#1060 - Rick Glassman - The Case Against Condoms & Fake Friendship

Summary

Modern Wisdom #1060 – Rick Glassman – The Case Against Condoms & Fake Friendship

Host: Chris Williamson
Guest: Rick Glassman
Date: February 16, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features comedian and actor Rick Glassman, exploring themes of authenticity, boundaries in relationships and friendships, neurotic rituals, the role of vulnerability, and what it means to be truly "comfortable" with others. In a signature Modern Wisdom style, Chris Williamson and Rick weave humor, introspection, and personal stories across topics from literal and figurative “condoms” in relationships to the science and social dance of connecting with other humans—whether on stage, on a date, or even in shared spaces with their unique quirks.

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Key Topics & Discussion Breakdown

Opening Vibes and the Language of Comfort [00:00–03:00]

• Cozy Clothing as Social Performance
  The conversation opens with playful banter about “cozy” attire and the tension between dressing for comfort vs. appearance.
  • Rick: "I like to wear things I could sleep in. If you show up someplace wearing something, people feel offended. Let me just find some really cool clothes that I could trick you into thinking is, 'Oh, look at—I could wear this to the big dance—but I could also go home and sleep in it.'" [00:24]
  • Chris: "Mine leans a little bit too sports-wear-y… if you're going out for a dinner in a Lululemon T-shirt…" [00:45]

The ‘Condom’ Analogy: Intimacy, Comfort & Honesty [03:00–05:16]

• Sexual & Friendship Boundaries
  Rick dives into his sensory sensitivities and likens using condoms during sex to not being truly present—extending that metaphor to emotional safety in friendships.
  • Rick: "When you make love or even have sex with a condom, it’s like, I'm having sex with contacts in. So I'm just aware they're there… And that's why I've learned… to never have physically intimate with somebody you don't feel safe explaining to them, 'Hey, I'm not present with you right now.’ I feel that way in friendships as well." [02:35]
  • Chris: "What’s the equivalent in a friendship?" [03:38]
  • Rick: "I guess in friendships, be able to have friendships where you don’t have to wear a condom." [05:16]

Boundaries, Sensitivities, and the Art of ‘Calling the Game’ [05:17–11:02]

• Navigating Personal Boundaries
  A deep dive into sensitivity (hear: OCD traits, codependency, overthinking), Rick describes learning to ask for and honor boundaries—his own and others'.
  • Rick: "The sensitivity is about my comfort… For a very long time, whatever I was thinking or feeling… I just assumed this is what you're thinking and feeling." [06:39]
  • Chris: "So you look forward to boundaries being set in that way. You’re a pro boundary person on the other side." [08:17]
  • Rick: "Yeah… And it wasn't until I was an adult that I realized not everybody likes to say that a lot. Some people will just, 'Hey, could I have…' They didn't want me to take their stuff and they gave me these toys and stuff. And I was like, 'Why wouldn't you tell me no?’” [09:50]

The Social Dance—Authenticity vs. Convention [10:25–14:15]

• Not Playing the Social ‘Game’
  Chris likens social interaction to tennis, discussing discomfort with directness. Rick advocates for stepping out of unspoken conventions to clarify intention.
  • Chris: "Sometimes going, 'Is this happening because of a you preference?...' feels a little sort of discordant…" [10:25]
  • Rick: "I'm just trying to better understand what game we're playing." [10:38]

Vulnerability, Small Talk, Behind-the-Bit [11:18–17:13]

• Admitting Feelings & Fears
  Rick shares his discomfort with small talk and fears around being liked, describing his desire for directness—such as asking someone after a date whether a kiss was genuine.
  • Rick: "My big fear is, what if I go in to kiss somebody and they kiss me back because it’s easier?" [11:54]
  • Chris: "Procedural kiss." [12:25]
  • Rick: "I take things at face value until I realized that I can't. So I'm just skeptical all the time." [12:26]

Self-Awareness & Growth: The Journey from Oblivious to Introspective [16:33–19:18]

• Evolving through Self-Awareness
  Rick recounts becoming self-aware, embracing correction, and choosing friends who are honest and direct.
  • Rick: "I was so much happier thinking everybody loved me than when I realized I'm bothering people. But now… I probably going to annoy people and just… there's only so much that is in my control." [17:13]

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Information vs. Criticism: The Booger-in-the-Nose Rule [21:22–23:21]

• Valuing Feedback
  Rick compares being told you have a booger to seeking friends who will give honest, actionable information, not just criticism.
  • Rick: "When somebody says you have a booger in your nose, you're like, oh, I want to be around this person. I might not be happy that there's a booger, but happier than looking at it later… seeing it’s been there the whole time." [22:22]

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The Friendship 'One-Page': Radical Transparency [23:21–25:17]

• Documenting Your Flaws for Connection
  Rick suggests giving a 'one-page' document to new friends or partners, explaining quirks, flaws, triggers, and value for transparency.
  • Rick: "Here's things that I'm ashamed of, but I don't want to be. I mean, faults that benefit the other person to know… as a name tag, I think would be just a really cool way of meeting people." [24:31]
  • Chris: "Here's your induction day to our friendship or relationship. Please check out section four, the bottom." [24:31]

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Falling in Love with Uniqueness [25:30–27:36]

• Embracing Individual ‘Spiky Bits’
  Chris shares a story illustrating that we fall in love with people’s "non-fungible" uniqueness, suggesting we should celebrate—not hide—our oddities.
  • Chris: "What we fall in love with are all of the ways that people are not like everyone else…if you try and smooth all of those things off, you make yourself into a shape that everybody else can perceive." [26:53]
  • Rick: "Let's not be too proud and think that we shouldn't shave them down… there's an art… between self-love and the want for self-improvement." [27:36]

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Rick's OCD, House Rules, and Blanket Solutions [28:42–30:51]

• Managing Quirks While Including Others
  Rick talks about his practice of requiring guests to sit on blankets due to cleanliness compulsions, but strives for compromise.
  • Rick: "It's a pain in the ass, but it's my choice. But then when people come over my place, I forget to bring a change of clothes. I'm making my thing your burden." [29:02]
  • Chris: "That’s a house condom." [29:24]

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House 'Condoms,' Fart 'Condoms,' and the Comedy of Boundaries [32:57–58:03]

• Boundaries, Hygiene, & the Logic of Rituals
  The conversation becomes delightfully absurd as Rick and Chris riff on fart etiquette, clothing as "fart condoms," and the logic (or lack thereof) behind personal boundaries.
  • Rick: "Pants are fart condoms… I’ve been saying it for weeks." [57:59]
  • Chris: "You were worried about the sweat from gym clothes." [58:53]
  • Rick: "It's not that logical… I’m going to tell you, before you flush, please close the toilet seat." [58:59]

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Humor as Connection, Social Anxiety, and the Role of the Bit [61:30–64:33]

• Comedy as Social Glue
  Rick shares how humor is a tool for connection and diffusing shame, relating stories about handling discomfort through bits and jokes.
  • Rick: "If you can make a bit out of something, it’s easier. I feel this way… if there's an uncomfortable conversation, there’s craft involved to saying things or setting expectations properly." [62:38]
  • Shoutout: "Buttholes have the best comedic timing." [63:54]

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The Value of Self-Improvement & Acceptance [32:57–43:02]

• Balancing Growth and Acceptance
  Discussion on the dangerous extremes of self-love and personal growth, culminating in a balance metaphor (the balance board/skateboard analogy).
  • Chris: "Don’t whip yourself so much that you’re permanently miserable… But also, don’t be so accepting of yourself that you make your pathology somebody else’s burden…" [36:03]
  • Rick: "Self acceptance is a beautiful thing to do for today. Then tomorrow, look at who you were—do you like that?" [38:14]

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Social Rituals, Fake Friendships, and the Need for Clear Communication [44:24–51:52]

• Small Talk as Social Lubricant
  Rick and Chris explore the nuances of obligatory small talk (e.g., "how are you?"), the challenges of sincerity, and why some social rituals are functionally necessary.
  • Chris: "Your set point is, I don't do small talk… The dance most people do in the elevator or with the dog is one that I am having to consciously teach myself… So most people have to do the opposite." [44:39]

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The Compatibility Tests: Farts and The Simpsons [55:16–57:59]

• The Limits of Compatibility
  Rick presents his own unique benchmarks for compatibility in romantic relationships and friendships—shared humor, especially around fart jokes, and liking The Simpsons.
  • Rick: "People that think farting is funny and people who watch The Simpsons, I think are genuinely nice, innocent people… If you don’t think farting is funny, I know we’re not compatible." [55:38]

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Fake Friendship, Boring Friendships, and Reciprocity [83:07–85:50]

• What Makes a Relationship Valuable?
  Rick questions if it’s worthwhile to persist in friendships where value exchange isn’t present and the difference between being “nice” and actually connecting.
  • Rick: "If somebody doesn’t make me laugh or teach me something… then what value are they offering me?" [81:46]
  • Chris: "Life’s too short for boring friendships in that way." [85:27]

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Charisma, Conversation, and “Reverse Charisma” [85:50–94:45]

• Being Interesting vs. Making Others Feel Interesting
  Chris offers an anecdote about the difference between being interesting and making others feel interesting ("reverse charisma").
  • Chris: "Some people are interesting, some people make people feel interesting. It's a difference between being interesting and interested… a much quicker route to connection is to just get really good at asking questions…"
  • Rick: "That awareness of what they maybe think is a shortcoming is your superpower." [88:39]

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The ‘Game’ Analogy: Rules, Social Bravery, and Inclusion [92:17–99:41]

• Should We Call Out the Rules or Play the Game?
  Rick and Chris debate whether openly calling out social rituals is helpful or disruptive to “game flow”—and whether it's an act of bravery or awkwardness. Rick revels in “calling out the game;” Chris sometimes prefers to influence within the understood rules.
  • Chris: "I think what I'm comparing with myself is I tend to try and achieve the same thing that you do, but within the confines of the game… I think I have less bravery socially for calling out that sort of stuff than you do." [91:27]
  • Rick: "I'm just trying to better understand what game we're playing." [93:12]

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The Date Story: Radical Honesty in Practice [110:04–121:58]

• Rick’s Cringeworthy-but-Relatable Dating Experience
  Rick shares a detailed story about planning (and persistently rescheduling) a date, writing—but not sending—a highly self-aware, boundary-setting text, and the awkwardness of following through even when receiving signs he should walk away.
  • Rick (reading his draft message): “I wanted to share something before we meet because if I didn’t, I think I’d end up canceling or showing up in a way that doesn’t feel genuine. I’ve been feeling frustrated…” [116:34]
  • Chris: "I commend you for going through the 90 minute thing. I think my bitterness radar, my pissed-offness, I wouldn't have been able to reach equanimity." [120:57]

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Value in Relationships: Transparency vs. Manipulation [125:30–128:50]

• Defining Intentions
  They wrap up on the idea that what seems transactional is not necessarily negative if motivations are transparent; including others in your intentions is key to authenticity.
  • Rick: "If your motives are undefined to the other person, then that's a bit like… But if you define intention, that’s honest." [125:58]
  • Chris: "It's the assumption that one person needs to coerce or convince the other… and they wouldn’t do it if they had all the information." [126:23]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• About wearing "condoms" emotionally:
  "I guess in friendships, be able to have friendships where you don’t have to wear a condom." – Rick, [05:16]
• On boundaries and feedback:
  "I want to be with people who just say, 'Rick, be quiet.' You know, 'Rick, I don’t like this anymore,' or 'Rick, do more.'" – Rick, [08:17]
• On the beauty of uniqueness:
  "Embrace the bits of you that have little tumors sticking out of them, like the spiky bits and the like little divots and stuff… if you try and smooth all of those things off, I think you make yourself into a shape that like everybody else can perceive." – Chris, [27:36]
• On farting as a compatibility test:
  "I know that we're not compatible. I know it. I know it." – Rick, [56:19]
• On real connection:
  "Who do you feel safest with isn't [a hard question]." – Rick, [54:48]

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Important Timestamps

• Opening, Clothing, Comfort Metaphors: [00:00–03:00]
• Condom Analogy, Intimacy, and Presence: [03:00–05:16]
• Setting and Embracing Boundaries: [05:17–11:02]
• Small Talk & Social Rituals: [44:24–51:52]
• Rick’s Date Story—Radical Honesty in Practice: [110:04–121:58]
• Boredom & What Makes a Friendship Worthwhile: [83:07–85:50]
• Charisma & Reverse Charisma Concepts: [85:50–94:45]

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Closing Thoughts & Takeaways

• Self-acceptance vs. Growth: The episode returns often to the balance between loving oneself (with all quirks) and striving for improvement—ideally through feedback from honest, safe relationships.
• Radical Transparency: Having the courage to call out the social game—whether it’s letting someone know you find small talk transparently transactional, or directly stating your feelings—can be powerful (if sometimes risky).
• Include Others in Your Truth: Delivery matters. Telling someone your real feelings or intentions is best when it also includes them—making your vulnerability an invitation, not a barrier.
• Cozy Vibes: Both host and guest agree: the more you accept and broadcast your own “cozy,” the more connection you are likely to foster.

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For More Rick Glassman

• Podcast: Take Your Shoes Off (noted for its living-room, cozy atmosphere and radical candor)
• Recommended Episodes: Paul Rudd 1.0 and 2.0, David Cornerswet (Superman)
• Tour Dates & Mailing List: punchuplive.com/rickglassman

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Final Words

"As long as we could both be comfortable and, like, show up as we are now, then, like, I don't have to worry about was this good or not." – Rick Glassman, [136:56]

"It feels like I can just—it's like Sunday afternoon for me. And that's, like, very, very nice." – Chris Williamson, [136:28]

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This episode is a masterclass in using humor, directness, and vulnerability to build real, un-condomed connection.

Transcript

[A]

I'm cosplaying with you.

[B]

What do we think?

[A]

How do you rank my.

[B]

I would wear it.

[A]

Nailed it.

[B]

And I was flattered. Cause we don't really know each other. But you said like, are you gonna wear a nice jumper? And I'm like, that's kind of my thing.

[A]

Yeah, of course it is. You seem like a very cozy guy. If I could describe you in a single word based on five minutes of interaction, watching some stuff on the Internet, it would be cozy.

[B]

I like to wear things that I could sleep in. But I also know that sometimes if you show up someplace wearing something, that sometimes you wear something someplace and people feel offended based on what you're wearing. And it's like, okay, so let me just find some really cool clothes that I could trick you into thinking is, oh, look at, I could wear this to the big dance. But also I could go home and sleep in it.

[A]

No, I optimize for comfort as well. Mine leans a little bit too sports weary, which there's not really much that you can do to kind of elevate sport. If you're going out for a dinner or whatever and you're in a like a Lululemon fudgeing T shirt or something, you're a little bit.

[B]

When you wear sports clothes, you're not wearing something to elevate the clothes. You're wearing clothes to elevate the body. And you have a body for it. I've been saying it for weeks, but you have a body that shows the veins so.

[A]

Well, this. I could get away with this. I feel like it's like a cup of cocoa. Like both hands, holding it with both hands. It's very important.

[B]

Another way I think of that is like if this were a rom com in the early 2000s, and you would be beautiful woman, and you would, you would be wearing that, but you would be. It would be like this. Yeah. And I would think you were ugly as. Until you took your glasses.

[A]

I'd have my glasses down here. Oh, you're ugly. Hairs up in a bun. And I'd like pull them like this.

[B]

And go, oh yeah. Then you get a. Can I say boner? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then you get a boner. Then you get a boner.

[A]

Uh huh. I heard you talk about like random erectile dysfunction and the subsequent fall at the sort of the, the negotiation.

[B]

Where did you hear me talk about this?

[A]

You were freestyle rat. Someone who was like on your show.

[B]

Yeah. With Costa Contra.

[A]

Yeah. And you were trying to explain to four surly black men who I didn't think would be that forgiving of a conversation around, like, rapid erectile red. Rapid erectile dysfunction. But they seem to be. They're like, yeah, man, been there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or whatever.

[B]

Well, they. They didn't say they were. They had been there. They said they hadn't. And I don't believe them. But they were accepting of it. One of them grew up watching the Simpsons. I'm not joking. We talked about it.

[A]

He was the one that you resonated with the most.

[B]

I was like, this guy goes soft a lot.

[A]

Can you get into a relationship with me at some point in future? That'd be good.

[B]

The conversation was based around. And I don't want to get. I mean, we can, but this is how we're opening it. But based on comfort. I'm very sensitive to smells and textures and sounds and like, it's not just a look thing. It's really like. The best I could explain it is like, people that wear contacts, even if it's not hurting you, you know, they're there. It's hard to be present if you're feeling things. And when you make love or even have sex with a condom, it's like, I'm having sex with contacts. So I'm just aware. I'm aware they're there. You know what I'm saying? I'm blinking a lot. And that's why I've learned. And I think this is a good practice indirectly, to never have phys be like that, physically intimate with somebody who you don't feel safe explaining to them, hey, I'm not present with you right now. You know what I mean? Maybe we could make out for a little bit. Or we could. Why don't we go get tested so we don't have to wear these? And I feel that way in friendships as well. As a metaphor.

[A]

What's the equivalent in a friendship?

[B]

I like to bust balls. I like when people fight. Like, I like playful banter and repartee. I don't pick up very well on when other people don't like it. And what I have found is. And I don't think this is exclusive to relationships with me. I just think when people. Anything but I'll say play for this example. It's a lot easier to just go with the flow and just drain your battery a little bit than it is to say, hey, I think you're joking. I'm not sure. I don't like playing this way. Could you explain your intention or even if I know your intention, I don't know. Just something about it when you comment on this or that. As much as I don't take it as my responsibility to, like, make sure other people feel safe, like, they could set their own boundaries. I also recognize that some people don't feel comfortable setting their boundaries, at least not yet. So I guess in that analogy of, like, having sex with somebody before you guys feel safe, saying who you are and what. What makes you feel good. So in bits, like, I get stoned, I love weed, and when I am high, I'm in bit mode and I'm hilarious or extremely annoying and I don't know. So I'll go into groups of people and be like, hey, like, are we doing bits?

[A]

Could I.

[B]

Cause if not, I'll get out of here. Because people won't say. And they'll roll your eye. They'll roll their eyes. And then like, later you find out you were annoying people. So I just think it's important to. Yeah, I guess in friendships, be able to have friendships where you don't have to wear a condom. You know what I mean?

[A]

What a wonderful way to summarize it. I know exactly what you mean. I would have guessed, given what I know about you, somewhat obsessive with the ocd, with the paying attention, with the vigilance stuff, with the. I'm sort of aware of my surroundings, what I feel, what I hear.

[B]

You just really rain manned me there.

[A]

Yeah, I know. Yeah.

[B]

More water.

[A]

I would have guessed that that would have graduated or evolved into some sort of codependency. If you're not okay, I'm not okay. If I say something that makes you upset, like, I'm permanently not doing the bits, I'm scared of doing the bits because if the bit makes you. Oh, did they respond slightly badly to that one? I might have hurt their feelings. I would have imagined that that blast radius of some stuff that you pay attention to would have expanded out into. I'm in a group and I'm steaming in. Maybe not if you're high. I guess, like, you've probably walled that off somewhat, your ability to pay attention. But yeah, I would have thought that you would have been. You would have had that trait too, that you would have been over. Over concerned.

[B]

I understand the trait you're talking about. I just don't understand where the. Why. Why?

[A]

Well, if you are hypersensitive to the clothes that you're wearing, the sensations there. It's obvious that your sensitivity is maybe a little higher than other people's might be.

[B]

Oh, I understand. Yeah. So. So not. This is not a Trait that I'm. I'm proud of. It's a trait that I'm aware of and I. I've been working on. But the sensitivity is. Is about my comfort. And I'm very sensitive. Not. Not like I'm in tuned with the universe. It's more about self. And like, if I'm like, it was for a long time, it still is. What I'm about to explain still exists in my mind emotionally. But logically, I know it's not the case and I could parent myself with it, but for a very long time, I wasn't aware of this, which is whatever I was thinking or feeling. I didn't assume necessarily it's right or wrong. I just assumed this is what you're thinking and feeling. I knew what you were thinking, and I was wrong. I didn't think I knew what you were thinking. Like, I knew it. Oh, everybody's uncomfortable. I better do some type of a joke, you know, or everybody is this. And what I realized is I have no idea what other people are thinking. I have no idea how they're feeling. And I still don't believe that a lot of people are even very in touch with what they're thinking or feeling. So the idea of me being like, oh, maybe I'm doing something to this person. The only way I'll feel that way is if I, like, right now, I feel, oh, I'm talking too much. It is what it is. Feel free to interrupt. These are podcasts. But like, so now I'm thinking, oh, maybe I should be quiet. I'm not thinking that you think I'm anything. I'm just like, yeah, I don't. I don't know. I just. That's why I don't like wearing condoms. I want to be with people who just say, rick, be quiet. You know, rick, I don't like this anymore, or, Rick, do more.

[A]

Oh, that's interesting. So you look forward to boundaries being set in that way. You're a pro boundary person on the other side.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How are you with your own boundaries? Great. Okay. That's great.

[B]

Earlier we were. Dean wanted to move my keys in.

[A]

My hat because of you or me.

[B]

What's that?

[A]

Because of you or because of me? Is it moving for that reason or for the other?

[B]

Yes. If it was for me, it'd be like, I'm okay. If it's not, it's like, okay, but I still don't want them out of sight. That's why I put them over here. I also, I've always been that way. And it wasn't until I was an adult that I realized that not everybody likes to say that a lot. Some people will just, hey, could I have, there's a friend that I have, I grew up with and I saw him again this summer and I talked to him about it. I used to sleep at his house a lot and he had all this cool stuff, like these little toys. Nothing like expensive that I can imagine. Just like random little things. Oh, this is a cool bottle. Can I have this? I would ask if I could have it. And he always said yes. And I, I, I didn't even remember. I never really thought about it. There's probably 10 different things I took from his house. And I saw him this past summer and I remember that like, dude, I used to take stuff from your house all the time. He goes, yeah, it was okay. Like I, like he didn't want me to take his stuff and he gave me like these toys and stuff and I was like, oh my God, I feel so bad. Why wouldn't you tell me? No. He goes, well, I don't know, you wanted it. And I didn't really wanna, I was like, oh, what an ugly thing.

[A]

You know, people don't like to call out the game that much. It feels like, I think about it like playing a game of ping pong or tennis or whatever and the ball's going backward and forward between me and you and me and you and me and you. And then someone just goes and hits it sideways and you're like, no, it's supposed to go this way. Like we're supposed to continue to play the game within the confines and the rules of the game and sometimes going, is this thing happening because of a you preference or because you're trying to look after me or why don't you? It feels like it feels a little sort of discordant, right? It's sort of one key out on.

[B]

The chord of discordant. Discordant, not on a chord.

[A]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're like, oh, oh. That wasn't quite in the flow of the game that we were playing because you've stepped out of it and then pointed at the game itself.

[B]

Well, I would argue that the game that we were playing was this and this and the moment you hit it this way, that isn't the game that we're playing. So I'm not breaking the game. I'm just trying to better understand what game we're playing. Right.

[A]

And, but that makes people uncomfortable as you have identified.

[B]

I, I, okay, but then I Guess we'll just play a different game.

[A]

I like the assessment of sort of why are we doing this thing and what is the reason that this particular interaction's go, how are you feeling right now? That's a fucking wonderful question. How are you feeling? Yeah, how are you doing? How are you feeling?

[B]

I would like to take that and raise you a telling somebody how you're feeling. Hey, I'm comfortable. It's just a little cold. Could we. How are you like, I think also because I ask people. I ask people. I mean, I feel this way with dates. I talked about this in my act now, so I don't want to do too much about it, but, like, for the longest time I wouldn't. I have so many fears of going in for a first kiss and they're not even that they're not going to want to kiss me back or that they won't kiss me. My big fear is, what if I go in to kiss somebody and they kiss me back because it's easier.

[A]

Pity.

[B]

Not even pity, just not wanting to be on, maybe. But like, I. I think more realistically it's because I guess maybe I don't see myself as somebody people pity. But, like, it was easier just to go like this. Like, just, I'll kiss him. It's not that.

[A]

What is the motivation that you fear? What would be the ultimate. What's at the core of that?

[B]

It's the same thing of people when people say, how you doing? Good things? How are you? Are you interested and are you good? It's fine. It's just a. It's just a call and response.

[A]

Procedural kiss.

[B]

Yeah. It's like, oh, you know, we went on a couple of dates. You know, it's easier to kiss somebody and then just say, have a good night for some people than it is to be like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I don't want to set a boundary, say how I feel. I take things that I used to take things at face value until I realized that I can't. And now I don't know when I can. So I'm just skeptical all the time. And like, so the only way I feel that I get enough information is to ask so many questions. When we kissed, it wasn't a long kiss. I kind of wanted to kiss you more, but I don't know if you wanted to make out. I'm not asking you to make out with me right now, but, like, if later on if we kiss a little, fine. Like, is it okay if we make out? You know, and some people might be like, what the fuck are you saying to me? You know? Then some people were raised by the Simpsons, and when you're able to ask a lot of questions and that they like that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Then they ask questions. Oh, my God. Thank you for. I was dating a girl who. I hate spoilers. I hate spoiler. If I know I'm gonna see something, I don't even want to see the trailer. And sometimes people give spoilers and they don't realize what they're spoiling. I'm not. I'm not saying anything. I'm just saying at the end, I was a little confused. Well, now I know. You know, the dreidel doesn't stop spinning. Like, what? Don't tell me anything. So we're watching a show that she had already seen the first couple episodes, and she says something that I don't think she realizes. Now, I know something. This is what I do. Okay? I know he's a bad guy now.

[A]

I.

[B]

The stakes weren't that high, but I'm still like, you know, if you're watching a sporting of fuck, you know, something happens, you get upset. Like, are you okay? No, it's fine. I just. They missed the big bucket or whatever the hell. I reacted quite passionately.

[A]

How many dates in was this?

[B]

I mean, we've been dating for over a year. I mean, she knows who I am.

[A]

Okay? Right, right, right.

[B]

No, it wasn't this. It was this. And she was like. She was acting in a way for my benefit, in a way to be like, oh, no, no. You actually don't know that that's what it is, because here's some red herrings, and I don't eat fish. And I mean that literally and metaphorically. So I'm like, no, no, no. You're acting right now. I know that because. And I'm just like, I. To me, it's like we're playing I'm not happy that you scored a bucket on me. But it's still like, I. This is connection for me. I still, like, like. No, no, no, because I noticed this. All right, whatever. We sit down, and maybe a minute goes by, and I just. I don't know what changed. I just know the. I don't consciously recognize why it changed. I just know notice the energy changed. And I asked if you're like, what happened? And she said that I hurt her feelings. And I immediately started, like, literally crying. I don't just mean I felt bad. I mean, tears were coming down my face at the moment. I didn't recognize it. I soon did, but like, and I, I'm so sorry. And I apologized when I realized the reason I was crying wasn't specifically because I hurt her feelings as much as I had no idea that I hurt her feelings. I had no idea, like, I'm an adult, I'm dating this person. I had no idea I hurt her feelings, which just made me feel bad about myself. And like, just like sometimes things like that happen and I go back and think about how clueless I was as a kid. And like, I have a bit that I say on stage now where I didn't have friends growing up, but I didn't know that until I turned 30. I just thought everybody was busy all the time. Like, no, people just made excuses and stuff. And like. And also the point, the reason I bring that up is because if I didn't say to her, hey, what just happened? She might not have said, you hurt my feelings. So in the midst of things, if somebody says, hey, I don't like this, I would be like, thank you for telling me. But if you don't tell me that I'm going to keep punching, you know, I'm going to keep like doing what I think we're supposed to be doing. So I like when people ask questions. I like when people tell me how they feel. I sometimes have given myself the responsibility to like ask numerous times how somebody feels like what you said, but I'm still not convinced I'm going to get the answer.

[A]

It feels like you're excavating a little bit to try and find the boundaries of what is and is not acceptable behavior.

[B]

Acceptable for the other person.

[A]

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Is this okay? Was that okay? Is that going to be okay? And is this because in retrospect you realize that there were an infinite number of situations that you would sort of plowed through believing one world and the rest of the world seeing a totally different one.

[B]

Yeah, I came into some self awareness about eight years ago and I learned things about myself and I learned how much I'm missing stuff. For a couple of years thereafter, I was very much that kind of like what you suggested I might be. That's why I was curious why you said that. Is this okay? Am I, Should I not?

[A]

Am.

[B]

I'm sorry, I'm sorry. You know, I'm like using my turning signal when it's a right turn only like I'm just always making sure I'm just joking. You know, I would say stuff like that. And like what I realized was before I was clueless about everyone was feeling and I thought I was, I thought every cause I grew up with very supportive parents and I believed them. I don't know if they were right, but I'm the funniest, I'm the most charming. Everyone loves me. And this wasn't the case at all. And I was so much happier thinking everybody loved me than when I realized I'm bothering people. But now, you know, I graduated into knowing that I bother people. So how do I control that? And what I learned is I, I still couldn't. I still did all of the things I thought I was supposed to do and checking in and I didn't feel anything different other than low, lower self worth. That's not me saying that. Who cares what other people think? I very much care what other people think. The difference is to care and to consider it without necessarily prioritizing it if you disagree. So like if I come, if I hurt your feelings, I can't disagree with that. That's something I want to know. So I could do better. If you say, hey, you know, don't put the hat and the keys there. If I wanted them there for whatever reason, it's a hat that I'm promoting something or whatever, I would consider what you were saying, I disagree with you. And I'd have a, I challenge it and I would go back and forth and ultimately we figure out what we do. So I've kind of hurdled that hump of like I'm annoying everybody and more come out the other end of I probably going to annoy people and just not. I mean there's only so much that is in my control. But my friends in my circle, I don't think it's a coincidence that they're all people who are able to. You're being loud. You know, they could tell me I'm being loud and then I could be like, oh, sorry and I could be quiet, you know.

[A]

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[B]

They're also. It's those. It's not just me picking them. It's the people that are okay with me. So they're also picking me, you know.

[A]

Because anybody that wasn't okay with that wouldn't be able to.

[B]

I'm too much for them or not enough. Yeah, I found that. That valuing the information of you're being too loud or this or whatever, as information, not as. As. As criticism, really is a great cheat to kind of like, surpass the ego of, like, if someone says, I'm being too loud, I don't think, oh, I must be too loud. I'm a loud person. No, I'm not. You know, and then it's like you're debating yourself, but when somebody says you're being loud, what they're saying is for. For their ears. This is an uncomfortable volume. I can't dispute that. That has nothing to do with me. The only thing that has to do with me is what I choose to do. That information. I very, very much seek that. Not just the information, but to surround myself with people who are generous enough to offer it. I think a simple analogy. I've said this on my podcast before, but it's like when somebody says you have a booger in your nose, you're like, oh, I want to be around this person. I might not be happy that there's a bit of booger in my nose, but I'll be happier than looking at it later and seeing that it's been there the whole time, you know?

[A]

No, I like this question of self deception. Are we aware of why we do the things that we do and then we want to understand somebody else because maybe we want to connect with them or we want to be better person ourselves. So you broke up with me. Can you tell me why before you leave on your way, before you get the black bag, can you tell me why you broke up with me? Like, what was it?

[B]

I would prefer if you let me know why before you decided to break up with me.

[A]

That would be preferable. But you know, this is, that's not the scene. The scene is that they've got the black bags out.

[B]

I'm just arguing that this person probably won't be able to tell me why.

[A]

Because they, they would have, I would have known by now maybe, but perhaps they had, they didn't feel like they had the permission to do it. Perhaps they were scared. It was a them thing, not a you thing. How about that?

[B]

Okay, deal. Question for you. I got a little out of like, I, I, I wasn't present with you for like 30 seconds. I heard you, but like, when I moved like this, I was aware. Are we able to. How's our focus? Are we, Is this annoying? If I'm doing here and here, I don't know.

[A]

Okay, you're all right.

[B]

Nice. I love talking about this kind of stuff I love talking about this kind of stuff with somebody who 1. We don't know each other, so you. But like, when it's like somebody that you might be work, like, you know, you're going to be seeing this person a lot and you're going to be dating them, working with them or whatever. And like, hey, let's, could we just talk about how we're wired for just like hours, you know what I'm saying? And then we could forget about it because then when something comes up, it'll be like, oh, this is what I was talking about before. Thank you for letting me know. Or would you mind just almost like marinating in potential shorthand that could come out later. I think it would be really cool to like have a onepage that you continue to get a doctor. You add to it, you take away of all your faults. Not your faults, things that you're admitting necessarily your faults that are like, here's things that I'm ashamed of, but I don't want to be. I mean, faults that benefit the other person to know, you know, like I sometimes don't make space for other people. Cause I interrupt a lot. It doesn't mean I'm not interested in you, but you might sometimes have to check me and say, hey, Rick, I wasn't done yet. You know, certain things like that I think, like as a name tag, I think would be just a really cool way of meeting people.

[A]

Here's. Here's a one page introduction. This is. Yeah, this is your induction day. It's your induction day to our friendship or relationship. Please make sure you really need to check out section four, the bottom. That is kind of crucial. Sometimes people skip over that one and if they do, it usually ends up being an issue down the. No, I think that's great. Yeah. I take criticism about anything personally. Like I get defensive if it feels like I'm being attacked. Even when I'm not being attacked, I go quiet if there's an argument going on. That doesn't mean that I don't want to talk about it. It's just that my response sometimes takes longer to happen or I'm sometimes real fast with my responses. And that doesn't mean that I know what I'm talking about. Sometimes I just want to talk to fill the space so that I don't feel great.

[B]

I'm feeling emotional.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

I mean, you know, like somebody says it and then when that thing happens, you're like, oh, that's that thing. And that's hopefully what happens as you get to know somebody. You don't just get to know the pleasures, you get to know the obstacles.

[A]

Well, we fall in love with that, I think.

[B]

Fall in love with what part?

[A]

We fall in love with both. But what we don't fall in love with are all of the ways that people are like everybody else. We fall. We fall in love with people's uniquenesses. Uh, and that goes on both sides. A perfect example. My friend Georgie's mum, she hates fighting. Does not like physical fighting at all. Doesn't like ufc, doesn't like watching her kid, her boys fight when they were kids. And she was in the car with George's younger brother driving through the UK and she saw two teenage boys sort of squaring up to each other by the side of like a pavement, walking home from school or something. This is. She's in the middle of traffic, stops the car in the Middle of traffic, gets out of the car, runs across the road over traffic to the pavement to be like, no fighting. No. She was like fucking Cillian Murphy. And Peaky blind is no fucking fighting. No fucking fighting. And she's in the middle. And his brother was on the phone to him at the time going, mum has just got out the. We're in the middle of traffic. She stopped the car. This car's behind us, they're beeping. She's in the middle of this fight between these two teenagers telling them to stop. It's like at her funeral, people are not going to say that she was the sort of person who turned up on time or like, you know, made an acceptable plan. They're going to say she was the sort of woman that stopped a car in the middle of traffic to stop a fight between two strangers that she didn't know. Like that's where we fall in love with people also.

[B]

Would have been a good clip.

[A]

Would have been a good clip. But I think we fall in love. Non remember NFTs when everyone was like into NFTs. Non fungible humans is the same. It's okay. What's non fungible about this person? Oh, that's what I fall in love with. Because by design, if you can find it anywhere, like why this person and not the next one or the next one or the next one. This isn't an argument for like be as weird and unique performatively as possible, but embrace the bits of you that have little tumors sticking out of them, like the spiky bits and the like little divots and stuff that are out of this smooth shape. Because if you try and smooth all of those things off, I think you make yourself into a shape that like everybody else can perceive.

[B]

Yeah, I agree. I also think that on the other end of that is some things. Let's not be too proud and think that we shouldn't shave them down. You know, like I think there's a, there's an art. I think there's. Excuse me, I think there's a craft to the. The line. But recognizing and making efficient the line between self love and the want for self improvement. And they' not mutually exclusive, but this idea of hey, this is me, take it or leave it. Yeah, some, once, once you've broken it down to its core and this is what it is. There's only, you know, like there's only. I'm always going to have neuroses but like so I make people. When I go into my home, I take off my Clothes, and I change into my indoor clothes, old clothes, including anything that's been outside and touch something. So if I go walk my dog in my indoor clothes, if I don't lean up against something or sit on a chair, they're still indoor clothes. But even if I just sat in my Depends how wet it is, I'm okay with rain.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It's. It's. It's touching something that I don't know what touched it before. And it's not about germs. It's not that logical. It's just, oh, this is outdoor now. Like, so. So, like, I've had. So that's. It's a pain in the ass, but it's. It's my choice. But then when people come over my.

[A]

Place, I forget to bring a change of clothes.

[B]

Yeah, I'm making my thing your burden. And I'll always have until I don't. But right now, this is an issue. How could I. Well, it. This is who I am. Then don't come over. Versus how could I help this other person not have to cater to me? So there are different ways of doing this. The way that I found is the most efficient, is I just got blankets all over the place for you to sit on. It's obnoxious.

[A]

That's a house condom.

[B]

Yeah, it's a house condom. Yeah, it's a house condom. I would prefer to get to know you well enough to where you could take your clothes off and put on something else. But I'm like an old black woman, but instead of plastic things, it's just blankets. And I'm constantly washing. So I'm dating somebody and they're accepting of this. They come over and they're like, hey, I took a shower and I just changed into brand new clothes. And I'm like, I recognize this. I'm appreciative. More than that, I'm so sorry that you felt you had to do this, but I don't think you understand. You put those clothes on and you sat in your car where you've also sat after you were at the gym in those clothes. Hey, those are outdoor clothes.

[A]

Let's.

[B]

Let's just sit on some blankets. So, like, how I am this thing. I accept this of myself. I don't love it. I'm working on it. But I have accepted this is what it is. If I were to accept what this is and just lean into that entirely, you'd be wearing a hazmat suit every time you came in my house, which then makes it worse and worse. And Worse. So by me letting people into my home in their outdoor clothes and they sit on the blanket. That's. It's a. Then sometimes they sit on like somebody on my podcast, I have blankets for everybody. Somebody will sit off the blanket for a second. It used to be, ah, you know, like, I need a new couch, you know. Now it's like I don't even react that way now. I don't like it, but it's, hey, could you do me a favor? Could you? And they go, oh, I'm so sorry. Like, it's all good. And now I'm not losing my mind.

[A]

That's why it's important to tell them before about the things. Because if that thing comes up and you have to do the explaining and the enforcement at the same time. Oh, well, fucking. What? I wasn't even aware of this. This feels like a lot. I've been pulled over by the police to enforce a law I didn't know existed.

[B]

I actually learned that I have to tell them before, not because of that, but because they. I do a lot of. I'm a silly boy. So they just think I'm making a joke. So it's not that they're.

[A]

No, no, no, no. This one, this is a real one.

[B]

How do you.

[A]

It sounds like the thing I said just before. There wasn't.

[B]

But this one's real.

[A]

This one's real.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. It's the boy who cried wolf. But for comedians.

[B]

Yeah, it's the boy who cried couch.

[A]

Yeah. The boy who cried blanket.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In other news, I've been drinking AG1 every morning for years now. Dude, you tried to fastball me that. That was down the plate and I've just. Shohei Otani did. I've been drinking AG1 for as long as I can remember. It is the best all in one drink that I've ever found. And that's why I'm such a fan of them. And that's why I partnered with them as well. I have got my mum to start taking it, my dad to start taking it, and all of my friends as well. And if I found anything better, I would switch, but I haven't. Why do you keep throwing it at the mic? Stop throwing it at the mic. See? Anyway, over 75 vitamins, minerals and whole food source ingredients. Got probiotics and prebiotics. It's also NSF certified, meaning that even Olympians can use it. And in the throat. In the throat. How dare you. I hit the. I hit the.

[B]

Ah.

[A]

This isn't even an ad read anymore. It's just a war zone. Oh, okay. Okay. Anyway, if you too want something to throw at your friends or a tasty blend of 75 vitamins, minerals, probiotics and whole food sourced ingredients designed to drink first thing in the morning in one scoop, it's here. [e-mail] ModernWisdom for stuff. Thank you. Yeah, you've got this great line. The self love movement is beautiful and necessary, but not at the expense of growth. And I think that that Mr. Research.

[B]

Guy over here, it was on a clip. It wasn't a deep dive.

[A]

I think it's interesting that in my world, where I come from, the insecure, overachiever, hustle, grind set kind of background.

[B]

Insecure overachievers that mean you're overachieving because you're insecure of where you're at.

[A]

Yes. Yeah.

[B]

Well, congrats.

[A]

Thank you. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Now we're now recording at Disneyland.

[A]

Yeah, you can build, you can build big shit as somebody that just desperately wants to be liked by people. But that, that side of the balance board requires more of the self love stuff. It's like, hey dude, let me give you this idea. It's called productivity debt. So every morning you wake up believing that you're already overdrawn with your day's production and only if you absolutely flawlessly nail your entire day's work.

[B]

What does overdrawn mean? Like you have too much to do.

[A]

That there is some sort of cosmic karmic debt that you need to repay in terms of output productively. And only if you do lots and lots of work that day will you claw yourself back up to at best zero. Not one or ten or a hundred, but that you start at minus some number. And whatever that number is is the exact number of as much work as you can do today flawlessly. And if you take too much time off, you realize I finished the day on -2 or -5 or -10 or whatever. That's kind of the side of the world. I think that drawn to some of the stuff that I have talked about in the past, although that's morphing somewhat and has morphed over maybe the last sort of two years. But we've spent a lot of time talking life hacks and self improvement and training and so on and so forth. And that's great. And I loved it. Right. Personal growth has been fucking wonderful for me. But you can sort of go too far on that. You know those balance board things, it's like a skateboard deck and there's sort of a cylinder below it. And you can imagine that you're standing on it and you're always sort of doing this.

[B]

A teeter totter.

[A]

Is that what that's called?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Teeter totter. Thank you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

British.

[B]

That's what you're talking about, right? You're sitting on. And then you. Like if we were on one right now, I would go like this.

[A]

Oh, no, no, no, no. That would be a seesaw. So imagine a skateboard deck and imagine just a. Like a.

[B]

What's the difference between a teeter totter and a seesaw?

[A]

I think it's the same thing. It's just the British.

[B]

No, it's a joke. Oh, no, it sounded like one.

[A]

Damn it.

[B]

So. So I don't know what you're saying.

[A]

Skateboard deck. Yeah. Imagine skateboard deck's like this, okay. And there's a cylinder that's running underneath it. And you were to stand on the skateboard deck. So you would be doing this to balance.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Do you have this visual in your mind? I think, okay, at no point are you actually balanced right. Or you could pick any on a balance beam at no point.

[B]

I know what you're talking about.

[A]

You're always going to be making micro adjustments. Even when you're like, oh, I'm like, really stable.

[B]

I know this isn't necessary because I get it. But what I'm picturing is when I. Because when you twist your ankle and you do rehab, you're on a board with a ball at the bottom and you're just constantly like, if it's too left, you gotta go right and you gotta do this.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay. All right, let's go.

[A]

At no point is your foot completely flat. Even when it's really flat, it's still just making little micro adjustments here and there. And I kind of get the sense that this self love and growth tension thing that we're talking about, well, you know, accept who you are. Don't whip yourself so much that you're permanently miserable or always in a sense of lack or never feel good enough. But also, don't be so accepting of yourself that you make your pathology somebody else's burden, that you are never galvanized sufficiently to actually go and fucking do something with your right. Okay? So on one end you have a victim, and on the other end you have, like, an unrelenting tyrant of the self. And I think that the tension between those two is interesting. And where do you come from? Which culture do you come from? And where are you on the balance board?

[B]

Right Now I think about that often before I go on stage, I'm assuming, you know, but I'm a stand up comedian, so when I go on stage to do comedy and I, I, I don't know if nervous is the best word, but it's, it's, it's, it's, it's the best, it's the best way I could think of to explain the feeling. It's a feeling of nervousness, but it's, it's almost like the, the space between what am I going to do? And I've been doing this many times and I always feel this way. I know it'll be fine, right? And my mom says to me sometimes before a show, at least she used to, now she's, she said, be funny. Just like a thing to say. And I would always I say, and now she, I say, I, I'll try. I mean, maybe, but the only thing that's in my control is to be present. And it sounds corny, but I really say that to myself because if I go in with the responsibility of being funny, what if I'm not? And I very well might not be, and if that's what I need to be, then I might fail. Not that there's a problem with failing, but I don't want to set myself up for this idea of I might be failing when I'm just trying to get in a mindset. If I'm present, I believe that that's the best opportunity I have to be funny. So if I'm not going to be funny today, chances are it's because I wasn't present. And if I was present and not funny, then I wasn't going to be funny anyway.

[A]

Wow, so you found the thing which is further upstream of the outcome that you're actually looking for.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And you're optimizing for that thing.

[B]

And one of the reasons I'm thinking of that is one of the reasons that that one of the ways that helps me do that is, well, you know, it's easy to say to be present as like affirmations. This idea of looking in the mirror and saying, I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and gosh darn it, people love me, whatever. Like if I don't believe that, then the guy that he's not going to believe it. So what can I believe? And what I can believe is this idea of this like, acceptance versus getting yourself better. I know I can be better, I want to be better and I want to try and be better. But I'm about To go on stage in one minute. This is the best I could be right now. So this isn't about being better. This is about fully accepting. This is my. This is my best I have. And then tomorrow I could be like, well, I wasn't prepared. I remember I. A buddy of mine, David Sullivan, who also is an actor, and he coaches me for things as an actor. And I remember years ago, he was helping me for this audition, and I was just like, I didn't learn my lines because I'll just learn them with him. And that's fine sometimes, but, like, the amount of time we had and then we did the audition, and I'm just like, I just didn't know. Like, I just. I'm not present because I'm thinking about my lines and it's not that big of a deal. It wasn't that deep of a thing. It was just. It clocked for me because he goes. He goes, how does that feel? And like, I was like, yeah, I understand. Like, he's parenting me. He goes, just, no, don't. Don't put yourself in a situation to feel that way next time. Now I've been in situations where I didn't prepare enough for an audition or whatever. I'm not saying that, like, it's changed my life, but it offered that perspective of, if there's something that you could do about it, do about it. Do it that way next time, but don't sit in shame. And like, maybe I fucked. I shouldn't. This is what. Where we are right now, do this and recognize if you don't like that feeling, try and change it next time. If you don't mind it, then you won't. So when I go on stage and I'm thinking, like, what am I going to do? It's like the best I could possibly be, which might not be great, is to just remove that thing. Because then, you know, I'm sitting here and you're talking. I'm like, am I in focus? Whether I'm in focus or not, is it my responsibility? Maybe it doesn't matter that much either way, but until I address it, you know. So, yeah, I think that self acceptance is a beautiful thing to do for today. And then tomorrow, look at who you were and do you like that? It's been. It's been a. A very, very intentional journey for me over the past eight years of, like, learning. Is this okay? What this? Is it okay that I'm coming? And this. This is a. Not a real. I'm. I'm making something up Right now, the answer, at least not consciously, but is it okay that I'm coming in here and talking too much, Talking about feelings, not doing bits? Is it. Should I have worn my sunglasses? Because I think I have a sty on my eye that's showing, like, all of these things. Like, I don't want to care about anything. I don't want to care about anything. But then that's too far the other way. So, like, constantly doing this and going like. And ultimately. And this is a. Maybe a corny thing, and it's a Snapple bottle. But, like, I love who I am. I love who I am so much, I might be wrong. I also think I'm so funny. I do. I'm on stage sometimes, and I think I'm so funny. I also know I might be wrong. I don't want to not feel that way, but I don't want to feel like, no, I'm not that funny. But I also don't want to think that you all think this, because then there's nothing to. Nothing to grow from, you know? So this constant thing of, like, I love who I am, or by being received accurately, and if so you don't love me, that's okay. If you're not receiving me accurately. Is there a better way I could have set this up? Is there a one page that I need to give you? What do I need to let you know? To give me the best opportunity for us to enjoy each other. And it's exhausting. And that's where it's like, at a certain point. Did you watch the Simpsons? You know, at a certain point, it's like, your frequency isn't better or worse than mine, but it might be different. And if we're like this, then I'm going to have to meet you here, or you're going to have to meet me here, but if it's close enough, you know, so at a. That's where I'm at in my life now of, like, recognizing if this person's close to my frequency. I think I maybe need to make some adjustments. If they're not close to my frequency.

[A]

What are we doing?

[B]

Yeah, I don't need to learn your amazing vocabulary for a language that I don't even speak, you know? So, like, teach me things. If we're speaking the same language, and if we're not speaking the same language and we're working together, or you're the sister of somebody. I'm in a relationship, like, then you have to do that thing where you dress a certain way and you, you squint and you lean forward and you like, oh, that's so, you know, that's nice. And you, you give a firm handshake and it's just, it's not consciously manipulative. But I do think it's like, I also talk about on stage, this idea of, like, when people say, how you doing? I used to really struggle with it. I would be like, what do you want from me? You know, like, I don't want to tell you. I don't want to talk about that. I don't. We're just walking our dogs. But I've learned it's a call and response. And when someone says, how you doing? They're not asking how you are necessarily. They're just letting you know that they see you for a minute and then you say good things. How are you in therapy? I was like, it was a. It was a. I call it a challenge. Maybe it was homework to, like, just start saying good things. How are you? Even if you feel it's lying, just see how maybe you get used to it. You know, it's like people sitting on a blanket instead of changing their clothes. So I do it and sometimes someone will say, how you doing? And I go, good, thanks. How are you? And they go, good, how are you? And I'm like. I'm like, you started it. You know, this is. This is crazy. I'm right. This is crazy.

[A]

Have you ever seen someone do. Has it ever happened to you where someone said, oh, happy birthday, and you go, oh, yeah, you too?

[B]

It's actually a Brian Regan joke.

[A]

Is it?

[B]

Do you know who that is?

[A]

No.

[B]

Yeah. When someone says something, you go, you too. And you're like, ah, yeah, yeah. That's just that innate feeling of like, I better give them what they gave me.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You do know that you're kind of the inversion of most people's self work, right? That you having to learn not to say what the thing is. It's like, well, to be honest. Okay, so I work up with a star in my eye, and I've got this conversation to do later on today.

[B]

What's the opposite? Good.

[A]

Thanks. How are you? Right, you. It's from what you're saying to me, it sounds like your set point is, I don't do small talk. I struggle intensely with small talk and the social mores. And the typical dance that most people do in the elevator or with the dog is one that I am having to consciously teach myself to do to understand that these are the mannerisms of just like normal human shallow communication. So most people have to do the opposite. They have to detrain that stuff.

[B]

Well, a kid does that. That's. It's like, it's like a child. Like a child, you say please, you know, you have to condition.

[A]

No.

[B]

Yeah, well then we're not gonna, you know, we're not gonna go to the strip club or whatever, you know, like you have to teach kids to do stuff. And there's pros and cons to that. A lot of people say, I love kids because they'll just tell, tell you the truth. I don't believe that telling the truth is an excuse to be unkind. There's definitely tact to that. But like not telling the truth because you're afraid of how somebody might receive you I think is a very selfish act. I think that when people say things like, well, you know, some people will diagnose themselves as a people pleaser and they've allowed themselves to believe because of the term that what they're doing is pleasing the other person. But what I think that they're doing is. That's what you do.

[A]

No, no, no. The. I was you. What you're going to say is they're pleasing themselves, Protecting themselves.

[B]

Yeah. I want to make sure that, that this person doesn't see me in a bad way as opposed to allowing them to see me as I, as I am.

[A]

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[B]

It's making sure that they're okay with.

[A]

You to make sure that they're okay so that you can be okay.

[B]

And I think a great, a great test of that would be, hey, I don't want to tell him that he has a booger in his nose. That's not my job. Maybe the person who does his makeup will. And when the makeup person tells you, I'm not thinking like, oh, no, I'm sorry, I'm thinking, I'm glad they said it. So it's not the information that you're receiving that's going to not please you. It's I'm the one who's delivering it. And again, there's tact to this. Sometimes I don't owe everybody my truth. I don't need to tell you everything. I have found through originally a lack of awareness and then through making jokes that, oh, there are ways of maybe delivering things to where it's more palatable. I don't know how you're going to receive this information. I don't want to make my choice based on how you're going to receive it. I, I want to make my choice based on do I think this is valuable information for this person? And the only guiding star I have for that is, would I want to know that? If I would want to know that. But there goes again where I also want to, hey, I want to leave my hat here. Like, I want to set boundaries so.

[A]

You'Re not representative of everybody else. Would you want to know that? Yes. But if you are as non fungible as it might seem, you're. You can't use your theory of mine to be, well, I would want it therefore. And it's like, yeah, but you're not them and they're not you.

[B]

I think at a certain point with us being imperfect humans, there are just ways of calibrating yourself to like, you could only police so many things. And that's where the acceptance is. I am going to annoy people. I'm going to bother people. I'm not saying fuck them, who cares? I'M saying, I'm trying not to, but I'm only going to put so much attribute points into me recognizing when you're annoyed. Especially when I go up to the conversation and I say, I'm a little high, I'm doing bits. If you don't want to do bits, I'm out of here.

[A]

What you do is the disclaimer bit. That's why the disclaimer bits or the one sheet, I think that's a really, really lovely way to frame it that you do have an obligation to be like, as nice as you can be, but, like, no nicer than, like, you're able to be like, you're not supposed to turn yourself into a pretzel. Desperately trying to be able to, like, make this other person feel at peace. Yeah.

[B]

By default. And then there's. They just got, they just went out, got out of a relationship. They're sad, their parent is sick.

[A]

You know, okay, I'm gonna have to tune this up. I need to invest a little bit more.

[B]

Constantly. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And you're calibrating that way. One thing that makes me think about the dog walking scenario. I lived in New York for a month this summer and I fucking. I thought it was so brilliant. I've never been there before. And there was a, like classic New York dog park on the Upper east side, like East 83rd Street. And it's. When you're talking about the dog walking thing, it just makes me think about that it's like fall, you're sort of walking and there's a strip of 100 yards. It's not big, it's New York 100 yard bit where someone might have a conversation for 90 seconds in that one thing that you do have as part of this sort of mutually aware. I know that you know that we have the time that it can't be the thing.

[B]

I already know what you're saying.

[A]

You need to know that if you open up the fucking chasm of, well, you know, recently actually my sister or like, you say a thing and they're like, so what's going on with you? If you give that. It's like, oh, well, no, let me tell. And you go, I didn't want to lie and just say, good, how are you? But also, I do not have the time to invest, to be able to tumble down this fucking rabbit hole, this Alice in Wonderland cathedral of bullshit down here in order to have the conversation that would be truthful. So sometimes I think the, the social mores are there almost in the same way as like, that is. Or waving somebody across a junction. It's even less information than you think it is.

[B]

What is that with the less information?

[A]

How are you doing? I'm good. How are you? Fine, thanks. That is, it's almost the same as flashing somebody across with your lights in a car.

[B]

When people say, how you doing? And I don't want to talk about it, I say hi back. And sometimes if it's not as in passing, how you doing? I'm in a little bit of a mood. I don't want to get into it, but I'm okay. Like, just letting them know, that's, that's where I've like discovered where I could feel like I'm satisfying your rules while not compromising mine. And by rules I just mean way of life, you know. But yeah, that's, that's the thing. That's, that's the, that's the kissing on a first date. Is it like, are you good? Thanks. How are you? Or are you just not wanting to get into it? Going in for a first kiss is constantly a scary thing. My, my, my reaction to that type of, type of fear isn't the same as it used to be, but that still there's that moment of like, do you want to be doing this? You know, and I feel that way. You know, I recognize it right now. Like, I'm not worried by this, but you and I have made a commitment to talk for 60 to 120 minutes and whether or not you think this is going well, you're going to continue.

[A]

So is he continuing? Because he feels like, yeah, but it's not a worry.

[B]

It's just an awareness of it. So, like, it is what it is and that's what being a professional is.

[A]

The, the emotion from that by knowing.

[B]

That I'll never know the answer to it.

[A]

Well, if you ask you would.

[B]

I. I don't. Whatever you tell me because I don't know you yet. And we're still fucking with condoms. I don't know if you'll be telling me the truth. Are you, are you wanting to, as the host of this show, manage my expectations and feelings to get what you believe is the best out of me.

[A]

Or demoralizing you by saying this is a car crash or this is great.

[B]

Or even assuming that that's demoralizing? Some people might want that.

[A]

Ed, from the call again, like, oh, he told me in a little bit. He was like, yeah, actually, we do need to. Can we shift you to the left a little bit or can we move the fucking hat out or whatever. Oh, he told me something that's. And I suppose this is a, A stress test. It's a little truth test of, oh, is this person prepared to tell me something that might in the wrong hands, be something that makes somebody upset? Two interesting ideas on that. The same friend whose mum stops fight and fights in the middle of the.

[B]

Street, who makes a. Whatever. Flan.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Makes an acceptable flan. He asked me at his 30th birthday last year. He said, who's your best friend in the world? I was like, bit of a weird question after age, like 12. And he said, okay, let me reframe it for you. Who can you sit with in silence without the need to fill it? And who can you speak to with the least amount of filter? I was like, ooh, that's cool. Like, both ends of communication, both silence and talking. Which of those feel the most unencumbered, like the most frictionless, and just sit in fucking silence next to each other on a train, not even reading or using our phones or whatever, and not feel.

[B]

That's a direct analogy to the not having sex with somebody until you feel safe enough to be able to tell them, I have performance anxiety. You know, I mean, that's a, that's a more insecure example of it. But yeah, it's. What you're saying is, who's your best friend? Is a hard thing to answer, but who do you feel safest with isn't. And that's, I mean, I know I've said this as jokes, but that's really. And I don't mean this directly, literally, but like, people who grew up watching the Simpsons. It's not just watching the Simpsons.

[A]

One long ad read for the Simpsons.

[B]

But really, really, I, I, I, I really. There's two things. There's two, like, tests. You don't need to pass either of them, but it's valuable information. It's not just people that watch the Simpsons. It's people that chose to. They like this type of humor. People that think farting is funny and people who watch the Simpsons, I think, are genuinely nice, innocent people.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

When people don't think farting is funny, there may be some trauma. I know that there, there are, I have, I have some, some female friends that have issues with the way that their mom receives them, and they better. They need to be beautiful. They need to be. They need to be a certain thing that the mother believes is what makes a woman. Bummer. Pun not intended. However, when you think it's just gross or whatever, and yeah, of course it's gross. I'm not saying do you think farting is something that you want me to be doing on your face all the time? I'm asking if you think it's funny and if you don't think it's funny. I know that we're not compatible. I know it. I know it.

[A]

You're saying that the tip of the spear of your.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Social Venn diagram crossing over is Simpsons and funny farted.

[B]

You know what? To be a little bit more fair, you don't have to think farting is funny. I want, I've never, I've never been in. And this wasn't a conscious choice. I've never been in a relationship with somebody who didn't laugh at farts. I don't think that's a coincidence. But it's not that you don't think farting is funny as much as if you think farting is gross. Like if we're sitting around and I have to go to the bathroom to fart, I'll get 40,000 steps a day. You know what do you want a.

[A]

Big farter.

[B]

Who isn't?

[A]

Well, I guess it depends what your baseline for big farting is.

[B]

Exactly. And whatever your baseline is, come on over. Just change your clothes and sit on a blanket.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Whatever you fart, if you fart 10 times, how do you feel about.

[A]

How do you feel about farting? Because that's kind of turned inside clothes into outside. It's actually turned inside clothes into in inner you Inside clothes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How's that feel on the couch?

[B]

Yeah, Farting on. If you fart on my couch, how'd that feel? You know, it feels good to fart.

[A]

It does, but how does, how do you and your couch.

[B]

Fine. We're fine. It's farting.

[A]

Hang on. I, I, I do feel like we.

[B]

Need to because farting isn't outdoor clothes. Those are indoor clothes.

[A]

Right. But they are now contaminated with inside of me.

[B]

They're not. Your pants aren't off. If you pulled off your pants and farted, I would say, would you fart on the blanket?

[A]

Right.

[B]

Okay, so this is, it's, it's coughing in a mask. I consider underpants and pants and 94.

[A]

So pants are like fart condoms.

[B]

I've been saying it for weeks.

[A]

Pants are fart condoms.

[B]

Yeah, it's my merch, actually. Imagine. Come on. That's fucking crazy.

[A]

That Oz Perlman, the Mentalist. I knew I was going to go here. I think you need to reassess this. I don't want to contribute to your blanket anxiety.

[B]

Contribute, but go on.

[A]

British just farted.

[B]

Why are you laughing?

[A]

I think you really need to check yourself on this. I think that there are far more microscopic poo particles.

[B]

Oh, I know.

[A]

Getting through pants and jeans onto the blanket and into the couch.

[B]

I have thought about it.

[A]

It's not zero.

[B]

No, it's not. It's inevitable.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They're farting.

[A]

You were worried about the sweat from the gym clothes.

[B]

It's like I said, it's not that logical. It's not about the sweat, but I.

[A]

Just, I want you to try and be consistent.

[B]

Okay. May I? Because you're playfully challenging me and I'm all for it. Before you go into my bathroom, I am going to tell you, before you flush, please close the toilet seat.

[A]

Ooh. Because you don't want it to be atomized. What if it's only P. Close?

[B]

Please just. It's not that big of an ask.

[A]

You could be. You could just fix this with a Japanese toilet.

[B]

I try not to. To have it just. I don't have a Japanese toilet.

[A]

Okay, well, maybe that would be, you know, just to consider for future.

[B]

Also, I was going to make a joke, but I'm realizing I don't even know what a Japanese toilet is.

[A]

Is it one of those heated things to automated. It's got the built in bum spray.

[B]

Oh, yeah. They're amazing with the bidet and stuff.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah, I, I want to get one.

[A]

But, but that would fix this problem.

[B]

No, wouldn't.

[A]

Wait.

[B]

I, I, I've pissed and them I've come.

[A]

They don't close.

[B]

Yeah, they don't close. They close. Some of them close. But you, you, you, you do your thing. You flush. Maybe it's closing as there's flushing. It doesn't.

[A]

You're worried that there's. It's like Indiana Jones sneaking under the door as it comes down. Whoop. He grabs his hat, but instead he's flicked poo particles out. Okay.

[B]

Which also is another. So I'm a. I want to control the poop particles and the pee particles in certain places, but you're controlling it.

[A]

In the room which has the most sterile amount of soft furnishings.

[B]

Here's my logic. If you have to fart, you're gonna fart. You're just going to try and hide it from me?

[A]

What if it's gratuitous? What if you can, you know that they're forcing them out?

[B]

It's probably going to be funnier.

[A]

So you can offset.

[B]

I know that you're going to fart it's not a matter of fart, don't fart. It's just what do it. Let's see it. Let's see it. See it on my podcast.

[A]

Yes, you see it.

[B]

We do a lot of animate. Like, my podcast is one that you have to. You don't have. I watch it. There's.

[A]

I like the Street Fighter selection thing. I enjoyed when you were doing that.

[B]

Oh, thank you. I didn't mean you in particular. I just meant, like, I want it to be digested with the visuals because we do a lot of stuff, including animations. People. When people go like this, even I add a little fart and a little that comes out, and it stays there for a second, like, I'm a little boy. I think it's really fun and funny. Yeah, it doesn't, you know, and it's not that logical. Like, I have a dog. I got a dog for a few reasons. Two of that, that I'll explain that are relevant is, one, I thought it would help with my ocd because my ex girlfriend, I was obsessed with her dog, and when she would bring it over, for whatever reason, the rules didn't apply to him.

[A]

Like, I was okay with outdoor dog, indoor dog.

[B]

We would wipe his paws before he comes in, but we wouldn't wipe his. His butt, his belly. He would lay on the ground like, he's on the stuff. It's okay, because the alternative is him not on the bed with us or.

[A]

Having to bathe him every time he's.

[B]

Come in, which ain't gonna happen. Yep. Yeah. So I realized, wow, this is. This is, you know, immersion therapy in a way. Another reason I got a dog is because. Especially because I work so much on my podcast and I do a lot of editing, and I would go. If I don't have shows, I would go three days without leaving my house. And I didn't get out of the house. I'm like, it's an excuse to get out of the house.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

I'm out of the house a lot more now. I used to. Once you go outside, the outdoor clothes, but then I'm like, I go, I walk. I just won't sit down. I've allowed myself to go outside, maybe even in the rain, and come back in. So, like, I'm getting better by challenging myself and the dog let me do that. Farting is, you know, the dog could be on the blanket. A fart is fine if you're wearing, you know, a condom.

[A]

Right. Okay. So farts are the. The dog of the indoor, outdoor World.

[B]

Also, if it's funny enough, you know what I'm saying? Like, I feel there's. There's a hack to shame and that's finding a bit in it. Right. Like, I'm embarrassed about this thing, but if I could say something funny about it, I don't know, is that because now I feel valuable and I use it as a tool, Is it because I now am being seen in a way that isn't the way that I thought I would be seen? Is it just the connection I have with somebody who could relate to it? Whatever it is, if you can make a bit out of something, it's easier. Right. And I feel this way. I mean, of course, then there's like, oh, you're joking all the time. I'm not saying make everything a joke. What I'm saying is if there's an uncomfortable conversation, there is. There is craft involved into either saying things like setting expectations properly. Hey, there's something that's been on my mind. It's not that deep, but it's something that bothers me. We don't have to talk about it now, but do you have five minutes of space? I could let you know something that I've been feeling a little embarrassed about. It lets the other person make a choice to do that. Sure. And that's a great tool. Another one is that's not as exhausting and asking so much of the other person, especially if it doesn't really involve them, is, hey, I have a sty in my eye and I brought sunglasses. And I might want to do this. And is this. You know what? Could we just do glasses? Could we do sunglasses for a little.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

Cool. And now the bit is we're wearing sunglasses. But that made it easier for me to admit to you something that might have been hard to say. Now, that wasn't hard to say, but, like farting. A buddy of mine shout out to Andy Kozell once said, buttholes have the best comedic timing. And I think that's so funny and true. You ever hear a fart and you think, like, I didn't think that was a good time for that. And if so, it's the best time for that. Oh, I was gonna say we're not compatible, but yes, I see. If you don't think that that fart was funny, you might be a redneck. Do you have that over there?

[A]

No.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

No, we have. What do we have in the uk? We have chavs, don't we?

[B]

You might be a Chad.

[A]

Chav. Chav.

[B]

I don't Know Chav, I know Chad.

[A]

Chav. So the only equivalent we have of kind of hick. So imagine Gypsy without the caravan.

[B]

You're not supposed to say gypsy or hick. Just so you know.

[A]

You just did.

[B]

I did it.

[A]

Redneck. Really? Is hick allowed?

[B]

I mean, you'll see the comments.

[A]

What? Look, I'm. I'm like somebody who hasn't had whatever reckoning around culture, and I think it's okay.

[B]

I was just. I'm fine.

[A]

I'm insulated because of the British accent. Hopefully until I get cancelled. I was on Tucker Carlson this week. I'm like, fucking. I survived that. That's okay.

[B]

Has it come out yet?

[A]

Yep. Monday, it was the day that like all hell broke loose and the entire Internet decided to point the sights at Tucker, Candice and Nick Fuentes all at the same time. And I was like. I just had a conversation about, like, well, I think men should be doing maybe, and how they're struggling a bit in school and work and stuff. And there was this huge crossfire and I had to do this. There were all the fucking bullets flying over the top of my head.

[B]

Is that a concern for you or is it just something you noticed?

[A]

Just something I noticed. I mean, I was on set all day. I had two wonderful. Monday was fucking brilliant. Had Trevor Wallace in. I think it's great. It was the first time I got to meet him. It was so much fun. And we went for like two and a bit hours. And then I had Huberman for like three and a half hours. And we got to chat before and chat after. I was like, that's great, I'm fucking sweet. And you come out and you go, oh, oh, I'll deal with that later. Like whatever the fucking. But it was fine. I would tell you a story about John Ballian. Do you know who that is?

[B]

The name sounds familiar, but no.

[A]

Musician, recording artist, producer. Behind Justin Bieber and Rihanna. Like Ed Sheeran. Gazillion plays like billions and billions and billions of plays. I had him on the show in New York. He told me this story about his son. It made me think when you were talking like, this is why kids are great, because kids don't have the filter. And I think some of the things that I'm like hearing and feeling from our conversation today is a. Is this balance between growth and self acceptance, between being true to yourself and helping somebody, like being kind, like being nice to somebody, which doesn't always mean necessarily telling them what they want to hear. Kids kind of sit interestingly, like skewed off to one side where they do very much tell the truth, but can also like. And the innocence allows them to get away with more, which is interesting because I wonder whether if we all of us spoke more like kids.

[B]

I think there's something about. It's a projection of the innocence and the intention. I. I have misophonia. And when people are chewing, it sounds. Sounds. It drives me. Sound of eating when a dog is doing it for some reason, not only am I okay with it, I love it. And I don't know, don't you?

[A]

You like them licking buttholes as well.

[B]

He was licking his penis in the Sound of It. That was a Christian Bell episode. Did you see? He was licking his penis. And there's something about that sound where it's just cute to me. When a human licks his penis. I just, you know, why am I watching this?

[A]

Why is Marilyn Manson in my bedroom?

[B]

Isn't that funny? I've talked about that recently too. That fake rumor that everyone thought he took out a rib so he could blow himself. Everybody around the fucking world knew that.

[A]

I haven't thought about that for a decade. I'm so glad that we're on this. We're tapped into the astral realm.

[B]

And that was pre Covid.

[A]

That was pre Covid. Yeah. Imagine how much fun you would have had. A quick aside, you've probably heard about pfas, the forever chemicals that are in your nonstick pans and food packaging and drinking water and probably your testicles. Studies say they might be linked to hormone disruption, infertility and even cancer. In fact, 97% of Americans have detectable levels of PFAS in their blood right now and probably their testicles. Good news. Function just introduced PFAS testing as an add on for members on top of the over 100 biomarkers that they already track twice a year. Hormones, heart levels, nutrient levels. They now look at the microplastics in your testicles. It's a way to go even deeper into your health, giving you the option to see if these forever chemicals are quietly accumulating at harmful levels in your testicles. Normally, getting this level of insight would cost thousands of dollars. With private clinics with function, it's just 499 bucks a year. And everything is reviewed by a physician with clear, actionable steps to improve your health. Right now, you can get another 100 bucks off, bringing it down to $399. Get the exact same blood panels that I get, and save $100 by going to the link in the description Below or heading to functionhealth.com modernwisdom that's functionhealth.com modernwisdom to save your testicles. So John does this show. He does two stadium shows in Long Island. He doesn't tour for five or six years, comes back, writes this album and has dedicated his life to his family now whilst also still doing the producer thing. But he's not been front facing and people come over to his house so that he has his limited time away from his family and his kids whilst also living his dream and doing his things. So he's curated his life around his family. He decides to do two stadium shows. I think it's on back to back nights. He only rehearses for three days so that he spends as little time away from his kids as possible. You know, his new album is Father Figure. So it's all about being a good dad. And he had this amazing dad and he does the show and he's done it. It's like 15 minutes drive from his house and he's brought his kids there and his son's there maybe like five, something like that. And he's got a little playpen out the back with his toys. And he's thinking to himself, I've, you know, I haven't toured for ages, I haven't put the shows and I've dedicated so much time like my family's gonna be there, my friends are gonna be there. I'm like all this stuff, super excited. And he finishes up the show after having done this and he goes to go and see his son and he says, so what do you think of the show? He went, I didn't like it. Why? Well, he sang the first song and then he just kept singing. He's kept on singing more and more songs and I thought, when's dad gonna be done so he'll come play with me. You're like, that's someone just saying what they fucking want.

[B]

But also they. The kid thinks that the show is bad because he didn't get his dad playing with him. He was giving the wrong critique. He wasn't critiquing the show, he was critiquing that he was doing a show. I don't like this kid. I don't like this kid. Now Huberman I saw at the airport recently and he saw my dog and he was playing with my dog a bit.

[A]

Oh, you have emotional support credentials for your dog?

[B]

I don't want it. That's none of your business. But I have my dog.

[A]

I want to know how are you smuggling it?

[B]

I'm doing it all the right ways.

[A]

Okay, this sounds like an area for investigation.

[B]

So I have the dog, and Huberman is. Likes dogs, and he's playing, and my dog is. It's. He's insane. It's insane. He's perfect.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And he's right, and blah, blah, blah, blah. And I had this feeling of, like, not that I'm somebody who he needs know who I am, but I did think, like, if you knew who I was, you would probably want to do my podcast. And I was. And I didn't say anything to him. The same.

[A]

Didn't pitch him.

[B]

No.

[A]

Didn't use the dog as, like, a thirst trap.

[B]

No.

[A]

To try.

[B]

And he came over to me, but I didn't. I didn't ask him to come on my podcast. The same reason why I wouldn't ask a woman who I just met for the first time at the gym to go on a date. It's not right.

[A]

How do you think about tact? You're in the city and the world, the industry of networking, business stuff.

[B]

I'm all for asking. I mean, I think we have the same agent. I mean, I could just ask my agent to forward an email, then say, hey, we met at the airport. Like, maybe I'll do that. I haven't. Is that what you're asking? Like, I'm all for asking people for things.

[A]

Yeah. Just. Again, we've talked about kind of the emotional dynamic of this, like, within the emotional world, but there's also the professional world. And I think about that we're a little.

[B]

It's an uncomfortable feeling, I feel, because I. I do. I book myself, and I do. So I feel like there's producer Rick, and then there's, like, comedian Rick, and producer Rick feels like it's high school, and I'm following up with people that I don't want to. Not that I don't want to, but I. I'm. I don't want to bother you. So, like, asking Huberman to be on my podcast at the airport when he's liking my dog, it would be like me going in for a first kiss before I have enough data. It's like, what if he's. What if he says yes? And he just feels like, oh, I don't know. And, like, do you. Do you want to be here? Like, this idea. I. Men, you know, women. Women are scared a lot. Like, women go through life in a different way traditionally than men of just like. Like, the analogy I think of is, like, I went into a coffee shop and there was this big dog, and he wasn't even showing his teeth. It was just like a. This dog could do some damage. And the person that was holding the leash was talking to somebody else and not really paying attention. And to get in, I had to go around this dog. I wasn't necessarily afraid of the dog, but I was looking at the dog the entire time. And I really thought to myself, I think this is how women feel around men. And I say this because, like, wait, hold on, Huberman. I'm trying to think of the analogy. I'm now forgetting what I'm saying, and I don't want to because I feel like I want to talk about this. Why am I saying that women are afraid anyway? I just think we need to do better. And I think that musician needs to tell his son, like, you know, shape.

[A]

Up, you know, I think he was saying asking too much. The fear of following up. Producer Rick. Comedian Rick.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

Let's move on.

[B]

You know what? We're gonna move on because I learned that's what you're supposed to do.

[A]

You can just enjoy.

[B]

Oh, but I loved it. I loved what I was thinking. Yeah, you would have freaked if you heard it.

[A]

Hate when that happens. How do you respond to caffeine?

[B]

I stopped drinking coffee two years ago.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because it gets me sometimes too high. But that's not why I stopped. It was because it. 1 out of 20, I would get anxious and I started taking this. I'm sure this is fantastic. I've heard nothing but the best from Nutonic. Oh, wow. It has L. Theanine as well.

[A]

Twice as much as a sleep supplement. So it might be. Anyway, I. Let's not roll the dice on one in 20 young.

[B]

But I. I take a drink called Magic Mind. You know about that?

[A]

I did the little green.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Shot that's got caffeine in it.

[B]

Yeah. So it's a per. For whatever reason, it's the right amount for me. What made you ask about caffeine?

[A]

Just. I was like, oh, maybe you need a little. Just a little tickle.

[B]

A little more, a little less.

[A]

I don't have. You had any.

[B]

I took one before this.

[A]

Ah, that might be it. Well, I don't know. It's weird when you lose your train of thought like that because you go, the solution is either too much or too little caffeine. And I don't know which one it is.

[B]

I think I just got into my body, just the empathy I have for how difficult it is for women in this world to have to not Only show up as themselves, but to have 20% of their brain making sure that they, they. They could stay alive. Meanwhile, guys are just walking around getting their cock sucked and drinking caffeine like it's a, you know, on a Thursday.

[A]

Well, it depends who you are, I suppose. Yeah, I think there is a. There is definitely an asymmetry. It's interesting that.

[B]

So I didn't want to approach Huberman like a woman.

[A]

Well, that might have worked.

[B]

I've been a fan of his. I don't want to call it a fan. I've been. I mean, yes, but I've been listening before. Not even listening, like, reading his stuff. My. My ex, who. Who lives in London. I spent a lot of time in London. Love being in London. She turned me on to Huberman, I think, in 2019. And there was, like, so many things that are now. Just like, I just used to go out in the sunlight in the mornings. Like, I know that's like a big trope at this point, but, like, because of that, there were so many things. Learning about histamines and. And nightshades and there's so many things. And I'm just like, this is a guy that has now gotten really successful for. For having an audience appreciate his. His knowledge. So, like, I really like this guy. You know what I'm saying? So it's like seeing a girl that you really like where it's like, I don't want to just. I don't know. I feel like it's not appropriate here. I'm not saying I'm right.

[A]

There's a nice amount of reverence there. You're like, oh, I'm gonna treat this one properly. I mean, you know this. And for the girls out there, I would wager fewer relationships start if you have sex on the first date than if you have sex on the fourth date or the tenth date or something like that. That giving it up too quickly and sort of being too fast too soon is indicative of how much you care about the relationship overall.

[B]

Do you think that's a direct. Like, that's a literal statistic? I would be, because I agree, but sometimes, no.

[A]

Like, I. I just get the sense that there's a few dynamics at play here. First, one, biological. We tend to value things that are difficult to get more. Secondly, the time from meeting to getting physically intimate with somebody is usually, if you wait longer, what it suggests is that is not all that you are here for. Just those two. We don't even need to go deeper than that. That's enough to carry this dynamic through. I think it would probably appear in data.

[B]

Yeah. My last three relationships were hoped them.

[A]

On the first day.

[B]

No. Well, yeah, but there's. There is, there's more information which is we. It was long distance and we were FaceTiming for months. Okay, so. Okay, so the first time we smelt each other and actually we're in the same room.

[A]

But you've spoken for 50 hours at.

[B]

This point, and I've learned that I like, like, I. Even if it's local, like we're in town, I'm not scared to go on a date. But let's say you and I don't know if we want a podcast with each other. We could find out by doing a podcast or we could FaceTime for a little bit and see if, like we're, you know, if you think farting's funny and if we could go get tested.

[A]

That is. That is one of the interesting things about having conversations with people, especially because you don't. If you bin the episode. Especially something like this where, you know, we've got the fucking cars and the team and all the rest of it. It's a big. Tends to be a big deal if you're like, oh, that was so bad. But there is no practicing in private. There's no, oh, we'll. We'll go through the moves yesterday for podcasting.

[B]

Yeah, I think there is. There's a reason that you wanted to have me on the podcast. Not that you still agree with that reason or that you don't, but, like, you got information. That's what's different about me.

[A]

That's research. But you're right. You are right.

[B]

But you can't do. I mean, especially for somebody that does.

[A]

Person based on their Instagram. How's this dynamic between us going to go?

[B]

It's all data collection. I really believe that dating for the first, first X period of dates is less about showing a person who you are and them showing who you are, and more about which I don't agree. I don't like this. But it's more about like showing up in a certain way that you're supposed to and they'll do the same and then over time, that degrades into who you actually are. But you can't show up as you actually are on a first date because they're going to be like, oh, he farts on a first date. What is he going to do on the second date? I'm gonna fart again.

[A]

How much, how much deeper does this descend? No, no, no. This is as Deep as it goes.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Unfortunately for you.

[B]

So. So FaceTiming, I think, and it's not specific to FaceTime, it could be like, if, you know, we're not making a commitment to each other and you're on, you know, you're with a group of other people and, like, you're getting to see a little dynamic without feeling the pressure of needing to wear a certain outfit and ask how many brothers and sisters you have and, like, get to know the person. I think FaceTiming, because you could also always just hang up.

[A]

Safety thing is a big deal on that. If you're talking about, oh, well, some part of this is. I mean, I know for a fact girls will say to their friends, this is where we're going. This is the time. This is the place. Like, you've got my location. If I don't text you by this time, then maybe give me a ring, whatever. Because that safety piece is a big part of. I imagine that there is a way to be made to feel unsafe over FaceTime, but it's significantly more safe. Right?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it's also. When you say safety, it's not just physical safety. There's also just, like, your own, you know, your social battery and your sense of comfort and, like, depending on the person. If you're not enjoying it, do you just, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or do you say things like, I've learned so much about how to communicate with people by editing my podcast. And when I watch myself, I used to, when I would get bored in a conversation, not that the other person's boring, not that I was meaning to judge them, but I would just be honest saying, hey, I'm a little bored with this. And like, we talk about something different. Some people, it seemed like they received it well. Some people may be like, oh. And that became the topic of conversation. Then we would talk about communication, whatever.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I would watch myself. And as I'm watching from the audience, I would see, I'm not bored what this person is talking about on. On the monitor, but I was bored in the room.

[A]

Do you think's going on there?

[B]

I think that was going on there was. I wasn't interested or I missed something, and I was wondering if I was in focus or not. And I. I just, like, I'm not connected. Right. And I mistook not being connected to by meaning I'm not interested. So instead of saying, I'm not interested in this topic and, like, I would watch myself and be, like, frustrated, not.

[A]

Just of how could have enjoyed this in person, yes.

[B]

Well, no, maybe, but not specifically that. It was. I was frustrated. One that I showed up as somebody who shut somebody down. Not meaning to, but I did. But also, like, I want to hear what they said. And now we never got to it. Like, me as the audience wanted to hear more about that. So in moments where I feel that way now, I don't think to myself, this is boring. I think if it is, we could take it out later. I think to myself, I'm not connected. How could I get connected to this person? Could you say that differently? I don't know what you just said. We say that again. I wasn't listening, whatever it is. But like, yeah, I don't know. Sometimes. Sometimes being bored doesn't mean that they're boring. However, if they are, I gotta get out of there as quick as I can. You know what I'm saying? Like, this is. This is gonna sound how it. How it may. If somebody doesn't make me laugh or teach me something or feed me or make me come, and I don't mean me, I mean a human being, I believe, then what value are they offering me? Now? I'm not to say if you make me come and that's all you do, that this is a. This is a healthy relationship. But I mean this quite literally. If you don't feed somebody, give them, you know, if you're not their boss and they pay you, if there isn't some value that you're offering me, am I just supposed to be a good guy and just be like, no, it's okay, he's a nice guy.

[A]

I want to listen, say, about a friend of yours who's in a hospital bed and need looking after.

[B]

I don't understand the connection that they're.

[A]

Unable to really offer you anything.

[B]

I don't mean every interaction has to be valuable to me. That. I mean, I would argue that. That by being able to show up for somebody in a selfish way makes you feel valuable. You know, it's this idea of, like, when you give to charity, are you doing it because. Makes you feel good because you're helping them? Absolutely both. I'm glad it makes me feel good or they wouldn't get this help. So I don't mean everything. I need to be constantly entertained or, you know, constantly validated by something. I just mean in a relationship as a whole, like, do you have any friends that you were friends with as a kid and they're kind of grandfathered in and like, you love this person and you hang out with this person but whenever you're with them, it's just. This is boring. I'm still friends with this person because I love this person and I care about this person. I'm not excited to be around them, and I'm not. I'm not. It's just a little boring. So, like. But when you're just meeting somebody and after three dates or three friendships. I don't know, man. I just, like, he doesn't get my jokes. I don't. He doesn't make me laugh. That. That's okay if he's interesting. Your podcast isn't the funniest podcast I've ever seen, and it's one of the few that I watch. And I love your clips. I mean, you. Whoever picks your clips, you know what you guys are doing. But, like, I'm interested in what you have to say. I'm. Am I learning? Probably. Is it just.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Even if it's something I disagree with and it challenges my mind, it's like, I don't know. It's something. It's worth listening to me. So this idea of going out with people or being friends with people that, like, are boring and. And I'm not saying that you're a boring person. I'm saying that I'm bored by you.

[A]

You know our frequency compatibility.

[B]

Yeah, our frequency. And I. The opposite is I probably annoy the shit out of you. And you're not wrong. But why are we just. Well, they're nice. And why don't you give it a try? So dating is that way, too. So I think that when you have a FaceTime with somebody. Not that. Believe me, I do not need to have a FaceTime. I've backwards learned that, like. Oh, that. That was interesting. I. By the time I was on my third FaceTime with this person, which is potentially only 45 minutes of conversations total, which is less than one date. I got. I'm so excited to meet you. And if I wasn't, I don't want to waste. Waste my time.

[A]

Life's too short for boring friendships in that way.

[B]

Yeah. And boring. I don't. I'm skeptical because I've said this once before, and I saw a comment that that wasn't what I meant, and I believed that they received it this way, which was like, well, some people are boring. Like, not everybody is a comedian or friends with comedians. I don't mean like, you got the best punchlines. I just mean, like, are you talking about things that are interesting to me?

[A]

Well, here's one way to do it. In fact, Let me give you this little essay, which is pretty cool. So Jenny Jerome, who was Mr. And Mrs. Jerome's kid, Winston Churchill's mother, she once dined with both Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli and his rival William Gladstone on consecutive nights. When asked about her impression expressions of the two men, she said, when I left the dining room after sitting next to Gladstone, I thought he was the cleverest man in England. But when I sat next to Disraeli, I left feeling like I was the cleverest woman. Some people are interesting, some people make people feel interesting. It's a difference between being interesting and interested. And this idea I came up with, a reverse charisma. Like most people think that they want their stories to be energizing, their aura to be electric or whatever, but. But what you actually want and what I find myself being around more than even that someone who comes in and is, ha. Like fucking jazz hands is, wow, like, I really feel fucking seen here. And maybe this is part of the connection, maybe it's the frequency thing that you're talking about. But if somebody.

[B]

Why do you feel seen when somebody comes in doing jazz hands?

[A]

No, no, no, no, I don't. My point is somebody that comes in. No, somebody that comes in and has this very electric aura. It maybe is, as you said, less boring out there. Lots of stories, all the rest of it, like whirlwind of. Doesn't leave you feeling seen, but that's fine. And I like being around those people. But that the skill set to be able to be that sort of a person, to have that kind of charisma, for want of a better word, I think is typically quite high. And maybe that was what triggered the person who left that comment saying, well, some people are just boring. Maybe they thought that they are that kind of person. I'm a little bit lower energy, I'm a little bit more thoughtful, I'm a bit more shy, I'm a bit more whatever.

[B]

Thoughtful isn't boring.

[A]

Okay, but if you don't say much, right, let's say you just don't get the words out that quickly or you don't think that quickly when it comes to like telling whatever. If somebody feels that if somebody feels like they might be boring and they're worried that they are, I mean, one thing is to go and have some life experiences and become a little bit more confident with your communication, all the rest of it, and that's great, and you should do that too, but a much quicker route to making people feel comfortable around you and to connecting with People is to just get really good at asking questions and that the bar for that I think is significantly lower. So if you ask the question like how did that make you feel or why or what did you mean by that? Like, as somebody is telling a story, if they're even like remotely compelled by what they're talking about, that is them away for ages now. You as a question asker now have to deal with whether or not that person's interesting to you. And again, this is the compatibility. But if you're someone who thinks like, ah, fuck, like I wish I was more like socially competent or I wish that people. I seem to like people, but I struggle to contribute to the conversation in a way and I'm worried that I don't have much to talk about.

[B]

That right there, that awareness of what they maybe think is a shortcoming is your, is your superpower. So if somebody doesn't know what to say so they just don't say anything, maybe that is boring. And I use the boring as a blanketed statement. I know it's blanket, but. But if you. Hey guys, I'm. You're all so charismatic and I feel like I have no idea what to say. I am so invested now. I'm inch. Like, what do you mean? I didn't even realize this. What are you feeling? I don't know. You guys are doing jokes and I feel like I'm not saying anything. Oh fuck. Should we all be quiet? You know, like, should we put on our sunglasses? We could find a game together.

[A]

It's interesting that you've got. So what you keep doing, the, the strategy that you keep going for is calling out the game. So have you ever read Escaping Flatland? It's a book from like 1850 or so. It sounds niche as fuck, but you might. Yeah, the book from 1850, but it's, it's super famous. It's. It's a, a book about a two.

[B]

Dimensional world and you know so many things. I guess it's your job now.

[A]

I've just spoken to thousands of people and I'm like the end of a thousand person human centipede. So like what I've got left is nutritionally very non dense. But there was lots of it.

[B]

Great, great analogy. So actually my shirt. Sorry I messed up the momentum. Go on.

[A]

The end. This book is about a two dimensional world, Flatland. And a three dimensional sphere comes down to Flatland. And this sphere is a circle. And the circle is able to make itself grow and shrink inside of Flatland. And the citizens are amazed what they don't understand is that this sphere is moving itself through a dimension that they can't see.

[B]

It's not getting bigger or smaller. She's getting closer and further.

[A]

Exactly, exactly what you're doing. At least what it sounds like to me your preference in terms of conversation style is, or what you would like to see more from some people. And your advice is, again, like we said with the game of tennis, is to almost say, well, why are we using the racket? Why can't we use our feet? Or the just net need to be there at all? Or can we leave the stadium like. Or can we hit the. Why don't we hit the ball straight up as opposed to across the net to each other? You're moving on a dimension that is not within the confines of the game. I think what I'm comparing with myself is I tend to try and achieve the same thing that you do, but within the confines of the game. I think I have less bravery socially for calling out that sort of stuff than you do. So what I would do, and this is from a decade and a half of running nightclubs, standing on the front door of nightclubs, like, there is a particular sort of game that needs to be done. You need to do it really, really, really quick. So I need to keep it within this. But like, this person's like too drunk. So I need to come up with a way to play the game, but also get them to realise they're not fucking coming in or to get them downstairs before the doorstaff see so that we can get their five pounds off them even though they are too drunk to come in, or whatever it is that we're doing right as a part of that. What I like and what I find fun as a game is to see whether or not I can get the movement of the conversation for the shy person to feel more included or for the extroverted person to shut the fuck up or for the funny person to be more funny or whatever within the rules of the game. And I think that that's the challenge, maybe because of a insufficient social bravery, to break the rule of the game and go and become the sphere sort of growing and shrinking or just, I don't know, preference or whatever. But I. I'm thinking like, huh, how much do I do what Rick's saying he does here? How much do I like punk the game or call out the game? Like, how much do I say what's going on versus try and get the outcome that he's trying to get, but within the confines of the game. And I think typically I do the latter.

[B]

I want to talk about this for a while.

[A]

Okay. Okay, Dig in.

[B]

First of all, it seems like when.

[A]

Sorry, can I have another water, guys?

[B]

Same, please. It seems like when you are talking about calling out the game versus doing it within the game, as if those are two separate worlds. I don't want to have to go over here. That's not what we're doing. I don't see us talking about which way we hit. The thing is going over here. If you've never played pickleball before and you've played tennis, we could just do it. And then, you know, you, you, you, you don't. You step in the kitchen or whatever. I don't know the rules well enough. And. And I could be like, oh, you stepped in the kitchen. And then you'd be like, oh, you know, so you're out, or whatever the thing is. And then eventually, you know, you'll figure it out. Or you could be like, hold on a second. So let me just really quickly explain to you, this is what we're doing. You might have questions, maybe you don't.

[A]

So I agree. The difference is that socially, the rules are unwritten. In pickleball, the rules are very explicit.

[B]

Where are the. The pickleball rules written?

[A]

There's gotta be a document somehow.

[B]

Have you ever played pickleball?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Have you read the document? No. They're unwritten then.

[A]

That's true. But they're written somewhere.

[B]

They're not. Yes, yes. Somewhere they're written. I'm not. But who. Who's reading them out of all the people.

[A]

I actually need to interject into your interjection here, which is, I have a friend who lives in Austin, Texas, who did precisely that and did read them and broke the game of pickleball so badly that they had to litigate it. His new move out of the sport.

[B]

Of pickleball, it's like adding the three point line.

[A]

He is Indian.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Which says a lot.

[B]

This unwritten rules. I. I have been. I have a document of a lot of things I would want to do. They're more there. There's some. Some. Some of them are chapters. Some of them are examples. Thank you very much, Dean. Are we okay with it down there?

[A]

That's. Dean.

[B]

Oh, hey, Dean. I want to write a book because there's so many things that I never knew are like, you're supposed to do good things. How are you. For example, and I want to do a book called Unwritten rules written. And just this idea of like, oh, here's, you know, here's why. When you go show up to somebody's house, it's nice to bring flowers or a bottle of wine, even if you know they don't want it. And not that you have to do this, but here's what some expectations are, that if you don't do them, at least make that be your choice.

[A]

This is your prep document. But for being a human rather than.

[B]

Dating you for being their human, you know, because being a human is. Is, you know, how much is it based off of my intuition of what I want, what I like, versus what you're telling me I'm supposed to do?

[A]

Can we discuss a list of things I have that is some of the most difficult to do whilst looking dignified?

[B]

Yes. And after that, I want one of us to remember to go back to talk about the game thing.

[A]

Game thing. Picking up a moving ping pong ball. Very difficult to do with dignity. Like, if I throw a ping pong ball over there and I'm like, rick, would you grab that for me, please? And you're like, you sort of tumble after it. You're not an athlete starting a stopped bicycle.

[B]

I get it.

[A]

Turning around.

[B]

Ever eating a little bag of cereal with your hands?

[A]

Yes, yes. Trying to consume soup that's too hot.

[B]

On the opposite end, eating from an ice cream cone that's melting and you.

[A]

Got to move real quick and get around the sides. Yeah, yeah. You're like Bonnie Blue. You're out working how. Working out how to sleep inside of a blanket in a room that is too hot while you're too cold, or while it is too cold while you're too hot. You're like, okay, do I go arms under and just poke my head out like a little mummy, or do I take my arms out and then pull it back down?

[B]

Huh. That's making me think of being in a bedroom, making love to somebody and then going into the bathroom while they're still in bed. If you have a small ass.

[A]

If you have a small ass.

[B]

Yes, I have a small ass. So whenever I walk to a bathroom, I either have to moonwalk back so they see my big rock hard cock, or I have to say, I have a little ass. Don't look at me.

[A]

Why is it still hard?

[B]

Well, it was hard, but still it's. It's. I guess it's not hard.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Which is also, by the way, I used to be very embarrassed. Of course it's embarrassing to be seen naked. I mean, it's a vulnerable Thing. But if I'm going to be intimate with somebody and they see me soft, that's fine. It's going to happen. You. I. If a woman ever sees my penis soft before hard, I am humiliated.

[A]

It's okay to have gone from, like, grower to shower, but not from, like, the soft to hard. It's like, okay, as long as you've seen the Statue of Liberty.

[B]

It's almost as if. It's almost as if I think that she thinks. When she sees my penis soft, she thinks, is that his penis when it's hard? Right. Okay, so.

[A]

So have you ever called that out? Just so you know, darling, this is soft right now. It does get harder than this.

[B]

You told a. I don't remember what it was, but it was a love note from a husband to his wife. And the reveal at the end is, she is no longer with us. Beautiful. I've watched that a couple of times and it makes me cry when I do. He calls her darling. And to hear you say darling in that voice in this context, when that way of darling is associated with. This is what it's like when I'm seeing my flat ass.

[A]

Pavlovian response. Okay. Sidling into a booth at a sports bar. And you have to be the one that's right at the very end.

[B]

That's the one that I connect. Out of all the ones that you said, that's the one that I connect with the most.

[A]

Closing a car door whilst holding two bags of luggage.

[B]

No, that's the fucking coolest. You use your knee or something.

[A]

You got to do that. Like.

[B]

No, that's cool, guys. You don't have to do that. And why are you putting the luggage so high up? Keep it down here and give it a little nudge.

[A]

Okay, all right, fair enough.

[B]

You don't have to go like this.

[A]

Well, you do. You're like. It's like rom com and you've just got back from the date and you're like, ah. And you're like, yeah.

[B]

Drinking from a straw during a fight.

[A]

Fucking dude. Drinking from a straw is so good. Trying to catch a straw. That's like, you've got cup over here. Watching something or talking to somebody and you miss it and you go, see.

[B]

I think that's just fun comedy acting. I think even just going for a straw. My instinct, even when I'm by myself is.

[A]

Like a horse. You look like a horse. You know when it does that thing where it goes like. You've seen that? Yes, you have. Punk in the game again.

[B]

Why don't we just move on?

[A]

Okay. Tell me about the rules of the game.

[B]

Nay. It's over.

[A]

Nay.

[B]

So do you have more, though? Because I.

[A]

What else have I got that's in that? Yeah, you can go.

[B]

The idea of. And if you have any, call them out. But the idea of. Of. Of the rules to the game and setting up. Setting them up. I think that that is. That is literally getting on the same page with somebody. So we could get on the same page by just kind of maneuvering and seeing if we could figure it out. But what's the. In the pro list of pros and cons? What's the con of you saying. Wait, hold on a second. I'm confused with this or. Hold on a second. It seems like you and I are on the same page. We have to. You have to serve it to the opposite end of the court. Like, what. What's. What's the con for not wanting to do that?

[A]

The con for not wanting to. Well, I'd. The con for doing it is easier to make the case of just that. You have to.

[B]

That's what I meant. That's how I met it.

[A]

Yeah. Break the flow of the conversation in order to be able to talk about the conversation. And typically for some people, that feels a little bit uncomfortable.

[B]

Yeah. So you're cannibalizing the momentum.

[A]

Yeah, of course. We're back and forth, and we're back and forth, and we're doing the thing, and it's like, hey, no, stop. And I think my point around, where are the rules of the conversation. Sport written and the fact that they aren't. I think what I'm about talking. The reason that I feel more comfortable, and I feel like most people would feel more comfortable talking about the rules of pickleball than they would the rules of the conversation, in whatever form you think that that exists is legitimacy. Because someone somewhere knows there's a fucking ancient scroll that's got the pickleball rules written on it.

[B]

Well, there's an ancient scroll that says you're supposed to say good things. How are you?

[A]

But is there. No, I don't think there is. Not in the same way, because it's unconstrained. Here's another one. Let me give you this one, which I love as an example. Your capacity at pickleball is not judged as being close to your sense of self. I'm not saying. And for a professional pickleball player or somebody who is an insecure overachiever, maybe you do feel like your performance in pickleball at the Local pickleball league determines your self worth. But most people would say if you made some error in the game of pickleball by stepping into the kitchen, that doesn't mean that you are bad or that. That you are lesser.

[B]

Yeah. And I think what a bummer that if you make an error and you say, oh, he was an Indian guy, by the way. And you're like, oh, maybe I shouldn't have said that. Oh, that you're a bad pickleball player.

[A]

Okay. Like, he's a great pickleball player. He's number two in the world.

[B]

No, I'm saying I'm.

[A]

I'm being.

[B]

I'm being sincere. I'm saying that, like, if you do something bad in pickleball, it's not going to affect your self worth. Traditionally, you're saying where if you, you know, get in a booth and you have to go to the other end or a girl sees your flat little ass, I'm less than. What a bummer.

[A]

Well, that's true. My point is, when we're talking about conversation.

[B]

Sorry, even me addressing it stops the momentum a little.

[A]

But it's funny.

[B]

It wasn't that funny.

[A]

All right, well, I mean, you did it.

[B]

Yeah, but.

[A]

Which side of this debate? Do you want to defend yourself or not?

[B]

Oh, I didn't even realize that's what I was doing. No, I. I'm like, I'm interested in this and. And like, I didn't realize that's what I was doing. I'm like, just noticing, like, oh, like the momentum shift. Okay, this is what he was talking about. And I'm just trying to form an opinion on that just then, but now I'm feeling like I'm stepping on what you're saying. And you called me out in something that I'm a little confused with.

[A]

I was just trying to. Because you said bummer. It's funny. You said bummer, presumably because you thought it was funny. And I'm like, well, you said it presumably because you thought it was. I said, it's funny. You said, no, it's not. I'm like, which one? Okay, you can either say it and believe it or say that it wasn't funny, but you don't get to do both.

[B]

I mean, I guess, were these rules written somewhere? Do you want to talk about it?

[A]

Fuck you. Okay.

[B]

In my mind, the bummer is a throwaway. You familiar with this term over where you're from?

[A]

Tag, Little tag.

[B]

There's a difference and we don't need to get into it.

[A]

Cool.

[B]

Throwaway. Is if you hear it, enjoy it or don't. If you don't hear it, it doesn't. It doesn't. It's. There's no exposition in it. It doesn't matter. It's just something. It's like, oh, yeah, nice car.

[A]

So it's my fault.

[B]

Oh, man, you are an overachiever. So what I'm saying is, when I.

[A]

Need to make your bummer my fault your flat ass is now. Funny that you say that your bummer is my fault. Let me fucking finish this thing. In conversation, your ability to converse, to make the other person feel socially comfortable, to be accepted by the group, you're playing within the confines of the game in a way that is associated with your sense of self worth. And a good example of this to compare the two. When I first started doing the show, I wanted to become a better speaker. So I got a diction coach and an improv. I started doing improv and I did some other bits and pieces. Some of my friends said to me, well, now that you're doing speech training, what about your accent? What about, you know, what if they degrade your northern accent, North British accent? And I was like, well, you know, I'm not going to be able to completely get rid of it. And that's not even my goal. I just want to become better at speaking. But I noticed that they wouldn't have said the same thing if I was a pianist. And I said that I was going to go and get a teacher to teach me to be better at the piano. No one would have said, well, what about your beautiful natural way of playing the piano? And you go, well, there are objectively better and worse ways to play the piano. And by working with a teacher, I can become better. There are objectively better and worse ways to get words to come out of your mouth, be more precise. You can use your consonants to allow things to clip and to sound more effective. Okay, why is it that someone sees the way that you speak as close to your sense of self, but the way that you play the piano as not close to your sense of self in that if you were to work on it and improve it diligently and deliberately, that's good in one scenario and slightly odd and almost like you're warping yourself and changing yourself and to just do one more loop back to the pickup artist thing. I think that was one of the reasons that women have an ick around finding out that men have sort of done dating training because, well, who are you really? If this is you curated and Cultivated and improved because you learn dating or something. Well, how. Where's you? Where are you in there? And there are some things that are close to our sense of self, some things that aren't. Pickleball, I would say, except for a very select few of professionals, is not close to your sense of self, but conversation is. So when you call out the rules of the game, but we're still talking about the game.

[B]

We're not talking about the person.

[A]

That's true. But I think that the person and the game, when it comes to conversing, is merged much more closely than it is in many other pursuits.

[B]

I believe you. I just don't feel it that way. I also don't even connect with what you're saying about speech coaching and piano. I think that I play the piano, and I think there's literally a term of phrasing when you play. And the way that you phrase and the way that you move between chords is your accent, is your uniqueness. Yeah. If you were playing sheet music and you play to the rhythm and you play the notes that they're doing. But there's a reason that this person sounds different than this person. Similar to acting where, you know, some. Some script. I. I did a commercial with Jim Parsons. Do you know Jim Parsons is. He's one of the guys from Big Bang Theory. And we talked a lot because at the time I was on a. I was on a multicam, and he's on a multicam. Multicam is a TV show. There's like single cams and multicam. Multicam is one that's a play, but there's a camera, so there's no fourth wall. There's a live audience usually and traditionally plays. You don't improvise too much because there's so much choreography with the blocking of the camera switching and everything, Right?

[A]

Yep.

[B]

On his show. On Jim's show, that was Chuck Lorre, where he's known for. Not only are you not allowed to improvise, you need to pause when there's a comma. It's very exact.

[A]

Right.

[B]

If you're going to be a great multicam actor for this type of boss, hit your mark, know your words, know your pauses. But then, well, what about what I bring to it? What about my phrasing? You're going to have your phrasing built into it or you'll be a robot. Right. And I feel that way with a piano as well. As much as dictation. I mean, whether it's your accent or it's your charisma, of like, putting things aside and adding your own little twist, whatever it might be. It's, it's. As a comedian, it's called find. I mean, most artists, it's like finding your voice. What's your voice? Do you know who Sebastian Maniscalco is?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

He's one of my favorite comics. I, When I tell people about him, I, I can't. I tell his joke. I can't. I'm not able to do his joke. I know all the words.

[A]

Despite being a comedian and also knowing.

[B]

The joke and, and, and appreciating it like, this is. It's not like I'm saying something that's not funny to me, trying to make it. This is funny. I know all the words. And I do this professionally. I cannot do his thing. I cannot do it. It won't work.

[A]

That's funny.

[B]

It's his phrasing, it's his faces. It's his. Even if I do the same timing anyway, I'm realizing that, like, this, the past, like, 40 minutes has been a little bit of us. I could imagine me, like, contradicting the conversation of what you're saying. Like, I even said, when I said about the piano. I saw you on like this. I just want to acknowledge. Pardon me for saying the rules of the game. I'm having such a good time, and I love conversations like this. I also could imagine it's going all over the place.

[A]

I don't know how you're doing. I'm having a ton of fun as well, because it allows the. It's not meandering, but it's allowing you to go. What is interesting. Which is cool.

[B]

I also think, like, when I watch your, your stuff, I like, I have, I have these thoughts. I like, I don't talk to you, but the things like, oh, fuck, yeah, that's incredible. I don't know what is he. And I'm like, I'm just, I'm just now consciously recognizing. Oh, I'm watching. I'm watching this.

[A]

Yeah. You just happen to be an active participant. No, I, So I, I. To kind of bring it into land or to put a bow on the, the conversation thing. Um, the reason that I liked the inverse charisma idea, which is getting people.

[B]

To believe that they're interesting.

[A]

Yeah. By being good at asking questions. Is that assuming that probably some significant cohort of people that, that is pretty useful to are maybe a bit shy or a little bit more introverted or not super confident. I think that you can go from shy and introverted to being good at asking questions, to maybe being interesting at telling stories. I think that the black belt level of this is doing what you're doing and saying, why don't we call out the game itself? I think the amount of bravery that's needed typically in a social situation to be like, I'm feeling a bit bored at the moment. Anybody else feeling a bit bored? Why can't we, why don't we talk about something else or whatever, Especially one on one with somebody that requires a leapfrog of bravery that I think most people would struggle to get to.

[B]

You're doing reverse charisma right now.

[A]

How so?

[B]

By telling me what I'm doing is black belt and making me feel like I'm good at something. However, I think what other people do is the harder thing. I'm not doing the hard thing because why not? I think not acknowledging the thing is where I'm uncomfortable. And if I wanted to challenge myself and I have done this, I have a story. Maybe I'll even tell you about this if there's time and you're interested. But this just happened and I had a call, call a friend that was like a sponsor for. I was going on a date with this girl and she kept pushing the time back, same day.

[A]

Tell the story.

[B]

Okay, so there's this woman that we've never met, but we follow, we followed each other on social media for years. At any given time, if we're both single, there's maybe some mild flirtation and there's not. So like, we don't know. Know anything other than our projections of what they post.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I go to a city. Being vague on purpose. I go to a city and she, I'm doing shows there and she wants to come to the show. Now I'm only doing two shows and some cities tickets sell well, some not so much. These were sold out. And I happen to have saved a guest list of tickets and I have two tickets saved for her and I don't know what show she wants to go to. So I saved two for both. Both friends wanted to come. People that sell, whatever. It's not that big of a deal. Like, I, I could give these tickets away. If I don't, I don't. Whatever. So she was coming to the first show, but I still saved the second show because who knows what happens the day before the first show. She didn't tell me. I checked in saying, hey, do you, you know, here's the place if you, if you're coming, I'm so sorry, I have to, I'm out of town, I'm working, blah, blah blah. But I want to come to the other show. And then the day before that show, she messaged me, goes, hey, is it possible I get two tickets so I could bring a friend? I said, I already have two tickets for you. My friend who comes with me, who's who, who opens the show, he has some friends in town, he asks if they could have. Is there any way we get tickets? I don't. I only have these two tickets and I'm giving them somebody else. Not that big of a deal, but whatever. I got a text after the show that 15 minutes after I went on, hey, sorry, I can't make it. It happens. It does. It would have been nice if you told me before the show I could have given these tickets away. It's just, it's not necessarily a red flag, but it is something that I. I was disappointed and it happens. I really want to see you though. Blah, blah, blah, blah. So we plan this day. I'm doing these things this day I'm free at this time. I tell her that, she tells me where she lives, blah blah. My assumption, and I'm aware it was my assumption. My assumption was I said, I'm, I'm done at this time. I'm free at 5. That since she didn't say I can't do 5, we were going to meet at 5. When I finished my thing at 4 something I messaged like, make some plans. She goes, hey, I'm dah dah dah dah dah dah. I'm going to take a shower. Let's meet at 7:30. Let's meet at 7. So in my head I'm like, yeah, I made the assumption five great. There's shows in town that I could do. A friend invited me to dinner that I can't go to because I'm going on this date with this girl. 704 comes because she said she was going to pick a place. Because I didn't know. I said, I understand. It's very masculine for a person to pick a place. I found these things. If you like them, let's do them. If not, I would love a little bit of help here. Where should we go? 704. And I'm saying it's 7:04. Because on my head I'm like, I'm waiting for her to message me, but I also don't want to gamify this. I'm. I didn't get the information. She's not a great texter, at least not yet. I don't. At 7:04. Where? Hey, where, you know, did you figure out a place yet? At 7:30 she said, I'm so sorry, I'm writing a little bit behind. Can we make it 8:30? I'm now thinking to myself, we said 5 to 7 to 8:30, but we have to take the 5 off the table. That was my assumption. But why don't we split the difference? The tickets that I couldn't give away, it's just, I'm like, what are we doing here? So I'm already now feeling, once we moved it to 8:30, I'm feeling like my ego doesn't even want to meet this person anymore. It is what it is at. At 8:30. At 8:30, not before 8:30. At 8: 30 she said, hey, I'm sorry, I'm running late Queen. I want to make it nine. If you don't want to meet now, if it's too late, I understand, but I still really want to meet you.

[A]

Which you don't want to meet.

[B]

It wasn't that I, I could look it up. It was basically what I received. It was her feeling bad that she pushed it back while also not, not conceding that she didn't make this a priority. Not this being me, this being her commitments. And if it's too late, I understand giving me an out, but letting me know I still really want to see you. I'm now like I could have gone to dinner. I mean if we made it 9:30, I could have, you know. And I wrote, I'm now thinking like, okay, if she comes, comes. And by the way, the plan where we were going to meet was now she said I'll come. She's gonna come to my hotel. This literally, it's an awesome hotel with a fun lounge downstairs. There's no in my mind assumption or, or there's nothing hookup about this. It's just she's now going to come to me for a convenience, I guess. And I'm thinking to myself, there's no way I'm going to be able to say nice to meet you and not call out the game. This is not. And she the tickets into this. So I, I wrote a letter.

[A]

A letter.

[B]

I mean a text, a letter. I actually kind of want to read it and maybe this is embarrassed. I didn't send it. Okay, can I pull it up?

[A]

It.

[B]

So I wrote something that I knew I was writing this for me. But after I wrote it I'm like, should I send this? And I sent it to a friend who I'M glad told me no, because his, his logic was. And I agree with this, you could always say this later. If you end up meeting this person and you feel safe and, and it's brought up, you have this. You, you, you're in touch with your feelings but before you ever meet a person. So if I, if I didn't give you this setup and, and I was just. And so I'd be like, hey, Rick's a bit much. What do you mean? Let me show you this text he sent a girl that he never met. You'd be like, dude, you're out of your mind. So I want to add the context that I'm aware of that, but this is how I articulated it to myself and I wanted to send it to her. I don't know how embarrassed I'm going to be yet because I don't remember this yet. I didn't send it.

[A]

It's a caveat.

[B]

I wanted to share something before we meet because if I didn't, I think I'd end up canceling or showing up in a way that doesn't feel genuine. I've been feeling frustrated. We were planning to meet at 5, then moved to 7 and then to 8:30. I turned down a stand up show and another podcast so we could get together, which I was happy to do, but it left me feeling like my time wasn't really being considered. Same with yesterday. I didn't send this. I held my last two tickets for you and when you let me know you weren't coming, the show had already started. I totally understand that plans change, but the timing left me feeling overlooked. I know you've had a busy week traveling. I get that things have been a lot. I'm not saying this to guilt you, only I'd rather tell you where I'm at than show up hiding if meeting up doesn't feel right after hearing that, I'll understand. By the way, at 9 at, at 9:30. At 9 it moved to 10 and she apologized that her friend is going through something and she lost track of time, which she didn't lose track of time because you told me. And she's. I'm running together. I'm getting it together. I said, hey, at this point, I'm at my hotel. If you want to come, I'd love to see you. If not, it is what it is. You know, I'm. Now I'm not doing anything anyway. So she tells me at, at 10:20 something that, that I'm. I'm in the car. And then she said well, technically, I'm waiting for the car is now still okay? I said, yeah, come. She said her uber is maybe 10 minutes away. 30 minutes goes by, and I said, are you coming? And she said, yes. Sorry, five minutes. I thought she meant she's in the Uber. It's five minutes away. After 20 minutes, I realized, oh, best case scenario, she meant the car is five minutes away. I messaged. When she said. I messaged her back my own. It was a bit passive aggressive. It was my only way of feeling like I'm being honest. I said, oh, I didn't realize you were crawling here. And then she ended up getting there at 11. Something drunk. Drunk. Which, by the way, I am so unattracted to people who are drinking, it's the grossest. I'm not saying it doesn't serve a purpose. I'm saying I can't. I don't want to be around it.

[A]

It's not hot.

[B]

A drink is different than, you know, I could tell you're drunk because your lips aren't the way they're supposed to be. You know, it's just like. And I'm like, now I'm forced to do this podcast with her for 90 minutes. By the way, Daniel Craig was there.

[A]

Okay, that's cool.

[B]

Very. And I go, that's James Bond, and this is his own thing. But she goes, who? And she's looking right there. I'm like, be fucking cool. And she goes, that's not him. And I was just like, all right. I'm like, you know what?

[A]

You went through the 90 minutes?

[B]

Yeah, I was there with her for 90 minutes.

[A]

Why did you not just pull the ripcord?

[B]

Can I tell you the truth?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

She's unbelievably beautiful. And I'm not proud of this. And I'm.

[A]

She's.

[B]

She. She is. She's so beautiful. Even drunk, there's a difference between being attracted to somebody and thinking that they're attractive.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I was actually happy that I wasn't attracted to her in that moment. I'm like, oh, I'm glad that. That this is not okay with me. Meaning that. But I wasn't enough to where I was like, hey, we gotta. You gotta get out of here. Also, the conversation wasn't the worst. And she's the mean. It was. It was. If it were a podcast, it would. I wouldn't have posted it. And I don't think I've ever done that. You know what I mean? But I was like, she's so beautiful. And this is just.

[A]

Get to look at this thing for 90 minutes.

[B]

It's, it's, it's less, it's more, it's more childish than that. It's like, I'm trying, I'm taking this to myself as well. Like, like it's somebody that I'm. That got grandfathered in. I've, we've, like I, I, I, this person that I've been wanting to meet. Not. I don't know if I'm going to like them or not. And there's, there wasn't any type of like a, like this crazy draw to them. I was like, this is really. And then I was excited all, all week to meet this person and then I do and I, she's so pretty. There's something. It was just. I'm in this cool city, I'm in this cool hotel. It's this beautiful girl. It's just, it's really fun to flirt with. It's really fun to flirt. I like flirting.

[A]

11:30Pm after it's been pushed, but I don't know if I would have. I commend you for first off, not sending that. Secondly, I think the way that it's written in terms of like this, I just want to state to you, this is how I'm feeling and this is why. And I think it's, you know, it's pretty balanced. I commend you for going through the 90 minute thing. I think my bitterness radar, my, my pissed offness, I wouldn't have been able to reach equanimity. And then drunk, I would have just.

[B]

Been like, I, I may have buried the lead within five minutes of meeting. I told her all of this. I forgot to say that.

[A]

Did that relieve that?

[B]

I think the only reason why we were able to have the 90 minutes.

[A]

Yeah. Okay.

[B]

She came in and she said how embarrassed she is and how sorry she is. And I said, I wrote a, I said, I wrote a text to a friend that I never sent to you. And now that you bring this up, I kind of want to tell you some things. Right. I didn't read it to her, but she. And I told her, yeah, yes, I hear you. I, if I had I not said that or had I said that and she received it unkindly, even with that.

[A]

Dude, I think the drunk thing would have just. I would have been like, is this, this is a practical joke. This has to be a practical joke.

[B]

I thought, I thought, I thought. Not even the drunk. I thought the way he kept being pushed back. I thought it was. Are we going to see how long he's going to be willing to do this.

[A]

Are you with your group of friend girlfriends going, I'm fucking stringing this guy along?

[B]

I'm feeling a bit self conscious right now about admitting something that was true. But not the only thing about, oh, because she's so beautiful. I mean, she is. And that's. That was true, but that wasn't. That wasn't what drove me to wanting to have the date. I mean, if I wasn't attracted to her, I wouldn't want to have it. It was when she showed up. There is a novelty to this thing where it was just like. That's what I meant about more childish. Like, this idea of like this high school thing of like, oh, this pretty person wants to hang out with me. Like, Like, I. I could pretend that didn't exist, but it does. You know, I feel that way. I feel that way all the time with my podcast when people come over. And like, when Sebastian came over, there's no way he's coming over and doing this if I don't have a podcast. So, like. But I'm still aware of, like, this is fucking crazy.

[A]

It's a little bit like being a porn star and getting to have sex. Like, they. I mean, they might want to do this, but they wouldn't be doing this if we weren't at work. Like, they're doing it because all of the cameras are here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So. But I get the simulacrum of, like, we're for like 90 minutes or two hours, we're friends.

[B]

And I get to. I get to ask you questions that I wanted to ask you, and I feel like.

[A]

And you have to answer them kind of.

[B]

You get, yeah. I mean. Or otherwise, like, you know, I'll ask you different.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But, yeah, there is this feeling like I both love who I am and feel like, why wouldn't you want to be friends with me? I also have this thing, like, I told you, I didn't really have friends as a kid, and I didn't even recognize it. I didn't feel unincluded, but I was and I didn't. Meaning I didn't recognize what being included means until I started playing basketball. And, like, these people are forced to be my friends, but they also. We have the same goals.

[A]

Porn star, Podcast guest. Yes. Basketball team.

[B]

So that still exists for me. It still exists for me where, like, I've become friends. Do you know Lisa Gilroy is. No. I think she's one of the funniest people in the world. She's been on my Podcast a bunch now. She's an improviser and an actress, and she's unbelievably funny.

[A]

Me.

[B]

She comes over and when she comes over and I've said this to her, like, it feels like, I'm so glad we're friends. Like, you want to be friends with me, right? The way we play with each other. There's this feeling of, like, when people want to be friends with me. And I know it. Where it's not like, oh, finally somebody likes me. It's not. It's. It doesn't remove a negative that exists. It's just this thing of, like, I have. Like, it's. Having friends is crazy. Having friends is like, you want to play. And being around a person that you're physically attracted to is another thing. It's like, this is fucking all. I love fucking looking at you. It feels so good to look. You want to kiss me. You want to kiss me. It's just. I'm not like, why would you want to kiss me? But I am so glad that you want. You want to. Like, when I was in school, when friends would go. Sometimes friends would go over to other friends, and everyone knows that because they had a note that the moms. Both moms or parents send or guardians, and the school agrees to that. You're going on their bus. So, like, when. So, like, you know, this kid's going on this kid's bus. So, you know, after school they're going to go and be friends with each other. And I was always like, fucking, that's crazy. All day, you know, he's coming on your bus. I still have that feeling. And it isn't exclusive to attractive people, but it is. It does feel. It's all very high school.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Like the. The varsity team or the pretty people or the funny people.

[A]

People. Rich people. Interesting people.

[B]

Oh, interesting. I never thought about rich people, but I can see how that's a thing.

[A]

Yeah, well, I. Anybody that has anything that other people want, that's.

[B]

That's the value thing. If somebody can make me laugh. Or like, if you. Awesome basketball player.

[A]

But that's the. How would you say, like, more shallow, transactional version of that is. Or maybe they can invest in my company or maybe. Maybe they know somebody that I can hire for this role that I need.

[B]

Oh, more. I was thinking even that was shallow. Yeah, I think that. I think. But isn't that how. I think that if. If your motives are undefined to the other person, then that's a bit like. But like, if you were to say hey, I'm a huge fan of yours, and I want you to love what I do because I think you might. You'd be a great partner for me, and if it offers value to you, I would love to work with you.

[A]

Yeah, that's true. It's. It's you.

[B]

The finding intention.

[A]

Yeah. The assumption there is that one person needs to coerce or cajole or convince the other person. Like, and they wouldn't do if they had all of the information. I want you to invest in my company, but you probably don't want to, but I'm gonna fugazi you into thinking. And I've got special kind of access, and I'm gonna do something in this situation that allows me to get that. Yeah.

[B]

I went to school for marketing and theater, and in one of my sales classes, I learned that I've also grew up.

[A]

Up.

[B]

My parents are in retail, and I've been in retail a lot. But when you try and sell somebody something, you're acting for yourself. But if you're trying to offer somebody a value. So, like, instead of saying, hey, I need to sell these phones, but instead I'm trying to overcome an obstacle that you have that this phone would help overcome. So, like, finding out somebody else's needs, if you are. If this wouldn't benefit you, then I don't even want to sell this to you because it's a waste of both of our time and it's manipulative. But if the other person has. So, like, don't sell the product. Sell the. Sell the obstacle that the other person has. And that's like, what you're saying of, like, you know, you have a lot of money and what's a hundred thousand dollars to you? Just let me have it. And then another version of that that is. That feels very like Hollywood is this idea of, like, I'm only, like, talking to you and being friends with you because maybe you might want to.

[A]

To.

[B]

And then you see somebody else, you know, like, having conversation with somebody and then they see somebody else.

[A]

I'll. I'll.

[B]

I'll say right away, I. I'm not saying that you want to go and talk to somebody else, but if you do, like, we could end this conversation. I. I'm not. I. When people, When I'm talking to somebody on their phone, I don't think that they shouldn't be on their phone, but I'm. I'm going to wait. When. When I'm with somebody and they go to the bathroom when we're watching something, I'm going to press pause. It's all the same shit. But when I see somebody doing that, there's no way. I'm not with you anymore. I'm not with you, so just say, hey, listen, I know this might be rude, but there's a Dwyane Wade is over there and is a huge fan. I want to see if I can, like, kind of get and get a picture. Come with me or I'll come back and have this conversation. I just got to go see Dwayne Wade. You know, the thought isn't super. The superficial thought is human. It's the way that you hide it or. Or from yourself and. Or the other person. And that's where the practice of calling out the game, I think, is just. It's not brave. What's brave is to not look at Dwayne Wade and just pretend that I'm here with you when I'm not. You know what I mean?

[A]

I didn't think that's brave. I think that's cowardly.

[B]

It's harder. I guess instead of saying brave, I'll say it's harder.

[A]

Yeah, it is. It is. In. In some ways, you're suppressing something, but it's emotionally maybe easier. Certain emotions, like, if you're. Your shame and your codependency and your social awkwardness is stronger than your need to get a photo with this guy. Like, your, like, desire, passion, whatever, curiosity, you're like, I'm gonna lock in. I'm gonna keep looking, and this is going to be okay. And look at him again and then.

[B]

And then, and then. But you also, you find your differences to say, hey, listen, I don't want to be rude. I just saw Dwayne is there, and I wasn't listening for a second. I'm back with you. But how cool is that? Like saying. Just acknowledging.

[A]

Acknowledging otherwise, I'm here doing it in a classy way. I think the delivery of this is the devil's in the details of how you actually do this thing. Because you can do it in a really clunky way, right? And I imagine somebody who.

[B]

What's a clunky way if it's honest?

[A]

Clunky way.

[B]

Well, still honest. But what's clunky?

[A]

Well, there are better and worse ways. Like the one that you just did there, which is like, dude, like, I just seen this guy, and he's like, he's so fucking cool. And, like, isn't that sick? Like, should we go over there? I want to go over. Do you want to come with me? Like, part of. It's the inclusion to sense that you're involving them. It's the sort of doing it as a little undercurrent thing. It's like, oh, this is us. This is our little secret thing. And like, you're in on it. As opposed to, oh, that's such a funny way.

[B]

You're right. That's a funny way of looking at it. By doing it like this, it's almost as if I'm telling you what I'm thinking, but I'm also including you in my thought.

[A]

You're part of it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. You're not excluding.

[B]

That's such an interesting way of looking at it.

[A]

It.

[B]

Of like, yeah, you're including somebody. Yeah, I. I think sometimes maybe I. I'm saying something that I feel is valuable information, the rules to a game, but I'm doing it for me and not necessarily including the other person. And maybe that's like what you're saying of like, oh, it messes up the momentum or changes things because anyway, it's just an interesting perspective that I hadn't. Hadn't thought of before.

[A]

I think so.

[B]

Yeah. I think that's awesome.

[A]

Yeah. Well, how wonderful to make somebody feel included in this thing, obviously.

[B]

But, like, yeah, I don't think. I think that's a. I think that's a tool that I could sharpen of. Like, is this including somebody? This happens when things feel serious to me and I don't want to. Yeah, whatever. I don't have more to say on that. I just think it's a. It's a. I love the way that you articulated the thing that I was already doing. But here's maybe why this works versus, hey, I'm doing this now. Like, me not messaging that. How do I know when to tell the person the thing I'm feeling? Sometimes, you know, you tell this person that's kind of. You know, I do think if I message that to her before we ever met, it wouldn't benefit either of us because. Because it could benefit either of us. But there's a. There's a better chance of doing it in person eye to eye, where they could. They could hear my tone instead of assume it. Like, wait a second, but I. Like, I felt like a liar by not sending it. I'm not okay with this. I'm not okay with moving it to nine or nine, 30 or 10. I could be if she knew how I felt, but, like, swallow it now. And I do think, like, I didn't know why, even though I agree that I do think Think by telling her that I'm not including her and how I'm feeling, I'm telling her how I'm feeling. And I do think there's a significant difference whether it's literally saying, you could come with me to Dwight Wade or like saying, hey, I want to tell you. Even just a whispering, it's like, it's hey, I want. This is just for you.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's lovely.

[B]

I love. There's sometimes something. Something you just realize or something somebody says and it's like, oh, oh, you could put. I could put that in my bag now. Where it's just like, when in doubt, ask, is this including this person? So, yeah, thanks.

[A]

That was great, dude. That's awesome. Rick, let's bring it home, bro. I've really been looking forward to meeting you. I actually had a question for you, which was why? Well, I guess you explained it earlier on that you feel you learn something and sometimes it's interesting even if it's not quite in your wheelhouse. I was surprised that you were a fan of the show. I didn't think that it was slap bang in the middle of the bullseye of what you would be into. But then actually, I mean, I've had a lot of conversations with people that on the surface I think would have been like, oh, well, obviously these two people make sense. And today's been so much fucking fun. I found it very, very cozy, actually, to be honest. And like, very intimate.

[B]

Sweaters.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I don't know. You asked me, but I have an answer for watching your stuff. 1. As a. And I don't mean this term derogatory, but as a performer. Like, you are a performer. I'm not saying you're. It's disingenuous, but I mean, like, as somebody who is in front of cameras, literally looking straight to the camera and saying stuff you're aware of, you're doing this with a purpose for people to consume it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

There are some performers that I feel like I believe you and some I don't. And not believing somebody isn't a bad thing. Like, I know Robert Downey Jr isn't Iron man, but I could still buy into it. You know what I mean? Like, that's a. He's doing a certain type of performance. So on one thing, I believe you. I believe that you want to be saying what you're saying and also by design of what your show is. It seems like you're like, you're documenting your growth, whether it's literally how Many subscribers you have or how many people. Shit, before it got into your mouth, you were just like, you're learning. And that's like part of the context of this. So I've just connect to that because it's like, maybe you have something that will benefit me, you know, like, like the perspective of inclusion, which maybe somebody has said to me before and it just didn't clock at the right time. And then you have guests on that that are like, that have points of view. So like the combination of a point of view that I might share, I might not share opposite somebody who I believe that since I'm not in the room to call somebody out or to ask a curiosity, I believe that the person is there is going to do it the best that person can. And I just think it's an attractive show. It isn't. I mean, it's literally, visually it is too, but like, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's stuff that helps, that doesn't feel like I'm watching a self help. Not that there's anything wrong with watching self help, but it's just people talking about, you know what I've noticed and like you did notice it. You know what I mean? Like, oh, here's something you actually noticed. Let me listen. I think you have a great show, dude.

[A]

Thank you. Yeah, that's really kind. I really love yours as well. I think that the way that it makes me feel, most importantly, it's not what I take away, it's like the way that it makes me feel. And like, I don't know why this, the word of the day is cozy. Maybe it is like jumper vibes.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

And the bio, the little description that you've got of it and the I.

[B]

Don'T even remember that I wrote that like when I first started.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I think I'm a boy or I'm a silly boy or something like that in there. And yeah, the little illustration that comes across, like he's a little cute, he's like poking out behind the side. Yeah. To me it's like, like, oh, fuck. Like it feels like I can just, it's like Sunday afternoon for me. And that's like very, very nice.

[B]

I, I, by design, having a studio would benefit for a lot of different logistical reasons. But by design, I want to do it in my living room. I also, when people come over and they want to have their publicists, like people who I don't know who I am and I would love to have them on, I say no. And nobody else could be in the room. And it's just, you're in my living room, and I want to feel like you're in my living room. And I do think there's a coziness to it, that maybe that's a coincidence that you said it, maybe not. But that is, like a tone of this show where maybe I'll be funny, maybe I won't. But as long as we could both be comfortable and, like, show up as we are now, then, like, I don't have to worry about was this good or not.

[A]

That's definitely something that's been a challenge with doing these, what we call the cinema shoots, which is what this is that trying to make it feel like, unencumbered, natural, like, fuck, you know, there's all of these cameras and all of this stuff and lighting, and it looks fantastic. But okay, how do we, like, get to the fucking connection bit? And how do we get out of. Not necessarily performance mode, because you use the word professionally, Ron, which I thought was really good. It's like turning up when you're nervous or energized or whatever the closest approximation was. It's like, that's being a professional. That's being a professional. I turn up and I do my job, even if I fuck, I'm too tired or I didn't learn my lines, or I, you know, this new bit's gonna fucking eat shit or whatever it is. Like. Like I'm a professional, so I'm going to turn up and do that. But what you're trying to do with a conversation like this is get to that moment where it's like, ah, like we've circled around this dream.

[B]

Figure out any tricks that you could.

[A]

Articulate, ooh, a little bit. The right amount of foreplay before you get in. Which was what we did, like, no more than 10 minutes.

[B]

Dude. That's so funny that you say that, because I, by design, don't want, like. Because I meet people outside and walk them in and I say, you sometimes stop filming outside.

[A]

Eh?

[B]

No, no, no. I say, hey. I say, this is producer Rick. I don't want to be rude. I don't even want to meet you yet. I want to meet them on camera. And interesting that you're saying don't over. So why, what have you found? And I know we're wrapping it up, but tell me, what have you found by foreplay before camera that benefits this?

[A]

It's the same thing with going for dinner with the guests the night before. I'll go with. I would Love to go to dinner with you afterward. I'd love to go to dinner with you after we record, right? Not going to dinner with you before. I'm not going to dinner with you the night before.

[B]

Yeah, we're saying the same thing.

[A]

All of the best that we want to talk about. I know this thing about you, and I watched this thing, and I've got the jumper.

[B]

Like, but that's the foreplay before.

[A]

That's. But. So my point is, dinner is way too much.

[B]

You do a little.

[A]

But, like, you come in and we say, hey, and we do this. Even you start to creep out into 15 minutes. And this. Unless you're in a group. And that helps because other people can do their thing, but all of the shit that you want to talk about, you don't have that much to talk about. And it's always. And it's like below the surface. It's always just, like, trying to peek up, like, just below the surface. And then the second that you get to talk, it starts bursting through, and you're like, no, fuck, the camera's not on. Like, shut the fuck up. So limit the foreplay stuff before. I think is. Is real good. A very. At least in my experience, because of the style of my show. Like, a very quick, like, snappy first question. Although today we just started talking. But if it is a little bit more Huberman y, like, it's about you. The show's about you. It's not about me sometimes it's about me. When it's solo episode. Yeah, but it is. The show is entirely like inverse charisma. 100%. It's like, I want you to look as good as possible on the show. Even if it's somebody that I'm gonna try and push. I'm like, I want you to have the. The longest amount of rope. And with it, you can start doing, like, fucking skipping tricks, or you can hang yourself with it. But I'm gonna, like, give it to you as much as possible. Here's the fucking trampoline or the pedestal. And from up there, like, proselytize about whatever you want. And you're gonna look silly. You're gonna look great. But I'm gonna try and make you look. I'm gonna try and get the best version of whatever your argument is, your position. Bernie Sanders on the show in New York last week. Fucking, who was supposed to have Kamala Harris today? That didn't come off. But I was also on Tucker's show, and I'm like, I guess I was a guest but you know, I've had whatever Ben Shapiro. It's like no matter who it is, I'm like, okay, I really want to get to what you mean. Like, I really want to work out what you mean. And I'm not gonna. I'm not good at being cantankerous and like sort of back by the flames flaming.

[B]

I know what can't take care of sweenes. But for the people at home that.

[A]

Don'T disagreeable, like purposefully, like brusque and like spiky. Like I'm not good at that. That. Anyway, so quick first question. It's like, hey, away you go. This is about you. I'm gonna get the fuck out the way. Like nice, easy, low ball. First question. Huberman, like asking him about. He's doing lots of stuff about cortisol. So I think the first question was like, most people think that cortisol is a bad thing. Is that true?

[B]

It's like, absolutely not.

[A]

There you go. That helps. Deepening the connection is sometimes difficult because you can't force it. As you've identified today, you can't force connection. You're like, am I here with this person? One thing I have noticed, and I learned this term yesterday, which I think you might fucking love. Joe Hudson taught me vagal authority. So what he's referring to, in any interaction or in any room, one person's nervous system is dictating everybody else's. So somebody is in a conversation group or one on one, and they get all excited and do you get excited too? Do you. Does your nervous system.

[B]

Well, by design. Aren't you saying that it would. That you would. You're saying that somebody's nervous system is affecting other people's.

[A]

They are. But this vagal authority, which is whose nervous system is dictating the.

[B]

Oh, it's the alpha of the.

[A]

I did think about that. He's doing it in a much more embodied way. But yeah, kind of. It's like, who. Who is the alpha from a vagal perspective? Somebody gets all excited. Do you stay calm and do they come back down? Somebody gets all excited and do you go meet them?

[B]

That's just co regulation, right?

[A]

It is, but it seems to be, at least in Joe's language, it was. One person tends to own that more. And now what I didn't ask him and I should have done. What I love is when you're. You have sufficiently low, Low sufficiently high humility or low ego where you can go, okay, this is your turn to have the vagal authority. So there was moment where we got silly and there's a moment where you get to be excited, but then sometimes you don't have that. You're not on the same frequency quite so much and you're a little bit more here. And then you need to be. At least I found a bit more blunt.

[B]

Yeah. You said, let me get back to the thing, whatever happened, a bit more.

[A]

Blunt with your vagal authority. But even not doing it verbally, even just being like, I've done it in episodes where I've. I've been able to tell that somebody's nervous. And instead of me sort of matching that speed of being really quick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. I've been like, taking a purposeful, like, three second break. They've finished talking or they've asked me a question. I'm like.

[B]

I would think if somebody was nervous and the person opposite them stopped talking and just went, hmm, that would make him, like, more nervous.

[A]

If they ask a question, if it's a statement, that's a bad idea. If it's a question, it's good. So if they say so, you're taking.

[B]

In their question and I'm going, huh, Reverse Riz, or whatever you called it.

[A]

Reverse Riz. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

You know, it's inside out, Rizzo. I've never been asked that question before. It's almost like you're giving that. Right, exactly. Like you're an unbelievable question.

[A]

Allow me to, Allow me to give what you've just said so much respect that I'm genuinely going to consider. And also take a second to chill your nervous system out, dude, because, like, you're a little bit up here and we can.

[B]

Yeah, you know, that's. That sounds better than What I would do is probably. You seem nervous. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Yes. So this is you breaking the rules of the game or calling them out and me trying to play within them. I'm like, how? And.

[B]

One could work when the other doesn't and vice versa.

[A]

I think so. Rick Glassman, ladies and gentlemen. Dude, you're awesome. I appreciate the fuck out of you.

[B]

Thanks, man. This was cool. Thanks for having me. What a big podcast that you included me on with all your fun, like, star guests.

[A]

Yeah. Why should people go? They want to check out everything that you're doing. You on tour? Are you doing tour?

[B]

I, I'm. I'm. Yes. And I have to set up all the new dates. My, my. I only have a few more cities left. I'm in Vegas, Cleveland and Phoenix. Punchup Live Slash. Rick Glassman, you can sign up for my email list. The only time I email you is if I'm coming within 50 miles of your city. I'm setting up my next year now, and my podcast is called take your shoes off. If there's anything that I tell people that I'm the most proud of to watch, it's. It's that.

[A]

What episodes should people start with?

[B]

Well, I don't know if this is the best starting episode, but my favorite episodes of recent are, I guess a good starting episode maybe be David Cornerswet, who plays Superman. That's fun because it has a lot of lass, but it's also very connected in what we talk about. But right now, I've had Paul Rudd on twice. Paul Rudd 1.0 and 2.0 are probably my favorite because I didn't know him before the podcast, and it ended up becoming something that I almost didn't post because in the second Paul Rudd one, something happened and I asked him and he let me post it. But, yeah, it's wild, it's weird, but that's probably what I would recommend people watching.

[A]

I think the. That doing it in the living room is definitely creating a sense of disarming in that way that allows people to sort of drop in and that connection.

[B]

And it's called take your shoes off. And almost everybody who I've never met, even if they're not a comedian, they take their shoes off with it. Or they come in and they give me a little bit of a jab. I've noticed this recently. I'm like, oh, this isn't like, oh, you want me to take your shoes off down here? Like, what, are you afraid I'm gonna get mud all over the place? Whatever it is, nothing. Mean they acknowledge that, that I had to take their shoes. They have to take their shoes off, and it's my fault, you know, and they, like, call me. And I also. I was thinking about this recently where, like, oh, they're comfortable right away. Because I'm saying I'm. I'm showing a weakness of mine and asking for their help. Will you take your shoe? I used to make people wash their hands when they come in. Like, before I got a dog. I mean, there was no unprotected sex, right? But anyway, I'm lingering, I'm having fun.

[A]

Fawning on the fucking couch. And.

[B]

But yeah, people come in, they have to take their shoes off. They see that I am, because I make a lot of jokes and, like, I could be a bit aggressive, but they see me right away as saying, hey, I need your help with something. I have OCD where you sit on this thing and take your shoes off, and they feel like, okay, I can maybe now show him my things. Which was an accident. That I think, like, a lot of times when people have ocd, they'll let you me know right away at the beginning of an episode, and they'll tell me their things because they saw mine end. Does that make sense?

[A]

That's awesome.

[B]

All right. I'm lingering. I'm having fun. The caffeine's still in. Thanks for having me.

[A]

Appreciate you.