Zendaya and Robert Pattinson on Marriage and Secrets

Summary

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Modern Love – Zendaya and Robert Pattinson on Marriage and Secrets

Host: Anna Martin
Guests: Zendaya, Robert Pattinson
Release Date: April 1, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Modern Love explores the limits of truly knowing a partner, the role of secrets in relationships, and how vulnerability, privacy, and revelation can shape love. Host Anna Martin sits down with Zendaya and Robert Pattinson, stars of the new film “The Drama,” to discuss their characters’ turbulent engagement, personal approaches to honesty and intimacy, and parallels between film and real life.

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Key Topics & Insights

1. Fictional Relationships as a Mirror (03:00–07:38)

• Character Impressions:

  • Both actors reflect on whether they’d be friends with Emma and Charlie, their characters.
    • Robert Pattinson (RP) thinks Charlie is “very easy to influence, which is always, I find a little bit untrustworthy in a person” but admits, “he does mean well… he’s a romantic. And I think everybody who’s romantic is kind of slightly delusional and blind to lots of things.” (04:21–05:02)
    • Zendaya (Z): “I feel like I'd want to hang out with her because I think she needs more friends… so much of her identity is in his life.” (05:56–06:43)

• On Truth and Lies in First Impressions:

  • Pattinson discusses Charlie’s initial lie about reading a book:
    “It’s high risk for someone who’s quite shy… I need you to think I’m a certain type of person… it comes out of insecurity. I guess it’s quite endearing.” (05:26–05:49)

2. Secrets, Timing, and the Limits of Knowing (07:38–12:24)

• Disclosing the Past:

  • Anna asks if Emma should have revealed her secret earlier.
    • Zendaya: “If she told him earlier… maybe it wouldn’t be a very good movie.” (07:52–08:05)
    • The group discusses relationship ambiguity and whether full transparency is necessary.
  • Pattinson: “If you knew everything about the other person, literally nothing is perfect… but also the feeling of thinking you found someone who’s perfect… is addicting. You don’t want to let go of it.” (08:38–09:32)

• Debating Relationship Transparency:

  • Zendaya believes in knowing a partner’s “core” so you can grow together:
    “It’s good to know someone, at least at the core, so that as they grow and as they change, you can be a part of that in some way.” (10:18–10:39)
  • Pattinson argues for boundaries: “You suffocate a relationship if you’re saying, I need to know all this stuff about your past. The past has nothing to do with you.” (11:12–11:29)

3. Intuition, Gut Feeling, and Recognizing ‘Your Person’ (12:24–14:00)

• Instant Knowing:
  • RP: “I think the second you meet someone, you kind of know which way the relationship’s going to go… and you just choose to go…” (12:07–12:24)
  • Zendaya describes feeling calm instead of nervous with someone special:
    “I actually feel more nervous when I’m away from you than when I’m with you.” (13:19–13:27)

4. Seeing Your Partner Anew (14:00–17:43)

• Noticing Surprising Sides:
  • The panel discusses moments when partners do something unexpected, prompting reevaluation.
  • Zendaya relates this to seeing parents as humans:
    “When that perception… fades away and you go, oh, you guys are just people. And also trying to have grace for them as human beings too.” (15:40–16:34)
  • Zendaya’s personal turning point: “Just moving to LA and me having to work… that kind of dynamic shift brought up a lot of things for my parents.” (16:46–17:42)

5. Vulnerability, Tiny Love Stories, and Sharing Too Much (18:45–26:46)

• Reading ‘Tiny Love Stories’:
  • Zendaya reads "First the Ugly, Then the Beauty" by Ali Petrilla. Both actors reflect on front-loading vulnerability:
    • Zendaya: “Some people… lay their cards out on the table right away… some people, it takes time.” (19:50–20:33)
    • Pattinson is wary: “Everybody who does that… overload you with personal information… it forces you into a certain position to listen to them… It’s manipulative sometimes.” (21:11–21:43)
    • Later clarifies: On a date, vulnerability can be moving, but with strangers, it can feel off-putting. (22:28–22:59)
• Second Story: ‘There’s a Logic to Love’ (23:05)
  • RP reads and reacts to a story about using a flowchart to decide on a breakup: “As he started drawing it, it’s a true chart. He should have realized how unattractive that is.” (25:33–25:38)
  • Zendaya admits she makes pro/con lists, RP jokes about relying on “vibes” and “shaking your head around it.” (26:02–26:19)
  • Zendaya: “Sometimes you just need to write it down. I found that helpful.” (26:31–26:46)

6. Celebrity Privacy and Public Curiosity (27:59–29:51)

• Anna Martin (host) asks about marriage rumors.
  • Zendaya offers a thoughtful boundary statement:
    “We do our best to not hide ourselves from the world, but just to… preserve things for ourselves so we can maintain that joy…” (28:33–29:37)
  • Anna compliments Zendaya:
    “That’s the most beautiful way to say no comment.” (29:41)

7. Feeling Seen and Known (30:09–33:22)

• Final Reflections:
  • Anna asks: “Share a time recently where you felt very known by someone in your life.”
    • RP: “I feel like my partner knows me better than I know myself… to the point where she’ll have quite psychic abilities about things... And with my kid, it’s a different type of knowing… just pure curiosity.” (30:42–32:02)
    • Zendaya: “I feel really known by my partner, my friends, my family. I think that’s when I’m happiest… you just, you know, they know you. They see you and you feel safe.” (32:20–33:05)
    • Zendaya continues: “They see me as the adult I am now, but my siblings also see me as their little sister. All the past stacked on top of each other.” (33:01–33:05)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Romance & Delusion:
  “Everybody who’s romantic is kind of slightly delusional and blind to lots of things.”
  — Robert Pattinson (05:02)
• On Boundaries vs. Absolute Openness:
  “You suffocate a relationship if you’re saying, I need to know all this stuff about your past.”
  — Robert Pattinson (11:12)
• On Growing with a Partner:
  “It’s good to know someone, at least at the core, so as they grow and as they change, you can be a part of that.”
  — Zendaya (10:18)
• On Intuition:
  “I actually feel more nervous when I’m away from you than when I’m with you.”
  — Zendaya (13:19)
• On Vulnerability:
  “Some people… lay their cards out on the table right away… some people, it takes time.”
  — Zendaya (19:50–20:33)
• On Public Privacy:
  “We do our best… to preserve things for ourselves so we can maintain that joy just within ourselves and our loved ones and our family.”
  — Zendaya (28:33)
• On Feeling Known:
  “I feel like my partner in a lot of ways knows me better than I know myself… to the point where she’ll have quite psychic abilities about things.”
  — Robert Pattinson (30:42)

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Topic Timings

| Topic / Segment | Start Time | |-----------------------------------------------|-------------| | Main theme & intro | 00:32 | | Movie “The Drama,” first impressions | 03:00 | | Lying to impress, character analysis | 04:46 | | Discussion: secrets, disclosure timing | 07:38 | | Debate: how much should you know? | 09:32 | | Following intuition & “knowing” | 12:24 | | Discovering something new about loved ones | 14:00 | | Tiny Love Stories: honesty, vulnerability | 18:45 | | Love, logic & flowcharts | 23:05 | | Charting vs. vibing: how decisions are made | 25:56 | | Privacy & the press (marriage rumors) | 27:59 | | Final reflections: feeling seen | 30:09 |

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Conclusion

This candid, lively conversation offers insight into the trickiness of love, the role of secrets, the balance of openness and privacy, and the deeply personal nature of feeling truly seen. Woven through are charming asides, gentle debates, and honest moments—perfectly in line with Modern Love's spirit.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

And did you fall in love last, fella? Love, love but stronger than anything And

[B]

I love you more than anything there's to love Love. From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love. And today on the show we have two guests, Zendaya and Robert Pattinson. The two of them star in a new movie called the Drama. They play an engaged couple who's about to get married. And when I watch this movie, I had two opposite reactions at once. On the one hand I was like, they are so romantic. And on the other hand I was like, I'm so stressed out by this, I need to put my hands over my eyes if I'm going to continue to watch this film. I think the reason the drama hit me in this way is because it plays with a very real anxiety, this idea that we can know a partner so well, but we can never truly know everything about them. There's always a chance they're going to reveal something that takes us by surprise. Maybe even something pretty shocking. I met up with Robert and Zendaya in LA and we talked about how this question if you can ever really know someone, shows up in their movie and in their real lives, Stay with us.

[A]

I'm Robyn and I am excited to open my Crossplay app.

[C]

I'm challenging John, my colleague at the New York Times.

[A]

Robin played the word grunge, which has a G, which is four points. She got that triple word multiple. I am going to take facts and make it faxes for 30 points. I might just take another two letter word here with whoa. Gets me at 23. I think this will put me back in the lead. If my maths are mathing, I like to play it more from a strategic point of view and see where I

[B]

can block the other player from scoring high.

[A]

I'm pretty competitive. It's fun to beat friends and co workers and also you get to learn new words.

[B]

Crossplay, the first two player word game from New York Times Games. Download it for free today I think he thinks he has this in the

[A]

bag, but I'm not so sure.

[B]

Zendaya and Robert Pattinson.

[C]

Hello.

[B]

Thanks for being here. Welcome to Modern Love.

[C]

Thank you for having us.

[B]

The two of you are in a new movie called the Drama. You play and engage. I liked that Literally every single question

[A]

was the same thing at the same time. That's quite amazing.

[B]

Three, two, one. Yes. That didn't really work that time. You played engaged couple.

[C]

Natural, you know.

[B]

Totally. We won't force it, but I hope it happens again. You play an engaged couple, Emma and Charlie. They're so in love. They're perfect for each other. And then a week before the wedding, Emma reveals something that I'm not going to spoil. You have to see the movie to figure it out.

[C]

Absolutely.

[B]

But it causes Charlie to wonder if he even knows, you know, this woman at all. And suddenly this bond that felt so strong and is full of chaos, there's all this doubt. Charlie's spiraling, you know, wondering if the wedding should still even happen. Emma's watching Charlie being like, can we recover from this? Does this man even love me anymore? These are generally, I would say, not questions you want to be asking a week before the wedding. I've never been married, but I was. Imagine doing my research. Let's start here. You spent a lot of time with these characters, Emma and Charlie. Do you like them as people? Would you be friends with them? There's a lot in that. Yes.

[A]

Yeah. I mean. Yeah. I mean, I. Yeah, I got. Yes.

[B]

Okay. That's a soft yes. There's a lot behind that. Yes. Unpack that for me.

[A]

He's very easy to influence, which is always, I find a little bit untrustworthy in a person. But at the same time, he does mean well. And he's trying to. He's trying to kind of temper himself against his sort of weaker instincts. So I guess he's got potential to be my friend.

[B]

He's easily influenced.

[A]

Yeah, but. Yeah, but he's a romantic, like. And it's kind of. And I think everybody who's romantic is kind of slightly delusional and blind to lots of things.

[B]

I love that.

[A]

I love that. The only way you can really be a romantic.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

You gotta lean into it.

[B]

Lean into it. There is this moment, the first time that your character Charlie, first approaches Emma. He does it with a lie. He pretends to have read a book that Emma's reading. What do we think about this tactic? It feels so tough to pull off and unnecessary.

[C]

Right.

[A]

This is what I thought Literally, it's like, it's high risk for someone who's quite shy. Cause it's. The hard part is going up and just starting the conversation 100%. So it's kind of one of the other reasons why I don't really like him.

[B]

Because he lied initially.

[A]

He has a lie. And it's also a very specific lie where it's kind of like, I need you to think I'm a certain type of person kind of person. And it's like. Which I guess it just comes out of insecurity. I guess it's quite endearing. I like him again.

[B]

Oh, my.

[C]

You really.

[B]

We'll ask at the end and we'll see if you actually don't want to hang out with him. Now, Emma, how do you feel about this woman? Do you know what?

[C]

I feel like I'd want to hang out with her because I think she needs more friends. Oh, she needs more genuine friends.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

Tell me more about that.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And I say that because I think both the characters desperately want to be loved and accepted and seen in some kind of way. In many ways, I think she just has always wanted a sense of belonging and to feel like she. She fits somewhere. And I think when she meets Charlie, she feels like she fits with this person and this, oh, I can choose who I'm gonna be, and this is who I am now. And I can, you know, so much I think, of her identity is in his life. Cause we don't actually meet her own friends.

[B]

That is true.

[C]

We meet his friends that are her friends. And, you know, she's acclimated herself to his life and his world. And not to say that that's not true to her, because I do think that this is the life that she loves and she feels like fits her and she feels safe in. And I think that safety that she feels ultimately ends up in making her feel safe enough to share maybe a little bit too much. And so I just think that, you know, she needs some of her own friends.

[B]

I was gonna say. So you wanna hang with her out of pity?

[C]

I mean, you're like, you gotta have a girl's night, but you need.

[B]

You know, I know I'm making it.

[C]

I was always like, dang, she doesn't have anyone else, you know?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

But I thought that was indicative of where she's at in her life and kind of her vulnerability, too, and why the stakes of this marriage working out are so important to her.

[B]

Well, I was gonna say, you know, I opened by saying Emma reveals this thing that she did in her past, a week before the wedding. And I'm curious for both of you, like, that decision. Do you think she should have told him earlier? Where do you come down on that?

[C]

I don't know. It's a film, so it's like, if she told him earlier, maybe it wouldn't be a very good movie.

[B]

You're like, no, because then I wouldn't have to.

[C]

Because it wouldn't be the week before the wedding. Totally, totally chaos and nothing for us to. You know.

[B]

That's a very straightforward answer, and I appreciate that.

[C]

Yeah. But, yeah, I don't know. And I think that's the interesting thing with this film is there is a lot of. That is the discussion that you will leave with ambiguity, for sure. You know, it's like, is that something that you feel like you should talk to your partner about, or do you feel like it was necessary to bring it up? Or, you know, you're able to kind of ruminate and chew on it and chew on it for a bit and put yourself in the shoe of both of the characters and go, well, would I have done that or would I have said that?

[B]

Or. What are you thinking? What do you think?

[C]

Yeah, what are you thinking, Rob?

[A]

I'm just thinking it's kind of. It's like. I think it's interesting. Cause it's. You want a romance to be this sort of. You want it to be an idealized romance. And if you want. Like, everybody kind of wants. You want something to be perfect. But if you knew everything about the other person, literally nothing is perfect. And so it's kind of like, do you want to. But also the feeling of thinking you found someone who's perfect and thinking it's a perfect relationship is so profound, it's addicting. Yeah. And you're also. You don't want to let go of it, but also you can somehow. I guess the story is saying there is a way to kind of have it, but it is. It's that strange leap of faith, like, and. Which is kind of everywhere. Like, what kind of. We've been talking about all this. Like, we're basically kind of on either side of the fence, which, like, I

[B]

need to know everything I need to know about. Yes, let's open up the debate. I'm sorry if this is trending territory

[C]

for you, first of all, because I don't think Rob actually believes this.

[B]

There's a rift here.

[C]

I think Rob is just, you know,

[B]

well, tell me, what is the different.

[A]

What's the difference? No, when someone Starts telling me too much. I'm like, you need to. You need to reinforce that you love. Yeah.

[B]

Wait, wait. What is the debate just like, yeah,

[A]

well, I'm into boundaries. I thought everybody wanted boundaries.

[C]

There are just things like, how much do you want to, like, know about somebody before you, like, to marry them or something?

[A]

Very little.

[C]

And he doesn't want to know very much.

[B]

Is that true?

[C]

You're like, you want to know their middle name?

[A]

I think the more. If you're expecting chaos and surprises, you'll probably be happier in the long run. It's very unromantic if you're just like, I want to know exactly where you're going to be every single day. It's like, that's so lame. It's gross.

[C]

But like, okay, rebuttal, rebuttal. But in life, naturally, like, we're going to grow and we're going to change. Like, that's going to happen no matter what. So it's good to know someone, at least at the core, so that as they grow and as they change, you can be a part of that in some way. You know, it's like, you know where we're coming from.

[B]

So you're saying you want to know as much as establishes kind of the ground rules. This makes sense of what kind of

[C]

person someone is and getting to see them or getting to discuss or go through things together, you know, I think is. I mean, I feel like I'm biased because I've been able to grow up with the person that I love and, like, get to know them, like, through being literally a teenager to now. So it's like, of course we're gonna change and we're gonna grow, and life is like, whatever. But I still feel like there's a bond or connection that you feel like you know someone, at least enough to feel safe with them.

[A]

You inevitably know someone a bit by just being in a relationship with them, of course. But I think it's the expectation of saying. I think you kind of. You suffocate a relationship if you're like, saying, like, I need to know this. I need to know all this stuff about your past. I need to know everything about your past.

[C]

It's like, oh, I see what you mean by that.

[A]

And the past has nothing to do with you. It's literally, like, it's kind of. I don't know. I'm kind of.

[B]

I get that.

[C]

But I also think that, like, if you feel safe in a. Safe in a relationship, then, like, I would never want to be like, you have to tell me everything about your life.

[B]

It's more like, well, how would you know how many questions to ask? What is it?

[C]

No, I just mean more like if you feel safe with somebody or like, hopefully you feel safe enough with me that you want to share.

[A]

It also reveals your own insecurity if you're constantly saying I need to know all this stuff about your past. Also I kind of think the second you meet someone, you kind of know which way the relationship's going to go. Like I literally, I think that's an instant.

[B]

Do you think you have a special ability to do that or everyone?

[A]

I think everybody does. Yeah.

[B]

And we just don't listen to it.

[A]

I think they do listen to it. Cause like when you, like, I think when, if you end up breaking up with someone or something happens, there's always that moment I knew this was gonna happen. I think most people do. And I think you know, the second you meet them, like and you just choose to go and it's not necessarily a bad decision, but you know, you

[B]

always know what is it. Okay, I'm gonna push on this. Cause I'm interested when you have this knowing.

[C]

Yeah, me too. Right.

[B]

What does it feel like to you? Is it like a aha or is it like a body based sensation? What is that?

[A]

Yeah, you can get. Cause you can have the combination of feel, like you can get some, like you can have, you can be like very attractive to someone. And also there's like some like fear or something at the same time. And it's like, oh. And that could be why you're attracted to them in the first place. But you know, that fear will eventually have some. It will do something to you, it will come outside. There's a reason your body is afraid of them.

[C]

I kind of agree with that in some ways because I think sometimes, like, at least in my personal experience, like I found that, you know, sometimes like people kind of like kind of get nervous around people. But there's a certain feeling that I was able to experience when I knew that this is my person. Because I didn't, I never, I don't feel nervous around that. I feel really peaceful and I feel really calm and I feel like, oh, I actually feel more nervous when I'm away from you than when I'm with you.

[B]

That's really sweet.

[C]

And that's when I was like, ah, that's a good sign. That is a good sign. That means listening to my, you know, body, intuition or body or whatever. We first met in an audition, so I was pretty nervous Anyway, but he did make me feel calm.

[B]

So can you tell me how he made you feel calm?

[C]

Just by being a nice person, you know, by making me feel comfortable. I mean, like, it's like having to do a chemistry read for a big movie like that. It's like, oh, you know, you really want the job and all these kind of things. And. Yeah, she was really lovely then.

[B]

So I want to talk about these moments where we see. Where we learn something new about a partner, where we see our partner in a new light. There's this scene in the movie that I find so relatable, probably because I live in New York. Emma and Charlie, they're crossing the street. A car almost hits them. Emma goes off on the driver.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And by the way, I was like, it was your right of way. You know what I mean?

[A]

Do you know what I mean?

[B]

100% throw.

[C]

The star's gonna hit me.

[B]

OK, I'm kidding. Thank you for doing and not me. Charlie is looking at Emma like, wait, why? Why? Cause Charlie's looking at Emma like, who is this woman?

[A]

Yeah. I mean, he's very sensitive. He's a little oversensitive to that. I mean, it's kind of what the humor of it is. Cause this is so. I mean, so many parts of the movie. He's reacting. I mean, I guess it's how you always. When you're spiraling, suddenly everything seems. Everything's big, everything's crazy. And it's like, oh, my God, like, she's wearing a different hat.

[C]

She's crazy.

[B]

But the moment, this scene felt like, you know, he's seeing this other aspect of her and he's interpreting it differently because Emma at this point has revealed the secret. But I felt like I related to it because in not such a dramatic fashion, but in almost every relationship I've been in, I've had this moment where the person will do something. And suddenly I have to kind of recalibrate what I thought I knew about them. And it doesn't have to be in a bad way. I'm curious if this resonates if you've had a moment with someone you love, partner, family member, friend, where they do something and you see them in a different way.

[C]

I think it happens like when you grow up and you start stop seeing your parents as just your parents totally. And just as human beings that met and had you. You know, it's kind of like when that perception of. Or, I don't know, whatever it is kind of fades away and you go, oh, you guys are just people and it happens, you know, it's like for some people, it happens younger, you know, it happens at different, you know, stages of your life. But really getting to understand your parents, but not from the context of them being your parents.

[B]

And they do no wrong. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Or whatever that idea or ideal of a parent is that you have in your head and just seeing them for the people that they are and also trying to have grace for them as human beings too. And remember that they're just, you know, they're just people as well, you know, they're like not superheroes and whatever. They're human beings. Yeah.

[B]

Do you remember a moment when you had that realization about your parents? It can be even small. But do you remember a time when that occurred to you?

[A]

Um,

[C]

I think. I think probably like when, you know, just moving to LA and, you know, and me having to work and be the one that was working. And I think that kind of dynamic shift brought up a lot of things for my parents. Cause now it's like you are now in a different dynamic with your parents, certainly. And how you navigate that, I think was one of those moments like, oh, shit, okay, this is different. Cause I'm not just like a little kid anymore, although I technically am. I'm doing a very mature job now. I have a 9 to 5 and I go to work every morning and I come home at night, but I also still have to listen to my parents and they have to tell me to go to bed, whatever. So that you're like, whoa, whoa, that's weird now. And trying to, I don't know, just like wrap your head around that a little bit.

[B]

That feels like a lot to navigate.

[C]

Yeah, for sure.

[B]

We'll be right back.

[A]

In theory. I knew that this kind of thing can happen in any family. Upstanding citizens are always turning out to be secret criminals. And I wouldn't even call my cousin Alan an upstanding citizen. But it's one thing to know and another thing to understand.

[B]

Alan. Murder me.

[A]

What the hell was Alan thinking? From Serial Productions and the New York Times. I'm EM Gessen and this is the Idiot. Listen, wherever you get your podcasts,

[B]

We have this column in the New York Times called Tiny Love Stories.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

These are short 100 word love stories, and we've chosen some that feel very resonant with the drama.

[A]

Are they real love stories or are they just.

[C]

They are.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

They're true.

[A]

They are true people, just random people. Just randomly send them in.

[B]

Yeah. Voluntarily. Wow, this is a brave Thing.

[C]

It is a brave thing.

[B]

It is a brave thing. So I'm going to hand you one of these. You'll read them, and then we'll respond to them, we'll react to them. How does that sound? First up, we have you, Zendaya. And please say the title and the author's name.

[C]

Okay. First the Ugly, Then the Beauty, by Ali Petrilla. We met on an app. I chose my favorite brewery for our first date when he ordered only water to drink while I enjoyed a few beers. I prodded with neither hesitation nor shame. He laid out his demons. Four years in recovery from heroin and alcohol addiction. Then I laid out mine. 10 years recovering from eating disorders. Within 15 minutes, we knew all of

[B]

each other's ugly parts.

[C]

We've spent the rest of our time together discovering the beautiful ones.

[B]

That's what's coming up for you.

[C]

I think that's really beautiful. You know, here's the thing. It's like everybody's love story is different. And some people feel comfortable sharing and feel like they can be vulnerable or feel like it's important for them to lay their cards out on the table right away. Some people are more incompetent, and some people, it takes time for you to, you know, build the trust and break the walls down. But in a unique situation where it seems like this has worked for both of these people, where they feel like they were both able to share something equally of, you know, importance to them, and that was, you know, allowed them to bond and see each other and maybe help each other in many ways, then I feel like that's really beautiful.

[B]

Duplicate.

[C]

Hope they're happy.

[B]

They're actually married. We got that update.

[C]

Oh, wonderful.

[B]

Do you think there's such a thing as disclosing too much of yourself too early? Yes.

[C]

Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Very strong response. Tell me about this.

[C]

No, no, I'm saying it's such a thing. That's someone's story. Yeah. I think. Do I necessarily feel like maybe the first time I meet someone? Depends on the person and who you know. And sometimes it takes time to get to know somebody.

[A]

It's very controlling as well. Manipulative.

[C]

You are.

[A]

Yeah,

[C]

right. Yes.

[B]

Wait, so tell me more about this. You had such a strong response.

[A]

Yeah. I feel like everybody who does that, although not everybody, but the vast majority of people who want to kind of overload you with kind of too personal information when you haven't really met them, it's like kind of because it forces you into a certain position to listen to them. And you're like,

[B]

what is that position?

[A]

You can't. I know. I'm just gonna sound so judgy.

[C]

That's okay.

[A]

I regret it already. But I do think it's manipulative. Sometimes someone's. You can tell when someone's doing it. But sometimes if you're at a party and someone's doing something, it's like. It's kind of. Cause you can't really tell, like, all right, blah, blah, blah, whatever. Get out of here.

[B]

So you think it's like. It's sort of. It's putting you into a position where you have to receive.

[A]

Yeah, I just want to talk.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

But it worked for them.

[C]

Yeah, it worked. That's what I'm saying. It worked for them.

[A]

Oh, no, I'm not saying about these guys. They sound very nice.

[B]

Yes, they do. And again, they're on a date.

[A]

I'm talking about a crowd.

[B]

Yes. Okay. You're talking about another party. Do you feel like you're the kind of person.

[A]

If it's on a date, it's a totally different thing. Sorry, I was thinking about a party. I realize now it's a totally different story. Thing.

[B]

Tell me about how you'd handle it on a date if someone was opening up like they are in this tiny love story.

[A]

Yeah, it depends. It's like, if someone. Yeah. It's not just the opening up is not just opening up. I think there's always so much more to it. Cause I think most. I think it's a natural thing to be wary of other people when you first met them.

[C]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

And so I don't know, but it'd be interesting. Sometimes. That's happened to me before. And sometimes you're like, absolutely so profoundly moved that someone's thought, like, oh, I see something in you, which you are the person who I feel like I can open up to.

[B]

I trust you.

[A]

Yeah, but if they're just opening up to everybody, I'm just like, blah, blah, blah.

[B]

Robert, we have a tiny love story for you, if you don't mind reading this, the title and the author's name,

[A]

and we'll discuss There's a Logic to Love by Jack Simmons. As an engineer, I believe problems have logical solutions. To solve my relationship problem, I needed to structure it. Standing at my boyfriend's whiteboard with a marker and a flow chart I'd drawn, I asked him questions, tracing his answers down the chart. He was happy, but wasn't sure he could fall in love with me. The chart said break up. So we did I went back to him, promising to love myself enough for both of us. It didn't work. We broke up again. Love is simple. The flowchart and your heart must lead to the same answer. Stay. Interesting. It's not where I thought it was gonna go.

[B]

I know, right? Okay, well, tell me about that reaction.

[C]

Well, are they saying that, like, this particular flowchart kept going back to break up, and in order for it to work, the end point can't be break up. It has to be stay?

[B]

I think the flowchart said for them break up, and they did, but then they came back together, ignoring the flowchart, and then it didn't work. And so what he's saying is we should listen to the flowchart. To the flowchart.

[C]

That's what I'm saying. It has to say stay.

[B]

Yes. It has to say stay or you

[C]

have to break up.

[A]

Well, it sounds like his partner initially said that. Already said, like, I'm gonna let this flowchart shit go, and then I'm gonna ignore that you've drilled this flowchart and hope you come to your senses beyond

[B]

the flowchart of it.

[C]

I will say, well, he also said he was happy, but wasn't sure he could fall in love with me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, oh, oh, Sorry I missed that.

[C]

That's a heart.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Kind of what's making sense to you now?

[A]

I mean, if someone says, I wasn't, I'm not sure I can fall in love with you. I'm like, just keep it to yourself.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You need to say, I got a job.

[B]

I need to go.

[A]

Sorry, but I. You're amazing. I have to go.

[B]

You're like, no more charts.

[A]

I'm not entirely sure what a flowchart is.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[B]

That comes out now that you don't know what a flowchart is.

[A]

That, like, when you follow the line to, like, Topsy needs to find her mom in the swimming pool. Like, whoever do you find that's cool?

[B]

Is that a maze?

[C]

Maze.

[B]

Okay, so no. So, no, not exactly. A float chart is different.

[C]

Very different.

[B]

Very different. But they share some components. Let's throw them a bone. A flow chart. I'm like, what is a flow chart?

[C]

Visual learning.

[B]

Visual learning. It's like, if this, then this.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

As he started drawing it, it's a true chart. He should have realized how unattractive that is.

[B]

Well, I feel like people make a lot of pro and cons lists for people, which is adjacent to flowchart. Have you ever been in a situation where you're so unsure about someone or something, some decision that you felt the need. You could have used a flowchart or a pro con list.

[C]

I don't think I've used it in, like, a romantic situation, but I've definitely used some charts, like, to make some decisions.

[B]

I'm a Virgo. There you go.

[C]

Okay. Not like a chart, but I've definitely done some pro con lists.

[B]

Really?

[C]

Oh, for sure.

[B]

Is this surprising to you? That's like, a normal thing to do.

[A]

It is.

[C]

And if the pro con. Sideways the cons, you're like, okay, how

[B]

do you make decisions, Robert?

[A]

Shake your head around it, and then you see which is the bigger, the yes or the no.

[B]

You're like a Magic 8 ball.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

That's really fun. That's literally how I imagine it goes on vibes. It could be very damaging to one's head, though.

[A]

I don't know. It's a light shake.

[B]

It's a light shake. Just tiny, light shake.

[C]

Yeah. No, I definitely.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Cause that's the thing is I feel like I'm very. I don't know, I overthink about a lot of things. So sometimes, like, you just pour out with all these thoughts. You're like, okay, maybe I just need to write it down. So, yeah, sometimes that's. I found that helpful. But maybe not in this particular situation.

[B]

Not in this particular.

[C]

But I think, you know, there is an open communication, and the answer was kind of there, and it's like, okay, well, maybe this isn't where I need to be.

[B]

I actually think this goes back to your understanding of really tuning in to the truth of someone. This is their way to figure out, you know, the outcome of their relationship. They had to break up, but they didn't listen.

[A]

I'm literally, look, when you're drawing the flowchart, you know?

[B]

Yeah, okay, that's fair.

[C]

The flowchart kind of knows.

[A]

Yeah. Not only are you drawing the flowchart, but then you're showing it to your partner. You're trying to get a reaction. All you're trying to do is say, like, I want you to say you love me. Like, that's the thing. That's the only reason you're doing it. And you know he's not gonna do it. Like, you know they're not gonna do it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

If nothing else, I'd say that's fair.

[B]

Yeah. I also am happy that we could tell you what a flowchart is, even though I'm not so sure.

[C]

You really know.

[A]

I know. I still kind of went in One way or another.

[C]

But you're just like, any chart.

[B]

Any chart starts.

[C]

Have to bring out a chart in a relationship is over already.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay. There you go. To be fair, I think Charlie would be a flowchart guy. He's trying to justify. He's not trying to make pros and cons.

[A]

He's, like, thinking, like, I think, well, he literally kind of does. I mean, that's literally where the movie is.

[C]

His pros and cons list.

[A]

I think it's just drawing things down. It just feels like, yeah, there's a

[B]

lot of effort for questions about flowcharts, and I'm realizing, like, there's a lot here. It's very rich. This movie's about marriage. You both are in very public relationships. There has been recently much speculation about marriage for you. I'd be remiss not to ask, as a journalist, if there's anything you want to say about people wondering about whether you're married. And I will say just a small plug. If there was a place to say some news, it might be the Modern Love podcast for the New York Times.

[C]

Well, I just feel like, for me, it's like there is a level of, like, a parasocial, like, investment in my personal relationship, which I understand. And I do know that, like, I am aware that I'm a public person and so is he. And I'm also aware that, like, we've grown up in front of people and we've done movies where we, like, fall in love with each other. So it's like, I really do understand that, and I don't want to dismiss that, like, stay out of my business or whatever, but. But in a lot of ways, I also am a very private person, and I try my best to be able to have things for myself and for him as well. And so we do our best in general to not hide ourselves from the world, but just to, I think, preserve things for ourselves so that we can maintain that joy just within ourselves and our loved ones and our family. So that's kind of like my broad way of just saying I hear it, but I also like my own little boundaries of what I like to bring up and talk about, but then also what I'm also willing to share.

[B]

You know, I think that's the most beautiful way to say no comment.

[A]

I know.

[B]

I respect it.

[C]

No, I mean, I'm just. I'm speaking honestly, of course, from that perspective. But, yeah, I just, you know, I just try to find the balance in the middle there.

[B]

Understood. Any comment?

[A]

I wish I could. That's literally like practice.

[B]

It was really good and it was true.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

It was clearly very genuine.

[C]

I swear I didn't chart this. This is just. I'm just answering your question. Cause I didn't know if you would answer, like, ask that. So.

[B]

Thank you for telling me. Of course. I want to land us on the set. We've been talking about what it means to really know someone we love. What happens when we don't know as much as we thought. So I want to close on this idea. I wonder if you could share a time recently where you felt very known by someone in your life, very seen for who you are. This is an earnest question. I know. But I wonder if you could humor me with an earnest answer.

[C]

Good luck.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

You gotta try.

[B]

You gotta try.

[A]

Very known and seen. I mean, a lot. I feel like. I feel like my partner in a lot of ways knows me better than I know myself. Well, No, she's kind of. To the point where she'll kind of have like quite psychic abilities about things. But does that feel good? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

Good.

[A]

She doesn't have a choice dialect. I just need to make that. And with my kid as well, like, it's kind of. Well, I don't know if she knows me as well.

[B]

It is cool. Cause there's an answer and then there's a will.

[A]

Well, I mean, there's always a two. There's always another side to the coin, of course, but the. Yeah. Seeing it's a different. Yeah. When your kid is looking at you. It's a different type of knowing as well. Because it's knowing without any. I mean, obviously they have desires from you. But it's funny when they're just. It's just pure curiosity. And when you conceive it, they don't have a single issue with you, which is great.

[B]

How freeing.

[A]

It's so nice.

[B]

They're not pissed, they're not mad. Although sometimes they are. They're crying.

[A]

They're going to swing. That's it. Look at this. It's the kind of relationship I understand.

[B]

It will probably get more complicated than swing though, right? It might. It might. Maybe. What about you? Last time you felt known?

[C]

I feel like. I feel really. I feel really known by like my partner, by, like my friends, by my family. Like, I do feel like the core people around me. I feel very. I think that's when I'm happiest, is when I'm with all of those people. It's just like I feel like I'm not thinking so much and you know, trying to think about what I'm gonna say before I say it, like, right now, but you know what I mean, it's like you just, you know, they know you. They see you and you feel safe and you feel like. And also, it's just like they see me as the adult I am now, but, like, my siblings also see me as their little sister.

[B]

All the past versions of me.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

All the past stacked on top of each other. Yeah.

[C]

And. And that love and that care or that protection or that whatever that looks like from them is still very, very true. You can feel it, you know, so that's special.

[B]

Robert Pattinson. Zendaya, thank you so much for this conversation. That was at times a debate. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

[C]

But ultimately, he agreed with me. No, he definitely.

[B]

He agreed with you. Ultimately, he agreed with you. Thank you so much.

[C]

He really appreciated you.

[B]

Thank you. The Modern Love team is Amy Pearl Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Reeva Goldberg and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Reeva Goldberg and Elisa Gutierrez. It was edited by Lynn Levy and Jen Poyant. Tom Hopper recorded this episode at Quixote Studios, and our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez. We had production help from Paula Neudorf, Sophie Erickson, brooke Minters, Tom McEvoley, Nick Krause, Jackson Montemayor, and Caleb Haas. Original music in this episode by Alicia Bitoop, Diane Wong and Dan Powell. Dan also composed our theme music. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones, and Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we've got the instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.