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- [00:00]
A
You've got a line that says, being a role model is taking its toll. Yeah, how so? How does being a role model take its toll?
- [00:08]
B
What song is that from? Now?
- [00:10]
A
That's a freestyle. It's from the Charlie Sloth original 10 years ago. Sorry. No, it's from the second one that you did or the most recent one. It's from number two or number three.
- [00:19]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [00:21]
A
Being a role model's taking its toll.
- [00:22]
B
I mean, look, so as I was just telling you there off camera, I've just not long come back from Miami and I've been. I'm flirting with the idea of writing something, bit of a book. And I get this message off a woman and she's like, you know, my eight year old autistic son wrote today in school that you're his superhero. I'm flipping sat there in this little quirky hotel room that's got like a record player and like Bob Marley records and stuff. And I decided to just, you know, get a contact and give her a ring. They've actually came to like meet and greets before to meet me and I just wanted to speak to her about it and just see what it is that these kids and these, you know, people in general, you know, seeing me and where they're actually taking strength. So I guess when you understand that things like that are going on, you start to take your job description more serious because, you know, people are. Some people are living by the things that you say, you know, And I find it keeps me sharp.
- [01:34]
A
Is there an additional type of pressure that comes along with that? It's kind of one that you didn't ask for. Right. It's a byproduct of doing what you do. It's a beautiful benefit, but it's a huge cost as well.
- [01:44]
B
Yeah, I think so. And actually I think I appreciate the pressure because it's this weird like paradox, right, of like you want to be the best version of you. You know, you want to grow into this individual that you see yourself being. But without the pressure, it's too easy to just not do it, you know, I'm running off. Not much sleep today. I've been to the gym, I've been boxing. But the pressure of knowing I've got this and I've got the things I've got coming next means that I'll keep rolling.
- [02:14]
A
Keeps you sharp.
- [02:14]
B
Yeah. If I didn't have them things, I'd have for sure laid in bed today.
- [02:18]
A
There's a bodybuilder called Chris Bumstead and he Was sat in that seat yesterday six time Mr. Olympia. He's kind of the. The Arnold of our era.
- [02:26]
B
Okay.
- [02:26]
A
And a good friend. And he had for a very long time, I think for almost all his career. His caption was, pressure is a privilege.
- [02:34]
B
It is, yeah. Yeah. I've, like, I've honestly, bro, I've done things in my career that I had no idea I was capable of, you know, no idea. I had a bike accident four or five years ago on the hospital bed. I get a message from Guy Ritchie. Would you like to be in another film? I'm like, yeah, but I need to learn to walk again first, you know? But the pressure pushed me to being maybe the fittest I've ever been. So it's definitely a privilege for sure.
- [03:12]
A
Is it hard to stay hungry when you've achieved 10 times all of the goals that you ever thought that you would have done?
- [03:19]
B
That's interesting to say, really, because. And it's a big conversation that's coming up at a minute in my. In my life in particular. And how I sort of planned it was I sort of planned the bigger picture. And because I used to box, I see opponents dotted about, so I'll try and sprint past them, you know, I'll try and win certain battles. So the bigger pitch is not done yet. And actually the picture evolves the more that I learn more stuff, you know, so I'm not actually quite there. So some of the achievements that I get are a surprise for me some of the time. So I think in terms of actually staying hungry, as I was saying to you then off camera, I've been listening to motivational videos and your voice keeps popping up. But that's because when I was about 20, 21, I experienced depression for about two years. I couldn't even get out of my bedroom almost. And that's when I started to learn about the law of attraction. Listening to motivational videos and sort of creating healthy habits to shake off this, like, dark place I was in, you know? So now I'm not in a dark place, but I could easily get comfortable. So you got to act with the same urgency. I find.
- [04:46]
A
I've heard you say that depression occurs when you're lying dormant.
- [04:49]
B
Yeah.
- [04:49]
A
When you've not got anything better to do. I think an interesting challenge there is the difference between keeping yourself so busy that you don't wallow, that you don't slow up so much, that dark things creep in, but also not just over scheduling yourself out of being able to hear the important insights that your brain whispers to you. Because when you're very, very busy and you're in chaos mode, you're not paying as much attention. Is this really what I should be doing? And how many artists and business owners and career people have spent so long just in the chaos, decades later they turn around and realize not only did they get to a place that they didn't want to get to, but one that they didn't even mean to be in. I was just on this set of train tracks. I didn't realize it wasn't train tracks, it was a car. And I could have turned left or right at any time.
- [05:43]
B
Yeah, I mean, look, I think there's a time and a place for the chaos, which is the come up. I think on the come up, there's like a glass ceiling that you're gonna have to break through. And by hook or crook, you gotta get through it. So the beginning 10 years of my career was chaos. I'm still putting things back together and in the correct place, like now and then. I actually put on my Instagram story the other day that balance is the answer to the majority of your questions. And what I mean by that is, like you say you can go over into chaos where you're becoming like a workaholic to get away from the sort of the darkness, or you can sort of wallow in the darkness. You gotta find a middle ground with that, you know? And what I found with dark thoughts or, you know, things that haunt you is you gotta lean into it, but you can't lean into it all the time over the top, because it gets heavy. So, yeah.
- [06:49]
A
It'S such a common talking point, I think. I like the fact that you call out the first 10 years of your career was chaos, and now the answer to you is balance. But if you had told you during those first 10 years to have balance, it wouldn't have worked. And I've come up with this insight with Chris again, the guy that was sat there yesterday. Model the rise, not the result. Because if you try, if somebody at the beginning of their journey tries to do what you now, as a veteran is doing, that wasn't how you got to where you are. That is how you are coping with your current position and how you're. It's a more advanced technique. It's someone walks into a boxing gym, okay, let's learn to throw a jab. Let's not try this really complex footwork pattern here. You'll do that down the line. So if someone that's a world champion says, well, a lot of what I'm doing at the moment, my competitive advantage is my amazing, complex footwork. Okay, but that's not what got you there. What got you there were the basics done really well. And the basics for most people at the start is chaos and not sleeping much and working really, really hard and no work. Life balance.
- [07:55]
B
There you go. And look, let's face it, like my come up was in the rap game. It's the youngest genre of music. You know, only the Americans have pushed it over to a place where you've got jay Z and 50 Cent and, you know, you start getting over here. It's an embryo, Right. So you're looking at a situation that really lacks structure and demonstrations. So a lot of it you. You're having to figure out as you go along. And then when you talk about rap music, it is. Well, essentially we're looking at a guy and he's come up, right? We look at a rapper we're interested in. You know, you're looking at a guy that's come from a difficult beginning. I can be quite articulate about that bit. And he talks about it and then we relate, we think, I like this guy. I relate to what he's saying. And then some label signs him or his career starts taking off and then he goes on the come up and he starts talking about what he's spending his money on. This country's not really got past that stage yet. We're still evolving from that sort of stage. So the first, for me, the first 10 years was establishing, you know, coming from outside of where the industry was sort of based, it was establishing like a foothold in the game as an independent, you know, and it was chaos because there was no roadmap. You know, you're walking in undriven snow. Yeah.
- [09:30]
A
How therapeutic was that process before we started? You were talking about the fact that you worked through a lot with your music.
- [09:37]
B
Yeah.
- [09:39]
A
Do you ever think about the therapeutic usefulness people? This might not be where most people go with the rap game, right? Oh, yeah. I went there to alchemize the first two decades of my life into something that made sense to me and construct a timeline, but it kind of seems like that happened.
- [10:01]
B
So the first. This is interesting, by the way, because I was on Instagram the other day and there's a Manchester guy and he's, he's. He's incarcerated as we speak and he's doing lyrics to camera. He's looking for his come up. He's looking to get into the rap game and get a start in his Life going to the next sort of level. And what he's done is he's took sort of the structure of my lyrics from a song called Beauty and the Beast, where I say, tell her that I'm coming home. And he takes that and he takes the sort of structure and does his own thing and tells his own story. Now, when I first started music, there was five years that nobody cared, right? And in that five years, I can say this now and sort of to look back in retrospect, I was using it to transcend depression. And me sort of vocalizing the way I was feeling was the quickest way for me to get an understanding of. Actually, that's not my fault, and I shouldn't be embarrassed about that. But in the mix, I sort of turned them into songs, right? And it's funny now because them songs have just become a part of the business. We've published them on itunes and whatever. Before, there was just this, like, underground archive of music that was just doing numbers, and I'm like, how does anyone even know them songs? Then my career takes off. This is where a lot of people get me twisted, because then I have a big rap battle with a big famous rapper, and a lot of people think, ah, this is the point that, like, you know, this is. This is it. But there was a full sort of lead up to that point that meant when the spotlight was on me, I was five or six years in with five or six projects under my belt, and I'd been working diligently in the shadows. So when I got my opportunity, I was more than ready. I was starving, you know. So what I'm getting at with the rapper there, that's using the structure of my lyrics, is when I first sort of got exposure and my first fire in the booth or whatever, and I'm telling my story, it's foreign to everyone. No one's really doing it. And actually, I'm talking about men's mental health, which now is a really popular category. But it wasn't then and not as a rapper. Thought he was a tough kid. What do you mean you was depressed? You know, but for me, I, I, the nature of me being interested in rapping is that, like, originally I was introduced to artwork, painting, art history and all that, so. And I'm a bit bone idle, so I find it, like, taxing to draw and paint, but I'm decent. However, I figured I can paint pictures with words in people's minds, and I find that more fluid. It just, it just comes to me fast, right? And yeah, I just, I feel like art is vulnerability. It's truth. Truth resonates. That's essentially what you're trying to do as an artist is speak your truth regardless to where society is at and what people think is cool or right or. And I've done it and for years I was, I was shunned for it.
- [13:25]
A
Why?
- [13:27]
B
Just because, like I say, men's mental health is a big topic now. I was talking about it years before it was interesting to anybody.
- [13:37]
A
Is it a big topic in the rap world yet?
- [13:39]
B
Still not. You've not noticed, you know, but that's, that's what I think. The reason that you get in an eight year old young autistic guy looking at me and being like he said, what did he say in his description? He said I'm his safe space. He says I understand him, you know, and we've only had little conversations at meet and greets, but in him saying that I understand him, it's because I'm speaking in the frequency of truth. And sometimes truth resonates on levels that you can't even verbalize. You know, it turns out the young boy's dad is in jail and so that young man's going through things but with his condition he's experiencing them differently to other people. So in me just being open about my struggle, I'm offering another human being a place to feel understood, which I think is quite important. You know.
- [14:39]
A
Hearing somebody say something and it resonating in the back of your mind and telling you the lesson, fuck, it's not just me is one of the best. I don't know whether we have an emotion for that. It's like recognition, sort of resonance, it's a sense of being seen.
- [15:03]
B
Or is it, or is it a sense of feeling human?
- [15:06]
A
Maybe being, at least for me it's less broken. I think we spent, for me, I spent so much time, have spent so much time in my head. I'm an only child, grew up in the northeast of the uk. I don't sound like I come from there. I went to state, primary, state, secondary, state, sixth form college. Like didn't do the things that the people in my school were doing and that meant I was always on the outside. But plus being an only child, you spend a lot of time in your head.
- [15:29]
B
Oh really?
- [15:31]
A
And that means you can get yourself into a situation where you feel like any challenges that you're facing are a personal curse. That's just you. Like only I feel this thing, only I have this thought, only I criticize myself in this way have this shortcoming. And when you hear someone that has the same fear or uncertainty that you do, you go, it's not just me. Thank fuck it's not just me. I'm not cursed by the gods. This isn't some unique designer disease that I have this weird pathology of one. It's not that maybe I'm not quite as strange and broken as I thought I was.
- [16:25]
B
However, I'll throw a component on the table here. The more that I've sort of grown into my success, the more I understand that, like, as a spirit, I have a purpose, this something that I'm here to do. And we all feel it in us that there's a purpose, there's a bigger meaning, there's a. You know, and I've been. I've been really trying to get to grips with that. And I think when you have real potential to do something special in terms of, like, contributing back to the planet, I think you get individual challenges. And I think that, you know, my life was quite hard pretty early on, and I could see lots of people that didn't have that particular challenge at that particular time, but that was my individual journey. So, you know, although you're saying, yeah, it's not like this personal attack from the gods, they are your set of challenges for you as an individual that give you the opportunity to become your higher self. And the reason I say that is because if I didn't have the bike accident I had for an example, that for me was a huge challenge, you know, and then I was coming back from that. I'm thinking, yeah, I'm bouncing back. The rap game's young. This will be like a comeback, the biggest UK comeback in history. And then I. Then I was hit with a blood clot. And then there's. Then there's a bigger challenge than the bike crash. And then you realize, like, no, no, no, this is for you to sit down and reflect and, you know, really be broken and rebuild. And although I come flying out the gates looking confident and looking strong, like it was a dark place.
- [18:19]
A
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- [19:32]
B
For sure, for sure. I. I was in a relationship at a time and the relationship, it was. It wasn't right for a long time, but the girl was a really nice girl and it was love, for sure. However, we were sort of just slowly but surely growing apart bit by bit. And I sort of didn't know it until, like, I. The night I'm sat in the hospital and I know that I've got this blood clot and it's in my leg and blood clots, you know, famously travel. I knew I was potentially in trouble that night and I had this moment where I'm like, I have to. There's some difficult decisions I need to make in life. There's some friends that, you know, this isn't. It's not a true friendship, the relationship, although it sort of ran well and it was a great girl, it wasn't necessarily right, you know, so there was just big decisions that needed to be made. In terms of the actual crash. I was just flying up the road and flipping.
- [20:43]
A
What was it? What's the vehicle?
- [20:44]
B
It was a three wheeler, probably inspired by Batman and a cannon. So it's fast off the line. It's fast. And I was, yeah, I'm going through like a sort of a junction and a car just sort of pulls out on me, but, like slow. So, you know, you're crashing for about 10 seconds, 15 seconds, and you're like, ah, smash. Unconscious. Woke up on the floor, people's feet around my head. You all right, mate? You all right, mate? And like, noise comes back slowly, like muffled. And then. And it's a really strange situation. To be lay on your back in public, right? Like, if you've not chose to lie on the floor, if you've not chose to lie on the floor in public and you wake up on the floor in public, it's weird. And I was like. I was like, lay there and I've tried to get up and dropped, and I'm like, oh, I'm in some kind of trouble. So it turns out I snapped my patella kneecap, and I'd fractured my skull in three places. So I had bleeding on the brain, but my head's open, so there's a puddle of blood next to me that's just growing. And that was a weird process because. And head blood is different to other blood, I think, because it was thick. There's a deep red, and it's coming. You can see it's coming from my head. And I'm sort of laid there, and then people are talking to me. And then. And people are filming me. And in this weird moment of a guy being like that with his phone, I realized, like, oh, like, this is one of the first times in my life as an adult, I felt helpless because I can't even ask that guy to stop filming. So you're just being filmed, you know, and people are like, who should we contact? I'm like, let my girlfriend know I've wrapped up. She comes, she sees my face, she panics, like, horror, starts to cry. And I was like, don't cry. Because of the nature of my background. I said to her, if anything really bad happens to me, and it's a bit bloody and a bit gory, you know, don't panic, and just get yourself somewhere safe. And so there we were in the situation. So I said, don't cry. And you seen her snap out of it and realized, like, let me, you know, usher people out of the way. And that was that. And then her dad turned up.
- [23:17]
A
So she got there before the ambulance.
- [23:18]
B
She got there before the ambulance, yeah. And then her dad turned up. You see me burst out crying. That's another weird one, because people are seeing you and then you see their reaction, right? And when someone looks at you and they burst out crying, you know, you're in some trouble, you know. So this. This blood keeps growing. The patch next to me, the puddle next to me. And then when the ambulance guy got there, he was like, all right, mate, we're gonna get you onto the stretcher. And then as my ex girlfriend and people, like, step back, I've gone, am I dying? Like, do I die here? You know, and he was like, don't worry, mate, we're going to get you on, I think legally and not allowed to tell you. Yeah. So I don't know whether you can.
- [24:06]
A
Be sued by somebody who you say isn't dying that then dies.
- [24:09]
B
Yeah, I think they're not allowed to because that's so. And that was that. And then you're in the back of an ambulance. That's a new experience. Blue lights also bumping around. And then you get your head sort of flipping boarded to the stretcher. And then you saw rushed into hospital. I was in Salford Royal, so that's like an old sort of stomping ground. So the nurses was really kind and, like, endearing. They was spiritual. So he was doing Reiki over me while I was. While I was relaxing, you know, So I was just in there having. Having good fun, but also, like, morphing up, you know, and doing a lot of sleeping. So, yeah, I mean, it was a. It was a profound experience in that it needed to happen for me to dig into why it needed to happen. It's a funny one, because when I was coming onto this podcast, the reason I said to you over there, I'm a bit nervous is because I respect your work, right? And I respect it because it's sophisticated. You can go on too many levels with many different types of people, which I'm capable of doing also. But I heard a thing the other day, because I'm trying to study some literature. I think the fans want me to write a book. All right? And I was looking into J.K. rowling, and the interviewer said, do you think you're one of the people in the world that's got the, like, one of the largest understandings of the class system? Because you. You was in a situation where you was just before being homeless, you were so poor, you was just before being homeless, and now you've climbed up to being a billionaire. And she was like, I mean, yeah, you could say that. And to some extent, you know, she's within her rights to say that. However, that made me think, what must I understand? Because I'm from the place beneath what people deem is to be the bottom. There's also the minus, you know, so the bike accident had to happen because things were potentially getting dark, you know, and sometimes there is sort of divine intervention. It was better that I hurt myself then, you know, I end up in a crazy situation.
- [26:29]
A
What would have happened if you hadn't gone through that bike accident? What could you envision?
- [26:35]
B
I mean. Good question. Right? But what just what I know is, you know, people in. In music will refer to me as the king of the north. The. The first one from the north of England to get into the music industry and. And make sort of leeway in the rap space. That comes with ramifications, you know, if you're going to be turning up in a new car every couple of weeks and a new watch and flipping, you know, and your family infrastructure fell. Fell to bits and you ended up in sort of gang culture. And a gang becomes your family and you're as good as them and you're the one that's winning. You know, it just. It gets small, it gets intense, and I'm easily provoked. So it was just a recipe for disaster. So it was just chaos, a part of the chaos. And you have to just lean into it.
- [27:29]
A
I've heard you say I put a lot of my identity into being a guy that could look after myself. So when I was smashed to bits, I didn't know how to react. So you've got this very classic, came from the bottom, self sufficient. Hansi had to be able to defend yourself and defend. Not only defend yourself physically, but philosophically. What is it that I stand up for? What does my virtue look like? And if somebody crosses a line and maybe the line can be a little bit further away from you, people can cross it more easily than they might do with other people to then I have the eyes of the world on me now, which is more pressure. And I'm back to square one. I'm now dependent again. Something that I spent most of my childhood and all of my adult life trying to escape from dependence, needing anybody. I've got agency, I've got independence now. I'm back then was that humbling is going to be too basic of a word. What was that to you?
- [28:35]
B
Like? Scary is a bit of a more appropriate word. I remember in. In my Manchester house, it was sort of in the. On the outskirts towards the countryside, right? And I'd had this. These guys try and break in. I had a big fight with them. That's to do with that. That's to do with exposure. And then all of a sudden you sort of sat there as a sitting duck, flipping. And I had this little, like, outhouse I called the Batcave, right? And I'm sitting there watching a film. And the film was called Bleed for this. I'll never forget this night. And I'm sat there, my legs sort of up on the chair, broken kneecap. I get. I get dizzy if I go like that. Because my brain's been bleeding, so you'll just start to fall.
- [29:25]
A
How long is this after the crash, do you think?
- [29:27]
B
This is maybe a month afterwards, but for three months after the crash, I'm dizzy if I raise my head. So I'm so sat there watching this film about a boxer. It's a boxing film. I love boxing. I want to get back, like, fit and strong and I'm going to make this big comeback. Right. And then part way through the film, smash, he just has the craziest car crash. And my ex girlfriend at the time, she'd jumped up awake. And at that point I'm having like this mad sort of PTSD from the car crash. Because you do experience that in the beginning when I first got in cars and cars would go over 40 miles an hour, you start getting a bit nervous. It's weird. I had to surpass that. So there was little simple sort of challenges that I think some people, it sort of stays with them and they stay nervous forever. But you've got to get back on the horse, so to speak. Anyway, in being like in my adrenaline going in that moment, I sort of thought about all of the crazy situations I've been in in my life and that every one of those individuals that there's been problems with or altercations or are jealous of me or, you know, I've not been completely polite with, you know, if there was ever a moment where they could get me, it's no, it just like freaked me out. And then I. Yeah, I realized I was probably too heavily reliant on physicality. But look, that's that world, you know, if you're going to drop beneath, you know, into the minus, and you're going to exist in that world, then it's a. It's a huge currency being able to, you know, look after yourself.
- [31:07]
A
What did recovery look like to get yourself back to fully functional?
- [31:13]
B
It looked like a message off Guy Richard, you fancy being in a film again? And me saying, yeah, damn right, I'll get it done.
- [31:19]
A
Was that more important than some of the rehab?
- [31:21]
B
In some ways, probably, because I remember pulling up outside rehab one day and I had a Scottish friend, he was a boxer and he'd committed suicide, you know, so I was outside dealing with my own. I'm writing an album, by the way, so I'm writing like the resurrection through these stages of recovery. And I have up days because of the sort of life that I come from. I learned to laugh through traumatic situations. So I'll have up days where I'm just laughing my head off. And then I have days where it catches up with me and I feel quite low. And then it's topped off with, you know, such and such has hung himself. I just remember being like sat outside physiotherapy and a little tear rolled down my cheek and I literally just had to suck it up and get in there and get it done. Cause you're going through pain like every session. It's crazy pain, you know. But in my head I could see Jason Statham. Cause I knew he was gonna be in the film.
- [32:23]
A
So this is the second one.
- [32:24]
B
This is the second film. Yeah. I'd done the Gentleman and I'd been offered this like action sort of bigger role. Bigger role. Jason Statham, notoriously known for his ability in sort of combat sports and his physique, his, you know, so I've got.
- [32:41]
A
To try and keep up with him.
- [32:41]
B
He's a man's man. And yeah, I just felt like I'm not turning up there to be like the tag along. Like I'm gonna try and on screen fit the bill.
- [32:53]
A
I think the comparison between your first role, which was not simple, but at least you were playing an analogous character to yourself in A Gentleman, right? Not too dissimilar to. You're not for all that you've got talents. You're not a weapons expert, right. Like with sniper rifles and like that. So you're okay. I'm being really, really ripped out of the world that I know. And I think at least what I take away from from that is that somebody who's got a lot of self motivation and discipline and is powered by what they want to achieve, still needs a goal to be moving toward in order to drag them through a very difficult time. Because had you have not had this new challenge, this new outcome, this new peak that you're aiming toward, how much harder is it going to be for you to go through? Where is the motivation? It's purely self generated as opposed to every single training session, every single rehab session. Jason Statham's there.
- [34:03]
B
Yeah, like having a goal for sure changes it. If there was no goal, it would have just been a more thorough process of healing because I'd have got it done just off the back of discipline. And some of the motivational videos that I said I've been listening to and your voice is popping up like, that's some of the points it's making is that like motivation's not always there, but I'm going to get the job done regardless. Yeah, like I'm getting it done regardless.
- [34:26]
A
You know my favorite lesson from Jocko Willink, Navy SEAL guy.
- [34:29]
B
Yeah.
- [34:32]
A
People think that discipline is when you want to do a thing or feel like you're going to do a thing. But doing the thing in spite of not wanting to do the thing is discipline. That is what discipline is.
- [34:46]
B
Yeah.
- [34:47]
A
If you want to do the thing, it doesn't take any discipline to do it. Did it take discipline to eat the cheesecake? No, it took discipline to not eat the cheesecake because you have to force yourself to do the thing that you do not want to do. That is what discipline is. He's got the same thing around bravery. Says doing the thing in spite of not wanting to do the thing in spite of being scared is what bravery is. If you're not scared, there's no such thing as bravery.
- [35:11]
B
There you go. And by the way, you said that before, right? In another. That's. I'm sure that's the line that keeps coming up in this motivational video.
- [35:17]
A
You got a lot of rendition.
- [35:18]
B
Yeah, I'm having Deja Ivory. But no, it's. No, it's true. It's true. Like, and, and they're some of the things that were sort of resonating with me in times where, like you say, you get to a place in your career that you're successful, you know, sleep starts to feel a bit more comfortable, you know, the cheesecake starts to look a bit more interesting. And you really gotta start to figure out what it is you're trying to do with the time you've got on the planet.
- [35:44]
A
You've probably heard me talk about element before. Come on. Frankly, that's because I'm dependent on it. And it's how I've started every morning for the last three years. Element is a tasty electrolyte drink mixed with everything that you need and nothing that you don't. Each grab and go stick pack contains a science backed electrolyte ratio of sodium, potassium and magnesium. With no sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients or any other junk. It plays a critical role in reducing muscle cramps and fatigue while optimizing brain health, regulating appetite and curbing cravings. The orange flavor in a cold glass of water is like a sweet, salty, orangey nectar. And I genuinely feel the difference versus when I've started it and when I've used it and when I haven't. Anyway, they've got a no questions asked refund policy with an unlimited duration. So you can buy it and try it for as long as you want. And if you don't like it for any reason, they will give you your money back and you don't even need to return the box. That's how confident they are that you'll love it. Plus, they offer free shipping in the US and right now you can get a free sample pack of elements, most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below. Heading to drinklmnt.com modernwisdom that's drinking lmnt.com modernwisdom develop a prison in that way. I'm interested in if you've got a lot of pain that you're working through at the start of your career, writing inspiration, motivation to go and achieve things. Is it a different skill to keep working hard without the pain to push you forward?
- [37:25]
B
Yeah, yeah, he's transferring. I mean, there's always some pain in life, right? These little bits of pain and these big bits of pain. So it's. It's sort of. Yeah, sort of making them. It's a transferable skill. I think that just feels uncomfortable at first, you know, because if you're. If at first you're motivated by pain and stress and in my early career, I was motivated by sort of competition with, you know, not very legitimate characters. It was just a world I understood. And the sort of fear of there being a potential problem would make me think, I'm not living like this forever. I'm not getting trapped in this. Like, I need to. I need to refine my approach to going to where I'm going. Because right now it's a million miles away, you know, and it's interesting, actually, because I. I remember. I remember before being in a gentleman film, being sort of parked outside the boxing gym and ending up in a physical altercation with a guy that had just got out of jail for. He killed his cousin. Killed his own cousin. This is. This is me bringing you into Manchester, all right? There's no rappers, there's these rappers, but they're not earning a living from music, you know, substantially. And there's some talented guys, but they're not making inroads into the game, right? And I'm sat there, I'm a couple of years into being a bit famous, making some music, and there's this whole sort of inspirational thing building up. And this guy that's just flipping. He killed his cousin nine years ago. He does nine years in jail. He bugs him alone. Sat in a car, he's banging on the door. Long story short, me and him end up in a fight. I'm outside the boxing Gym. I'm going to the boxing gym to do some sparring because I'm. That's the way I stay on the straight and narrow, you know, because I'm not signed to a major label or like I go into being in a really sort of famous situation to just having free will. And that's where a lot of rappers or famous people fall to bits. Because they don't fill that middle bit with anything productive. They go to the clubs, they see different women. You know, there's no structure to it, so they fall to bits. So boxing has played sort of a role in just sort of keeping me focused until sort of the next assignment. Anyway, I get into this flipping big kerfuffle with this guy and I come out of the situation and because of the way that the situation went, he wanted retribution or whatever you'd call it. And it was, it was. I took motivation from that. The fact that this guy says, when I see you, I want to do whatever. I would take motivation from situations like that. You sort of climb in your career and them situations subside and. Right. And you're just dealing with your own ambition, your own sort of goals and you're no longer fueled by fear or, you know, anxiety or whatever it is.
- [40:50]
A
Chip on your shoulder.
- [40:51]
B
Yeah. And I did, I found that difficult. And that's where the whole sort of be inspired model sort of came from. Because if I see people have done well for themselves, I wanna, I wanna study the history. How did he do well for himself? Why did he do well for himself? Where did it go wrong? Did it go wrong? You know, and in, in studying different people, the Roman Empire, emperors, kings, you know, I sort of seen the people that failed and the patterns as to why they failed and the people that sustained and remained impressive throughout the life.
- [41:33]
A
What are some of those patterns that you've noticed?
- [41:36]
B
Vices, Vices. And that's why I say. And what I sort of seen is that some of them people didn't come from the streets or the minus. They had good parents and nice life, but life still presents bits of pain. Right. And I think that undertone, Garba mate, is quite good around this topic. I think the sort of undertone to any vice is like a sort of low level pain. It's like having a headache all the time. You want to suppress the headaches, you want paracetamol. Right. But then people do it by way of vices. Gambling, drinking, drugs, smoking, all of the vices. And I feel like them vices grab people. Seven deadly sins lost, gets people Greed gets people. And I think. And I think you. You're attacked by them things. I think the higher you sort of climb in towards doing something positive for the world and sort of instilling love back into a world that's always like battling and battling each other. I think the more you're attacked by these, you know, lust, greed.
- [42:48]
A
Oh, that's interesting. That's interesting that it is a counterweight. As you put things into the world that you think are good, you are tempted by ever more seductive and ever more advanced.
- [43:02]
B
Let's give it biblical framework, right, which is we've got these stained glass windows. If you look at it from a position of if you believe you're a soldier of God, you're doing God's work on the planet, and that's just being a good person, you know, helping, contributing. You might be a teacher, you might do charity work, you might do a podcast and inspire people, music, whatever it is. And your intention is to be as helpful to the planet as you possibly can. And we're using this biblical framework and seeing it like it's a film. Then, you know, it's as if. It's as if demons are now triggered by and the light that you carry. And they're like, how can we stop him seeing his highest potential? Because if he sees it, he's going to create more light and a shadow can't exist in the light, you know, so you're a threat. So you get attacked from all different angles, you know, and if we're talking quite spiritually there in the sort of physical world that comes by way of lots more girls approaching our boys, not girls with good intentions. Lots more friends want to be around you now, but they ain't got good intentions either. You're not, like I say, the cheesecake looks a bit nicer. The nightclub seems a bit more interesting, you know, and without saying any names, we've. We've all seen people that have fell. That's throughout history. And if you look at it, it's the same thing that over and over again that. That grabs them and pulls them. So on the flip side of that coin, we. We're talking about the people resilient enough to transcend the urge to give in to vices. And in the process of that, you got to lean into the pain. Whether it's old situations you went through, old family situations. Whatever pain it is you feel, you gotta face it. And that's what anybody that's been interested in my music has sort of witnessed, has been the process of me Looking my traumas in the face and becoming comfortable with them. Yeah. And understanding that I'm strong enough now to withstand the pressure that that makes me feel or the sadness it makes me feel. And understanding that it's okay to feel sad about a trauma, traumatic event that happened, that's how you should feel because you're human. So they're the people I'm impressed by. So when you're talking about Matthew McConaughey, Denzel Washington, these people that have just sort of figured out a job description and become really good at it and then. And then just kept climbing and building and refining themselves. And I think I seen McConaughey's talking about how he used to drink a lot or, you know, he's human and he's been through his stages. To them, for him to get to where he. He's landed, he's double impressive.
- [46:02]
A
That's the unique challenge I think of being somebody who's started to achieve some success and then has a pullback. Because at the very beginning, there's nobility. There's. Every single underdog movie in history is some guy coming from nothing and working hard to win the girl, free his family from poverty, fix whatever the problem is. When you have something that involves, there's a guy who's got it, lost it. Okay, now what are you going to do? Because that feels very different. For glory kind of only exists in retrospect. It doesn't happen in the moment. And if you are somebody that is currently on a pullback. Well, I thought you said that you'd stop drinking or you're drinking again or you're back there.
- [46:58]
B
So by pullback, you mean like a relapse type.
- [47:01]
A
Yeah. Or a crash where you start to self doubt. Oh, I thought I'd overcome my self doubt. Well, you've been thrown a heavier challenge. You've been given something that you in the past would not have been able to get over. But luck's from the outside, like, kind of a similar situation. Okay, we're back to something close to zero. How are we gonna deal with this? Well, if I don't come back from this, this is the footnote. This is how it ends. This is the final chapter of the story. If I don't overcome this, and that's the difference between being the person who did continue and did stay resilient or the one who gets added to the much bigger pile of people who were caught by their vices. And fear is certainly one of those big vices.
- [47:47]
B
Yeah, Yeah, I totally agree, by the way. And like, so I've been doing some writing at the moment, and I'm sort of doing. I don't know if I should be saying this because it's very early on in the process. Right. But it's like a sort of a biography, but it's sort of self help in that. What I'm basically saying is that life is a set of battles. It's a set of fights. And all you can really do is be prepared for them fights when they. When they turn up. So a lot of people will see me box into quite a high level, and they're like, why is he boxing so much? Is he gonna fight? But for me, the framework of boxing, when I'm performing well in boxing, I know I'm physically and psychologically and spiritually ready for whatever lands on my desk, you know, and that's just. That's just the way that I feel. Life is structured. I feel like no matter who you are and how you live in what world you come from, life is going to challenge you. And I think it's the ability to be able to overcome each one of them. Challenges with a bespoke strategy each time. Which separates the champions from the, like you say, the people that fail, essentially.
- [49:02]
A
I think my favorite idea I've learned from you since doing my research is it's easy to be inspirational when everything's going well. You can talk about how important discipline is and that motivation is fleeting. It comes and goes. Discipline is always there. Doing the hard thing in spite of not wanting to do the hard. It's blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That's like being generous when you're rich.
- [49:25]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [49:27]
A
When things are going badly and you're suffering, how tough is it to put your motivation where your mouth was? To put your discipline where your mouth was? Oh, you said that this was important. You said that overcoming hard things was important.
- [49:42]
B
Okay, game time.
- [49:44]
A
Let's see how well you can do.
- [49:45]
B
Yeah, yeah. And that's. That's been my experience of the success journey. Because one, at some point it's, you know, the boat's floating and it's fine, and then the next thing there's a storm baling water. Right. You know, and like, in. In that sort of happening, it's game time. At that point, are you who you say you are or did you lose it? You know, have you gone soft? Have you got the silk pajamas on? You know, and. And you find out about yourself. So the bike accident taught me about myself. I used to judge myself on these sort of small situations that I'd overcome in the streets. And then you have a blood clot pass through your heart and you survive that because your arteries are clean, because you've ate well and you've continued training for many years and, and you've got the resilience to survive the two or three hour process that it takes to sort of go through your heart. You, you understand you've got a different kind of strength, you know, and you sort of respect yourself more because it's not a, it's not a bravado, it's not, it's not, it's nothing to do with anything like that. It's just a resilience and a, a passion to live. And I didn't know that about myself. And actually I think to go on a deeper level with you, I think the bike accident happened to me. It was. If I was being asked, do you want to live or not. I think the sort of past that I've come from makes you so self destructive that in moments of madness you're like, I don't care what happens. And actually when I fell off my bike and I was laying on the floor and this little puddle of blood keeps growing, there's a, there was a part of me that was like, this might be easier, you know, if that's just going to keep leaking until I'm fading out and then I'm gone. It could be easier than the complications of family situations I've had to go through and pains I've had to live through. And you know that, that was my attitude and that's why I'm sort of just lay on the floor accepting it because I'm like, we'll see what happens. And then when you get to the blood clot going through your heart and it's lodged, it's like there's a question being asked, do you want to live or not? Before I bless you with all of these great things that you've imagined happening in your mind, you're gonna do all these great things and contribute back to the world. At first you have to commit to loving yourself. And that's what I think I'd lost the ability to do through all the abuse that I went through growing up or whatever. Abuse is like the, the between the lines says that you're not lovable. Do you get me? And I sort of embraced that thinking. So it was all bravado. My self esteem was, it was bravado. But like deep down, you know, I was like, I sort of don't care what happens to me. And and the crash brought that to a head. It's like, now we're gonna have to.
- [52:51]
A
Have this conversation because you have nothing to be. To. To base your bravado on. How are you going to flex if you can't move your head without feeling?
- [52:59]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's game, set and match. And what. What do you want? Because you're talking big like you want to be this. This motivation to the world. You want to. You want to earn yourself some money. You want to bring. You want to have a functional family, a functional wife, functional kids, and a beautiful house. That's a creative space and all these mad ideas and plans, but you've not yet figured out how to love yourself. Well, if you can't love yourself, who can you love? And that's sort of what I learned about, like, trauma. Trauma sort of chips away at the ability to love yourself. And in losing the ability to love yourself, you lose the ability to love anybody else or the world or creatures in the world. You know, you see people being cruel to dogs. It's all coming from inside. They can't love themselves. So that's what happened when. The night of that blood clot.
- [53:48]
A
What was this? Was the blood clot due to the crash? Something related to the crash?
- [53:53]
B
Like, so I'm in Salford Royal Hospital, right? And the nurses are a great laugh. We're sitting there, I'm like, nurse. She's like, what? I'm like, I want to watch a film. She's like, click on the film. Then I'm like, it costs money. I've had a crash.
- [54:05]
A
You've been a diva.
- [54:06]
B
I've got no dough. She's like, do you want me to lend you some dough? I'm like, let me some dough. So we're laughing our heads off all day, and I'm on morphine. Turns out I'm a great laugh on morphine. I've never took it before, so I didn't know. So I'm just laughing my head off, right? And then it's Covid. So loved ones aren't allowed into the. Into the hospital, right? And when I was getting discharged, they said, you should put weight on your foot because I've got this broken kneecap and I'm in a cast, like a brace. And I. I forgot because morphine is one hell of a drug, you know? So I'm not. I wasn't better. I just thought, it hurts. I'm not going to put weight on it. I've got crutches. I'm not going to put weight on it didn't put weight on it. And then the. And then I changed my diet a little bit. I started eating things I wouldn't normally eat, right? I was the guy training and eating salmon and eggs for breakfast and all that. All of a sudden I'm having like scones, clotted cream, jam, cup of teas in the morning, like I'm going mad. And like it's thickened my blood, you know, and it's resulted in a clot. And once a clot's there, it does one or two things, you know, it either lies dormant and sort of dissipates, if you like, dilutes or whatever, or it travels. And with me, because I had bleeding on the brain, they couldn't give me the full dose of blood thinners. So there was two weeks, there was two weeks that I knew I had a blood clot in my leg. My girlfriend at the time, her uncle died from a blood clot in the leg because it went through his heart and killed him. So I know what I'm up against. I've got two weeks of that where they put me on half the dosage of blood thinners I should be on because my brain's bleeding and if my blood goes too thin, I am in all sorts of trouble, you know. And through that stage, it was Guy Ritchie that sort of leaned in closer to me and he said, me and you'll speak every day until you come through this. And he just used to chat to me at some point and the dad, have me dinner and flipping, then guy chat to me, what are you up to? And we just have a little chit chat. And it was a. It was just a strange period of my life. And the weirdest thing is it was bliss. The only way I can describe that to you is it's out of your hands. It's like it's imminent death or not. You can't manipulate, you can't run from it. It's not like someone's going to turn up and beat you up and you can run out the back door. It's like this. You're. You're condemned. And in feeling condemned, I just felt bliss. It's hard to explain. I was happy, I was like I was free. Because all of a sudden it didn't matter whether I failed. Do you know what I'm saying? You, surely you understand the, the sort of climb of like building a thing and the pressure that you put yourself under to achieve the things you believe you're capable of achieving. All of a sudden that was just out of window. So I felt relaxed about the whole thing. Yeah.
- [57:18]
A
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- [58:30]
B
I mean, look, I've done a, I've done a film, I spent some time with him off set and I guess what you saw witnessing is just his excellence is he's just somebody that I could relate to and somebody that I. Somebody that makes you sort of understand that success in what we deem as success. We look at his brand, right, and we see success. It's, it's the result of years of sort of work and refinement and when you understand that, it breaks it down because it's such a big brand that if you're not careful you just see a giant and then when you speak to the human being behind it you're like, oh, oh. Like you've really worked your ass off for years, you know. So I learned that and there's lots of other little sort of details I sort of learned. But like that was the sort of main thing that I understood.
- [59:30]
A
Especially given that Guy makes very British films. Yeah, that feels like a very British philosophy. Very British sort of takeaway.
- [59:38]
B
Yeah, I guess.
- [59:39]
A
So the not getting too big for your boots. It's sort of keeping your feet on the ground and that's difficult. You know this, it's a double edged sword with British culture that we like to Take the piss. There is a little bit of tall poppy syndrome, and that's good for keeping people humble and for making some people driven. But it's also disincentivizing for people that want to take risk because they're worried, well, what are people gonna say in America? It's got a lot of problems, but they're very supportive of people being exploratory, adventurous, trying new things, aiming for the stars. We don't quite have that same positive sum influence in the uk. Maybe because it's a smaller country, we're waterlocked, the weather's not as good. That's just the culture. I'm not sure, but to think that you've got, like, England's Christopher Nolan and he is still focusing on the basics and still turning up every day and doing the hard thing. Yeah, that's inspiring.
- [60:47]
B
Yeah. It just changes your thinking because you think you've gone to a different level. And at this point, you can, like, kick back, chill a little bit and, you know, but you sort of see someone that's probably outworking the. The common man that turns up and, you know, goes to work or whatever, somebody that's putting in, like, hours into the craft. You understand that it's time to just sort of double down and go again.
- [61:14]
A
Also reminds you that there's problems that money and fame can't fix. There's challenges that money and fame doesn't overcome.
- [61:20]
B
For sure.
- [61:24]
A
Given that you're in an alternate universe, like, you're literally a different universe from the one that you started in.
- [61:31]
B
Yeah.
- [61:32]
A
Were there things that you thought the right amount of wealth and the right amount of attention would have just. Oh, you know, that's not gonna be. That's not gonna be an issue for me anymore. I'm gonna be. That is a byproduct of my situation, not of myself. Does that make sense?
- [61:52]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you. You. You know, it's a blur, right? You grow up in a household that's chaos and it's falling to bits, and the finances are low and the morale's low, and, you know, it's. It's chaotic and violent and stressful, and the blinds are closed because the bailiffs knock on every day. Like, it clouds what the answers are, because the answers are actually quite sophisticated. But for me, it's interesting. I've got a song called the Ten Graph Commandments, you know, and I say stage one is Make It, Maintain It. And what I'm talking about is, you know, in society, if you've got no money, you Just gonna come unstuck just because it's the way that, it's the way that things are sort of built up. You're just not gonna get much free time. You're not gonna get time to think. I'm gonna get time to be yourself. You've got no social mobility. You can't, you can't go to the places you want to go. And you know, some people need to heal, man. And that's why I've tried to make songs that touch on certain topics because people sort of are out there desperately needing to heal. But without the freedom that money can bring, you don't get the time to address certain situations, you know. So, yeah, in, in my calculations, which I'm quite accurate by the way, a lot of the time I feel like even when I'm wrong, I was right. And in my calculations I thought, first of all, I need some dough point blank and I'll get more sophisticated when I get there, you know. So when I got to a place where the dust had settled and I wasn't like new money anymore, and I didn't feel like I was going to go tumbling back to level one, which it probably felt like that for 10 years, I started to study on a sort of deeper level because these facets.
- [63:57]
A
Well, rule two is protect your energy.
- [63:59]
B
Right.
- [64:03]
A
It's interesting when you're right. It wasn't everything, but it was the first thing. It's the launch velocity that gets you off the, the launch pad right at that initial start. And without that there is a. There's multiple costs that you pay and you can't do much without it. But I think assuming that that was good and got me here means that that is all I'll ever need and is what will fix the remainder of the problems in my life is where people get stuck.
- [64:37]
B
Oh yeah, because you. And like look, by the way, that's why I say sort of be inspired. Because if somebody comes from a two parent household where the parents done well and the kid was able to go to university and whatever, like, it don't make that person any less of a person, right? They're still gonna have their. And you got to sort of respect the parents for building a platform, but that child has still got his own challenges moving forward. He can still fall to complete pieces, you know, so it, it applies no matter where anybody sort of starts. But if you've got no financial intelligence, there's no one to teach you about money, then you just think that money changes everything. You just think that it's the answer to everything. And it's not until you achieve them, sort of financial goals or certain car, certain house size or whatever that you like. Because you can see the trophy, right? It's there. And then you pick it up and it's completely hollow. You're like, oh, no. Because I thought inside that trophy was going to be the answers to all my trauma, all my pain, all my fractured and damaged relationships with family members that are dysfunctional and haven't transcended it. And I thought he was going to really. And it's like, no, no, no. What this does is gives you the freedom to do the work.
- [66:03]
A
And you just, like, you're telling me that this money is the entry ticket into the assault course, which I now have to go and do.
- [66:10]
B
You go invest in yourself. Self investment all the way through. And, and that's what, that's what had to happen. I, I remember, I remember. I remember buying a Lamborghini off the showroom, right? I'm say it's five, six, seven years ago, much younger and I'm brash. I need rappers in London to know I'm serious. You guys think you're serious. Like, we're not playing. So I'm big and boisterous about it. I'm filming myself on Instagram. I was one of the early adopters of, like, doing dumb on Instagram to, like, have people take notice. So I'm in the bank, like, yeah, I need to put 200,000 down, please. So I buy this car and then I get it all blacked out so everybody knows, like, it's paid for. You know, my name on the wheels and stuff. I remember, like, as I go to drive off the showroom, I don't know what I thought was going to happen. I probably thought I was going to take off and fly to Mars and, like, the rest was history. I come off the showroom and I was like, oh, oh. Like, nothing's changed. Not only has nothing changed, now I actually understand that financial gain isn't going to change certain things. Like, I'm still stressed out about that thing I was stressed out about this morning. I'm excited because I'm driving a Lamborghini, but, like, that's gonna fade. The novelty will wear off in 10 minutes and we're back to square one. And at that point, by the way, I've only really ever in the come up of my career, I only really spent money on investments that was an investment in the brand to show people that, like, you know, I'm not, I'm not Just saying it. I think a lot of successful people are just sort of saying it and they're telling you how to. You know, I've been around people where all these, like, females that will have a bibia, but they'll sell a workout plan. It's not the real thing. So I was trying to put my money where my mouth was and just be like, look, man, like I'm saying, I'm big and boisterous and I can back it up. So there was all self investment. However, then I had to invest time, energy and finances into sort of healing and understanding what the other great people that have existed on the planet understood.
- [68:32]
A
You know, people say, I'd rather be sat in a Lambo than sad in a fiesta.
- [68:36]
B
Yeah, they're not thinking straight.
- [68:39]
A
I think that that's completely backward because if you're sad in the fiesta, you still have the pipe dream that the Lambo might fix it. So in Will Smith's memoir, he says, when I was poor and miserable, I had hope. When I was rich and miserable, I was despondent. The point being that when you think the thing that was going to fix your problems is in your possession and your problems are still there, you ask yourself much deeper, much more difficult questions, and that sucks.
- [69:08]
B
So it's interesting, right, because one night I end up sat with Jordan Peterson. He's around a table. I'm satisfied. And I was able to tell him, like, I'm hundreds of hours into your work, you know, because I'm hundreds and hundreds of hours into psychology because, you know, a lot of people will go to a therapist and perhaps that works for them. But then a lot of people are trying to find somebody to. Or something to depend on to give them the answers. And I think that's going to null and void any process. Me, I just started doing the work and, and getting an understanding. I needed to break it down into sort of basic framework where I could get to the essence of what I was trying to figure out. Because the money didn't make it go away. And then the. The sort of key word that I figured was functionality, you know, functionality, what's.
- [70:05]
A
That mean to you?
- [70:06]
B
You know, it's what. It's what we're looking for, right? So when you're saying that what Will Smith is, you know, rich and sad, well, it's because you've not focused on functionality. It should become sort of the main focus in your. In your journey. Once you've got some finances, like some people want a billion pounds, they're not sure what they want a billion pounds for. And then they get there and they get sad and some of these people commit suicide. It's bad marriages, divorces, it's just a mess. And that's because what you got to do is you got to get some dough, park up for a minute and, and, and start your march towards, towards functionality. Because if you've come from a bit of a broken background, you're going to be dysfunctional. The people that brought you up are going to have been dysfunctional. The people you was brought up around, dysfunctional. So you've got traits and habits and neurological pathways that need reversing and breaking and snapping in half. And at that point, it's for you to understand this is a bigger job than getting some dough. Because actually you shouldn't be greedy. You should earn enough to be financially free, right? And once you've got to that stage, you've got freedom. So what you do with it is, is up to you. So if you want to build a business that sort of runs itself and keeps some money coming in, good for you because you're clever. But if you're going to invest your full time, energy and everything into being more rich, then, you know, it's the tortoise and the hare. Like the tortoise walks past you in the end.
- [71:40]
A
Was there something that you learned from Jordan in person that you hadn't picked up online? Was there anything you took away from your time with him?
- [71:48]
B
I'm like an obsessed person, right? So when I'm researching, I'm going all the way, I'm reading the books, I'm listening to the podcasts, I'm looking for the things that aren't there to be easily found. You know, so there was, there wasn't really the conversation didn't go down that route because it's like me meeting you outside of sort of your work. For me to pull you into a conversation about your work can just put a dampener on a conversation because I'm objectifying you as that guy that does that podcast instead of seeing you as a human being, right? So I was able to have just conversation with Jordan with the understanding of a lot of his sort of philosophy. And he's sort of one of many people that I've studied.
- [72:43]
A
You know, a quick aside, you've probably heard experts like Dr. Rhonda Patrick talk about the benefits of omega 3s. They support brain reduction. They support brain reduction, they support brain function, but they reduce inflammation, they improve heart health and are backed by hundreds of studies. It's really tough to get enough through diet. No one's eating that much salmon. Come on. And with Momentous, you know you are getting the highest quality Omega 3s on the market. They're NSF certified for sport and they're tested for heavy metals and purity, huge deal if you're getting anything that is seafood supplement related. Which is why Momentous is unparalleled when it comes to rigorous third party testing. What you read on the label is what's in the product and absolutely nothing else. Best of all, They've got a 30 day money back guarantee. So you can buy it, try it. How many? There's 60 capsules, you take two per day, you can take this entire bottle and if you don't love it, they'll just give you your money back. So it's risk free and they ship internationally. Right now you can get 35% off your first subscription and that 30 day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to livemomentous.com modernwisdom and using the code modernwisdom at checkout, that's L I V E m o m e N-T-O u s.com ModernWisdom and ModernWisdom a checkout. I love the idea of objectification. I've been thinking about this a lot. I sat next to Tucker Max. You know who he is?
- [74:03]
B
No.
- [74:03]
A
So he wrote a book called I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell. It was called Fratire. So it was 10, 15 years ago. He was a young guy drinking and partying and fucking women and writing about his exploits. It was like American Pie, the book, right? Like kind of like that. It was like semi memoir y stuff. And he was really fantastic. Then he went away, did a ton, like five years of daily psychotherapy and came back a changed person. Much more aligned, still very confident, but much more aligned. And I sat next to him at dinner in Austin, where I live now, and we were talking about objectification. And he was saying, to become successful as a man is to agree to allow the world to see you as a resource to be extracted from or a human to be objectified so that women have it in a different way. Women get objectified because of what they are, how they present, how people see them in the world. Yeah, men get objectified because of who they are and what they can offer you. And people see you as a resource.
- [75:18]
B
To be extracted from.
- [75:20]
A
And just that idea whenever I think about male objectification, because we think about McConaughey or Brad Pitt or, you know, But I don't think that that's most objectification that happens toward men. I think it's somebody that has fame and you want to be in the blast radius of that. You want to be in the containment zone.
- [75:40]
B
That's a good way of putting it.
- [75:41]
A
Yeah. Trickle down effect of somebody that has wealth and you want the opportunities or they get first access to investment deals or maybe they can give me some advice. And it's not reciprocal and it's transactional and transient and disposable. And I like the idea of sitting with somebody and not even necessarily having to talk about their work, not having to talk about the thing, but just seeing how they operate. And you can learn just as much from that as you can. Matthew McConaughey. I mentioned before we started, he's coming back on soon. I learned as much from watching the way that he talked about his tennis shoes. He wouldn't fucking shut up about these tennis shoes. These are the fastest tennis shoes on the market. I go straight from here to the tennis court. But just passion, commitment, charisma, kindness. It open to the room. So he wasn't bothered about sitting straight. He decided to come in and he put his chair right out to the side.
- [76:42]
B
He sat like this.
- [76:42]
A
And he's like, these tennis shoes. Fastest tennis shoes on the market. And he's just talking to everybody that was sat there. And I just thought, so fucking cool. Nothing about how you do a movie, nothing about how you act. And he's there and he's got nothing in his mouth. He's like, the way he does, like, does this. So cool. But yeah. To become. To be successful as a man is to agree to be a resource to be extracted from or a human to be objectified.
- [77:14]
B
Yeah. And it's, it's a. That's a difficult position to. To exist in, especially if you're street smart. You know, they say the terminology, you can't kid a kidder. And people are trying to warm you up and you know they've got a goal in mind of what they're going to extract from you. And what you're supposed to be is you're supposed to be blind to the fact that that's what they're doing. And if you're not, and if you do come from a situation where you're street smart. No. Or sharp, you see it coming every single time. And it's problematic because it changes your relationship to people much more skeptical. Yeah, well, just. I mean, you don't have to be. You can withdraw a little bit.
- [78:06]
A
Right.
- [78:07]
B
And yeah, actually much more skeptical because exposure means that everybody can. People can sort of see. People can see you more. You're more lit up, but actually you can see them more. And that's what they don't take into consideration. They're forgetting the fact that you're experiencing if they're not creative. Six people just used your same approach today, right. And you're supposed to. You're supposed to act like you can't see what they're doing.
- [78:38]
A
Okay, we're going through this again. That must be, you know, to fly the flag for the other side. I imagine that's what it's like to be a really attractive woman. That I always thought this. Hot girls on the Internet complain that they struggle to get guys to treat them. Well, treat them normally. And I think that's because there's this weird reality distortion field.
- [79:05]
B
I'm gonna try your drink.
- [79:06]
A
Get this in. Come on.
- [79:07]
B
If you're lagging, let me see what's happening. I'm not lagging. I don't normally.
- [79:10]
A
I don't think you're lagging.
- [79:12]
B
I don't normally do caffeine. Okay.
- [79:14]
A
Just a little. Just a little.
- [79:15]
B
I'm very interested to see what it tastes like.
- [79:17]
A
Okay, first sip review.
- [79:23]
B
I mean. Yeah, it's nice.
- [79:24]
A
Good. That'll do.
- [79:25]
B
And I'm not just saying it because you sat across the table.
- [79:27]
A
Thank you. Yeah, well, look, you've.
- [79:29]
B
And that fuel your focus. So I'm gonna get more focus now a little bit. Could I potentially change here as the.
- [79:35]
A
Yeah, well, if we start seeing you levitate, we'll know you've had too much.
- [79:38]
B
Oh, is that what I did?
- [79:38]
A
That does. What happened? Yeah, yeah.
- [79:39]
B
My vocabulary could increase and things like that.
- [79:42]
A
Well, if you start rapping, we'll know that it's working, but. Yeah, that must be what it's like to be a. To be an attractive woman. Your value to the world is immediately available for everybody to see. And you have. How are you able to discern whether or not this person who's talking to you and seems nice and seems like they've got your best interests at heart? What do they really want? What do they really want from you? So I guess on the same vein as that, have you found that fame has brought more freedom or more cages in that way?
- [80:20]
B
Do you know what? I don't take it too seriously, you know, because I'm independent, you know, so the actual term fame. I just don't take it too serious. I'm just. I'm just who I am. And I'm exposed. Sometimes I lean into it and do a bit more, and sometimes I take a step back and relax and I guess I've. I've. I've been sort of magnetic since I was a kid. I've always attracted a lot of attention for no particular reason. It's like my spirit or something. Just people gravitate towards me. And it's been like that since I was young. So it's always been the same process. So getting famous was just the accelerated version of that. Like, I'm not used to it. Do you know what I mean?
- [81:06]
A
So interesting.
- [81:06]
B
Yeah. Yeah. That's just the way it's sort of been. And I think when I see people that take fame too seriously, you know, I just know that they're gonna come unstuck. It's like you're gonna come unstuck because you're taking a thing serious that doesn't take you serious. Fame doesn't take anyone serious, man. It's just not. It's just not gonna, like, because this time, and there's changes in trends and there's, you know, so one minute you're famous and you pop in and you've done that last thing, and now people are treating you like this. And then the thing you've just done, everybody hates, and now people are treating you like that. You know, that's gonna. It's just gonna run. Run right with your mindset if that's something that you identify with, being a famous person. So I always sort of say I'm not a celebrity, but that's because that's how I'm framing it to myself. I think if I sort of walked around thinking I'm a celebrity in X, Y and Z if room, and nobody has a clue who I am, which happens a lot because you're in different places in the world and whatever, then you're gonna be like, you know, yeah. Like your identity has been messed with, you know? But if you can. If you can derive a sense of identity from. From who you actually are, you gotta get in tune with your spirit, you know, And. And when you start to sort of get in tune with your spirit, then no matter what changes around you, the environment, the surroundings, you. You know what you are, you know, where you stand, you know, so me coming to do this podcast today, I told you before, I'm nervous, but it's because I. I know that it's different, you know, it's a. It's a different situation. However, I also understand that I deserve to be here as much as A guy that might be 54 and has way more experience than me, way more accolades than me, you know, you. There comes a point where you start to understand that, like, you're, you're enough. And it's like a shame because society doesn't encourage that thinking, you know, so when I, I bump into a fan and he's like, bro, like, you're my idol, or I'm trying to be like you, it's like, no, no, you're. You're trying to be like you. And that's what you should be trying to do. Be the best version of you. Because for all you know, the best version of you is better than me. Well, where are you?
- [83:35]
A
The best that you can hope for if you're trying to be somebody else is being the second best in the world at something. No one's gonna beat you at being you.
- [83:43]
B
Exactly. Exactly.
- [83:45]
A
The best you can hope for is to be the second best. Bugsy Malone.
- [83:48]
B
Yeah. Yeah. No one can beat you at your personal set of skills. So before, when you were saying, you know, you're a single child and you start to talk about the components that sort of make you as a. A whole in terms of psychologically and physiologically, that these are your, These are all of your specialities, man. You know, and, and, and that's how I sort of feel. I feel like you bolt on discipline to all of your quirks. You know, I'm sure I'm on some end of the spectrum. I'm sure I've got adhd, you know, I'm sure I've got a load of these labels. Right? But if you, if you bolt on discipline to that and you get the mind under control, then all of a sudden the hyper focus in ADHD just becomes a superpower, you know? And so, so that's, that's my thinking. And I think that, like, when I see people that become, like, they feel helpless, because I think society encourages that helplessness because then you're dependent on a drug or a, A certain chocolate bar or whatever it is they can sell you. You know, I think you're in trouble when you become dependent and you don't understand that, like, actually, like, I'm enough. I can be whoever I want.
- [85:04]
A
I looked at this really interesting study about bariatric surgery and gastric bands. Okay, so less popular now that Ozempic exists because we've got a pharmacological replacement.
- [85:15]
B
Yeah.
- [85:15]
A
But when people who are overweight and want to stop eating so much, they get a gastric band fitted. Now there is an Increased suicide risk after people have the surgery.
- [85:25]
B
Why?
- [85:26]
A
It's a very serious surgery. A lot of the time there can be complications. It's a big open wound that can get infected. There can be general complications. People can struggle with just the pain and the recovery. But the big underlying psychological reason typically is. In the past, people had an issue that they were coping with through food. They now no longer have the ability to eat the food, and the issue persists. So the coping mechanism has been taken away from them.
- [86:01]
B
Yeah.
- [86:02]
A
And the problem that they were coping with has not. So their ability to sedate themselves with food, to hide from whatever that challenge was, has gone away and the problem's still there.
- [86:13]
B
So, again, functionality, that's a dysfunction, and you really got to be ironing them out. And by the way, I'm saying this from a position of being the most dysfunctional man on the planet. You know, I'm saying, like, there's this. These times in my life where I'm sure it was psychosis. These times where it's been depression flipping like I've gone through in my songs. You hear me talk about borderline personality disorder. And that's because I'm googling away and I'm looking at all of the, you know, explanations.
- [86:43]
A
Got that? Yeah.
- [86:44]
B
That I'm experiencing. That I'm experiencing, you know, and if you're not careful and you start taking them labels seriously, you, you know, we. We've all got everything to some different extent. But what are you going to do? Are you going to accept the fact, you know, you. There's. There's a point where you just have to stop accepting the fact that you lose control of your emotions, get it under control, build discipline, like these waist, you know, and that's what I sort of had to study and figure out. And actually, when you actually break it down, it's all quite. It's all the basics. It's doing the fundamentals well. Once you start doing the fundamentals well, things just sort of drop into play. You just have to do that on repeat. Really.
- [87:34]
A
What are the fundamentals to you?
- [87:36]
B
I think diet's a big one. Gut healthy. Again, you hear people talking about it. Problem is with people talking about things like that is then people turn up to capitalize on it being a popular category and people want to sell crap. I was going to make. Not to deviate, I'll get back to in a second, my fundamentals, but, like, I was going to make a protein brand with a guy, and what I sort of figured out is he wanted to make Like a, like a prime type drink. What I was interested in is making something more beneficial in terms of people's health. Just because when you've got a job that involves exposure, when you say to someone, buy this thing, they're trusting that you've done the research and this is going to help their life, right? So at that point I feel.
- [88:31]
A
Guilty.
- [88:31]
B
If I'm selling somebody something that's not helpful. So I had to pull out on the business venture anyway. So one of them is diet. It's a big deal. Training, it's not. It's more the mind. Exercising the mind. You know, I'm the body. I just think that, like, as we all know, it's one of the biggest deals expanding your understanding. I think if you're naive to history and like what's going on in the world before you was here, you just. And you. And you just existing in this day and age blind and not knowing that, like the patterns of history, the, the cycles, sorry, you know, things reoccur. So, yeah, in that respect, study, you really got stood it. And when I say protect your energy again, I don't, I don't think, I don't think everybody's got the best intention for you. You should probably understand that. You should probably, probably try and pick people with the correct sort of morals and integrity. And sometimes it's that people don't have control of themselves. Do you know what I mean? They give in to their impulses.
- [89:58]
A
It's a challenge as well. Successful guy, attractive woman, Successful woman, attractive guy. You warp reality around you and it makes it harder for people to treat you normally, even if they're trying. I see this with Joe Rogan in Austin. He has this comedy club, super popular. And sometimes after the show they'll kick everybody out and then all of the comedians and their friends will go to the bar downstairs. Mitzis. And there is. It's almost like someone flicks a switch and a frequency comes on that changes the whole room's behavior if he walks in or if he leaves. Because it's this very specific niche where somebody just changes the dynamic. And the people that know him well and are his friends typically don't change that much. This frequency only affects the people who don't yet know him. And they're like, I'm trying to be normal. It's like a really any guy trying to talk to an unbelievably hot girl, like, she's so hot. Just stop thinking that she's so hot. Why can't you just say something not like you're in your own head about it. And it's kind of the same in that regard. And that was my point. I think around fame bringing more freedom or being more of a cage, that it makes you an object to be looked at. It gives people difficulty in treating you in the way that they might even want to. And then you've got to work out, is this person honest and awkward or contrived and conniving? Are they trying to get something and extract something from me? These and the. You mentioned before about shame. I think the shame of dealing with a problem which only comes as a byproduct of. Now, privilege is a real challenge because who's gonna give you sympathy for that?
- [91:57]
B
No.
- [91:58]
A
Oh, I'm so sorry that your fame is causing the amount of attention where you need to discern between people who are simply nervous, conniving, and actually good friends. Like, what a challenge. I'm so sorry that you need to deal with that. And that causes you shame because you think, I shouldn't feel discomfort at this problem because there are much bigger problems, and I have had much bigger problems in the past. What would previous me think of me thinking of this as a problem? You go, well, as you move up through the grades of whatever art you're trying to do, the challenges become more refined. And this is a more refined challenge.
- [92:39]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's nuanced. It's not simple no more. And that's why you've got to learn to rely on your. You gotta learn to rely on yourself, man. And really, you know, I'm somebody that believes in God, and I've recently understood that it's not my own strength that I'm relying on, you know, it's the. The strength of. And whether you call people. Some people understand God is the universe, but it's source that. That source of. Of like, love, right? And I've. I found myself relying on that as opposed to my own. I thought I was this cool guy, thought I was strong. But depending on where your belief systems are, you sort of understand these. These. There's something more going on here. And I found that I've been taking strength from. From the source, if that makes sense. And when you was just talking, then I was thinking, I'm making a fragrance, right? I'm doing my second fragrance.
- [93:40]
A
I've got it on. I've got the first one.
- [93:42]
B
I've got the first one, Fortitude. Fortitude means strength. And with the second one, I've called it Intention. I love that one. So when you Talk. When you're talking about before, the. The way people change around Joe Rogan or, you know, you're talking to a hot girl, you know, I remember when, you know, my career exposes me to types of people I've not been exposed to before. Not the type of people that are walking around the estates I was walking around. And it's your intention that defines the way you're going to treat them people. Because if you're talking to a hot woman and your intention is to try and get her in bed, by the end of the night, obviously you're going to be stuttering your words. You trying to negotiate a pretty serious deal. She's trying to say, who's to say you're enough or she's interesting or she's interested, or, you know, if your intention is just the same as having a conversation with the next person at the bar, you know, then all of a sudden it's a more natural interaction because at the end of the day, she's going to like you or not. And you're, you know, you're saying, she's a hot woman. You're gonna like her or not. But I think if you. If you become a man in a certain position and. And you don't feel like you're. You. You. You don't have options, so to speak, then you're gonna look into who she actually is. Because a lot of hot women aren't what they look like. It looks like a great.
- [95:16]
A
Pretty on the outside.
- [95:17]
B
Yeah. It looks like a great person with. That can bring great things into a person's life. And I think some of them may neglect their other attributes. You know, it's dangerous.
- [95:31]
A
It's dangerous for anybody who has an outsized capacity anywhere. Because Paul Graham's got this wonderful quote where he says a lot of people look at those who are successful jerks and assume the reason they're successful is because they're a jerk. But that's not true. The reason they're a jerk, the reason that they are a jerk is because their success allows them to get away with it.
- [95:54]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [95:55]
A
And it's the same as not being a very nice person or somebody that's rich and an asshole or a girl who's hot and has no loyalty isn't very kind. Their richness or their hotness is what permits them to get away with it. That's not why they have achieved the things they've achieved.
- [96:12]
B
Well, it's like. It's like being a boxer that's got a big punch right Very powerful and he leans on that attribute and he wins the area title and if he's lucky, he gets the European title. But to be a world champion and to compete at world level, like, you need to have rounded off your skill set. It's as simple as that. So, you know, I meet a really pretty girl and she's relied on that up until this point. Now I'm speaking to her. It's just so uninteresting because it smells of that. That's what it is, you know where. And like you say you become successful, you get some money and, or fame or whatever it is. If you've sort of leaned on that and just you're identified with that and that's who you are now. And you've not gone and studied and you've not tried to heal and you've not tried to. It just becomes a very unimpressive interaction.
- [97:02]
A
You know, I'm not interesting, I'm not regulated, I'm not kind, I'm not self aware. I'm not giving. You mentioned that story of the guys who tried to rob your house.
- [97:15]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [97:16]
A
Can we talk about that?
- [97:17]
B
If you like.
- [97:18]
A
I do want to, yes. What happened?
- [97:23]
B
I mean, look, there was. There were some like, teenagers. I've just moved into this house, made a big thing online. I'm getting a new house because this is the game, right? This is the rap game. You're gonna get to a place where you're doing well and people want to know if it's true or not. Did you. Have you really transcended the bottom? Is that really possible? Because that, it's like in the Batman film, right? And there's that, that prison. And to get out the prison, you've got to escape and, and jump out of the hole at the top. And that's crabs in a bucket. We're all looking at the top of the bucket thinking, can we get out? And once you're in the process, it's interesting really, because you got to fake it till you make it right? So you sort of demonstrating that, like, here's where I'm at, you know, some people are less honest about it. I was trying to be sort of accurate. So like, it's like, I bought this house and I've not really built up the walls on the outside or there's no blinds up at the time. And there's like a group of like teenagers up on the wall and they're shouting, me boxy, Bugsy, Bugsy. And I'm flipping thinking, whatever. And then my, my girlfriend at the time gets out of the shower and he's walking through the house naked. And they're looking in through the window. She's like, the kids outside have seen me naked, right? And I'm like, yeah, just give them time to go. Because I'm thinking I've not move to then start like going out and just even chatting to the kids, you know what I mean? Like, I'm gonna try not to get too involved at where I live, right? So time goes by and time goes by and then eventually they just come a situation where I'd sort of left the house, thought the coast was clear, left the house. On this particular day, I was trying to get my little sister to make friends with my mum. And so we're doing a bit of domestic healing or whatever you call it, and I go and collect my little sister. I've not seen her in a long time. And I'm gonna take her to town first. On the way to town and at this point now the kids are trying to like terrorize the house. My ex girlfriend phones me up on the wall again and it's all going on. So then I drive back to the park, the house and the park. I pull up and I see the kids and they see the car and they just want to see it's me. I get the situation. I get. I'm a famous guy, I live in the area. So then as I like pull up, they start to jog off through the park looking. And whoever they must have been in the area, their brothers and family were tough guys. And they've come back and broke into the house, broke onto the land, smashed the windows, tell him when he gets back, he's dead. So that was the, that was the situation. I'm with my little sister in the car and we had to. We had to fly home. I drove home nervous because you, you don't like. You're just in a situation where you're not sure. And by the way, there was a few little things happening around the house of like it was a big house. And you don't understand the ramifications of living in a big house, but it attracts a lot of attention, you know, and that, to be honest, has put me off like them kinds of luxuries because people see you as something different. So now I'm like doing a lot of traveling and opening my mind and being in places with just a backpack, you know, to go back to basics anyway. So the, the. Yeah, so the they I went back, I was nervous.
- [101:20]
A
You're driving back to deal with this.
- [101:22]
B
Issue, yeah, I'm flying back, flying back. My mum's on the phone to the police in the background. When my ex girlfriend's screaming on the phone and my heart's just beating, I'm just like, oh, my days. Because you don't. I'm saying to my ex girlfriend, do they have balaclavas on? Do they have gloves on? Do they have weapons? I don't know. And anyway, and they're breaking in, right? And yeah, I sort of. I sort of pull up and you're straight into the chaos of the situation. And I think, luckily, at that point, again, I've just kept up boxing for so long that as I was getting into these interactions with these guys, I was able to gauge distance enough to make one move and then threat nullified. What's happening next? Do you understand what I'm saying? And that was that. I mean, these deeper detail. I don't know how much I should go into, but they sort of barricaded the road off. It's like a country road that takes you to the house. And me and my sister are in the car. It's been the first altercation. We get into the car, we're driving down this country road, it's barricaded off with big boulders like that. So I know there's an ambush coming. So I look in the bush and there's a big guy with a brick. So I put my sister's head down like that. And really what he should have done is he should have just thrown that brick straight through the car, created panic and attacked me. But what he'd done is he tried to play Mr. Intimidating and tried to have me a fight with this brick. But what he doesn't understand is. What I understood is you have to jab me with that brick because if you start swinging at me, it's gonna end up knocked out of your hand. It's the nature of a heavy, you know, weapon of whatever description. So he stood there, I put my hands up in the air, and psychology says that if I say to you, what T shirt's that again? Exactly? Your brain starts to answer the question. Like your nervous system starts to answer the question before you get a chance to think. So I jump out of the car and I've gone, no way is it you? Is that blue T shirt off you? And I'm asking him these questions and you can see his brain doing, oh, but I'm closing the distance and I'm sparring every day, and I know how close I need to get. And he won't think I can touch him, but I can. And I'm getting closer and closer and he's not getting the time to get his feet in place to swing the brick properly. And when by the time he realizing I'm close enough and he tries to do something with the brick, I've managed to hit him and it just. It just skimmed him and he spun around and dropped the brick. So then it all goes to court. Obviously, he doesn't try and press charges because me and him had a decent fight. You know, to be fair to him, we had a decent fight, but I won the fight and. And then I'd get in the car, I move the bricks, boulders, I get back to my house, and that's the video that surfaces online of me flying down the drive.
- [104:28]
A
Taking your top off.
- [104:29]
B
Well, the reason I'm taking my top off is because a van then comes screeching onto the path of their backup. So now there's a van full of guys to come and back them guys up. So I'm taking my top off because I'm going now to get back involved again. And honestly, like, when I. When I turned up for the second time, like, I just turned up and was just shouting my head off like a lunatic frothing at the mouth. And I was just like, what? I was explaining to them, he's like, you're. You're in my family home, my mum's in there, you know, you guys have turned up to beat me up. I've turned up. I've turned up here to die for my family. This is two different situations, you know, and you think I'm like a celebrity. I really come from the dark, you know, and you look like a bit of a plumber. You look like you go to the pub on a weekend. It's like, you don't like that. You're at my family home. I ain't got nowhere to run. And it weren't as articulate as that, by the way.
- [105:24]
A
But, you know, that was shouting and screaming.
- [105:26]
B
I was shouting my head off. Yeah, because, you know, I didn't want to hurt anybody else. And it was getting out of hand, you know, because boxing allowed me to be able to deal with it. Clean cut. But if I didn't have boxing, then I'd have got into a fight with the first guy, thrown onto the floor and maybe beaten up outside my own house, you know, so boxing was able to get me through the situation that was that. There was a. After the situation. Then they tried to phone the police, you know, and there was. So there was a court case, and there was this moment in court at this point. The court case was a couple of years later. And at this point, I broke up with my ex girlfriend, and she had to come and give evidence, which was this mad situation for me. And there was just this point where I had to speak to the jurors, you know, that are going to judge her. There's like a panel of people that are going to judge. And, you know, what I'd done? I just. I just told them who I was because I understand that people look at a guy that looks like a tough street guy and he's a rapper, and all these sort of stereotypes go with these. People look at things in categories, right? Because sometimes people are too lazy to understand that everyone's just an individual. So I just spoke to him on a really human level and explained who I am and what my intention was going into that situation. And that was simply to protect my family. And I could have lost my temper and I could have took that over the top. But I feel like I dealt with every situation perfectly. There's many a man that would have pulled out a weapon and it would have been a different story in the news, you know, But I risked. I risked it. I risked having a fair fight, and luckily, by the skin of my teeth. Well, maybe not the skin of my teeth, but I come out on top, you know, and I feel as if I. I was blessed because I was put. My back was up against the wall, you know, So I got not guilty. Do you know what? Do you know? I've never really spoke about with this. Yeah. I'm sat in the room with my lawyers and that, and they're like, right, today's the verdict. You're either gonna get guilty, bro, if I get guilty. As a kid, I was a persistent young offender. I was in lots of trouble all the time. That was something I had to overcome and get out of the habit of being. So I'm thinking it, like, for the criminal record I had when I was young, like, if I get a guilty here, this is looking like jail.
- [108:03]
A
I don't feel like you were back there.
- [108:09]
B
Ah, man. What did it feel like? Because it's all over social media and the paparazzi are coming to my hotel. I'm not signed to a record label. I'm independent, you know, so for the newspapers to be turning up when I fell off my bike, it's in the newspapers. When I got engaged, it's in the newspapers. It's sort of unheard of. I'm independent. I'm not a record labels cash cow. Right, so you're going in past paparazzi every day. It was just a bizarre experience. And on the day when he's like, today you get they're not guilty or the guilty or not guilty. My heart's beating, shit in my pants a little bit. And, and he's like, we've got a prepared statement for if you get not guilty. I said, that's the one I'm interested in because now I'm doing the Law of attraction in my head. I'm like, there's no way I'm getting a guilty today, right? He reads it to me. I said, okay, it's Covid. We're just coming out, we're sort of in Covid. I'm doing a tour. Tour tickets aren't selling because people aren't sure whether to put the money into concerts because they might get pulled inside. Yeah. Do you remember that stage? So I'm, I'm putting a concert on in the most controversial stage, right? I said at the bottom of that statement, just write that Bugsy is going to go away now and concentrate on the, on the ticket sales of his UK tour.
- [109:27]
A
You used your statement as an ad read for the tour.
- [109:30]
B
Listen, it's, it's turning a negative into a positive, right? And in my heart I believed I was righteous. What the judge was going to believe on the day is, you know, who knows, sort of thing. But they did, they judged me fairly and I got this not guilty. And then, and then I was on the stairs, stood there in this pinstripe suit that I got made after John got his suit when he got off his court cases. I quite liked it. It was tailored well. I'm like stood there and I remembered, oh yeah, we've got all the news in front of us. And he goes, and, and Bugsy is going to go away now to concentrate on the sales of his UK tour. And bro, the tickets just sold out. So I'd fell off my bike, I'd come back from the bike accident. I had this big court case from these guys that smashed my house up and I ended up selling out the tour, you know, so it was a triumphant, it was a triumphant moment. It was a negative into a positive.
- [110:27]
A
You know, the number of guys who hear stories like that. Some dudes break into the grounds of my house and I would have had the top off and I would have had it and that would have been me. I think it says an awful lot about what someone does when Their back's up against the wall like that. Because we were talking before about velvet prison silk pajamas. I have a friend who went through a rough time a few years ago, and he was explaining to me, he said, all my life I thought I was a coward. Said, I spend my time around hard men. You know, I like fighting, I like being around operators, special forces people. But all my life I was worried that I was a coward, that I'd never fully tested myself. I'd been tested, I'd done hard things, I'd chase after stuff. It was always kind of on my terms. Yeah, it was always. I was electing to step into whatever the challenge was.
- [111:31]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [111:33]
A
And I wondered, used this line, it's so fucking brilliant. He said, I wondered when my better self was going to stop clearing his throat in the room next door. He said he could just hear him coughing next door, like his better self, his best self. And then he went through a really, really rough situation. He's like, okay, I'm gonna work out whether or not he's gonna stop clearing his throat or he's gonna kick the door down and come in and sure enough, kicked the door down and he was there. I just love that idea. And I wonder how many people never get the blessing of being tested. Folly.
- [112:15]
B
No, here's the thing. I think we do get the blessing of being tested, but I think the tests start small. And I think if you fail on the small tests, you don't even get to the big tests. If the small tests make you depressed, make you think, oh, it's not working, and make you give up on your dreams and you sort of become a victim. It's harder for me. It's easy for them, and you just end up sort of stagnant. Then you don't get to the bigger tests. I think the bigger test came for me in life because the little tests, I was. I was plowing through them, you know, so it's like a boxer in his career or a jujitsu practitioner, you know, he's building up, building up. He gets his blue belt and then he gets to brown. He gets to a black belt. It's that you get to the black belt of challenges. And that's the interesting challenge because they're the. They're the ones that are like make or break, you know, and that's when.
- [113:08]
A
The opponents get harder.
- [113:09]
B
That's when the opponents are also world level, you know, because you do. Like, once you've. Once you've overcome certain challenges, you start to think, I'm Getting pretty good at this. Like, I don't think life can beat me up, you know, and then bike.
- [113:24]
A
Accident, court case, pandemic. No ticket sales, you know, selling albums.
- [113:29]
B
Yeah, yeah. Like real, real. You know, you wake up on the floor in a puddle of blood. It's like there's the moment, but there's the, like there's the transcending the moment. There's the fight. You've got a 12 round fight ahead of you and the people don't talk about the details of that. They just, they'll see someone like me on a screen, they'll be like, oh, he's bounced back. Well, it's like, no, that was every single day for months and months and months on end. And you want to know what the main fight? What I find is, is the ability to believe in yourself and the bigger picture every single day. You can't, you can't take your eye off it. I think the moment you sort of took your eye off it, it's like the momentum slows. If you know you're in a car crash and you break your legs or whatever it is and you think, I'll never be that person I said I was going to be. Now it's like the momentum starts slowing and slowing and slowing and before you know it's at a standstill and you've got to start all over again. So the seven years you've just been climbing for to get to that level of momentum can go. So when I'd fell off my bike, that's what I was fighting against. It's like every day when I woke up I used to crack a joke. Every day when I woke up I was like, oh, I'm achy breaking. I make a big laugh first thing in the morning because I thought it's not changing my morale, it's not putting me in a bad mood, you know. And I just kept. So that's the first trick that I use is laughter. I make a joke out of whatever's bad is going on. And it has to be a funny joke, by the way. Can't be a shit joke because it won't work. And then once you've. And then once you've done that, then it's having in your mind who you are and where it's all gonna go. And again, the new fragrance Intention. These are all the things I'm talking about with intention. You have to have the intention of becoming your higher self or I don't think it will happen.
- [115:22]
A
When it comes to finding inspiration for your art form for rapping. I've heard you say for me to find inspiration, I have to live some life and almost forget about writing lyrics. One of my favorite lines around this is, in order for art to imitate life, you have to live a life that comedians that spend a lot of time on the road, all of their jokes are about airports, hotels, and dinner, because that's all they know.
- [115:46]
B
Okay, okay. Okay.
- [115:49]
A
I'm interested when it comes to creativity and the well that you're able to draw from, how you still try and give yourself enough silence and enough slowness in a very chaotic life with lots of opportunities and the fragrance and the clothing and the shoes and the tour and the shows and attention. How do you continue to create something that is honest and resonates when there are so many distractions and potential avenues that you could go down?
- [116:29]
B
I mean, it's. It's a good question, and I think it's a case of the pursuit of excellence. There comes a point where you have to forget about money and financial gain. There comes a point where you have to forget about accolades and fans and, you know, screaming supporters, and you have to really figure out what you're doing it for. And if you're an artist, you better be in it to make the best work that you can make, because essentially, this is what I'm going to be judged by when it's all said and done. If my life is a book, when it might have been Kevin Hart that I heard say that your life's like a book, what's your book gonna be like? If my life's like a book in the end of it, what's that? How is it actually gonna look? And if I've not dug deep to do my best work, then I don't know how happy I'd be with myself. And in terms of the well that you talk about, I've just figured that you have to absorb in order to radiate. So for me to. For me to create on the next level, I have to. I have to go away and absorb. I have to watch lots of films. I have to study whatever it is I'm interested in studying at that time. Live lots of life, you know, I have to just absorb and forget about being creative. And then all of a sudden, a switch will just flick one day and you go back into creative mode and you've got all of these sort of inspirations and, you know, influences that are being filtered through your outlook on the world, you know, and then you're able to, you know, I'm I'm a storyteller. And that's what's mad, because I'm not. I'm not a rapper, I'm an artist. Rap music has been my way up.
- [118:29]
A
It's one medium.
- [118:30]
B
It's one medium. And at this point in my career, I'm interested in a more credible job description. One that uses my full array of skills. So people look at my, the brand I've built and my business and I can tell that they can't really wrap their mind around what they're looking at because.
- [118:50]
A
Yeah, what is this?
- [118:51]
B
Yeah, I'm a very diverse person. That's just the way it's become. I've been through lots of different things. I've been through lots of hardship, lots of trauma, lots of abuse. You know, I've witnessed areas of life that you only read about in the newspaper. And that's been my reality. And then on the flip side of the coin, I've had the discipline to be a legitimate person, to run a business, to, you know, so you become a really sort of diverse package in one. And it's hard for not even just people, but for you to understand like what category is it that I sort of sit in here and you have to.
- [119:32]
A
That makes people nervous. Not being able to easily categorize someone makes a lot of people nervous.
- [119:38]
B
Yeah.
- [119:38]
A
It's the reason that we have archetypes when there's movies. The hero has big shoulders and the villain wears black and the maiden has big eyes and the nerd wears glasses because, oh, that's a shortcut. I can work out who this is. I don't need to do as much thinking and I can box that up and you don't need to do as much exposition. I need to ask myself. It's not as effortful. Cognitive shortcut. And we in many ways love people who have depth and are interesting and unique. But on the flip side, it's very effortful. It's very effortful thing to. Okay, so it's rap, but it's art. But it's got this sort of self reflective thing and it's growth, but then it's film and then it's like this, oh, impossible.
- [120:31]
B
It's impossible to understand at this stage in the trajectory. Impossible. You know, it's one of them things that consolidates as time goes by. But actually I think it, I think it's new. I think what I am is new. I think people that come from the place where I've come from don't necessarily survive the initial stages of being famous. Coming into lots of money. I think it plateaus, you know. And a lot of rappers, they get shot. They don't even get through the stage of being a rapper. They don't even get to diversify in and because they're too busy with having them same vices that they had in their old life, that worked in their old life. It's like you can't come into the light and have bad vices. It's going to cause you, it's going to cause you problems.
- [121:20]
A
You need to do the work before you get there. You know, look at. This is something when doing the research which involved listening to a lot of freestyle from you, which was good. That first fire in the boot that you did with Charlie sloth over 10 years ago now.
- [121:37]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [121:39]
A
Just. Did you realize at the time this is a moment? This is a real. The door has just been opened a little crack and I can wedge myself in. Was that. Did you sort of feel the gravity of the potential opportunity on the other side of that?
- [121:59]
B
I mean, look, so, so I've been writing this book like, like I say and I talk about this sort of moment and it was a stage where I'd been making music for five years. But in making the music I was trying to make something that was palatable for a record label to sell. So I was trying to make something that, that I deemed as good, generic and universally, commercially. Yeah. So I was softening my stories, right? And then they just come a point where I'm like, I'm exposing myself like with no reward, you know, I've just done five mixtapes and I've invested in them all and no one's listening. I put it on YouTube and a tumbleweed goes by and I'm just like. There just come a point where I thought I have to throw caution to the wind. And I remember in the book what I talk about is the turning point. And the turning point was my mom had been evicted from Berry new road that I talk about in the fire in a booth. She was living in a little flat, a one bedroom flat with her ex partner. It was going wrong and she was stick thin. My mom was about five stone and on the verge of death and I was having these reoccurring nightmares that either my mum or her boyfriend hit one another with an ashtray. I just used to have this nightmare and sometimes my mum would get hit and sometimes she'd hit him and someone would die because the arguments between them was getting that bad. And I'm driving around in this blue Audi, a three that I loved. And I'm a bit of a street guy. I'm in the mix and I'm making music and I've got this dream in my head. I'm going to be a millionaire. I'm going to be a multi millionaire because that'll fix everything. I'll be able to pay for my mum's problems to go away. And I remember seeing my mum and I was sitting in her house and it was a bit like this. It was derelict, there was no carpet on the floors. This was my mum's like reality. And I remember taking her out for a little bit of food. And her boyfriend had let himself back into the house and locked her out. And when we came back, she was locked out and he'd rang the police. And when I understood that the police was coming, I've gone and sat back into the aide because I was a bit of a street guy at the time. Don't judge me. And as I'm sat there, the police come, they pick my mum up and slam her into the floor. And as I sat and watched that, it was a. I've never felt so helpless because what am I gonna do now? I'm gonna jump out and what, start beating up policemen. You just sort of sat there, she's on the floor getting wrestled and her arms twisted up her back like she's a football hooligan. And then I had a little pit bull at the time, Kruger, he was called. He jumps over the fence and he runs over and he's capable, you know, because he grew up with me through my troublesome days. He's very capable. However, his relationship with my mum was different to his with me. I was like one of the boys. My mum was like an authority figure with him. So he like licks her face and she's like, it's okay. At this point, I've got my hand on the door, ready to open the door because if that dog starts attacking police, like, it's gonna be a mess and I'm gonna be the only one that can fix it. And the police were able to usher him. I brought him up well, the police was able to usher him back into the garden. My mum gets wrestled into the back of the police van. I go home from that situation, yeah, shaking. And I'm. And then that's when I wrote a freestyle on a platform called jdz. JDZ Media Spitfire. And it was the first time that I just threw caution to the wind. And I was like, you know what? Like, yo, these songs that, like, I'm trying to be a nice guy. I'm seeing like Ed Sheeran on the television and I'm like, how do I act like I'm employable like him, but it's like I'm not, you know, when I'm. When I'm flipping 9, 10, 11 years old I know of when a man was murdered in my uncle's house I used to stay over at. My uncle was holding his head together until the ambulance got there, shot in his face. These are my realities, you know, and it's hard to sort of get your mind around, you know what I'm saying? So I was attempting to try and be something that I wasn't. And in this liberating moment of it, because I even need to, I even need to start taking making money more, more seriously because my mum's gonna die in this mess. I can tell that's what's gonna happen. I used to wake up in these cold sweats, my mum would die in these mad nightmares and my ex girlfriend was like, what's up? And I'd be sweating. I never used. I didn't have the courage to tell her my mum's died in my dream again, you know, because I knew the violence was getting worse. I've seen my mum got her nose broken, big gash in her arm. She needed stitches down her arm because he'd threw her through a table. You know, things like that are hard to wrap your mind around without going and overreacting. That's another thing I'm proud of myself for, because my stepdad actually died about a year ago and they've called, the lawyers have called me to give me some money that his mum has tried to leave for me. And I was like, I can't, I feel like I can't accept it because I didn't see her in the later stages of my life. I didn't make the effort as a teenager that thought he was a bad boy to go and see her. I sort of forgot the fact that she's shown me so much love or whatever. Anyway, so, you know, he died and I was just proud of myself that like, I didn't take it over the top. I was a boxer, I had a reputation on the streets and he was, he broke my mum's nose and I didn't, I didn't try and take retribution. My strategy was to succeed. I'm gonna succeed and I'm gonna change this situation, you know, So I drove home that night, I'd done that JDZ Media and I just exposed the truth I'm like, here's who I am actually. And actually I can't be bothered smiling because my head's fucked, you know. And I just sort of let it fly. And that was the first video any anyone give a shit about.
- [128:20]
A
Is that your Audi A3 behind with the door open?
- [128:22]
B
Exactly, yes.
- [128:23]
A
Yeah, yeah, I know it.
- [128:24]
B
So that's that. And then off the back of that, that started to do numbers. And then a manager from London messaged me. I think he used to manage Ed Sheeran in the early days. He's like, come over to London. I went over to London. He's like, by the way, we'd have to change your accent. Like you can't let people know you're from Manchester, right? So I'm like bamboozled, you know. And he had this really sort of snobby thing going on where he's like, mate, you're just some guy from Manchester. You want to get in the music industry, it's kind of not going to happen. And he was treating me in that way and I thought I'm not used to authority. I'm in jail when I'm a 16 year old kid. So he's like, the way he's treating me is not going to work. So when the freestyle, I remember posting the freestyle and I was like, tell that guy that used to manage me. It's being boisterous that I'm from Manchester and I'm coming to put money on the map. And that's where it sort of come from was the attitude in London towards someone that's from Manchester. And I knew that attitude one personal to me as an individual. It was like, you're from out of town and I thought I'm gonna break that door down. So that, that at that point sort of became my challenge. So then in the freestyle after that I'm like tell, you know, because Stormzy was signed to a label and he was doing good things in X, Y and Z. And I'm like, tell, tell Charlie Sloth. It's not just Stormzy that can get a reload. It's not just. And I'm just like letting him know like I'm, I'm like a silverback gorilla just like crawling towards the fucking booth. Like let me in if I can get that opportunity. And actually that was the nature of the, the Clash between me and Chipmunk was he. He'd done the firing the booth before me or a couple before me. And I was so passionate about this platform and the opportunity that that was to me that in his one, he was at a different stage in his career. To me he'd made it. He was like a star, right. I was growing up watching him, quite liked his music, right. And. But he sort of got to a stage where he must have been a bit like at a lost stage in his career. So he was like doing. He had points to put across. He was doing a lot of talking in the fire in the booth, which I seen as boring, you understand. Like if he, if he would have gone in and just spat his lyrics, he's a talented lyricist, I would have just liked it. But in him talking and all that, I thought, you've lost that thing. You forgot that it's still an opportunity. Firing the booth. I'd kill for that opportunity. I can't even get it. So by the time I got the opportunity, I was saying, you know, Chipmunk and his A's and B's. I didn't think I'm gonna have a clash with him. That's just me thinking. When I was in a position to get my A's and B's, and I went to school with people that got A's and B's, I was sat in jail. You know, my family are addicts. You know, I don't know what's going to happen to my mom in the end. And you know, I'm sat in solitary confinement as a 16 year old kid. And so there was probably a resentment to people that got the GCSEs because I didn't get to. There was no way it was going.
- [131:19]
A
To happen for me.
- [131:20]
B
Yeah, there was just no way I was, could have made it happen. I couldn't make it happen, you know, so I was, I was just, it was a, it was an observation that like got out of control. Right. But I knew going into that fire in the booth that like, this has to be the turning point for me. If I don't kick this door off now, then I have to take my other life more seriously. And it just wasn't gonna end well, you know, so that, you know, that was, that was that I went in there and I let my soul bleed out into the microphone, man. The frequency of authenticity. And I was nervous in life. I was worried, I was scared, I was angry, I was, I was pissed off. I was, I was six years into making music that no one cared about. Like, you know, I was starving and I'd looked at the guys that had done their best firing the booths. And it's weird because this was the moment that like the law of attraction really kicked in because you think you're doing the law of attraction, right? But it's not until necessity kicks in that you'll pull it off, and you will. Your sort of vibration comes up. So, because it was a real big moment when I'm looking at, you know, rappers like Nines, rappers like Flipping Katie Coke and these sort of pioneers in London that got big numbers on the fire in the booth, I was telling myself, I'm gonna outdo these guys. In fact, I'm gonna have the most viewed fire in the booth of all time. It's just little dreams that you've got in your own head. But that. That's what. That's what happened because of how much I needed it and how much I wanted it, you know, so that was that. That gave me a start. And. And, yeah, here we are.
- [133:09]
A
35 million views on just that one video. Later.
- [133:13]
B
No, no, I mean, so look, if we're looking at British rap music, it's young, but I think things like my career take things forward. I think there's a whole generation of kids that can see a documented journey of me going from the minus to having things in life and being able to pay my mum's bills. And, you know, I don't have a relationship with my family, but I'm able to look after certain people regardless, you know.
- [133:41]
A
Is there a verse or a lyric of yours that still gives you goosebumps when you say it live?
- [133:48]
B
Yeah, there's lots of those. I think when I'd done the tour in Manchester, sold out, the arena, had not been done before in the rap space. And I think I made friends with my mum at the time and brought her over to the situation, the tour. Sorry. And, yeah, in Mem Freeway, I'm saying that these. I told the nurse that there's no way I'm dying on his bed. Fuck that. And it was a moment where, when. When the. When the blood clot had started going through my heart, I went to get a nurse on my crutches. She was very blase about the whole thing because it's just their job, right? Like, people are dying all the time. And I'm like, no, no, no, nurse. Like, I'm. You know, I mean. And she was just looking at me as if to say, like, this is. This is what it's like. Like. And I'm like, no, like, I need the doctor. I'm going to need, like, you know, And. And, yeah, that moment happened. So on tour, yeah, there was a few goosebump moments. There's a few little goosebump moments. Yeah.
- [134:56]
A
Is rap beef genuine? How much of it is just marketing in disguise?
- [135:00]
B
Yeah. I think what was happening at the time, yeah, is that I was. I was coming from being a street guy into an industry that I don't understand. And I'm just trying to bulldoze my way through. It's like, I need some dough.
- [135:13]
A
I need some dough and attention.
- [135:15]
B
I need. Yeah. Because I need my career to take off. I need these songs. I feel like my stories, like, worth listening to. I feel like the music I'm making is interesting, especially compared to what's going on. And so I was trying to just bulldoze my way through and. And in doing so, I was just being. I was just being clumsy and not caring was what it was. Right. And so then when I remember when Chipmunk dissed me back, I was like, I was happy about it. And in a sense I was like. I remember being at my mom's house, actually, and I was like, mum, Chipmunk's made a diss track. And she's like, she's listening to it. She's like, who does he think he's talking to? But I'm like, mum, you don't understand. I'm a hustler. You can't give me numbers. You can't give me numbers because I just know what to do with them. So I just from that. What I think people don't understand is, you know when you watch a boxing match and one fighter, say, Mayweather, he just wins the first seven rounds and then the other fighter is desperately trying to come back and he wins a round and Mayweather's sort of backing off and moving and slipping and being neat because he knows he's won. Like, I was never interested in the back and forth of calling names. I sort of respected Chipmunk as a lyricist. It was like the last thing I wanted to happen. I couldn't be bothered with someone calling me names because I wasn't a rapper, I wasn't a music guy. It's like, I take it personal if people say things about me. So I wasn't playing that game, really. I was strategically making my way up because I had a goal. And with all due respect, I couldn't give a fuck about Chipmunk or any or the industry or. It's like, my mum can't die in this stage that she's going through and I don't give a fuck. I don't care what I have to do to get up. You understand? And that was the nature of me turning up to Tottenham and, you know, I was doing things that my whole heart was on the line. You know, when we was out, people say, oh, you went to Tottenham for half an hour? It's like, no, we wasn't. We was there all night. And it was. It was a serious situation. Tottenham's not a joke place, you know, but, you know, we went there and anything could happen. It was. It was. It was dangerous.
- [137:29]
A
You were turning those things around really quickly as well. I seem to remember you timestamping.
- [137:34]
B
Yeah.
- [137:34]
A
When different. When things were posted, things were responded to.
- [137:39]
B
Yeah. It's like I'm using boxing analogies because that's. It's a thing. I understand. Right. But it's like fighting a dangerous fighter with a big punch sometimes. Sometimes you gotta try and get him out of there early. So I was just firing back quick. That was my strategy for the situation, was just bam, bam and knock him off.
- [137:58]
A
Putting pressure on him to do it quickly.
- [138:00]
B
Just. I was just applying pressure because it was like, if I can. If I can put this to bed. Early doors. Conor McGregor. Aldo. If the fight would have gone on.
- [138:07]
A
More than 13 seconds, more than two.
- [138:11]
B
Minutes, would it have been the same fight when fatigue starts to kick in and everyone's sweating and the punches are less impactful, you know. But Conor got in there and got it done. Early doors. And that's what goes down in history, you know. So I was going in to try and take the win. Early doors. So then the end bit of the situation, that was like, all a little bit confusing. I was just sort of playing chess then because at the end of the day, it's like, I've got a career, like, I've got numbers enough to build like a future. At that point, I'm not interested in calling names. I like Chipmunk. I think he's a nice guy. Who cares?
- [138:49]
A
It doesn't work in a diss track, though.
- [138:50]
B
Like who? Like, who care? Yeah. Like, you call me names and we're gonna do like, whatever, but who cares? I don't care. These real going on. You understand what I'm saying? I had to focus on the real. I was doing three or four festivals a week and I was just banking the cash. And that's why by the time it come to get in the Lambo, I was just focused on building the brand, you understand? And unfortunately, at this day and age is Instagram and exposure. I don't necessarily like it, but when it's a part of your job description, you better get it done?
- [139:21]
A
How much was the solutions that you came up with? How much of them were emergent? I just trust my taste. I trust my ability to make decisions now and to follow principles. And how much of this was a plan? How much of this was, I have goal, I've reverse engineered the direction. Does that make sense? How much are you sort of making decisions as you go? And how much of it is prescriptive and prescribed in advance to help you.
- [139:46]
B
Get through things in terms of sort of that particular situation?
- [139:49]
A
All of that, it seems, in retrospect, life makes a lot of sense and you can string a narrative together. I knew that I needed to do this. The bike crash helped me to get over, but at least in the beginning, these first opportunities, you understood that, okay, this. This feels serious. This feels like it's worth putting my entire heart on the line for. I have nothing else to lose here. I need to do this or I'm going to go in this darker, more difficult direction, because that's the only other one that's available to me.
- [140:17]
B
Yeah.
- [140:20]
A
How much of that were you aware of while it was happening?
- [140:23]
B
So, so, so this book that I'm writing is on unorthodox strategy, because that's what it's been all the way through, because you come from an unorthodox situation, you've got a plan. I believe strategy is at the. Is at the foundation of all victory, no matter what game you're in. And I think if you're just walking into something blind and, like, hoping it goes well, it's like, it's unsustainable and unrealistic because at some point you will come unstuck and it's snakes and ladders. And once you've gone down one of the snakes, you've gone backwards. So for me, I boxed for four years pretty seriously. And what I realized during boxing is at the time, I was emotionally unstable because of what I had going on at home, which would mean some days I'd go in and be the. The sort of biggest amateur prospect in the gym. And some days I'd go in, have a quick cry in the changing room and just get my head punched off all day. So I. I could understand that. Like, I've got a journey to go on in terms of, like, healing and dealing with this sort of family situation I've got going on. So then I decided to step into music because I felt like I had a skill set. Essentially, I'm a storyteller, and I felt like I'm good with language, descriptive language or whatever. But I always just had the bigger picture in mind of where I'm going. So therefore, when opportunities to propel me towards my bigger picture turn up, I take them without hesitation. And that's why I'm faster than a lot of people. Because a lot of people don't have their intentions set clear in the mind. And then when an opportunity does arise, yeah, they're too busy like laughing with the mates about it or they've not even prepared, they've not even tried to become the person that is ready to receive the, the, the situation. Does that make sense?
- [142:14]
A
It's the, it's the old adage of, of you don't have to get ready if you stay ready.
- [142:19]
B
You've got to be him before it happens. So by the time I had limelight and you know, I'm a rapper that's doing the most numbers, I set the record in this and the recording I was, I was, I was him walking into that because in my mind I was already living it every day. I was looking at like, you know, I've, I had nothing to say nice about any of, any of the rappers because I come from boxing. I just seen them all as my opponents. So I'd watch what he was doing. I think he ain't like me. You can't do it like I have done it and you know, he makes a gangster song. I think he's not lived the way I've lived.
- [142:52]
A
When it comes to that self belief, how do you have like what is the evidence if you don't already have proof, if that makes sense. Like you are believing that you can do a thing that you haven't yet done and don't have any reliable evidence you can do yet other than. I think I got this.
- [143:13]
B
Yeah. Again, it's the small things. So when before, when we spoke about the small challenges lead to the big challenges not coming if you don't overcome them. It's overcoming the small challenges that sort of give you the confidence to know that you can do it. So I just started small. Like a driving license. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm going to get my driving license and I'm going to get a car and I'm going to be driving on the road. Simple thing, right? But what people don't take into consideration is if you're in jail when you're 16, you didn't get your GCSes, you still, when you go out into the world into like, you know, official situations, you, you, you feel like you're a, a jungle creature in the zoo, right? You're a wild animal. So, you know, studying for a driving test every night before bed is foreign. Like it's not your remit. So I just started with simple things and believing I can study for six weeks straight, turn up on my test, ace the test and get myself a car. I started with little things like that. And then I take the confidence from that, I put it under my belt and then, and then you start dreaming bigger and bigger. And then eventually I just had the, the minerals to design the bigger picture. In my head I thought if all these little things are working here, it means that I can, I can sort of design my own future. So I just started to picture it. And these big ones like your house, where you're going to live, I explain it as a description box that you got to fill, right? And if you don't fill in a box of, on the description box, you leave it to random chance. Do you know what I mean? So if you, if you leave the house box on thingy, then whatever house you're gonna live in, you've just left that to random selection.
- [145:06]
A
That's intention.
- [145:07]
B
Intention and, but it has to be. You need to be pinpoint accurate. I was walking past a guy in London the other day. He's like, you know, the, the up and coming guys, now they respect me because I've done good or whatever. And he's like, he's like, bro, I'm trying to do well. And I'm like, where are you gonna be in five years? And he just couldn't answer the question. It was a bad answer that he gave me. I said, it's a bad answer. So you need to know, you need to really know. It needs to be in detail. And that's who I was. I knew in detail how I was going to live, you know, what car I was going to drive, you know, what, what, what life I was going to live, how that I'd be functional, I would be my higher self, you know, and it's all just things that, like, I've just spent time designing. So when it does drop into play, I'm like, yeah, I always believed that that's what was gonna happen.
- [145:57]
A
You know, speaking of opportunities, you don't do that many collabs.
- [146:01]
B
No.
- [146:03]
A
Why? Td?
- [146:06]
B
TD is this guy that was sat in his mum's house, in his bedroom, at his computer desk, at the exact same stage where I was when I had five mixtapes that no one gave a shit about. Right? And that's not to say that like, nobody give a. About what he was doing at that time. But I related to his situation, you know, I mean, he's, he's. He's about to transcend and he's from Sheffield. Sheffield, it's the north. And people saying, up to me, king of the north, or whatever. Like, it's that journey of. There was a snobbery in London for anybody outside of London coming into the industry and breaking bread and someone had to kick that door off because that's not fair, right? And, and so for me, TD was a direct representative of the guys of the people I was representing, you know, And I seen. And by. By the way, like, he'd done the work. Do you know what I mean? And he'd. He'd made a beat and he'd like, call me out and enough people get.
- [147:09]
A
His fans to tag the person he wanted to do lyrics over an existing beat.
- [147:17]
B
Beat. Yeah.
- [147:17]
A
In the car he was like, tag Bugsy Malone in the comments or whatever.
- [147:19]
B
So I just respected that work because, you know, by the time I got on firing a booth with Charlie Sloth, I'd done the work to be there. I was five mixtapes in, five years in and however many freestyles. So I deserved my opportunity, you know. So by the time TD had done the work and I heard the beat, I was like, oh, right. And like. And I seen his energy, I just leaned into it because I thought you're the exact type of an individual that, like, I relate to. You've been sat at that desk in your mum's house, in your bedroom for.
- [147:55]
A
Years, on your Fallout 4 blue chair.
- [147:58]
B
This chair thing, and you've been doing the work and you've had them moments where no one believes in you and you're starting to struggle to believe in yourself. So I just relate. So I leaned into it and, and then I'd done the track and then I went to the mum's house, you know what I'm saying? And just like went and had a chat to him and, and, and looked him in his eyes and, and, you know, just had that moment that. That allows him to feel that flipping it. Actually, I'm enough. Do you understand what I'm saying?
- [148:34]
A
Isn't it funny that it comes back to that? You know, we're giving ourselves. I think everybody is trying to find a good enough reason externally to believe that they are enough. Internally, it's like, I just want to know that I'm enough.
- [148:47]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. All of us. That's like the human condition in it. I think that's the thing that we all struggle With. I definitely like, did and do at some point. I think when I get into new territory, I. Yeah, I still suffer with doubting myself. Yeah. And I think that's the challenge of climbing to the next level.
- [149:10]
A
I think it's interesting with authenticity and what it means to remain authentic when that treadmill of fame switches on. Authenticity is an interesting challenge when you're living in a different universe to where you started keeping perspective about what that was, keeping your eye on the ball, not getting distracted from what the main thing is, and then also not. Not trying to continue climbing a mountain that you're already at the top of. I've already done this thing. I don't need to do that thing again.
- [149:40]
B
Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's evolution. I always talk about like crocodiles and they're from the dinosaur days, man. They're like the only creature to have evolved all the way through to like modern day, you know, that level of adapting to the terrain, it's unheard of. The T Rex is gone. They're all gone. And that's how I look at any game in rap music. I'm the one that just kept evolving, evolving, adapting, evolving to the new terrain. It's snowing now or whatever it is, and diversifying. I just think, I think it's a big deal. I think if you don't have the ability to evolve, then it's game over at some point. I think it's that simple.
- [150:35]
A
Dude, I really appreciate you. I think you are a really fantastic role model for the north and a fucking fascinating human. I'm so, so glad that you came through today.
- [150:45]
B
Thank you. I appreciate you having me on. I feel like, yeah, this is a moment in my career that I'm happy about, you know, because I'm on the other side of the camera in a situation that I've been sort of watching and respecting yourself and respecting the types of guests that you get on. So for you to sit, hopefully I've shared something of value and hopefully I've shared something of value.
- [151:15]
A
You absolutely have. Bugs him along, ladies and gentlemen.
- [151:19]
B
Thank you.
- [151:22]
A
If you're wanting to read more, you probably want some good books to read that are going to be easy and enjoyable and not bore you and make you feel despondent at the fact that you can only get through half a page without bowing out. And that is why I made the Modern Wisdom Reading list, a list of 100 of the best books, the most interesting, impactful and entertaining that I've ever found. Fiction and non fiction, real life stories and there's a description about why I like it and there's links to go and buy it. It and it's completely free. You can get it right now by going to ChrisWillX.com books that's ChrisWillX.com books.