Were We the ‘Fat Couple’?

Summary

Modern Love Podcast Summary Episode: “Were We the ‘Fat Couple’?” | Release Date: October 2, 2024
Host: Anna Martin | Produced by The New York Times

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1. Introduction to the Episode and Main Themes

In this deeply personal episode of Modern Love, host Anna Martin delves into the complexities of body image, self-acceptance, and romantic relationships. Drawing inspiration from Courtney Hommeister’s 2023 essay, “Were We the Fat Couple?”, the conversation explores the challenges faced by individuals struggling with body insecurities within the context of love and companionship.

2. Courtney Hommeister's Story: Body Insecurities and Dating

Courtney Hommeister opens up about her lifelong battle with body image, highlighting how societal standards have profoundly impacted her self-esteem and romantic life.

• Struggling with Self-Perception:
  Courtney: “Being fat is a stupid reason to hate yourself. I'm sorry, it is.” ([02:19])
  She shares how her perception of beauty has been shattered by unrealistic standards, leading her to view herself as “ugly” because she doesn't resemble magazine models or the mannequins she sees online.

• Impact on Dating:
  Courtney: “Once I got to over £200, that's where I just thought, I don't want anyone touching my body.” ([07:00])
  Her insecurities made her avoid intimate relationships until her early thirties, when she felt societal pressures to conform to a certain body type to be deemed "dateable."

3. Relationship with Jason and Overcoming Body Shame

Courtney recounts her relationship with Jason, a man who not only accepted her but also shared similar body image struggles, fostering a safe space for genuine connection.

• Finding Acceptance:
  Courtney: “When we were alone together, it was perfect and lovely.” ([09:56])
  Jason’s acceptance allowed Courtney to feel comfortable and authentic, contrasting sharply with her previous experiences that heightened her body shame.

• Public vs. Private Self:
  Despite their strong private bond, Courtney felt immense pressure when in public, fearing judgment and the labeling of them as the “fat couple.”

4. The Breakup: Motivations and Emotional Aftermath

As their relationship progressed, Courtney grappled with her lingering insecurities, ultimately leading to a heartfelt breakup.

• Trigger Point:
  Courtney: “I weighed myself, and I had gained back 15 pounds.” ([18:33])
  The realization of weight gain combined with her public insecurities pushed her to end the relationship, despite Jason’s unwavering support.

• Heartfelt Struggle:
  Courtney: “I just don't think I can be that fat couple among our friends.” ([19:43])
  Her decision was rooted in internal conflict rather than any shortcomings in Jason, highlighting the profound impact of self-image on personal relationships.

5. Jason Rouse's Perspective on the Breakup and Friendship

Jason Rouse joins the conversation to provide his side of the story, emphasizing his understanding and the strength of their enduring friendship.

• Responding with Grace:
  Jason: “My wife and I... it was something that really resonated with people.” ([28:57])
  He describes Courtney’s essay and breakup as a moment of personal growth, expressing pride in her candidness and the broader impact of her story.

• Maintaining Friendship:
  Jason: “There was nothing to forgive. It had nothing to do with me.” ([33:16])
  He highlights the purity of their friendship post-breakup, underscoring mutual respect and continued support despite the romantic dissolution.

6. Reflections and Insights from Courtney

Courtney reflects on her journey towards self-acceptance and the ongoing nature of her battle with body image.

• Self-Love Struggle:
  Courtney: “The battle isn't with my weight. The battle is with my brain and with recognizing that my body has nothing to do with my worth as a person.” ([24:33])
  She emphasizes the mental aspect of her struggle, advocating for a shift in self-perception rather than focusing solely on physical changes.

• Progress and Coping Mechanisms:
  Courtney: “If I find myself saying something horrifying to myself now, I apologize to myself.” ([25:40])
  She shares practical strategies she employs to combat negative self-talk, illustrating her progress in fostering a healthier relationship with herself.

7. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

The episode culminates in a profound acknowledgment of the complexities surrounding body image and love. Both Courtney and Jason exemplify resilience and the power of authentic connections beyond societal judgments.

• Enduring Friendship:
  Jason: “She’s so spectacular... she’s essential.” ([34:35])
  Their continued friendship serves as a testament to overcoming personal challenges and maintaining meaningful relationships beyond romantic ties.

• Open Invitation to Listeners:
  Anna Martin invites listeners to engage with the Modern Love community by sharing their own stories, fostering a supportive environment for discussions about love in its myriad forms.

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Notable Quotes:

• Courtney Hommeister at [02:19]: “Being fat is a stupid reason to hate yourself. I'm sorry, it is.”

• Courtney Hommeister at [07:00]: “I don't want anyone touching my body. I don't want to be naked in front of anyone.”

• Courtney Hommeister at [19:43]: “I just don't think I can be that fat couple among our friends.”

• Jason Rouse at [33:16]: “There was nothing to forgive. It had nothing to do with me.”

• Courtney Hommeister at [25:40]: “If I find myself saying something horrifying to myself now, I apologize to myself.”

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This episode of Modern Love offers a candid exploration of the intersection between body image and romantic relationships, providing listeners with heartfelt insights and inspiring narratives of self-discovery and enduring friendship.

Transcript

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[Anna Martin]

Hey everyone, it's Anna. Before we get started today, I want to tell you about something new we're doing with the Modern Love Podcast and all New York Times podcast. And let me just say, the work we do, we do for you. You, our audience. We truly think about you all the time. We ask ourselves, what do we want our listeners to feel when they hear a modern love story? What's fun or messy or interesting to them right now? How can we tell this story in an empathetic way that connects people to each other and to themselves? So with that, here's the news about Modern Love. You've probably heard ads during our show talking about how quality journalism is worth paying for. We hope that's a belief you share. Starting soon, we're going to be asking people to subscribe subscribe to the New York Times. If you subscribe, you'll get full access to every episode of our show and all other New York Times shows on Apple, Podcasts and Spotify. Sometimes subscribers will even get special content. If you're already an eligible time subscriber, you'll just need to log into your subscription to get access to all of that content. If you don't subscribe, you'll still be able to hear the latest episodes, but the full archive will only be available to Times subscribers. We genuinely hope you will become a subscriber because you want to listen to all your favorite episodes whenever you want, because you believe that what we're doing is worth supporting. So that is our big news. You can go to nytimes.com podcasts to learn more. Enjoy the show and thanks as always, for listening.

[Courtney Hommeister]

Being fat is a stupid reason to hate yourself. I'm sorry, it is.

[Anna Martin]

Ever since she was very young, Courtney Hommeister has had a mean voice in her head telling her she's the wrong size.

[Courtney Hommeister]

I think I just thought I looked ugly. You don't look like the people in the magazines. You don't look like the mannequins. You don't look like your friends. That is ugly.

[Anna Martin]

Courtney's insecurities made dating hard for her. But then she finally started seeing a guy who made her feel differently.

[Courtney Hommeister]

Generally, when I'm around men, I'm hyper aware of my body. When I was around Jason, I was just myself. And when we were alone together, it was perfect and lovely. But when we were out in public, that was where I ran into trouble.

[Anna Martin]

From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love. Each week, we bring you stories and conversations inspired by the Modern Love column. We talk all about love, sex, and the messiness of relationships. And today's story is definitely a messy one. It's adapted from an essay Courtney wrote in 2023 called Were we the Fat Couple? It's a question Courtney didn't want to be asking, but once she got it in her head, she couldn't let it go. Courtney Hameister, welcome to Modern Love.

[Courtney Hommeister]

Thank you so much.

[Anna Martin]

Throughout our conversation, I'm going to be asking you questions about your body, which, to be totally honest, I like, could sound kind of intrusive. So before we get into it, I just want to ask about the language you want to use. In the Modern Love essay. You wrote you use the word fat to describe yourself. Do you prefer that I use the word fat or a different word? I just want to make sure you know.

[Courtney Hommeister]

A friend of mine wrote me after this essay was published, and she said, you shouldn't call yourself fat. You know, don't do that. That's negative self talk. Fat is a descriptor. Fat is not an insult. It is used to describe we have additional adipose tissue in our body, and that means that we are fat people, and it is our culture's view of what fat is that turns it into a derogatory term.

[Anna Martin]

Are there certain words that are more comfortable than others? For you? It sounds like you are comfortable with the word fat.

[Courtney Hommeister]

Well, that's such an interesting. It's. I'm. I'm comfortable with the word fat. I am not comfortable being fat. If you're a fat person and you're walking down the aisle of an airplane, you just know every single person is thinking, please, God, don't let them sit next to me. You know, that doesn't feel great. My internalized fat phobia is so powerful that even after all of the reading that I've done and the extraordinary writers and activists who have talked about the horrible history of fatphobia, all of that doesn't matter. When I look at myself in the mirror and I tell myself I'm disgusting.

[Anna Martin]

Hmm. Do you remember the first time you started assessing the size of your own body.

[Courtney Hommeister]

I think that it was when I started getting bigger than my mother. My mother. My mother is beautiful and tiny. My mother probably weighs 100 pounds. She's about 5ft. And I think that when I was around 10, I started to get bigger than her. So I'm in middle school, and suddenly I'm a size 12. You know, she's like a size two, I think it didn't get really bad until I gained a pretty significant amount of weight right before college. You know, we talk about the difference between being overweight and obese, and there is this point at which you stop being kind of a heavier person and you turn into, like, that's a fat person. There was a point at which I stopped shopping with other people, because when you're a heavy person, you just can't. I don't want to stand in their stores and look around at all the things that I can never wear that don't look like a floral couch, and I don't want to drag them to my store where nothing fits them.

[Anna Martin]

When did you start to think about dating? How did your feelings about your body play into that?

[Courtney Hommeister]

I didn't.

[Anna Martin]

Huh?

[Courtney Hommeister]

I didn't start to think about dating. I mean, I dated. I dated in high school, and I was still a, quote unquote, normal size. Once I got to over £200, that's where I just thought, I don't want anyone touching my body. I don't want to be naked in front of anyone. So it's just really not a thought for me. I mean, I wasn't in my first real adult relationship until I was 34 years old, and I had gone on a diet. And so I felt like I looked like I could get a boyfriend.

[Anna Martin]

Wow. I mean, so it sounds like you felt like you had to be a certain weight to be dateable. Is that. Does that track?

[Courtney Hommeister]

Yes.

[Anna Martin]

In your essay, you mentioned that men, when you started dating, triggered your body shame. Can you give me an example of a time that that happened for you?

[Courtney Hommeister]

Yeah, I mean, I. This. This one is kind of subtle, but I had this boyfriend that I used to drive around a lot. And so he was in the passenger seat, and I was wearing these jeans. And as always happens when you sit down, when anyone sits down, your thighs get splayed out. And he looked over at me, and he looked down at my thigh, and he just poked my thigh. And then he just looked up at me and he kind of grinned. And he tipped his head just a little bit to essentially say, like, you're Gonna take care of that. Right. Like, it was very much like a, you know, that kind of taking in of the breath.

[Anna Martin]

I mean, how did you react in that moment? Were you like, hey, do not do that?

[Courtney Hommeister]

No. I wish that I could tell you that I had some fantastic comeback for him. I mean, I thought it was valid at the time. Right, right. That I hadn't worked hard enough to try to get the pounds off. So it was like, well, he's right. My thighs are a little bit bigger than when we first started dating. Certainly, like, the initial feeling is this sense of defensiveness and kind of, how dare you? But it's overridden by. I want to keep this person with me. It's not healthy in any way. It's. I'm not saying in any way it was healthy. And you. But you also have to remember, this was my first adult boyfriend at 34 years old.

[Anna Martin]

Okay. I wanna jump ahead about a decade to when you're 43 and you start seeing someone who makes you feel very different. This guy named Jason. I know you guys had worked together. You were friends. When did you know? The friendly feelings turn into butterflies.

[Courtney Hommeister]

I mean, for me, it was when he. Jason is a wonderful baker. He bakes these amazing brown butter chocolate chip cookies, but he hates bananas. He's like. He's, like, terrified of bananas and black beans and he made this banana cream pie with.

[Anna Martin]

But he's afraid of bananas.

[Courtney Hommeister]

I know. That's what was so amazing about it. He touched multiple bananas for me. It was beyond.

[Anna Martin]

If that's not romantic, I don't know what is. He touched and smelled bananas for you.

[Courtney Hommeister]

I know. Exactly. That's what did it for me.

[Anna Martin]

So when you got the pie, were you, like, okay, you're my boyfriend now?

[Courtney Hommeister]

I mean, of course. I'm not an idiot.

[Anna Martin]

But I mean, besides, you know, his obvious bravery with bananas, like, what else drew you to Jason? What other qualities did he have?

[Courtney Hommeister]

I mean, Jason has one of the biggest hearts of anyone that I know. I mean, he's just one of the funniest people that I know. He's one of the smartest people that I know. And I think that Jason truly cared for me. And he had this sort of. He had this sort of odd adoration for me at the time.

[Anna Martin]

Why odd?

[Courtney Hommeister]

Sometimes we would be watching a movie or something, and he would just reach over and he would just place his hand on my face.

[Anna Martin]

Oh, my God. Courtney, wait, wait. Can I just pause us and think about the way that the guy in the car poked your thigh?

[Courtney Hommeister]

Yes.

[Anna Martin]

And Then this tender gesture, this hand on your face. Yeah, my gosh. Like, what a difference. It sounds quite liberatory.

[Courtney Hommeister]

It was. I mean, I talked about in the essay what a huge part of it was that he was fat. Like, he was fat like me. And in fact, you know, Jason was in a bigger body than I was. Like, if you're talking about sort of fatigories, when we were alone together, we were essentially just two fat people hanging out together. And so I had no shame around my body, but it was the combination of his love for me and his caring where I could just be myself and unapologetically just be. Yeah, that's exactly what you're looking for. Who can I just be with? Not mask, not hide anything. And I think that had we never left the house, it might have worked for a long time, you know?

[Anna Martin]

Yeah, I mean, it might have worked for a long time in private, you're saying. But when you're out in public, it's a different story.

[Courtney Hommeister]

That's the thing. I had had a few comments made to me on the street when I lived in New York that were not fun to hear. But when you're a fat person and you're doing anything connected to food, unless you have a great self image, you tend to think about what people are thinking. Right. So I would think, oh, we'll walk into this restaurant and people will think, like, I hope they leave something for us. Or, you know, the grocery store was a big one where it was just like, I just. I don't want people, like, looking at our carts and judging us or the person who's checking us out, like, judging us.

[Anna Martin]

Can I ask you, would you feel this way when you went, for example, to a grocery store on your own, or was there something different about walking in with him? I want to understand that.

[Courtney Hommeister]

There absolutely was something different about walking in with him, because suddenly it's like, oh, there's a systemic problem in these people's house. Like, their family is problematic. And also, I mean, it's just doubled. Honestly, I do have some body shame when I'm in a grocery store, but it just felt like it doubled when I was with a second person. For me, the biggest one and the hardest one was walking into a party with our friends where I was just. I was like, I don't want to be the fat couple. It's not a moral failing being a fat person, but it's what I thought at the time.

[Anna Martin]

It sounds so lonely to walk into a party of your friends, you know, with your boyfriend and Imagine that they're thinking that about the two of you.

[Courtney Hommeister]

I wouldn't say that I felt lonely because I was with Jason and I was with my friends. What I will say is that it sucks the joy out of any situation having that internalized fatphobia. You can be at your wedding, you can be on the happiest day of your life, and then somebody snaps a picture and you're thinking, I don't want to see that picture. We are disrespecting the most joyful moments of our lives. It's terrible.

[Anna Martin]

How did you cope with all of these feelings? Were you talking to Jason about everything that was going on in your head?

[Courtney Hommeister]

No, no. That's the thing. I didn't talk to him about it until I broke up with him.

[Anna Martin]

When we come back, a breakup Courtney says she's really not proud of. And then we get to hear from Jason himself. Stay with us. AI is coming to your industry, if it isn't already here. But AI needs a lot of speed and computing power. So how do you compete without costs? Spiraling Upgrade to Oracle Cloud Infrastructure, or oci. OCI is the blazing, fast and secure platform for your infrastructure, database, application development, and AI workloads. Right now, Oracle is offering to cut your current cloud bill in half if you move to OCI for new US customers with minimum financial commitment. Offer ends December 31, 2024. See if your company [e-mail] NYT this.

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[Anna Martin]

Okay, so, Courtney, this breakup really starts with you trying on a pair of jeans. Can you tell me about that?

[Courtney Hommeister]

Yeah. So before I started dating Jason, I had lost some weight. I'd lost, I think, about like, £20.

[Anna Martin]

Well, that's interesting also, Courtney, because we talked about how you felt like you needed to be a certain weight to be dateable and if you lost weight before you met him. Yeah, that's interesting.

[Courtney Hommeister]

It is, actually, and I hadn't ever really thought about it, but, you know, clearly I had some threshold that it was like, okay, this body's boyfriend worthy.

[Anna Martin]

Interesting.

[Courtney Hommeister]

Yeah, interesting is a lovely, kind word to use to Describe that. Fucked up is. I would use fucked up. But you know what you do you.

[Anna Martin]

Anna, I think I can't say that. Like, my boss would get mad. I'm not actually sure. But, yes, I will say what she said, what you said.

[Courtney Hommeister]

Yes. But so I had. I'd lost a little bit of weight, and so I had this pair of jeans that I had gotten when I lost the weight, but I kind of sensed that I maybe, you know how sometimes you just kind of sense that you might have gained a little bit of weight? And so I thought, why don't I just try those jeans on and see if they still fit the same? And so I pulled them on and just. I was able to zip them, but I wasn't able to button them, and I was just barely able to zip them. I mean, it was a feat of engineering.

[Anna Martin]

How did you feel a sense of.

[Courtney Hommeister]

Dread that I was on this other track and now I'm back on this upward track that I can't get off of. Just the oncoming train of weight gain.

[Anna Martin]

That you cannot fight a powerless feeling.

[Courtney Hommeister]

Yes, absolutely. And so I was like, well, I'm gonna weigh myself and see how bad it is, because if I. That's the thing too. I always wanna know, how bad is it? So I weighed myself, and I had gained back 15 pounds. And so part of me was thinking, oh, it's the comfort of being with Jason. Like, we would just order whatever food we wanted. We'd watch movies. Like, it's the comfort of being with him. This happens all the time to couples, right? You get happy and you gain weight.

[Anna Martin]

Totally. What's it called? Happy weight or something?

[Courtney Hommeister]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I just immediately panicked and was like, I can't. I can't. I just can't do this anymore. And I think that in combination with my sort of shame when we went out in public together was what made me text him.

[Anna Martin]

What did you text him?

[Courtney Hommeister]

I just texted him that we had to talk.

[Anna Martin]

Oof. So what happened when he came over for this talk?

[Courtney Hommeister]

I let him into the apartment, and I. And I sat down on my couch, and I was expecting him to sit down with me, and he was wearing his coat, and he was holding his keys, and he just walked and he stood on the other side of the coffee table, and he just wouldn't sit down with me. And he just stood there holding his keys in his hands, and he said, what's going on? So I think that I pretty much immediately just went into it and said, I just. I'm really sorry. But I just don't think I can do this anymore. And Jason's a very straightforward person, you know, and he just kind of did that thing where he kind of shook his head quickly and he's like, why? Like, what. What is going on? And I think that I said it really bluntly. I just said, I. I've gained 15 pounds since we started dating. And he's like, I've. I've gained more than that. Who cares? And I think that's when I said, I just don't think that I can be that fat couple among our friends.

[Anna Martin]

What did his face do when you said those words?

[Courtney Hommeister]

He just. All he said. All he said was, I would never be anything but proud to walk into a room with you. He could have just said, you're not being a good person right now. And he could have said, that's not something that you should say to another human being.

[Anna Martin]

Right.

[Courtney Hommeister]

You know, that line is saying at the same time, I love you.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah.

[Courtney Hommeister]

And you're not being a good person right now.

[Anna Martin]

It's a really beautiful way to say it. Did you respond or.

[Courtney Hommeister]

I'm pretty sure that's when he just walked out.

[Anna Martin]

It sounds like, you know, it was all kind of spur of the moment. You text him, you say this thing, like. And then it's silence. Right. It's like you alone with your thoughts.

[Courtney Hommeister]

Yeah.

[Anna Martin]

What were those thoughts?

[Courtney Hommeister]

I mean, I think that in situations like that, if you're not a sociopath, you just wish that you were a different, better person.

[Anna Martin]

Did you imagine what was going through Jason's head or what he was experiencing?

[Courtney Hommeister]

Definitely. I mean, I think that I was thinking about that more than anything else, what I had done to him. But a couple days later, I think it was just a couple days later, he texted me. And the text just said, so I guess we're just friends then, you and me. And to me, that says, I'm giving you a pass on this one. You've got a do over on our friendship. Do not take it lightly.

[Anna Martin]

God, he's good, isn't he?

[Courtney Hommeister]

He's really good. And it was such a relief. It was a combination of relief and surprise, because I could never be that forgiving. I mean, obviously, I'm a dick. You know, Like, I couldn't even relate to that kind of forgiveness and especially that kind of immediate forgiveness. And I didn't understand it, and I will never completely understand it. And then after this, we just sort of went immediately back into being friends again, and we worked together, and we would have dinner every Monday night with my mother, and I then ended up officiating his wedding to his beautiful wife Jessica, whom he adores.

[Anna Martin]

It's amazing, Courtney. I mean, from, I don't know, the kind of depths of this breakup to officiating his wedding, really, I mean, it's a testament to the two of you and your friendship and how strong it is. It's very remarkable.

[Courtney Hommeister]

Yeah, it's definitely. It's definitely the most interesting relationship I have in my life, I would say, you know, for sure. It's the most layered, complex friendship that I have, I think.

[Anna Martin]

You know, I wonder if, after everything you went through with Jason, did you take lessons from that relationship into future relationships?

[Courtney Hommeister]

Um. Can I say no? Um. I mean, I have to say, this is the battle of my life. And I know for a lot of people, like, really, oh, I'm so sorry you have a weight problem. But it is. It is the battle of my life to try to figure out a way to love myself in my body. And I think that the battle isn't with my weight. The battle is with my brain and with recognizing that my body has nothing to do with my worth as a person, that I don't need to lose weight to be a good person.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah, I mean, it sounds like this is still very much ongoing for you, which I think is extremely real. You're still fighting this battle. Do you feel like you've made any progress, though? Like, has the way you talk to yourself changed in any way?

[Courtney Hommeister]

It has. It has. If I find myself saying something horrifying to myself now, I apologize to myself. And I don't find myself saying horrifying things as often. And in my old house, I had this giant mirror, and so it made it harder. Like, when I would get out of the shower and stuff. I used to call myself disgusting. And so I took an erasable marker and I just stood there. You know where I would stand in the mirror, and I drew a little jaunty cap on myself, and I had a little arrow. I pointed a little arrow to myself and said, not disgusting, exclamation point. So I feel like I've really made strides, is what I'm trying to say is amazing, Courtney.

[Anna Martin]

A jaunty little cap? Are you kidding me? I'm going to have to try that myself. I'm so happy to hear that. I'm actually going to talk to Jason in a few days. Is there anything you think I should ask him?

[Courtney Hommeister]

Anything that you should ask him? Well, I mean, I definitely think the question of how the hell did you Forgive her so quickly and why. Be great if he could answer that.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah, I will definitely ask him that. Courtney, thank you so much for this conversation. It was so. It was so open hearted and I feel very grateful. Thank you.

[Courtney Hommeister]

Thank you. Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure.

[Anna Martin]

We'll be right back with Jason's side of the story.

[Courtney Hommeister]

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[Anna Martin]

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[Courtney Hommeister]

Get them anything, get them something.

[Anna Martin]

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[Courtney Hommeister]

Not for your boss. And three, those absurdly soft Bombas socks and slippers you've been eyeing for yourself, they'll love those. And the fact that for every item you purchase, another is donated to someone who needs it. They'll love that even more.

[Anna Martin]

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[Courtney Hommeister]

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[Anna Martin]

Okay, I can't believe that I am actually meeting the Jason Rouse after hearing so much about you. Jason, welcome to Modern Love.

[Jason Rouse]

Hi. I'm happy to be here. Good to see you.

[Anna Martin]

I just had a conversation with Courtney Hommeister all about her Modern Love essay where you, of course, are a main character. Courtney told us your love story and your breakup story. So let me just ask before we dive into it, like, how weird is it to have someone write about your breakup for, like, millions of people across the world to read? Tell me about that experience.

[Jason Rouse]

You're not the first person to bring that up. I had known that she had written this piece for a long time, and I truly sort of. I was fine with it and I had sort of forgotten about it. And I, when she gave it to me to read, it was just printed on paper. And I read it and it was pretty well written as I wasn't surprised that it would be, and just felt very proud of her and really happy for her. And when it came out, my wife and I sort of woke up to a bazillion messages. And it's just this. This thing that really, I think, resonated with people and. And that was. That was kind of great, you know, it was kind of great. Strange. I still feel a step removed at.

[Anna Martin]

Times when I talked to Courtney, I heard her side of the breakup with you, but what do you remember about that day?

[Jason Rouse]

Yeah, I was at a movie theater and coming out and I got this text. She's like, can you come over? We need to talk. And I don't remember being concerned because she always wanted to talk about something, but I drove over there and I remember when I walked in, I just sort of stood there and she was sitting in her posture and the sort of. The tone of the room was not friendly. And she said that she hadn't been feeling good for some time, that she. She didn't like being seen as a fat couple. And I think I. I don't know if I said out loud, but I'm like, I don't think that's what we are. And I just said, okay, okay. And I just let her talk and get it out. And I didn't know. I felt. Is she trying to, like, hurt my feelings? I remember thinking that. And then I just. It became clear that she was just. She was in a period of some deep self loathing. You know, it's the only time I felt she let me down because I felt that this was just a lame cop out and that, you know, I don't know. I remember just being really kind of surprised, but also I felt it had nothing to do with me and just her and her marvelous brain.

[Anna Martin]

I really admire that you were able to be like, it's not about me. In fact, like, it reminds me of this line that Courtney writes about in her essay that we spoke about in our conversation. She says she doesn't wanna be the fat couple around your friends. And you respond by saying, I would never be anything but proud to walk into a room with you. Which, Jason, what a beautiful and really devastating thing to say.

[Jason Rouse]

My gosh, it was the truth. And that's. That's, I think, how it ended. And I took off. And I'm not one of these people who's like, I'm going to change their mind. You know what I mean? I'm going to work on it. I don't take no for an answer. I'm like, okay. And that's where I was. I was really not sunk by her statement. You know, it didn't sink me. I wasn't affected by that. I was affected that this person who I really cared about deeply didn't want to be with me. And that hurt and it was disappointing. It was a tough afternoon. And then I remember the next day, I just. I felt better because I knew so clearly what this was. You Know, like, in some way, by hook or by crooked. Our relationship transcended some of these things, you know?

[Anna Martin]

When we talked to Courtney, she mentioned, like, feeling absolutely awful after she broke up with you and the couple. Like, maybe one, two days afterwards, she got this text from you, and it said, I guess we're friends now, you and me. And she said that she still doesn't understand why you forgave her. And I guess, like, what would you say to her? What would you want her to know?

[Jason Rouse]

There was nothing to forgive. It had nothing to do with me. It was all her.

[Anna Martin]

Yeah.

[Jason Rouse]

She made a decision for herself, and there was nothing to. For, like, she needed to forgive herself. And I knew that I was gonna call her the next day and I was going to see her because, you know, I have no problems with Courtney at any size, and I love every part of this asshole. Like, she's. She's so spectacular, you know?

[Anna Martin]

I wonder how your brief, I guess, romantic relationship and your much, much longer friendship with Courtney, how has that changed you?

[Jason Rouse]

I was always used to think people would ask Courtney, for instance, Courtney a question, and she could give you a very definitive answer. And I didn't feel that I could do that on any subject. And I feel like I have that now. And I feel like. I think that when she broke up with me and I said what I said, that was the first time as an adult that I had truly been authentically like myself and said something of purpose. And it's why I think I felt so at peace with it, you know? And it was because she was the person that she is.

[Anna Martin]

She made you more confident. It sounds like.

[Jason Rouse]

Absolutely. I mean, to. Yeah, she's a powerhouse, and she's important, and I'm so proud that we're friends, that I get to see her, that I can call her whenever I want, and she'll answer the phone. She's just. She's essential. She's just fucking essential.

[Anna Martin]

Jason Rouse, thank you so much for this conversation. Truly, I really appreciate it.

[Jason Rouse]

I appreciate you talking to me. Thank you so much.

[Anna Martin]

If you want to read Courtney's Modern Love essay, look for the link in our show notes. And before you go, there is just one more thing I want to tell you before we head to the credits. This year marks the 20th anniversary of the Modern Love column. And if you're a reader or a listener, we want to know how the column has affected you. Has it made a difference in how you think about love in your own life? If it has, please leave us a message on our Modern Love Hotline at 212-589-8962. That's 212-589-89622. Include your name and a number where we can call you back and you just might hear yourself on a future episode of the show. Modern Love is produced by Reva Goldberg, Davis Land, Emily Lang and Amy Pearl. It's edited by Lynn Levy, Riva Goldberg Davis Land and our executive producer, Jen Poyant. Production management by Christina Josa. The Modern Love theme music is by Dan Powell. Original music by Elisha B'itoop, Sonia Herrero, Marian Lozano, Dan Powell and Rowan Nimistow. This episode was mixed by Daniel Ramirez. Studio support from Maddie Masiello and Nick Pittman. Digital production by Mahima Jablani and Nelka Loughley. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones. Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you want to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we've got instructions in our show Notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.