Why I Always Dreamed of Being a Sister Wife

Summary

Modern Love: Why I Always Dreamed of Being a Sister Wife

Podcast: Modern Love (The New York Times)
Host: Anna Martin
Guest: Christine Woolley (née Brown, of TLC’s “Sister Wives”)
Date: September 10, 2025

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Overview

In this episode, host Anna Martin sits down with Christine Woolley, known from the TLC reality series "Sister Wives," to discuss Christine’s new memoir and her journey through plural marriage. The conversation explores Christine’s upbringing in a fundamentalist Mormon community, her aspirations to be a “sister wife,” her relationships within the plural family, and ultimately, her decision to leave her ex-husband Kody Brown, the church, and the life she was raised in. The discussion is honest and reflective, moving through Christine’s formative years, ruptures within her family, relationship dynamics, the impact of reality TV, and her path to self-love and monogamy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Identity and the Meaning of "Sister Wife"

[02:06]

• Christine no longer identifies as a sister wife but says the title describes an important part of who she was.
  • “It is a story of me when I was a sister wife. And honestly, one, that was my favorite title. It’s who I was.” — Christine
• She feels the term now honors her past self and personal growth, rather than just her relationship to Kody or other wives.
  • “It gives honor to a past relationship with myself.” — Christine [03:27]

2. Childhood in a Plural Family

[04:20 – 06:44]

• Christine grew up idolizing the strong women around her—her mothers and grandmothers, all sister wives.
• The plural family structure, with its “chaos” and abundance of relationships, was the only kind of family she knew:
  • “I loved the big, huge family thing. I loved all the chaos that went with it. I loved that there was always someone to hang out with, always a party.” — Christine [06:21]

3. Maternal Rupture & Soul-Searching

[08:24 – 10:46]

• At 19, Christine’s biological mother left the family and the church, shocking Christine and causing deep anger and confusion.
  • “She raised me to love…plural marriage. You know, what do you mean, you’re leaving it?” — Christine [08:58]
• Despite this upheaval, Christine felt her own “testimony” and commitment to plural marriage strengthen in reaction.
  • “I swung even harder towards plural marriage.” — Anna
  • “I still loved so many of the examples that I saw of plural marriage. And I loved the community that I was in.” — Christine [11:23]
• Christine’s view of her mother softened over time, realizing her departure wasn’t selfish but necessary self-care.
  • “What I understood was…it wasn’t selfish. You have to be in charge of your own life.” — Christine [41:56]

4. Wanting to be a Third Wife

[15:28 – 16:50]

• Christine describes her dream of being a third wife, rationalizing that the first wife had the most difficult time and the second wife was often in a position to disrupt a marriage, while the third wife could “sail right on through.”
  • “I was the voice of polygamy reason. First wife has to deal with the man all the time. … Second wife, you’re going to break up a marriage… I want to be a third wife.” — Christine

5. Entering Plural Marriage with Kody

[21:02 – 28:46]

• Christine met Kody Brown through his first wife, Mary, and felt a deep connection.
  • “Right away we became like instant friends. … I just felt like I belonged.” — Christine [22:34]
• Her wedding, however, was disappointing and painful.
  • “He did not look happy to be there…he was going to do it come hell or high water, but he really wasn’t happy.” — Christine [25:12]
• The dynamic required Christine to assume the role of mediator among the wives, and she immediately put others’ feelings above her own.

6. Life as a Sister Wife: Reality and Challenges

[29:12 – 37:14]

• Christine organized family life and strove to create harmony, even as favoritism and competition arose (e.g., over meals and household norms).
• There were good years and strong bonds, especially with other wives and children—but also pervasive loneliness.
• Moments when Christine wanted to leave began after significant family stress and feeling unsupported (e.g., when her daughter Truly was critically ill and Kody prioritized Robyn).
  • “It was like, at that point, I was like—How old was Truly at the time? —Three. …I felt like I was alone.” — Christine [36:35]

7. Impact of TV and Robyn’s Arrival

[31:41 – 35:37]

• The reality show increased the pressure and drew attention to cracks in the family.
• Robyn’s introduction intensified existing strains:
  • “I am completely on the outside here. … I can’t do this. … I don’t fit.” — Christine [34:27]
• Christine realized the family unity she craved was slipping away.

8. The Breaking Point

[38:09 – 40:03]

• The pivotal moment was Kody’s refusal to attend daughter Isabel’s crucial back surgery, saying he “couldn’t leave his family for that long.”
  • “That’s insulting. You cannot be a dad and say that to your daughter. … There is no hope left.” — Christine [39:31]
• The experience empowered Christine to seek independence and redefine her family, realizing she and her children would be better off without Kody.

9. Healing, Monogamy, and New Love

[44:44 – 48:22]

• Christine is now remarried to David in her first monogamous relationship. Their wedding—a fairytale contrast to her first—was a joyful, mutual experience.
  • “It was a perfect fairy tale where all of my dreams came true. … David was there for every single detail.” — Christine [45:09]
• Her children witnessed her transformation and now see what a loving, egalitarian marriage can look like.
  • “They always thought I was a good mom, but they got to see me as a good person … and as a good wife and in a romantic role and in love.” — Christine [47:18]

10. Reflections on Plural Marriage

[48:32 – 50:07]

• Christine acknowledges that plural marriage can only work with exceptional communication, true equality, and absence of hierarchy or favoritism—qualities she rarely saw.
  • “I haven’t seen a lot of plural families that are happy, that is for sure.” — Christine [49:18]
• Her children are determined not to repeat the plural marriage experience:
  • “They love themselves way too much to put themselves through that.” — Christine [49:40]

11. Advice to Her Younger Self

[50:43]

• Christine would tell young Christine:
  • “Make up your mind and be firm on your decisions and know who you are at the very beginning … put both feet on the ground and take a deep breath and move forward with who you are.” — Christine

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It gives honor to a past relationship with myself.” — Christine, on the meaning of ‘sister wife’ now ([03:27])
• “I loved the big, huge family thing. I loved all the chaos that went with it.” — Christine ([06:21])
• “I swung even harder towards plural marriage.” — Christine, after her mother left ([11:23])
• “I was the voice of polygamy reason… I want to be a third wife.” — Christine ([16:13])
• “He did not look happy to be there…he really wasn’t happy.” — Christine, describing her wedding day ([25:12])
• “I want a family that was all together and did things together, and it was a real community.” — Christine ([35:55])
• “I will not be married to a man who treats my daughter and his children like they don’t matter.” — Christine, regarding leaving Kody ([39:31])
• “It was a perfect fairy tale where all of my dreams came true.” — Christine, on her wedding to David ([45:09])
• “Make up your mind and be firm on your decisions and know who you are.” — Christine, advice to her younger self ([50:43])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:06 — Does she still identify as a sister wife?
• 04:20 — Childhood and family culture
• 08:24 — Mother’s departure and aftermath
• 11:23 — Doubling down on polygamy after the family split
• 15:28 — Why she wanted to be a third wife
• 21:02 — Meeting Kody; courtship dynamics
• 25:00 — Disappointing wedding day
• 29:12 — Role as mediator among the wives
• 34:27 — Feeling like an outsider as Robyn joins the family
• 36:34 — Daughter Truly's illness and growing marital doubts
• 38:09 — Breaking point: Isabel’s surgery and Kody’s absence
• 44:44 — New monogamous marriage & healing
• 48:32 — Perspective on plural marriage’s challenges
• 50:43 — Advice to her younger self

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Tone and Takeaways

Christine’s tone is candid, often humorous despite her vulnerability, and ultimately empowering. The episode reveals the emotional complexity of plural marriage, the burden of community traditions, and the power of self-advocacy. By the end, Christine’s story shifts from one of striving to fit into a mold, to one of self-realization and radical self-love, offering new models of love and family for herself and her children.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Love now.

[C]

And did you fall in love last fella? Love, but stronger than anything.

[B]

And I love you more than anything.

[C]

There's to love. Love.

[B]

From the New York Times. I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love. Today I'm talking to Christine Woolley. You might know her from the TLC reality show Sister Wives. She grew up as part of a fundamentalist Mormon community and was one of four women in a plural marriage. Christine has a new memoir out now, all about how she grew up, what she loved about polygamy, but why ultimately, she left her husband Kody and the church. Here's our conversation. Christine Woolley, welcome to Modern Love.

[C]

Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. I'm a big fan.

[B]

Thank you for saying that. We're excited to have you. So, Christine, you are here today to talk about your new memoir. I read this book on a plane ride to California, front to back. I could not put it down. I was so drawn in, not just by your experiences, but by how open and reflective and vulnerable you were willing to be. And I wanna start here right, like, your new book is called Sister Wife, the show is called Sister Wives, but you technically aren't in a plural marriage anymore. So do you still think of yourself as a sister wife?

[C]

No, I left Cody. But I feel like it is a story of me when I was a sister wife. And honestly, one, that was my favorite title. It's who I was. And the story is all about who I was. But like, Janelle and I still consider ourselves sister wives.

[B]

And.

[C]

And you know what's cute? A lot of people tell us that once the show came out, their friends in them would start calling each other, like, sister wife as well. No way. It was the coolest compliment.

[B]

You're saying you're not a sister wife. This makes sense. You're no longer married to Kody, no longer in a plural marriage. But I guess, I wonder, like, does sister wife mean something different to you? Now, you don't claim that identity, but does it mean something different to you now than when you said it was your. Your favorite title?

[C]

Yeah. So when I was leaving, I was complaining to Janelle, and I'm like, I hated polygamy, and I hated being a sister wife of blah, blah, blah. She's like, whoa. Well, who you are today is because you live polygamy. And being a sister wife was what you did, and you loved it. And I did love it. I loved so many parts of it. I loved being part of the family. I loved that I got to marry who I chose. I loved the whole family experience. There were so many things that I loved. But more important than anything else, I love me. I love myself back then, but I love myself even more now. And we're talking 26 years of my life. I was a sister wife, so that's half my life, where that was who I was. And I became strong as that person. I became independent, and I learned how to love myself when I still had that title. So it's okay, because it gives honor to a past relationship with myself, so it's all right.

[B]

That's really interesting. When you said, it gives honor to a past relationship, I thought you were gonna say to Cody, to Janelle, you mentioned one of your sister wives, but really what you're saying is it honors the relationship with yourself.

[C]

Mm. And all the changes that I've made through the years, like who I was and how I would just. It's okay. I'll do whatever the heck for everybody else to learning that, actually, it's also okay to have a voice.

[B]

Let's go back to the beginning, as it were. Did you always want to be a sister wife growing up?

[C]

Yes, 100%, I always wanted to be a sister wife. So I'm raised in a culture. It's the fundamentalist Mormon culture. And in it, you're raised to believe that being a sister wife and having, like, a plural family really was the best way to just become a better person, to embrace all of these human faults that we have and really learn from them. So really learn how to handle jealousy. Really learn how to handle comparing. Really learn how to be independent. And I loved that so much. Then I also saw my grandmas, and they were the strongest women that I knew. They were sister wives, and even when my grandpa died, they still were so, so close together, and I love their relationship. I had two moms, and I loved watching them and being part of their life, so it was really, really cool. Just all the examples that I Had. And then I also thought it would be really cool to have my choice of whoever I married, whether they be single or married. Yep. I always wanted it.

[B]

Plural marriages were the models of family you grew up with, right? You're saying your grandmas. You had multiple grandmas. They were married to your grandpa. And then you grew up in a home where you had multiple moms. Right. You had your biological moms, two moms. Can you tell me more about what that was like? Like, yeah. How did that manifest in your daily life?

[C]

So it's like. It's all I knew. Right. I only knew about having two moms. My dad married my other mom when I was five, and it's one of my first memories, and I loved her. And then getting older, like, when I became a teenager, I found out that my other mom was way more cool than my mom. So, you know, it gave me someone else to talk to. And we read romance books together, and we watched shows together, and she had really cool music that she listened to. And she was also great to hang out with, too. So I loved the relationship. I still love the relationship that I have with my other mom. She's one of my favorite people. She's a wonderful person. And I just loved the relationship that I had with her so much. And my grandmas were incredible. And all of my aunts and uncles and a lot more aunts than uncles and everything that. I loved it. I loved being around all of it. I loved the big, huge family thing. I loved all the chaos that went with it. I loved that there was always someone to hang out with, always a party, always. I just loved it. It felt like we went from event to event to event, and I thought it was exciting.

[B]

How did your biological mom and your other mom, how did they get along? Did you have a sense of that.

[C]

As a. I thought they got along great until my mom left when I was 19. So I thought that they had a good relationship. I remember watching them, and I thought they got along well. I thought they got along really great. I mean, there were ups and downs, of course, but I didn't ever hear about them. I didn't hear them fight, didn't hear them argue, nothing.

[B]

You know, specifically, you described your biological mom as your best friend. Like, would you. Would she ever open up to you about how it was for her in this family? Or was that not really something that you guys spoke about?

[C]

No. So she was an adult. She's an adult, and she's a mom, and so there's a. She didn't also really open up a lot about a lot of things. Yeah. She just didn't feel like it was appropriate. And I don't think she really talked that much to other people. Anyway, so she left. And we just had a rocky relationship for a while. And it was just such a hard thing to watch your mom struggle with.

[B]

I mean, what a rupture, right? Especially because you're describing, honestly, what sounds like a pretty idyllic childhood, being surrounded by so many kids and aunts more so than uncles, which I appreciated you clarifying. That makes sense, you know, in this context. But having a mom that you could go to for music recs and a mom that you could talk to about, you know, the deepest secrets of your heart. And then there's this. There's this rupture, right. In your understanding of your family and your understanding of your mom and your understanding of yourself. And this happens at age 19, right? Is that how old you are?

[C]

I was. And it was a shock. It was a big shock. Cause I didn't know that my mom wasn't happy. I didn't know.

[B]

Tell me about how you found out. Like, do you remember where you were when she told you that she was leaving?

[C]

Yes. Yeah. I was sitting at our table doing homework for college. And she's sitting in the kitchen and she's like, I'm going to leave your dad. I'm like, wait, what?

[B]

Just kind of casually like that.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And she goes, I haven't been happy for a long time. And there's a lot of things that I have a hard time with in the church itself. And I'm like, you raised me to love the Book of Mormon. You raised me to love Joseph Smith. You raised me to love plural marriage. You raised me to love it. You know, what do you mean, you're leaving it? And she's like, I haven't liked it for most of my life.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

So I felt like she was lying to me. Cause she raised me to love it. So I'm like, she's lied to me. And so I was just so angry and just so much to process. And.

[B]

Yeah, there are, you know, moments where it's just seismic, like your whole life changes. And it sounds like that was a moment.

[C]

Oh, it was incredible like that for you. Yeah. So it really caused a pause on. Okay. So just because I was raised a certain way doesn't mean I have to live a certain way. And my mom and my dad and my other mom, they all felt the same way. Like, if you don't feel like Living plural marriage, you don't have to.

[B]

Wow. So this was kind of a. I was gonna say, like, did you feel like you had to choose a side?

[C]

Not as much as my. My younger siblings did. They did. Cause they had to live with my mom or they had to go and live with my dad. They had to. But I was 19, I was out of the house. So I could do both. I could hang out with my mom. But I was angry at her for leaving because I felt like she was lying. But I still knew that she's my mom and she still was a good friend and a confidant of mine. So, you know, but I was struggling with her, but she's still my mom. And then my relationship, I'd go hang out with my dad and my other mom a lot and just try to figure out what I wanted to do. But it was a time of real soul searching, what I really wanted to do with my life. And I felt more than ever that I wanted to live plural marriage still. I felt like my testimony was still so strong and I just wanted to still live it.

[B]

This is a really interesting part that I remember from your book because your mom tells you she's leaving and begins sort of a years long process of extricating herself from the church, from the faith, you know, not necessarily from the family, but, you know, certainly from the way you were raised. And I remember reading this in your book and. And I want to hear you talk through why it's like you swung even harder towards plural marriage, saying yes, towards polygamy being the path for you. Tell me about why it was a reaction to your mom leaving or talk me through that.

[C]

So I still loved so many of the examples that I saw of plural marriage. And I loved the community that I was in. I loved being part of the church. I was popular, so it kind of probably helped. But I knew a lot of people. I was always so busy in our community and I had such a good time. I loved it just for the social aspect of it. I was involved in the choir and plays and, you know, whatever. I was involved in a lot of things. And so continuing that just made sense. And I still had. I realized that through all of this, I still loved the example that my grandma set for me because again, after my grandpa died, they were each other's best friends. And I thought it was beautiful to watch them and be around them. And my grandma was like the most badass woman I've ever known. My dad's mom was so cool. And I have a tattoo of My grandma's on my leg now.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[C]

Is my grandma. I know it's totally against our culture to have tattoos whatsoever, but I knew I needed her tattooed on my body. So I have these roses, these flowers that represent my grandma's. They'd probably all roll over in their graves and be like, christine, what are you doing?

[B]

You'll discuss it when you get, you know, to wherever you guys are going. You know, you'll talk about it.

[C]

They're gonna love it. They love it. It doesn't matter.

[B]

I mean, it's so. It's like. It's like you couldn't imagine leaving this community in which you were so central. It sounds. But also at the same time, can you talk me through sort of the, like, emotional dimensions of it? Because we opened this conversation with you saying the way that plural marriage had been described to you, you'd been taught about it, was it makes you a better person. Right.

[C]

So I have to imagine. I like that.

[B]

Yeah. I have to imagine that. Well, I. Yeah. I wonder the flip side, did it mean then that your mom leaving this plural marriage made her a worse person? Made her a weaker person?

[C]

Oh, believe me, in my pious stages, I did feel like that I went through so many times where I became ultra pious, and I knew that she was sinning and going straight to hell and she was gonna burn in the depths forever. You know, I did feel ridiculous, things like that. I felt like, you know, whatever, I could get to the celestial kingdom if I. Plural marriage, she couldn't be there, and that was her choice. She had everything and she gave it up. No kidding. I went through such piety. No, but it's embarrassing.

[B]

Can I say, you know, right now, obviously we're talking with the distance of decades and you've left this faith, but I wanna really pause because what you're saying is really impactful. What you're saying is, at times in your life, you believe that your mom had made a choice that prevented her from going to the celestial kingdom, from being with you and your siblings for eternity. That's huge.

[C]

It was hard.

[B]

It sounds incredibly difficult. It sounds devastating.

[C]

Yeah. So I did have to make a choice. Absolutely. Like, I knew that I had to decide if I was gonna live plural marriage. I was going to stay with my dad and my other mom and be with them forever and ever into eternity. But, like, my siblings and friends and things like that, and where I knew it was right. Right. And. But. Or I could be with my mom, but I didn't feel like she was very happy. I felt like she was leaving everything that she knew, and she was still trying to figure things out. I think she was lonely. She had to figure some things out. And it was such a, you know, time of unrest for her too, of course. And I. That's why I had a lot of salt searching that I had to do.

[B]

It's. So. Thank you for going there. I really appreciate it. I'm just gonna walk it back. Cause I wanna make sure we get all these steps. It's like, you enter this period of such intense piety, and I wanna just say, like, as you're in this zone, you still wanted to be a sister wife.

[C]

Mm.

[B]

You're 19, 20. You're in your early 20s. What did you want your own marriage to look like?

[C]

You're gonna love this, Anna. I want it to be a third wife.

[B]

Third wife. You wanted to be a third wife specifically.

[C]

Did it pause for a minute and.

[B]

You'D be like, wow, Was this like a Christine theory? Or was this like an actual theory of mar. Okay, no, this was all just sort of.

[C]

No one else had ever voiced this out loud. I knew I was the voice of polygamy. Reason first wife has to deal with the man all the time. And I really felt like men were difficult. They're like this ball and chain to you. And I wouldn't be able to do everything that I wanted to do if I was shackled to a guy and it was just me and him alone. And I'm like, that sounds like ridiculous. First wife.

[B]

Too much work. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. Don't sign me up for that. Not back then. But then being a second wife, I thought sounded worse. Because a second wife, you're gonna break up a marriage. You're going to be a wedge between a partnership between a marriage. And I'm like, well, I definitely don't want to be a wedge and split somebody up. No, no, no. So I want to be a third wife. Because the first wife has done all the hard work with the guy the second wife has done all the hard work with, like, breaking up the family, making room. Totally. I just get a sell right on through all of this. It was brilliant. It was so brilliant.

[B]

I'm struck by, you know, as we talk about plural marriages, you speak about your grandmothers, you speak about your moms, and I'm not really hearing that much about the guy. Like, it's striking to me that plural marriage might, in fact, like, at least for you, have been so much more about these relationships with other women. I don't know. I'm Struck by that, I know well.

[C]

So I love the idea of romance. I love the idea of being in love, of finding my person and living happily ever. So I did love that part of it. And that, like, as a person was so important to me. But my relationship with my sister wives was more important to me. Like, I really knew that my relationship with my moms had been my favorite thing. My relationship with my other mom, with my mom, with my grandmas, with my aunts. Those were the relationships that helped mold me into the person that I was at that time. Those were the most influential relationships. Now my dad is my hero, 100%. He is the most incredible human that I know. He's so loving and kind and giving and just an exceptional human being. But the impact that my mom's had and grandma's was more powerful. So I loved the idea of raising children with more moms because I loved it so much. So it came down to when I had kids, I'd be able to give them these other moms that they could be close to and they could be friendly with. And if I was struggling with them and I knew I couldn't move, meet their needs, my sister wife could help and. And their relationship with them would be so good and cool and they'd have someone they could talk to that I trusted. Wow, guys. I believe in the village. You know, it takes a village to raise kids. Yeah, I believed in that.

[B]

We're going to take a quick break.

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[B]

So let me re reset us. You're in your early 20s. You want to get married. Specifically, you want to be a third wife. For reasons we have detail.

[C]

Yes. I always need to put that in. It's the best.

[B]

How were you looking for someone? You said you don't really date. So, so, so what's that process like?

[C]

So you look, you go to church and you watch guys. You watch people. I watched families. I watched how families interacted. I watched how guys would act with their wives. I watched how guys acted with their children. I watched sister wives, how they got along with each other. I watched and I paid attention. And I KN the exceptional guys in our church were. And I knew who the non exceptional and terrible and whatever were as well. And I was only really, you know, I was just watchful.

[B]

Do you meet Cody, the man you eventually marry? You're watching everyone. Why did he stick out?

[C]

So my sister had met him first and had told me about him and.

[B]

Mary, his first wife.

[C]

His first wife, Mary. Yeah. And then that Sunday at church, she introduced us, but like, it's the whole. I saw him across a crowded room and I'm like, oh, my God, who's that? And my sister, she's like, well, that's. Yeah, that's Cody. That's who I was telling you about. I'm like, oh, okay. And so she took me right up and introduced us. And right away we clicked. Right away we became like instant friends. And it was so easy. And he was fun and dynamic and outgoing and just, he was really cool. And we just started hanging out. So that's what you do is you hang out. You get to know them in the hanging out kind of way. He would throw like little get togethers at his house. And I was always invited, like, so. Yeah, so we just started hanging out for a few years. It took us like, years. Like, we were together for like, we were friends for like three and a half years before we got married. Yeah.

[B]

How did he make you feel when you were around him, when you were.

[C]

Hanging out, how he felt sparkly and giddy. And I felt just accepted. And I felt like. Like I belonged. I just felt like I belonged.

[B]

But you wanted to be a third wife.

[C]

Yeah, I know. He only had one, and then he was dating another woman, and, you know, it seems like that would have been perfect for me. Cause I want to be the third, but I didn't really like her, so I'm like, can't do that.

[B]

Shoot.

[C]

And so, out of the blue, one day, he told me he married Janelle. I'm like, who. Who's this person?

[B]

His second wife. And you're like, didn't know her.

[C]

I'm in. I'm in. Yeah, I know. I know. You'd think that I would think. It did take me about a year to be like, oh, actually, no. He just. I didn't know Janelle. And suddenly he got married to Janelle. I'm like, who is this person? Yeah. And so. And he told me about Janelle and then met her and everything. I'm like, oh, she's cool. We're fine. All right. I can actually be in the running.

[B]

Wow. So. But this is kind of a big deal, right? Because you're drawn to this person. He now has two wives. You could be the third. You ultimately achieve at least some version of your dream. You become a third wife. You and Kody get married.

[C]

That's true. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Tell me about your wedding.

[C]

So our wedding day itself was hard. My mom couldn't be there, which was really heartbreaking, because in our church, much like the Mormon church now, if you're not in the church, you can't attend. She couldn't be there, but she made my dress. And I was so appreciative because I loved it that she made my dress for me. So we'd worked on our relationship and really started figuring things out with the two of us.

[B]

I mean, tell me about your wearing this dress that your mom made. She can't be there. Like, how did you. How did you feel like when you.

[C]

So I loved how I felt in the dress. I loved it. And I went and I got my hair done with my sister. She took me out, and she got my hair done and nails done and everything. And she was so excited for me. They all loved Cody so much. So their enthusiasm also helped a lot with that day, because my dad loved Cody. My other mom, my sister loved Cody. Like, we were all just really excited to get married. I was excited to get married to Cody. So excited. And so I had the dress on, and I was all ready. And he knocks on the door and I open it, and he did not look happy to be there. And I was like, wait, what? And Mary was right there. Like, he came with Mary and Janelle. And I opened the door and there they are. And he.

[B]

All three of them.

[C]

All three of them. All three of them. Yeah, yeah. And there they were. And he did not look happy. And I'm like, what?

[B]

What did he look like? Can you describe what he looked?

[C]

Overwhelmed. He looked overwhelmed. Like, what am I actually doing? He looked like he was, like, really second guessing, but committed. Like, I knew in that look that he was going to do it come hell or high water, but he really wasn't happy to be there. Isn't that crazy?

[B]

Christina, I really feel sad for you in that moment.

[C]

I mean, I was devastated instantly, but I still believe, like, instantly I knew that there was something wrong. But then I was also like, well, then I guess it's my enthusiasm that'll finish carrying us the rest of the way for now, you know. Well, I'm just gonna be as happy as possible, and I'm gonna be as cheerful as possible and upbeat as. I don't know. Hopefully he'll change his mind. Hopefully he'll come around. Maybe it was a bad trip. Maybe he's, you know, he does have two wives. He did talk about how overwhelming it was sometimes. So I knew that, like, his marriage with Mary and Janelle was tough. Sometimes they didn't really get along. So I just figured there was a lot of things and maybe it wasn't me, you know?

[B]

Can I say, like, it's also hard for me to hear. Cause you're thinking about all these people and their emotions, but it sounds like in that moment, the person you weren't thinking about is you. Right?

[C]

Like, well, I couldn't. Yeah, I couldn't because I'm like, look, I don't know if this is because it's just because of me that he doesn't want to get married to. I don't know if he's overwhelmed because of all these other things, but I was heartbroken. Get me right? I was heartbroken.

[B]

You were totally heartbroken. I'm just struck by the fact that you're already sort of in, like, where's the problem? Let's fix it. Let's diagnose it. Like, I want to make sure everyone's feeling happy. All of these dynamics. Like, you're already in that mode, Right? And it's like, day one of this marriage. Tell me. So you do the ceremony.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Does Your chest.

[C]

We have a chaste kiss.

[B]

How was that? It was your first kiss.

[C]

Awkward as hell. It's fine. Oh, gosh. But it.

[B]

I mean, I know you're laughing now, and I get it, but, like, in the moment.

[C]

Oh, it was embarrassing. It was awful. It was humiliating. It was.

[B]

Those words are strong. Why was it? Why humiliating? What was humiliating about it?

[C]

Because my dad's there, like, my other mom's there, and they're like. We really, like. They all. We really liked Cody. All of us liked Cody. We thought that he was great. We've seen him in his relationships with Mary and Janelle. We know he's a good husband. We know he's a good man. So where's the disconnect? Why isn't he really committed here? You know, I was like, thinking, I can't believe they're saying this. This was so dumb. And I thought a first kiss should be over the altar. I really did. He's married. He's a married man. The first kiss should be. Yeah.

[B]

You're saying it was humiliating because it was like his disinterest, or whatever the word is was so apparent, other people could see it. And you felt embarrassed by that.

[C]

Yeah. That was beautifully and eloquently put, Emma.

[B]

I'm just repackaging your words, my friend.

[C]

That was nicely done. That was amazing. Yeah.

[B]

Don't fly.

[C]

No, no, no. You're so good at this. It's like you've done this for a while. Well, I thought that he was excited too, you know? And so by that chaste kiss, it just showed what I already knew to be a truth. He wasn't excited to be there. So he gives this little peck of a kiss, and now everybody else knows too.

[B]

So you. You move in. Tell me about that dynamic.

[C]

So I felt like right away I knew my place was going to be like a mediator in keeping the peace between Mary and Janelle because I knew they didn't get along. So I was gonna be a mediator right away. And I was just gonna be a friend. I was gonna be a friend to everybody. I'd be a friend to Mary, a friend to Jill, a friend to Cody, and we'd just all be friends and we would just figure it out.

[B]

What was that like? In a day to day sense, Mary.

[C]

Had a stronger personality and she had more, like, things that were very specific that she liked in the home, like the brand of laundry detergent and the brand of. And the way she folded towels. And Cody loved all of those things about her. So that's what we did. And so many things like that were, like, cooking, like, meals or whatever was like, if we take turns cooking, everyone would, like, have a turn in the kitchen so everyone could make their foods. But, man, you had to excel and be a good cook in that kitchen, you know, because what you.

[B]

Was it competitive?

[C]

I know, right? How could it not be? Well, again, Cody had some meals he liked. Those happen to be ones that Mary made, so she had these meals that were better. And Chanel didn't have a lot of foods that she had even brought into the family up at that point. And so she didn't cook as much. She'd make meals for herself more, but we would all eat together. So I think there must have been some meals that she made for everybody.

[B]

But in that first year of marriage, is that right to Cody, you had your first child, Aspen. Is that.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Can I ask you, like, as you had Aspen and then more kids, like, what was your relationship with Cody? You said these kids give you something to bond over. Certainly. But what about the, like, emotional bond between the two of you? Or even the physical bond? Like, how was your relationship progressing as you.

[C]

With Cody specifically?

[B]

With Cody specifically, how did it progress?

[C]

We're just busy. We were just so flipping busy, it's hard to even remember. And do you really have time for conversations or you're just tired at the end of the day? You know, it's like life just got busy, and life just got. And so I just knew that I just needed to be as positive as possible every time Cody was with me. So it could just be, like, a lovely, light time for both of us where we could just connect and just be with each other and have it be positive as possible. So what? He'd want to come back or. So he would just enjoy being around me. So I just made it as positive as possible, and we just kept pretty positive. But after, like, after Michelty was born, we hit, like, a more of a romantic stride. Like, we hit more of a romantic stride after that. And I'd say that's where kind of our good years started, was after I had Michelty for, like, the next, like, 10 years. Everything really was really good with Kody and I. Wow.

[B]

I will say the story continues, does it not, because 14 years into your marriage, you have five kids, bio kids. At this point, you start filming a reality show on tlc. It's called Sister Wives. Yes. You are seeing all of your relationships play out on tv. Your relationship with Cody, with Mary, with Janelle, with your kids, with all the kids. I mean, I don't even know the answer to this must be so enormous. But, like, how did that change the dynamic at home, being filmed, watching yourself on screen?

[C]

So at the beginning, we felt like what we had was just great. As far as plural families go. We were a great example of a plural family. So I loved it. I loved the first season. But then the interviews got hard. The episodes got harder, too. We'd film something and we'd all be open and we'd all be vulnerable, and then we'd have to frickin dissect it on the couch. And we had been a family that hadn't really talked about things a lot. And then whatever. They would bring up these questions and they would be so hard for us to answer on the set sometimes.

[B]

And we actually haven't brought in Robyn to this conversation yet. So let's just say while the show is in the early stages, Cody starts to see a new woman named Robin, and eventually they get married.

[C]

Well, we all knew Robyn. We all knew. She was all agreed. Yeah. So when Cody met Robin, it was with Mary that he met her and he met Robyn. We met her almost, like, really quickly after that. And we all were hanging out. We all agreed he should marry Robin. Like in our family things. That's like, the proper way to do it when you're a polygamist and stuff. He did court her. He did spend more time. Like, their wedding was, I don't know, like nine months a year later. So it was a long. They had a long courtship. And then the whole thing was filmed, and all of it was filmed. And getting ready for the wedding was filmed. So it was prolonged way longer than usual plural marriages because of the show, which is also seven kinds of not fun to watch, I'm just gonna tell you that. Right, of course. Right. And then you get to watch it on tv, too. No, not my favorite.

[B]

You know, the thing with Robyn, too, that you write about in the book is it was very clear that Cody and Robin had a very intense connection. You mentioned seeing her call him her soulmate in the second episode, and that really. That only continues to sort of deepen and cause some rifts. So while all of this is going on, that sort of relationship is also burgeoning. Can you share. Yeah. A memory or scene from this time where you realized, like, wow, things are really not great? Like, is there a scene that comes to mind?

[C]

We had this family party, this family get together, someone's birthday, I don't know, over at Janelle's house. And I stood there, and, like, Mary and Robin and Cody were just all sitting there talking. The three of them were kind of huddled, and they were all laug. And I looked over at Janelle, and she was just, like, on her phone or something, and all the kids were playing, and everything was good. And I just was like, I am completely on the outside here. And I went back home, and I went to my room, and I just laid in bed, and I just cried. And I'm like, I can't do this. I can't sit here and watch Cody fall in love. And Mary and Cody and Robin have this cute little trio, and I'm like, on the outside, you know? And I don't feel like I'm gonna fit. I don't know if I want to fit. And, like, we're supposed to show that we're this family where everything works really.

[B]

Well for the show.

[C]

Here we are on tv. We have a show, new wife coming in. We're supposed to be like, everything is supposed to be a blissful time for all of us. And it is just hard, and it is just overwhelming. And I don't even have a place, and I don't even fit.

[B]

It strikes me, I remember the beginning of our conversation when you spoke about the community of plural marriage, your sister wives and your relationships being so important to you. And it just is very striking to me that this memory you're sharing, you feel so alone. You're totally lonely. It's the opposite of what you wanted.

[C]

Complete opposite of what I wanted. I want a family that was all together and did things together, and it was a real community.

[B]

When you're describing that memory at the party that you were like, I don't know if I fit in this dynamic, and I don't know if I ever will.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Was that when the idea to leave started, or was that not even a no?

[C]

Not quite. No. The first, like, time I felt like leaving was after Truly was in the hospital in Vegas, and Cody was bragging that he was doing laundry at Robin's house. And I'd asked him to go help because Truly was sick, and he wouldn't go help. And I'm like, so it was like, at that point, I was like.

[B]

How old was Truly at the time?

[C]

Three. She was three. And, like, her kidneys fell. She went into kidney failure. She had to be in dialysis. It was really, honestly, the worst time of my life up until that point. It was the worst. I felt like I was alone. So that was, like, an absolute first real low. That was Just so devastating. And so it started to fall apart a little bit. So back then, my first thoughts of leaving him was then. And then I was like, all right, look, she's better. I just kept on hoping that it would get better, and hoping and hoping and hoping.

[B]

Why were you hoping that? Like, what was motivating you to hang on when it was so hard? When it was so hard?

[C]

It wasn't always hard. Right. You know, there were times that were good, too. So you have to look at those times that were good as hope. But then it was also my belief. I believed in plural marriage. I believe this was the life I always wanted. Here I was, finally living it, and this is really what I wanted. And this is what I want for my kids to have these other moms in their life, and this is what I'm going to do. So even though I felt like leaving, it was quickly replaced with, I need to stay. And then there'll be times for the next 10 years after that where I was like, I need to leave. But then I really need to stay. And I still believed that we would be all together and everything would be great, and we'd sit on our rocking chairs watching our grandchildren from the porch. Like, it just.

[B]

It was such a push and pull. Like, it. You just. So what was the breaking point? What was the moment where you knew, like, oh, no, it actually isn't gonna work out. Like, I actually really do need to leave. When was that?

[C]

The Isabel surgery that Kody said he couldn't come?

[B]

Isabel's another one of your children? Yep.

[C]

Yeah. Sorry. So Isabel, at that point, was 14 when we found out that she had scoliosis. And we started going to these doctor appointments, and Cody was great. He was phenomenal. He went to the doctor appointments with us. We tried all these other things and everything, but it came down to she needed surgery. And it was during COVID that she needed her surgery. Just her back got too bad. She was 17 at that point and stopped growing, so it was time. So I. We told him, and he's like, I can't leave my family for that long.

[B]

Whoa.

[C]

And Isabel's like, after. She's like, I thought we were his family. And I'm thinking, I will be your family. I will be your mom always.

[B]

I mean, I'm also struck by that language. I can't leave my family for that long. It's like, well, what does that make you?

[C]

Exactly. I thought we were his family, too. So I'm like, well, if we're not his family. So clear when his Daughter's having a back surgery that he can't leave his family, then we're not. Then I'm going to become the most independent, badass mom in the world because that's who my kids need.

[B]

I just am still thinking about when he says, I can't leave my family for that long.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Just describe to me one more time, like, what did that mean to you?

[C]

I realized at that point that there was no hope that I would ever have a better marriage. That's insulting. You cannot be a dad and say that to your daughter. And I will not be married to a man who treats my daughter and his children like they don't matter. And if that's what it's going to be, then there is no hope left for this. There's no point in staying like this. I knew at that point I could provide a better life without him for my children than with him in it.

[B]

Oof. That's powerful. I mean, and it feels extremely definitive.

[C]

Oh, yeah. I was done. And then we went on that trip and I was like, actually, this is a lot easier without him here. But I actually really like it. I loved it. That was my favorite trip I got.

[B]

I remember reading that part in the book. I loved it. Cause it's so dramatic and emotion filled. And you're done, and then you're like, yeah, no, it was awesome. When I wasn't with him, I loved it.

[C]

Yeah, I loved it. We were at the Jersey shore for two weeks before her surgery. You're kidding me. This is easy time of my life. I'm like, wow, him not being here is amazing. That whole. Like that. Yeah. No, sign me up, man. I loved it.

[B]

Can I, like, who did you tell first about your decision to leave?

[C]

Mmm, well, my mom. I called my mom. So I called my mom, and I'm like, sitting there looking out the window, this beautiful view. And I'm like, mom, I have to leave Cody. And she goes, okay, well, what does that look like? And I said, well, I have to leave him and I have to move to Utah. And she's like, well, I like the sound of that a heck of a lot. So what do we need to do? I'm like, I don't know what to do. That's why I'm calling you. And she goes, okay, you're gonna put both feet on the ground, and you're gonna take a deep breath. And then you're gonna start living the life you need to live. And you're gonna make the choices out of joy and you're gonna stop making choices out of fear. And so she was all about just planting, getting grounded, and then moving on. And that's it.

[B]

Your mom left her marriage. Yeah, her marriage to your dad when you were 19. And you didn't understand it, right?

[C]

Not at all.

[B]

Did you understand it better in that moment.

[C]

So I knew before that that she had come to terms with everything. But what I didn't know is how hard it was to make the decision. What I understood was how it was. That's what I understood. It wasn't self. It was what was needed for herself. But it wasn't selfish. I thought leaving meant she was selfish. And at that point, I did understand that it's not you being selfish. You have to be in charge of your own life. And you have to. You have to. And no one else will. And I understood she wasn't selfish.

[B]

I think that's really beautiful.

[C]

Oh, it was a beautiful moment for my mom and I.

[B]

We'll be right back.

[D]

Mont Blanc invites you to use life's quiet moments to pause, reflect, and put pen to paper.

[B]

Chapter one.

[C]

Oh, no.

[B]

No, no, no. Part one. Perfect. The mountains are impressive.

[C]

Oh, I wish you were here to see them.

[B]

Dear diary, meet my new writing companion, the Meister.

[D]

Stuck for every journey, the perfect companion awaits. Montblanc. Let's write. Visit montblanc.com for exquisitely crafted writing instruments, leather goods, and more.

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[B]

You are now you're married. You mentioned you are in a monogamous relationship. Your first. Your first monogamous relationship.

[C]

First monogamous relationship. Yes. Yes, yes.

[B]

Tell me about David. We talked about your wedding day to Kody and how disappointing I think would be maybe an understatement. That day was for you. How was your wedding day with David? What was that like? How did you feel?

[C]

It was a perfect fairy tale where all of my dreams came true. Like, it was everything that I hoped for, but I was marrying my companion, someone I planned the wedding with. David was there for every single detail of the entire day. We planned. We planned all of it together. Every time there was an issue with whatever, I'd be like, babe, we gotta figure out the flowers. He'd be like, okay. You know, we gotta figure out the signing book. Okay? And he would help with everything. So I gotta start my life with my partner. And. Well, we kind of already started before. But as far as marriage goes, it was an amazing. It was perfection. It was a perfect day.

[B]

I love.

[C]

God, it was amazing being able to.

[B]

See you talk about this because you are just really smiling in a way. I just love to. You know, And I'm also thinking not to draw so many parallels. Cause, of course, it's so different. But, you know that look that you said Cody gave you on your wedding day? When David saw you on your wedding day, what did you see in his eyes?

[C]

You know what? Before I even saw him, I was walking down the aisle with Peyton and I was like, am I supposed to be nervous? And he goes, no, I don't think so. And I looked over at David and I saw him standing there waiting for me. And I was like, oh. And it took my breath away. He really liked what I looked like, but it was more than that. It wasn't just appearance. He loves me as a whole, being everything about me. Everybody got to see how much David and I love each other.

[B]

What does that mean to you?

[C]

So it's like. It's this complete circle. Like, at that point, it's the security that I have with David. But knowing that I get to be this example to my kids of what true love looks like. I like that my kids have this as an example of what marriage looks like.

[B]

I was gonna say your kids have seen you go through now very different relationships, very different marriages. Pain, you know, certainly redemption, as you describe it. What do you get to show your kids through your relationship with David? Yeah.

[C]

What it looks like when you live your life for yourself. So they got to see me divorced, and they got to see me living my own life, and they got to see how strong I became when I got to make choices for myself. And so they saw that, and I love that they saw that, too. I felt like they could respect who I was as a person more so than ever before. They always thought that I was a good mom, but they got to see me as a good person and then as a good human. But now that I found David, they also got to see me as a good wife and in a romantic role and in love. It's so cool that your kids can. That my kids get to see me in love. It is so.

[B]

That is really cool.

[C]

It is cool. I love that my kids get to see me in this relationship with David and with someone who I can talk to about everything. And you know what? It's someone they can talk to about everything, too. They can all talk to David. They all have these great relationships with David where they talk to him and they have. He has better conversations with them than I do half the time.

[B]

Do you think. Do your. Well, I don't know how. Let me just say, like, it directly. Do you think plural marriages, do you think they work?

[C]

I think that if you're going to have a plural marriage, that there needs to be some, like, real introspection and real honesty with yourself and make sure your needs are heard. Make sure that you're being heard. Equality needs to be super important. There should never be a hierarchy of wives. There should never be a favorite wife. I don't know. I have family members that live it, and some are very successful, and I have friends that are successful with it. And the wives all feel like they're hurt and they have good relationships with their husbands. And I think it's hard. I think that it's challenging. I think that you really need to have a voice and you really need to state, you know, have your interests heard as well. But I think if people are going to choose whatever they want to choose. But I do think it is hard. You know, I haven't seen a lot of plural families that are happy, that is for sure.

[B]

How do you talk to your kids about plural marriages?

[C]

Have anything you have plural marriage, I'm going to cut you off.

[B]

Oh, really?

[C]

Do you really?

[B]

That is not what I expected. Really?

[C]

No, I. They don't. None of them will live plural marriage. Absolutely not. Because they love themselves way too much to put them through themselves that way themselves. And they're strong, independent people, and they only want to treat their partners with respect and with love. And there is a high probability of failure of them not doing that if they live plural marriage.

[B]

And this is a mom thing. You're like, you may not be in a plural marriage or. All of them have come to this on their own.

[C]

Oh, no, no. They're all smart kids. They come to this on their own. I didn't have to say anything. Girl. Are you kidd.

[B]

Okay. No, I'm just wondering.

[C]

They saw what went down in their. They saw what went down. They're not dumb. Not dumber. Oblivious. No, no, no.

[B]

This is my true final question. I'm just thinking about young Christine, who was so certain that she wanted to not only be a sister wife, but a third wife.

[C]

Represent.

[B]

Represent. What would you. It's a classic ender question, but why not ask it? What would you say to her?

[C]

Now make up your mind and be firm on your decisions and know who you are at the very beginning of all of this. Probably put both feet on the ground and take a deep breath and move forward with like who you are.

[B]

A wise woman. Your mom said that.

[C]

Tina, huh? Yep. Yep. Best words I've ever heard.

[B]

Best words you ever heard. Christine Woolley.

[C]

Yes. Hello, Anna.

[B]

Thank you for this conversation.

[C]

Thank you. It's been my pleasure.

[B]

The Modern Love team is Amy Pearl, Christina Josa, Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Reeva Goldberg and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Elisa Gutierrez. It was edited by Davis Land, Lynn Levy and Jen Poyant. Epheme Shapiro was our mix engineer, and we got studio support from Matty Masiello and Nick Pittman. Original music in this episode by Rowan Nimisto, Diane Wong and Dan Powell. Dan also composed our theme music. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones. Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times Times. The instructions are in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.