Podcast Summary: Modern Wisdom #868 - Mads Larsson on The Hidden Truth About Our Collapsing Birth Rates
Host: Chris Williamson
Guest: Mads Larsson
Release Date: November 23, 2024
In episode #868 of Modern Wisdom, host Chris Williamson engages in a deep and thought-provoking conversation with Mads Larsson, an author and journalist specializing in the history of human mating ideologies. The discussion delves into the pressing issue of declining birth rates in Norway and its global implications, exploring the underlying psychological, evolutionary, and societal factors contributing to this demographic crisis.
1. Introduction to the Crisis
Chris Williamson opens the conversation by highlighting the significance of Mads Larsson's work on Norway's declining birth rates, emphasizing the controversial nature of the topic and the ensuing backlash Larsson has faced. He states:
"Why is Mads facing outrage for speaking a truth that could save his country?" [00:00]
Mads Larsson explains that his efforts to raise awareness about the fertility crisis in Norway have led to personal attacks and accusations of misogyny.
"I tried to get my country of Norway to start taking the fertility crisis seriously... people weren't happy." [04:40]
2. Origins of the Declining Birth Rate Debate
The discussion begins with Larsson recounting the genesis of his research, which began with an article co-authored with evolutionary psychology professor Leif Kinner. They introduced the concept of "involuntary single women," a term that sparked significant controversy.
"We conceptualized and theorized the concept of involuntary single women in singles... people felt that talking about this was misogynistic." [05:00]
3. Evolutionary Psychology and Mating Systems
Larsson provides an in-depth analysis of human mating psychology, contrasting historical mating systems with the modern context. He explains the dual attraction systems within humans: the promiscuous attraction system and the pair bonding attraction system.
"We are the first societies in human history that have individual partner choice... we have both a promiscuous attraction system and a pair bonding attraction system." [06:55]
He elaborates on how these systems have interacted over millions of years but become increasingly dysfunctional in contemporary societies due to the shift towards individualistic partner choice.
"Women have been empowered to have their own jobs... now women are a lot more selective, leading to a dysfunctional dating market." [07:45]
4. Societal Changes and Women's Independence
The conversation addresses the social transformations that have empowered women, granting them economic independence and the freedom to choose partners based on personal preference rather than necessity.
"Women have been empowered to have their own jobs, make their own money, be free, and importantly, to choose their own partners." [38:15]
Larsson argues that while these advancements are undoubtedly positive, they have inadvertently contributed to lower fertility rates by creating high standards that are difficult for many men to meet.
"Women have increased their standards because they have more choice... this makes it harder for women to find partners." [34:37]
5. Consequences of Declining Birth Rates
Larsson paints a stark picture of the future if current trends continue, using Norway's fertility rate of 1.4 as a case study. He warns that such rates lead to a significant reduction in population size over generations, threatening societal stability and economic sustainability.
"With a fertility rate of 1.4, you lose one-third of your generational size per generation... it is a very real existential threat." [10:53]
He also connects this demographic decline to broader global challenges, including the climate crisis, arguing that an aging and shrinking population would hinder technological advancements and resource allocation necessary to address environmental issues.
"Solving the climate crisis... needs a functional and cooperative society, which won't be possible if populations collapse." [14:40]
6. Resistance and Backlash to the Discussion
Larsson discusses the societal pushback against acknowledging and addressing declining birth rates. He recounts personal attacks, including being labeled a misogynist and fascist, which he attributes to discomfort and misunderstanding surrounding the topic.
"I've been called a misogynist, a fascist because I bring up this problem... the beginning phase of a really important debate." [26:21]
Chris Williamson empathizes with Larsson's experience, noting the difficulty in having nuanced discussions without falling into inflammatory rhetoric.
"It's like the bigotry dartboard... it's so predictable." [28:49]
7. Potential Solutions and Interventions
The conversation shifts towards possible interventions to counteract declining birth rates. Larsson emphasizes the need for innovative approaches that respect women's freedoms while addressing the dysfunction in the mating market.
"We need to start experimenting with new ways of dating and mating, but never anything that would involve jeopardizing women's freedoms." [48:27]
He critiques current strategies, such as financial incentives for parents, which have proven largely ineffective. Instead, he advocates for a deeper understanding of mating psychology and the creation of environments that facilitate meaningful partnerships.
"We need to agree that this is a problem and that it's an existential problem... find new dating arenas, increase knowledge around this, change people’s approach to dating and mating." [30:17]
8. Understanding the Bottlenecks
Larsson outlines the three primary bottlenecks in the reproduction pipeline:
- Finding a Partner: The increasing difficulty in establishing romantic relationships due to high standards and stratified mating markets.
- Deciding to Have Children: Cultural and ideological shifts that normalize and even celebrate childlessness.
- Ability to Reproduce: Though currently less of an issue, concerns about sperm quality and fertility persist.
"We have several bottlenecks in the pipeline between being single and having a child... finding a partner is the most significant." [34:50]
9. Cultural Change and New Ideologies of Love
Addressing the second bottleneck, Larsson discusses the need for a cultural shift in how love and partnerships are perceived. He critiques the modern ideology of "confluent love," which emphasizes individual fulfillment over long-term commitment and stability.
"We live in a world with the mating ideology that's called confluent love... individualistic self-realization." [62:03]
He contrasts this with historical ideologies, such as romantic love and the breadwinner/housewife model, which, despite their flaws, facilitated higher birth rates by fostering strong, enduring partnerships.
"From the early 1800s until 1986, we had the ideology romantic love... pushed people together and made them have children to a sufficient extent." [62:03]
10. Global Perspectives and Comparisons
Larsson broadens the discussion to a global scale, noting that declining birth rates are a widespread phenomenon affecting various countries, each with unique cultural factors. He underscores that despite differing local reasons cited in media (e.g., migration, cost of living), the underlying mating dynamics are universally compromised.
"Everywhere except for Israel, basically they've managed... this is a global situation." [33:38]
11. Future Outlook and Call to Action
In concluding remarks, Larsson emphasizes the urgency of addressing the fertility crisis to prevent societal collapse. He calls for sustained public debate, research funding, and innovative policy experimentation to create environments conducive to raising families without reverting to oppressive measures.
"This is a brand new system that no human community has succeeded with... we need to start experimenting and trying new things." [52:19]
Chris Williamson echoes the existential nature of the demographic decline, comparing it to other global risks but highlighting its unique and insidious progression.
"Demographic collapse is this really unique class of... it's a different kind of existential risk." [82:29]
12. Closing Thoughts
The episode wraps up with mutual appreciation between host and guest. Larsson expresses gratitude for the platform to discuss such a critical issue despite the challenges, while Williamson commends Larsson's courage and persistence.
"Thank you for pushing this and not just inviting me but so many others to talk about this." [79:47]
Key Takeaways:
- Declining birth rates pose a significant existential threat, leading to population reduction and societal instability.
- Evolutionary psychology explains the dysfunction in modern mating markets, where women's increased independence and high standards limit partnerships.
- Cultural and ideological shifts have normalized childlessness, further exacerbating the fertility crisis.
- Effective solutions require innovative policies and cultural changes that respect individual freedoms while addressing mating market dysfunctions.
- Global phenomenon: Declining birth rates are a widespread issue, necessitating international attention and action.
Notable Quotes:
- "Trust really is everything when it comes to supplements." [00:00] (Note: This was part of advertisements and should be skipped as per instructions.)
- "With a fertility rate of 1.4, you lose one-third of your generational size per generation." [10:53]
- "If we don't have these discussions now, things do not look good." [14:40]
- "Women have increased their standards because they have more choice... this makes it harder for women to find partners." [34:37]
- "This is the biggest problem we've faced, at least in a very long time. Let's try to solve it. Let's not resign and give up." [43:22]
- "This is a brand new system that no human community has succeeded with." [52:19]
Further Resources:
- Books by Mads Larsson:
- Stories of Love from Vikings to Tinder – An exploration of 800 years of Western love ideologies.
- Research Publications:
- Available on Google Scholar and ResearchGate.
- Podcast Episodes:
- Mads Larsson’s discussions on various platforms can provide more insights into his research and perspectives.
This episode of Modern Wisdom serves as a crucial wake-up call, urging listeners to recognize and address the demographic challenges that threaten the very fabric of society. Through Mads Larsson's expert analysis, the conversation sheds light on the complex interplay between evolutionary psychology, societal changes, and their profound impact on birth rates.