There's a Better Way for Couples to Talk About Money

Summary

Podcast Summary: Modern Love – “There's a Better Way for Couples to Talk About Money”

Host: Anna Martin (The New York Times)
Guest: Ramit Sethi (author, host of "How to Get Rich" and "Money for Couples" podcast)
Date: November 19, 2025

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Overview

This episode of Modern Love dives into why money is one of the hardest topics for couples to discuss and offers actionable strategies for having better, more connected conversations about finances. Host Anna Martin is joined by financial educator Ramit Sethi, who fields listener questions and explores how emotions, upbringing, and partnership shape our money habits. Sethi emphasizes the importance of curiosity, vulnerability, and having a shared vision—what he calls a “rich life”—when it comes to merging love and money.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Why is Money So Difficult to Talk About in Relationships?

• Cultural Scarcity & Lack of Education
  • Ramit explains that families rarely discuss money openly, often using only phrases like “We can’t afford it.”

    “We rarely have a structured understanding about money... it's almost like you’re wearing smudged glasses.” (Ramit, 03:06)

  • People grow up with fragmented or confusing ideas about finances, which they unconsciously bring into relationships.
• Mismatched Expectations
  • Most people never consciously develop their own philosophy toward money, unlike with food preferences.

Emotional Meanings Behind Everyday Money Conflicts

• Recurring Fights Aren’t About the Money
  • Common couple arguments about buying daily treats (like iced tea) are stand-ins for deeper differences in values and upbringing.
  • Ramit stresses,

    “It is not about the iced tea. It is two different people looking at it two different ways... Instead, they spend 35 years arguing about ice tea.” (Ramit, 05:24)

• Importance of Exploring Each Other’s Money Stories
  • True connection comes from curiosity about the meanings and emotions underlying spending habits.

Defining “A Rich Life” Together

• Personal and Shared Visions
  • “A rich life can be traveling two months a year… or taking your kids to school every morning… Your rich life is yours and my rich life is mine.” (Ramit, 06:26)
  • It’s critical for couples to ask: What kind of life are we building together?
• Beyond Judgement: The D2C Principle (“Disparagement to Curiosity”)
  • Shift from judging spending (“Why do you do that?”) to exploring it (“Can you tell me about that?”).

    “Whenever someone asks us about money, they're about to judge us... We know we're going to get judged so we start to shrink.” (Ramit, 08:35)

Origins: Family Lessons and First Money Talks in Relationships

• Ramit’s Upbringing
  • Immigrant family, rarely ate out, learned to value togetherness and resourcefulness over abundance.

    “We would order two Cokes for our entire family and share them... That's how I grew up.” (Ramit, 10:53)

• Meeting His Wife Cassandra
  • Money became a real topic only when getting engaged and discussing a prenup—a moment met with curiosity rather than defensiveness.

    “Her response was actually the best response I could have possibly hoped for... ‘I don't know much about it, but I'm willing to learn.’” (Ramit, 15:43)

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Listener Questions & Advice

1. Helping a Partner with Retirement Accounts (Michelle's Case)

• Issue: Michelle wants boyfriend to open a Roth IRA; he feels patronized.
• Advice:
  • Don’t lead with numbers or “logic,” address the emotional and relational context instead.

    “Math is not going to solve an emotional problem.” (Ramit, 20:50)

  • Avoid parent-child dynamics (chaser-avoider pattern), focus on shared vision.
  • Begin with a gentle, vulnerable “first positive money conversation,” e.g.:

    “Hey, I actually want to talk to you more about money, and I want us to feel connected... Right now, I feel scared and behind. How about you?” (Ramit, 16:22)

2. Gender, Independence, and Splitting the Check (Elle's Case)

• Issue: Elle and her boyfriend always split costs, but she wishes he’d treat occasionally.
• Advice:
  • Start with appreciation, acknowledge discomfort, and make a direct, honest request.

    “Just ask for what you want. This is so important. Couples who've been married 22 years... I go, have you ever asked them what you want? Not that directly.” (Ramit, 28:42)

  • When large income disparities exist, discuss proportional contributions instead of strict 50/50 splits.

    “If you make three times more, you pay three times more for the joint expenses…because what's 50% to me is a lot higher than what's 50% to you.” (Ramit, 30:40)

3. Guilt, Debt, and Homebuying (Celica's Case)

• Issue: Celica hid past credit card debt from her partner; now feels guilty and behind as they try to buy a home.
• Advice:
  • Don’t let past mistakes define your self-worth; focus on shared goals.

    “You do not have to go through the rest of your life atoning for it. You can actually build something beautiful and connective with your boyfriend.” (Ramit, 35:32)

  • Beware “hot” emotional language and pressure around milestones (“we’re behind”).
  • Homeownership shouldn’t be religion; renting can be preferable. Always use real calculators, not cultural pressure.

    “Sometimes buying a house may not be the right financial decision... You need to run the calculations.” (Ramit, 37:27)

4. Planning for Retirement vs. Enjoying Life (Stuart's Case)

• Issue: Stuart wants to save for kids’ inheritance; his wife wants to spend while they still can.
• Advice:
  • Saving is only one skill—spending meaningfully is just as important.

    “The point of money is to use it to live a rich life... I also consider it a tragedy to end your life with way too much money, having never built the skill of spending it.” (Ramit, 41:07)

  • Stuart was encouraged to take his kids to Paris with him now, not just imagine it after he’s gone.

    “Take them with you and show them what it’s like to have spent a lifetime working and saving and now to be able to share this...” (Ramit, 42:19)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On why money fights persist:

  “What ends up happening is, instead of having the right conversation—‘how did I grow up, how do I see money, what is our vision together?’—they spend 35 years arguing about ice tea.” (Ramit, 05:24)

• On curiosity:

  “We have never been genuinely asked out of curiosity, not judgment, about our money.” (Ramit, 08:33)

• On first positive money conversation script:

  “I want us to feel connected...right now, I feel scared and behind. How about you?” (Ramit, 16:22)

• On income inequality in couples:

  “If I asked [my girlfriend] to go 50/50 on some trip, it would have financially drowned her. That's not fair.” (Ramit, 30:28)

• On spending skills:

  “Building the skill of spending money meaningfully is something I would bet most listeners have not worked on.” (Ramit, 41:17)

• On living intentionally:

  “Life is not—a rich life is not lived in a spreadsheet.” (Ramit, 43:48)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Why Money is So Hard to Discuss: 02:11 – 06:18
• Defining “A Rich Life” and Using Money as a Tool: 06:18 – 07:30
• Practical Conversation Scripts for Couples: 16:22 – 17:47
• Listener Q&A (Retirement Accounts): 19:57 – 24:59
• Listener Q&A (Splitting the Check): 25:11 – 32:07
• Listener Q&A (Debt & Homebuying): 33:52 – 39:27
• Listener Q&A (Saving vs. Spending in Retirement): 39:38 – 44:02
• Closing Reflections on Money, Connection & Practice: 44:02 – 44:43

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Tone & Takeaways

Ramit Sethi brings humor, warmth, and practical scripts to normalize and defang money conversations. Couples are encouraged to replace judgment with curiosity, start small and positive, and develop both saving and spending skills. A “rich life” is defined by vision, values, and connection—not spreadsheets or rules.

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For listeners seeking to shift how money is discussed in relationships, this episode offers hope, empathy, and the tools to start where it matters: together.

Transcript

[A]

What happens when an ancient rose farm in France becomes an open sky laboratory? And how can a cosmetology program in India offer a road to economic empowerment? Hi there. I'm Isabella Rossellini. And in the latest episode of this Is Not a Beauty podcast from l' Oreal Group, we speak to an organic flower farmer and a beauty school graduate and how beauty shapes business. Listen now on your favorite podcast platform.

[B]

Love Now.

[C]

And did you fall in love last fella? I love her love.

[A]

But stronger than anything you love for the love love Can I love you more than anything.

[C]

There's still love. Love.

[B]

From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love. So last week I talked to a woman who was so tired of doing that awkward dance at the end of a date. Should I pay? Did you pay? Should I, Should I pretend I want to pay? Should we split it? She was so sick of that that she asked a guy who she barely knew to open a joint bank account. That was a very unusual solution to a common problem. Money is so hard to talk about in relationships. Figuring out what to spend on, what to save for, who's in charge of making what decisions. It's tricky stuff. Recently I asked you to tell me how money issues are showing up in your relationships. You send us your stories. Thank you. Thanks for that. And today we have someone here to help. You might know Ramit Sethi from his Netflix show How to Get Rich or his podcast, Money for Couples. Ramit has a lot of practical advice for couples about how to be smart with money. But even before that, he has to get them talking about money without fighting or crying or shutting down. And he does that by figuring out what money means to them emotionally. So today, Ramit Sethi on how to have a money conversation that actually feels good. He answers your questions and talks about what it takes to live a rich life. Whatever rich means to you. Ramit Sethi, welcome to Modern Love.

[C]

Thanks for having me.

[B]

Ramit here is. I'm sure I'm not the first person to make this joke. The million dollar question, why is money so. So hard to talk about with the people we love?

[C]

Well, if you think about how we treat money, especially in America, it's actually no surprise parents rarely talk about it to their kids. The only phrase that they typically use ever is, we can't afford it. And as you grow up, where do you learn about money? From movies? From TV shows, maybe? It's like we create this tapestry and we put this story and that on uncle and that aunt et CETERA but we rarely have a structured understanding about money. And then just think about the terms that we hear around us. 401k. I can't think of a more confusing term that's a turn off.

[B]

When someone said Roth Ira, I'm like, who's Roth?

[C]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Totally.

[C]

So imagine this. You go to be 25, 35, 40, whatever the number is. And maybe you get into some kind of relationship. You yourself rarely have a point of view on money. Like most of us have a point of view on food. We know what type of food we like or what type of food makes us feel good. We don't have the point of view on money, though. Then you partner up with somebody who equally does not have a point of view, and suddenly we don't even know what we're actually talking about. It is a very difficult way to go through life. Almost like you're wearing smudged glasses. So everything you look at is a little confusing, maybe a little tinged with scarcity. And that is why so many people I talk to who end up eventually maybe making more than they ever thought, they still feel behind with money. Why? Because it's not about the numbers. It is about the way that you feel when it comes to money.

[B]

And then you. Let's say you get into a relationship, get married, start building a future with someone who has their own smudged glasses on. And this creates even more of a problem. Yeah.

[C]

Because you're usually not speaking about the money itself. So one of the most typical disagreements that I will see when I speak to couples on my podcast is one person disagrees with how much the other spends at Target. For whatever reason. It's always Target. It is. I'm like, please, can we not do this again? And, you know, if I can just be very honest with you, please. Your rich life has got to be bigger than Target. Your rich life has got to be bigger than buying a freaking Tide detergent and other commodities. There's got. And I like Target, but it's gotta be more than that. Okay. The other disagreement is, why does my partner go to the gas station and buy energy drinks every day? This is outrageous. And, you know, I recall this Instagram DM I got from somebody based in New York who said, ramit, can you speak to my husband? Because he wastes money. Every day he buys an iced tea. Why is there such a disagreement about the iced tea? It is not about the iced tea. It is two different people looking at it two different ways. One person saying, hey, I earn a lot of money. I work hard I'm gonna get an iced tea. It's a nice little break in the middle of the day. The other saying, when I grew up, we did not get iced tea. We made it at home. And those different visions of money, the couples rarely go into that level of detail. How did I grow up? How do I see money? What is our vision together? Instead, they spend 35 years arguing about ice tea.

[B]

I mean, in this instance, how did you work through or how did you suggest this woman work through this T issue?

[C]

Well, first of all, she stopped responding to me, so I didn't have the.

[B]

Chance to help her.

[C]

But that's typically. Look, I help who I can, all right? But this is a very common dynamic on my podcast, and two partners will disagree over everything from eating out to paying for their kids college education. There's scale.

[B]

There's a scope.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. But the principle is the same. And I'll tell you that the most common problem when it comes to money in relationships is, is the lack of a shared rich life vision.

[B]

Let's take a step back. Just for folks who aren't familiar with this concept, you speak about it a lot. What is a rich life?

[C]

A rich life can be traveling two months a year. A rich life can be buying a beautiful cashmere coat. A rich life can be taking your kids to school every morning. So your rich life is yours and my rich life is mine, and they are going to be completely different. Very rarely do we elevate ourselves and ask the big questions, hey, what is all this for? What kind of life are we building together? And that could be tangible. Sometimes it, like when I was a kid, we could not afford to buy appetizers. We never did. Like, it was just like a taboo part of the menu in the once every six weeks that we ate out. Right. And so part of my rich life in my early 20s was to be able to order appetizers. Now, when it comes to you and or your partner, these are the kind of questions that I really want you to start by asking, what is our rich life? And they could be inexpensive. They could be quite luxurious. But we start with the vision, and then we use the money to try to get there.

[B]

I love this. And it's like, I want to return to this example of the tea because it does feel so, you know, universal. We all have a. A tea in our life.

[C]

Right.

[B]

The person who's buying tea. Or maybe we're the person buying tea. So how would we apply the concept of a rich life to addressing that conflict?

[C]

Okay, first, I want to suggest a principle called the D2C principle. And this stands for disparagement to curiosity. Instead of saying, why do you do that? That's such a waste of money. Saying, like, hey, can you tell me about that? I notice you love it every day. And I just love to know, like, where do you go when you buy it? What do you feel? What does it mean to you? And you might be so surprised that there are so many things to learn about your partner, even after 25 years of marriage, by going to this level of curiosity. We have never been genuinely asked out of curiosity, not judgment about our money. Whenever someone asks us about money, they're about to judge us. Oh, how much did that handbag cost? Oh, why did you get that car? And we know we're going to get judge, so we start to shrink. But what we're doing is recalibrating. When I ask somebody, hey, it turns out you love to travel six months a year. I go, that sounds awesome. Where do you go? How do you stay in shape? What kind of food do you eat? And I am genuinely curious. And that's why people open up.

[B]

Let me ask you this. Like, would the goal be to get this person to stop spending money on the tea? Or what's the goal of this kind of conversation?

[C]

Maybe. Maybe it turns out you actually cannot afford it. So by asking the questions of what it means, you can ultimately both together navigate to finding another way to accomplish that goal. That's one possibility. Another possibility is that you have more money than iced tea will ever affect. And so it actually is about connecting on a deeper, more emotional level and then going and looking at the numbers and realizing, like, we could buy 10 iced tea a day and it will affect us. 0.

[B]

Y' all should go get iced tea together. How sweet would that be? Hearing you speak about money, you're so energized by it. You speak its language. You're so fluent in it. Can you share, you know, experiences, memories that you have growing up that shaped your relationship to money? Maybe watching your parents, maybe something else.

[C]

My parents are huge role models in the way that I look at the world. And they're immigrants from India, and when they came here, you know, they did not have a lot of money. My dad worked. My mom stayed home with us. We have a pretty big family, and I remember lots of little things that really shaped my world. I remember my mom would cook dinner for us every night, and we would almost never eat out. Like, I'm talking once every six weeks when we had a coupon to go to pizza. And those restaurants were really memorable for us because one, like, just getting to eat out was awesome, but it was a big deal. You know, we would ask our dad for two quarters to play the arcades, but not more than that. Like, that's too much. And we knew kind of, like, what was on limits and what was off limits. And I actually really appreciated what else was off limits.

[B]

Just to.

[C]

It's so vivid.

[B]

You said appetizers.

[C]

Appetizers, desserts. I have to admit, I don't. I shouldn't admit this. We would order, like, two Cokes for our entire family and, like, share them.

[B]

You know, I mean, we would water down the lemonade. I totally feel you. Yeah.

[C]

I mean, yeah. That's how exactly. Watering down everything, right? Oh, the shampoo's running out. Put some water in it.

[D]

Boom.

[B]

You're also painting a picture of an incredibly happy childhood. I mean, you tell me, but it sounds, you know, overall, very warm and beautiful. Like, what did those experiences. What did they teach you about what money was for, what its value was?

[C]

You know, my. My dad told me something a few years ago that really. It led me on to the fact that he had a vision that I was not aware of. So we're talking about a house. And he said, you know, one day, when you buy a house, don't get too big of a house. And I said, why? I just thought, like, we didn't have that big of a house because we couldn't afford it. That's the reason. And he goes, yes, okay. You know, we bought what we could. But if you have too big of a house, kids go into their own corner and they don't congregate. But if you have a small house, everybody gets together, and that's how you build a family. I thought to myself, like, wow, my dad did the most advanced possible thing you can do, which is turn a weakness into a strength. And the fact that we couldn't buy some mansion, like, we didn't care. We're just kids. But actually, we ended up spending a ton of time together. And I'm still very close to my siblings and my parents, and so that is a rich life. Notice that it's not an abundance of money. It's actually working with what you got. But having a beautiful vision, which my dad only kind of recently let me into.

[B]

When you met your wife, Cassandra, I'm curious where you were in terms of your relationship to money. And really, actually, I think the more interesting question is, do you remember the first time money came up With Cassandra early on in your relationship?

[C]

This is a great question. Well, I met her in New York. We were both living in New York, and I met her at a barbecue. And I remember it vividly because she had a huge smile. Like a unusually beautiful big smile.

[B]

Aw.

[C]

I love just how vibrant and positive she was. And it's funny because on our first date, we went to the East Village, and we went to this Mexican cocktail bar, and I accidentally spilled an entire glass of water on her. Like, a whole glass. And I still remember her reaction. She just laughed, and I was like, oh, my God. Like, that kind of positivity, that was so attractive, so appealing. And so, you know, we began dating seriously, and I think probably money came up the first couple of times, like when we took a trip, which is actually quite common for couples, you know, like, that's the first time you really talk about money. And so there's that. But I think when it became, like, really serious when we substantively talked about money was when we got engaged and we started discussing a prenup. And that really changed everything.

[B]

Bring me into that.

[C]

So I don't know anyone growing up who had a prenup. Me neither. And I thought it was cultural, but it was also probably socioeconomic. I just didn't know people who were wealthy and, you know, as. As you grow. Grow in business, you know folks. And there's a lot of tacit knowledge that's passed down. And so it's like, hey, what is a prenup? Well, most of us, when we think about a prenup, we think it's some rich asshole who's trying to screw over their partner. You know, they're driving outside of a limousine, they throw some papers out, they sign this shit. I'm like, that's not a pre. That's actually just a Richie Rich episode. That's not like a prenup. So I learned how it worked, and I was like, oh, this is basically talking about what happens with your premarital assets, the stuff that you might have before you get married. So let's say one partner owns a house or another has a business. You kind of want to decide in the worst case of separation what would happen to those assets that were acquired before the marriage, knowing that in almost all cases, anything acquired during the marriage is split. So I remember we sat down, and I'm like, my hands are freaking shaking. And I said to her, you know, I have something that's really important to me. You know, I've built up this business and this portfolio, and it's important for me that we discuss a prenup.

[B]

And why were you nervous? What were you nervous that she would perceive that as.

[C]

These conversations are so filled with, like, secondary meanings? So I was worried about rejection. I was worried about being misinterpreted. I was just worried about it all. I'd never done it before.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So her response was actually the best response I could have possibly hoped for. She said, okay, I didn't expect that. I don't know much about it, but I'm willing to learn. Great, Amazing.

[B]

Etc.

[C]

Yeah. Disparagement to curiosity.

[B]

Disparagement to curiosity. There you go. Yeah.

[C]

And that was the beginning of us actually meeting as to what money meant to us. It's not just numbers. It's actually what it means to us.

[B]

For people who are avoiding these types of conversations or frankly, are scared to have them, because I think that's a legitimate emotion. Like, what would you say to give them courage?

[C]

I'm actually going to tell them exactly what to say. And I will call this, this from my book, called your first positive money conversation. And I use that term on purpose because most of us actually have never had a positive money conversation. We've only berated or judged or had that happen to us. So in a positive money conversation, you go to your partner, you say, hey, I actually want to talk to you more about money, and I want to feel good about it. I want us to feel connected. So that's part one of the conversation. Just tell them why. It's gonna be awesome. That's it. Then next you say, you know, right now, when I think about money, I feel scared. I feel in the dark, and I feel behind. How about you? Now notice what you're doing. You're leading with vulnerability, and then you're tossing them the ball. This is not a monologue. You want them involved. And if they don't have an answer, that's okay. You don't have to push it, but you're giving them an opportunity. Third, you say, you know, when it comes to money, I want to feel competent, I want to feel calm, and I want to feel connected. How about you? And then the fourth point is just when should we talk about money? Next. That's it. Give each other a big old kiss and call it a day. We don't need to get into your freaking asset allocation. On meeting one, all you got to do is give each other a hug and feel good. That's it.

[B]

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[B]

Years, MultiCare has been in Washington prioritizing long term solutions, partnering with local communities and expanding access to care. Together, we're building a healthier future. Learn [e-mail]. One thing you're pointing out, which I think is really important here, is that the way into a conversation about money is is to lead with feelings and vulnerability. And I think that's very, very apropos to many of the questions we receive from listeners who want your help when it comes to their money and relationship problems. Here is our first advice seeker. This one is from a woman named Michelle.

[A]

Okay, so you asked about finances and this argument literally happened last week. I have been talking about opening a Roth IRA for my partner because I had done one over a year ago. So this last week I wanted to set one up for him and it turned into an argument because he said I'm treating him like a baby and that this was something he can do. So I explained that I had brought this up a couple times and he never once tried to do it on his own. And I don't understand what the problem is because this is bettering our future or even his future if we ever split up because we aren't married, so it would be his money. But anyway, it's just been very frustrating and now it's like it's been a week. Do I bring it up again? Do I just leave it alone?

[B]

What do you think about that?

[C]

Very common and I am so glad that we get to talk about this because there are layers here. The most common response people will often have is like, well you just gotta show em the numbers and show em the math and blah blah blah. Math is not going to solve an emotional problem. I wish I could go back in time and tell 22 year old Ramit Sethi that. I wish I could hear that myself, but that will not move the needle. I can also hear some really interesting context from Michelle. Michelle says, a year ago I opened my Roth IRA and now I'm telling him why don't you open your Roth and it'll be good for us, et cetera. But if we are really candid, if I had come to Michelle three years ago and said, Michelle, why don't you open up a Roth ira? You know what she would have said? Nah, I don't know, it's fine, whatever.

[B]

Yeah, well maybe I don't know Michelle.

[C]

So this is so common that when one person goes through a process of self development, whether it's relationships, fitness, money, we then turn to our partner who has not gone through the same journey and we expect them to meet us where we are. That's not how it works.

[B]

That's a really good point.

[C]

That's where compassion comes in and systems. So here's what I want to point out. I guarantee that the two of them do not have a shared vision for a rich life. And candidly she's probably right. Like technically he probably should open up a Roth ira. It's an amazing account. But just going in there is the equivalent of me jumping in and saying you need to get new shoelaces. Like why, what's the context here? Like why is a shoelace fixed? My. And also shoelace is a lot of work and I don't even know where to get a shoelace. Okay, I probably, from the way that she's talking, I suspect there's probably a bit of parent child dynamic. I hear that a lot in couples that I speak to. You'll often find one partner who will take on the role of a parent. Like you need to do this and then guess what, the child kind of avoids it. So we have a chaser avoider dynamic as well. The more they avoid, the more you chase and this becomes quite toxic over time. Therapists deal with this all the time. This is why I recommend my guests see a therapist. It's very, very helpful. But overall I think that what I would suggest to Michelle is zoom out, do that first money conversation, get a little buy in. Realize you don't have to solve everything on the first meeting. This might actually take nine months, it might even take 12. But when he is bought in, it is going to be smooth because you will not have to be the convincer that the two of you will actually be doing it as a team. And so start there. Start with the vision. Ask what is our rich life? What do we see our life being? How does money fit in? Maybe we should read a book together and learn how this works. Can I do chapter one? You do chapter two and then work your way towards a Roth IRA and more.

[B]

I guess my sort of final question on this is like how much, how involved is too involved in a partner's finances?

[C]

Excellent question for somebody like Michelle. One thing that I want to encourage her to do is to set your expectations. What do you expect from a partner? For example, if I'm dating, I might say, look, I expect that any partner that I'm dating saves and invests at least 10%. That's just important to me. That's a value thing to me. And for Michelle it might be. I expect that a partner that I'm dating is investing X amount for their retirement and you're not telling them you're bad or you need to do this. But like this is what I expect from a partner of mine. What do you think about that?

[B]

It's interesting. It's like a first step for Michelle here is introspection for herself. And then you laid out a good roadmap of a compassionate sort of curious and long term discussion that she and her partner can start having about sort of what does the future look like for us. Roth IRA included or Rothschild Roth IRA not included.

[C]

Yeah, the question is really not about a Roth ira. The goal is to live a rich life together.

[B]

Michelle. Hope that was helpful and certainly I think it was. Let's go. Now you're speaking about dating and money, which is something I'm personally interested in. So let's play this next one. This one is from Elle.

[A]

Hey, Modern Love. I have been dating someone very seriously for the past two years and we are both in our 60s ever since day one. Because I'm very independent and I can afford my own way. I've always paid for myself. It would be so nice if one night when we're out to dinner he picked up the check. But he absolutely never does. He has recently gone through a terrible divorce. It was like War of the Roses because they were both very wealthy and I feel like he has some ptsd maybe where he does not want to spend money on another female. I would love some advice on how I can bring this up to him or do I just continue paying half?

[C]

Wow.

[B]

A lot there. I mean, I wonder. We did this earlier. I wonder if you could, like, script almost a way for El to bring it up or another way into this conversation.

[C]

Yeah, well, first off, Elle sounds lovely, and this sounds like a very reasonable request. I didn't hear anything unreasonable from that. She said, we split it. I would like for him to pick up the check occasionally. That seems exceedingly reasonable to me. How to bring it up, particularly with his divorce, can be a little tricky. So what I might say is, for ease of use, let's just call him John. So, you know, John, I just wanted to let you know that I love spending time with you. And one of my highlights is when we go out to eat every weekend. And I just wanted to have a conversation with you about a topic that might seem uncomfortable. Money. And I know until now we have split, and that is perfectly fine with me. As you know, I'm independent. I'm happy to do it. But it's also important to me that as we go through life more, as we become closer, that we think about what a partnership looks like, a team. And if I can just be really honest once in a while, it would be nice if you picked up the check. How do you think about that? How does that strike you? So let's pause right there. A couple of things that may not be the perfect conversation, but you can adapt it for your needs. Elle, couple of things I want to highlight that I did there for everybody listening. One is I always start with an appreciation. This is a little tip that I learned from my own therapist. Start with an appreciation. Hey, I love being able to. To talk to you about money. Two, acknowledge that you want to talk about something that might be a little uncomfortable and give them an out. Give them an out. Say, hey, if this doesn't feel like the right time to talk, let me know. We'll talk about it in a few days. No problem. And then three, just ask for what you want. This is so important. I find this to be a very, very. I talked to couples who've been married 22 years, and they're dancing around it, walking on eggshells. I go, have you ever asked them what you want? And they go, not that directly. I go, not directly at all. Why don't you ask right now? And they do for the first time in 20 years.

[B]

That's incredible.

[C]

There is so much power in number one, being rooted in yourself and saying, look, it's okay for me. To want this. They don't have to give it to me, but at least I can ask. And then for your partner to listen. And hopefully, if they are reasonable, they might react as Cassandra did and say, hey, like, I don't know anything about that, but I'm willing to learn. That's a great answer. Or they might say, you know what? I never thought about it. Like, would you mind if I think about it a bit more? But I love you. Of course. I would love to pick up the tab once in a while. That's another way.

[B]

Another thing that was later on in this voicemail we couldn't play at all is Elle told us that her boyfriend makes a lot more money than she does. Several times more. Does that change your thinking about this question at all, or is that something you. Yeah, okay, 100%.

[C]

What the hell? How did I not get that bit of intel? All right, now we need to adapt things a little bit. Okay? Things change when there are income differences, particularly when you are not married. So I'll give you an example. When Cassandra and I were dating, I was making more money. If I asked her to go 50, 50 on some trip or something that we were going to take, that would have been totally unfair because I made more than her. It would have financially drowned her. That's not fair. So one thing that I recommend is to go proportional again. If you make three times more, you pay three times more for the joint expenses. I probably wouldn't do that on, like, dinner out. That's just a bit weird and overly transactional. But there are so many different ways to apply that one. You could both say, hey, we're each gonna put in some money to eat out every month. How much do we think we eat out? Let's just make the math easy. $100 per month. So the person earning three times more puts in three times more towards that hundred dollars. Right. And then whoever wants to physically pick up the check that time could.

[B]

So in terms of El, though, I just want to be clear before we move on. So it's like the fact that he makes so much more. How would that change the conversation that you suggested to her initially? Would it change it?

[C]

Yes, I think it would. And I think that this takes some delicacy, but it could be done. So, you know, number one, same thing, Start with an appreciation. Hey, I really appreciate and I love that we can go out, et cetera. I want us to be a team when it comes to us going out to eat. And, like, just for example, who pays? How do you think about that. And he's gonna say, well, you know, fine with me. It's working. And she'll say, you know, I agree that until now it has worked. And again, I really love our time together. I can't help but notice that, you know, you make a lot more than I do. And so what's 50% to me is a lot higher than what's 50% to you. Now, I'm not here to nitpick over your income. That's yours. But what I really want to try to do with the two of us is to build a partnership together. And for me, a partnership does not make as much sense if we're doing 5050 when the income is so different. I also think that this might be a candidate for if they already see a therapist. This is a fantastic opportunity to bring this up in therapy because a skilled facilitator can certainly help with this one.

[B]

We'll be back in just a moment. Stay with us.

[D]

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[B]

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[C]

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[B]

Okay, let's go to our next listener. This is a question to you from Celica.

[A]

My boyfriend was really clear at the beginning of our relationship that financial security was really important to him. And a year and a half into a relationship, my boyfriend found out that I had been lying about having $18,000 in credit card debt. I remember crying because I knew that I had broken trust and I expected us to be over right then and there. And he stopped and he said, this is what we're going to do. And he came up with a plan to take care of my debt. And it was a very difficult year, but we managed to pay off my credit cards in that year. And after July, I will be debt free. The problems that we're facing now are we are in our late 20s, we're almost 30, and we are desperately trying to save our money to get a house. And I'm stressed out and upset because I feel like we're behind because of me. And he does a great job at not putting the blame on me, but I know that he is not where he wanted to be at this point in his life.

[B]

I feel like there's a lot there. But, yeah. I'm curious your immediate reactions to that.

[C]

Well, first, I just have to recognize the beautiful way that love shows up with money. I mean, no, I don't think she should have hidden the debt. I think that's a very tough and bad decision in relationships. But the way that her boyfriend stepped up is pretty amazing. And the way that the two of them went through it is quite impressive. People having debt is one of the things that makes people feel the most ashamed. And, Celica, my suggestion for you is that you are more than guilt. You can be somebody who has learned from a bad decision in the past. You do not have to go through the rest of your life atoning for it. You can actually build something beautiful and connective with your boyfriend. And most importantly, you can actually accept that you are more than this one thing that you did in your life. You are so much more than that. The solution is to take a step back, zoom out, ask each other. What is our rich life? What's our vision if we want to buy a house? Why? How long do we plan to stay there? What are the numbers? Ooh, you're about to get me riled up on this one. So I just want to point out some phrases I heard. Desperately. We desperately want to buy a house. We are stressed, we are behind, and there is blame. Notice those words. They are what I call hot emotions. They're very hot. Like, there's a fire. And with money, I want us to bring it down. I want these emotions to be cool, calm, and collected. That is how we want to relate to money. Okay? We do not want to be making hot decisions. I hate my life. It's so bad. No. Cool. Even if you have credit card debt, you can be cool about it. My debt payoff date is February 2032. Cool. I'm going to say something that might surprise a lot of listeners, which is sometimes buying a house may not be the right financial decision.

[B]

I think this is a really interesting sort of tenet of yours. Speak on that.

[C]

Why, in America, our primary religion is homeownership. And you can tell it's religious because people don't use actual logic. They use trite little phrases like, you're throwing money away on rent or why would you want to pay your landlord's mortgage? It's interesting that we don't use the same phrases when we go eat sushi. Oh, you're throwing money away on sushi. You're paying your sushi owner's mortgage. Why do I care? I'm getting good sushi and they're doing my dishes for me. It's great. But when it comes to homeownership, we genuinely believe that you. The only way to create real wealth is to buy a house. And if we don't buy a house, we're a loser. I will share something quite surprising, which is that I have rented. My wife and I have rented, and I've personally rented for over 20 years, and I've made more money renting than I would have owning a lot more. So sometimes renting and investing the difference can be a better decision than buying a house. The key principle here is you have to carefully run the numbers. You can run what's called a buy versus rent calculation. Actually, the New York Times has a fantastic calculator which I would highly recommend. And you will discover, for example, in Manhattan, just as a very obvious example, it actually makes no financial sense to buy same thing in Menlo park or in Atherton, very expensive Palo Alto, but also now in cities like Seattle and even other cities. In fact, it is cheaper to rent than to buy in 100% of the top 50 US metro cities right now. So why am I sharing this with you? I need you to take the biggest financial decision of your life seriously. I need you to actually run the calculations. You need to understand what an amortization table looks like. You need to understand that your total cost of ownership should be. Should be Primarily less than 28% of gross, but maybe up to 32 or 33. If you don't know what any of those words mean, you're not ready to buy a house.

[B]

As a renter who has no plans to buy, I find that very validating. But we have one more for you. This is from a guy named Stuart.

[C]

My wife and I have been fighting bitterly over the last few years about money, but this is about money in terms of estate planning. We're in our young 70s, we're relatively healthy and we have a lot of energy. My wife wants to spend as much money as is possible now while we can enjoy it. I fear that we might outlive our money knowing the catastrophically high costs of long term care. Also, I want to be able to leave as much as possible to our three children. I have this fantasy that they're going to be in Paris uncorking a bottle of champagne, enjoying foie gras and toasting us. Thank you.

[B]

What do you think about this? This is not the only voicemail we got of this sort where there is. And I imagine you also get this question a lot. A couple who has these polar opposite approaches to money, the spender versus the saver. What's your put there?

[C]

It's very common and I speak to many couples where one has been future oriented for decades. We need to save, and typically it goes like this. We need to save enough to get a house they buy. We need to save enough to do the basement. We need to save enough to send the kids to school. Now we need to save to send them to college. And meanwhile, the saver is typically accumulating quite a bit of money. It starts to become a little bit absurd. Like what about actually living for today? And this is why my work is called I will teach you to be rich. It's not called I will teach you to hoard money in a high yield savings account. The point of money is not to save it. The point of money is to use it to live a rich life. Part of that involves saving and investing diligently. I agree. But part of it involves building the skill of spending money. And that is something that I would be willing to bet most listeners have not worked on. So there's three real skills. The first skill when it comes to money is earning money. That's your career, your job, that kind of thing. Most people, they're decent at it, you know, they think about it a lot. Okay, cool. The next skill is managing your money. That is saving and investing and setting up the right structures and accounts. Yeah, I think some people are pretty good at this. They spend some time on it. The third skill is the skill of spending money meaningfully. And almost nobody does this. Now to Stuart's question. Yeah, I do agree that you should be planning and know that you're not gonna run out of money. But I wanna also point out that I also consider it a tragedy to end your life with way too much money, having never built the skill of spending it. And in fact, Stuart says, I have a dream of my three kids popping champagne in Paris. Hey, Stuart, why don't you take your kids to Paris? What are you talking about? You wanna be looking down from heaven? Take them with you. Take them with you and show them what it's like to have spent a lifetime working and saving and now to be able to share this with your loved ones. And while you're there, Stuart, take your wife on a little trip and tell her, babe, I love you. And yes, I know that I want to save money, and sometimes I might be a little bit into spreadsheets, but that's because I love you. But I'm also listening. And I know that it is our time to experience these things around the world. That is why I brought the kids here, and that's why I'm also spending time, just you and me.

[B]

That is really quite full circle to me, actually, because we started off with that example of the guy who's buying the teas, and we said one thing that they could do is buy the teas together. And I really like that suggestion. Stuart, take the kids, and why not stop at that? You and your wife go on a wonderful trip to a place that you've wanted to go to do that together, be connected.

[C]

Stuart, send us a picture. This is the kind of stuff I love, is seeing couples using their money and creating these magical experiences. Life is not a rich. Life is not lived in a spreadsheet. That is so important for all of us to understand.

[B]

You know what? I will also say, Ramit, before we head to the close, is like, the way that you respond to these questions that are deeply vulnerable is incredibly soothing because you're able to say with real sincerity like, this is normal, or I've seen this, or yes, here's a plan, here's a script, and the kind of black box that finances, money and emotions can become like. I find your approach very calming, which is. And grounded and connected.

[C]

Thank you. And for you, to use the word connected is, to me, the highest praise. So I really appreciate that.

[B]

Ramit, thank you so much for this conversation and thank you for your advice to our listeners. I'm sure it will resonate.

[C]

Thank you.

[B]

The Modern Love team is Amy Pearl, Christina, Josa Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Reva Goldberg and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Reeva Goldberg. It was edited by Davis Land and Jen Poyant. Our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez and we had studio support from Matty Masiello. We want to say a special thanks to Larissa Anderson. Original music in this episode by Carol Sabaro, Diane Wong and Dan Powell. Dan also composed our theme music. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones. Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we have the instructions in our Show Notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.

[D]

We've all done it. Stock our fridge with good intentions only to sacrifice nutrition for convenience. Keep your body and mind nourished with whole body meal shakes from cachava. It's got 25 grams of protein, 6 grams of fiber, greens and so much more, but it actually tastes delicious. Try one of Cachava's indulgent flavors today. Shop now through December 2nd. To get 30% off your first purchase of two or more bags, go to cachava.com and use code NYT. That's K A C-A-V A.com code NYT.