The Real Story Behind Jennette McCurdy’s Novel “Half His Age.”

Summary

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Modern Love – The Real Story Behind Jennette McCurdy’s Novel “Half His Age”

Host: Anna Martin (New York Times)
Guest: Jennette McCurdy (author, actor)
Date: February 4, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this deeply personal episode, Anna Martin sits down with Jennette McCurdy to discuss McCurdy’s new novel, Half His Age, and the real-life experiences—in particular an age-gap relationship at 18—that inspired it. The conversation is an unfiltered exploration of power, longing, anger, female adolescence, and the complexities of consent, agency, and memory within imbalanced relationships.

Content note: This episode contains explicit discussion of sexuality, abuse of power in relationships, and coming-of-age themes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Premise & Themes of Half His Age

[02:40] Jennette McCurdy:

• The novel explores “female rage and power and desire as told through the lens of a very lonely and ravenous 17-year-old girl,” Waldo.
• Waldo is desperate for experiences, transformation, and, above all, identity. She seeks fulfillment through clothing, beauty, love, and intimacy.

[03:33] McCurdy on Waldo’s Background:

• Waldo is raised by a teen mother in trailer parks, entering her senior year with low self-esteem shaped by her circumstances and societal messages.

2. Mr. Corgi: Writing with Empathy vs. Judgment

[04:06] McCurdy:

• Mr. Corgi, the 40-year-old teacher involved with Waldo, was challenging to write:
  • Early drafts cast him as a clear villain, a reflex from McCurdy’s own protective feelings for Waldo.
  • For depth and realism, McCurdy ultimately strove to empathize with him: “He’s living with regrets and disappointment, most of that unprocessed… trying to feel okay with himself, despite really feeling shame about not living up to his expectations for the life that he wanted.”

[05:18] Anna Martin:

• Anna observes that the novel’s refusal to straightforwardly condemn Corgi or sentimentalize Waldo heightens its discomfort and complexity.

3. Writing a Teenage Perspective

[08:03] McCurdy and Martin:

• Anna describes the “bravado and insecurity” of being 17, the constant vacillation between feeling mature and feeling lost—a feeling McCurdy skillfully captures.
• McCurdy, now 33, relates to the intensity if not the instability: “I always say, if emotions are on a scale of one to ten, I don’t really feel anything beneath an eight… I’m such a feeler.”

4. Anger and Female Agency

[11:41] McCurdy:

• Waldo’s suppressed anger is a central element, reflected in her assertive sexuality:

[12:16] Jennette McCurdy:
“It was so important to me that Waldo be very aggressive, very forward… because ultimately, she is still 17… No matter what this girl does, no matter how she… she could throw herself at his feet… he’s still 40 and he’s still her teacher.”

• If Mr. Corgi had initiated, the story would have been easier for readers to judge, but McCurdy wanted “gray area.”

5. Sex as the Arena of Wanting

[13:53] Quote from Half His Age (read by Martin):

“Sex is the one where my needs aren’t too big and all of my yearnings acceptable. The one place where I can show how deep the well is within me. The one place I can beg and whine and scream to have it filled.”

[14:29] McCurdy:

• Many young women channel emotional needs through sex, often not knowing how to articulate wants besides physical ones.

6. McCurdy’s Real-Life Age-Gap Relationship

[15:20]–[21:07]† McCurdy:

• At 18, McCurdy began a relationship with a man in his mid-30s. Unlike Waldo, she was “so much more naive,” with strong Mormon influences shaping her sexuality and self-image.
  • She had virtually no dating or physical experience.
  • The man, at first, had a live-in girlfriend—“red flags on red flags,” which she only recognized in retrospect.
• What drew her to him: His “realness” and willingness to see through her people-pleasing, façade-based persona; he made her feel truly “seen.”

[23:54] McCurdy:

• The physical chemistry was intense and unprecedented for her.

7. Secrets, Shame, and Familiar Trauma

[25:48]–[26:20] McCurdy:

• The secrecy and stress of the relationship “felt familiar.”
  • Growing up with chaos at home (parents fighting), her body accepted chaos as normalcy.

8. Sexual Inexperience & Power Imbalance

[26:58]–[33:14] McCurdy:

• She recounts her sexual inexperience, not even knowing what “cum” was (“I thought he peed in my mouth”)—a mix of confusion, body discomfort, and—later—humor.

[27:38] Jennette McCurdy:
“I didn’t really see or understand my value in other areas at all. I… really believed that my value came from sex.”

• The man pressured her sexually, using manipulative language:

  “I need to know that you’re comfortable doing something. I’m okay not having sex, but I need to know that you’ll do something because I have to have my needs met.” [30:56]

• Her anxiety and people-pleasing drove her to comply, always rating herself by how much she accommodated him.

9. The Uses of Humor with Darkness

[33:19] McCurdy:

• Humor is integral—not to trivialize, but to represent the full range of reality:

  “There’s so much humor and levity in dark subject matter, and to pretend there isn’t is actually denying the truth of it.”

10. Ending the Relationship & Later Reflection

[37:32]–[39:31] McCurdy:

• She eventually left him (“I left his ass”)—spurred on by a sense that her “life [was] in front of me.”
• She rarely looked back; when she moved on, she was done.

[39:42] The Role of Anger in Healing:

• In her 30s, McCurdy has learned to meet her past self with compassion, to process things that in her 20s she could not.
  • Writing gave her “closure where there wasn’t closure,” transforming rage into softness and, paradoxically, even appreciation.
  • She now sees anger as a mobilizing force responsible for empowering her to leave detrimental relationships and to heal.

[44:17] Jennette McCurdy:
“Thank God for anger. I think sadness can really, for me, keep me stuck… But my God, anger will get me off the fucking chair and making some decisions and moving forward and doing the work.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On empathy for her abuser:

  “I had to go in and try to really empathize with him, really find that compassion for him and really feel into the reality of being someone in his position, and the reality of being Waldo.”
  —Jennette McCurdy [06:01]

• On teenage longing:

  “She’s desperately seeking identity, and solace, and comfort, in many different areas of life.”
  —McCurdy on Waldo [02:55]

• Anna Martin on adolescence:

  “I remember being this age and kind of simultaneously thinking I was the shit and thinking I was shit.” [08:16]

• On sexual agency & power imbalance:

  “No matter what this girl does...he’s still 40 and he’s still her teacher.”
  —McCurdy [12:58]

• On anger as a source of strength:

  “Anger is what got me to get over an eating disorder. Anger is what got me to get into the right relationship, which is the one that I’m in now that I’ve been in for 9 years. Anger is what got me to quit acting and say no more. Anger is what’s gotten me anything good in my life.”
  —McCurdy [44:17]

• If she could advise her past self:

  “Run, run, baby, run fast, run far.”
  —McCurdy [45:39]

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Important Timestamps

• 02:40 – 03:58: McCurdy introduces Half His Age, Waldo’s character, and her motivations.
• 04:06 – 07:09: The writing of Mr. Corgi and the challenge of balancing empathy and judgment.
• 08:03 – 09:24: The experience and psychology of being 17—bravado and insecurity.
• 11:41 – 14:49: How anger, desire, and agency interplay in Waldo’s pursuit of Mr. Corgi; sex as a locus of needs.
• 15:20 – 23:02: McCurdy’s own age-gap relationship: background, dynamics, and initial feelings.
• 26:58 – 33:14: Sexual inexperience, first sexual encounter, confusion, shame, and later humor.
• 37:32 – 39:31: Ending the real-life relationship and moving forward.
• 39:42 – 44:17: Anger’s role in healing, closure, and self-acceptance in adulthood.
• 45:29 – 46:05: Advice to her younger self (“Run!”).

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Tone & Language

• Confessional, unflinchingly honest, raw, and often darkly funny.
• Anna Martin is empathetic and gently probing; Jennette McCurdy is introspective and open, not shying away from uncomfortable details, lacing seriousness with deadpan humor.

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Final Note

This episode is a nuanced, gripping look at the blurry space between consent, agency, and victimization in coming-of-age and age-disparate relationships, both in fiction and in life. McCurdy’s candor offers rare insight into the long-term emotional aftermath of these experiences—and the cathartic, fertilizing potential of anger.

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Episode summary by an expert podcast summarizer. For more Modern Love, go to nytimes.com/podcasts.

Transcript

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[Anna Martin]

Experience love now and did you fall in love last fella?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Love love but stronger than anything for.

[Anna Martin]

The love love can I love you.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

More than anything there's to love love.

[Anna Martin]

From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love. Today I'm talking to Jeanette McCurdy. Jeanette pretty much grew up in front of an audience. She was a Nickelodeon star. You probably know her from the show icarly, but behind the scenes she was struggling and she wrote about all of it in her 2022 bestselling memoir, I'm Glad My Mom Died. Now she has a new book out. It's a novel and it's called Half His Age. And it's a story about a relationship between a 17 year old girl named Waldo and her 40 year old teacher, Mr. Corgi. What hit me about Half His Age is just how complicated this dynamic is between Waldo and Mr. Corgi. Jeanette does not sugarcoat their relationship, but she also doesn't pass judgment. Jeanette told me when she was 18 she had her own age gap relationship and it took writing this book for her to fully come to terms with what happened and what she learned from it. A heads up before we get into it, this episode does get explicit. So if you're listening with kids around, save this one for later. Jennette McCurdy, welcome to Modern Love.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Hi Anna.

[Anna Martin]

Jeanette, your first book was a memoir that spent over 80 weeks on the New York Times bestseller list. It's called I'm Glad My Mom Died. And now you've written a new book called Half His Age. It's a novel, it's fiction. But there are elements of your own life that you brought into the story, which we'll get into. First, though, why don't you tell me about this book? What is Half His Age about?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yeah, Half his age.

[Anna Martin]

Whoa.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I got so serious.

[Anna Martin]

I like this. We can span all these different tones, please.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I was like, this is the New York Times. Why is it sultry too? Kind of.

[Anna Martin]

I like that vibe. Please. That feels like it actually kind of fits with what his half his Age is about. Right? A bit of a sultry vibe. All right, give it to me.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

So Half His Age is an exploration of female rage and power and desire as told through the lens of a very lonely and ravenous 17 year old girl.

[Anna Martin]

Ravenous. That is a specific word. Tell me what you mean by that.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

She wants, desperately, so many things. So many things. She wants clothing that will make her feel like someone other than she is. She wants beauty items that she thinks will make her feel like something other than she is. She wants a person who she thinks might make her feel like something other than she is. She's really desperately seeking identity and solace and comfort in many different areas of life.

[Anna Martin]

She wants. There's this deep well of wanting. Yeah. And let's even sort of set the scene even more. Waldo, main character, is 17, she lives in Alaska. What's her family situation like?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

So Waldo was born to a teen mother. Her mother had her when she was 16 years old and she spent her childhood in various trailer parks. She has, you know, not great self esteem as a result of her circumstances and you know, various messaging that she's gotten from various people. Her mother, society. And now, you know, when we meet her in the book, she's just going into her senior year of high school.

[Anna Martin]

And it's in school that we meet the other main character of this book, Mr. Corgi. Tell me about Mr. Corgi.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Mr. Corgi. I. I pause. Where do we begin? No, you know, there's two ways that I could answer this. And one is this sort of, you know, skewering him and defending Waldo and protecting Waldo, which is one instinct that I have. And the other is to more, to empathize with him and to find the humanity in him. And as challenging as that was kind of throughout the writing process, that wound up being really, really pivotal so that he wasn't too mustache twirly or, you know, on the nose, villainous. So Mr. Corgi, if I try to touch into my empathy toward him, you know, he's a 40 year old creative writing teacher who has so many failed dreams, none of his dreams for himself panned out. He's living with a lot of regrets and a lot of disappointment. Most of that unprocessed. He's just kind of chugging along, going through the day to day, fulfilling his duties and obligations as a husband, as a father, as a teacher, and trying to feel okay with Himself, despite really feeling shame about not living up to his expectations for the life that he wanted for himself.

[Anna Martin]

I mean, people, you know, can't see this, but I have the pleasure of you're closing your eyes. I mean, it's clear to me that you're close inhabiting his mind. And what you said about empathy, I think is so striking and so important because Waldo, 17, Mr. Corgi, you know, 40 something, they begin a sexual and a romantic relationship, a deeply intimate relationship that the rest of the book explores. Sort of the peaks and the valleys and the fallout of, you know, in both of their lives. Tell me more about what you said. There's these two ways you could look at him as a, you know, what was the. It was like to really judge. And then the other was this that you embodied. And you said that was a struggle when you were writing this book. Tell me a little bit more about that.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yeah, I went through so many drafts of this novel, and in the beginning drafts, I really wrote Corgi as too on the nose, as too villainous. And I think that was me as an author interfering because I wanted to protect Waldo, because I felt so much love and compassion for her and not as much for Corgi. I had those judgments toward that, I think are the very easy kind of, you know, first draft judgments that you're going to have of a person in this kind of a situation. And then when I would read those drafts back, I realized he just did not read grounded, he did not read believable. And ultimately, because he was reading that way, that was a disservice to Waldo as a narrator. It made her less credible. It made her unreliable because you're going, well, why is. Why does she even like this person? What does she like about him? And for her to be discredited, if she were discredited, I would lose the novel. So I had to go in and try to really empathize with him, really find that compassion for him and really feel into the reality of being someone.

[Anna Martin]

In his position and the reality of being Waldo. This book is told through Waldo's perspective. This 17 year old were really in that 17 year old brain. I think you did a remarkable job of inhabiting that age. It was so effective. It was actually quite uncomfortable for, like, you really hit that funny, fizzy mix of, like, bravado and insecurity. The way that you describe how Waldo puts on her makeup like it's protection, like it's armor. But she's never satisfied. All the online shopping to kind of try on New identities, how she hates the people in school, but also sort of wants to be them. It's like we're really inhabiting this kind of intense fluctuation of the teenage brain. Why was it important for you to tell this story through Waldo's perspective instead of, I don't know, like a. Like a third person narrator telling this story?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I also wanna circle back to your discomfort. I have. I'm so curious about. Anytime somebody brings up discomfort, I'm interested.

[Anna Martin]

Oh, my God. Ask me a question. I love that. Yeah. I mean, in terms of like, why was I uncomfortable?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yes.

[Anna Martin]

Oh, my gosh. Well, I think it's what I'm pointing. It's like I remember being this age and kind of simultaneously thinking I was the shit and thinking I was shit. Do you know what I mean? Like, it was just this real roller coaster moment to moment, not even day to day. Just like truly many moments in the day where I was like, you know, I know stuff. I'm mature. Oh, my gosh. I'm, you know, I don't know anything like this. Just this constant vacillation of my identity. I feel like I didn't have a core or a center. And, you know, speak about the wanting that you said with Waldo. Oh, my gosh, I wanted so much. So I just. I feel like you put me in that. Unstable is the word that comes to mind, but I don't mean that in a judgmental way either. I just mean like this kind of. Yeah. Electric feelings of. Of insecurity and bravado. That. That's what it brought me back to. Yeah.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

So interesting. I also. I feel like unstable is the perfect word. I feel like Nobody's stable at 17. There's so much inherent instability and uncertainty. You don't know where anything's gonna land. It is so uncomfortable to be 17. It is.

[Anna Martin]

Well, how did you get. Let me just ask, like, how did you as a. Sorry, rude to ask someone their age. But from my research, you're 33, is that correct?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I'm 33, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Anna Martin]

I'm 31. Okay, so we're all friends here. What was it like to put yourself back in that 17 year old perspective? How did you do it?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Well, maybe this is the way I relate to a 17 year old most, is that I always say, if emotions are on a scale of a one to a ten, I don't really feel anything beneath an eight. Wait, now, I'm not a 17 year old.

[Anna Martin]

You.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Now, now, I agree with you. I'm a feeler. I'm Such a feeler. I'm so, you know, sensitive and fought that for a long time. Now. I'm, you know, I'm okay with it. And it's not that it's not ever challenging. It certainly can be, but I've always been this way. And so I think that's kind of an element of being 17. But the real extremes I definitely don't relate to anymore. Thank God. Oh, my Lord. And the feelings, kind of what you're describing, of the whiplash of narratives day to day, I'm the worst. I'm the best, you know. Yeah, it's quite disorienting, quite chaotic, and, you know, it's. I don't know how to describe it other than it was just okay. I was actually writing another novel.

[Anna Martin]

Oh, my gosh.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

But it was something. I feel like this thing happens with ideas where it's like working on a project is like being in a relationship. And in the beginning, it's the honeymoon phase, and it's amazing, and it's sexy and it's hot, and it's the greatest thing. And then it becomes work. And when it becomes work, all your other little ideas start looking real hot, and you're going, well, what if I dated them? Could I just take them out on one date real quick? So I was pretty deep in this other novel, and then half his age just started pushing itself up on me. And what I mean by that is that Waldo's voice specifically started really pushing itself up on me in lines that she would say, and just sort of this overwhelming, almost flush of anger kind of would surge through my body, which is. I think, you know, much of Waldo is really. She's suppressing her anger, and I think that's really a key element of her arc.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah, you do get that sense throughout the book that Waldo is very angry. And I think that's a quite powerful emotion, you know, to experience. From Waldo's point of view, we get this sense of anger, anger towards her situation, anger towards Mr. Corgi. You know, another thing, too, about this account that I think is important is that in this physical relationship with Mr. Corgi, it's Waldo who makes the first move. Can you talk to me about that choice? Like, was that important to you? And if so, why?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

It was so important to me that Waldo be very aggressive, very forward, very adamant, very bold. Because ultimately, she is still 17 in whatever ways she pushes, asserts, inserts herself onto this person, into this dynamic. She's 17. And I really tried not to be, you know, moralistic or finger Waggy in the writing of. And here I am about to get more lithic. I managed to go 300 pages, and now.

[Anna Martin]

But now it all comes out, my friend. Now it all comes up.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

But, you know, it is. It's like, no matter what this girl does, no matter how she. She could throw herself at his feet.

[Anna Martin]

Hmm.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

He's still 40, and he's still our teacher.

[Anna Martin]

If Mr. Corgi had made the first move, what would be different about that story?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Hmm. I think it would be an easier story. I think it would be one where you can label judgment a lot quicker and you can write off both Corgi and Waldo, in a sense, and you can kind of instantly put them into these boxes and go, okay, I know what this story is. I know what this is gonna be. You know, Really? I think you could close the book at that point, to be honest. You wouldn't need to read it.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah, yeah. It would be very good. Clear morally. But instead, you chose to write this book that we've said the word uncomfortable, that exists, like, much more in sort of a gray area, because Waldo wants, like, Waldo wants him.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

And.

[Anna Martin]

And even in these sex scenes, I mean, there's like, a real kind of mutuality there, right? It's not just one person pursuing the other. They're both hungry for each other. There's this quote from Half His Age where Waldo says, sex is the one where my needs aren't too big and all of my yearnings acceptable. The one place where I can show how deep the well is within me. The one place I can beg and whine and scream to have it filled. So it's like sex is this representation of her wanting, of this kind of unquenchable need, as we've talked about.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Definitely. I think that's such a common experience for young women. It was certainly my experience. It was certainly the experience of literally every one of my female friends.

[Anna Martin]

Why I bring it up. It's very hesitant. Yeah.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

And it's like, you know, at that age, we don't necessarily know how to maybe even acknowledge our needs, let alone articulate them to somebody else.

[Anna Martin]

Emotional needs, not emotional needs.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Exactly. Exactly. And so I think sex kind of acts as this placeholder or this thing that we think can house all of our needs, that we think, okay, well, I want him to treat me better, to make more time for me to acknowledge my emotions. Instead, well, can he just fuck me? Because that's all I think I can get. Maybe that's all I think I'm worth. Maybe. Maybe I just don't know how to vocalize those other needs yet.

[Anna Martin]

In other interviews, you shared that you had an experience with an age gap relationship that started when you were around 18. Was writing half his age a way to process that experience for you?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

In some ways, I think so. You know, I definitely think that seed of that overlap was the jumping off point for the novel. And then, of course, you know, Waldo's her own character, and half his age is its own story. And I know so many people will project me onto this. I'm aware. I'm fine with that. Although I do think it is a misread because, you know, Waldo truly, truly is her own character and deserves to be seen for that. But. But I do find writing is a way for me to process things that I maybe hadn't processed fully from my past. I do think writing is a way for me to find closure in areas where I didn't have closure.

[Anna Martin]

Well, you mentioned that it was anger was the kind of anchoring emotion that pulled you towards this book, into this story. So it seems like there must have been, maybe even, you know, subconsciously been, anger around this experience that you perhaps needed to work through. Does that feel true?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yes. Several drafts in, I literally did not know why I was writing this book, and I didn't want to analyze it. I didn't want to figure it out. I just thought, okay, this is coming through me. Great. Let's just go with it. And then a few drafts in, I looked back over it and, you know, I was looking over it with a red pen and a highlighter and realizing, oh, my God, I have so much unprocessed anger about situations from my past. I think that is the emotional charge that is making this book happen.

[Anna Martin]

Huh. How did it feel to realize that?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Jarring, I guess, because, you know, I've done so much work in therapy. I've done so much, you know, personal work on myself, and I really, really value personal growth. And it's something that I. It's not like I'm thinking about this relationship so far in the past. I'm not thinking about it. I don't feel burdened by it in any way. I'm not thinking like, you know, I'm. It's really not something that I think about. And so the fact that there was clearly so much left to process that needed to come out about it was shocking.

[Anna Martin]

Stay with us.

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[Anna Martin]

Experian. However much again you feel comfortable sharing, can you tell me about that relationship that happened when you were around 18?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yeah, I was 18. He was in his mid-30s, and I was a very. I was so much more naive than Waldo. Waldo is so much bolder than I was. She's so much more perceptive and sexually experienced. That's a big part of them. Exactly. And sexually experienced. I was perceptive, but I would kind of shove down my instincts and not address them at all. Waldo's glaringly aware of how she thinks and feels about everything at all times. I respect her for it, but I was very suppressed. I grew up Mormon, and though my family hadn't really been to church in a few years at that point, I still really had that kind of Mormon value system embedded in me. And so sex was bad and not something I was gonna do until marriage. And even sexuality was sort of pervers viewed as perverse. And I had literally no experience with men at all.

[Anna Martin]

Wow. Like, not even a kiss?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Let's see. I had had one kiss. I'd had one kiss in a Hampton Inn and Suites in Nashville, Tennessee.

[Anna Martin]

Shout out.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

It was hot.

[Anna Martin]

Okay, so you had a kiss. But nothing beyond a kiss.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I, beyond exactly nothing beyond that. Had never been on a date like Nothing. And then this happened, this relationship with this person. And initially he had a girlfriend. He lived with his girlfriend.

[Anna Martin]

Whoa. Yeah.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

And there were a few months where he was with her and we were essentially together, you know, and. Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

Can I ask you, like, putting yourself back, 18 year old. You like, what intrigued you about him? How did you feel when you were with him?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

He seemed real to me. You know, growing up in Hollywood, there is just a certain way that world operates, and it's really never been one that I feel like I've understood the rules of. It feels like there is a secret code to Hollywood that everyone was told. Everyone was just tapped on the head with the rules of Hollywood. And I'm sitting here going, little wand. Yes. And I'm going, what is literally anybody saying at any given time? Why can nobody own an opinion? Like, can we please somebody, for the love of God, own their opinions? Anyway, I love Hollywood.

[Anna Martin]

It's great. I was gonna say it sounds like there'd be fun parties.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Question mark. Yeah. And then I met this person who just seemed real and seemed.

[Anna Martin]

And were they. I've heard another interview. You met them at works. They were still part of the world.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

But different from the world. Yeah. They didn't feel Hollywood to me. They didn't seem like they spoke in that kind of code. It's not a wink and a gun, but Hollywood really does kind of feel like a wink and a gun as people are just talking at you all the time. But he just felt different and he seemed vulnerable. He seemed honest about, you know, himself and his life. I was attracted to him.

[Anna Martin]

And you were physically attracted to him.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yes. Although, you know, I suppose there is some overlap here. Cause when waldo first meets Mr. Corgi, she's really shocked that she is attracted to someone who is not conventionally attractive. Yes. Yes. Up to this point in her life, she's only been attracted to people who are attractive.

[Anna Martin]

Yes. She calls out that. She's like, you know, the. What's it? I'm gonna butcher your beautiful words. But, like, the pores on his face and the paunch and these types of things. She, like, acknowledges these at the same time as being like, I want his wrinkly balls. I mean, that's something that you mention in the book, right?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yeah. She's drawn to him and doesn't. Really doesn't know why, because this has never happened before. And, you know, there was certainly some overlap in my experience where this is not somebody who I found, you know, particularly physically attractive. And yet I felt very attracted to him.

[Anna Martin]

Was this the kind of first time you'd felt that intense physical attraction?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

100%. 100%. It was this hungry kind of, I have to be with this person attraction.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah, I know it. I mean, I felt it. And I can also remember that first time. How did we talked about what drew you to him, but how did he make you feel when you were with him?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Mm. Seen in a way that others really couldn't. I think, I think most other people were sort of taking my. I mean, it was like a goody two shoes Mormon. I like, I spoke in a different voice. It's like, mm, yes, sir. Like so annoying, obnoxious. And I think other people took those behaviors at face value and believed that I was that. And there was something in him that was like, what's really going on? Like, what's underneath that? I know you're smarter than you're pretending to be. I know you're seeing more than you're pretending to. What's kicking around. And so in that way, there was sort of an opportunity for me to learn more about myself than I had before through others.

[Anna Martin]

That must have been really validating for the. For a realer version of you to be seen by someone.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yeah, it was. Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

Hmm. Yeah.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Of course I have complicated feelings about that now, but of course we will get to those.

[Anna Martin]

But in the. I think it's interesting to sort of exist because in the space of your 18 year old brain. Right. I mean, we talked about how important it is. Again, you are not Waldo. Waldo is not you. It's like important to make that distinction. You know, we spend so much time in Waldo's brain. It's illuminating. And now you're letting us into like, what was actually your experience being in your brain, being like, I'm being seen. Other people don't see me in this way. This person feels real. This person feels different. For the first. You said bit of time while you were seeing each other, this man was in a relationship. So was it a. It was more of a secret. This was just between you two?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yes, it was a secret. And it was a thing that it was a secret. And it was a massive stressor. And I think, you know back on that now. And the undeniable link between generational trauma and my experience and my upbringing and why I was attracted to that kind of a situation in the first place. Now, of course, it seems utterly insane to be like, wait, this person has a girlfriend that he lives with? And like just red flags on red flags on red flags on red flags. But at the Time. There was something that my body was familiar with.

[Anna Martin]

Huh.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

In the stress that this relationship provided me. And a strange comfort in that stress. This may sound gross, this may sound confusing, but I think anyone who grew up in a dysfunctional family knows exactly what I'm talking about. I grew up with, you know, parents screaming and fighting and constantly. And it was really chaotic. And so my body, I think, expected and accepted that kind of chaos. As normalcy, as home.

[Anna Martin]

I mean, the intimate dynamic, the sexual dynamic between the two of you. You mentioned that you were not experienced before this relationship at all.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I literally did not know what cum was. I did not know what cum was.

[Anna Martin]

You did not know what cum was? Yeah, I mean, it's. There is a time where we don't know what cum is.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I mean, I'm 18, but that's where I was at. Kids.

[Anna Martin]

I'm trying to like, think about, like interest. Okay. And what was it like to discover. That's not a question I've ever asked on the show before. What was it like to discover what cum was?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

But that is the question. It was nasty.

[Anna Martin]

And this is like a. Hmm. How do I ask this? It's like. Cause earlier on in the conversation, you were talking about how sex for you became a really important part of relationships. Or like a container for emotional needs.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

And how I felt. Value. Frankly, I didn't really see or understand my value in other areas at all. I. Yeah, I. I really believed that my value came from sex.

[Anna Martin]

And this, what was it? This. Because this was your first sexual relationship.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Right.

[Anna Martin]

So it's where these sort of neural pathways were being connected. If it were like, how did sex factor into this relationship? And how did it sort of teach you? This is determinant of my worth.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Well, I'll share the cum story with you first. Cause that was sort of the tip of the iceberg. Right.

[Anna Martin]

Of course.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Where. So he had, you know, he'd had a girlfriend. This was. Maybe it began in August or so, and then by October, November, it was really. It was becoming too difficult for me. And so I was the one who was like, I don't think I can do this anymore. And then of course, the moment that you say that is the moment, well, I'm leaving her. I'm gonna leave her, right? I swear I'm going to tomorrow. Did you reverse her? He eventually did. It was, I'm gonna do it tomorrow, I'm gonna. Next week, I'm gonna. And it just kept getting punted. And then there grand plan where he was gonna go out of town to visit family for Christmas. And he was gonna break up with her when he returned. So he's gonna go break up with his girlfriend and then I'm supposed to pick him up, right? And so we're gonna go to my apartment, but then my mom's sick, so then she comes to my apartment with like my dad, my grandma, my grandpa, my three brothers. So it's just like this big Mormon dorky family in my apartment. And I'm like trying to bring my 30 something year old boyfriend home, right? So, so then I'm like, okay, sort.

[Anna Martin]

Of like, yeah, worst case scenarios in all directions.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Worst case scenario, exactly. So then I'm like, okay, I can problem solve here. I know what I'll do. I'll get us a room at the Sheraton Universal.

[Anna Martin]

Not the Hampton Inn where you had your first.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I know. Should have gone back. They've treated me well. Those warm cookies are great. So I got a night stay at the Sheraton Universal. I picked him up. He was drunk off his ass. Which I had never had a sip of alcohol at this point. Or yeah, maybe I had had one sip at this point. I don't know the timeline, but I certainly had never had like a glass of alcohol at this point. And so I didn't know that he was completely drunk. Like now I get, oh, he was way, way, way, way, way drunk. I didn't know if he'd had one drink. And this is just what a person looked like. He's like stumbling around. There's beer stains all on his shirt, just a mess. And I'm like a little embarrassed already in the lobby, right? Because he's just stumbling around. He's like banging up against the elevator door. We get up to our room, he can't even. I remember he couldn't swipe the key card on. He couldn't get it to work. So I take the key card, we go inside. And then he's sobbing and wondering if he made the right choice, thinking he made a mistake.

[Anna Martin]

He broke up.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

He just broken up, Literally just left this breakup. So he's in the throes of that and really emotional, and then asks me to give him a blowjob. Because up to this point I have said, I don't do sex till marriage. I'm not gonna do that. I don't. I mean, I didn't even really know. I wouldn't have known how to do it. And so it had just been sort of kissing up to that point. And then he says, you know, I need to know that you're comfortable doing something. I'm okay not having sex, but I need to know that you'll do something because I have to have my needs met.

[Anna Martin]

He had said, wow, that is really interesting language.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Isn't that interesting language? And so I felt a flood of anxiety, like, full body fire anxiety, and just thinking, okay, I have to figure out how to do this thing that I don't know how to do. So I was, like, asking him, or.

[Anna Martin]

Else I'll lose him, or else I'll lose him. And that's the stake.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Exactly, exactly. And at first I said no. I'd said no a couple times, and then it was, okay, I'm leaving. That kind of thing, which was very much our dynamic as a whole, was just so unhealthy. But of course, I'm included in that. I'm not just putting that on him, but. But then he starts telling me kind of how to do it. And so I'm giving him the blowjob. And then he says, I'm gonna come. I don't know what that means. I figure, like, come where? What are you talking? Like, are you sitting up like that? You know, I didn't know what that meant. And then it came in my mouth, and I said, something came out. Something came out. And I, like, ran to this thing, and I was like, I thought he peed in my mouth. My first thought was, oh, my God, he peed in my mouth. But then I'm like, this doesn't. I mean, I've never tasted pee, but it doesn't taste like what I think pee would taste like. And it was just so much confusion, so much body discomfort, and so much comedy gold now.

[Anna Martin]

I mean, I'm making these sort of, like, sad laughter because, like, there are parts of this, just as there are parts of this book that are funny. Like, there is humor here. There is humor in being like, what the heck is this? You know? But then you sort of zoom out and you understand. You see the comedy in which, you know, this is happening in the power dynamics that are operating here. And so it is. It doesn't. It's like humor alongside of this other thing. I mean, after this happened, do you remember how you felt where you're like, I did it. Like, he's. I've got him. Like, I'm keeping him. What. What was the. What was your feeling, if you can remember?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

No, I think I felt very shaky and uncertain. And I don't. I didn't think I'd done a good job. Like, I. You know, growing up as that people pleaser. I was really always rating myself on the performance of how much I was accommodating somebody else's needs and desires. So it was you. How did I do on that blowjob? Oh, I don't think I did well, you know, and so then it was just stress of thinking I hadn't really done well and I got better. Don't worry.

[Anna Martin]

I was freaking out to know you worry.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

But, you know, I'm glad you bring up this humor thing too, because I think, you know, I think it's an important piece of all of this. I think there's so much humor and levity in dark subject matter and to pretend there isn't is actually denying the truth of it. And I think there's a way of. There's a way where humor can make something flippant or undermine the subject matter. And I don't like that. I don't think that. I think that's kind of deflective and a defense mechanism. And I generally don't enjoy reading those things, watching those things. They just don't resonate with me. But I do think there is an element of humor and tragedy that can be really honest and really, I think otherwise something can just be too kind of melodramatic and insincere in that way.

[Anna Martin]

Huh. Is there another moment from this time in your life, from this relationship that has that kind of. That you think about with some amount of humor? Is there another moment that comes to mind?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I mean, literally every element of my life that was happening at that point?

[Anna Martin]

Jeez, Yeah.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I was 18 on a Nickelodeon show in a relationship with a 30 year old person while my mom was dying. And this sort of juxtaposition, the highs and lows of that world were oftentimes really funny. You know, it was hard at the time, but there was certainly humor in almost any given room at any given time. And maybe I wasn't able to see it then, but I think nowadays, I think somewhere in my, you know, Maybe mid, late 20s, it shifted. Mid 20s, where I could kind of see the humor a little bit more in real time. It didn't take, you know, 10 years of perspective or whatever to find the humor in something happening currently.

[Anna Martin]

We'll be right back.

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[Anna Martin]

The sort of ending of this relationship that you were in, can you describe how, how you left it? How things, how things ended or stopped?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I left his ass. Yeah, I did okay.

[Anna Martin]

Hell yeah.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Okay.

[Anna Martin]

I mean, as much as you want to share about that, I would be curious to hear.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I was still acting at the time and I was going away on a shoot to Canada. I want to say I've heard it too. Toronto. Yeah. I was trying to remember if I was doing a shoot in New York or if it was a different thing in Toronto, but I think it was the Toronto one. And I just had this feeling of life is in front of me. I had actually broken up with him once before and there had been multiple. He had broken up with me, I had broken up. It was again, that kind of a thing. But. But I had broken up with him as my mom was dying.

[Anna Martin]

Geez, Jeanette.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

This was kind of before this Toronto situation, but as my mom was dying because I felt like my thinking was this, I will bond with him too much by like leaning on him and expecting the support from him and going through this experience with him. That's gonna bond me too much that I don't know if I'll get out. I don't know if I'll be able to.

[Anna Martin]

You will bond with him during this time when your mom was dying and you might not be able to extricate yourself. So better to get out now.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I felt like I May be stuck, I may be trapped. And that's a. I really don't like to feel stuck or trapped in any way. I like to feel free.

[Anna Martin]

How long were you two seeing each other? All told, with the ups and downs.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

It would have been like maybe a little over two years. With a couple, like, short breakups in.

[Anna Martin]

Between in the relationships in the years that followed, I mean, you had other relationships. Would you. Would you think about this guy? Would like something clue you? No, not at all. Huh? You're shaking your head. Yeah, not at all.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

No, I literally. It was truly. I think by the time I move on from things, I am ready to move on. I have tried everything. I have exhausted all options. I am confident in my decision. And that goes for literally. I mean, I can think of so many things, relational and otherwise, that once I move on, I'm going. I'm not looking back. There's. I've wasted enough time on this already. I'm good.

[Anna Martin]

Huh? But then this anger resurfaced. Why do you think it resurfaced now? Like, what was it or not now in the moment of writing this book? Why? What brought it back up?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I've thought about that. I've explored that. I think what it is is that in our 30s, we as women, we finally have this space to reframe our relationship with our past self in a way to meet her with more. I'm actually getting a little goosebumps as I'm saying this must be true. Where it feels like, oh, I can see myself with more compassion than I had for myself before and more understanding. And, you know, our 20s are such a blur typically, and we're just. It's ambition and we're trying to find our way and it's a mess. And relationship is just. It's chaos and it's fun chaos and it's messy chaos and it's ugly chaos. But then by, you know, by 30, we've kind of started to maybe land somewhere, find our footing, settle in. There's space to reflect in a way that maybe we didn't in our 20s. And I think it really opens up our relationship to our past self in a way that we didn't have access for previously.

[Anna Martin]

Oh, my gosh. From 1:30 something woman to. I'm like, yes, it's so true. But I think what you're saying is very spot on, at least with my experience. This is the first time in my life, this age where I feel like I have that space to reflect, to process, to look back at things, you know, and it seems like when you looked back at this relationship, anger was something that resurfaced, I guess. I wonder, like, in writing this book, do you look back on that relationship differently? Like, is that, do you see it in a new way?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yeah, I think that's one of the many, I think, superpowers of writing is it does lead to closure where there wasn't closure. And I think I felt, I didn't even realize that I didn't have closure about this thing, but I think I felt that. And I think there's a softness that's accessible through, I think, letting the rage out, letting it, you know, lead. There's now kind of a softness and dare I say, you know, an appreciation maybe.

[Anna Martin]

Wow. For that experience?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yeah, for that experience. It's, of course, very complicated and I have a lot of regret and it's not clean in any way, but I think, you know, I can either stay mad at it and hold onto that, or I can say, you know what? I've moved on from it, I have learned from it. It's informed who I am today and the choices I've made and how can I take value from it? And I think circling back to power, that's a way of finding power, because maybe I didn't really feel any at the time.

[Anna Martin]

This anger we're speaking of, who were you angry at? Him, Yourself? The world? Like, what, what was that anger directed.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Towards him and myself? And then I think my circumstances, assuming that some version of those circumstances maybe, you know, led me down that path or contributed to me landing on that path.

[Anna Martin]

Hmm.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Meaning, like, you know, for example, growing up Mormon and having such, such strict guidelines and rules constantly in regulations and, you know, being on kids TV and just feeling like I was supposed to be this one thing all the time, it's like a pressure cooker. It's like a shaken soda can. It's like it's gonna burst at some point. And what better way to burst, what better way for a people pleaser, Mormon, child actor, mommy's angel to burst than going, guess what my first relationship's gonna be with a 30 something year old man. Take that, everybody.

[Anna Martin]

Like Mike drop, huh? Yes, Yes.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I mean, I wasn't thinking that, of course, wasn't like, oh, I'm gonna do this to get back at people. But, you know, in hindsight, I do see elements of that for sure.

[Anna Martin]

What's on the other side of anger? Like, once you expel it, what's there? What's left?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Well, I, I don't even want to expel it. Like, I love anger. I'm so grateful for anger. I think it's led me to make every strong good decision in my life that I've made. Anger is what got me to get over an eating disorder. Anger is what got me to get into the right relationship, which is the one that I'm in now that I've been in for nine years. You know, anger is what got me to quit acting and say no more. Anger is what's gotten me anything good in my life.

[Anna Martin]

Wow. I mean, it sounds counterintuitive. I feel like I emotionally understand. But help me understand more. When you say, like, anger got me into this wonderful relationship. How did anger get you there? What do you mean by that?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Because I was so sick of previous relationships and how I behaved in previous relationships, how the other person behaved, what the dynamic was. And I just thought, you know, I've got to put in the work. And I would get, you know, self help books and I would look at YouTube videos of therapists and dating advice. And just I thought, I'm gonna figure this out. I'm too fucking mad. I'm gonna figure out how to do it right and how to do it better. I'm gonna heal the parts that need healing so that I don't rebuild, recreate these patterns. And it's hard work, but anger is so mobilizing that it can get you through, I think, any amount of work. Thank God for anger. I think sadness can really, for me keep me stuck and just in the trenches. And anxiety can keep me kind of debilitated and I'm not able to make a decision cause I'm too anxious. But my God, anger will get me off the fucking chair and making some decisions and moving forward and doing the work.

[Anna Martin]

This is sort of a classic question, but I think it's merited here. If you could talk to 18 year old you, 18 year old Jeanette, what would you say to her?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Run, run, baby, run fast, run far.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah, yeah, I really would.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I really would. You know, I mentioned earlier kind of an appreciation for the past and I do feel that. But I also think, truly, if I could tell myself anything, I'd say run. Because sure, you've got stories to tell now, but you would have had other stories to tell if you'd have just left those situations. Numerous situations.

[Anna Martin]

I think that's the first time I've heard that response. Run. And it was immediate. It was immediate. Oftentimes people are like. And I have, you know, just be gentle with yourself. You're like, get the hell out of Dodge. Wow. Jeanette, thank you so much for this conversation.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Thank you, Anna. It's been so. Rich. I was gonna say fun. Fun is appropriate. Rich is appropriate. But it just feels fulfilling. So thank you.

[Anna Martin]

The Modern Love team is Amy Pearl Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lange, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Reeva Goldberg and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Sarah Curtis. It was edited by Lynn Levy and Jen Poyant. Our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez. Original music in this episode by rowan Nimisto, Pat McCusker, Diane Wong, Carole Sabaro, Alicia B. Itupe, Marian Lozano and Dan Powell. Dan also composed our theme music. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones. Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we've got those instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.