Reneé Rapp on Blurring the Line Between Bestie and Lover

Summary

Modern Love Podcast Summary: "Reneé Rapp on Blurring the Line Between Bestie and Lover"

Episode Release Date: July 23, 2025
Host: Anna Martin
Guest: Reneé Rapp, actress and singer
Podcast Series: Modern Love by The New York Times

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Introduction

In this heartfelt episode of Modern Love, host Anna Martin welcomes renowned actress and singer Reneé Rapp. Best known for her portrayal of Regina George in the Broadway musical Mean Girls and its movie adaptation, Rapp delves deep into the intricacies of friendship and love, particularly within the queer community. The conversation is enriched with personal anecdotes, musical insights, and a poignant reading of a Modern Love essay.

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Reneé Rapp’s Musical Journey and Friendships

Rapp begins by discussing her two albums, Snow Angel and Bite Me. While Snow Angel explores the depths of heartbreak and unreciprocated love, Bite Me shifts focus to the complexities of both romantic and platonic relationships. She emphasizes the importance of friendships, describing them as emotionally significant as romantic partnerships.

Notable Quote:

Reneé Rapp [01:56]: "Her first album, Snow Angel, looked at the intensity of heartbreak. [...] In her new album, Bite Me, Renee shows just how seriously she takes all her relationships, not just the romantic ones."

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Influence of Girl Groups on Female Friendships

Anna and Reneé engage in a nostalgic conversation about iconic girl groups like Destiny’s Child, Pussycat Dolls, and Spice Girls. Contrary to popular belief that such groups promote catty behavior, Rapp shares her perspective that these idols were likely genuine friends behind the scenes.

Notable Quote:

Reneé Rapp [04:43]: "I don't know. The way that it was always presented to me was like, oh, girl groups are so catty. [...] But the only thing I ever really really heard conversations about were people being like, oh, girls are so hard to work with."

Rapp passionately defends female friendships, stating that her own relationships with women are deeply supportive and free from unnecessary drama.

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Exploring Modern Love Essay: "This Is What Happens When Friends Fall in Love"

Rapp introduces the essay by Sammy Sasse titled "This Is What Happens When Friends Fall in Love." The essay narrates the emotional turmoil of transitioning a deep friendship into a romantic relationship, highlighting the challenges and vulnerabilities involved.

Reading Excerpt:

Reneé Rapp [06:02]: "We met working on a TV show, like, that is literally how we met."
Anna Martin [07:00]: "So clearly you don't feel this way anymore. It seems like."

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Personal Reflections and Emotional Insights

After reading the essay, Rapp shares her own experiences with intense friendships, particularly within the queer community. She discusses the blurred lines between platonic and romantic feelings, and the profound emotional connections that often accompany queer friendships.

Notable Quote:

Reneé Rapp [26:38]: "Every single song on my album has to do with, like, the deep homoerotica of friendships. [...] I value my friendships in the same way I value my partner."

Rapp poignantly addresses the pain of unreciprocated romantic feelings within a friendship, emphasizing that such experiences can be as devastating as romantic breakups.

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Navigating Friendship Dynamics

The conversation shifts to practical aspects of maintaining deep friendships. Rapp recounts moments of vulnerability with her best friend, Aaliyah, and the challenges of communicating emotional needs without disrupting the friendship's balance.

Notable Quote:

Reneé Rapp [31:28]: "You haven't done anything wrong. You and her have such a tight relationship. You just can like call her, by the way, and be like, I love you, I miss you."

Rapp highlights the importance of open communication and the courage it takes to express deeper emotional needs within friendships.

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Community and Support within Friend Groups

Rapp describes her vibrant and supportive friend group, emphasizing the sense of safety and acceptance they provide. She shares memorable moments where friends express their love and support in heartfelt and genuine ways, reinforcing the strength of their bonds.

Notable Quote:

Reneé Rapp [34:10]: "She's being so cute. That's a circular thing. You can be who you are, and whoever you are, that's who you are underneath."

These interactions showcase the profound intimacy and unconditional support that define her friendships, particularly within the queer community.

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Conclusion: Embracing the Uncertainty of Relationships

As the episode wraps up, Anna and Rapp reflect on the essay's conclusion, which speaks to the uncertainty and evolving nature of friendships that flirt with romantic boundaries. Rapp acknowledges that while friendships inevitably change, the key lies in understanding one's needs and maintaining open lines of communication.

Notable Quote:

Anna Martin [34:31]: "Neither of us know how to do this."
Reneé Rapp [35:08]: "I don't think I have a blueprint. But I do know exactly what I want and what I need."

Rapp concludes with an empowering message about embracing change and actively shaping the dynamics of her relationships to ensure they remain fulfilling and authentic.

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Final Thoughts

Reneé Rapp's episode on Modern Love offers a deep dive into the complexities of queer friendships and the delicate balance between platonic love and romantic desire. Through personal anecdotes, musical reflections, and the poignant essay reading, Rapp eloquently captures the emotional turbulence and profound connections that define her relationships, providing listeners with both empathy and insight into the nuanced world of love and friendship.

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Produced by: Emily Lang
Edited by: Davis Land and Lynn Levy
Mixed by: Daniel Ramirez
Special Thanks to: Mihima Chablani, Jeffrey Miranda, Kathleen O'Brien

Subscribe to Modern Love on nytimes.com/podcasts, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Download the New York Times Audio app for full access.

Transcript

[Anna Martin]

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[Renee Rapp]

Love now and did you fall in love last fella? Love Love is stronger than anything you love for the love love and I love you more than anything there's to love love.

[Anna Martin]

From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love. Every week we bring you stories about love, lust, heartbreak, all the messiness of human relationships. Today on the show, Ann actor and singer Renee Rapp. Renee is most known for her role in the recent Tina Fey produced musical Mean Girls on Broadway. And in the movie version, Renee played Regina George, queen of the mean girls at school known as the Plastics.

[Renee Rapp]

Oh my God, you are literally being so annoying.

[Anna Martin]

You know the Plastics, they're rude, they're hot, they're well dressed, and above all else, they are so much cooler than you.

[Renee Rapp]

So we never really do this, but you're invited to eat lunch with us for the rest of the week. Oh, that's okay. On Wednesdays, we wear pink.

[Anna Martin]

In real life, though, Renee is open, she's warm, she's charmingly chaotic, and she is extremely candid. And her emotions are also on full display in her music.

[Renee Rapp]

How do make me hate Boston? It's not his fault that you don't love me.

[Anna Martin]

Her first album, Snow angel, looked at the intensity of heartbreak. Like loving someone so much you end up writing off an entire city because they don't love you back. And that's where they live. In her new album, Bite Me, Renee shows just how seriously she takes all her relationships, not just the romantic ones. She explores the intimacy and the pain that also exists in friendships. These might be platonic connections, she seems to say, but they're no less worthy of an emotional ballad.

[Renee Rapp]

Aaliyah said, be careful, girl. You don't really know her.

[Anna Martin]

It makes sense, then, that she chose to read the Modern Love essay. This is what happens when When Friends Fall in Love by Sammy Sasse. Like Renee, the author of this essay has had to confront what it actually takes to sustain love in a friendship. Renee Rapper, welcome to Modern Love.

[Renee Rapp]

Thank you.

[Anna Martin]

Okay, we are relatively close in age. You're a 2000s baby? Correct.

[Renee Rapp]

Yeah, yeah.

[Anna Martin]

I'm a 90s baby.

[Renee Rapp]

Oh, perfect. Okay, okay.

[Anna Martin]

So we can relate, I think, on a lot of things. Cultural influences. I know you're a huge Beyonce fan.

[Renee Rapp]

Massively so.

[Anna Martin]

You love Beyonce. But we also got to experience what came before, which is, of course, Destiny's Child. Are you also a Destiny's Child fan?

[Renee Rapp]

I mean, absolutely, Absolutely.

[Anna Martin]

Like, how massive?

[Renee Rapp]

It's kind of like probably one of the most, like, intimidating groups of people ever put together.

[Anna Martin]

I agree with you.

[Renee Rapp]

It's really crazy.

[Anna Martin]

What's your fave track?

[Renee Rapp]

I don't even know. It's hard to choose, to be honest. Obviously. I think. I mean, their music is super timeless. But my favorite thing, even more so than their music, is just their personalities. I've been watching all of their old MTV crib stuff recently.

[Anna Martin]

I don't think I've seen that.

[Renee Rapp]

You have to watch it. It's psycho. So funny and so pretty and so just like, I was, like, seeing, like, where they slept. Whether it's real or not, I love seeing where someone sleeps.

[Anna Martin]

So nice to see where someone sleeps.

[Renee Rapp]

I love it.

[Anna Martin]

I do feel like we grew up in a bit of the era of the girl group Destiny's Child. Pussycat dolls before us a bit. Spice Girls and Thug. Do you feel like these groups influenced your idea of what it means to be friends with particularly other girls?

[Renee Rapp]

I don't know. To be honest. The way that it was always presented to me was like, oh, girl groups are so catty. Oh, this is so, like, I never really, like, heard, you know, outside of going back and, like, looking at all their stuff now, which I'm sure they were, like, incredible friends to each other. Cause they're still friends to this day. But the only thing I ever really, like, heard conversations about were people being like, oh, girls are so hard to work with.

[Anna Martin]

You're rolling your eyes for the audio version of this conversation. So clearly you don't feel this way anymore. It seems like. No.

[Renee Rapp]

All my best friends are like, girls. And like non men. We're all so tight. I'm not like, constantly trying to have the mic. Yeah. I'm like, can we all just. Let's just. Let's just fucking relax. Like, that was just such a tired, tired take. But, like, it was always the thing of, like, oh, girl groups are so hard.

[Anna Martin]

Totally.

[Renee Rapp]

Friendships with women are so hard.

[Anna Martin]

The drama of it all. Like, tell me more about. So you're here to read a modern love essay that. That really, at its core, is about friendships. Super close Friendships. And you're teeing this up for us? Tell me about in some specific ways about the friendships in your life. So you've spoken about your best friend.

[Renee Rapp]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

Aaliyah, do you want to focus there? Like, how did you two meet? What's the story there?

[Renee Rapp]

I mean, we met working on a TV show. Like, that is literally how we met.

[Anna Martin]

For those who don't know which TV.

[Renee Rapp]

Show it was a Sex Lives of College Girls. We met working on that TV show, and we were, like, fast friends because we had so many of the same friends from doing musical theater. And she went to college at Michigan, which is, like, one of the most, like, prestigious musical theater schools. And I had friends that had gone there who I randomly had grown up with. So we had, like, all of this connective tissue that we just, like, had shit to talk about immediately. And also, I think what, like, really bonded us together was we were both so deeply scared. We were so deeply scared.

[Anna Martin]

Why?

[Renee Rapp]

Because we were just like, we're gonna, like, why are we here?

[Anna Martin]

Like, on set, like, on this project?

[Renee Rapp]

We were like, wait, what are we doing? Like, we felt like we just had to be, like, nervous all the time and, like, worried we were gonna lose our jobs. And I was like, what am I doing? Acting?

[Anna Martin]

So it was. I mean, this is such an overused kind of phrase, but it sounds like an imposter syndrome type that was like, absolutely. Okay.

[Renee Rapp]

Absolutely. And so when you're with someone who's on the same, like, there's an equal playing field, and they're also feeling that way, yet I feel like she has every right to be there and is so entitled to, like, be in that space. I'm like, wait, why the fuck do you think that about yourself? Do you.

[Anna Martin]

Is there a specific moment you can remember from those early days, like, beginning that project where you two helped each other through that fear?

[Renee Rapp]

I mean, every single day since I've known her, we sort of have always had this thing of, like, we'll just, like, look at each other, and we'll know exactly what the other person is thinking. And if, like, any bullshit happens, like, we could be across the room, and, like, she'll look at me. I'll look at her and be head to the side.

[Anna Martin]

You had a full conversation with all.

[Renee Rapp]

Conversation with all the eyes. Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

Talking about these, like, early days of your friendship when you're forming it. People often talk about first impressions when it comes to romantic partners. Like, when you saw her, what did you think? But I want to actually ask that about, like, what was Your first impression of Aaliyah, what struck you about her?

[Renee Rapp]

I was just like, she seems so sure of herself and she's so pretty. Like, I was like, wow. Like, I love. Not even in a shallow way. I love a pretty face. And when I say a pretty face, I do mean a pretty face, but I also mean, like, I love like a big smile. And she has, like the most beautiful smile and is just really sure of herself and is also really aware that there are things that are scaring her.

[Anna Martin]

Well, I was just gonna say having her as kind of a foil for that experience seems really of valuable.

[Renee Rapp]

Of course. It was like a mirror. It was a mirror. It was also like, I. You know, she had worked in her life and had, like, gone to school and like, done all of these things that like, I couldn't. Not only I, like, couldn't do, but I like what she went to, like, the best musical theater school ever. They're like, I didn't know how much you got.

[Anna Martin]

Because I totally.

[Renee Rapp]

I didn't get accepted to even pass my audition for that school.

[Anna Martin]

So I was like, she's incredible.

[Renee Rapp]

No, I did not get into, like, any school. So I was always like, holy shit. Like, if you've made it past this point, like, you had to work incredibly hard in ways that I can't even understand.

[Anna Martin]

There's such a beautiful thing too, with like, the admiration between friends. Like, to look up.

[Renee Rapp]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

To a friend. Can I ask you too? You have a song on your upcoming album. It's called that's so funny. And there's a lyric in it where you specifically referenced. Right. Aliyah. Yes. And I feel like, you know, we're used to people name dropping in songs about romantic love, but I think it's much rarer in songs about platonic love. Can you talk about that choice? Like, do you think friendship gets kind of short shrifted in music?

[Renee Rapp]

I think that. Okay, this is not. I was like, no, I don't wanna. Nah, I will. I think that when it comes to, like, pop music, right, so much of music is inspired by like, love and relationships or like hate, which is basically just like a cover up for the deep disappointment and love that you actually feel. Slash felt. So, you know, it's definitely a massive part of music. It will always be.

[Anna Martin]

It's romantic love, you mean?

[Renee Rapp]

Yeah, yeah, of course. It's the greatest thing in the world. But I also think, like, when you start to see, like, more just like queer people moving into, like mainstream pop music especially, you start to see, like, the different dynamics that are not in heteronormative relationships, even when it comes to friendships. Like, I think my friendships are so much deeper with my queer friends than I've ever had in spaces in my life that were more like, straight. And the girl that that's so funny about is absolutely straight. But there are things about that person that I was like, damn. Like, our friendship, what it was, went so much deeper than just some, oh, yeah, we're girls and we key. And, like, it's fine. Yeah, it was. It was much deeper. And Aaliyah kind of just like, was the number one witness to it and warned me so far in advance, like, hey, by the way, like, she's literally plotting on you.

[Anna Martin]

So let's just have you explain sort of the conceit of the song for people who maybe haven't heard it yet. Like, what's going on in this song.

[Renee Rapp]

Well, it's like. It's gotta be, like, one of my favorite songs.

[Anna Martin]

It's a great one.

[Renee Rapp]

Thanks. I love it so much. I basically. Situation had happened. I essentially just got so deeply, deeply screwed by someone who I had really brought close to me in my life and looked up to and felt like was like a big sister to me. And she kind of claimed to be that and took on that role. And I really, really appreciated it because I just thought the world of her. And then slowly but surely started to see things in me that were qualities that made her insecure. I think she got really. I assumed she got to a really miserable place in her life and decided that I was the root of all of her problems. And Aaliyah watched it happen and warned me, but I was like, it's all good. It's all good. It's all good. Until it was just, like, so not all good. And I was like, damn, this really actually did blow up.

[Anna Martin]

It is a really. When you lay it out like that, I'm like, whoa. This song has two extremely divergent pictures of what friendship or close relationship can be, right? One that's deeply toxic and corrosive and secretive, and one that's, like, Aliyah's, like, essentially how I'm reading it is, like, warning you, but then also, like, I'll be here for you even when this shit hits the fan. And so you really do see these, like, very different models of what a friend can be.

[Renee Rapp]

And it was also something that I was so mad and sad about for such a long time and, like, really was, like, all encompassing and derailed my life for a minute because the situation became so Dire. I was like, I don't sleep a night without thinking about this. It was crazy.

[Anna Martin]

Renee, that's really. That's really tough. I've seen stuff like that before.

[Renee Rapp]

Yeah, it was insane. It was so insane.

[Anna Martin]

And I want to be like, this relationship in this song with this person. That was a deep friendship. Was it a. Yeah, so it was like a. So really what you're talking too about is this remarkable pain of a friendship changing in ways you at first quite don't understand. And then, of course, this, like, deeply painful friend breakup, which is just. It can be equally, if not more, in my experience, as tragic as a romantic breakup.

[Renee Rapp]

Yeah. I mean, everyone has had something like that happen to them on some level. It doesn't have to be as extreme as what happened to me. I certainly hope not.

[Anna Martin]

No, I hope not.

[Renee Rapp]

But, like, yeah, you know, it's. It's common.

[Anna Martin]

It's common.

[Renee Rapp]

You know, friendships don't last forever, and that's okay. Some do, which is awesome. But a lot are like relationships and are temporary and important for the time that they're there.

[Anna Martin]

You wise, wise woman.

[Renee Rapp]

I've just been fucked over too many times, that's all. I just have seen so many therapists.

[Anna Martin]

You are talking about the intensity of queer friendships specifically. Yes. You're talking about relationships changing in ways that make the. Make the connection difficult to navigate. All of these are themes that are present in the essay you chose to read today.

[Renee Rapp]

Today is right, by the way. I've never loved anything that's ever happened more. Please don't edit that out. That was fucking stellar. That was amazing. Do you. That was literally amazing.

[Anna Martin]

Did I said to gay yet?

[Renee Rapp]

To gay. To gay.

[Anna Martin]

Okay, okay, okay. This essay, the essay you're gonna read today is by Sammy Sasse. It's called this is what Happens When Friends Fall in Love. Renee, you are making me need to hear you read this. Why don't we. Why don't you just go ahead? To gay. To gay when we come back. Today, Renee reads an essay about two queer friends trying to define the terms of their relationship. And it is messy work. Stay with us.

[C]

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[Renee Rapp]

This is what happens when friends fall in love. By Sammy Sass Meera was dropping me off and neither one of us wanted to say goodbye. In a July storm. We sat in our car, listening to the rain. I played with the red matte lipstick she keeps in her cup holder, open the mirror to put it on, and unscrew the top where I found a long black hair wound around the inside of the tube. Holding it up between us, I said, dude, you may be a femme, but you are a sloppy one for sure. She laughed hard, leaning forward and covering her mouth. Then she calmed, suddenly serious, and said, what if it's you? I wasn't sure what she meant. She said, what if we're here in five years and we're it for each other? Like, what if in five years we look at each other and realize it's time to date? I said, no. She said, like, what if in five years it's you and it's this friendship and maybe we date other people, but at the end of the day, it's you? I smiled, imagining two of us older than our mid-20s, still sitting below big trees and rainstorms, laughing and not wanting to get out of the car. She gazed ahead. I am so terrified of hurting you. I put down the lipstick and reached for her. Mira, you are the safest person I have ever left. She put her face in her hands and cried, and all I could see was her thick black hair, her jean jacket with the fierce love pin. That night was the first time Mira and I acknowledged just how much of our lives had molded around each other. Neither of us knew how to describe what we were. When someone asked if we were dating, I just said, we're in love. Mira smiled when she heard the story. She made her profile picture, the two of us laughing on a bench, and one day she said, it's the best when I show up to party and people ask me where you are. We spent evenings on my front porch reading articles aloud with titles such as Marriage Is Murder, the Future of Queer, and Against the Couple Form. We dreamed about what our lives could look like if we gave ourselves permission to be free from conventions. I was mortified at the thought of absorbing into a couple, and I knew it would be difficult, but I wanted to build a life of commitment, where friendships mattered as much as romantic partnership. She emailed me a tweet from someone that said, the best decisions I have ever made were made possible by my inability to invest in heterosexual narratives of love. The fact of being queer weirdly saved me from so much loneliness, even as it demographically made intimacy so much harder to find. I sent back a heart eye emoji and later parked below my apartment windows on an early winter evening. Mira put her arm around my shoulders and said, sammy, you are my epicenter. And for a while I was. Mira picked me up for work every morning, I made her lunch on Sundays, and we made a beeline for each other in crowded rooms. She became number one on my speed dial, and we talked every day. When I thought I had bed bugs, she was the one I called in a panic. She came over with an acupressure mat, a flashlight, and played wave sounds from her iPhone. I'm anxious, I said, crying on the floor. I know, she said as she stood above me. For the first time, I admitted just to myself in a whisper, how good it felt to rely on someone. Meera pried me open and slowly I trusted she would be there every time, solid. I started picturing my life with her, always in it, whatever shape our relationship took because we had insisted on the permission to let ourselves change. I expected the changes would be small and that she would be central. But then Mira told me about a woman she was going to date. This person wasn't like the cute queers Mira had dated during our friendship, all of whom were already dating someone else, were emotionally unavailable or not nearly astounding enough for her. This was someone Mira had an actual, genuine crush on. She told me, like a confession, that she wanted romantic partnership and that she might even want it to be primary, the central thing she builds her life around, and I wanted to shrivel that feeling inside until it atrophied and died. But I couldn't, so I strained to fit her vision of what she wanted. Well, maybe we should date, I said. Couldn't we make that work? Weren't we already in love and spending time together and talking every day? She shook her head and said, I don't want to kiss you, and I have to admit that sometimes I imagine her lying next to me and like a thought experiment, I pretend we're lovers. I picture us laughing and I brush her hair behind her ear. I hold her hand and count the rings she wears. I feel how small she is, only five feet and skinny, and I say, tell me everything about your day. She looks at me with bright eyes, but it stops there. I never kiss her. Just imagining it gives me a tight, bound feeling, and I know we're not the ones to do that with each other, so I was silent for a long time, and then said, the question for me, Mira, is in the event of an apocalypse, whose house are you running to? The tender part of me that had come to rely on her was screaming. I added in a terrified but certain voice, I am running to you. And then the woman who had pried me open, who had told me in the same car and under the same windows that I was her epicenter, stared through the windshield and said coldly, I don't believe in hierarchies. In the days afterward, I tried to talk myself out of feeling hurt. I convinced myself I was holding on too tightly, asking too much, being unreasonable. But the truth is, I wanted Mira to turn to me and hold back laughter while she said, of course I would run to you, as if it were the most obvious thing. People tell me, oh, this is normal, and this is what happens when friends fall in love. But I was completely unprepared. We were queer. We were supposed to refuse the primacy of romance and sex. At the least, we were supposed to run to each other in the apocalypse and invite whoever else needed to be there, including our lovers. And then all of us would wait together for the end times, dancing and buzzing each other's hair, eating ice cream and bursting with gratitude for our beautiful, improbable friendships. But Mira wasn't choosing me. Worse, I was going to have to watch her choose someone else. And worse still, I couldn't rail against her decision because we had promised to let each other change. I didn't have a book or a podcast or a movie that reflected my story back at me. I felt totally alone in a loss I had no words to describe, a loss not just of a person, but of a relationship and a life I so deeply wanted. I almost walked away, as if this all had been an experiment and a terrible mistake. But I couldn't. Underneath the hurt that she would choose someone else and the embarrassment of having come to rely on her, I didn't want to give up on radical friendship, and I didn't want to give up on Mira. I would have to put her down by saying she gave in to the thing we reviled. Or I put myself down by saying, my dreams are impossible, I expect too much. And none of that felt right. A few weeks after our apocalypse conversation, Mira and I went to a party together, and she cupped her hand around my ear. I put you as my emergency contact, she said, where I'd asked for a relationship. I wrote family in that moment, under dimmed lights. I got the same beaming feeling I get every time she chooses me. And I saw that she doesn't want to lose me either. But something had shifted, and I didn't smile this time. I was the one who sat rigid and stared ahead because it wasn't enough. I was quiet, wondering how it all fit together. And I realized, not with relief, but with clarity, neither of us know how to do this.

[Anna Martin]

We'll be right back.

[C]

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[Anna Martin]

Okay, Renee, what hit you about that essay you just read?

[Renee Rapp]

I think so much. So, so, so, so, so much actually. Okay. Every single song on my album has to do with, like, the deep homoerotica of friendships. Whether those turned romantic or were just Roman without physical intimacy. Because I'm very close with my friends. Like, I value my friendships in the same way I value my partner. Like, you are all so deeply important to me, and if I lost one of you, it would be a fucking intense loss. Intense loss. And obviously my girlfriend is like, that's my shorty forever. But, like, my friends are. Are romantic in their own way as well. So I felt that, like, this was just so, like, representative of how messy and difficult it is and how, like, becoming, like, aware of something. Okay, realize, realize, realize. But, like, becoming, like, becoming aware of, like, a situation with your friend that's, like, maybe not gonna turn out the way you want it to, or being the friend on the other end and being like, this is not gonna turn out the way you want it to, but love you is equally really difficult for both people and happens so often. And also, this is just, like, the story of, like, gay girls. This is like. This is everything that L Word was like, here's what's gonna happen, and you're fucking right. It's like. It just is so. It's just so, like. It's just, like, unreal.

[Anna Martin]

And you said it before, like, the messiness, the sort of blurring of boundaries that can occur specifically in a queer relationship. It's like that feeling, at least at the beginning of the essay, where you look at your friend and you're like, should we just date? You know what I mean? And it's kind of a joke, but it's kind of not, of course. Have you ever had that experience?

[Renee Rapp]

43 people in my friend group, in my immediate friend group.

[Anna Martin]

You had that experience?

[Renee Rapp]

I dated, yeah. Yeah. It's like gay friendships amongst, I think, like, any identity, but specifically just from my experience amongst, like, gay girls or, like, queer people are just so intense. They're just so intense and kind of like, I was saying, like, I love my girlfriend more than anything. She is, like, the, like, pinnacle of. She's just like the most perfect person. I idolize her. I, like, think that she's perfect. And my friendships are relationships that I value just as much.

[Anna Martin]

What's a moment recently that you felt that deep intimacy with a friend?

[Renee Rapp]

I mean, I felt like, God, we just. We also hang out all the time, so it's like literally all the time. Like, all the time. Give me time.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah. Like a specific moment. Yeah.

[Renee Rapp]

I mean, okay. So recently, like, my best friend and I were at a concert together and it was like us and our girlfriends and some of our other friends had come with us and whatever. Whatever. And I hadn't. I hadn't really, like, been seeing her. Your girlfriend as much? No, one of my best friends.

[Anna Martin]

Gotcha.

[Renee Rapp]

I hadn't been, like, seeing as much of her as I typically would. Like, we. My, like, friend group is, like, about 15 to 17 deep. Again, we're together every weekend, like, probably Friday, Saturday, Sunday, like, all sleeping at, like, our house, like, and then starting again the next day. It's the most fun. You cannot even imagine. It's an ideal world. We, like, really, like, we're like, nothing fucking matters. It's awesome.

[Anna Martin]

It's awesome.

[Renee Rapp]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah. You hadn't seen her for a bit.

[Renee Rapp]

Yeah. Like, we had been together, but we'd just been, like, going out and she'd been traveling and whatever. And this is. This is arguably, like, my. My best friend in our friend group, and her and I have. We're so tethered together. And when I, like, wasn't seeing her, I was missing her and she was missing me. And we were like, consciously but subconsciously just kind of like being like, miss you, like, whatever, and not really being like, I'm going to look you in the eye and be like, I love you so much. I, like, need more from you and I need more attention. Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

What do you think was behind that? Not really articulating, like, the depth of feeling or.

[Renee Rapp]

I think both of us just love each other so much that we didn't want to put off the other one by feeling too. Like, I need something from you. And so we internalized it as we were mad at each other. And so I had spoken about it with one of my, like, greatest friends who's not in our immediate friend group but like, knows all of us and is like pretty much embedded. And she's about 10 years older than me and I just like, trust her with my life. She's like my, like, oh, she's like my North Star lesbian. Like, she's perfect. And I was like, I don't know.

[Anna Martin]

Like, what to do.

[Renee Rapp]

I feel crazy. I feel like I've done something wrong. And she was like, you haven't done anything wrong. You and her have such a tight relationship. You just can like call her, by the way, and be like, I love you, I miss you. I really want attention from you. Did I do something wrong? I know that I didn't, but can you affirm me?

[Anna Martin]

But can I just say, of course you can do that. But what a vulnerable thing to do, even with a close friend to. And perhaps even especially with a really close friend. It's like, oh, yeah, you have this history to, I don't know, yeah, you, they're so important to you. You don't want to disrupt that balance. Right? And so, and so it's nerve wracking.

[Renee Rapp]

And so I spoke to her and then sure enough, we like went to the concert and like, what did she.

[Anna Martin]

Say when you said, like, I, I'm feeling like I need you. Like, what did she say back to that?

[Renee Rapp]

She was like, oh, of course I can give you attention.

[Anna Martin]

I love you.

[Renee Rapp]

And I was like, oh, perfect. And then we talked about it at the concert and kind of we were drunk, so I don't remember all that much. But we were, we were just kind of going back and forth being like, I love you so much and I've missed you. I thought you were mad at me. And she was like, I thought you were mad at me. Like, we were supposed to get dinner and we didn't. And I was like, honey, I'm so flaky. That has nothing to do with you. I'm trying to remember to eat dinner. Like, I love you. All I want to do is spend time with you. Like, you're the greatest addition to my life that's been in the last couple years. Like, I would never, if anything, you ever did upset me. I love you more than anything that I would come up to you and be like, I'm upset, but in reality you didn't do anything.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah, those moments of I'm like breathing easier because I've had my own moments of like, conflict in a friendship that are like, that where both of you have the best intentions.

[Renee Rapp]

Totally.

[Anna Martin]

But you're missing each other on some fundamental level. And then just when you say it out loud, it's such a, like, deep exhale. And then also I've had that, like, very fun kind of drug like feeling where you're like, I love you. I love you so much. Just like, holding your friend's face and saying. And it is so connective and necessary and important.

[Renee Rapp]

Oh, it's the best thing ever. Just this past Saturday, we're all, like, really tipsy in the backyard, and my friend Cassidy looks over at all of us, and this happens so often. Starts crying and is like, I love you guys. I've never had a friend group like this in my life that's like, so, like, gay. And like, we're all so weird and we do the most obscene shit around each other, but we're all so cute and so sexy and we're, like, crying. And she literally said, I wrote it down in my phone. Cause I was like, this is belligerent. I love this so much. She was like, you know, you can just be who you are, and whoever that is, that's who you are. And we all. We were crying, laughing because she was being so genuine. But what the fuck?

[Anna Martin]

Totally.

[Renee Rapp]

She's being so cute.

[Anna Martin]

That's a circular thing. You can be who you are, and whoever you are is who you are. That's who you are underneath Cass, what is she saying? What I think she's articulating is actually something I sense, at least in the beginning part of this essay, which is like, she feels safe.

[Renee Rapp]

Yes, exactly. With you.

[Anna Martin]

Exactly. She feels incredibly safe. The core of your friend group, it sounds like. Is this real safety?

[Renee Rapp]

You can't even imagine.

[Anna Martin]

The end of this essay. At the end of this essay, the author says, what does she say? She says, we don't. Neither of us know how to do this.

[Renee Rapp]

Right.

[Anna Martin]

Neither of us know how to do this. And my read of that is that she feels like Mira and her don't know what the future will hold for their relationship. They don't know how to navigate the sort of. The unknown of what's to come. And I guess, you know, you've discovered all these things about ways to make friendship work and be supportive in your life. And also, there's many years of friendship ahead of you to go.

[Renee Rapp]

Right. Totally.

[Anna Martin]

Do you feel like, you know, do you feel like you have a blueprint for friendship?

[Renee Rapp]

I don't think I.

[Anna Martin]

Like, do you know how to do this?

[Renee Rapp]

I don't think I have a blueprint. But I do know exactly what I want and what I need. And if I don't know, then I know how to ask for it.

[Anna Martin]

Huh.

[Renee Rapp]

And ask for, like, some, like, forgiveness if I'm wrong or if I change.

[Anna Martin]

Do you worry about your friendships changing as you get older?

[Renee Rapp]

No.

[Anna Martin]

Really?

[Renee Rapp]

Not really. Because friendships just inherently do change. They just do. They just change. Even with Aaliyah? Aaliyah lives in New York now and I live in la. So inherently our friendship will change. We see each other less. I don't know. It always changes.

[Anna Martin]

I am realizing. I mean, you said this group of friends is 15 to 17, which is a MA. We started off talking about girl groups. Usually like three, four, maybe five. Y' all have a big girl in the broadest sense.

[Renee Rapp]

Of course. We talk. We talk every single day.

[Anna Martin]

Okay, this is what I'm gonna ask. You have a group chat, I'm sure.

[Renee Rapp]

Multiple.

[Anna Martin]

I imagine your phone's on like do not disturb or whatever. When you turn it back on. Well, you have a million group text chats from. You can't even imagine.

[Renee Rapp]

We always make this joke that, like, when we're active in the group chat, it is the greatest thing ever. And when one of us are, like, working and, like, doing it, it is so fucking annoying because the group Chat's got like 2,000 unreads. It's a novel.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah, it really is a novel. Maybe you come back and you read us a version of that group chat. Renee Rapp. What fun. Thank you for coming into the studio today. Thanks, man. The Modern Love team is Amy Pearl, Christina Josa, Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Reeva Goldberg and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Emily Lang. It was edited by Davis Land and Lynn Levy. This episode was mixed by Daniel Ramirez with studio support from Matty Masiello and Nick Pittman. Our video team is Brooke Minters, Sophie Erickson and Alfredo Chiarappa. The Modern Love theme music is by Dan Powell. Original music in this episode by Carol Savaro, Dan Powell and Rowan Nimisto. Special thanks to Mihima Chablani, Jeffrey Miranda and Kathleen o'.

[C]

Brien.

[Anna Martin]

The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones. Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we have the instructions in our show Notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.

[Renee Rapp]

For 140 years, MultiCare has been in.

[Anna Martin]

Washington prioritizing long term solutions, partnering with local communities and expanding access to care Together, we're building a healthier future. Learn [e-mail].