To Share or Not to Share? How Location Sharing Is Changing Our Relationships

Summary

Modern Love Podcast Summary: "To Share or Not to Share? How Location Sharing Is Changing Our Relationships"

Release Date: June 25, 2025
Host: Anna Martin
Guest: Arlen J. Staggs

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Introduction to the Episode

In this compelling episode of Modern Love, host Anna Martin explores the nuanced role of location sharing in contemporary relationships. Drawing inspiration from real-life stories submitted by New York Times readers, the episode delves into how the ability to share one's whereabouts impacts trust, intimacy, and boundaries among family members, partners, and friends.

Listener Stories: The Impact of Location Sharing

Anna begins by sharing various listener experiences, highlighting both the positive and negative facets of location sharing.

Positive Experiences

1. Parental Care and Safety
   Anna recounts her father's nightly ritual of checking the "Find My Friends" app to ensure that she and her siblings are safely at home:

   "Ah, my three little chickadees at home in their nests." (00:36)

   She emphasizes how this simple act fosters a sense of love and security within the family.

2. Facilitating Daily Logistics
   A listener shares how location sharing aids in daily coordination:

   "On multiple occasions, my mother has called me to say, 'I'm lost. How do I get to wherever it is she was going?'" (02:00)

   Another listener praises location sharing for helping find their way during a hiking mishap:

   "I was so, so grateful that we had the tracking device available to us because I don't think I would have found my way back." (03:00)

Negative Experiences

1. Invasion of Privacy and Jealousy
   One listener narrates how mutual location sharing among friends led to insecurity and jealousy:

   "She started just obsessively checking our locations... So I had to end the friendship basically over that." (04:55)

2. Obsessive Behavior Post-Breakup
   A college student describes how location sharing became a source of anxiety after a breakup:

   "I started very obsessively checking her location at all hours... I need to stop. I want to feel free." (05:07)

Anna summarizes that while some find location sharing enhances their relationships, others experience it as a source of tension and discomfort.

In-depth Interview with Arlen J. Staggs

The episode transitions to an intimate conversation with Arlen J. Staggs, a Modern Love essayist, who shares his personal journey with location sharing amidst family tragedy.

Arlen's Background and Early Life

Arlen recounts his childhood in rural Alabama during the 1980s, characterized by freedom and familial bonds:

"Whatever you picture of a boy growing up in rural Alabama, that's exactly what it looked like in the '80s." (07:27)

He describes the close-knit yet chaotic environment with his brothers and the loving, albeit intrusive, presence of his mother.

Decision to Share Location with His Mother

Upon moving to California to embrace his identity and independence, Arlen initiated location sharing with his mother at her request:

"She would be like, 'Can you turn on your location on your phone so that we can see you?'" (11:02)

Initially, this was a means to provide peace of mind to his mother, allowing her to follow their daily progress:

"It was kind of fun for her to see how far we got each day." (11:53)

Family Struggles: Brother's Mental Health

Arlen discusses the deepening family challenges following his brother Paul's struggles with mental health:

"He was diagnosed with cannabis-induced psychosis... things got worse." (20:40)

Paul's paranoia and eventual disappearance heightened the emotional stakes of location sharing within the family.

Father's Passing and Its Impact

In 2022, Arlen's father unexpectedly passed away during a routine heart procedure, compounding the family's grief:

"At Dad's funeral... I prayed that God would show us where he is." (25:14)

The dual grief of losing both his father and later his brother added layers of complexity to his relationship with his mother.

Re-establishing Location Sharing Amid Grief

Four months after Paul's disappearance, Arlen learns of his death in Las Vegas and returns home to inform his grieving mother. This pivotal moment leads him to reinstate location sharing:

"I needed it. And I almost felt like... being a little boy again." (31:05)

Arlen reflects on how location sharing became a source of comfort, symbolizing a return to a sense of safety and connection.

Reflections on Boundaries and Relationships

Arlen contemplates the intricate dance between maintaining boundaries and navigating grief:

"We're also talking about this dance between boundaries and grief and how the two interact." (31:55)

He acknowledges that setting boundaries is not merely a technical decision but deeply intertwined with emotional healing and familial love.

Conclusion: The Complexities of Location Sharing in Modern Relationships

Anna and Arlen conclude that location sharing transcends a simple technological feature—it embodies the complexities of love, trust, and personal boundaries in relationships. The episode underscores that while location sharing can be an act of love and protection, it also requires thoughtful consideration of each individual's comfort and autonomy.

Arlen's heartfelt narrative serves as a poignant reminder of how digital tools intersect with our deepest human connections, especially in times of joy and tragedy.

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Notable Quotes:

• "Ah, my three little chickadees at home in their nests." – Anna Martin (00:36)

• "I want to feel free." – Unnamed College Student (05:07)

• "I needed it. And I almost felt like being a little boy again." – Arlen J. Staggs (31:05)

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This episode of Modern Love offers a profound exploration of how technology shapes our most intimate relationships, inviting listeners to reflect on their own practices and the balances they strive to maintain.

Transcript

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[Anna Martin]

Love now and did you fall in.

[Arlen J. Staggs]

Love Last fella I love but stronger.

[Anna Martin]

Than anything for the love love and.

[Arlen J. Staggs]

I love you more than anything there's.

[Anna Martin]

Still love love from the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love. Our show is inspired by the Modern Love column and by all the messiness of trying to love, trust and stay connected to other people. One way my dad likes to stay connected is with a ritual he does basically every night before bed. He pulls out his phone, fires up the Find My Friends app and sees that me and my two sisters are at home in our apartments. And when he sees that, he sends a text to the family group chat that says something like Ah, my three little chickadees at home in their nests. It's simple, it's sweet, it's it's a way he expresses his love. And it's made possible by location sharing. We recently asked you to tell us how location sharing affects your relationships and you filled our inbox with stories about the people you're sharing your location with and the people you're not. I share my location with a bunch.

[Arlen J. Staggs]

Of my friends and my parents and my brother.

[Anna Martin]

We've been together for about three years. We've shared locations since the start. My ex husband and I are still sharing location. My children are out and about at.

[Arlen J. Staggs]

Night and we're trying to see where they are late, if they're past curfew, for example.

[Anna Martin]

At first I didn't even want to.

[Arlen J. Staggs]

Do it because I just kind of.

[Anna Martin]

Felt icky about it.

[Arlen J. Staggs]

Right now I don't need to know where my girlfriend is 24 7.

[Anna Martin]

I'm happy that we were sharing location services because I got to find out very early that he was cheating on me. He is getting married in two days and still shares his location with his.

[Arlen J. Staggs]

Ex girlfriend because why not?

[Anna Martin]

What is there to hide your experiences with location sharing were there's kind of no other way to put this all over the map. A handful of you absolutely unequivocally refused to share your location with anyone anywhere, ever But a lot of you said it adds something really valuable to your lives. On multiple occasions, my mother has called me to say, I'm lost. How do I get to wherever it is she was going? And I could look at her location and tell her how to get there. She loves the feeling of being taken care of that she gets from having me watch her, which is the exact opposite of how my adult children feel about sharing their location with me. My brother David has Down syndrome, and when I see him every once in a while, he'll just, like, open up his phone, and he'll show that both of us are in the same place, and he'll just burst out in happiness. Probably about 45 minutes or so into the hike, I realized I was pretty lost. I couldn't make heads or tails of the map that I had, so I ended up calling my partner. He was actually able to locate me on the map. I was so, so grateful that we had the tracking device available to us because I don't think I would have found my way back. So I would recommend it for couples who maybe directionally challenged like myself. On the flip side of that, there were stories like this next one, where location sharing started off okay, but took a bad turn.

[Unnamed Friend]

I moved to a new, much larger city. So I was a little nervous about being away from my hometown for really the first time, away from all the people who would typically know where I should be and if something terrible happened to me. So it was a relief to make two really good girlfriends and all agreed to just share our locations with one another. But it definitely ended up feeding into one of the friends just insecurity, jealousy, the fact that she could always check our locations. She started just obsessively checking our locations, and we'd get a text. Hey, didn't realize y' all were hanging out tonight. Why didn't you invite me? Or, hey, I see you're at my favorite coffee shop. I would have loved an invite. So I had to end the friendship basically over that.

[Anna Martin]

Being able to see someone's location is almost like having a superpower. But like any superpower, it must be used responsibly. And sometimes that means just turning it off.

[Unnamed College Student]

The relationship kind of ended on uncertain terms. And in this uncertain period of kind of breakup kind of knot, I started very obsessively checking her location at all hours. We're on a college campus in a very kind of contained radius, and it started turning into, like, not just, like, psychological anxiety, but, like, a physical manifestation. Like, I just would not feel comfortable around her or even anywhere because I knew exactly where she was. And one night I was walking alone on the street and it was dusk and I had my headphones in and was listening to some sort of melodramatic music and opened my phone and looked at her location and all of a sudden there was just kind of a snap of like, I need to stop. I want to feel free.

[Anna Martin]

It's clear that location sharing has changed something fundamental about our relationships. Whether you opt in or whether you opt out, someone in your life is probably going to feel some type of way about it. And everyone seems to need their own roadmap for where to draw the line. Today on the show, I talk to a modern love essayist who has wrestled deeply with drawing his personal line around location sharing. And he tells me how a family tragedy made the stakes of that decision feel exceptionally high. Stay with us.

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[Anna Martin]

When Arlyn J. Staggs was a little kid, he had a lot of room to wander.

[Arlen J. Staggs]

Whatever you picture of a boy growing up in rural Alabama, that's exactly what it looked like in the 80s. There were all of these trails through the woods and creeks and our parents never knew where we were.

[Anna Martin]

Arlen was the youngest of three boys, but his older brothers, Paul and Hank, they still let him in on a lot of the action.

[Arlen J. Staggs]

We had a great childhood, especially for boys, because we were throwing rocks at each other, shooting bottle rockets at one another. I mean, it was dangerous boy stuff.

[Anna Martin]

Throwing rocks at each other.

[Arlen J. Staggs]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

And just like that 80s movie that's probably playing in your head right now. Arlen could always hear his mom's voice in the distance when it was time to come running home again.

[Arlen J. Staggs]

I could be half a mile away in the woods and I could hear my mother's voice calling me. She would go out on the back deck and just yell. It was like a wild, animalistic mother calling her, trying to find her young out in the woods.

[Anna Martin]

As Arlen got older, he started to feel a need for a different kind of freedom. His parents were religious and conservative and he felt like he didn't quite belong in their world, especially as he realized he was gay. So he decided to put some distance between himself and his hometown.

[Arlen J. Staggs]

I remember driving to college and playing my U2 cassette. I remember seeing it at the top of my lungs. I remember the roads were windy and taking those sharp curves just like, you know, with abandon. And I think that was kind of the first moment I felt free.

[Anna Martin]

Eventually, Arlen landed in California. He came out to his family, which in time, they accepted. Then he got married and built a life on his own terms. But even many years later, he still had lingering feelings about what it meant to be the son who left. And he told me that when his mom started tracking his location, things got more complicated. Arlan J. Staggs. Welcome to Modern Love.

[Arlen J. Staggs]

It is my pleasure to be here. Thank you.

[Anna Martin]

So, Arlyn, after growing up in this tight knit family in Alabama, you decide to leave the south and go live in California. How did your mother feel about that?

[Arlen J. Staggs]

She was devastated. You know, my parents ended up teaching at the high school that they graduated from. They lived in the same hometown their whole lives, which there's something very sweet about that, and I love that for them. But I think just California was so. I mean, in distance, yes, it's far. But just in mindset and culture, it's so far away for them.

[Anna Martin]

Did you feel guilty for moving so far away?

[Arlen J. Staggs]

Yeah, in some ways I still do. It's almost like there's an agreement we all had, and I broke that agreement. Even though we never stated that agreement. Nobody ever said, you know, we never sat down and said, okay, in this family, you're not allowed to move to California. Does everybody agree? But I knew I wasn't supposed to do that.

[Anna Martin]

Can you tell me about how you first started sharing your location with your mom? Whose idea was it?

[Arlen J. Staggs]

I remember it being her idea, but I was not resistant to it at all. So Drew is my husband. He and I had a vacation rental in Florida. We lived in San Diego. But we would drive back and forth. And the first time that we did it, my mom was like, can you turn on your location on your phone so that we can see you? So I thought, this is a great idea, because if something did happen, somebody would know where we were. And I think she found a lot of peace in kind of following our daily progress. It was kind of fun for her to see how far we got each day. And it took about four days to drive across the country. She would be like, well, I see you're in Arkansas, or it looks like you're getting close or you made really good time today or whatever.

[Anna Martin]

But then at some point, location sharing with your mom started to become kind of a problem. Can you tell me what happened with that?

[Arlen J. Staggs]

I think when I started to notice that she would see me in a location and then make up a concern about it, then it became an issue. So one time I took Chip, my dog, to the vet. And my mom called later that day, and she was like, is everything okay with Chip? And I was like, yes, he's fine. Why? Like why? And why are you asking?

[Anna Martin]

Do you know something I don't know?

[Arlen J. Staggs]

Yeah, yeah. She said, well, I just noticed that you were at the vet's office today, and I worried that something bad happened. And by the way, nothing was wrong with him. It was literally just like an annual checkup. That was the first time I was like, okay, that's a little bit too invasive. Stop watching me like, you know, like, it's none of your business that I'm at the vet. And so I waited probably a few days, and then just kind of once I knew she was. Had gone to bed, and it was late in Alabama and maybe still early in California. I just, you know, discreetly unshared my location.

[Anna Martin]

Did she notice?

[Arlen J. Staggs]

Yes. Yeah, but. But it took her a while. I turned it off, and maybe two or three weeks later, she was like, hey, I can't see your location anymore. You know what happened? So after that, I turned location sharing back on, and then one day, I'm running errands, my phone was in my pocket, and I was unknowingly butt dialing her. And I did this probably seven or eight times, which, by the way, I'm very familiar with, because since my name starts with A, this happens to me a lot, so. Because I'm.

[Anna Martin]

You're talking to an Anna, my friend.

[Arlen J. Staggs]

That's right. No. Do you get butt dialed a lot, too? Yeah. So. But for me, I don't ever assume the worst. I just turn my phone off or whatever. But when I got back in the car and I realized that she had. I think she had even maybe called back each time, and she had texted me, like, what's going on and why do you keep calling me? And so I called her, and she had made up this whole story about how she was afraid that I had been kidnapped and locked in a trunk or maybe I was in a ditch somewhere and the only way I could communicate with her was like, butt dialing for help.

[Anna Martin]

She could see your location, couldn't she? See that you were in, like, a.

[Arlen J. Staggs]

She saw me in the Sam's Club, so I think she thought I was in the parking lot tied up in the trunk of a car.

[Anna Martin]

I mean, you're laughing now, but it sounds like she was really scared.

[Arlen J. Staggs]

Yeah. I mean, I don't know how committed she was to that interpretation, but that was the interpretation she had. And it was clear to me at that point that she's really going to a dark place about it. And I don't know how much it serves her to know where I am. And after that, I turned location sharing back off.

[Anna Martin]

Were you just turning on and off and on and off and on and off your location sharing for, like, years?

[Arlen J. Staggs]

Maybe for a year.

[Anna Martin]

Okay, okay.

[Arlen J. Staggs]

I usually blamed it on technology. That was my go to scapegoat.

[Anna Martin]

What do you mean?

[Arlen J. Staggs]

Is I would say, well, I would say, oh, my gosh, my phone must have updated again, or, you know, and it must have turned my location off. Let me turn that back on for you. Like, I would blame the iPhone. I would never say, yeah, well, I turned it off because.

[Anna Martin]

Why?

[Arlen J. Staggs]

This is one of those questions I have to think about, because I don't know, really. I guess it felt easier to just keep going through the process of turning it off than having a conversation about. Felt more efficient to press a button than to sit down and say, mom, let's talk about boundaries. Let's talk about what's okay and what's not okay. And there's this history of, I left. Where I'm from, I left home. So I don't know if I just took on that, like, I was the bad son that didn't stay, or. It was never about her seeing me at the vet and getting upset about what might or might not have happened to Chip. It was always about this unresolved, kind of broken agreement.

[Anna Martin]

Hmm. That does not seem like something your mom was saying to you, right? Like, this was something you were saying to yourself.

[Arlen J. Staggs]

Absolutely.

[Anna Martin]

So in addition to location sharing maybe not being so helpful for her anymore, it strikes me that it also was not so helpful for you. Right. Like, it's making you talk quite unkindly to yourself.

[Arlen J. Staggs]

Yeah, for sure.

[Anna Martin]

But part of you. I really want to understand this. Like, part of you felt like you owed her this information about where you were.

[Arlen J. Staggs]

Yeah, 100% I felt like I owed it to her, I think. Especially after my brother Paul went missing.

[Anna Martin]

We'll be right back. This podcast is supported by the Sam Sanders show from kcrw. Do the Oscars even exist? Have streaming apps made music bad? Can pop culture predict A recession. Each week, Sam and his guests ask big questions and offer hot takes about the entertainment we're obsessed with. Join comedians, journalists and celebrities as they make sense of the zeitgeist, or at least make fun of it. Catch the Sam Sanders show wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube. Arlen, can you tell me what happened with your brother Paul?

[Arlen J. Staggs]

I guess the catalytic moment, or the catalyst for all of it was when my mom got a phone call from the Alabaster, Alabama Police Department, and they had picked my brother up on Interstate 65. He had pretty extreme paranoia. He was hearing voices in his head and he was running from people he claimed were trying to kill him. And, you know, this was a very shocking phone call to get because Paul had always been a little troubled. And as a kid, I just remember him being grounded a lot and, you know, lots of teenage door slamming and loud 80s metal music playing from his room. And that just kind of continued through his life. You know, like, he was just constantly unsettled, but he was never at that level of, you know, a mental illness. And so that was kind of the first moment that kind of, in a sense, woke us all up to, like, something deeply troubling is going on with Paul.

[Anna Martin]

Did you eventually find out what was happening with Paul at the time he.

[Arlen J. Staggs]

Was diagnosed with cannabis induced psychosis.

[Anna Martin]

Okay.

[Arlen J. Staggs]

Um, and what doesn't make sense about that to me is from what I've read about that is most cases, they can be that severe, but then it kind of goes away. It tapers off. And his did not. His continued and even got worse.

[Anna Martin]

When you say things got worse, can you share a little bit about what that means?

[Arlen J. Staggs]

Yeah, he. Well, they got a little better in the beginning because they gave him some medication, which helped. And he lived with my parents for a while. And the deal with my parents was, you know, they said, you can live in our home as long as you need to, but you have to take your medication. And one day he just said, you know, I don't want to take it anymore. I'm going to leave. And he did.

[Anna Martin]

And then what? Did you know where he was?

[Arlen J. Staggs]

No. I mean, we would get these calls. The first call that mom got was from Tallahassee. And the authorities in Tallahassee had essentially rescued him from some kind of pond or swamp. I remember they mentioned that there were alligators in the body of water that he was in. And he always called the people that were trying to kill him the goons. And he was claiming that the goons had put poison on his skin. So he was in that water trying to wash the poison off of his skin.

[Anna Martin]

Oh, my gosh.

[Arlen J. Staggs]

And then they got a call from Tyler, Texas, and it was a psychiatric hospital. And the nurse had a conversation with my mom. And I remember mom said that her brother, the nurse's brother, also had a similar condition. And she was like, unless they take their meds, there's really nothing you can do. And. And that was the last call that mom got, I think.

[Anna Martin]

What was it like not knowing where Paul was? What was that like for you, emotionally?

[Arlen J. Staggs]

I'd like to say that I had this deep concern for Paul, and I really wanted to go out and help Paul. But I think Hank and I both became very protective of mom because she was worried about Paul enough for everybody that I was starting to see her lose herself in that loss. And she would get lost in telling us all the specific details over and over and over again. We would go all the way back to Alabaster, Alabama, and exactly what the police officer said on the phone, exactly what the receptionist at the hospital was wearing, exactly what the muffin tasted like in the cafe where she bought a muffin. I think it was her way of saying, this is how we got here. And I need to make sense of how I lost my son.

[Anna Martin]

Arlen. Not too long after that, your family experiences a really sudden loss. Can you tell me what happened?

[Arlen J. Staggs]

Yeah. Yeah. My dad went in for a heart procedure in 2022, and he was just going to have, like, a stent replaced. It's supposed to be a very easy procedure. You know, they don't even use anesthesia. But when they were done with the procedure, they fixed the stent and he coded and he didn't make it.

[Anna Martin]

Oh, my gosh. I'm so sorry.

[Arlen J. Staggs]

Thanks.

[Anna Martin]

That is so much for your family to go through.

[Arlen J. Staggs]

Yeah. Well, I remember at Dad's funeral, my brother Hank and I both gave a eulogy. I just remember stopping in the middle and I asked the congregation if we could pray for Paul. And I prayed that God would show us where he is. And four months later, he was found dead in Las Vegas.

[Anna Martin]

How did you find out about Paul's passing?

[Arlen J. Staggs]

I got a call from the coroner's office in Las Vegas, like, on Tuesday. I get the call. My mom's birthday is Wednesday, and then Thanksgiving is on Thursday.

[Anna Martin]

My gosh.

[Arlen J. Staggs]

So I called Hank, and I said, we need to go and tell Mom. I was in Florida at the time. He was in Nashville. So I get in the car, we meet at my mom's house. In Alabama. And, yeah, I remember turning on my.

[Anna Martin]

Location while you were doing the drive. You were doing the drive?

[Arlen J. Staggs]

While I was doing the drive. And we were gonna have dinner with her, celebrate her birthday, and then tell her. And.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah, when you did tell her, what was that like?

[Arlen J. Staggs]

I don't have the word for it, but when dad passed away, it was what I would call a very pure grief. Like. Like when we say grief, what we're talking about. When Paul passed, there was definitely grief, but it was mixed with relief and closure. And.

[Anna Martin]

You knew where he was?

[Arlen J. Staggs]

We knew where he was. And. And I remember both of us just holding her. She just cried and cried and cried for what felt like a really long time. And I remember I was. The position of my body was so uncomfortable. My leg was falling asleep and my back was starting to hurt, and. But I could not break that blob that we made by hugging her.

[Anna Martin]

What a word. I mean, it's just. Yeah, in a blob. You said when you were driving back home to tell your mother about Paul's passing, you turned your location back on.

[Arlen J. Staggs]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

Did you ever turn it off again?

[Arlen J. Staggs]

Yeah. I mean, maybe I had gone on one of my trips to reflect and grieve and pray, and I don't know what prompted me to turn it off, but at some point, I did turn it off again. And then a few months later, mom comes to visit me in Florida, and I was taking her back after her visit to the airport, and then I come in and I kind of walk her to the TSA line. And I remember I hugged her, said goodbye, I love you. I'm just kind of standing there watching her, and she hands her ID to the officer. She starts to put her bag up on the machine. And the sadness overwhelmed me. That scene of her doing all those things all by herself. I just felt like somebody should be getting on that plane with her. Somebody should be putting her carry on in the overhead bin for her. Somebody should be there with her. She's just kind of always been surrounded by these strong men, and now she's doing all this by herself. And by the way, not to. She's an incredibly strong woman. Not to invalidate her at all. And she wasn't falling apart. I was.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Arlen J. Staggs]

And then, you know, what's there underneath it all is just all the years that I had run away to California in all the years that I wasn't there, and the birthdays where I just called and sent flowers, and I wasn't there for the party. I went back to my car and just sort of allowed myself to cry, to cry about dad, to cry about Paul, to cry about her. And that was the moment when I'm sitting there in my car in the airport parking lot where I needed to share my location with her. Like, I needed it. And I almost felt like.

[Anna Martin]

It.

[Arlen J. Staggs]

Almost like being a little boy again. Like, there I was, lost in the woods, and I'm gonna say, here I am, and you don't ever have to wonder where I am. And. And that's when it started to give me peace, to know that she could get peace by looking at that.

[Anna Martin]

You know, Arlan, it's interesting you say that because we've been talking all this time about location sharing, but it strikes me that, you know, really what we're talking about is your family relationships. Right. Your complicated, joyful, devastating, beautiful family relationships. I mean, it's. It's.

[Arlen J. Staggs]

Yeah. And we're also talking about this dance between boundaries and grief and how the two interact, you know, because it was the grief that had the boundary fall away. And I think it's almost like. I think the simplest example of that is it would be really weird for me to pass you on the street, Anna, and then just grab you and hug you. But if I were to pass you on the street and I know you just lost your dog, it would not be weird for me to grab you and hug you because you're. Because the grief changes that boundary. And I think maybe that's what we're having a conversation about.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah. It's just so much more than toggling a little switch.

[Arlen J. Staggs]

It is. It definitely feels like an act of love.

[Anna Martin]

Arlen J. Staggs, thank you so much for this conversation today.

[Arlen J. Staggs]

It's been my pleasure. I've loved it. Thank you.

[Anna Martin]

If you'd like to read the essay that inspired this episode, you can find the link in our show notes. The Modern Love team is Amy Pearl, Christina Josa Davis Land, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Reeva Goldberg and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Reeva Goldberg. It was edited by Lynn Levy and Jen Poyant. This episode was mixed by Epheme Shapiro with studio support from Maddie Masiello and Nick Pittman. Fact checking by Will Peichell. The Modern Love theme music is by Dan Powell. Original music in this episode by Alyssa Moxley, Dan Powell, Marian Lozano and Pat McCusker. Special thanks to Mahima Chablani and Jeffrey Miranda. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones. Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times. We have the instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.