← Modern Wisdom
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- [00:00]
A
Episode 5. You are getting into the upper stratosphere of repeat guests now.
- [00:06]
B
I love that next one we'll have to do in person. I'll buy you a beer.
- [00:09]
A
I'm down. I'm down. All right, young men, if you choose the wrong woman, you are sacrificing your goals for a life spent managing her problems that she refuses to fix. The right woman will augment your life goals. She'll be a jet engine strapped to your back that pushes you ahead even faster.
- [00:26]
B
I've been teaching men this lately. I got a new course out about marriage. You are supposed to be the CEO in a relationship, life, family that you're building. You need to pick a woman who's an appropriate coo, operations officer who's going to work with you, a co executive. You don't need a woman that's lagging behind, that's dragging at you, that you can't get to the office to work. And you also don't want to have her take the lead over you because she'll resent you. You need to work together like co executives and when you do, then there is nothing on this planet that will drive you faster to success than that good woman.
- [00:58]
A
What does choosing the wrong woman look like? You're sacrificing your goals for a life spent managing her problems that she refuses to fix.
- [01:08]
B
A lot of guys lately. I know, Chris, you've heard this. A lot of guys complain that women have no accountability. I say that women who are living in a state of chronic terror and their sympathetic nervous system is activated and they're alone, they're in a heightened survival state. They're designed to try to push off responsibility for survival. That's a woman who's in a very insecurely attached state. When a woman's in a calm, securely attached state, she focuses instead on her long term life goals and her ethics and principles to get her there. These are the women that we record through history of having been incredible drivers of love, success, growth, everything. A securely attached woman is what a man needs to be looking for, nothing less.
- [01:48]
A
That sounds a lot like a bidirectional problem that the woman doesn't feel safe because she's not being made to feel safe. So in some ways it's not just choosing. I suppose choosing the wrong woman sounds like there is something wrong with them. But I guess in built into this is if you choose an incompatible woman, she becomes the wrong woman. Is that a fair way to frame it?
- [02:13]
B
It is. It is. The man does have responsibility. The masculine. Our job is to provide four levels of safety if you want to get into that. For women, we need to provide safety at four levels but the woman needs to be able to receive safet. And in our world right now, we're not training women to receive safety at all. They stay feeling unsafe even if the man is adequately providing those levels of safety for her.
- [02:34]
A
Dig into that safety thing for me.
- [02:36]
B
Yeah, absolutely. A man provides safety in four degrees. One is physical safety. Yes. Safety from our ancestors, saber toothed tigers, rival tribes, even safety from yourself. Be physically safe. Two is resource safety. Ancestors, hunter gatherers. That means food, meat. Today it could mean finances. She might be contributing, but if a problem rises, he's going to spearhead that and tackle it first. Number three is emotional safety. She knows that if she shares a problem with him like an operations officer should, that he's going to receive it graciously, listen respectfully, ask questions and then solve the problem. She doesn't have to tiptoe on eggshells. He's not going to blow up. So he's emotionally disciplined. Most men with attachment issues, they fail this third degree right here because they're afraid of commitment, they're afraid of getting scammed, they're afraid of whatever. So they never really lean into a relationship and they always leave her hanging. And the fourth is bond bonding safety. He has to be biochemically bonded to her and be displaying the right signs of being biochemically bonded through oxytocin and vasopressin. This is why women are tracking for romance, affection, warmth, emotional connection. To know that you're not going to leave her in the middle of the desert, she needs to know that you're with her. Those are the four levels of safety we must provide. Now a lot of women can't trust any of those four levels of safety because we've got four generations of women now taught don't trust men, they fail you, they let you down, they check out, they hurt you. So that's part of the problem. Men need to be providing but women need to be able to receive.
- [04:03]
A
Yeah. And I guess that that is choosing the right woman and for women as well, choosing the right man that you can have a pairing which in a different relationship with a different partner would be secure, would feel safe, would be regulated. But this particular oil and water mixture just doesn't want to go together.
- [04:24]
B
No. And we are seeing that among Gen Z, 65% of them now are insecurely attached, leaving only about 35% securely attached. And the rate of personality disorders, part of that has risen from 10% to about 20%. So we're definitely going in the wrong direction. Men and women are not connecting because they can't form a human bond to each other. Instead they're forming an emotion focused bond of how do I feel instead of what are we achieving, what are we building, what are we growing, how do we operate as co executives in a co created life together? It's how do I feel right now at this moment and what do I need to do to feel better in five seconds? That's a lot of the relationships we're seeing.
- [05:02]
A
It seems like that's a lot more short term.
- [05:05]
B
It is, they're focused on the short term survival. It's a sympathetic nervous system activation that's really causing the issue. And it's a chronic trauma from infancy. And that's really when we talk about attachment issues. What it is, you are traumatized as an infant. You don't recognize it because it's not what you would consider trauma now. But your trauma is focused around relationships and that activates your prefrontal cortex differently. People with avoidant attachment style, it overgrows to squash their emotional expression and bonding and anxiously attached people, it under develops and so they never learn that they can actually self regulate. They demand that other people self regulate for them, but they believe that they're operating in a deficit because no one will ever love them. So then they overperform in relationships expecting co regulation as payment. So that's what we've got running around right now. And that's why when you get on the dating apps, the avoidantly attached people who look the best are the ones ruling the dating apps. And everybody else is left in the lurch because they're all playing this insecurely attached feelings based game. The securely attached people are self segregated out into a completely different cluster. And they're dating and marrying successfully and having children successfully. But their pool is dwindling as society is continuing to break down.
- [06:13]
A
Yeah, you had a fucking slamming take on this. Modern dating is what happens when the estimated 35% of securely attached people get married young and leave the pool. And the other 65% of insecurely attached people try to figure out how to manipulate each other into shared stimulation.
- [06:30]
B
That's the problem. Honestly, that's the problem. That's what I've dedicated my life to fixing is doing that. So when I got a coaching client that comes in, he goes, Adam, I'm for 45, I've never been able to marry successfully. I don't know what I'm doing what's the purpose in my life, right? He's hitting. He's hitting the second mountain state, as David Brooks would call it. And he doesn't know what to do with his life. He's got all this money. He's succeeding everywhere except romance. I show him. Okay, what is a human relationship supposed to be? What does it do for you? Biochemically? A lot of them freak out when they start hearing about how high performing men are dying young, losing their testosterone and losing everything that they've built because they don't know how to build relationships because their receptors are actually blocked for the oxytocin. So we can get into that if you ever want to, but that's. That's. That's what's killing a lot of the highest performing men today is. Is not being able to receive the oxytocin bonding that they need from their partner. So then they say, what does a woman even bring to the table? Because we no longer have a concept of soft, intimate connection.
- [07:26]
A
Yeah. What's happening with oxytocin in modern men?
- [07:29]
B
Oh, most modern men don't get physical contact after the age of 12, if. If they even get it up to the age of 12. So they only get it through sexual intimacy with a partner. Now, avoidantly attach up the bulk of attachment issues. Okay, Avoidant attachment says, I don't trust other humans, to be fair or reasonable to me, they're going to hurt me. It comes from overwhelming, arbitrary expectations in childhood. Critical parents, divorce, blah, blah, blah. So these avoidant men activate into a sympathetic nervous system and never come out. They can't go to their parasympathetic rest and digest mode. They can't have a peace mode. They are always in war, in war and stress mode. So they're always conquering. But you see them thrive. And this is a biological adaptation for our species to thrive in bad, dangerous environments. These men activate, they start building things. Everyone else joins under their umbrella. They're the employers, they're the leaders. They grow society. But the cost is that their oxytocin receptors block. They get closed off because of that sympathetic nervous system activation. Now, as this happens, they cannot form sentimental, warm, affectionate bonds with people, and they can't receive that. Now, oxytocin is crucial because you have to use it to synthesize gaba, which suppresses cortisol release. So GABA shuts down your cortisol and loved. I'm cared for. I'm in a tribe of brothers. We look at Iceland, they have a great saying on this bear is the back of a brotherless man. This is a man whose back is always bare, so he's always watching his front and his back and can never relax. So he is never, ever, ever able to come out of stress mode. He is always active. But that means that he can't use GABA to synthesize melatonin to sleep at night, okay? His oxytocin doesn't allow that because it's so low. He has chronic pain, he doesn't sleep well at night, so he's not generating serotonin. So his mood is low. He's in a depressed state. He doesn't recognize. He's not only redlining, but probably black lining much of the time and stressed out. His testosterone, about 30 to 35, begins to diminish. He has erectile dysfunction about 30 to 35, he is only able to form relationships romantically and sexually based on novelty dopamine, which dies five to seven months into a relationship. And then it just becomes relentless duty without pleasure or payoff. And then about 40, 45, he begins having high risk of cancer, heart attack and stroke. But he has formed an immense business. He's fed other people's families, he's taken care of people. But when he goes home at night, all he does is drink alcohol and wish that he had somebody there to take care of him and be with him. So this is the highest performing men in across society, on every continent.
- [10:00]
A
These are the ones that everybody looks up to.
- [10:03]
B
Yes, and we should. They have great traits, but the problem is not that they're jerks. We give them these bad things, but they're actually usually wonderful people. The problem is that they don't understand that they're missing oxytocin, that, that warm, sentimental connection. They don't know that they're missing it. So they're going around looking for this thing that they know must be there, this peace, this connection. They tell women, I just want peace, but they can never find it because they can't click out of that mode into parasympathetic. So when we show them that, it changes everything for them. And suddenly it's like the end of Christmas Carol when Scrooge like learns what love is and then he just returns an abundance of love to other people. The research is wonderful on this. A group that connects to an avoidant man successfully and he connects to them. They both benefit because he continues to be very vigilant and watch over them. But now he is owning that and caring for them and protective. So they gain from his sensors, and they gain from his awareness and carefulness, and he gains that love and intimacy and extends his lifespan by about five to about 10 to 15 years. And then his quality of life improves for his entire lifespan. So if we can get these men reintegrated, we all benefit. That's. That's the purpose here.
- [11:16]
A
I wonder how much of this is. It's very difficult, especially in an atomized world where most people spend most of their time on their own or their communication with other people is mediated through the Internet or through more shallow, more formal conversations, stuff that happens at work. I wonder whether the kinds of guys who are constructed to be able to be hyper successful, hyper vigilant, insecure overachievers, they get rewarded from the world by being successful in the only way that anybody else can detect, which is outwardly inner peace is unfortunately not something that you can flex very well on an Instagram post and you can't cash it in to go on holiday to the Bahamas with it. And it doesn't look very good on a resume. And your friends are usually not all that impressed by it unless you've got super awesome friends. And I get the sense that meritocracy, capitalism, I'm as fucking capitalistic and ruthless as you can find. But it does create some pretty perverse incentives because it causes people to prioritize things that are instrumental goods, not ultimate goods. Right? Like an instrumental good of achieving money or gaining status or whatever is only useful in as much as it makes your life better, inasmuch as it makes you happier. And a lot of guys are choosing to live a worse life in order to make money when they already live a sufficiently good lifestyle. And what they're missing is something that can't be purchased with more money. So it's this sort of vicious cycle of advertising. It's kind of like, I don't know, the emperor's new clothes, but everybody is the emperor and nobody's telling them, hey, man, I think that you'd actually probably be better off if you just chilled out a bit and, and went to try and find some friends that you could hang out with or got some hobbies that weren't just working or found a partner that wasn't only six months into a relationship with you and then you cycle her out.
- [13:20]
B
I fully agree with you. That's what all of them are looking for. They have a sense that something's wrong. They know something's missing, but they've never really experienced it because their oxytocin receptors have been blocked since Childhood since the. Before the formation of emotions and feeling. And their brain overdevelops to prevent that emotional expression so they can't really experience it. When, when you sit down with one of these guys and you talk to them about their personal experiences, they over intellectualize everything as a barrier against their emotions and they don't know they're doing it. So you have to really go at them and they have to really be convinced that something's wrong. So they'll sit with the emotion for a while. When someone else comes to them with emotions. When a girlfriend or a lover says, hey, I really care about you and I don't understand why we're so distant now it's seven months, we should be closer and she's crying. His mirroring neurons activate in his brain and he feels her her emotions, but without context and not knowing how to regulate them because he's not used to feeling emotions. So it overwhelms him and he starts backing off, which she perceives as abandonment. So she chases. And he gets more scared and more wary because he says, I'm getting nothing from this relationship and your expectations have gone up. I'm about to get trapped. So he pulls away further and that creates that cycle. It's not that these men don't want connection. They do more than anything on the planet. They don't know how to get it in a way that they won't feel exploited or endangered. And they don't know what it feels like. So it's this idea. That's why they keep chasing. Six months, six months, six months. They have all these women in their life, but they never really connect with them because it's just never clicking. They're waiting for the day it will somehow click. So they go to seminars, they go to retreats, they study chemistry, they study games, they study everything to try to learn how to activate this feeling they should have. They start to think, well, maybe I'm a sociopath. It's all that survival mechanism that's clicked on until they. Until they learn how to regulate their nervous system and come down until they learn that there even is a second mode that they could click into. And then they have to not be afraid to click into it because they're afraid of getting killed. If they click out of survival mode because it's kept them safe, they click into peace mode. They feel it with somebody. It has to be a safe human being who's secure enough that they won't backstab him or ruin his life with emotions. And then they feel it and immerse with it. Then something amazing happens. Because the male and female systems, our nervous systems, are actually meant to integrate symbiotically. The female nervous system needs safety to maintain a high levels of fertility, bonding, peace, generation of all the nutrients, a child will need care. And then as she receives oxytocin, it becomes contagious. She's compelled to give affection and kindness to those around her. That's that feminine mode on the TikTok parlance is being in my feminine. But for her to activate that, a man has to be providing those four levels of safety and he has to integrate with her. Then the male goes out into stress mode, hunts, fights, kills, gets resources, comes back, and as he does, he lets go of stress mode and integrates with her calm nervous system. As he does, she integrates with him and she pulls him into his parasympathetic nervous system. That rest and digest mode. Guys like us, we have to practice martial arts in a cave for 20 years to learn how to get there on our own. Or we could just let a woman who loves us help us pull into that. And as we do, if our oxytocin receptors open, she floods us with it. Oxytocin goes up, gaba goes up, serotonin goes up, testosterone goes up, human growth hormone goes up, Everything massively improves. And this is why all across the earth, all the cultures say feminine is healing. It's because she's literally healing your body through your biochemical makeup up. But only when you can integrate successfully, Only when you can be receptive to her. She has to be receptive to you. You're receptive to her. We build this together. So I'll leave that there. You go ahead.
- [17:06]
A
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- [18:29]
B
What do you think of that one? First I want to hear your thoughts on that one.
- [18:32]
A
I think it's interesting that I certainly see among some of the most charismatic and highest bravado guys that talk about dating a very strong anxious foundation that this stuff is growing out of. And it does seem you couldn't even put your finger on it. Where is that coming from? What is it that you're seeing? I don't know. I just get the sense that this isn't sat on a secure foundation, that it's not sort of a firm, securely attached person who is emotionally regulated. But it's not always some classic avoidant attachment guy who just just doesn't want to get any sense of care or belonging or validation from other people, the world at large, and specifically women. Because if that was the case, I don't think they would be spending so much time trying to decode what the fuck women want. So yeah, there's this odd longing masked with a kind of brittle fragility of a stern exterior and kind of all of this gets gets wrapped up together. Obviously there's great dating advice. People like yourself, Tucker Max was fucking fantastic. Jeffrey Miller I think is wonderful. Fuck. Mark Manson wrote a book on dating that was his first ever book before he did the subtle art. And there's lots of guys that are new that are coming up too. But there is definitely an archetype and I think you hit the nail on the head by saying the Internet encourages anxiously attached men to act avoidantly attached instead.
- [20:13]
B
Well, yeah, I fully agree with that. One thing I see is a lot of those guys, I've known a lot of those guys or I know people who are close people to them, many of them, unfortunately, grew up with a mother who had personality disorder, usually borderline personality disorder, and their first girlfriend was borderline personality disorder, or their wife was and just gutted him. Now, when you grow up with a mother who has a personality disorder, you usually don't just get anxious, attachment, or avoidant. Usually you get the blend of the two. The disorganized style, where you are anxious and crave connection, but you also hate and fear it at the same time. So you control other people through manipulation tactics. So those guys usually go out there and they're craving to learn what women want to please them, but also as a mechanism to stay safe and get control. So then what they do is they go out and they teach guys who are anxiously attached and nervous and terrified how to pretend to be more in control so that then all they can do is pull in very anxiously attached women who crave validation, women who don't feel safe but want to and will do anything, jump through. Through any hoop on the planet just to please him. And that's what those guys learn. But then the guys feel bad about it. Most of my clients come in and say, adam, I was Red Pill for a while. All right, let's untrain you from that. They feel bad later for the way they've executed relationships, and they actually want a healthier bond. So it's borderline personality disorder, Mothers crafting disorganized sons who go out and proselytize about controlling women, because women are just horrible animals that will hurt you because that's what they understand. And then the guys who are anxiously attached, who can't get any woman to pay attention to them, using that material to try to get attention. That's the large portion of what Red Pill is doing, and it's building a lot more pain and a lot more agony for both sides. It's not just women that are suffering. It's men and women.
- [21:51]
A
It's an interesting one, man. The assurance of protection privately by the removal of risk publicly, if that makes sense. This sort of retreat into yourself, this lack of openness that everybody's felt before. There is a moment in everyone's relationship where you need to kind of make the decision, okay, am I actually going to open my heart to this person? And that. It's a funny analogy, I guess, to use, because it kind of does feel like that. It kind of feels like spreading your chest open and allowing. Allowing this person to have access to a softer part of you. And if you've got fear around doing that, that naturally, or if it's been something that you've tried before and you've ended up being burned. I understand why people don't want to do it, both men and women, you know, and, and this is the MGTOW or kind of the FEMCEL going their own way crowd. And I, I fully understand it. I can completely get why someone that's been emotionally damaged from doing what they thought was the right thing would take the lesson from this. Not that I chose the wrong person or that that was just bad luck, but that the world is unsafe and if I do that again, it's going to hurt me and it's maybe going to destroy me this time. So I get it. But yeah, there's, there's a particular like, category of advice giver on the Internet.
- [23:28]
B
That.
- [23:30]
A
That I think is, is really misguided. It's one thing to kind of swear off being emotionally attuned and open. It's quite another thing to do that yourself and then convince others to do the same as well. And yeah, I, I don't know. I, I really hope, I really hope that those people can kind of be fixed or saved in some way because fuck, it would make life a lot easier, I think, for everybody else too, if the people that were giving advice were happy and securely attached and positive sum and abundance minded. With regards to this stuff, I think.
- [24:09]
B
We are growing past it. Can I share something that's not even really. I mean, it's to this topic, but it's probably a little different than the tweets you were reading.
- [24:18]
A
Yeah. Fire away. Yeah. Yeah. Come on.
- [24:20]
B
Yeah. Okay. I think that we're in a change of masculinity. I think that World War I, World War II over here in America, the Dust bowl, the Great Depression, I think all the wars that we've thrown men into. I think we lost so many men and it's documented, we've lost generations of men. I think a lot of men checked out. I think that masculinity actually died in the West America, Western Europe. I think it died and I think men were running. I'm thinking of like the Glass Menagerie as a play that was written. It shows men like checking out and then other men checking out on top of that because it's just too overwhelming. I'm thinking of Ernest Hemingway and all of those, those lost men. Masculinity died. Women had to step forward and become the men for quite a while. Generations of women are carrying down that information of don't trust men because they'll let you down. I think masculine was reborn like a phoenix. But it was a baby little hatchling. And women protected it, nurtured it, but they did the only thing they know how, which is to smother it with love and affection, hoping it will grow up into the person they want it to be. But women can't train men. Men. Now, I think we've got generations of men raised in fledgling masculinity who didn't know how to be men. Not really. And then I think around the 90s to maybe the first 2000s, we saw a blip of masculinity emerging into the teenage years. Now, over the last, let's say, 10, 15 years, we've been in a very juvenile masculine phase. The 15 year old. I'll do whatever I want. Look at my guns. I got nine Bugattis, I got all these hot girls. I can sleep with anyone I want. And we're seeing this angry, you can't tell me what to do sort of masculinity, and I think that's where Red pill has fit in, is a bunch of men trying to reclaim from. In from childhood, trying to claim territory as juveniles, but not knowing what masculinity is supposed to be. Masculinity is the embracing of responsibility, but only after you've crafted full personal sovereignty. So I think that was them trying to get full personal sovereignty, pushing off mom, so to speak, the nanny state of women and clearing space to be men. And now that we've known that we can, a lot of men are tired of it. You and I both are tired of it because we've been in it for 10, 15 years. We've seen them doing it. I think we're emerging into a mature masculine, like you listed. There's a bunch of men giving real dating advice, real marriage advice, family advice now, and there is a rising crop of that. I think we're seeing a rebirth of mature masculine in the West. That's my theory that I'm working with. So, so far, what do you think?
- [26:47]
A
Yeah, I. It's a multipolar problem, mate. Because the Internet's such a big place that for every culture, there's a counterculture and a subculture within that one. And then there's a splinter faction that's taken off on one side and they actually completely recant all of the things that this other group said. I don't think that we've reached critical mass or escape velocity. Masculinity, escape velocity for giving good advice to men. But if you know where to look and if you're sufficiently discerning, I think it's pretty easy to find good advice advice. And by good advice I mean well balanced, well meaning things that make both your life and the world around you a better place when you leave it. That, that seems to be like a. I know a rough rubric for that, like that. One other element I guess is there's a lot of elements of male behavior that are pretty scary, especially to women. And this is behavior from boys and behavior from men as well. Aggression, dominance, desire for conquer, mastery, drive, all of these things. And I wonder whether one of the solutions that was put forward, I certainly know that this is in a lot of therapy speak and a lot of sort of online conversation is if only you acted less like a man and acted more like a woman, all of your problems would be fixed. Your main problem, male in front of me, is that you're being masculine. You're being too masculine. If only you were opening up about your emotions more, if only you were more sensitive, if only you were less concerned with dominance and competition and prestige and status and improvement and conquer and stuff like that, you'd be fine. All of your problems would go away. And it's not going to land particularly well when you basically say your main issue is your nature, like your inbuilt innate source code is a problem. And if you can get rid of that and behave more like the group that has had a really phenomenal run. I mean fuck, if you were, if you were going to invest into a penny stock, the entire female sex in sort of the 1960s, 1970s was like buying Bitcoin at 5 cent. Fucking phenomenal investment. Right Socioeconomically, crushing it by pretty much every single metric. Just a huge boon. The same thing hadn't happened for guys. And I wonder whether part of the increasingly single female household raiser of young boys would say, well, like the girls are doing all right, maybe maybe try and be more like them. Maybe behave in the manner that the stock that had the real good bull run for five decades behaved and you too will be liberated from whatever challenges you're facing.
- [29:40]
B
I love this and I agree with a lot of it. I will counter with this. This is very interesting. The research is clear now in America that the women are not actually doing very well. One quarter of American women is now on some sort of psych med. They're reporting massive depression rates. They're reporting increasingly crushing anxiety every single day. The loneliness rates for women has actually gone up to 2/3 of all women report incredibly overwhelming anxiety and loneline this every single day. So they are crushing it. Interestingly, like households, women own more households than men do. But what's fascinating, and I've had my ear to the ground on this. I'm sure you have had too. Tik Tok Instagram. You're seeing this flooding movement of women now starting to become resentful of having to be masculine, and they're actually begging for a resurgence of masculinity. They don't quite know what that means, and they kind of want it on their terms. But a lot of them are moving towards who is supposed to be doing this, why am I doing this? Right. We see books like Marry him and Be Submissive is a really famous book that I think she tried to ban in Spain, if I remember right. We see the rise of women like Margarita Nazarenko, a creator who's talking about how women can be more feminine. She's teaching from an Eastern European standpoint. We're seeing a lot of women trying to be feminine and call men to be more masculine. Again, I agree with you. I think they're scared of what that means, but I think some of them are embracing it. And I'm curious going forward what that's going to look like. Because manhood shines best when the world is scarier than the men who are protecting you from the world. So we need the world to be scary in a number of ways. And it is. It's artificially not scary. Right now, it's just a weird bubble we've crafted around women to make them feel safe. But when that bubble is starting to erode and it's going to pop, I think very soon we need to have a crop of men ready, not to take one for the team, but to do what men are supposed to do so we can be fulfilled. And I believe by doing so that women will also step in and be fulfilled. I don't think all of them. I think many people are going to go through a horrible meat grinder, male and female. But I do believe that there is a positive outcome on the other side of this for those that want to learn how to actually form proper human connections between male and female.
- [31:50]
A
Validation is meaningless to men without accomplishment. Men crave validation, but getting it without earning it through hard work and success leads to a hollow sense of self worth and deep insecurity. This sort of validation instead feels like pity to them.
- [32:04]
B
Chris, if. I mean, you're. You're an incredibly accomplished man. You've got like one of the biggest podcasts in the entire world. The other day, someone was asking me who I Am. And I was listing some of the people I've talked to that are big names, and they're like, who? And I said, oh, I was on Chris Williamson's podcast. Oh, Chris, I love Chris. You're a very accomplished man.
- [32:21]
A
Game recognizes game, as they say.
- [32:23]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, let's pretend for a moment that you hadn't grown the way that you had, but people continued to treat you the way you you are treated today. They continue to say, hey, well done, Chris. You know, you got three. Three people listening to that podcast. You've been going for 10 years. It's going great, man. Three people like, woo. Your mom's like, patting you on the head, like, good job, boy. You know, would. How would you feel if that was the case, if you knew you weren't thriving and people were still trying to cheer you on?
- [32:51]
A
Yeah, it'd be very hollow. Very hollow.
- [32:53]
B
It's exhausting. It's empty. In fact, it's shameful to us men. We actually experience pain in our brain. Emotional pain, social pain, and personal pain. It burns us on the inside and releases cortisol and it causes a response that says, I'm not doing enough and I'm angry. Our brain actually in the back, goes to the back to observe a problem and then forward to act upon it. If we can't get there, we stop halfway, we grind, and we start getting depressed. So then if someone comes along and says, hey, you're doing good, it's okay, everything's good, you're gonna get there, you know, it's good, man. I'm proud of you already. Just because you're still doing it, we start to get angry at ourself that we are failing. And we feel like a child. We feel like back in our hunter gatherer tribe, we feel like we are failing the tribe and all we're doing is eating resources and contributing nothing. And that begins a cycle of shame from men. We don't want validation. We want answers. We want solutions. We want to be building. We need power. Power not to dominate other humans, but power to dominate circumstances. When we have that, we know we are contributing to tribe. We know that we are fulfilling purpose. That's where we thrive. Without that, validation is painful. It's not just meaningless, it's painful.
- [34:07]
A
In other news, this episode is brought to you by Function. Did you know that your annual physical only screens for around 20 biomarkers, which leaves a ton of gaps when it comes to understanding your health. Which is why I partnered with Function. They run lab tests twice a year. That monitor over 100 biomarkers. They even screen for 50 types of cancer at stage one. And then they've got a team of expert physicians that take the data, put it into a simple dashboard and give you actionable recommendations to improve your health and lifespan. They track everything from your heart health to your hormone levels and your thyroid function. Getting your blood work drawn and analyzed like this would usually cost thousands. But with function it is only $499. And for the first thousand modern wisdom lists listeners, you get a hundred dollars off, making it only 399 bucks. So right now you can get the exact same blood panels that I get and save a hundred dollars by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com modernwisdom that's functionhealth.com modernwisdom it's kind of like a proof of work or a push for legitimacy, right? Like it's the same justification, I think for why people say that participation trophies in schools don't work. That if everybody wins, then nobody wins. And it kind of derogates the, the concept of winning. Like what, what, what does that even mean? What does it mean to win if everybody wins? And what does it mean to be validated and to be praised for your accomplishments if it happens, regardless of what you accomplished and how well you did.
- [35:37]
B
Did it, it means nothing even to children. What we've done is we've traded short term dopamine releases to make people feel good for long term serotonin releases and, and vasopressin releases from solving problems together. Dopamine for all the biochemicals we are supposed to be getting. I've got five kids, Chris, five kids. Two of them are sons.
- [35:58]
A
Pumping them out at the moment.
- [35:59]
B
I'm, I'm trying, man. My wife and I are going, she's Irish, so it was bound to happen. But the, the way I raise my kids is not. Good job, you know, you tried. No, it's hey, yes. Good for putting in the effort. Next time. Here's some things that you can do. I'm going to show you how to do it and you're going to pump, you're going to thrive. I'm proud of you for working hard. Let's keep going until you get it. And when they get it, the release for them is so much higher and it's, it's a massive high five. You did it. You got it. What's the next thing you want to learn to conquer? What's the next skill you want to grow and not just my sons are thriving with that, but my daughter. They are problem solving. They don't get stuck like other kids do and say, oh, I don't know what to do. It's so hard. They look at it. They might get frustrated. I say, cool, how are we going to solve this? And they get right back into it because they're trained for that. And then they thrive afterward. First thing they do is bring it to me and show me with the biggest smile on their face. And I like, I am so proud of you for continuing and striving and going. That's how we need to raise our children. We're not. Not. We're not raising perpetual children. We're mentoring adults. And we need to take that responsibility very seriously.
- [37:08]
A
What's the validation feels like pity element.
- [37:14]
B
For my sons?
- [37:15]
A
No. That if you get validation without earning it through hard work. That men feel like the validation is pity rather than a genuine sense of sort of renown and recognition.
- [37:29]
B
If. If you are simply being rewarded for being there and showing up, but you have no accomplishments. And that's really the side of it. If you have no accomplishments and if you're stuck, then the validation makes you feel like an imposter or it makes you feel like you're being just fed by the tribe when you're not providing anything.
- [37:48]
A
Oh, you're not contributing. You're a charity case. We need to give you this because you're not worthy of. You can't stand on your own two feet. Therefore we need to provide it for you.
- [37:57]
B
One of the biggest, biggest, biggest reasons that men commit suicide later on in life is when they feel like a charity case or a burden to the people around them. That's usually what pushes a lot of older men into taking their own life. It's because they don't want to be a burden. They would rather walk off into the forest and let wolves eat them than continue to drain the resources of the tribe. We men are very. We're built for that. So the empty validation with no accomplishments is one. One of the worst things for us on the planet. We feel like a child. We feel like a charity case. We feel like a burden.
- [38:27]
A
Not a vicious cycle, though, right? Because for guys who don't have any, and women, too, but we're talking about men who don't have any successes or contributions worthy of praise derived from accomplishment. They're in a bind because if you try and can lead them with the carrot first, it sounds like pity and they feel like a charity case. And if you try and tell Them to pick themselves up by their bootstraps. It sounds like you're being insensitive to the challenges that they're facing. And you know, this is kind of the vicious cycle of things going well or things going badly. Everybody knows what it's like to have a period where, I don't know, you just got this Midas touch. Everything you do just happens to be perfect and you're getting up on time and going to sleep and all of your projects are going great and your friendships are fantastic and your health's on point. And then everyone knows what it's like to have a six month period where you just get repeatedly kicked in the nuts. You know, I, I, I honestly shouldn't drive a car because I feel like this thing's gonna fucking explode as well. Everything that I do seems to turn to shit. And the turn to shit crowd, it can last for a long time and they can feel like sort of there's no help coming for them and it's really hard. Like, how do you, what's the intervention for those people who are kind of down on their luck, you want to provide this positive ideal that they can reach for whilst not denying the challenges that they're facing and not making them feel this undue pressure to go and try and achieve something which right now, at this moment, they've never been less capable of achieving because they've just. Their nuts are two dimensional because of how many times they've been kicked over the last couple of months.
- [40:18]
B
I hear you. I think that the solution is what our ancestors would have been doing, which is that no man is meant to operate solo. Men are not meant to operate that. We're meant to operate in clusters of men working together in a tribe. I'm thinking tribes, gangs, groups, whatever it is. I don't think that a man operating solo is the answer. In fact, I think that's our problem. We men have disconnected from the male network that's supposed to be thriving all around us. Think of it this way. Male networks from past to present have been a constant stream of solutions, data, information and understanding that transcends time and space. Every man everywhere feeds information across the network to get solutions. It's the reason that you can wear a shirt that some other man invented. It's the reason you and I know calculus or trigonometry. It's the reason I understand attachment theory from a guy who created it 80 years ago, way before I was born. It's so many pieces that have fed across time and space to us. Now the Male network is shattered. There's so many men, like data nodes, just blinking alone in the darkness, disconnected from the network. Reintegrating that network is the answer. Because when a man is stuck, what he needs to be able to do is go to other men who have done it, who have thrived, who have opportunities, who have resources, who have power. Men who can integrate with him not as a charity case, but. But as a shared bonding structure to achieve our goals together, unparalleled, or in Paris, tandem. So it's unifying the male network so that we can thrive together again. The answer to male loneliness, male depression and male stuckness is not feminine intervention, it's masculine intervention. We ourselves need to save us. And you don't bootstrap him, and you don't pat him on the back and say, you're a good boy. And you don't say, go get your job done, son. You're failing. You say, let's find you a man who has solved this. Let's integrate you with him. He'll mentor you. We'll guide you. We do expect you to put in the effort. Effort. You will go through a training period. Here's where you're at. By the end of it, you will be strong. It is on you to find the drive, but we're not going to let you quit. And then you push him and eventually he pushes himself. That's how men get through those portions. It's other men, and we don't have that right now.
- [42:27]
A
Yeah, I think, you know a big part of probably the Internet space that I inhabit and the Rogans, Petersons, Hubermans, Jocker Willinks of the world. I think, you know, at least for me, toward the end of my 20s, that very much was the surrogate patriarch that I needed to. Okay, well, maybe you should tell the truth a little bit more. And maybe you should stop sleeping around. And maybe it is good for you to actually consider whether or not you're making the world a better place. And maybe you need to think about other people as opposed to just yourself. And perhaps money and status aren't the only things that are worthwhile pursuits. You go, oh, my God. In retrospect, you think, how fucking retarded did you need to be? That that was a genius insight, that world changing insight. And I get it right, Okay. I was a late bloomer mentally. My prefrontal cortex was particularly slow. It was on satellite delay. But arriving there, at least at some point is pretty good. But, yeah, I get the sense that for a lot of people, the Podcasts and Reddit threads and substack blogs and authors and thinkers on X that they follow follow are in many ways giving them some version of a role model. But obviously that's a double edged sword because there is a vacuum for role models and they can suck in all variety of both good and bad and positive and negative influences. And from the outside, especially, as we said before, if the only way that you're operating is okay, okay, objective metrics of success, outward shows of easily displayable accomplishments, of what people are able to advertise most easily, well, that means that all of the shit that you probably care about the most, which is ultimately everything, comes back to your emotional state in any case, because you want the status so you feel good, you want the money so you feel good, you want the girl so you feel good. Like so, okay, we're focusing on feeling good good. But if you sacrifice feeling good in order to try and achieve this thing, or you make yourself ill, or you damage your sense of self worth and self esteem, or you've lied so much that you don't know who you are anymore, or you don't have any friends because you fucked everybody over, or you've spent so much time focusing on yourself that you've been too selfish to cultivate a network and now you don't know how to relate to anybody. All of these things. Yeah, well, you've sacrificed the thing you wanted, which was feeling good for the thing, which was supposed to get it, which was successful success. And yeah, this sort of roundabout vacuum of male role models means that a simple answer that is easily advertisable is always going to be more sexy, it's going to be more seductive and that is branding an advertising problem that is a, you know, a messaging issue because the be slightly more complex, slightly more hard. And not hard as in you just need to work hard, but hard as in you need to open yourself up and you need to be able to face difficult emotions and you need to be able to regulate yourself and you're going to have to take responsibility for things that's really fucking ugly. It's way uglier than find a high paying job and just go until your eyes bleed. You'll be fine, bro. That's like a much easier, that's a much easier solution, but one that I think ultimately is going to lead lead guides to like beyond a place that they want to get to. They'll get to a place they want to get to and then they'll continue to just smash straight through it and end up on the other side.
- [46:02]
B
I agree with that. I do. I think that men also though crave the intimacy of other male brotherhood. The reason that we have buddy cop movies, right, where they hate each other and then grow to love each other. The reason that military movies about forces move, special forces teams and stuff working together other, the way we see Band of Brothers and video games are teaching you to connect with other men and form that military group. The reason for that is male connection is vital to our well being, biochemically, reproductively, everything. We need other men to thrive and work and live. When my male client, exactly like you explained, my male clients come in feeling like that I'm at the top of my game and I've never been more miserable. What do I do? I'll just keep working, right? I'll work twice as many hours instead of 90 hours. I'll figure out how to work 180 hours. And they just overwork to death because it's all that's ever worked. But when we sit them down and say, okay, we're going to build you male friendships that actually matter and we're going to put women aside for a while, build male connections, even just friends. True trusted male brothers. That changes everything for them. So again, I think the answer here first is men. Men need to connect to men and remember how to be men together. What did, okay, when they built Rome, they got together all the outcast men, men who were thriving on their own alone, but pulled in the exiles, the unwanted, avoidantly attached men. They built a society. Then they formed brotherhood and agreement and identity. And only then were they ready to integrate and bring women into their group. Because they said we need women in our group for, for society, but also to build something meaningful. Otherwise it's a bunch of dudes just like sitting here and squatting in buildings. So let's bring the feminine in. Now that we've created safety instructions, I think that's what society is doing right now is we are building a new Rome, but digitally, globally. Men are connecting from outcasts and we are forming a new identity in society. But it has to be a meet to meet, shake hands, punch each other in the shoulder. Maybe you fight a little bit and then you become buddies. But it has to be that integrated male brotherhood again to build masculine connection so that we can then provide it for ourselves, but also for the women. And that's what women are waiting for. I believe the healthier women are waiting for that we men need to build it for ourselves, not for them, them, but so that we can be thriving. And that requires secure attachment. It requires being able to understand that men even want that from you. Most men don't think other men want them as a friend, but meanwhile, most men are dying for a friend. So building that. I think it's going to be everything going forward, Chris. I really do.
- [48:31]
A
The bad boy archetype persists because women are drawn to men who don't easily submit or bend to their will. In the modern age, these men are almost entirely avoidantly attached, meaning the masculine men available to women. Women are also emotionally closed off.
- [48:46]
B
More of what I'm talking about right there. Masculine men have that juvenile, juvenile masculinity. So when the securely attached men wander off with securely attached women, what's left is anxiously attached men who women friend zone immediately because his testosterone is way too low and he's going to give in to raiders or anybody and just sell her off immediately so he doesn't get hurt. And avoidantly attached men who have the appearance of masculinity but ultimately fail emotional discipline. Discipline because he doesn't emotionally bond with others and he's collapsing into his fear of relationships. That trauma that he hasn't actually healed. There's good reasons for men to not trust modern relationship structures. I get that. But not knowing how to correctly integrate with a woman and not thinking you're getting anything from a male female bonding, that's a problem. So those men have not built themselves appropriately. Instead they keep everyone at arm's length and then women are just aiming at them because he's the most masculine man she's ever seen. They're seeking safety and stability from the masculine, masculine. It's just proof of what we're talking about here today. As much as women may say that they are feminists, they are seeking masculine stability. And the more that we can provide that for them, the healthier we're going to see them become on their side. And that's good for us. We will be thriving.
- [49:57]
A
Well, there's the opposite side as well. Right, so you've got this other take. Men who constantly seek validation or approval are seen as weak and unattractive. This is why nice guys with anxious attachment style are instantly friend zoned by any woman they meet. The friend zone is almost exclusively caused by an anxious attachment style in a man. Women pity these men look down on them as children and also fear their secret expectations and emotional instability. That's a recipe for biological rejection.
- [50:24]
B
And it is. A woman doesn't want to be the man in the relationship. While you play the role of the supplicating woman who's hoping that you get validated. Women don't want a man who is less masculine than they are because it means she has to go into a non optimized state. Women can temporarily enter a masculine state, but it shreds their fertil, destroys their brain, destroys their organs, destroys everything in their body and they die much earlier. We're seeing a rise of cancer for women being in that group. Their stress levels are not meant to go out and stress and then come home and go out and stress and live in constant stress and take care of you. They build resentment. Previously they were willing to take that on, now they're not. Increasingly since COVID really, it just obliterated that. Sure, I'll just be endlessly stressed every single day. Now it's, why isn't someone taking care of me? Why isn't someone, someone protecting me who's not doing their job? And we're seeing that call to action. Anxiously attached men do not do that job. They wait to be told what to do. They wait on the sidelines. They hope someone will make them feel safe. They're trying to get safe. It's very hard to respect a man who is begging everyone around him to help him feel safe instead of picking up his spear and going out into the wilderness and hunting, growing, building, and then providing safety for others. I've explained this to my wife when we were much, much younger. And I remember she thought about it, she took it in, she said, wow, it sucks to be the man. And I said, well. I said, well, yeah, in some ways it sucks to be the man. It's her, it's scary. And nobody's coming to rescue you. Maybe your brothers if you form a connection. But yes, it does. And there's a tremendous payoff for us. When we see our family thriving, we grow our legacy. We're loved and cared for. The paycheck we receive is love, care, intimacy, nurturing and all of that. You know, you have taken care of us. Thank you. But them growing, them boosting, seeing them rise above you, that's our paycheck, right? It's a very thankless job for us, and it's supposed to be biochemically. But what we get in return usually is the love and caring, nurturing from a devoted woman. That's one thing that is missing in modern day as well.
- [52:28]
A
Despite modern culture pushing for softer, more emotionally expressive men, women overwhelmingly choose masculine men who exhibit strength and assertiveness. A woman will take a masculine jerk over a nice guy every Time right there.
- [52:41]
B
I mean I said it myself right there. And that's it. Women, all of us are living in a collapsed society that we feel it's just that our machines are keeping and our systems are keeping us running. We are already collapsed socially and we are adapted to that. Until we fix that, we're not going to get better.
- [52:59]
A
Yeah, you had this other take just a little bit of a pivot away from masculinity for a second and I think this is so fucking true. I must have sent this to like 5 people earlier on here today, your life does not need to be made easier, it needs to be simpler. Your system is designed to handle stress and challenge, but not complication. Fuck. Dude, that is so on the money. That's so correct. It's very similar to a take that me and Alex had a couple of years ago, which is there's no such thing as being overworked, only under rested. And the same here. That there's no such thing as a life which is too hard, only one which is too complex. And yeah, your life does not need to be made easier, it needs to be made simpler. Is fucking great.
- [53:39]
B
Thank you. And it's true, we are very simple creatures with very simple needs. Now we're trying to meet our needs in the wrong way. When we just go back, we understand what our needs are, we take care of them, suddenly we thrive. I love, you're not overworked, you're under arrested. That's absolutely 100%. Men are designed to face terror and pain and agony every day. Our ancestors face so much worse than we could even comprehend right now. It's that our lives are so complicated, it feels unlivable. When you streamline and simplify and you have a tribe, a cluster, a securely attached group of friends, family and partner who's doing that with you and everybody's simplifying, everything gets so much easier. So much easier.
- [54:22]
A
In other news, I've been lifting weights for about 15 years now. And this year has been the most progress I've made since my noob gains. And almost all of that can be laid at the feet of Dr. Mike Israel and his team at RP strength. The RP Hypertrophy app takes all of the guesswork out of crafting an ideal lifting routine. It literally spoon feeds you a step by step plan for every workout, including the sets, the reps, what weights to use and it automatically adjusts every single week based on your progress. And if you're still unsure, they've got a 30 day money back guarantee. So you can buy it and train with it for 29 days and if you do not like it they will give you your money back. It has definitely worked for me. My progress this year has been wild and it's due to nothing else really than sticking to an actual evidence based, science backed plan. And you can do that too. You can follow the exact same training plan that I have and get up to $50 off the RP Hypertrophy app by going to the link in the description below or heading to rpstrength.com ModernWisdom and using the code ModernWisdom at checkout. That's rpstrength.com ModernWiry and ModernWisdom at checkout. What what do you think are the areas of complication that are kind of hiding in people's lives that they could quite easily try to ratchet down a little bit?
- [55:36]
B
Mostly it's just the places where we don't know something's missing. The knowledge gaps. Right how what do women want from me? And then you make it endlessly complicated and none of it's right for women. It's what do men want from me? Endlessly complicated, miserable, and you're guessing. The biggest problem for humans is the times we spend guessing and then throwing useless energy down the drainage brain. It's getting again the mail solution network. It's getting the answers and then applying them properly. That right there is 90% of the work. The other 10% is just kind of weeding out the time vampires that you're not supposed to be doing things that are inefficient. But if you can understand how systems work, suddenly everything becomes very streamlined because say, oh, I'll just do that and click, done. If you understand what a woman wants, you can do it. And all of a sudden you have your pick of parts partners for women. Same thing. You understand what men actually want from you and you provide it. Men are lining up to marry you at that point. It's Dating gets simple when you understand the system. Life gets simple when you understand all the systems. It's just systems within systems. That's all it is.
- [56:41]
A
Yeah, I think you can kind of see this in doctor's visits, that the number one thing a patient doesn't want to hear from a doctor is we don't know what's wrong with you. And kind of the equivalent issue that you have here is there is a problem and I don't know how to fix it. I don't know how to get myself out of this challenge. So it really is a skill issue in many ways, or I guess a knowledge issue that you then develop and turn into a skill issue. But yeah, there's definitely an insight around. Human happiness is only really only able to emerge in the absence of uncertainty or in the presence of certainty. If you're uncertain about what's going to happen, about how your actions are going to affect your environment and your future, if you don't know what tomorrow holds, if things seem chaotic and changeable and out of your control, I think it's almost impossible to feel happy because, well, how do you know that tomorrow is going to be worthy of happiness? Whereas if you feel like, okay, I'm capable, I'm competent, the challenges that life throw at me, I'm able to deal with well, even if tomorrow is a little bit more chaotic, I've probably got the answer to it. And again, it comes back to this spiral down and spiral up, that competence begets more competence and fragility begets more fragility because each time you get kicked in the nuts and it hurts, you think, ah, fuck like that. I really hope that doesn't happen again again. As opposed to if you manage to dodge it a couple of times or you learn how to avoid it, think, ah, actually I think I can probably deal with that. And you get better at commanding your environment.
- [58:18]
B
Yes. I was talking to Mo Gadot recently. He's the former CEO of Google X and he has a book out called Solve for Happy the Equation of Actual Human Happiness. And in it he says that your reality has to align with your expectations or your expectations need to be a little bit lower even than reality. So then you're fully happy because your expectations, expectations are exceeded. Now to do that you have to have a reality that actually is livable to you. And many men are living in a reality that feels unlivable because they don't know what to do to to achieve a livable, sustainable reality. For example, they don't know how to find a partner and date successfully. Most men want one wife, two kids, little house and a steady job. That's mostly what they're looking for and that's denied to many men nowadays, or they don't know how to reach it. But their expectations, even that reality, is below the minimal human expect. So they have to be empowered, and I hate that word, but it's useful here today. They have to at least be empowered by the men in their life to build the skills and knowledge they need to reach reasonable expectations. And then reality is a little bit better than that. Because they keep growing, then they're happy. So men need skills and they need answers. And those are two things that are handed down by other men through time and space. It's the reason you and I don't have to reinvent the Internet or reinvent fire or reinvent the world wheel. It's because it's been handed down to us from other men through all of time and space. You, Chris, are a collector of all the human knowledge that's been missed and lost. And you're pulling it in like this to one podcast where all the men in the world and women can come and gather that knowledge from your podcast. That's why you have one of the biggest podcasts in the world, because you're collecting the most useful information. Some that's new and some that's old but lost. And then people are taking that information and applying it in their life, but they're not just saying, they're not just doing it. They're teaching it their kids, they're teaching it to their friends, they're teaching it to their family. That knowledge is being restored. The male network from people like you is now being restored. So that's the growth that we're seeing, that's the enhancement.
- [60:22]
A
It's crazy, man, the ripples that happen. You know, I think about the stuff that I listened to in my 20s, that and the impact that it had on me, and I can even remember the drives that I was taking, the service stations that I would be at en route to, to some modeling job or some club night that I was running or wherever I was going, and I'd be listening to some podcast episode and there'd be some insight that would come up. And that's still with me now, you know, these very formative experiences. And in some ways it's beautiful because you think, wow, we've democratized, as you said, sort of lost insights that people didn't know and they didn't even know existed. And then on the other side, you think, fuck, like how, how sad. An indictment of the modern world that we've needed to do this individually, that this isn't the sort of information that was taught to us when we were kids that we didn't get from some broader community, some pan generational homestead that everybody would have been living in. I know that you have a theory that separate houses for grandparents, parents and kids is a like a psyop meant to keep fucking mortgage rates high. And like everybody under the boot of property companies. I don't fully disagree with you either, but you Know, there is a little bit of me that thinks, like, shit, should it have really been on me to have learned that at 29? Is that really kind of how it should have come about? So, yeah, it is great that we've got this democratized world of really insightful content that hopefully helps people make their lives better and then they can teach other people and it makes the world better and so on and so forth. But yeah, it is a little bit of a sad comment, I think, on how bereft and vacant a lot of this advice is for most people.
- [62:16]
B
It's not fair.
- [62:18]
A
Mean you shouldn't have a job. That's a way to mean you should not have a job.
- [62:23]
B
We shouldn't. And that's true. I think of the burning of the Library of Alexandria and how much knowledge was lost there. I think of the sack of Rome and how much knowledge was lost there. I think of all throughout history, how knowledge is lost again and again and again. Tribes wiped out, elders killed before they could pass on information. I think there has always been a warrior class and there's always been a sage class or a shaman class to pass on knowledge and make sure it's correctly passed on. I think you and I are in that second class. You and I are not warrior class going out and dominating and killing. We are the vehicles by which information is passed on to make sure it doesn't die. That's your job and my job. You gathering information to your podcast and outspersing it. Me having coaching clients come in and training them one on one and then sending them to their families so he's a better father, a better husband. Then that knowledge gets passed down for multiple generations so that future generations don't have that problem. Right now we've got AI coming in. Maybe that will help us integrate this knowledge and make sure fewer knowledge pieces are lost. We need to protect our knowledge better. But men like you and I, that's why we exist. Exist. We shouldn't have to. But it's chaos, it's destruction, it's societal decay, it's whatever you want to call it. We need to exist for that reason. But it's not fair. Men and women shouldn't have to be relearning the basics of how to pair bond, the basics of how to get food to eat, the basics of how to even find or build a family. We shouldn't be bereft of our families. We shouldn't have been ripped away. And orphans. We are all of us now, orphans, Chris. And we shouldn't be endless Waves of generations of orphans. We should be families and we should be integrated groups. I believe we will be again. People like you and I have to keep pushing for that. And everybody's who's listening to this right now. They have a place to part play.
- [64:03]
A
To part sell your house, buy a farm. Yeah, but put everybody on it.
- [64:07]
B
Give your buddy a hug. Give your buddy a hug and say something real. Pass on some information. Hey, man, I've been in a rough place, but this information helped me. Maybe it will help you someday too. Have you learned anything recently that was really helpful to you that I would need to know? Passing information and knowledge instead of talking about sports or the weather or some hot girl or some porn star. Okay. What knowledge have you learned lately and what was useful about it? Here's what I've learned. Let's continue building knowledge together, you and me, and be men against this world. That's what men out there listening right now can do. And women, too.
- [64:40]
A
We are comforting men to death. The modern world's obsession with comfort and safety softens men and strips them of their drive to overcome hardship and proven their worth to reduce male suicide rates. We need to give them challenges they can achieve and goals to reach.
- [64:54]
B
Do you want to hear something really horrifying? Like really horrifying? You're going to throw up.
- [64:58]
A
Okay, I'll try not to.
- [65:01]
B
In America, and this is at the start of COVID it's worse now in America, the average American man spends eight years of his life in escapist entertainment running away from his actual life. Eight years of his life worth of hours spread across his life is spent on a single escaping from his pain. We are comforting men to death. And they don't want it, but it's all they think that they have. So all the porn, all the video games, everything I'm not against like video games and fun, but men are running away because they don't know how to escape from their pain. And when we don't show them how to build a life that's meaningful. Right? You and I talked about this. I think it was four years ago. Our first ever podcast together, Right? If you give a man a purpose and the ability to revisit, reach it, he will crawl over broken glass with a smile. Right? I said it then and I say it again today. If men have a purpose and solutions and strength, they will endure anything. But he has to have that. And giving him sedation and numbing and doping him up and just comforting him right now kills him. It doesn't give him Value.
- [66:07]
A
Have I done my male sedation hypothesis thing? Have I taught you about that?
- [66:11]
B
No, please, please.
- [66:12]
A
That's an interesting one. Um, so there's a effect called young male syndrome, which is when you have a high volume of unmatched men in a society, they tend to become disruptive. They push over granny and they set shit on fire. And they're not really all that good for. For societal cohesion and, And. And peace and stuff like that. Uh, Portugal in the 1800s, uh, I don't know why, but there was a sex ratio imbalance and the way that they f. Was. The first son of every household was allowed to marry, and all subsequent sons were put onto galleon ships. You can go and explore the new world. Go forth like, what a wonderful opportunity. Also, don't fuck shit up at home, because if we left you here, we know that you would be pretty disgruntled and unhappy. So throughout history, if you've got a high number of unmatched men, especially young, young men, they tend to be poorly domesticated. You know, this data. Testosterone drops when you get into a relationship. It drops again when you have kids. Risk taking goes down, aggression goes down, et cetera, et cetera. Being an aggressive guy is not good for trying to raise a child. And in that way, you could see women as domesticating men. You could maybe look at them in a roundabout way as like doing. At least hormonally, they kind of domesticate men. So there's a question to be asked, which is, if we're seeing some of the highest rates of sex that we ever have in high population density areas, why is there not more antisocial behavior? Why are we not seeing more Young male syndrome? You know, for all that adolescents that show on Netflix sort of tried to lay at the feet of rebuffed, unhappy, bitter males. Boy, in that show, the evidence just isn't there. And there's a couple of papers out, one of which is, where is all the incel. Violence at which. And it's a great question. This isn't me calling for it, but I'm, you know, you have to ask if this is the sort of thing that kind of makes sense just philosophically, cognitively. Like, most people can think, yeah, if guys didn't really have much to be peaceful for, they'd stop being peaceful. And on top of that, you've got a ton of historical evidence of when this happens over and over again throughout history. Why are we not seeing it? And it's my belief that men are kind of being sedated out of their status seeking and reproductive behavior with video games and porn. And this male sedation hypothesis basically squares the circle of high levels of male loneliness and sexual sexlessness with young male syndrome. Like how do these two things coexist? And it's because men are kind of being anesthetized out of this more action and aggression based behavior. Now to bring it back to what we were talking about before, yes, men do need to have hardship, they need to have challenge, they need to have goals and the ability to achieve them. But one of the interesting questions is, is a useless but safe man better than a dangerous and aggressive man? And this is a value trade that we've kind of made at the moment in the world. And I would say maybe a tiny bit. On average I would like 51, 49. I would rather have useless men that aren't blowing every everything up. But fuck me, that's a bad trade if the choice is between useless and dangerous. And that's not really a trade that I want to make. And the only reason that this works, the only reason that I can even make that value judgment is that we're largely in a time of peace. Because as soon as something happened where you need to galvanize these men into being remotely useful in a partially kinetic way, you're fucked. Because you got the. I mean you've seen these on street interviews. Would you fight for your kids country? Would you fight for your someone's invader? Would you fight for your. Would you, would you go to war? Oh no, I, you know, my gluten intolerance could not, I could not stand. Oh no, I'm not fighting the man keeps you down. Whatever version of this and many of the anti war fucking sentiments are pretty accurate. But useless men versus aggressive men, young male syndrome being sedated by porn, video games and screenshots I think is a. I think it's worthy of further investigation.
- [70:48]
B
I 100% agree with you. I think coupled with that is men being raised to be good boys by a generation of women. Four generations that have nannied them to death. So they're trained to be afraid of stepping out and even being boys at all. I grew up in the California public school system where we were told by the authority figures that we were worthless for being boys. And like you said earlier here today only girls are good. Be more like the girls. We were told that nakedly. So we've got a programming of that. Men are also more separated and isolated from each other than they've ever been. As we've talked about here today. So the, the young male problem gets different when every man feels like he's utterly alone, and if he steps one foot out of line, the nanny state will squash him. And he has no brothers, no friends, no nothing. So then, yes, 100%, he's gonna, he's gonna numb himself into oblivion. And the corporations are happy and the governments are happy to provide that. But you're right, pacifism like that or sedation or neutering only works if you neuter every single man on the entire planet. Because we've seen that what happens in cultures when one man with a group of men sedate and collapse, other men come in and the other women welcome them in and say, oh, good, finally men are here. And it just swarms in and then you crush that population of men. I think that we're in an artificial bubble of fake peace right now. I don't think that it's real peace all. And I think that we're. I think it's about to pop. I think we're going to wake up fairly soon. I think we've got maybe a decade, maybe two, maximum, before things are unsustainable and just the number of. Of things that are getting ready to explode in our faces. But there's a lot of things happening right now that men are going to be very, very needed. And I think that the ones who can get out of sedation need to, and the ones who can't are probably going to become casualties. Unfortunately.
- [72:30]
A
Unfortunately, we've all heard the U.S. divorce rate is 50%. This number is hammered into us over and over until we're afraid to get married. Why even try if it's just a coin toss? It's not a coin toss. That 50% stat is a lie.
- [72:44]
B
It is. So the 50% stat is based on all marriages, including people who've gone through seven marriages. And every marriage is counted into that 50%, by the way. So you're actually looking at perhaps about 65 to 70% of first marriages succeeding and 30 to 35% failing. Now, that's still a big number, but we pretend there's no variables there. For example, a couple who prays together every single day reports a less than 1% risk. By the stats, from what we've seen of having a divorce. They also report incredible raised happiness. We also see when you have arranged marriages, again, you take the arranged marriages, you pull the people apart and interview them separately. They both report massively increased happiness and massively decreased risks of divorce. So there are many variables to at play Here, secure attachment is a big one because you can only build a healthy, thriving marriage in secure attachment. I've had to show people that I've got a new course out for that. But if you don't know how marriages work, you go into it blindly. You can't talk about problems. Everyone's alone, they're suspicious, they're scared. He checks out, she's angry and resentful. It's a recipe for divorce. We are building divorces right now. We're not building marriages, we're building flawed families that are dystopian destined and designed to explode in people's faces. It's awful. When you know what to do. Your risks of divorce drop below 1% there who think it's 50. Yeah.
- [74:08]
A
Presumably the people who pray together. It's not the act of praying together. Surely you can't bifurcate people who prayed together from I am of faith, therefore I go to church on Sunday, therefore I have a particular demeanor, therefore I have these cultural artifacts that I'm following, therefore I've got the pressure of the people around me. None of my friends are getting divorced because divorce would be looked down on in the wider community as well. And we know that if a woman's friend gets divorced, her likelihood of divorce goes up, et cetera, et cetera. So I'm trying to split out. And the same thing goes for the arranged marriage. I don't know whether arranged marriage is the solution or whether it's the sort of culture that engenders arranged marriage, the sort of climate culture that engenders a couple that would pray together on an evening time. Have you got any idea about how a secular person who doesn't want to move to Delhi or currently isn't of faith? What's the sort of broader lesson that they're supposed to take from that?
- [75:05]
B
Yes, absolutely. Let's pick that apart because you're right, people who are praying every day are probably going to be more religious. But people who are praying together as a couple every single day, the vast majority of people who only pay lip service to whatever their religion is, well, if they're paying lip service, they're not doing their prayers consistently and they're not doing them every day. In fact, what you see when you talk to most individuals is one person's highly religious, the other refuses to participate. They're not praying together as a couple. So if they're praying together as a couple, actually that's taking their religion seriously, which means they have a built in mission that they can unite toward as a Couple. So a built in purpose. I, I, I talk to people about the five different purposes that a couple can and should have have. There's many things that we need to focus on, but marriage should have a purpose. You don't get married to give each other good feelings till one of you dies. You get married so that you can fulfill a purpose together in a uniform fashion. You build together and it matters. And we have biochemistry that backs that up with vasopressin bonding. If it's your kids, grandkids, great grandkids, crafting. There's so many things you can do, but having a united purpose and then you agreed set of right and wrong. So principles, mission and principles united. And then your, you're sharing together and opening and being personal together about your desires, your needs and your sadness and your prayers. And you're actually having that experience and sharing it together. That's the unifying purpose. So it's not religion itself that brings you the 1%, it's all of those factors. Purpose, connection, shared culture, shared right and wrong. And then being open and transparent with each other about your hurts, your sadness, your fears, and your hopes and dreams as well. And doing that is what secular people can and should be doing. What is the purpose of your relationship that you'll be working toward lifelong? What is the culture, the agreed right and wrong values that you will share and operate under? What is your marriage contract that you're actually signing? How will you act toward each other? Not a prenup of how we'll get divorced. I agree with those actually, but a larger marriage conduct contract of how we will conduct ourselves. How will we live? What will we do when? What are we achieving? And then from that springs, how will we speak to each other? Will we be personal? When will we share information freely? Will we exchange our joys, our hopes, our sorrows, our fears? I just watched a good friend get married recently. He's an Orthodox Russian. Orthodox. I'm Catholic. So we fight like cats and dogs, but we love each other. And the priest handed him a cup of wine and said, you will drink this wine together because it symbolizes the joy of life, but also, also the sorrow, the pain and the agony. And you will drink it together for the purpose of achieving what God has set you to do. And they drank it together to symbolize that we're setting people up for marriage will be a joyful, hedonistic experience. And if it's not, find another person, just dust them off, toss them out the window, find another one on Tinder. What is the Purpose, what are your values? What are you achieving together? And are you being truly honest and naked in front of, of each other? That's secure attachment, by the way. And if you can build that, even if you're not securely attached, build the connection. That's what secular people can be doing to get that 100%.
- [78:06]
A
Very good, very good. Yeah, I'm on this flex at the moment thinking a lot about seriousness. Seriousness and earnestness as well, you could say. The bravery to take your emotions seriously. Not a bad definition for earnest. Kind of truthful vulnerability would be maybe another way to do it. Is a lot tied up in honesty and stuff as well. Increasingly I'm seeing people who are very unserious about stuff. And I realized this at a bachelor party a few years ago and we were playing shuffleboard on the sand covered thing and there was two groups. It was one group of guys on the right hand side and they were mostly the dudes that I wasn't familiar with. So familiar with the bachelor party. And they were having a great time. They were, you know, tossing it around and playing and like moving the little pucks about and stuff. When people weren't looking, they were having to wonder. Wonderful time. Then if you looked at our table, we'd separated into two separate groups. We were whispering into each other's ears, talking about what strategies we wanted to do. We were discussing the best way to hold the puck and push it and stuff like that. Now look, of the two tables I was on, the one that was most fitting for me. I'm the sort of person that wants to, that takes things like pursuits like that seriously. And there's no real sort of better or worse way to do it. Certainly not when it comes to shuffleboard at a fucking bachelor party. But when it comes to your relationship, relationship, I feel like that's something that you should be on my table and not on the other table about because there's a sort of like flippantness to that. You're not taking the care and attention. It kind of smacks of one foot being out of the door a lot of the time that ah, you know, if it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't. I'm not trying to transcend myself too much here. This isn't really all that important to me and it's kind of important to me, but it's, you know, there's other stuff that I've got that's going on or whatever and maybe that's just a. Maybe that's an entire cohort of People who can all get into relationships together and their relative relationship is the third most important thing that they have in their life. But I would guess that for a lot of people that listen to this show, and certainly for me, I fully intend on my future marriage being like the most important thing that I have. I wanted to make everything that I've done before that pale into insignificance and look like a shallow, desperate need for recognition from people who are 1, 1000th as important as the one that's asleep above us in the bed and the person that's next to me like that, that kind of speaks to me. And again, maybe this is simply because I haven't yet been married and encountered the challenges therein. But that to me seems like a very uncommon type of approach to having a relationship. That in popular culture a lot of it is sort of confluence. You know, it's for as long as you can benefit me, for as long as this is fun. Like, is this fun? This relationship's not fun anymore. It's not, you know, go, well, fuck me. There's a lot of different contributing factors to well being and satisfaction and flourishing than moment to moment fun. And yeah, I mean, relationships can and almost certainly do break up because they're insufficiently fun. But like, is that really the highest point of contribution that you and your partner have got for each other? I don't know. I just. There's something around this, the lack of seriousness with which people sort of take to relationships. Easy, easy come, easy go, transactional, transient. That whole world is just, it's kind of becoming old. I'm kind of getting bored by that.
- [82:03]
B
You're 100% correct. You are 100% correct. Relationships that are built on dopamine never will thrive. Never. They'll, they'll go hot and then cold and that's going to be it. It's done. Relationships built purely on oxytocin, especially like the affection hormone and love and stress snuggles, that's also going to die. Us men, Chris, you and I have more receptors for vasopressin than women do. And if you are avoidantly attached, you have low oxytocin most of your life, your oxytocin receptors shift to vasopressin reception instead for that period of time until you ever correct them. So you and I are primed to need to be accomplishing something with a woman, because then we become loyal to her, then we become mate guarding and protective of her. We actually become protective of her against ourselves. So we prevent ourself from Sabotage, sabotaging vasopressin and us stimulates the desire for oxytocin. So when you get married, you need a woman who has a mission aligned with yours. And then you need to go conquer together. You need to be on the one in the front. She needs to be the one handing you gear, keeping you supplied, keeping you going, supporting you at your back. And you're. You're high fiving every 10 minutes because you've accomplished one more thing together. That's what makes marriage incredible for men. And that's what builds overwhelming, overwhelming, obsessive loyalty in a man to desire that woman for the rest of his life. And she needs that from you. So do not get married, Chris, until you have a unified purpose and a reason for being married to that woman, because your life is so much more powerful and your legacy is thriving because of her. And then she's going to outlive you by about 10 years and carry on your legacy and be the bridge between you and your sons or the other men in your life who say, I wonder what Chris would do if he was here. What would dad do if he was here?
- [83:46]
A
I'm prepared to die early. Especially after the way that I spent my 20s. I am very prepared to die early.
- [83:52]
B
I hear you. But. But she's going to be that vessel to carry your legacy. So remember that. And then vasopress and bond with her. Have a reason and find a woman who is mission focused, not a woman who's fun focused or approval focused. Back to the very first tweet you read here today. Find a woman who's mission focused.
- [84:08]
A
Last one. People aren't afraid of love. They're afraid of losing it.
- [84:13]
B
Yes. People are afraid of being loved temporarily and then having it yanked away because they can't perform enough to keep that person's attention. That's not real love. People have confused love with affection. Okay. Affection is a feeling. Love is a series of continuous actions and choices for the person's well being. That's love. And people are afraid of losing what they think love is. People need real, legitimate love. And we also need to define what love is for people who've never felt it before.
- [84:43]
A
Dude, you're great every time that we get to sit down. I appreciate you talking about masculinity. Today is a nice pivot for us. What have you got going on? What's. What's new? Where should people go to keep up to date with stuff that you've got happening?
- [84:54]
B
I appreciate you. Thank you. I'm on Adamlanesmith.com is my website. Me and my team of coaches are on there. We help men who want to grow in their relationships and be the man husband father they've always hoped for and hope to be. We help women thrive and grow. We work with couples. I've got a course on there about exactly the one and only blueprint that works for a successful, secure marriage. You can take it as an individual, you could take it as a couple and grow in hope and love. If you never grew up learning what marriage was supposed to be. You need this course. So come check us out.
- [85:24]
A
Adamlanesmith.com Heck yeah, Adam, I appreciate you brother. Until next time.
- [85:29]
B
Thank you man.
- [85:31]
A
If you're wanting to read more, you probably want some good books to read that are going to be easy and enjoyable and not bore you and make you feel despondent at the fact that you can only get through half a page without bowing out. And that is why I made the Modern Wisdom Reading List, a list of 100 of the best books, the most interesting, impactful and entertaining that I've ever found, fiction and nonfiction and real life stories, and there's a description about why I like it and there's links to go and buy it. And it's completely free. You can get it right now by going to ChrisWillX.com books that's ChrisWillX.com books.