← Modern Wisdom
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- [00:00]
A
I was saying to you before we got started, I really have noticed in myself as I've spent more time creating content and talking about challenges in life, I've started to gravitate toward the people that I listen to or the sorts of topics that I used to consume when I very, very first started. And these are people like yourself, Oliver Berkman, Alain de Botton, from the School of Life, you know, people that really see the human condition with all of its challenges, all of its shortcomings, all of its foibles and the sort of very unashamed, unabashed self reflection of look, we're irrational, we're shaven chimps on a rock. We didn't ask to be here, we don't know how to be here. We're living in an environment that's hopelessly mismatched with the genetics and the biological predisposition that we were given. We've got technology that's moving way quicker than even our brains can keep up, let alone our evolution. It's tough and it's okay. And maybe this comforting sentence will help. Like that's kind of the center of where I'm at at the moment. And I think you slot very nicely into that.
- [01:12]
B
Yeah, thank you. I mean, you broke it down really beautifully. And it's like, hopefully this sentence builds a little bit of self awareness, right? Because we're highly imperfect, we're bound to make mistakes. But the reality is that in the process of accepting how imperfect you are, it's almost like you take your power back and you're like, okay, well I know what I'm good at and I know what I'm not good at. So let me try to build some new, you know, some new skills along the way.
- [01:40]
A
Yeah, I think there's a few different ways that you can do it. Maybe people that are more disposed towards positive affect or extroversion or like high energy, perhaps they would default to kind of laughing it off. You know, they make a joke out of it. It's not so big of a deal. Isn't it silly? Like, look at the way that my brain works. Look at the. And then there's different horses for courses. I think if you've got the level of self reflection of someone like Oliver Berkman, laughing at the absurdity of your own thoughts is probably a little bit harder to do. So, you know, he works through it kind of more methodically. He takes it sort of step by step. He understands, okay, well this is because of this and this is because of this and this because of this, and then with this very large view, we actually get to, we get, we get some perspective and we step back from being caught up in the torrent of our own thoughts.
- [02:30]
B
Oh, that's really interesting. You know, it's, it's. I think what's really worked for me is sort of just honestly realizing how flimsy thoughts are, like flimsy and like insubstantial. So to me, when I find myself getting caught up in a thought stream or some narrative that's just building tension, I have to like, pull myself back and I'm like, wait, like, why am I hanging on to this, this thing that's so incredibly impermanent? Like, why am I just, you know, allowing anxiety and tension and heaviness to just continue bubbling up in my mind when you, you know, I'm the one causing this tension. So let me let it go.
- [03:05]
A
It's wild to think how much stress and suffering we have caused ourselves.
- [03:10]
B
Yeah. And I think that's like the key medicine, right? It's really hard to accept the fact that like the person who hurt you can't heal you. And ultimately your perception and your reaction, all this of which is happening inside your own mind. That's where the real trouble lies, you know, when you understand that your perception is coated heavily by the past and that it's influencing the way you're seeing things in the present moment and you're not actually seeing them clearly, you're just seeing them through this like heavy coated lens of old pain, old sort of inclinations, sort of defensive, like survivalist mode of living, makes it really hard to engage with something genuinely. So I honestly, when people, you know, ask me, how do you become happy? Well, you have to embrace mental training. You have to train the mind.
- [03:59]
A
Yeah, it's an unruly steed to have between your ears in the same way as a bad horse might be between your legs. But I mean, you know, when you realize, and I feel like I have to put this caveat on the Internet for the edge cases of people. There are certainly some people for whom the world has mistreated them consistently from when they were a baby until when they were an adult. And for those people, I feel bad for you. That being said, the vast majority of the Bell curve, with that caveat out of the way, we are the ultimate source of most of our own suffering. We know exactly where our fears lie, we know where our shame is hidden, and we're able to pick at that scab over and over again. We almost get this strange sense of satisfaction when we do that, when we go back over a familiar but painful loop that we move through, oh, you did this thing and you did that thing and it's gonna make this happen and you didn't do that thing before you know the path. It's like going on a walk. It's like a little mental walk that you take yourself on. And you turn right when you get to this tree, and you turn left when you get to that stream. And yeah, when you realize, holy fuck. Sure, stuff happens outside, but largely that's just these sort of little sparks. The Palisades fire that comes from that is me perpetuating it, pouring kerosene on it.
- [05:21]
B
Exactly.
- [05:22]
A
Not giving myself a break, not allowing myself to have perspective. And it's two things. It is liberating and guilt inducing because you realize that the. If you're a prisoner inside of these bad thoughts, you're also the prison guard. And that means that the fact that you haven't sort of turned the key and opened the door is on you. And there's a type of pressure that's associated with that which can make you feel uncomfortable.
- [05:47]
B
Right. And I think, I mean, you're hitting on a key thing too here, where letting go is not a one time event. So once you kind of see yourself going into the loop, jumping back in, sort of like giving power again to like the old traumatic moment of someone hurting you. Like, yeah, someone did hurt you, but who's the one picking it back up? Like, who's the one? Like, you know, it's encoded in your perception and then you keep reacting to that emotional response to it over and over again. And that's what's making your mind heavy. And I think instead of just sort of existing passively in that, you have to kind of take your power back and tell yourself, okay, what is my mind clinging to? And if my mind is clinging in this moment, what does that mean? I'm no longer in the present. I'm like swimming around in my mind. And it's the same way where either dealing with trauma from the past or with dealing with attachments of the future, like, I want X and Y, you know, like all these things to happen in a very particular way, and you're craving all of that, then the mind is just riddled with tension. But I think it's, it's a difficult thing because sometimes people go to an extreme where they're like, oh, so what does that mean? I do nothing, want nothing. It's like, no, it's having desires and goals in a balanced Manner like, can you move forward towards your goal in a strategic way without causing yourself tons of suffering in the process? And I think that's something that, you know, honestly, I've had to learn the hard way because I have goals. But I realize, you know, with each book launch I'm realizing, like, how am I handling this? Am I handling a little better than before? And. And I can really measure that by the mixture of productivity and what the stress level is.
- [07:23]
A
And I find productivity and pain, it's. Yeah, how much, how much am I getting done and how much am I suffering while I'm trying to do it?
- [07:29]
B
Yeah. And I honestly. And then the higher level of that too is like, I'm actually noticing that I can be more productive with less stress if I just allow myself to do my best in each situation and then let it go. It is what it is.
- [07:44]
A
Yeah, I, you know, you're well read when it comes to Buddhism, significantly better than I am. But the tiny little, like Cliff Notes stuff that I've got, you know, letting go of desire, letting go non attachment. I think if everybody just had to meditate, that might actually be a really great strat. That would probably be kind of the single turnkey solution. If you can let go of all attachments, if you can let go of all desires, then you're probably going to end up assuming that you're not totally terrible at meditation and mindfulness. You're probably going to end up somewhere close to pretty good. The problem is, and the reason that I've never been able to kind of fully get on board with that, given that you probably have constraints around your ability to dedicate yourself to that philosophy, you have to exist within the existing framework, which is, I am a social animal that needs status and validation and recognition and external praise. And that's me, it's part of me. And one route would be completely detox myself from that, rid myself of all of these attachments, you know, basically transcend the programming that a couple of million years have given me. You go, all right, assuming that that is perhaps too lofty of a goal for almost everybody to get, except for super elite meditators, how can I play within the system? How can I play the game whilst knowing that it's not about the game? And, yeah, that balance, I think, is where the sort of devil in the details lies.
- [09:25]
B
It's quite a challenge too, because I think a lot of times when we get caught up in the social aspect of life, where, you know, the things that you're trying to achieve, the circles that you want to be a part of just, you know, the value that you want to bring to the world. I think it's really. And this happens to so many people that their success, they can't even enjoy it because the mind is so untrained. The mind is so geared towards, okay, I accomplished this, what's next? What else can I do after that? And there's very little joy in that. So I think like one thing that I found pretty often was when I go away to meditation retreats, like I'm going. And it's basically I'm taking myself to a mental gym. Like I'm, I'm specifically focusing on cultivating three qualities. Cultivating awareness, cultivating non reaction and cultivating compassion for myself and others. And those three qualities, like over time, yes, you can become an extraordinarily elite meditator. Can, can, you know, really, you know, walk this path that leads to the end of suffering. But in the process, what it really does is it just makes life brighter, shinier, it improves your decision making. It makes you way more productive with way less tension. And I think to me it's like, it's the best investment I've ever made. You know, it's like better than investing in the S&P 500 for 20, 30 years. So to me, when people ask me, they're like, why do you meditate daily? It's, you know, you're so busy, it takes up so much time. And I'm like, because it improves every facet of my life and it makes the moments of victory so much sweeter. Like the moments that I get to spend with my parents, with my wife, with friends. You know, when, when I do am able to accomplish something, it's like I can be with it and engage with so much more presence. And then when it's done, it's done and I'm okay and I can move forward, but in a way where I didn't miss the previous moment, if that makes sense.
- [11:15]
A
Yeah, well, that's the attachment thing again, right in advance of it, you're anticipating it. You can't wait for it to happen. While it's happening, you can have a bunch of things going on. You can feel. Oliver Berkman describes this beautifully. He talks about a gorgeous morning in the Yorkshire Dales, near where he lives. And he says he gets up on time, he has the perfect coffee that he made himself in his hand and he walks out. It's the middle of December, there's this beautiful vista in front of him. You know, it's Just untouched, unfettered snow. Perfectly. You know, it looks like a postcard. And during the experience of this, you know, very normal but very peak moment, he thinks to himself, this is a beautiful morning. This is the sort of morning that you should be having all of the time. And the fact that you're not having this sort of morning all of the time is actually a failing of yours. So in the moment of experiencing, he's already looking over the shoulder of the present moment to consider what's coming next, to regret the fact that he hasn't done this in the past. And, yeah, I mean, there's. There's so many ways that you can ruin peak experiences. And then what you end up with is basically a string of miserable successes. You know, you have. You have the wall of all of the things. You've got the photos or you've got the accolades. You can say that you did the thing, but when. This is definitely true for me, man, this isn't me castigating the audience. This is me saying, like, this is me. This is my experience when I'm not. When I'm untrained, when I haven't spent enough time meditating, when I'm not putting my mind where my feet are. You can have a repertoire of different things that you've achieved, and you weren't there for any of them.
- [12:55]
B
That's one of the saddest moments in life, too, because I've gone through the same thing where I've had beautiful moments. You know, people or friends are coming together to celebrate my birthday. And before I started meditating, you know, I'd look around all these people wanting to share, enjoy, and my mind is only thinking about the one person who's missing or, you know, why is X, Y, and Z not here? And it's like, dude, you missed it. You missed it. You missed literally the miracle of even having people who want to come up and show up for you. And to me, honestly, that was exhausting. And it was simultaneously sad but also empowering when. When I did start meditating, I did my first silent, tender retreat in July of 2012, and it hit me right off the bat how superficial all of my relationships were. Like, how superficial my relationship was with my. My wife, with my, you know, with my parents, with my friends. And I was like. But I noticed off the bat, I'm like, oh, it's because I'm highly disconnected from myself. I've spent years running away from my emotions. And as soon as I saw my emotions, I was like, oh, my gosh, I'M terribly disconnected.
- [14:03]
A
Yeah, yeah, A lot of us are. What do you say? Decapitated below the neck. Right. What is it that the last time that somebody that the guillotine was used actually wasn't that long ago, I don't think. If you look worldwide, obviously there's probably guillotines being used in war crimes across all sorts of different horrible places. But one that was officially used actually wasn't all that long ago. So you think, wow, you know, decapitation, how barbaric. And it's like, dude, you've done that emotionally to yourself since you were born.
- [14:31]
B
Yeah.
- [14:31]
A
And yeah, this problem of struggling to connect with other people after you've spent time working on yourself is an interesting challenge. I think. You know, the sorts of people that consume your stuff and you know, hopefully this show too, they're considered, they really, they're reflective, maybe they are a bit predisposed to low mood. And the reason that they're on this path is that they're trying to work out what's going on and they think, fuck, like if only I didn't have. If only I didn't have this thing holding me back, you know. And if you're behaviorally genetics pilled, it's part of your predisposition. If your attachment theory pilled, it's part of your upbringing. If you're, you know, trauma pilled, it's part of your first relationship, you know, wherever it is that you laid the feet. And it's a conglomeration of all of these things. A lot of people can kind of wish. And I catch myself doing this too. If only, you know, if only, if only, if only. If only. The raw materials, the ingredients that this dish that I am was made from. Look at all of the work that I need to do. Look at how hard I need to climb uphill to be able to overcome these particular pathologies that I didn't choose, that I didn't ask for, that was somehow like whatever the not gifted to me, like thrown at me. And there's all of this slime and I've got to wipe off all of this slime. And as you said, it's not a one time event. I've got to. You tell me I've got to do it again. Yeah, I did it perfectly today and you're telling me I've got to do it again. But, but I think that everybody can look, everybody, that, that resonates with this sense of unfairness, this sense of sort of additionally heavy burden. There is an unbelievable light side to this, which is your level of self insight is so much greater than the people who don't have to deal with that. And this isn't a that's better or worse, it just is. And when you think about how much pleasure do you take from knowing yourself truly, from being able to do this kind of self investigation, from the quality of your thoughts, being driven by this need to understand, not only this need to understand you, but this need to be able to sympathize and empathize and connect with other people on a much deeper level. When you ask someone, when I ask myself this question, I'm like, look, would you sacrifice that if it meant that you didn't have to? Like, is ignorance bliss, basically? And maybe this is stock, like psychological Stockholm syndrome or something that I'm like, I have to love my captor. I wouldn't, I don't think I'd take that deal. I think that I value too much the opportunity to really, to broaden out and fully, fully investigate everything that life's got to offer. And I also think that when you arrive at successes and conquests in that kind of a way, you know, deep ones, insights about yourself, connections with other people. When you arrive there and you did it through spit and sawdust and sweat and blood and tears, it feels really earned as opposed to somebody that just sort of stumbled on it, didn't know where it came from, and then kind of blew past it because they hadn't really worked out why it was there.
- [17:41]
B
Yeah, I mean, you literally end up building your piece brick by brick. And I love that you came to your own conclusion there. But it's like, ignorance is not bliss, dude. Ignorance is suffering. It's just what, I'm just going to be exhausted, stressed, full of tension, full of anxiety, always like missing the beautiful moment that's right in front of me. I don't want to live like that. I think that's one thing that's special about the time that we live in today is that, you know, being miserable is like going, it's going out of style. It feels like so many people are exhausted by, you know, like I grew up in a way where if you had a mental ailment or a physical ailment, you were just going to have to deal with it for the rest of your life. But I think so many people are looking at whatever it is that's ailing them, making life harder, and they're actively looking for solutions. And if there isn't one out there, they're building companies to find it. They're creating new science to do it. They're just like, no, let's find a way to live at a higher, more optimal level. I find that really inspiring. But, you know, even what you were saying before, it's making me remember that we live in a society that is trying to make everything easier for us. Every single aspect of you. Think about all the apps on your phone. They're all sort of designed to make life easier. So we live in this like uber doordash society. And you can't bring that mentality into your personal growth. You also can't bring that mentality into your relationship. So there's definitely skills that you can develop. But honestly, you have to build your peace brick by brick. And I think it's. I've noticed that over time, you know, like, I've done so many meditation retreats, I've probably meditated for over 12, 13,000 hours. And it's like, you know, maybe after five, 6,000 hours when I was like, okay, my mind is very different from how it was before. And it was literally like, you know, I'm training to live happier, to like, have more peace, to have more freedom. And it's the same way that you don't just run a marathon, you have to train for it. And you don't just like, learn a language. You know, you. You have to learn it over time. And I think that's one of the harder aspects of self development that people have to accept is that it's nice and slow and you gotta be there for the long journey and you know, and you know that something is good. Like, I remember after that first 10 day retreat, when I left, my mind felt undeniably lighter and. But only by like maybe 3%, but it was so noticeable to me because my mind felt so damn heavy before that. And that's why I was like, you know, I gotta go back. Because I don't even, I don't even really understand what I went through. I need to go learn more. And as I've gone, you know, I still feel the same set of, you know, same set of emotions like everybody else. But anxiety, sadness, these sort of heavier things, I feel them, but I don't grab them. I don't throw more fuel onto that fire. I don't make them bigger than they need to be. And, you know, I'm grateful that I put in the work because, like, it was hard, man, but, you know, I still have a long way to go.
- [20:44]
A
This episode is brought to you by the RP Hypertrophy app. This app has made a massive impact on my gains and enjoyment in going to the gym over the last year. It's designed by Dr. Mike Israel and comes with over 45 pre made training programs and more than 250 technique videos. It takes all the guesswork out of crafting the ideal lifting routine by literally spoon feeding you a step by step plan for every workout. It'll guide you through the exact sets, reps and weight to use and most importantly how to perfect your form so that every rep is optimized for maximum gains. It even adjusts every week based on your progress and there is a 30 day money back guarantee so you can buy it and train with it for 29 days and if you don't like it, they'll just give you your money back right now. You can get up to $50 off the RP Hypertrophy app by going to the link in the description below or heading to rpstrength.com ModernW using the code ModernWisdom at checkout. That's rpstrength.com ModernWisdom and Modern Wisdom at checkout There's a famous Instagram reel that gets shared pretty regularly. That might be a woman that's talking. She says no one is coming to save you. And it's kind of played as part of a alpha motivational idea of pick up the weight and carry it yourself. This is something that you need to do. This is an issue that you're going to have to face on and so forth. And I think in many ways, you know, it's like, it's cool and it's aggressive and it's lean in and it's you know, like high testosterone stuff. But the really, really difficult place that everybody needs to look at and that everybody needs to face is that when it comes to issues inside of your own mind, when it comes to boring, repetitive thought patterns, the way that you see yourself, the fact that you continue to show up in relationships in this way all the time and that you almost create this self fulfilling prophecy, you almost say, I think that this is the way that things are going to happen and I'm going to continue to push the buttons that seem to have caused it to happen before. Because I'm more concerned with proving myself right than breaking a negative pattern. I would sooner be miserable and correct than happy and incorrect. And I'm doing CBT for the first time. I don't know whether you've ever tried doing cognitive behavioral therapy, but it is, it's frankly a lot of fucking work. Like it's just really hard.
- [23:10]
B
Yeah.
- [23:10]
A
And it's not, you know, meditation. Yes. You do mindfulness throughout the day. Come back to the breath. You can notice. You can, you know, label, release and allow. You can do these things. But for the most part, a lot of the work happens on the cushion. Right. And you go, okay, here's my 10, 30, 60 for you. 120 minutes a day that I'm going to lock in and do this thing. CBT is like. Is like Japanese water torture for the mind. Because it's like, dude, if you could see the number of fucking reminders I've got on my phone. It's insane. Anybody that. If anybody was able to look at my phone throughout the day for the different triggers that I need to do, they'd be like, what the fuck is this? Like, why? Why does kick the bully appreciate, like, appear every 30 minutes throughout your day? And that's just one of a bunch of different triggers. And I'm like, okay, I'm going to commit. I'm going to try and work on this real hard. But my point being that no one is coming to save you is literally the most true place it's ever going to be true is when it comes to the inner landscape of your mind.
- [24:14]
B
Absolutely. And it's funny too, because, like, as soon as you said that, it made me think, like, no one's going to come save you, but there are going to be people that randomly appear that will inspire you, and they may even help you with whatever method it is that you're trying to learn. You know, like, I wasn't going to. I didn't just, like, teach myself meditating. Like, I went to a teacher, they taught me, they corrected me over time. It took me years to be able to, like, really, you know, make the actual practice of meditation much more efficient as opposed to, like, making it clunky. And, you know, does that. The mind doesn't want to observe the present moment. The mind is constantly trying to fight that. And it's really hard to just observe reality as it is. The mind is constantly trying to interject the past or the future onto that. And so it took a lot of teachers to, you know, for me, asking questions and corrections, but ultimately, who put in the effort? It was my own mind.
- [25:06]
A
No one's going to come and meditate for you, dude.
- [25:09]
B
No, no one. No one's going to give you their enlightenment. No one's going to transmit peace to you. Like, you know, you may have be around people who have great energy and are nonjudgmental. But those are very sort of temporary things. And I think it was. It was interesting. Like, I remember what. Before I started meditating, I. I did, you know, mushrooms a few times, tried acid a few times. And I found that these were almost like really pretty powerful, like, intellectual experiences where, like, I felt better. It felt better in my. In my, you know, my body and my mind was just like, connecting to all these different ideas. Um, but it felt like I was almost taking a peek at a new world and opening a window. But when I started meditating, it was like, dude, I cracked that window open and just put my legs right through. And I was walking in a whole new world. And even days later, you know, I was like, everything is shinier and brighter. Like, I literally remember, you know, after I'm, I think on like, day seven, day eight of the first course, and it still continues on now. I remember looking at a tree and being like, holy shit, I can see more branches and more leaves than I could before. Like, my mind wasn't even able to cognize at that level because it was so busy. And I think it was a shock over time how our senses and our. Literally all of our abilities are dulled by the tension that we unconsciously carry.
- [26:37]
A
You're rate limited by how much you're distracted 100%. And yeah, you're right, the brain can't do parallel processing. I'm sorry. Even for the people that think they're amazing, multitasking isn't a thing. You can just task switch really quickly. And yeah, you're right. You know, you think about. You'll remember this when you're reading and you're unmindfully reading. And this is such a funny one. You go through a page and you go. I know that I looked at each individual word and I probably kind of somehow vocalized them in my mind. And if you held a gun to my head and asked me to tell you anything that just happened on the page, I'm like, I have no. Like, how the fuck did I do this? I understand how I can watch a TV show and be distracted, but how did I say the words inside of my own mind?
- [27:22]
B
I know.
- [27:23]
A
And not take in any. I had to say it myself. And yeah, the. The interesting thing you said about being around friends, this is another thing I realized. The challenges of training the mind, whether it's through meditation or through CBT or through psychotherapy or through whatever, being around friends that eat healthily and regularly go for walks will probably result in you eating healthily and going for walks, or at least you're not going to be smoking as much. Or they, you know, there's sort of social influence in that way. They get up on time, they don't go out and party, they don't cheat on their partners. You know, all of these things. Many habits that people want to develop can be things that you imbibe, you sort of, you get, you absorb from being around people that also do those things. And being around people that are sort of thoughtful and mindful and peaceful and gentle and inquisitive and curious and loving, caring, fuck, like, yes, give me more of that. But ultimately, you being able to access that level of presence is only a you thing. So I do get the sense that kind of the final frontier for anyone that wants to do the, you know, Sigma male personal growth, Lone Ranger bullshit thing, anybody that really wants to do that. It's got nothing to do with what you can flex on your social media. It's got everything to do with what the texture of your own mind feels like.
- [28:51]
B
It definitely does. And, you know, and I'm not going to discount the power of, like, who we allow to influence us, like, because I've seen that work in multiple ways. Like, my wife and I, we both stopped drinking and just taking any intoxicants. It's been a number of years. It's been like, since 2016, since I last like, drank and smoked marijuana or did. Did anything right, like, taking zero intoxicants. And I've noticed over time, you know, not only did I have to, like, rebuild friendships because so much of friendship is pretty ritualistic. Like, you know, we come together, we spoke a joint, we come together, we have a drink. But I realized that, you know, my key friends, the ones that I've been friends with for years, they, after a few months, they really didn't care. They got over it pretty quickly. But there was an interesting dynamic where when my wife and I were, you know, we would go out to dinner with friends and whatnot, or be at a party. Like, one time we were talking, we're like, hey, are they drinking less than they normally do? Because we're, because they're around us. Like, are we, like, having some sort of, you know, un, unsaid thing? Like, we're not asking them not to drink, but just because we're around, they, like, totally slow down and we find some sort of balance. And like, the other end of that is that in 2020, my wife and I, we moved up to Western Massachusetts and this little town out here that's near the meditation center that we often go to. And out here there are so many people who have been meditating for decades. Like, people have been meditating way more than I have, you know, like 20,000, 30, 40, 50,000 hours of meditation, you know, been meditating for. For decades and decades. And these people are weapons. Like, their minds are just literally like, you would not believe how cultivated they are. And these are people who, they don't write books, they don't have Instagrams. They're just so, like, all they do is serve others. And they just, you know, they generate peace and they have simple lives and work, but they're such hardcore meditators. And being around these people has helped sort of fire up and like, give even more energy to that effort that I'm applying in my own mind. Because I'm around them and I'm like, shit, like, I want to be like this dude when I'm 70, you know, like, this, this guy's like, when I think about, like, you know, my teacher Barry, like, this guy is just like, he's 76, so unafraid of death, like, so kind, doesn't want to hurt anyone and anything, and is so simultaneously living in his power. Like, he is a leader and he's just like, you feel his peace move with him and he doesn't get caught up in other people's sort of like energetic troubles. And it's. It's awesome. So to me, I'm like, damn, I'm trying to be like this dude.
- [31:38]
A
What have you learned about the problem of struggling to connect with people? When you start to do personal growth? You know, some people come along for the ride, but if you've sat with your emotions, if you've started to do even kind of a modicum of self work, yeah, you can have a challenge to connect with people in the same way that you used to.
- [31:59]
B
Yeah, I think it's because you end up changing the play, you know, Like, I think normally when we have long term relationships or friendships, we sort of fall into this, like, rhythm of how we do things, the things we joke about. And when you start really applying the fact that identity is flexible, that your preferences can evolve, that you can change your emotional skill set and improve it, then that's going to, you know, it's going to directly impact the way that you behave and show up in interpersonal situations. Some people are taken aback. And I've noticed that, you know, like, I remember when I stopped, when I first stopped doing cocaine, like back in, like 2011, like, I used to Party all the time. And I remember this one guy, he was stressed that I stopped. He was like, just so, like, some. It was calling to him. And I remember he, like, screamed at me and was like, dude, stop being a bitch. Like, do you know, just like, do the line? And I'm like, some cocaine. Yeah. And I'm like, you know, haven't seen this guy since, like, he's. He's just like on the other side of the world. I don't even know where. I wish him the best and. And I can tell that it just. It wasn't really about me. It just. It scared him about himself. But I think when you start changing, yeah, some people are going to be absolutely repelled, but also new people are going to appear. I think it was at that same time that. That I ended up meeting one of my best friends, Anwar, who is just so dedicated to his personal growth and his fitness. And it was like, this is like the exact friend that I needed at that moment when I was trying to develop a healthier mind and a healthier body.
- [33:39]
A
Yeah, it's so funny. I did maybe 27, 28, probably. I stopped drinking for the first time, and I didn't drink that much, but every fortnight or so I'd send it. And that's like classic, classic club promoter drinker, right? Professional party boy, shit. And it's like, I. I just don't think that I'm gonna drink for six months. I'm gonna see what happens if I don't drink for six months. And something not too dissimilar happened, which was some people got spiky around it. Because I think, think if somebody starts to make a positive change, or even just any change, especially a positive change, it throws into sharp contrast the areas of your life where you're not behaving the way that you should do. You know, if you keep cheating on your missus every time that you go on a night out and someone gets into a new relationship and they're like, you know what it is, man? Like, I just really fucking love her. And I. Not only do I have no desire to cheat on her, I kind of don't really have that much desire to do anything else other than hang out with her. It's like, oh, fucking gay, dude. Come on. Like, what are you doing? And like, you know, because they. These people know. I think some people know deep down. And then you've got the other friends that are like, ah, sweet, man. I'm gonna go fuck this girl that isn't my girlfriend, like. And you know, that's a different category of. That's a different category of friend. But, yeah, the other side, that's super interesting. I think about this a lot. We like people who are easy to predict. I think we like people who feel reliable. Like, I know, don't worry about Diego. You know, he was with us on that one belief thing. He's going to be sweet when it comes to immigration, gun laws, taxation, you know, whatever, voting for the next election, whatever it is, I don't need to worry about him. But if somebody shows the capacity for surprising change, this includes a partner as well. If a partner is able to change themselves, you don't have that much control over them. They're kind of their own agent. Yeah, they're a little bit wild and free. And if they're able to change something that feels kind of fundamental about, you know, that the. The way that emotionally disturbing events impact them, they're able to change. Oh, my God. Like that. You know, it's really fundamental to them. What if that means that they change the way that they feel about me?
- [36:10]
B
Right.
- [36:11]
A
There's this fear of abandonment. There's this lack of predictability. And then when it comes to friendships and stuff, too, we want someone that is just there for the ride. We know that they're going to be good. It's kind of like a loyalty test, right? Not changing yourself too much is kind of like a show of fealty. It's flying this banner above your head that says, I'm with you even if I don't want to be with you, or even if I shouldn't be with you. But if somebody shows that if the shouldn't is stronger than the should, they're actually going to fuck off. They're going to change themselves.
- [36:49]
B
Yeah. And I would even take it a little step further where the ego. It craves for those nearest us to have the same values and the same opinions. Like, there's. It feels. It feels challenging because sometimes it sort of will trigger this response where it's like, it feels like we might be left out of the herd or like someone in the tribe is like, separating too far out of the tribe and you want to bring them in. And. And you notice that often, like, you know, with your sort of very close friend groups, generally, there's very similar views that people will have. And it takes a pretty strong individual to, like, you know, develop a connection with someone who has very just, like, totally different views on things. And I think that makes it really hard because you have to work with the universe. Instead of against it. And this universe that we live in, at the atomic level, the biological level, the cosmological level, everything is just flowing change. We live in this giant river of change that only flows forward. What does that mean for our personal identities? That means that we are beings of change. That means that what my preferences, my likes, my dislikes, my beliefs, what they were five years ago, they're not going to be the same right now. They're going to evolve. And hopefully they evolve because if I try to remain static, what that means is I'm trying to flow against the universe and that's just going to hurt, right? So you have to adapt, you have to have flexibility, you have to allow yourself to learn new things so that your perspectives can keep evolving. And that is challenging for friendships and for connections because I have no control over what my, my wife believes in. She's the most important person in the world to me, but her beliefs are her owns to to create because like her mind is hers.
- [38:38]
A
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- [39:58]
B
Way that you absolutely, absolutely These two.
- [40:00]
A
Things are in conflict.
- [40:03]
B
They totally are, but I don't care. I think about this all the time. I'm like, you know, I have all these different people that I work with. I've been really fortunate. I'm releasing my fifth book. And so, you know, I have agents that I work with, different people that I sign contracts with, publishers and whatnot. And I never allow myself to be rushed into decisions. I never sort of, you know, I do my best to only say yes to what feels right and what I can actually do, as opposed to just doing what other people want me to do. And to be able to do that, it requires me moving slowly, moving intentionally. So, you know, if you don't get a text from me immediately, it's because, like, I'm living my life, you know, give me some time to think. And I think it's. It's hard, but I. That's the challenge that you need to take if you really want to, you know, embrace your own power. And this, like, this world is moving absurdly fast. Like, we move so fast. And you see this a lot with, you know, when things happen politically where one person puts up a story and they're like, this is what's happening. This is my view. And then you don't read anything about it. And then immediately you put up the same view, same idea, when you haven't even looked at what the situation is. So I. I'm the perfect example is I went to this meditation retreat. I was gone for 45 days, totally silent, had. Didn't have my computer, didn't have my cell phone. During that time, the Ukraine war started. And when I was. When I finished the retreat, I came back out, I went on Twitter and I was like, hey, just came back from a 45 day retreat. What did I miss? And people were like, don't look at the news. Like, you know, it's gonna ruin your piece, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, oh, shit. Like, I have no idea what happened. So I'm looking around and then I look, I go on Instagram and I see all these intense stories, you know, people, pro war people against war people, this, that, that. And I'm like, I have no idea. And then people are asking me, what do you think? I'm like, I have no idea what I think. I just, literally just got here. I need to go take some time to read some articles, make sure that they're from places that are not biased, that are, you know, so I can try to develop my own view on the situation. But I Think that that moment, like, honestly was really helpful to be like, I, I don't need to just say what the herd is saying because I'm afraid of being left out.
- [42:26]
A
You also don't need to keep up to date. There's this beautiful idea which you'll be familiar with called Signal vs Noise. And is the information that you're taking in something that's actually worthwhile and going to stick about for a long amount of time, or is it kind of just fluff within the system? And a perfect example of this would be, you mentioned the S and P earlier on. You could be long, the S and P, and you could check the price of it every single day for an entire year. Within that, there is a fucking ton of noise, intraday trading, all of the movement of the price. Oh my God, this week it's up this much, this week it's down this much. And you're assuming that you're not totally detached emotionally. You're gonna get ragged around at the mercy of the market. It's gonna say, today you should feel good, yes, tomorrow you should feel bad. A lot of noise, not that much signal. If you checked it once a year, you're like, huh. I can assume pretty reliably that most of the information I'm getting is a lot of signal right across the space of a year. Cause it can look at the entire, all of the little wobbles, ups and downs, and you can see, oh my God, that was the week that Covid happened. Look at the 20 point drop, 20% drop in the. It came back up and it did the rest of the thing. It's like, yeah, so that is signal as opposed to noise. And I feel like daily news is just that. It's like it's ripping your emotional state around in the same way. Actually going back to what we spoke about the very beginning. This sort of very effective prison guard, mean prison guard slash torturer that you've got inside of your own mind. Say that you had a really miserable day three weeks ago on Wednesday, and there was something you were real worried about. And you know that you had a sad day. If you knew that you had a sad day and you hadn't journaled about it, could you tell me why you were sad? Probably not. It was just all noise. It was you ruminating about a thing that you were worried would happen but didn't ever happen. And after you imagined the thing that wasn't going to happen would happen, you can't even recall the fact that you were fucking worried about it. Like that is, that is actually kind of like a definition of insanity. You know, it's this weird version of sort of suffering schizophrenia where you inside of your own mind create this entire landscape of problem and challenge.
- [44:48]
B
Yeah.
- [44:49]
A
That in retrospect you couldn't even recall. But you know, the time's gone. That Wednesday, three Wednesdays ago, that Wednesday was lost. That Wednesday was lost to this thought that you can't even recall in the future.
- [45:02]
B
It's so funny because like you remember how you felt, right. You remember how you felt in your body and you remember that it wasn't a good day. But the contents of it, they're totally superfluous. They're, they're not important. And I think it's, it doesn't surprise me because this is such a common human experience. But one of the most popular posts that I've written was something along the lines like maturity is not trusting your mind when your mood is low and not doing any sort of self assessment when your mood is low and it's understanding that like when the, when the mind is feeling a lot of sadness, a lot of heaviness and it's just full of self doubt, then of course it's going to point the attention back to you and you're going to start doing all this nonsense self analysis that has no value because you're like, I'm so bad at this, I'm so bad at that. I'm, you know, I'm terrible. I'm not a good person. And it's like you have to totally learn to just not pay attention in these moments. Because yes, there are of course, times when you should do self analysis. And usually those times are in moments when your mind is a little more balanced, when you can tell yourself what you're good at and what you're not good at. But if you're just beating yourself down, then there's no point. There's no, there's no, you know, you can't listen to that nonsense. And another thing, you know, like you, we talk about repetition a lot, but that takes a lot of repetition for you to recognize, ooh, my mind is throwing around a bunch of nonsense right now. Let me not grab it. I'm going to treat myself gently and I'm going to try to move around the day, you know, pretty calmly.
- [46:33]
A
It's the same reason that you should never go shopping when you're hungry.
- [46:36]
B
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's tricky. It's hard because like the mind is always like. And I've noticed this tendency a lot where emotions will try to expand themselves. You know, whether it's joy, you know, we will share that joy with others and we want to like, you know, treat other people kindly. But it's the same thing when we're angry. Like we invite others to join us in our anger when either by saying something that gets them upset or by just telling them like, oh, this happened to me and that happened to me and. And you'll notice that your friend will slowly, over time, get angry with you and the emotion will keep building and growing. We also do the same thing in our own minds. You know, I have this. There was this beautiful moment in our relationship where my wife was working in this room here and I was working in the kitchen. And we were apart for like two, three hours, both working on our laptops. And she comes into the room laughing. And I was like, hey, what's up? She's like, I just spent the last three hours trying to figure out how to this tension in my mind is your fault. And she's like, I just kept going backwards and further and further back in time to figure out how this is your fault. And she's like, and it's not. It has nothing to do with you. I just don't feel good today. And I'm like, wow, that's. I mean, for one, thank you because you saved me from an argument. But also, you know, that's real wisdom right there.
- [47:57]
A
What a beautiful level of self awareness, dude. You know, to have someone that's gonna sit with the thing and investigate it and investigate it and investigate it and then go, yeah, this is a me thing. This is a me thing. Yeah. One of my friends, George, keeps texting me different times when you should never trust your thoughts.
- [48:14]
B
Nice.
- [48:15]
A
So maybe it's Rousseau that said never trust a thought that you have indoors that basically you should always be on a walk. When you have a thought, never trust the thought you have when you're on less than six hours sleep is probably another one. Never trust a thought that you have when you're hungry. Never trust the thought that you have after 10pm at night. You know, there's kind of actually, when you think about it, it's a very small window of time and scenarios in which you should trust your thoughts.
- [48:41]
B
Yeah, yeah. You know, it's, it's. I've been noticing more and more lately that I try to lean in on like the three internal guides which are your values, your intuition and your nervous system. You know, so I'm. When I'm trying to make like big Decisions. I have a set of values, right? Probably the most important one is like, I don't want to hurt myself and I don't want to hurt other people. So that's like a key framework that I try to exist inside of. And then the other end is like, is my intuition pushing me towards this direction? Does that, does this feel correct? And the other side of that is with, with your nervous system is like, am I already so overworked that I feel fried? Like, do I feel fried already? And if I add this, is it going to make things worse or better? And using those three guides, I think has been super helpful because like I said before, thoughts are flimsy. I don't give them a lot of credence. They're not, they're not very, you know, stable. But I think with, you know, intuition hasn't really led me astray. It's really been it. And it's not like it's not a. An often thing. It's not like something that, you know, it's not telling you left or right. It's just, it will come slowly, especially with big chapters. Like, it'll help open up new chapters and in my life. And I'm glad I've been able to listen.
- [49:57]
A
Where does self love come from, in your opinion?
- [50:01]
B
I think it just, it comes from embracing the fact that there's a lot inside of you. I think self love is literally just turning that lens inward and you having deep, deep acceptance over your emotional history. You know, the good things that have happened, the tough things that have happened, you're sort of cognizant of it, you're aware of it, you're able to hold that history inside of yourself. And you're simultaneously saying, okay, I've felt a lot of pain in the past, I'm very imperfect, but I'm going to choose to start developing qualities that are going to help me make better decisions in life. So it's a mixture of self acceptance and embracing personal transformation. And I think it just, it comes from what we were talking about earlier. It's just people just exhausted by being miserable. You know, it felt like, like when I was growing up in the 90s, it didn't feel very emotionally hopeful. If I were to say, it was just like, you're kind of stuck. Whatever your situation is, is what you have. And I think part of the reason that this wellness movement has exploded is that people are like, I need to figure out how to be happier. And part of that it's been interesting is figuring out, okay, I need to spend more attention on myself and try to cultivate myself, but that immediately that personal inner work shines a light on what you can do better in your relationships.
- [51:23]
A
Is there a relationship between that and enoughness, this sort of desire to not feel like there's something missing, to feel whole?
- [51:36]
B
I think so, yeah. I mean it's tricky too because like you want to be able to accept yourself and part of self love is like that deep self acceptance. But human beings also, we like a project. I think we, you know, whether it's work or outside of work or personal or hobby, whatever it is, like we like having things to do. And I think a lot of us, when we notice how much of life is relational and interpersonal, it shines a light on the fact that it's worth your time to put effort into like, you know, improving whatever it is that's making your life harder. Because like you're the maker of your own suffering by large. So understanding like where am I creating points of difficulty for myself and what can I do to remove them? But it's, you have to balance that out because you're simultaneously enough and you also have room to grow.
- [52:28]
A
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- [54:24]
B
Yeah. I'm so glad you brought that up. That's so cool. My goodness. So one of the initial translations of dukkha, this is a poly word that's really important in the. In the Buddhist teaching, it was initially translated as misery or suffering. And that sounds so intense. It sounds like super.
- [54:46]
A
Not dialed right.
- [54:47]
B
It's. And it's. And I think that's the reality for some people, for sure. You know, their lives have been horribly difficult and they would, you know, if they were to give it a word, they would give it suffering. I think for a lot of us, it's on the other end of the spectrum where dukkha can also be translated into stress or dissatisfaction, where, you know, instead of saying life is suffering, it's like life is dissatisfactory or life is stressful. And that I can definitely relate to. You know, there's definitely been parts of life that have been full of suffering, but I think the vast majority of the time there is that sense of dissatisfaction. And like, being aware of that has been so helpful because you can live in a life where, you know, you can have it. The type of life where a lot of things just don't work out for you and it's a constant struggle and you could recognize that as dissatisfactory. But then there's also the times when things do go well for you and you do accrue victory after victory, but you're still incredibly dissatisfied. You're still looking to build another business, you're looking to do, you know, your next big thing, and you're just appreciating nothing. So that's another type of suffering. And I think being aware of that helps create the beginning of peace, really. Because when you understand how the mind is geared towards dissatisfaction, when you're able to relieve those attachments and you make the mind Lighter. What you end up getting are what's called the Brahma viharas, where it's just the divine abodes, where you get so much more equanimity, so much more loving kindness, so much more compassion and joy for the happiness of others, which is like, you know, one of the key elements of friendship, like, to be able to, you know, have victories. Like. Like one of our mutual friends, like Sahil Bloom, right. He was telling me how, you know, he had a great time talking with you, and then I was just talking into talking him to. With him today, and we were celebrating that he was on the New York Times bestseller again. And, you know, we were like, myself and our other friend, Sarah Kubrick, we were like, both in the chat room, and it was like we felt so much joy for this guy. No jealousy, just pure joy. Like, he worked so hard for this victory, and we're celebrating him. And I think those. Those things are hard to have without recognizing first that life has this dissatisfying quality. But if you put right effort into it, then you can relieve that tension so that you can have these different types of joy, different types of peace.
- [57:19]
A
Yeah, the I. The first time I ever learned about that was in Robert Wright's why Buddhism Is True.
- [57:25]
B
Oh, yeah, he cr. He crashed with that book. That's so good. Fuck.
- [57:29]
A
I mean, look, evolutionary psychology meets mindfulness for me is like, yeah, so just realizing that most things are kind of designed to be a little bit shitter than you thought that they were going to be. The orgasm is going to last less long. The holiday is going to be more complicated. The cocktail's not going to be quite as cold. You know, the gym routines just. You're going to be two reps short. And I guess there's two areas, right? So there's one, which is, what's the story that you tell yourself about what happened and what is the thing that you're making happen? So you have your stimulus, you have whatever the thing is that you're relating to. That's environment, design. That's ensuring that you do you want what you want to want, and you go after the things that you actually want. So the sort of intentionalism approach. And then the other side is okay. Even in the midst of something, which is a little bit dissatisfying. How can I try and reframe this? And that's where, you know, the CBT side of stuff that I'm currently really interested in is super fucking powerful. Because you're training yourself, at least currently. What I'm trying to do. I'm training myself on a daily basis to find all of the things that are good, to try and find, like, arbitrary, stupid, small things that. And then you realize, hey, these things are there for me to enjoy, like the front and center of consciousness. So I kind of had this idea. I wonder if you agree with this. Sam Harris has a thought that all that we're ever trying to do is give our minds a good enough reason to be here in the present moment. And a lot of the time, we do that through base jumping and skydiving and rock concerts and achievements and new cars and sex and drugs and all of the things that we do. And we're trying to raise the level of stimulus to the point where we can't do anything but be in the moment. Paul Bloom talks about this. He spoke to a dominatrix for one of his books, and she used this line, nothing catches attention like a whip. And, you know, if you've just been slapped across the face by a chick wearing, you know, tricep high leather gloves, there's not much going on in your mind for five seconds. The same thing goes for elite sporting events, fighting in a ring. You know, all of these things just give us a good enough reason to be there in the present moment. And I've kind of had it in my mind for a while that the goal, as far as I can see it, of the mindful person should be to try and lower the bar of external stimulus that you need in order to excuse yourself to be here in the present moment that you want to try and be able to do it. Naval. If you won't be present with a coffee, you can't be present on a yacht. Quote. Yeah, just. Okay, I want to try and get myself to the stage where the smallest thing. It was a really lovely gust of wind that was, yeah, refreshing. Like, I really enjoyed that gust of wind. And how. How fortunate I am that I'm here walking in. In. In this good weather or this bad weather, but I'm still here walking. And that gust of wind was, like, really nice. And how great that I, you know, I got up early today and I, you know, like, yeah, sure, I got stuck in a little bit of traffic, but how great that I, you know, I got to listen to that song that I love on the radio. I got to, you know, like, you're chipping away at this negativity by. You're chipping away at duka, right? You're just eroding it away over and over and over. And this is where Again, everyone's new shiny toy is the fucking coolest thing that they play with. So I'm kind of cautious of being fully cbt pilled about everything. But I do get the sense that there is a place for more effortful, more lean in, more kind of crafting. This is Rick Hansen's hardwiring happiness approach. This is sort of. I get the sense that there's a real place for that. That, at least for me, my meditation was a great foundation for. But it's been a good springboard on top of that, that utilizing the. The ability to have the mind be nice and clear and then come in over the top and actually actively notice things that go out of your way to. To almost like lean in. It feels aggressive. It feels like action oriented. Whereas a lot of the time I think that meditation feels a little bit more kind of sit back. It's not necessarily passive, but it's, you know, things that you like, let be, let go, let in. Like this stuff is sort of flowing through you a little bit. And yeah, just that sense that there is always something pretty much that you can find in the present moment that's pretty good. And trying to get yourself to this stage where you don't need to be on stage in front of three and a half thousand people. You don't need to have just won an award. You don't need to have just watched your first child be born.
- [62:21]
B
There's this element that's clear in all of the examples that you gave where human beings are sensation oriented, where we crave pleasant sensations. That's why we're trying to, like, heightened what you were mentioning, you know, to bring ourselves to the present moment. And because we're really craving and seeking after these moments of deep, deep pleasure. Literally like the feeling of pleasure in the body, that can manifest as a lot of different ways. And that's the thing that we get attached to is like we. We crave the things that feel good literally at the level of sensations, and we hate the things that don't feel good at the level of sensations. When the Buddha was meditating, what he realized is that his way to freedom was not only in the body, but was through the level of experiencing sensations and being able to be fully observant and to see them as they are. And part of that was bringing in the element of equanimity, the element of mental balance where you're not reacting to something, you're just observing it as it is. And I think from. From the deepest inside out, it's almost you Become a lot more successful when you can develop that sense of equanimity with all of your sensations. When you're able to just like feel, you know, you feel something painful and you're like, okay, that's painful, but you're not necessarily reacting to it. And the same thing with, you know, the things that are super pleasurable and it's quite powerful man. Like, you know, when, when I go away to the longer retreats, like we're essentially cultivating that level of equanimity with anything that we feel. And the mind gets so heightened, it gets so powerful over time. Especially if you spend, you know, we, these longer 45 day retreats. You spend 15 days being aware of the breath and taking that ability to concentrate to a whole nother level. And then you take the last 30 days where you, you take that concentration and turn it away from the breath but into the body. And it turns the mind into like a canon where you can feel the body at a level that's just so more oriented to ultimate truth. Because your hands and your, you know, the rest of your body, it doesn't feel like it's solid. It feels like it's just changing vibrations that are moving at a credit and you know, at incredibly rapid speeds. And I think having those experiences has been really helpful in the moments where you're, you're a little more sensitive in a positive way where you can just like feel, you know, the breeze that you were talking about. You can feel, you know, a friend having their hand on your back and everything just becomes shinier and more vibrant. But you're also a lot less attached to it because you understand that all these things are highly impermanent and is there's so many, you know, because a lot of the things I'm, I'm curious about your sort of meditation background because there are different forms of vipassana from the Theravada Buddhist background. And you know, there's so many different styles of meditating. But some of the vipassanas are a lot, a little more mind and thought oriented and others are more feeling oriented where it's like you're just directly going into the body.
- [65:31]
A
Yeah, yeah, I would say probably more thought oriented. It's, it's Shinzen Jung's five ways to know yourself, which you'll probably be familiar with. I really like that because it was, it's the most rational, procedural would be a good way to put it sort of approach to meditation. Right. You see, hear, feel, clarity, equanimity, whatever. The fucking third One is consistency, whatever it is, anyway, just having a framework that you can follow quite easily and that you can step through. I had a really great Brian Maniscalco. I used to work with this guy one on one during COVID and before that time. And you know, I do these check ins and I'd have little notes. You could even export your insight time and notes after a session. So that was cool and you know, be like a little training course. But yeah, it's the opportunity to actually be able to just experience life without this mental chatter in the back of your mind is really great. And I'm aware that for everybody that doesn't meditate or thinks that meditation is hokey, this is just like two people that believe in ghosts talking about how there's fucking ghosts everywhere.
- [66:46]
B
You know what's funny is I think people do feel like that. I think meditation has a ways to grow in the culture. But a lot of these traditions, with Chen, Zen Young, with Goenka, with Joseph Go, you know, like all these different traditions that are out there with Jack Kornfield, a lot of it is really result oriented and it's really based in like regular mundane life. You know, it's not like some like spiritual esoteric thing that's way out there. It's more so based on like what qualities you need to cultivate. Because honestly, really like when I go to retreats, it's just a mental gym. It's literally like you're going to the gym, you're building awareness, you're building equanimity, you're building compassion and. And then your life changes after that. But I'm, I'm always like, I mean that's one of the reasons why I was so. I felt at home when I got there into the meditation hall because you know, there were people there who were like doctors and consultants and people who like, I don't know, people who had big jobs, small jobs, teachers, professors, students. It was all of these, you know, regular people and you're being given a teaching that isn't trying to like convert you into Buddhism or anything like that. So like, I don't think of myself as a Buddhist, but I do have a high respect for the Buddhist teaching. Like I, I personally believe the Buddha understood the human mind better than anyone else in human history and. But you know, I don't need to like convert into a religion to like make use of that teaching.
- [68:16]
A
Yeah, dude, I appreciate the heck out of you. I love what you talk about online. I think everybody needs to follow your Instagram. We came on here to talk about your new book and we got so distracted talking about meditation, we haven't had chance. So why don't we, why don't we run this back? Why don't we do another episode within the next couple of weeks and we can talk about love, what it is, what it isn't. Problem of struggling to connect all of that attachment stuff. But it was so great to get to talk about this with you. And like I say at the very beginning, I really, really love and increasingly I'm finding myself being drawn to people that just see the human condition the way it is. And I think you're definitely one of them. So people need to check out new book you everything that you do online. Where should they go?
- [68:54]
B
They can come on Instagram. Youngpueblo Y U N G P U E B L O also on substack and my new book how to love Better which is basically a bridge between personal growth and new harmony and relationships. You can find that in bookstores, on Amazon, wherever, you know, wherever books are. But thank you man. This has been a real, real joy. I feel like we can just keep wrapping on.
- [69:19]
A
Well, we will do. I'll see you very soon. I appreciate you man.
- [69:22]
B
Awesome. Thank you.
- [69:25]
A
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