate deeply throughout the piece.

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Reflections and Insights

After the essay, Peter shares his reflections, drawing parallels between Joe’s experiences and his own marriage. He emphasizes:

“There's a power and a truth to this and a humanness to this. I feel like I was with Joe where he was and the places he described so well, but it was sympathetic with where I was inside about how I feel about Paula, my wife.” ([21:34])

Peter discusses the importance of self-forgiveness as a foundation for loving others. He recounts a pivotal moment when he considered ending his relationship with Paula but ultimately recognized that his issues were personal and not tied to her:

“You will find it. It's your issue. An issue that you will have regardless of who you're with.” ([26:58])

This realization took decades to internalize, underscoring the long-term commitment necessary for a successful marriage.

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Advice on Maintaining a Successful Marriage

When asked about making a marriage last, Peter reiterates the simplicity and depth of his earlier advice:

“Don't get divorced.” ([04:16])

He elaborates that sustaining a marriage requires embracing the uncertainties and continuously listening to one’s inner voice. Peter likens marriage to a vibrant, ever-evolving garden that needs care and attention rather than a static entity.

Redefining Marriage

Turning back to Joe Blair’s essay, Anna highlights Joe’s redefinition of marriage—not as a transactional relationship but as an ongoing journey of self-love and mutual support. Peter concurs, explaining that loving oneself is essential for genuinely loving another:

“I think it begins with forgiveness. I think you have to begin to forgive yourself...” ([25:56])

He shares a personal anecdote about how his mother advised him to work on his own issues before seeking to change a partner, a lesson he embraced decades later to reinforce his marriage with Paula.

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What Success Looks Like

When prompted to describe a successful marriage, Peter shares a heartfelt vision:

“We woke up on this beautiful day in this wonderful city and we found just about everything funny. And she laughed. She had a lightness. I just felt very lucky.” ([29:41])

This encapsulates a relationship filled with joy, mutual respect, and gratitude—qualities that have sustained Peter and Paula for over four decades.

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Conclusion

As the episode wraps up, Peter humorously clarifies the significance of the date, confirming the authenticity of their 41st anniversary celebration. Anna acknowledges the depth of their conversation, expressing gratitude for Peter’s openness and wisdom.

“I was kidding about today being our wedding anniversary. No, I'm serious. It's real. It's real.” ([30:11])

The episode concludes with Anna thanking Peter and Teasing future episodes, celebrating Modern Love’s enduring legacy of sharing real-life love stories.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Peter Gallagher: “Don't get divorced.” ([04:16])
• Peter Gallagher: “There's very little certainty about anything in life... hope you're going in the right direction.” ([04:22])
• Peter Gallagher: “She was way, way, way, way cooler than I still... it was just powerful.” ([06:24])
• Joe Blair’s Essay Read by Peter Gallagher: “Failing in marriage does not mean failing at marriage... Still alone, waiting, and still in love.” ([10:46] – [21:34])
• Peter Gallagher: “I think you have to begin to forgive yourself...” ([25:56])
• Peter Gallagher: “We woke up on this beautiful day in this wonderful city and we found just about everything funny. And she laughed. She had a lightness. I just felt very lucky.” ([29:41])

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Modern Love offers a profound exploration of what it takes to sustain a loving marriage over decades. Through Peter Gallagher’s candid storytelling and his reflections on Joe Blair’s essay, listeners gain valuable insights into the resilience, forgiveness, and unwavering commitment required to nurture a lifelong partnership. Whether you’re navigating your own relationship challenges or seeking inspiration for enduring love, this episode provides both heartfelt narratives and practical wisdom.

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Subscribe and Listen:
Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore a wide range of topics by subscribing at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

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This summary is intended for informational purposes and reflects the content of the Modern Love podcast episode featuring Peter Gallagher.

Transcript

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[Anna Martin]

Hey there, it's Anna. The episode you're about to hear is part of a special series celebrating the 20th anniversary of the Modern Love column. This originally aired in the spring of 2024. We hope you enjoy and happy listening. Love now.

[Peter Gallagher]

And did you fall in love? Love stronger than anything. You feel in love with love. And I love you more than anything. There's to.

[Anna Martin]

From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love. Recently on the show, We've been celebrating 20 years of the Modern Love column, asking some of our favorite people to read essays that they connect to personally. Today we're closing out our season with actor Peter Gallagher. Peter got famous mostly playing a particular kind of skeezy, cheating, lying men. That was back in the late 80s, early 90s in movies like Sex, Lies and Videotape and American Beauty. But if you missed that chapter of Peter's career, you might associate him with a totally different kind of character. To many younger fans, he's Sandy Cohen, the loving, devoted dad and husband on the TV show the O.C. and now, having met Peter myself, I am very happy to report that Peter is way more like Sandy than his other roles. It's just so clear he really loves his family. He showed me his phone background when he came into the studio. It's a photo of his wife, Paula Harwood, from when they first met. And if you look him up, his Instagram is a total dad Instagram, full of long captions, bragging about his kids and cute selfies with Paula. And it just so happened that the very day Peter and I spoke was his and Paula's 41st wedding anniversary. So today, Peter reads the essay Failing in Marriage does not mean Failing at Marriage by Joe Blair. And as I talked to Peter about his own relationship, I started to understand what's kept it going for so long. Peter Gallagher, welcome to Modern Love. Or should I say, welcome back to Modern Love.

[Peter Gallagher]

Well, thank you very much, Anna.

[Anna Martin]

It is a total pleasure to have you here. You read an essay for us back in 2017. Now you're here again. And, Peter, I heard that today, this very day we're Talking is your 41st wedding anniversary.

[Peter Gallagher]

God, it sounds so embarrassing when you're in show business. But, yes, it's true.

[Anna Martin]

I've read in interviews where you say that it's embarrassing to be together for 41 years, but tell me what you mean by that.

[Peter Gallagher]

Just that it's not something you hear every day, and it's not something I ever really am interested in promoting because I always feel like the people say, oh, you know, how long we've been married, and then they do it in the press, and then six months later, they're on the rocks.

[Anna Martin]

But you don't want to jinx it, is what you're saying.

[Peter Gallagher]

Well, I've not jinxed it. It's just a. I do think it's dangerous to, like, promote it or talk about it. It's not immutable. It's a living.

[Anna Martin]

Oh, I see what you're saying.

[Peter Gallagher]

Something that needs to be. It's like. It's a garden.

[Anna Martin]

I love that. Well, congratulations again.

[Peter Gallagher]

Thank you.

[Anna Martin]

Tell me what it. 41 years. What comes to mind when you think of 41 years?

[Peter Gallagher]

Holy shit. It's just astounding, really, because I don't think either of us feel substantially different or changed. Of course, we probably are. And I feel very lucky about it. Feel very lucky about it.

[Anna Martin]

Do you have any advice for people who are hoping to make it that long in their marriage?

[Peter Gallagher]

Don't get divorced.

[Anna Martin]

There you go. Straightforward.

[Peter Gallagher]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

Anything else?

[Peter Gallagher]

Good luck. Well, the fact is, it's. You know, I find there's very little certainty about anything in life. So much of life, including love and work and the choices you make is built more on suspicion than certainty. And it's being able to listen to those subterranean streams that are talking to you, and you kind of hope you're going in the right direction, but there's very little certainty.

[Anna Martin]

I think picking up on the signs. The signs that this is something worth holding on to.

[Peter Gallagher]

Yes. And being willing to cope and accept the uncertainty of it anyway.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah, I like what you're saying. Listening to the subterranean streams, as you call them, trusting your gut. It's making me think of a story I heard about how you met your wife, Paula. You met her your first week of college at Tufts University on a stairwell.

[Peter Gallagher]

You've been doing research.

[Anna Martin]

Well, there you go. You gotta do it for the day.

[Peter Gallagher]

Oh, my God. This is the New York Times building. Of course, you have been.

[Anna Martin]

Can you tell me A bit about that story. I love that image. Meeting on the stairwell. Tell me how you first saw her.

[Peter Gallagher]

It was our first week of freshman year in college.

[Anna Martin]

And how old were you? 18.

[Peter Gallagher]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

Wow.

[Peter Gallagher]

Yeah. Oh, wow. That means we've. Whoa. We've known each other for a very long time. I think it was September 13th.

[Anna Martin]

Wow.

[Peter Gallagher]

We think that it was September 13th.

[Anna Martin]

Okay.

[Peter Gallagher]

It was at Bush hall at Tufts University. And I was going up the stairs to see a girl, and she was coming down the stairs to see a boy, and no words were exchanged. And I don't remember anything about anything, but I remember almost every moment of that. And we just sort of, you know, glided by each other. She was in this spectacular hair and this tight turtleneck thing and a disco belt and tight corduroy bell bottoms and platform shoes.

[Anna Martin]

Okay. Gorgeous.

[Peter Gallagher]

And I looked like, you know, he had just left 8th grade gym class or something like that. Yeah. She was way, way, way, way, way cooler than I still. And. And it was just powerful. And I spent the next seven years trying to figure out how I could go out with her.

[Anna Martin]

I was going to say, sue, you were both going to see other dates. Let's say you clearly remember what she was wearing. You remember. Tell me a little bit more about that feeling that you remember. Was it like a. I've known you before, even though I don't. What was that feeling for you?

[Peter Gallagher]

I was just kind of surprised at the feeling. I had never really felt anything like that. I found her in this freshman yearbook, and I would look at her picture, and I think, wow as being someone unattainable, you know, as wow. And, yeah, it was weird.

[Anna Martin]

When was the first time you talked to her? Do you remember that?

[Peter Gallagher]

Probably a few years later. No, I was pretty dweeby. Aw. No. What I did was I would. Well, regardless of my class schedule, I would manage to be in the cafeteria for lunch when she was.

[Anna Martin]

Aw.

[Peter Gallagher]

And so I would make her laugh. And frankly, that's still, like, a huge component of our relationship.

[Anna Martin]

Was there a. I don't know, like, how far into the relationship did you think to yourself, like, I want to marry this person? Was there a moment?

[Peter Gallagher]

We were driving up to Boston to see a friend of hers who's the first person I ever knew who was getting married that was our age. And it was a torrential rainstorm. It was torrential. It was. Sheets of water were coming out of the windshield, and so on and so forth. And we were talking about going up to this wedding, and then. And this is not a moment I'M proud of. But it was true. I started seeing. So, wow. Like mar. Well, yeah. Rhonda's getting married. Whoa, whoa. Hey, could, you know, that's something that a lot of people do, maybe. Could you ever imagine that kind of thing, doing something like that, you know, with, you know, somebody like me or something like that? Meanwhile, we're driving in this torrential rain, right? And as I'm saying this, she says, what are you asking me? Well, you know, I'm asking, are you asking me to marry you? Whoa, whoa. Well, it sort of seems that way. And she said, you can ask my parents. Oh, well, yeah. No. And I did. And then I wrote her dad a long letter about how I would take care of her, and he didn't have to worry. And we got married.

[Anna Martin]

And here you are now, Peter, 41 years later. Okay, so the Modern Love essay you chose to read today is about a marriage that lasts, but not without some serious hurdles along the way. It's written by Jo Blair, and it's called Failing in Marriage Does Not Mean Failing at Marriage. Peter, what did you see in this essay that drew you to it?

[Peter Gallagher]

I felt like they loved each other. And regardless of the ways in which Joe may have felt, he failed in his marriage. I think we all do to some extent. It might be more dramatic or less dramatic, but there's always that sense of what you're not getting or what you're not giving or what you should be getting or what you should be giving. And ultimately, I think it has very little to do with love or marriage. I think you hope to get to a place where you sort of embrace the whole person. Not what they've done for me lately or what they haven't, but start to appreciate with some gratitude the fact that they occupy such an important part of your life and you theirs and somebody you can trust.

[Anna Martin]

Mm. What a beautiful way to lead us into this essay. Why don't you take it away for us? Whenever you're ready.

[Peter Gallagher]

Failing in marriage does not mean failing at marriage. By Joe Blair alone one evening in early spring, seated on a green park bench beside the Charles river in Cambridge, Mass. I waited for Deb. The sun was setting and the temperature falling, and I was wearing my softball jersey and knickers and wishing I had remembered to bring my thick flannel shirt. Now, decades later, at my home in Iowa, I search for that bench on Google Maps. Here it is, Riverbend Park. Here's the bridge, the John W. Weeks Bridge. Here's our bench, the bridge arches, the still water it makes my body ache to see it again, the place where we were young. We had agreed to meet there in that ratty little park. I waited for her and waited. I imagined her getting off work at Legal Seafoods at the Copley Plaza, cashing out, boarding the bus, walking along the path approaching. I imagine someone watching us as she arrived. Would they think we were madly in love? Mistake is for Harvard students, people with illustrious futures. The moon was brightening, the sun a slur of color in the west. I was cold, my thick flannel shirt at home in my closet. I'd returned to college at 26, after serving my apprenticeship in the refrigeration trade. I first noticed her in my Selected Authors class. On the first day, the professor asked if anyone could give him an Emerson quote, and she, blushing, raised her hand. Three months later, I asked her to marry me. She said yes. We shared my tiny, overheated Cambridge apartment and fell into a nightly bar crawl routine, from the Plow and Stars to the Cellar to Drumlins, the Can Tab. After the first three rounds, I would accuse her of being in love with her cigarettes, and she would accuse me of not being truly in love with her. And I would swear on the Bible how I loved her with the intensity of 10 suns while holding up my hand to order another round. We knew we needed to end this childish routine. We imagined a new town unsullied by the likes of us, someplace clean and innocent. After less than a year of squirreling away cash in a Mason jar atop the refrigerator, we allowed the lease to expire, moved our furniture, a futon, and a lamp to the curb, paid our parking tickets, climbed on my motorcycle, and, with no ultimate destination in mind, left town. We had enough cash left by the time we rolled into Iowa to run a small brick house adjacent to a hog farrowing pen on the rolling Iowa cornfields. Soon we found work and started a family. By the time Deb kicked me out for the first time, she had already given birth to our first two children. I moved into a duplex on East Washington in Iowa City. The inside of the place reminded me of a rustic hunting lodge. The shiplap walls and ceilings were stained dark brown. I remember sliding into my Coleman sleeping bag that first night, settling myself on my camping mat and thinking, ah, yes, this is how I'm meant to be alone. We reunited after a month or two. Then we had the twins. Saturday nights we would walk down to George's, where three beers in, Deb would once again accuse me of not loving her enough, and I Would do my best to drum up the old enthusiasm, but I wasn't fooling either of us. Over the 32 years of our marriage, she has kicked me out five times. One time I sublet a basement apartment across the street from a small park with a basketball court, which was a big plus. The basement was crawling with little white worms which when they died, curled up like pill bugs. Another time I moved into Le Chateau, a low rent apartment complex. There was an outdoor pool on the property, but it wasn't open when I lived there. I don't think it had been open for a long time, hence the black mud and leaves at the bottom. There was a laundry room, which was my favorite room in the place. A single coin operated washing machine and a single dryer. It was always warm and brightly lit and there was a metal folding chair and the air always smelled clean. The Last time the 6th deb didn't kick me out, I left. Weary of our accusation and outrage routine, I rented another duplex in a quiet neighborhood on the south side of Iowa City. I shared the place with little red ants. They really liked the sponge I used to clean my dishes. I would boil water and soak my sponge in it to kill them, then dump the floaters down the drain. I didn't do anything in this apartment, didn't cook, read or listen to music. If I got home from work early, I would go to bed. If I got home late, I would go to bed. I would lie down under my blue and white duck blanket, turn on my side and think, yes, this is how I'm meant to be. According to the landlord, the young woman who lived there before me had once dated the young man who lived across the street with his parents. After she broke it off, the young man continued texting her. He even knocked on her door at odd hours. When the young woman moved out, I moved in. Sometimes when it was dark, I would look through my front window at that house and think about the young man. I would wonder how one is supposed to find love, where to look, how to begin. On weekend mornings I took walks around the neighborhood. It was still cool enough to need a hat and a jacket. One of my neighbors had erected a book exchange. I chose a collection of Kafka short stories and then later that day sat on my front cinder block steps and began reading it. But I kept thinking of Deb. I kept thinking how she would like this quiet working class neighborhood with the book exchange and the red ants and the sycamore movie theater close enough to walk and no traffic, sound and Big deciduous trees and rickety front steps and cool air and warm sun. I called her and asked her if she wanted to stop over for coffee. We sat at my little kitchen table and drank our coffee. She said she liked my little house. She liked my rickety front steps. I have always thought of Deb wherever I am, whomever I am with. Whenever I experience something good, I want her to experience the same thing. I can't stand to watch a good movie without her. I'll walk out after half an hour if I can't turn to her in the dark and whisper, isn't this great? I can't ride my motorcycle up into the Rocky Mountains. I can't enter a small diner with worn pine floorboards and an antique curved glass pie case with slices of banana cream inside. I can't take a flight without wishing she were occupying the seat beside me. I think we have the wrong idea about marriage. It's not like running a business where there are recordable credits and debits. Or buying a house where you pay your mortgage or lose it. Or owning a pet where, in return for companionship, you are obligated to feed them and take them for walks and clean up after them. It's more like learning after a thousand hangovers to stop drinking so much. Or learning after often being false, to be true just once in the hope that you can continue to be true. Or learning, after habitually hating yourself to love yourself just once in the hope that you can continue to love yourself. And then learning through loving yourself to love someone else. I will always love Deb, Even when she hates me. Even when I hate her. Not because she's especially forgiving or pretty or pleasant to be with or well read or spiritual. Not because she may or may not be any of those things. Loving her isn't transactional. I love her because I can't help it. There's something in her that makes me weak. Something vulnerable and unconquerable. Something fleeting and unmoving. After a few months in the house with the rickety steps, I move back in with Deb soon enough. Now I'll be alone, on the edge of sleep. Just as I am alone on the edge of all things. It's how I am. It may be how we all are. Still alone, waiting, and still in love.

[Anna Martin]

Peter, thank you. What came up for you as you read this?

[Peter Gallagher]

I think it's true. There's a power and a truth to this and a humanness to this. I feel like I was with Joe where he was and the places he described so well, but it was sympathetic with where I was inside about how I feel about Paula, my wife.

[Anna Martin]

More from Peter Gallagher after the break.

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[Anna Martin]

Peter, you just read the Modern Love essay Failing in Marriage Does Not Mean Failing at Marriage by Jo Blair and I want to hone in on something Joe Blair writes about his wife. He says, I love her because I can't help it. Have you experienced that with your wife, Paula, or have you seen that in other areas of your life?

[Peter Gallagher]

I experience it all the time. I remember when my when I was growing up, I was really trying to encourage my father and my mother to split up because it would just be so much quieter and so much more peaceful. And dad, I'd spend some time with you, spend some time with Mom. It'd be fine. Then years later, probably 20 years later, I remember seeing my mother and father holding hands, walking, holding hands and really meaning it. And I thought, you know, kids don't know everything. And always, again, you know, encouraged me to believe that there was more to life, to love to them, to us, than met the eye. And you know, in those halcyon moments when you can abandon the scorekeeping and abandon the transactions and begin to see just how lucky you are to be with this whole complete, complicated person. Good things seem to happen then.

[Anna Martin]

I mean, I love that story, seeing them holding hands and realizing what you didn't know when you were a kid, what you didn't understand. But perhaps also another lesson is sticking it out. Is that. Does that feel like it?

[Peter Gallagher]

Oh yeah, that's I guess what I yes, thank you, that's what I felt when I saw them was that there is the potential for some grace. I love that by virtue of just sticking it out, sticking together, you know.

[Anna Martin]

To return to Joe Blair's essay, I think what jumps out to me is how, and we've talked about this a bit, but how he redefines what a marriage is. He says it's not like a business to maintain. It's not like caring for a pet, which we hope not. It's actually about learning to love yourself so you can more fully love the other person. Can I ask you, why do you think that is? What is it about loving ourselves that allows us to love other people?

[Peter Gallagher]

Well, I think it begins with forgiveness. I think you have to begin to forgive yourself because it can be like being a drunk, you know, the desire for some kind of self abnegation or constant expression of disdain against oneself. And it takes courage to see things differently and to try to see things differently and believe it. But I think that exercising that muscle of forgiving yourself for whatever imagined sins and crimes you've committed against humanity or yourself, it sheds enough light for you to be able to be generous and to see what's there, not what's not there.

[Anna Martin]

Can you think of an example in your own life where loving yourself was key to being able to love your wife?

[Peter Gallagher]

I just had a funny. This is. I don't know if it's related, but I just flashed on this where I broke up with Paula once. I told my mom.

[Anna Martin]

When you were dating her?

[Peter Gallagher]

Yeah, we were dating and I didn't bring many people to my house when I was growing up ever. But I brought Paula and I told my mother, I said, yeah, I just breaking up with her. You go back to her and apologize. She is a wonderful young woman and any problem you're going to be having with her, you will be having with anyone because they're your problems. So you be damn sure that you figured out what's going on with you before you start changing partners. Like socks. I don't think she said socks, but she said that was the gist of it. You know, before you throw this relationship away, you investigate what it is that's really bugging you. And I bet you'll find it. It's your issue. An issue that you will have regardless of who you're with. And I thought, okay.

[Anna Martin]

She says the most wise thing as a son. You're like, okay, mom, yeah, but did you follow her advice? Did you look inwards and repair things?

[Peter Gallagher]

But it took me 30, 35 years. I didn't want to give my mother the satisfaction while she was alive of doing it.

[Anna Martin]

Of course, you know, it's interesting. We're talking about the kind of ups and downs of a marriage and even the time leading up to marriage. And certainly Joe writes about all of the ups and downs he's been through in his relationship. And despite that, the word divorce never comes up in this essay, which is very interesting, I guess. I wonder, like, it comes down to Joe, throughout this essay is sort of working out whether or not his relationship is working right, whether or not to keep going, to stay committed, or whether or not to call it. And I guess, I wonder. I mean, I'm asking you for a lot of advice. I'm not even married. But I guess I am turning to you as someone who's been married now for 41 years. Like, how do you make that call? How do you know if something is working? How do you know whether to keep fighting for something?

[Peter Gallagher]

That's what I mean about suspicion. There's very little certainty. It's like faith. It's like willing to accept how little you might know and trying to pay attention to your partner in a more inclusive view.

[Anna Martin]

Can I ask, what does a successful marriage look like for you and Paula?

[Peter Gallagher]

Well, we woke up on this beautiful day in this wonderful city and we found just about everything funny. And she laughed. She had a lightness. I just felt very lucky.

[Anna Martin]

Peter, thank you so much for today.

[Peter Gallagher]

Oh, thank you, Hannah. It was a lot of fun.

[Anna Martin]

And I cannot believe that we scheduled it on your wedding anniversary. That is really.

[Peter Gallagher]

I was kidding about today being our wedding anniversary.

[Anna Martin]

Are you serious?

[Peter Gallagher]

No, I'm serious.

[Anna Martin]

Oh, my God. Don't scare me. We'll get the research team on this. We'll get our fact checker.

[Peter Gallagher]

It's real. It's real.

[Anna Martin]

It's real. That's it for this season of Modern Love. Thank you so much for listening. We'll be back this fall with more love stories. Modern Love is produced by Christina Josa, Riva Goldberg, Davis Land and Emily Lang. It's edited by our executive producer, Jen Poyant. Riva Goldberg and Davis Land. The Modern Love theme music is by Dan Powell. Original music by dan Powell, Pat McCusker and Rowan Nemisto. This episode was mixed by Daniel Ramirez. Our show was recorded by Maddie Masiello and Nick Pittman. Digital production by Mahima Choblani and Nell Galogli. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones. Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.

[Peter Gallagher]

N.