← Modern Wisdom
Loading summary
Transcript616 lines
- [00:00]
A
How big of an impact do you think TikTok has played in shaping the way that modern metal music sounds now?
- [00:06]
B
Ooh, it has a pretty big impact because all the young kids growing up right now on TikTok. And I remember, you know, even when I started YouTube, that was like a newer thing. People were discovering music through YouTube. I discovered a lot of, like, the big bands I listened to growing up through YouTube, and that was like, unheard of. You know, it was like, no matter what, it was usually, oh, on the radio or like, I don't know, your brother gave you like a cassette or like a CD or, um. So that was already such a new thing. There was kids discovering music through the Internet. I mean, MySpace, YouTube, I mean, Facebook to some capacity after that. So TikTok was kind of just that next generation of people scrolling and whatever they might be doing. Doom scrolling or just, you know, I'm trying to find cooking recipes, and then all of a sudden, you know, if they like music in any capacity or any of. Even if they don't, you know, they hear a sound and they're like, this is cool. And a lot of the things with modern metal is there's a lot of good clip moments usually with modern metal, particularly whether it's the breakdown or the other breakdown or the crazy vocal moment or even on the guitar. So crazy guitar moment, drum moment. There's a lot of musicianship and unique attributes that kind of go into that skill in terms of metal as a genre. So when you're able to just kind of clip farm some things like that and be like, oh, like, here's the best part, and you instantly get a payoff versus most people. You have to listen to the whole song or like, you know, in a minute and a half until the breakdown happens. So TikTok, I think, really enforces that, where people will be scrolling and they'll just hear like this crazy noise or breakdown or some dude screaming and doing goblin noises, and it'll be like, oh, I want more of this. You know, you instantly get hit with the punchline. It's like watching a horror movie and only getting hit with the jump scare. So it's. You instantly get kind of intrigued. And I think that has really helped play push metal into a bigger kind of, more just normalized audience.
- [01:58]
A
Look at the state of can you feel my heart? Look at the state of that Bring Me track, which, if anybody listened to that album when it came out, it was good. It was good song. It's one of my favorite songs in the album. It's It's. It shouldn't be like 10 times better known than the next best known Bring Me track.
- [02:15]
B
Yeah.
- [02:16]
A
And then just because the Internet gets a hold of it and can do if, if you make a track that is good to have videos laid over the top of. So that's my. That's what I'm thinking now. How many bands are thinking almost short form first? Like these are the three segments of this track that work for some reason. And then can we seed a meme early? I know. I mean, both of us know that the industry are doing exactly this.
- [02:42]
B
Yeah.
- [02:42]
A
Like they're seeding. Who was that? Fuck. Who is that band? Is it Geese or something? Is that that the band Geese? I swear it's. I swear it's called. I swear it's called Geese. When it comes to writing tracks, I. It seems so when it comes to writing tracks, bands have to be curating that sound to go, this is a bit. This is a bit that everybody's going to clip to go on TikTok. Obviously not everybody, but some non zero number that think, hey, we've got. We've got a chance of really blowing this up.
- [03:10]
B
Yeah, I, I think bands are really aware of it and I, I think a lot of bands still nowadays are like, you know, let's just. Let's write our bangers, you know what I mean? Like, it's, it's, you know, also weird because there's a different process of writing. Obviously it's not, hey, everyone, let's hang in our garage and figure it out until mom tells us to come up for dinner, you know what I mean? Or whatever kicks us out of the house. You know, it's. It's. Everyone's on their laptops. Everyone's, you know, either with their one producer or with, you know, now AI exists too, which is its own fun thing. So it's like the process is also really different and capturing that very exciting live, like, start to finish song moment with, you know, you and your bandmates is not as common in general when songwriting. So now, because it's so segmented and a lot of people even are like, okay, well, let's start writing. Let's start writing the song at the breakdown, you know, because that could start writing it at the climactic moment.
- [04:01]
A
We'll. We'll write how the movie ends.
- [04:03]
B
Yes.
- [04:03]
A
And then we'll work back from there.
- [04:04]
B
Yeah. So that's also things that have been happening and with that, obviously bands are more, you know, attuned with like, hey, you know, we've been a band for 10 years making heavy music. All right, well, we've seen other bands, you know, blow up by literally just having one moment that was crazier than the other moments or like one noise. You know, literally vocal gymnastic that.
- [04:23]
A
Look at like Knocked Loose. What they've managed to do through short form as well, just by being kind of the most extreme sound that most people have ever heard.
- [04:30]
B
Yeah, well, that's a thing with Knocked Loose particularly is I think they. They don't care about any of that. But because their music is so intense and so. Well, moment, like. What's the right word? It's. It's paced so well. They. They naturally work in that way.
- [04:45]
A
Well, that's what it's supposed.
- [04:46]
B
Yes.
- [04:47]
A
Social media is supposed to be something that happens that wasn't meant to fugazi everybody into loving it on social media. Being loved on social media because it's a window into something outside of it.
- [04:58]
B
Exactly.
- [04:59]
A
And the problem is if you try and make it for social media, you also have to mask over the fact that this isn't supposed to look like it was made for social media because that then completely undermines it.
- [05:09]
B
Yep. And then also a lot of time, unfortunately, the song just sucks. You know, like in the end you get like a shitty song and. And that's the worst part because sure you'll maybe get some hype and maybe you'll get like a lot of people going like, what was that? But then you won't get replayability. You won't get that timelessness of a song. And then it's again, because that becomes more of the focus. The focus is let's create a moment of a song instead of let's make a good song. There's a lot more songs then, but then there's not a lot more long lasting songs and songs that actually people like put even in their playlist other than like lol. Here's the meme. You know, here's the meme song. Oh, he did the thing. You know what I mean?
- [05:45]
A
Jerry, can you give me the screen? Cause I wanna pull up. I wanna pull up something that I think like I started listening to metal when I was in college. Right. So do you remember that job for a cowboy moment? You know, exactly the moment I'm gonna pull up. What was it called? Was it in Tunemen?
- [06:03]
B
It was in tune with the girl Scream, right? Yeah, yeah,
- [06:12]
A
Kids.
- [06:14]
B
Yeah. Well, dude, that's what's happening is there's a revival of this stuff.
- [06:17]
A
Bring me.
- [06:18]
B
Oh, dude. Count your blessings. They're gonna be the fourth listen to this, Jared.
- [06:22]
A
You'll have never heard this before. Whispers so unnecessary.
- [06:31]
B
Yeah.
- [06:32]
A
And then they put a bass bin.
- [06:33]
B
Yep.
- [06:34]
A
Like a proper electronic bass bin on that drop. I remember we were listening to that in my friend's car. I must have been 17, driving through the mean streets of the northeast of the uk. And he had a. He had a proper subwoofer in the boot of his car. You know, like the fancy head unit up front. And I remember that shook my teeth when that thing dropped. I was like, holy, dude.
- [06:57]
B
The. The bass drops of that. That era of music were legendary. Unmatched of just these big 808 nonsense. You know what I mean? And that's a lot of those. They were just having fun, right? They were. They were with their producer. And the producer could hit the button that lily was a bass drop or a reverse snare. And everyone would just do the thing that's. That was the equivalent. Do the thing. But it was a fun thing that they know no one would have cared outside of them. And then they. Because they're putting out extreme music, you know, for this time. Putting out that extreme music. Like Death Core, for example, with J. Like, Death Corps wasn't Death Core. There's no such thing as the word death corps. Even. Even metalcore was kind of like, not necessarily a term, you know.
- [07:32]
A
Might have had post hardcore at that time.
- [07:34]
B
Yeah.
- [07:34]
A
Coming through. Like Fightstar would have kind of been post hardcore Y sound.
- [07:37]
B
Yeah. And then there was even bands like that were kind of that weird in the middle where they had post hardcore elements and. But. Or metal like Under Oath was a cool one because they. They had emo moments taken back Sunday
- [07:49]
A
meets the heavy aggressive stuff.
- [07:51]
B
Right. So it was just a weird era where there wasn't genres. It was more of that freedom, I think, of just like, here's music and people that loved the extreme. Extreme were a lot of times just like kids that were screwing around and, you know, in school and were like, that's fun, dude.
- [08:03]
A
Like, can you do that again?
- [08:04]
B
Let's do that again. And it's funny because now with the resurgence in the movement again of like the 2000s traditional death corps coming back, especially with Bring me being like, let's do count your blessings again. Cu. Why not? We can do that. It's those moments. There's so many of those moments in that music that naturally would be the TikTok moment. I wonder, which is crazy.
- [08:24]
A
So, you know, pretty much everything has sort of come back around again. What was that video of the dude drinking Ocean Spray cranberry juice going down the street and it completely blew up a track that was 40, 50 years old. Abba has had a resurgence. Like the, you know, so many old tracks that have come back around again. Old hip hop that's come back around again, or pop songs that have come back around again. I haven't seen the same thing happen with metal. I haven't seen people go back to kind of the golden era, 2004-2010, which would have kind of been very formative for our age, and then gone. Oh, my God, dude. Have you heard, like, from the first Bullet For My Valentine ep, have you heard or have you heard like this? Everyone knows Treyu track.
- [09:05]
B
Everyone knows Tears Don't Fall. That's. That's. It doesn't matter how much death metal you listen to and how much you would, you know, say words to people that like that music when you were a young kid in the 2000s, right? Like, it's like you, you know, tears, they'll fall in all those kind of class. I think it's. What has happened is a lot of that music is starting to research because during the tens and the twenties, like, there's been a lot of cool music, a lot cool metal, and it's modern metal, but there hasn't been as many hits, you know, like there is in the tens. There was, you know, a big one in. In the metal core scene was like Doomsday Architects. That's a massive one. But the thing is. Yeah, but with bands like that and when those moments happen, what happens with the music scene tends to be like, oh, something's working. And so many bands do that. The amount of. I talked with Sam from Architects one time and he was just like, yeah, he was quite aware how many people ripped off that riff. It was just like, it is what it is. Even funny enough, wasn't the intention wasn't metal. But Mick Gordon doing the Doom soundtrack.
- [10:03]
A
Yep.
- [10:04]
B
Is 10. It's 10 years later now. Oh, my God. That is still one of the biggest influences on modern metal.
- [10:10]
A
Did they not. Did they not get Mick Gordon in to do the mastering for Bring Me's album? Yeah, I'm pretty sure that Jordan got him in to either help with something. Maybe it was one of the tracks,
- [10:19]
B
or at least it was on Post Human. I think he did. I'm not sure exactly his, like, credits, but I think he worked maybe on. On one of the tracks he might have been mastering. It makes it to a capacity too,
- [10:29]
A
but it's like, well, that Just stinks of Jordan. Like, Jordan's very sort of orthogonal approach to looking at stuff. Like he comes into a band that's very established and goes, okay, I'm going to add sort of more complexity mastering. Sound's gonna become wider, everything's gonna become bigger. It's more electronic. But yeah, dude, I mean, Fucking Architects is a great example of this. Somebody who's been around way longer than you think. Yes, those motherfuckers are old. Let's see Math Core, dude. Yeah, I love the boys, but, like, they're looking well for their age and for how much touring they've done. I think they're on album nine or 11 now. And each album, if you track it, each album has just been linearly bigger than the last one. Yeah, the lines just kept going up steadily. How many that after nine albums or 11 albums or something, have that be their biggest one. That's the first number one album or the first time that they chart. The first time that they Whatever after doing it for two decades, that's really rare.
- [11:24]
B
It's very tricky for bands to be that consistent. Bring Me is one of them. Architects is one of them. Obviously, the newer bands like Sleep Token, Bad Omens, the Spirit Boxes, British Dude, Dude, Loathe. I don't know if you listen to Loath at all. That was a crazy one where that one dropped. I think it was 2020or 2021around Covid eras. And it was like. I remember dropping and people were like, oh, this is cool. Like, I like Deftones, Meshuggah and Loathe. Like, their spice on it. Like, that's cool. And it was like. I noticed like six months, a year later, I was like, okay, why is this band now big? Like, it's like these. These numbers are going crazier and they haven't done dropped anything else, you know, like, they've been touring on it, but as much as they could, but there wasn't much going on. And then you start to see, oh, like these songs had something very special to them. They had a bit more of that timeless effort where they.
- [12:08]
A
Yeah, people are like, what's going on? Is this metal? Is it Shoegaze? Yeah, yeah, it's sort of this.
- [12:11]
B
That was when also the genre fusion thing was, like, kind of more in its infancy. Not that, you know, bands weren't doing it even in the 2000s. I mean, nu metal as a whole is genre fluidity, right? Of like, hip hop and mainstream stuff mixed with, you know, aggressive riffs and groove and stuff. Like that. But I think in terms of the modern sphere, where you're able to, in the same capacity, hear like almost a near, you know, 2000 traditional death core breakdown, but then hear a course where it's like an R and B or like a Deftones shoegaze kind of thing. That was a newer concept in the 2020s.
- [12:44]
A
But to do it in a way that doesn't feel too partitioned because, you know, if you go back to. Would be a good example of this. Earlier day to remember. Yeah, earlier day to remember. Very poppy vocals in Jeremy's working real hard on that. And I remember a plot to Bomb the Panhandle right where they got fucking. What's his Face. That porn star in the music video.
- [13:04]
B
I don't remember.
- [13:05]
A
It was pretty funny. They were playing around with the cleanest vocals possible and the heaviest breakdown that they could get, using the same tone. And it was good, but it did feel quite fragmented. And I think if you look at even their music now, but also if you were to look at basically anything except for Caramel, it's very flowy. Architects has gone from. I mean, they actually, with Doomsday, inverted it. Right. And they went from heavy verse to melodic chorus, which had almost never been heard of.
- [13:35]
B
Yeah.
- [13:36]
A
To do. To go heavy to light as opposed to light. And then the chorus in the breakdown is what's heavy.
- [13:41]
B
Yeah, yeah. That's something where, like, I think bands have gotten better in it because in the tens there was the whole, like, Rise Core era where there was the electronic chunk.
- [13:49]
A
Chunk. Yeah.
- [13:51]
B
Yes, all of that. And a lot of those bands, I think, did it with a lot of fun intent. You know, they were like. Well, we liked that Death Core part of the two, you know, 2000s and metal core. We like the 578 riffs and all that, but then also like, oh, synths. Yo, what is this synth dude? Like, you know, like electronic dance.
- [14:08]
A
What's the most rave sound that we can get from sort of the mid-90s? And I'm going to put it over the top.
- [14:13]
B
Yeah. And I think a lot of people initially, when they started, like, obviously Attack Attack being a big proponent of that. And like early. Early asking Alexandria in those bands where it was like, oh, this is like, so weird and out there. And I think when those bands start to adapt it initially it is. It's obviously fragmented, but it's like, you can tell they are having fun, fun with it. So they didn't necessarily care for it to be like this beautiful cohesive from start to Finish work. It's just like, no, here we like breakdowns and then we liked electronics and we just shoved it, like, whatever.
- [14:41]
A
And if it works, it's the electronics bit. Exactly. It's the breakdown bit. And you're going to listen and you're
- [14:45]
B
going to be forced to listen because you want to get to the ending, which is the other breakdown. So, like, it's, it's weird how they wrote stuff back then and some of that song. Some of those songs have like a lot of longevity. Some of them do not at all. And oh my God, you're like, damn. That. It was definitely just part of the movement. But I think over time bands start to just get better at blending. And like I said, I think Mick
- [15:05]
A
Gordon, sophisticated mastering's better, the production's better. It's not just some dude who happens to be okay on Pro Tools or Ableton. Yeah, no, that's like piecing this together. Oh, no, no, no. We're getting the guy that made the fucking doom soundtrack in.
- [15:17]
B
Yeah.
- [15:18]
A
To do this. And then as soon as that's done, everybody else can kind of. Okay, what, what did Mick do to make that sound quite wide? What did he do to layer 75 cents on top of each other?
- [15:27]
B
There's so many synths on guitars. It's. It is. I joke about it every time because it is just is what it is. But it's, it's. It's more sound design now. Like the guitar.
- [15:36]
A
So true.
- [15:36]
B
Obviously, in a lot of sub genres of metal, like extreme death metal or technical death metal and that kind of stuff. It's very like riff first, you know, like you have one, you know, one or two guitars and they sit there and they make sick ass riffs. And like, you know, in audible tuning, you know, not in like drop omega lull tuning. Like it's, it's still like drop C or E standard, you know. There's a band, Silosis, I don't know if you know them with Josh. Josh Middleton, he's super sick. He is a riff master. They've been going since, oh my God, 2006. I'm going to. People are going to.
- [16:08]
A
What the fuck happened? Big question. Yeah, we'll get back to talking in just one second, but first tell me if this sounds familiar. You train regularly, you eat reasonably well, maybe you even supplement. You feel fine, but you're just kind of going off vibes. Most people have absolutely no idea what's going on inside of their body, which is why I partnered with Function. Function gives you access to more than 160 advanced lab tests spanning hormones, heart, health, metabolic markers, inflammation, thyroid nutrients, liver and kidney function. It even detects early signals linked to more than 50 types of cancer. To put that in perspective, your typical annual physical might test about 20 markers and function runs over 160. And this isn't just numbers dumped into your inbox. Every result is reviewed by clinicians, abnormal markers get flagged and you get clear explanations and and a personalized protocol with actionable next steps so you can actually do something about what you learned. Best of all, you test twice a year and everything lives in a simple dashboard. You can just track trends over time, make sure that you're moving in the right direction. Normally, this level of testing would cost thousands through private clinics. With function, it is $365 a year. That's $1 a day to know what's actually happening inside of your body. And right now you can get $25 off, bringing it down to 340. Get the exact same blood panels that I get and save that additional $25 by going to the link in the description below. By heading to functionhealth.commodernwisdom and using the code ModernWisdom at checkout. That's functionhealth.com ModernWisdom and ModernWisdom at checkout. What happened in 1988 to 1991 to produce so many humans that in 2006 to 2010 would create fucking insane music for the next 2000 days?
- [17:50]
B
There was so much good.
- [17:51]
A
What was in the. But it's attack. Attack. These like everybody splinters off in different directions and they all rule like under oath still going decades later.
- [18:01]
B
Dude, they're killing it. They sound very good. They sound very good nowadays. And I, I think a lot with all those like legacy bands too, like I'd consider Under oath in that capacity where like they have such a good old catalog as well as their new stuff is sick. Where like they're able to embrace their old catalog. And I start to see a lot of those bands, especially new metal bands. Oh my God. Like the Lincoln Parks and the Corn seen.
- [18:21]
A
MGK is about to release a track with Biscuit.
- [18:23]
B
Yeah, that's fun, man. Like, you know what I mean? It's gonna be like kind of fit, you know? Starfish, Hot Dog Brother.
- [18:29]
A
Hell yeah.
- [18:30]
B
Like, whatever. I don't know how they're gonna combo, but like, it'll. It'll make sense, you know, and that's something. When I see stuff like that, I think it's fun. Even if the song ends up being. I'm like, that's fun.
- [18:41]
A
I'm glad that you did it.
- [18:42]
B
Yeah, someone went for it, you know what I mean? Like, that's cool. And unfortunately, in the metal scene, you not only don't get rewarded for those efforts, you usually get shunned intensely for
- [18:54]
A
collaborating too much outside of the genre.
- [18:56]
B
Yeah, if like you get shunned if
- [18:59]
A
you want to do a feature on your fucking next track.
- [19:01]
B
Yeah, it's. It's very tricky. It's. There's very rare occasions where like it's like, oh, hell yeah. Like, this is sick. Like there was one, I think, like Spirit Box did something with like Megan, Megan thee Stallion. And I was like, that's a big combo, you know, between those two.
- [19:13]
A
And I imagine that the Venn diagram of the people that listen to Spirit Box and Megan, it's fucking two circles that have never intersected, dude.
- [19:20]
B
It's tricky because now nowadays I think kids are growing up with like, I don't know, maybe they're growing up with their parents like that they grew up in the 2000s and the 90s, so they listened to all the pop and radio stuff. But then also, I don't know, dad listened to Suicide Silence, you know, or mom listened to the Acacia Strain, you know.
- [19:34]
A
So it was fucking. I used to run nightclubs in the UK and the venue that I was working at passed through Hands a bunch while we were running the Saturday. You had this huge fuck off Saturday that shout out to everyone that came to Voodoo Saturdays in Newcastle. And we were doing like 1800 kids a week in a venue that held a thousand. And it was like they were pouring out the back doors. The door staff were taking backhanders so that people could queue jump. Because it was the hardest thing for half a decade. It was really cool. It was fun to run. It passed Hands a second time after about three years, four years in. And it became a live music venue. Cause it had a big stage, it had quite good sound production. And they started putting bands on. I was like, oh, this is cool. Like maybe some bands will come through that I really like. And not many bands came through that I liked. But there was one time where I needed to clear out the remnants of the mosh pit after Every Time I Die. And the same thing after Suicide Silence. And the fucking guys came upstairs and the dude I didn't realize, I can't remember who it is. One of the guys was recovering. I can't remember who it was, but he came upstairs and all of his bandmates, they're like what's going on after this? And I'm like, hey, it's a club night and if you look outside there's 500 people waiting like just pouring out of this car park. And I'd go outside like some. I had a big afro at the time. Some huge fucking big head conductor trying to orchestrate this just chaos, this cacophony of bullshit. And they're like, oh, this sounds sick. And I remember that one of the guys. I think it was suicide silence. I hope I've got it wrong. I remember that one of the guys was sort of thinking like this sounds really good but like I probably shouldn't be in a nightclub surrounded by 1500 British 19 year olds. Given that I'm recovering it. But anyway it just. It caused this sort of crazy crossover between different worlds. But you are right, like people listen to that. You can have a dad like my age.
- [21:26]
B
Yeah.
- [21:26]
A
Listening to something that the kid. The kids are like teaching him about Sleep Token and he's teaching them about every time I die.
- [21:32]
B
That's what's happening now is it's funny to see with like you mentioned Sleep Token like the bad ones. These very particular modern metal bands are like. They seem to be like going through all the generations. So like the younger kids are finding them on TikTok and then the. The parents. Maybe it's also because they're listen. Their kids are listening to them but they're sick. But because they're so accessible in a capacity. Even though they still have really heavy moments and breakdowns and all this stuff, they're so accessible where like, you know, the parents will be like oh wow, I really. That. That's such a good chorus. I love this singing. My mom does, grew up, did not, you know, listen to metal. She was lovely, always supportive. But definitely when I was. She told me a story one time of like very funny. She was like, oh my goodness. You know Nicola, like when. When you were growing up, there was one point you told me you like, you know, this metal music. And I couldn't sleep for a week.
- [22:18]
A
Like, you know, my mom and dad got worried too.
- [22:19]
B
She thought, I don't know, I was going to be possessed or something.
- [22:21]
A
My mom and dad got worried about that too.
- [22:23]
B
Yeah. And like I didn't grow up in her time. Which I get looking back on the history like the Satanic panic and all that. She's like, oh okay. Like I get it. Like the perception of that music.
- [22:30]
A
It was kind of like first wave the way. Yeah. Like what would have been prior 2004. Like, what. What's the genesis of the genre in the 90s and the 80s? It. The sound is so different. Like, if you put a boy brush red on now and then you play Sleep Token afterward, or you play Omens or something, you're like, oh, yeah, yeah. I kind of get. I kind of get how that's like, you know, it's in the same sort of lineage or whatever. But I don't think if you did the same thing 20 years before 2006, 1986, you're not gonna get the same sort of lineage that you could track throughout the sound. So maybe it's literally just that what you listen to when you're a teenager, you get locked into. And that's still the best. Like, for me, Taking Back Sunday, both of their albums from, like, 2004, 2006 are gonna be the greatest albums that I've ever heard, but I'm happy for someone else to come along and try and have their shot, and I'm still in that. And because the music's evolved, but not change necessarily, I think I'm still prepared to listen to it.
- [23:36]
B
Yeah, it's. It's. For me, it's. It's like I go back and it's stuff I grew up with, like Alexis on Fire and, like, Bullet. Dude, Alexis on Fire needs more love, bro.
- [23:45]
A
Dallas Green. Fucking Happiness, Happiness by the Kilowatt I'm going to. Jared, give me the. Give me the thing. I just want to listen. This is going to kill the fucking retention. And I do not care. I do not care at all. Because fucking Happiness by the Kilowatt is just one of the fucking most insane. And a bunch of people that self
- [24:05]
B
titled in the Crisis is just a trilogy.
- [24:08]
A
What a fucking insane run. I mean, what is this? Oh, turn it up, Jared.
- [24:18]
B
Dude, it's good vibes, man.
- [24:19]
A
Absolute retention. Killer. And I couldn't give a fuck.
- [24:23]
B
I think also, man, with this time, like, it was this beautiful transition of, like, youthful music, right?
- [24:34]
A
Bro,
- [24:37]
B
I'm not a drummer. I don't know why I'm doing that.
- [24:39]
A
So beaut. And then this, like, atmospheric. So this is very prescient. Like, super prescient. I heard, I saw Dallas Green released an album recently.
- [24:48]
B
I haven't kept up with Dallas. I know. I remember in, like, the 2000s, when City of Color. City of Color was, like, massive. And everyone in Canada was like, oh, my God. You're like, you know, this is because that broke through, obviously, just. Just the metal heads, that was like, oh, this is like Mainstream here. Like, this is like you're. You're. You're a huge star here, which is crazy. And I would hear that on the radio all the time. And then I would always laugh when people would discover he's in Alexis on Fire. Because that's how I knew him.
- [25:11]
A
Yeah. I knew Dallas through Alexis, not the other way around. Yes. Oh, this guy's got solo project.
- [25:15]
B
Cute, dude. It's that. That era of music, I think, is my favorite. I talk about all the time when I have people kind of. Kind of old, our age, where, like, we grew up in the 90s, 2000s, and it's like such a special era where we still went outside and. But we had. We had games and we had the Internet, like it existed, but it wasn't
- [25:33]
A
like you had the distribution without the captcha.
- [25:35]
B
Exactly. And it wasn't. You're consuming everything you were doing, and that's something. That's so beautiful.
- [25:40]
A
I got to. I got to bring it up. Have you heard the new fucking say Usin song?
- [25:42]
B
It's sick.
- [25:43]
A
Oh, my God.
- [25:44]
B
Nostalgic.
- [25:45]
A
Say a sin was my fucking. Why can't I find. It's just reaction.
- [25:49]
B
Reaction.
- [25:49]
A
These are your fucking peers, dude. I don't want the fucking reaction. I want to see the actual song. Please. Thank you very much. Oh, my God, dude. This is sickening.
- [26:06]
B
Yeah. And they got Phil now in the band, who was. I mean, he was in Azelai Dying for the longest time. And, like, you hear it in that riffing, dude. It's just
- [26:19]
A
when I heard this guy's vocals come back in, I was like, I'm 19 again. I'm 19 again. I'm nineteen. I'm at my friend's house. I've got a beer hat on with two straws going into my mouth. I'm playing Guitar Hero.
- [26:33]
B
Guess it, dude. That's how I started guitar. I played. I started by playing Guitar Hero. That was the first thing ever. My introduction. But that's why that era, dude, like, between Guitar Hero, mtv, Tony Hawk, Pro Skater, like, all these games were influenced so much with music.
- [26:47]
A
The snowboarding game.
- [26:48]
B
Oh, amped.
- [26:49]
A
Yes.
- [26:49]
B
Amped. Massive.
- [26:51]
A
That was where I learned about Static X. Yep. Who the fuck else was on that soundtrack?
- [26:55]
B
Dude, There was even a. There's even like, the sports games. The sports. You know, the. The. I didn't play many of them, but, like the.
- [27:00]
A
Madden.
- [27:01]
B
Madden. Yeah, Madden.
- [27:02]
A
The NBA.
- [27:03]
B
Yeah. It was always because they wanted energy, they want energetic music. And right at that moment, that was obviously coming from the alternative and metal scene. Whether it was new metal, whether it was like melodic metal core, whether it was post hardcore.
- [27:16]
A
Limp Bizkit did the track for a Mission Impossible movie.
- [27:19]
B
Dude. And like, it was funny because if you go back then, I was pretty young, but I can remember it being like, oh, new metal. Like, this is stupid. You know, like, you know, you're not real metal head. Like, you got to listen.
- [27:28]
A
I want old metal.
- [27:29]
B
Yeah. I want proper. I want either. And that was a crazy time too, because it was. Everyone was fighting of like. Well, real metal at that time was still Metallica, you know, Slayer. Like, that's. That is.
- [27:38]
A
Well, that was. That was when people had a problem with scene kids.
- [27:40]
B
Yes.
- [27:41]
A
Right. When it was like, it wasn't cool to be seen, but kind of the music's moving in that way and everyone secretly listens to that. It's like, I don't want to have the fringe, but I kind of can't not have the fringe. And like, well, fucking bring me's crushing it at the moment. So, like, I do want to listen to them and they are cool, but like, everybody kind of wants to hate them a little bit. And like, I feel like I should be in the Lamb of God and Megadeth, but there's no melody in there and I don't really get it.
- [28:01]
B
Yeah.
- [28:01]
A
I don't really understand what's going on.
- [28:02]
B
It was such a tricky time, but some of the best music ever. And that's why I had a conversation with. With. I think it was JT from Error or a few. Someone from One of the fucking Love era, Dude. Dude. Era is so sick. Where I went back and I was kind of like, dude, like, I don't know if I'm just a boomer now, you know, Like I. Or if it's. If it's nostalgia bait. But like I go back and listen to these records, you know, like, that I grew up with and I'm like, this is still the best music I think I've ever heard.
- [28:29]
A
What would you. What would you put up that. What do you go back to when you're listening to stuff that's from that era?
- [28:33]
B
So, okay. Alex on Fire, Watch out or self titled and Crisis. That true. If I listen to one, I have to listen to whole trilogy, correct.
- [28:39]
A
Yeah.
- [28:40]
B
Yeah.
- [28:40]
A
It's like watching the first Lord of the Rings. Yeah. I'm locked in until the end. Throws a fucking ring in Mordor.
- [28:44]
B
Exactly. I'm locked in. Bullet the Poison is so classic because it just. It embodies that youthful time with. Again, I don't even care about the lyrics or any of that capacity. It's just the feeling, the vibes of these aggressive riffs, like these. These, like, emo British kids that are, like, trying to be as metal as they can, but they're still like kids at that time. But they blend it in a way that embodies that youthfulness. So, first Architect ep, that first art yet that is. That's when they were Math Core. Yeah, it's very different to now.
- [29:14]
A
Yeah.
- [29:15]
B
I think that Kill Switch As Daylight Dies is a big. For me, like, oh, my goodness. All our mains. Fall of Ideals. That was more on the guitar side. Atrey with the Curse.
- [29:26]
A
Yep.
- [29:27]
B
Yep. That's a big one.
- [29:28]
A
What a fucking era, dude. It was nuts because what I've started to do, we do these vlogs for when I'm on tour. And I was like, I'm always looking. I'm going to use say A Sin. That new track is so fucking amazing. We've used Sleep Token, we've used Omens, we've used a bunch of bands because it's cool. We have a playlist for the show that's not a podcast, which is just my music, which is just like all of this metalcore stuff. But I was thinking, I wanna do something a bit different. So the most recent vlog that we just put out was Taken back Sunday. A Decade under the Influence and the Used.
- [30:01]
B
The Used.
- [30:01]
A
And I was like, what that whole era as well, for me, reintroducing people now to that music? Cause it's as far as I can see. And maybe this is just what my dad felt like when I was 10 and he was saying, listen to Whitesnake. And I was like, I don't get it, Dad. I don't know if I can take someone who listens to. Who's got used to the production quality of Omens and Sleep Token and introduced them to, like, Dashboard Confessional.
- [30:30]
B
It's.
- [30:31]
A
It's Hawthorne Heights.
- [30:32]
B
It's. It's a hard. It's a hard transition and that. And that's where I think it depends. Some of those records, particularly, like, I would say the trans, like, obviously bring me with them redoing. Count your blessings. It's funny. I think that's going to be like, they defined a generation with. With.
- [30:47]
A
Are they going to try and redefine a generation with the same song?
- [30:50]
B
I think they're going to literally do that because there's already been the movement of, like, reintroducing 2000 death core. Like, there's this band, Reverend Psycho Frame is probably, I would say, this band that does it the best. Where, like, if you like the Cleansing by Suicide Silence, you'll like that. They. They basically took that. That kind of sound. They're like, okay, let's do it our way in a way that's modern and just ace it. And like, that's a band that absolutely kills it. And there's a few other bands kind of revolved around there where, you know, they have the sn. The snare that sounds like a trash can, you know, like the, The. Yeah, the old school Saint Anger snare which Deathcore then stole. They have the 808s that literally make your speakers actually explode. Not like kind of like, oh, it's clipping a little bit. No, like the intent is that it clips so hard that the rest of the 10 seconds of music following it is quiet. Is quiet because it's ducking and so compressed that it's so funny to listen to with just Non Stop Breeze and all of that. So that's something which is really exciting to. To see. And that's why I do think like a band like Bring Me who, you know, they're like, I love that trajectory of. We're deathcore. We're the most extreme, you know, one of the most extreme things we could be at that time. Right? Obviously there's like death metal and tech death and black metal and all that stuff and all these like extreme, extreme genres that are more old school and less modern with the core, you know, at the back of it. And let's go through. All right, we did Death Core, we did Metal Core. Then we did kind of alternative rock metal. And then we did literally a pop record with Ammo. And then we kind of dabbled a little new metals posthuman, and then emo core. And now let's go back to deathcore. You know, it's like a band that has gotten that big off that trajectory. There's not. I don't see another band that says, hey, we started Deathcore, made a pop record, and now we're making deathcore music again. Like, that's. That does not happen, you know, because that's.
- [32:32]
A
Ollie's the fucking man, dude. I've been. I've been friends with him for maybe like 12 years now. Jordan joined the band. He had a problem with Ableton. I tweeted him about it. They needed to go out in Newcastle when they were playing a gig. So I, I saw them play Newcastle University. And it must have been to 750 people. And this Was pretty after Jordan joined. So not that like early in the band's trajectory, but still they were just about playing. They played the O2 Academy the next time they came back around.
- [32:58]
B
Did they drop Sempaternal yet?
- [33:00]
A
No, this would have been before that.
- [33:01]
B
Okay, because that. I know that was like the.
- [33:04]
A
Whoa, when was that the spirit. Was that before Semp Eternal? After that was 2015, but so it would have been count your blessings. Then what was the one that they did the. A dubstep remix of with the girl holding her guts?
- [33:17]
B
There was counting of blessings.
- [33:18]
A
That was Suicide Season.
- [33:19]
B
Suicide Season. And then there is a Hell was after that.
- [33:21]
A
Right. Okay. So it was around about that time anyway, so I go out and I hang out with the boys and I've just like kept in touch with them throughout all of the stuff that they've gone through. And like during COVID Matt had a fucking shoulder issue. So I'm on FaceTime to him, like trying to explain how to do external rotations, like just little cute things. But to see see guys that, you know, just be really fucking brave at following. We're gonna not be constrained by what is even popular. What was that? They did a lo fi release where all of the songs were like, just file names. Like stupid file names and stuff. Like, we literally don't care. We'll do a collaboration with MGK and Travis Barker. Like, there's no limits at all. I think that's really cool.
- [34:03]
B
Yeah, well, they're one of those bands which everyone, you know, not everyone, but a lot of people in the modern metal scene are like, oh, what did they just do? Okay, let's do just. They kind of did the trend setting for a long time. Especially I think after Semp Eternal. That was the big one of like, okay, wow. Every band now has production and synths and the Weird eight. The only nerdy ass guitarists will understand this. But like 850-388-504 chord progressions kind of get, you know, integrated into this stuff now where you hear that like very major sound, but it's dark and frigid and all that. And you're like, oh, okay. Like, thank you. Bring me. You know what I mean? Again, not the first band to do these things, but the band that. That made it massive. So all these other bands could come along and be like, oh, you made it work. Because like this wasn't supposed to work.
- [34:46]
A
Yeah, just because you can do it doesn't mean that you put it in a record. Yeah, because the point isn't to be able to do it. The point is for it to be done and it be popular. Yeah. And it takes someone. So I was listening to, you know, Cody Rhodes. He's the WWE guy with the blonde hair.
- [34:59]
B
I don't. I don't.
- [35:00]
A
Okay, so I don't watch WWE much, but I was listening to this pod and it was really fucking interesting. And he was saying that it doesn't matter who did it first. It matters who did it best and who popularized it. So he was talking about Hulk Hogan and he said Hulk Hogan did the power up thing. So he's kind of losing a fight and then someone hits him and he shakes it off and then they hit him again. He shakes it off and he hit him again. And then he turns the fight around and he wins. Nine wrestlers had done that.
- [35:26]
B
Okay, gotcha.
- [35:27]
A
Before Hulk Hogan. Also the finger thing, like the finger point, that was kind of classically owned by Hulk Hogan. He stole that from a ton of other people that had done it before, but they hadn't done it to the point where they'd got saturation and popularity and owned it. And it's kind of not too dissimilar with this because architects with Doomsday, there's a fucking wonderful line I love, which is originality is just undetected plagiarism.
- [35:52]
B
Oh, dude, nothing is new anymore. Yeah.
- [35:54]
A
Sam will say himself. He's. Oh, well, yeah, dude, I was listening to this thing or that. I mean, listen to Jordan Fish. Like, Jordan's fucking inspo. So much of the shit that he did is like coming from weird video games and like watching cyberpunk stuff and all, you know, real crazy out there stuff. And you go, okay, so it wasn't original, but you were the first one to do that thing. Well, popularly in this genre. And once that's done, like, how many people are trying to recreate the cum metal? Like rap?
- [36:21]
B
That should never have been a title.
- [36:23]
A
I think Cummetal is a perfect descriptor for what Bad Omens and Token are,
- [36:27]
B
you know, batty core.
- [36:28]
A
What is it?
- [36:29]
B
It's more sophisticated. It's. It's. It's. It's. Yeah, there you go.
- [36:34]
A
What's the sound of this?
- [36:35]
B
It's. That's. It's. It's vibes. Yeah, it's night drive vibes, dude.
- [36:39]
A
Correct.
- [36:39]
B
Yeah, there you go with the windows down, the easy breeze. You know, you're just like chilling. But yeah, that one is. Oh, it's. It. Nothing is new any. And that's the crazy thing with music, because I think a lot of bands Try, you know, I think have accepted that to a capacity and you know, you. You can't do a new chord progression.
- [37:00]
A
An ab beer, like a non alcoholic beer.
- [37:03]
B
Cheers, dude. All right.
- [37:03]
A
Cheers, dude.
- [37:05]
B
Like, you can't, you can't do a new chord progression. It's. I don't think you physically can. I think in terms of music, every single one has ever been done is done. You know what I mean? In terms of a sequence of notes, you can't technically create a new sequence. It's. They've all been done in the history of music. Can you do them at a specific sequence, in a specific key and a specific bpm with a specific chord progression under. With a specific groove under that? These are the differentiators that make it more unique.
- [37:32]
A
This episode is brought to you by Gymshark. I have tried pretty much every brand of gym wear over the years. Most of it looks good on the website, but very little of it survives real world training, which is why I'm such a massive fan of Gymshark. Their hybrid shorts, especially in onyx, gray and navy, are basically my uniform in the gym at this point. They move properly, they don't bunch, they're super lightweight. You can wash and dry them in an afternoon. The GEO seamless T shirt is what I train in almost every single session. Breathes properly, holds its shape after you wash it. Everything that Gymshark makes is lightweight and sweat wicking and easy to wash and dries fast. And if you're still on the fence, they offer a 30 day free return. So you can buy it and try it for 29 days. If you don't like it, just send it back. Plus, they ship internationally and right now you can get 10% off everything site wide by going to the link in the description below or heading to gym shmodernwisdom and using the code modernwisdom10 at checkout, that's Jim shmodernwisdom and modernwisdom10 a checkout. Does that not mean. Then if that's the case, would that not suggest that vocals, lyrics, the kind of things that are most front and center the songwriting and the lyrics should be the biggest differentiator that people still have. Now, is that not the case?
- [38:47]
B
I don't. I mean, it could be, but also I. And this is way out of my realm of understanding, you know, I. That would probably attend more to like understanding human psychology more because a lot of the lyrics, particularly in mellow too, are very, you know, like, damn, shit sucks, you know, and like, why does it sucks.
- [39:04]
A
Life's hard and I wish it wasn't. And I'm alone. But maybe there's a bit of hope. But there's probably.
- [39:08]
B
Yeah. Or. And I mean. Or telling stories, right? Which. I mean, then that's. That probably takes more of a history degree again than my dumb ass on the Internet. Figuring that out of, like, understanding. Like, I'm sure in history stories have been retold and retold in different ways and new masks of it. You know what I mean? Where. That's why it's like yes and no when it comes to lyrics, because I think they're still running into that same problem. You can only use so many words, but you can also saturate words like the undertow. My God, band, stop using that fucking word. Right? Like, you know, I'm stuck in the undertow. Like there is. Or call outs and shit like this. Where like. Like there's so many cliches. Cliche lines, exactly. That. Like, yeah, we can avoid that. But in terms of thematically, you know, or using the particular words to describe a feeling and emotion, that's the theme of the song. I mean, that's something that's so tricky and hard to find, again, uniquely. But that's why. Because there's so many elements of a song, right? There's. There's lyrics, there's the. There's the vocals, there's the types of cadence. You know, you can have a. A song that everything is the same in terms of the lyrics, the concept, the theme, the groove, the bpm, the melodies. And you can have one do a Death Corps version and one do a country version. You know what I mean? And technically that would be a cover because they're so similar. Right? But at the same time, to a listener, a lot of people would not even know they're the same songs.
- [40:26]
A
Sonically, they don't sound anything like that.
- [40:28]
B
Exactly. Right. Even though conceptually on paper you have all the things written down. And that's why I see things happening in the scene sometimes of like, this band copied this man. This man copied this man. I'm like, yeah, you know, but like, under what factors? You know what I mean? Like, there's so many elements and variables. Like what. What defines that? You know, I'm not. I'm not making the copyright laws, that's for sure, that I. My YouTube channel says I'm not. You know what I mean, with how many claims I get. So it's like in terms of making music and how similar it is to something else, and it Being considered like new. At what point? Like if the bp, you know, if the melody is the same and the lyrics are almost are like 90. I don't know, based on chat GPT the same or. Or this, but like you're 3 bpm faster. Like is this. You know what I mean? Like, is how.
- [41:13]
A
Different enough is different enough.
- [41:14]
B
Yeah. And that's something that's really tricky. And when we start to get into like the grassroots of that, that's when
- [41:19]
A
it's just like, well, Ed Sheeran had that big pull up right, A few years ago where he's like, look, this, I can play every big hit from the left last 50 years.
- [41:27]
B
Yeah.
- [41:27]
A
With these few chords.
- [41:28]
B
Yes.
- [41:29]
A
And yeah. I don't know. I haven't seen much, at least coming out of metalcore. I haven't seen much by the way of beef from this band. Tug from this band. Tug from this band. I think maybe because it's so small, the scene is sufficiently small that the likelihood of you encountering them at Rockville or at fucking downright or something, there's not enough bands to go around, you know, so it's like podcast partners with what we do. If you get to a certain level, there's only a handful of partners that have the money to be able to sponsor shows of a certain size. That means that you can't piss them off, right? You can't, because word, either word will get around and. Or you need them. At some point I'm gonna be the equivalent of a supporting band or headlining with a part. I'm gonna be at some fucking conference somewhere or whatever, needs someone to loop me in with the guy from eight Sleep or the dude that does fucking betterhelp or like it's the same thing.
- [42:27]
B
Yeah, it's. The scene is very big and small at the same time. And that's coming from me again, a person. Like, I'm not an touring band. I'm not part of that specific segment of that world. Even though I work with all the bands, I, I, you know, in terms of the label industry side, like, I work with them the back end, in terms of like, hey, you know, at least back then they would be like, hey, we got this coming out, you know, So I was very in tuned, always with like PR and, and like then being like, hey, we got these releases coming up. Hey, do you want this person on. On your. On your show to shoot the shit? Or, you know. You mean, do you want to do some kind of content and whatnot? So that's my knowledge base of that but in terms of even just that circle and talking to people, like, everyone kind of knows everybody. So if you're a dick, it's really obvious. Just don't be a dick to people and then you'll usually be fine. And obviously part of that is you trying not to copy paste someone's song session because it can be very, like, super obvious.
- [43:18]
A
The other way through that is to almost make being a dick your brand, which is what Ronnie Radke does.
- [43:23]
B
There's a. There's a few people that I think have done that so successfully, and mad kudos if they do it to a point where it's like, damn. To be consistent at doing that is exhausting. So if you can pull that off,
- [43:35]
A
it's almost like, do you know what it is? And I think he's fucking fascinating. Ronnie's gonna come on the show soon, which is gonna be cool. It's basically like being the heel in wrestling a little bit. Like, the heel can have the belt, he can be the best in the world at a thing, but also he's kind of happy to be the person. What's your job? Oh, my job's to piss everyone off. Like, my job is to give zero fucks and to just piss everybody off.
- [43:58]
B
Yep. Yeah, that's a few bands, I think. I think particularly during, like, the MySpace slash, like, Warp tour days, that was like, a thing to do. Like, let's go try, like, be the extreme band. Like, let's go piss people off. Like, fuck you. Or rock stars, you know what I mean?
- [44:13]
A
Have you ever seen the video of when Bring Me did? Was it the Brit Awards and Ollie stood on Coldplay, Chris Morgan's table and kicked his champagne off and stuff. And that was huge beef. And I remember thinking at the time, never in my life did I assume that I would be seeing Ollie Sykes and Chris fucking Martin from Coldplay.
- [44:35]
B
Yeah.
- [44:35]
A
Having beef with each other every.
- [44:37]
B
A lot of people know each. And that's why it's like. I think it is somewhat segmented in terms of, like, okay, you're. You're a metal band or you're a poppers. But like, a lot of it. There's so much overlap. I mean, a lot of people have the same. I mean, you know, labels to a capacity. The metal ones are usually like, on the smaller ones, you know, the subsets. But like, you know, pr. A lot of them have similar booking agents and stuff like that. So, like, there's overlap always. And. And it's. And a lot of also the. The top 50 of the metal. The, you know, even country artists are like, they're metalheads. They grew up listening.
- [45:04]
A
All of their band are made up of metalheads.
- [45:06]
B
Yes. All the touring musicians are always scene kids. And that's really funny. I. I had. I chatted with Johnny from Bill Murray and because I was like, how. You know, I've never been in Asheville. Like, how is it in Nashville? I know that's the country place, but also a lot of metalheads are there. And he. And he was also mentioning, like. Like, dude, yeah. Like everyone's a metalhead. Like, even if they write country, doesn't matter this or that. Like, everyone just is. They're hardcore dudes. They're from the scene. They're seeing kids. Like, whatever it might be. They all love that music, which is really cool. It's cool to see because again, if you were to listen to the music, you're like, that's. That is different than breeze proficient the
- [45:39]
A
way, like technically proficient, which I think that lineage allows you to then become really successful. Like, if you can play good metal, you can probably end up playing most other things because most of the things are going to be not derivative, but at least like less complex than most of them.
- [45:56]
B
Especially nowadays because. Because modern metal is so focused on production and. And songwriting, I guess, to a capacity depending on which subset. Because there's a subset of obviously, like I said, death metal, tech, death, all that stuff that's. That's still death metal. That's riff first. You know, figure everything else out. Like the Drummer is going 500 bpm or however fast he wants to go on the double kicks. And they're figuring that out, right? And it's super sick and it creates this very extreme, brutal, intense music which doesn't have necessarily a lot of production. You know, there's. There's not a synth layer in the background and that's like, whoa. What? You know. Meanwhile, now with a particular modern metal bands, it's like you record guitar and you have the MIDI ready to put the synth to it. Like, there's no question if you're gonna have synth layered in, the producer is gonna just do it for you. If you didn't think of it, it. Yeah, anyways. And then there's going to be usually quad tracks using before guitar tracks. Just deal with it. You know what I mean? The drums, you want those raw drums, buddy? Okay, sure. Go record the raw drums. We'll do. Yeah, it's all raw. Okay. You know, we'll figure it out later. Meanwhile, you know, the producer was like, yeah, okay. Obviously, you guys molesting everything. Yeah.
- [47:02]
A
Because, like, can you explain to me, I. I heard this story about the drummer from Slipknot just got relatively new drummer to Slipknot, which is kind of giving him a new fresh breeze of light. What's the story, though? Because I only know half of it.
- [47:17]
B
I don't know the. The back end story. I just know they. I mean, obviously they had Joey way back when, legendary, and then they had Jay for quite some time, and then, I don't know, a falling out or something. It's. It's the usual PR stuff of, like, creative differences. Yeah, man. And that's why when you see that, you're just like, okay. You know, you kind of move along. And I don't know any of those guys personally, so that's why I just.
- [47:38]
A
Just.
- [47:38]
B
And same thing. Most fans just go, oh, no, that sucks. And then they got Eli, who was super sick. He was in sepulture, if I'm not mistaken. And, yeah, he's. He's a badass drummer. And then, you know, people are stoked on that, and I don't think they've released music with him yet or anything.
- [47:53]
A
I've seen some of the videos of it happening live, though, which is.
- [47:56]
B
He's a beast.
- [47:58]
A
Some of the most insane shit.
- [47:59]
B
He's a beast. And that's why, like, that music back then, it's so aggressive and primal that do that 2000s era, because there was so much happening. You know, we're talking obviously about, like, the. The emo stuff and then the metal core stuff, but that new metal phase that broke through the barrier, I think bigger than any of their other kind of metal bands at that time, like the Slipknots, the Linkin Parks, the System of a Downs, you know, the fact that kids grow up now and they're like, I don't know, 10 or whatever. And you see, like, my favorite songs, Chop Suey, it's like, first of all, you're probably too young to. For that to be your favorite song, you know, like, for the lyrical context of that. But number two, how the fuck did you find that song? Because I found that when I was 10. You know what I mean? Like, that's crazy.
- [48:38]
A
Let's watch some of those videos. Chari, can I have the screen?
- [48:40]
B
Nostalgia, let's go.
- [48:41]
A
I need to. I want to watch some of the live stuff of the new Slipknot. This is eight months ago. This is about right.
- [48:48]
B
Yeah.
- [48:49]
A
He's also built like an absolute fucking brick shithouse.
- [48:53]
B
Yeah. I think for extreme Drumming like that's. That should be a requirement nowadays. It's such a physical thing.
- [49:02]
A
Yeah.
- [49:02]
B
You know, guitarists, we sit there, you strum a chord. You. You strum Breakdown.
- [49:05]
A
You can be as weenie as you want.
- [49:06]
B
You can be as weeny as you want. Exactly. But like drums, I mean, unless it's all a backtrack, you can't be weenie. You got some beef to it. Yeah, that's probably. That's.
- [49:22]
A
Imagine taking a drumstick to the face from that guy, man.
- [49:26]
B
Holy. Dude, if only I could be that snare.
- [49:28]
A
I know. No, thank you. But even with this. That's some sequencing going down the bottom, eh? Like some pads, some. Something here.
- [49:40]
B
Yeah, I'd imagine. I mean, most bands probably, they have usually the laptop because with the set or whatever or something.
- [49:47]
A
But there's something maybe like drum pads, whatever this is in front of us. Yeah, yeah. Just freakish, dude. And it's. I don't know, it's just cool that you've got someone who has kind of brought new eyes to a band that's been around for so long. They.
- [50:04]
B
Dude, Slipknot's. Oh, man, it's. Is it 30 years? 90. No. Okay. 99 was self titled. I don't know when the EP was eat, mate made, feed, repeat, whatever the. The DP was called with the. With the out. The first singer. They've been a band for like 30 years. That is psycho. That's like.
- [50:22]
A
But how long has Kill Switch been around?
- [50:25]
B
Oh my goodness. I don't know when they technically, because it's always weird. The album is not when the bands usually start. Usually they grind for five years in local shows and like their parents garage. So like when they four alive and just breathing was 2000. Oh my God. Two, one. Either two. Either 1, 2, 3 or 4. No, end of heartache was 2004. Four as daylight dies was 2006. I think it was 2002 around there. Old. Old. When they were. They're consistent. They've been going at it and they're timeless. When you make bangers like that, it's something that's so special.
- [51:01]
A
Kanye west, dude. Kanye West. If you make bangers, you can keep on doing it.
- [51:04]
B
You can keep on doing it.
- [51:05]
A
Metal's sort of becoming increasingly self aware and ironic, I think, especially in its positioning, the way the sort of people put it across. Why do you think that's happening? What's that say about the audience, the industry, the music?
- [51:18]
B
I think it has to do with a lot of things we actually talked about so far. It's like there's a lot of nostalgia built in with the new modern age and people going back and being like, excited about that. So when they also look back, I think that's part of the irony and somewhat of the joke because back then a lot of the metal was so like, random and like kids in their garage, like, the Job for a Cowboy or like, especially during the MySpace days when like the song titles were like, tell Jimmy to get the fuck out of the garage or like, whatever it is, you know what I mean? Like, they're just such random names back then where that, for that, you know, these bands weren't thinking. I think a lot of these bands also were like, well, we're not going to be a big band. You know, people don't have to remember these names, they don't have to remember these, these breakdown melodies, these, these sound clips, these, you know, vocal moments, like, who's, you know, we're going to be playing to our few fans that like us and we're happy with that. So I think part of that modern day of, of embracing that is revisiting though that era because it was so raw like that and kind of making the joke about it again in a very odd way.
- [52:23]
A
Parody yourself.
- [52:24]
B
You kind of parodying yourself. But then also how the industry has evolved in a way where there's a lot of particular ways to do modern music. Even though, funny enough, it's more genre fluid than ever, I would say in terms of like, again, you listen to like a sleep token and they have a black metal part with like a pop song. Like, that's, that's cool. That's crazy. But it still comes down to you gotta have good songwriting or like, no one's gonna care after the first initial. Like TikTok that goes.
- [52:52]
A
Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, that's different.
- [52:54]
B
Yeah. Oh, that's, that's cool. Okay, like, not if you don't add it to the playlist. No one, it's gone, right? Like, it's in the abyss. And then it's like, okay, before we continue.
- [53:01]
A
As you're probably aware, I'm not a massive drinker. At least not anymore. But even if you too are not drinking, sometimes you just want something cold, frosty and tasty without the fear of a hangover the next day. Which is why I'm such a huge fan of Athletic Brewing Company. Thank you very much. Their non alcoholic brews taste just as good as the real thing. They've got IPAs, Hazy Goldens. They're so good that you'll forget that there's no alcohol in them until you wake up the next day feeling fantastic. It means that you can enjoy the ritual without the wreckage. No hangover, no 3am panic, no wasted Sunday. Recovering from Saturday. That is why I partnered with them. You can find Athletic Brewing Company's bestselling lineup at grocery or liquor stores near you. Or best option, you can get the full variety pack of four flavours shipped right to your door. Right now, get up to 15% off your first online order by going to the link in the description below or heading to athleticbrewing.com ModernWisdom using the code ModernWisdom at checkout, that's athleticbrewing.com ModernWiry and ModernWisdom at checkout near Beer Terms and conditions apply. Athletic Brewing Company Fit for all Times. It is interesting if you look at like Token's a good example of this. The Summoning is their most played track, I think.
- [54:10]
B
Oh yeah, I remember that moment.
- [54:12]
A
But. But that breaking through, like what makes a song, especially a metal song, break through to that kind of a level versus this is a fucking awesome song. Like Caramel is one of the most catchy songs that I've ever heard. But it doesn't look like it's gonna get to the level of the Summoning. Okay, what is that? Is it the distribution? Is it the repeat listen ability? Is it constantly bringing in new people? Or is it just rinsing the living out of the playlist of the ones that. You know what I mean? I always look at the top songs of a band and think, huh, why that one? That one.
- [54:51]
B
I think because I was a. I was around for that moment particularly because I felt, you know, I listened to Sleep Token when they were the underground band because this always happens with these bands. They're the underground band that you see in like Reddit, you know, subreddits of like, yeah, you guys hear this band or see this band live, they just played to like 50 people. They're really sick. You know. I really like this record. You know what I mean? Like, oh that, that's cool. You listen to like the, this. The offering. You heard the offering. Dude, this is so cool and like different. It's got piano and like, you know, you can tell like it's. It's kind of pop mixed with like meshuggah and shit. And like that's sick, right? And then there reach reaches this point and I see this has happened with multiple of these modern metal bands where they have a really good catalog and that's the smartest thing I've seen those bands do do with up to that point. Like they just. They're consistent make bangers. Don't. Don't just chase a trend or do this like for every songs of Bangers, even though there's not that many people listening, those people are very, very happy. Right. So these bands nowadays making a good catalog of bangers grinding. And then there's a moment and then that moment has to coincide usually with another huge banger, one of their best bangers. So that's a band where they were having the momentum for when I saw again. I didn't get into them when they did the ep, but I started to get into them when they did like the offering that album and then the album after that. Something about Tomb is where you fucking.
- [56:12]
A
This place will become your tomb.
- [56:13]
B
Thank you. Yeah, this place will become your tomb. And even Alkaline. And I actually thought they were about to explode with that song because I heard that was like this.
- [56:20]
A
It's got everything.
- [56:21]
B
It's got everything. This is sick. Like, okay, do the thing. Because the offering. I already saw all that stuff happening and then Alkaline was like, oh, cool. But there wasn't a moment around it. It was just, oh, another really sick banger. And now this band's a little bit more hyped, kind of like grinding their. I'm gonna use, you know, nerdy ass gaming terms like your elo. Like, you know, you're ranking like really slowly but consistently. You're not losing any matches. But the rate at which you're gaining points and MMR is kind of like at a particular pace. You're not gonna all of a sudden shoot up unless something happens. So they had all this built up hype with the underground. I think kind of like being like, this is great. And that's where the band was underground. And then they dropped the summoning and. Because it had a moment in it and the song was really good and the band had this massive catalog and then the Internet took notice. It was just. It was the perfect storm.
- [57:10]
A
How much do you think that can be engineered?
- [57:12]
B
I think it can be pretty engineered. It's something where I don't think you can engineer making the bangers part of it. Right. That's be good. Don't. Don't suck. And that's something a lot of bands I think are starting to take a lot more seriously and not just be like, well, let's just chase the trend and whatever works with the gimmicks. Right? Make a banger and that's. I love that that's number one. Right. That you can't engineer. Make a banger. Don't suck. Right. The other stuff I think you can engineer to a point, especially in modern day with the Internet, you know, you. Again, I haven't seen it happen.
- [57:44]
A
You've given me the eyes of someone that knows way too much.
- [57:47]
B
This is the thing. I. I know enough not to a point of talking with a bunch of people and being at someone being like, yeah, I did this. Yeah, we caused this exact way. But in terms of seeing it from the sidelines of a music listener and understanding it and also understanding the industry and how social media works as a
- [58:02]
A
content creator, how come so many of these different accounts seeded that rumor about that record coming out at that time on different.
- [58:10]
B
I wonder if again, where I don't actually have zero backend knowledge of that. But you see that and you're like, like I see what you're doing.
- [58:18]
A
Something's happening.
- [58:19]
B
Like that's cool. But it's. And, but this is before it was cool to do maybe something like that too, right? Like it's now it's like, you know, Reddit is something taken seriously by the scene. You know, Like, I'm not surprised if people post Reddit posts of their brand new band and it's like the label actually getting a new account or something where they're posting a bunch or clip farming with that, you know what I mean? And trying to find clips that make that big where it's just some random clip guy they found in, you know, Europe that they paid like 20, 20 bucks.
- [58:44]
A
Just an army of Vietnamese repo.
- [58:46]
B
Yes, right. And that's something where I. That's gonna happen more and more. That happens a lot in content.
- [58:52]
A
Jared, give me the screen. I want to show you. Keep going. I want to show you this geese thing while you're talking about it.
- [58:56]
B
Oh, dude, I forgot about the quack. Dude, let's go.
- [58:58]
A
I know. Have you heard of Geese? No, I hadn't, but I'd heard that there was a band called Geese and
- [59:03]
B
I thought, oh, that's Knock Knocked Goose. Is it Knocked Goose Knocked Goose.
- [59:07]
A
Dude, you could imagine that I want to use whatever that AI thing is to do sooner. Yeah, sooner. Take the band knocked loose and replace all of the members with geese and tell me what that sound is.
- [59:20]
B
See, that's what AI should have been used for. That is the best use of it for fun, but it has changed.
- [59:29]
A
Okay. The fanfare around the band Geese was actually a psyop tldr, a tech company that has learned how to Fantano forever. Of course, the algorithm created the momentum that made Geese go viral. Record industry has always done things like this and everything on the Internet. This was it. So it's this Wired article. The Brooklyn band Geese was labeled as an industry plant by those who questioned its sudden ubiquity. Maybe it was Brooklyn and Drockers. Geese shot to the heights of rock and roll fame in the end of 2025, released in late September, dominated the top 10 lists. Explosion on the scene seemingly out of nowhere led to inevitable backlash. Haters called the Messiahs and questioned the seemingly sudden rise to stardom, calling them an industry plant. Others, while acknowledging their talent, attributed their fame to savvy marketing. When a band Blows up in late March, the co founders of the digital marketing company Chaotic Good Projects, who provide per its Instagram digital experiments and musical mayhem, appeared on the Billboard's on the Record podcast. In the episode south by Southwest, he explained how viral marketing methods work. Wow. The firm creates networks of social media pages on TikTok and uses them to drive the band's music into the recommendation algorithm. Songs are dropp into the backgrounds of videos, live clips are shared, sometimes burner accounts, comments and whole ecosystems of interactions can be fabricated out of digital cloth, stoking and sometimes completely manufacturing discourse around an artist. These ginned up interactions push the songs and the discussion around them higher up platforms Algorithm rankings Social media platforms increasingly where real fans discover new music. We can drive impressions on anything at this point, spelman told Billboard. We know how to go viral. We have thousands of pages. Spelman has dubbed the process trend simulation. The campaigns themselves are referred to by Chaotic Good as narrative or UGC Feedback. So confirmed the engineered campaigns for both Geese and Cameron Winter I don't know who that is.
- [61:24]
B
I don't know who that is.
- [61:25]
A
We helped distribute clips of them performing and doing some interviews on TikTok, said via email understand Industry plant discourse is inevitable. We've had the pleasure of being geese fans since 2021. Yeah dude. I mean, this kind of marketing seems to be what it takes to cut through the algorithmic noise. But the problem with this is that you end up with kind of a race to the bottom.
- [61:45]
B
It gamifies it.
- [61:46]
A
If no matter how good the track is, I can't win unless I do that. That now becomes not a performance enhancer or even a cheeky kind of exploit. It becomes the minimum level of marketing in order for me to get something good out of my track.
- [62:03]
B
Yeah, it's I think the scene like that, there's such gamification of it because, again, the metal scene's a little behind usually the content scene, like the more mainstream scene, like that st happens in the, you know, in YouTube and, like the content creator scene for a while, you know, like, that's something where it's like, oh, okay, that's. That's not necessarily new, like, people using clips or there's like, people doing burner accounts and stuff like that and promoting, like, okay, like that. That's. That's. That's the game. You know, you see these people on these Twitch streamers with like 20,000 live concurrent, and you're like, who are you? What is.
- [62:36]
A
Well, the guy on the CEO of Cake said pretty much every big creator's view botting. You saw that clip a little while ago.
- [62:42]
B
Yeah, that's. I mean, I did not know how prevalent that was until now. It's like a thing to talk about and it's like, oh, you know what I mean? But, like, yeah, obviously in, like, the content scene, that's something. It's like, all right, dude. I don't know. I grew up in, like, good old 2014 YouTube where, like, PewDiePie, you know, was doing dumb in Sweden and stuff, and, like, watching that and getting inspired by, like, the OGs. And it's like the. Now all this stuff has been gamified so much because there's so much weight, like, monetization ways. And there's so many, like, just reasons that these bands, you know, want to figure it out, break through the incidents. Right, right. Incentives. And with stuff like that, again, I. I haven't noticed. That's the. That's so funny. The band's name is Geese. That's one where it's like, yeah, that. That can happen. You know what I mean? Where if, again, a label just, like, knows what they're doing in a particular way and they just want to, like,
- [63:36]
A
push it, like, well, look, I fucking adore them. They're probably my favorite band of the last 12 or 18 months. But President had an unusually large launch off the back of being on Future History and riding the anonymous pseudonymous mask Sleep Token thing in a not too dissimilar sound that's really of the moment and is fucking great. And their songs are straight bangers. I don't know. I haven't listened to Knocked Goose, but, like, I don't think there's a band Locked Geese.
- [64:04]
B
I haven't listened to it with President, though. That's the thing. And they're like, the epitome of you go on Twitter now and you're like, you'll see a new president song. And then you see people say industry plan. And that's where it's tricky because stuff like the Geese thing maybe happened and it's like, oh, okay, like I guess that's, that's going if that's what happened. Right. But a band like President, if you bring it down, okay, it's a guy who was in other really big bands,
- [64:26]
A
lots of other radio. Lots of other long time.
- [64:28]
B
For a long time. You know, they, it's. I use gaming references a decent amount to kind of explain stuff. It's like, okay, so he has, he has Max characters. Maybe they don't have the best gear. And he rolled an alt and knew exactly how to get all the gear. Yeah, okay, like I, when I see that I'm like the guy. They know what they're doing. You know what I mean? It's.
- [64:44]
A
Well, think about like exactly what we're talking about here. I don't know how good Geese's music is. It's still strange referring them as Geese. I don't know how good their music is. But that was their fourth album and like this one is the one that said you're an industry plant. You go, well, is it that or is it just really fucking good guerrilla marketing on a ground floor. What's the difference between doing that and a flyer campaign where you're giving out an interesting flyer, fake $1 bills that have got the band's QR code on them or something that you can redeem. You know, a classic old school marketing campaign that just seems like people are always going to feel slightly uncertain and a bit icky about somebody getting something that they don't feel is deserved.
- [65:26]
B
Yeah. I think in the metal scene it's particularly tricky because the metal, metal fans are hardcore. Like they're, they support I think harder than majority of any other scenes. And that's amazing. It's really cool to see in a scene where like if you're a metal fan of a band and they're smaller most of the time, if they're in your town, you will go take the trip to the show, you will go buy merch, you will actually buy the CD even though you have Spotify or itunes. You know, I mean like it's something that's cool to see in that scene. So I think a lot of metal fans are more, are more invested in like the actual band and it means a lot more to them than just like, oh, another like you know, pop record or rap record.
- [66:04]
A
This is going to be a part of my life. I'm going to personally invest myself into this band and their journey and I'm going to buy their merch and their tickets.
- [66:10]
B
Which is amazing, but also has the weird off, you know, the bad part of it of, okay, well now if this band does something maybe, maybe shifts their style. You don't like metal. Metalheads will be the loudest to say this sucks ass. Now they'll also be.
- [66:23]
A
Well, it feels like a personal insult.
- [66:25]
B
Yes, exactly. Because I think it's. They're much more attached to these bands.
- [66:28]
A
I'm sure that some people are very attached to Megan Thee Stallion, but something tells me less. So yes, if she takes a pivot and does acoustic country right than if Sleep Token were to do that would be hard.
- [66:39]
B
She should do baddycore.
- [66:40]
A
That would be good. She already kind of is baddycore.
- [66:42]
B
She's baddie core with. Just put the fucking guitars, dude.
- [66:45]
A
Like, why don't you reach out to Megan Thee Stallion, get her on stream.
- [66:48]
B
Okay.
- [66:49]
A
And you can do. Hey, tell me about this new fast songwriting thing.
- [66:53]
B
Oh, dude, yeah.
- [66:54]
A
You're launching a new channel.
- [66:56]
B
No, so not a new channel. So basically I. A thing I used to do was like I did this series called how to Metal. It was like writing song. It was. How do I word this for. I would do shorts of like. Because a lot of people loved a lot of these bands and I love a lot of these bands. I grew up, like I said, listening to a bunch of bands and I'm like, at this point, I've written enough music. I've also listened to enough music and I understand how it kind of works. I kind of describing factors we were talking about like particular types of BPM or these intricacies of like Metal Rick the Auto. Yeah, yeah. Metal Rick Beato. Respect to Rick beyond. He's sick, by the way. And he's a man. I used to do these how to in 30 seconds. So I would kind of do a short of like, okay, you like I. I grew up loving under oath. So like, okay, I want to. Here's how to under us in 30 seconds. You know what I mean? Because I also was having fun of like understanding short content. I. I'm again, I come from the old YouTube world of Make a video, not make a clip. You know, I was like, I'm like, what the. A clip, right? How am I supposed to make something thing? Especially because I didn't grow up with like vine on on my end. It Was like, how, like, how do I enter? You know, how do I bring something of value to someone for like in like 10, 30 seconds? This is weird. Like, I need to do more. So I kind of tried with. With this and I was like, so for under oath example, I'd be like, you know how to under 30 seconds. You know, dissonant chords, you know, pterodactyl screech, you know, like you do stereotypical things. Sometimes they're more funny meme attributes and sometimes they're more like musician knowledge attributes. And you kind of combine those and like at the end of 30 seconds, I'd play kind of like an 8, 8 second riff of that kind of outlines that sound and try to get as close as I can to that style while not actually taking any of their songs, obviously, because that defeats the purpose. So I did that for so many bands. And when they're. I saw people are like, yo, this is sick. Like, full version. When. When are you doing the full. And I'm like, you really, like, you want the full version of this? Like, okay, so I would go on stream and I would write the whole thing in two and a half hours, two to three hours live. Because I thought it was fun, you know, I'm like, all right, well, I already have the hardest part to write the riff and the vibe. So, like, I kind of got commit anyways. I would do that and then I would put it on DSPs and kind of make it a whole rollout on YouTube. So I did that. And that was probably the peak of when I was doing YouTube and like going hard and doing a lot of crazy shit. And I would do that once a week, release a song once a week, do one of those once a week. It was a little psychotic, but it was fun. And then fast forward kind of a year later, I took a break for many reasons, but especially burnout. And doing that for a while. And then when I came back, I noticed, hey, when I was gone, I was taking care of myself. I was going outside and working out, caring about, learning. I missed learning so much about macros micros even. I was like, oh my God, what the fuck is this world? I haven't taken time to learn new things. And with that also learning production, learning more songwriting, learning a lot of that. And I noticed I spent most days just also writing music, hanging with my wife and feeding squirrels. Like going to the park and going to Costco, like that was my life. And coming back, I came back with a song which was really sick. A nocturnal track that I Was like, yo, let's combine like these really obscure references like dance electronic music and funk and thal music like Valjarta and Marar and all this stuff and see what happens. And kind of made that a new project. And as I came back, the focus of me wanting to write, I started to get a little distracted of like, oh, like this is fun. Like YouTube. Yeah, I guess let's make you like, videos and stuff. And like, I had a lot of fun doing that. But very quickly, to avoid going back to, you know, the cycle of oh, shit. I caught myself very quickly because again, that time off, I never had time off. I did YouTube for 11 years at that point. Yeah, 11 years straight. I don't think I ever did not upload for a week. And again, again, best job in the world. It's, it's. It's hard work, but in a different capacity. You know, it's very mentally exhausting. There is no such thing as clock out. It is. You think about it, it's all you do. It's all you think about, right. Forever. But obviously in terms of like vers a real job, you know, it's much easier. Like, I much prefer to do that. Right. But yeah, I, I came back and I was starting to do these things and I'm like, oh, this is fun too. Like, yeah, I kind of want to explore, like I want to test the grounds. Like, what do I feel like this is. Is, you know, I left the Internet and took my break and have this new perspective on, on life to a capacity, but particularly about what I want to do with my life every day and with, with what I want to give to people and share with people and what I want to spend my time doing. And it's been a bit of a trial period. Until kind of a few months ago, I was like, okay, like, I understand. I tried a little of this, I tried a little that. Again, like, that's definitely not for me. I definitely don't want to be the reaction guy because, like, I feel like I can offer the world more than, than watching a song, you know, and it's really tricky because particularly with what I've done with the channel and what I've done with myself is I love sharing music. That's. That's what it came down to. That's why, you know, I started. I. When I started my channel, I would do guitar covers because I didn't know how to talk really. You know, I was just an awkward kid, you know, in just finishing high school and I didn't really Know how to talk to people. I didn't really. I didn't know what being a YouTuber was. I just played guitar and I had a lot of cool music, music on guitar that I want to share with people. So the channel has always kind of been revolved around sharing new music in different capacities. Whether later on its reactions, whether it's through memes, et cetera, et cetera. And then again, nowadays it's like, okay, well, how do I do that while still not going back to kind of old ways of like, oh, well, here's the news, let's talk about it. But like, the news is kind of always fucked up. You know, there's not. Unfortunately, in the metal scene, there are really good things that happen and really amazing. Like, hell yeah. Like, that's a big feat, you know, like Knock Loose playing Kimmel or like Spirit Box playing, like the Grammys. Like, that's amazing, right? But there's also a lot of like, oh, this guy got canceled. And like that guy texted someone at her age. And you're like, okay, this is not, you know, I don't want to go live and talk about this with people. This is not what. I want to bring energy into my life. First of all, I don't want to absorb this.
- [72:46]
A
But you're kind of obliged to because you're in the scene and this is news in the scene.
- [72:50]
B
Exactly.
- [72:50]
A
Hey, when are you going to talk about such and such, dude, when I
- [72:53]
B
was gone and Ozzy died, that was so sad. And like, the only thing I was like, man, like, I grew up, you know. One of the first metal songs I ever heard is Crazy Train in general. And like, man, this sucks. And I was gone from the Internet, so the only thing I had was like, thank, I do not have to talk about this because this is like, this is not my place. This is not something I want to go live and discuss and like, share it. You know what I mean? Like, this is. It's. It's really tricky because you also want to with a community and you build a community for so long, you know, just like you celebrate the wins, you have to celebrate the else and the sad parts, right? And when there's some things too, when it's like, I don't add value to this conversation beside maybe slightly consoling a few people. But it's also like, I'm not in the right space to do that anyway, so I'm not, not. I'm not going to bring any positive energy to this by doing anything with this. So, like, a lot of things like that happen and it really sucks. And that's something. Again, I was in a space of what I was doing before, which I had fun. It was great. And I feel like community wise, like it became something really strong and a lot of people would go and look for and like, hey, there's news. This, this, that. But when it came down to it, it still was like, it was too much of like a slippery slope of. Of like, hey, this really cool thing happened. Great.
- [74:10]
A
Yeah.
- [74:11]
B
This really shittiest thing happened.
- [74:13]
A
Oh, guess I need to talk about that as well.
- [74:15]
B
Yeah. And it's ironic because obviously in the content space, the negative stuff will do better and a lot of people get really excited.
- [74:23]
A
Dude, Fantana versus Radke was like the heavyweight battle of 2025.
- [74:29]
B
The scene's lovely, Chris. It's a crazy place where, like from the sidelines I see and like, I'm kind of like, I'm happy I can just chill on the sidelines.
- [74:36]
A
You are aware that this is the same in like every industry though, right? Like in podcasting, it's just as tight. There's entire ecosystem dedicated to reporting on the drama that's going on, not reporting on what they're reporting on.
- [74:49]
B
Yes.
- [74:50]
A
Reporting on what's happening between the people who do the reporting.
- [74:53]
B
Yes. Between who do the reporting and then reacting to the video.
- [74:56]
A
What I can't wait for is when people react to the people who do the reaction. I want derivative content all the way up. I want to be able to have. What were those fucking. What was the reason that the entire financial crisis happened? What were they? CFDs or whatever they were called? Like the. Those like fucking derivative things where people were bundling together a ton of debt. I want the bundle together, debt of the bundle together, debt of the bundle together. Like all of the gossip of the gossip of the gossip. And I want to be like fucking two guys at the top. Yeah, I feel.
- [75:24]
B
Yeah, that goes on a lot in the content space for sure. And I think in the metal scene too, like, it. It has bled through a lot. And that's why it's like, if I'm gonna. Like, when I left, I was like, I'm content with my legacy and I genuinely am. I'm like, if I actually.
- [75:35]
A
You're happy to just leave it for us, brother.
- [75:37]
B
I am so. I am pro, I am con. I'm proud of what we did and the thing I brought to the Internet for those years, you know what I mean? Like, I. I look back on it and sure, I screwed up and did Dumb, you know, I mean, like, so does everybody. It's one of those where it's like, I am proud that I, I feel like over those years I was a net positive to the space in terms of which I, which I worked and ended things with. You know what I mean? And that, that also like, I'm cool with this. Like, if this is actually it, that's great. You know what I mean? Like, I'm gonna take a break, but like, I'm not gonna pressure myself of like I need to come back. Cause I need to be at peace. And I told my wife this too. I was like, if I leave at all, I need to actually be at peace that I'm gone.
- [76:17]
A
Like, and leaving, not taking a break.
- [76:18]
B
Yeah, like I, I need to have that mentality. However, I don't. I also don't wanna always close things, you know, So I don't wanna just be like definitive, like. Cause I know, I love it, right? So that's something really tricky. I love the space and I love this. And even if I do something in a different capacity, it's like, okay, I want, like I'm gonna. Let's. Let's take a break because I need to figure out my. I need to take a break anyways. But I need to still at this point be content if that's not just a break. You know what I mean? And like, especially. Cause I've never taken a break. So doing that, you, you, you, you learn a lot of. About yourself and you learn a lot of things about what's priorities in life and just like what matters and what was that like?
- [76:54]
A
A lot of people, even if they don't make videos on the Internet, can relate to being hard charging. You've said. I've never actually taken the time to not just burn. Right. This always on candle at both ends thing. Talk to me about the deceleration of attention, progress, even your habits. You wake up and research what's going on on Rock Sound or whatever. And then that would be part of the thing. And your girlfriend, wife, you're like, well, fucking, you know, like she does the same thing as me or similar thing to me and like, maybe. Cause I'm not doing this thing anymore. Who's my identity? Who am I after this? Can you just explain the suite of challenges and how you dealt with them as you went through your hiatus?
- [77:34]
B
Oh, that's, that's a big chat probably with the psychologist for like two hours. But I'll. I'll dump it down to more like. Yeah, it's, it One of the big things you mentioned, too, like, my wife does the same thing I do, which is awesome. Like, she's a musician. She's. She produces. She. And she used to also play guitar and do guitar content too. And, like, that's so cool. And one of those things of just being like, I'm so lucky doing what I do, and especially what I did at that time, and I'm so grateful for it. And that's why it's so tricky to be so grateful for something and want to also show that, you know, Because I don't want to people to also be like, hey, dude, like, you're. You're not feeling, like, what, you get to be a YouTuber and what, you're sad, like, what's your problem? You know what I mean? And it's like, yeah, because life can happen. You know, there's. There's other aspects of life, life, but also it being a thing of, like, you know, like, my wife is here and, like, she also does the same thing. However, I'm still playing, like, single player in my career because of how I set it up for the past 12 years. You know, my career is based around me doing this, this, and this and this and this and this. Meanwhile, my wife's there also doing her own thing, which she's never complained about. She's the most supportive, amazing woman ever. But it's still one of those things of, like, I remember I would, you know, something would happen in the scene or like, a comment. Like, I'd be like, oh, I gotta go do this video and do this thing. Which, again, less job. But it's one of those of like. And I see my wife there, like, writing music there by herself, and I'm like, I just want to write music to you. Why the fuck am I doing?
- [78:56]
A
Well, you're living life. This is one of the problems when you have two people who have big lives, especially lives that start to get separated. The most meaningful things that you do in your work life occur separately.
- [79:07]
B
Yes.
- [79:07]
A
Like, you have your highest highs of your career and you're not sharing them with your person.
- [79:12]
B
I don't. Yeah. And I'm so. I am so fortunate that my person does all those things.
- [79:17]
A
So that's why at least she can speak the language even if she's not there when it happens.
- [79:21]
B
Exactly. And she's always. She's always been so supportive, like, do your thing. And that's something I'm so grateful for. And, you know, that was something I noticed when I. When I took a break and Just spending time, us doing like, just writing dumb music, having fun writing. Not even metal shit. We wrote like funk beats and like Brazilian funk and like electronic music and dance stuff. And it was like so fun where like there was no one around. It was just. Just us.
- [79:40]
A
No pressure.
- [79:41]
B
Yeah. Writing music. We would turn on like the strobe light just for the vibe for us, you know, there's no cameras. We didn't care. Right. It's something so special. But like, that was a big thing of like, this is so special. You know what I mean? And I want to make every day like this if I can. You know, I'm fortunate enough to have a career around this. So why. Why not spend time figuring out what life can be now that I'm like an adult? Because when I started this, I was 17, 18. Your. Your brain is not fucking fully formed until like you're like 30. I don't know, like, you know, like as. As. Especially as a metalhead, you know, like, it takes a while. And that's something where you. You grow so much and you become just a diff. Not a fully different person. But you just evolve as a human obviously as you get older. And you know, that's something where. All I ever knew was this. Like, I went to school, I even finished my degree. I have a shitty accounting degree that I can use as toilet paper because it didn't do fuck all for me in my life. But actually when I was going to school, it gave me the contrast and context to actually appreciate what I did even more, which is something kind of funny. So I thank going to school. But also it didn't itself do anything for me other than provide something that was a distraction for me. Just wanting them the thing I wanted to do more. But that made me want to do this even more because I saw the other side. I was like, like, oh my goodness. Like that's that life. Like, I'm so unhappy doing that. Like I can do it, but it's not. That's not how I want to live my life, right? So I put so much emphasis of not trying to make it because even back then, you know, I was making $0.50 on YouTube AdSense a year. Like it was hilarious because all my stuff was covers, so copyright claims. But I was doing it because I loved it. I just didn't care. I was like, I'll figure it out. I'll teach lessons, I'll do this, this. I'll figure it out. Right? But I had so much fun, especially during that time of just figuring it out. And putting my whole life into this. And then when you start to actually the like a year goes by or two years go by and you're like, oh, I, I'm paying rent in my own place. Like, I, I, I wrote a track with this person that I looked up with. Like, I looked up to, you know what I mean? Like when I was a young kid, like, oh, I, I got to check with this person. Oh, like, you know what I mean? Like, it just becomes your whole life and you're like, whoa, like this is overwhelming because there was no expectations of me going into what I, what I do with my life, you know, in terms of content creation, writing, music, that whole world. And for it to actually, for me to somewhat manifest things without having the intent of, you know, it's almost like a delusion in a way of like, I was delusionally like, oh yeah, we'll make it, we'll get the million subs, we'll write music and pretend we won't be homeless, you know, like, but it was delusional, me talking that somehow manifested it to happen. And then when it does happen, you're like, oh my God, I need to give more of me now and more and more and more and more because I'm never going to go back to that kid that stared in class writing polymeters and polyrhythms on my fucking sheets in accounting expense class. I'm not going to do that. That's not going to be me. So there's so many like, emotions and elements that get embedded and then your, you know, my brain particularly basically evolved and grew up with that. Just this is it. Bring the most value to this space, be the most productive. Don't be fucking lazy. Give it your all. Fuck going to Jake's party on Friday or whatever. Like, what? Why? You know, that's, that's not important. You know, go, go be something. Go, go be someone with your life. And that that was the end. All be all. Which I'm very happy I did with my life because my life is what it is now. But at the same time, it's such a tricky thing, which I had no balance in life. I never understood balance of, like, act like there's days I didn't go outside, which, you know, like is again, do you get to work at home and make music? Shut the up, you know, you don't have to go outside, but at the same time it's like, no, dude, like, I didn't go, I didn't get sun. Like, you need that for your Life, like that's why the sun's there to absorb, you know, like, you need that for your help. So like, it was really tricky for me to learn work, life, balance, because my life was, you know, work, it was my passion and it was so embedded and because it was such a self rewarding circuit almost of like, I do get to do what I love and it's my job and it's everything I care about in my life, life, why would I do anything else? And you quickly realize how unstable you can, like your life can become because then you, your self worth is basically only this. This is all you are as a human is what you, you know, your, your YouTube channel or this, the song you write or the video you make. That's who you are as a human. So if it does poorly, you're a shitty person too, you know? So that's a lot to unpack. Yeah, but that's kind of like what taking that break. Like, I, I needed to get that balance. I needed to be a human. I need to be like, I'm an adult. Like, I basically haven't had this moment of clarity of doing anything other than this in my life. Like, who am I? You know, Like, I still love breakdowns and breeze and you know, 808s that explode my speakers, right? Like, do I, like, I think so, right? I, I still love playing guitar. I still love this. And that moment and that space brought me a lot closer to the things of all of those things and made me realize, like, I, I live for this. You know, it's not just because I'm in this cycle, like, I live for this, but I need balance.
- [85:08]
A
That was a big thing because if you're doing something and you've never stopped, momentum can carry you through and you don't actually take a moment to go, do I want to do this?
- [85:17]
B
Yeah.
- [85:17]
A
Is this actually my thing? It was.
- [85:19]
B
It's also really tricky when again there's. I'm very grateful for what I've had, have and the channel and everything and the people that support me over all these years. Like, I still see people from when I started, like, dude, I remember the guitar covers. And I'm like, dude, I haven't done that in 10 years. You're. You're OG. That's so cool, right? And like, you, I know I'm very fortunate in that capacity. So that's another thing of like, again, who are you to complain, like, tough it out, you know? And that's something I would tell myself in a very unhealthy way.
- [85:50]
A
A quick aside, there is a stat that genuinely surprised me when I first heard it. 95% of people don't get enough fiber. Not because they're being careless, but because hitting your daily fiber target through food alone is actually quite hard. But that's why Momentous Built Fibre plus See, fiber isn't just a digestion thing. It's the foundation of your gut health, which drives how well you absorb nutrients, how stable your energy is and how quickly you recover. If your gut isn't dialed in, everything else that you're doing is working at a fraction of its potential. Fiber is a three in one formula built to address digestion, gut barrier strength and blood sugar stability all at once. And this cinnamon flavor is unreal, you might think. Fiber. Wow. I bet that tastes great. Well, yeah, actually it does. Doubters, I really enjoyed this. Best of all, Momentous offers a 30 day money back guarantee. So if you're not sure you can buy fiber plus try it for 29 days. If you don't love it, they'll just give you your money back and they ship international. Right now you can get up to 35% off your first subscription and that 30 day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to livemomentous.com modernwisdom and using the code modernwisdom at checkout. That's L I V E M O M E N t o u s.com ModernWisdom and ModernWisdom a checkout. I have a theory about this. I'd be interested to know what you think. How many bands or comedians do you know of that have suffered with creator burnout or something similar?
- [87:16]
B
Oh, I think majority of them in a capacity no matter what, to the
- [87:19]
A
point that they've had to take a break from doing the band at all.
- [87:24]
B
A few of them, yeah, I think some. Yeah, yeah, some.
- [87:27]
A
How many creators that make YouTube videos do you know that have done the same thing? I'm stepping away from YouTube. I need to take a break. Ryan Trahan just fired his entire team. I saw him and his wife walking down the street the other day and he was like, yeah man, it's just me and my iPhone and I'm gonna be doing 12 hour days like logging all of this things. I didn't want to manage people anymore. Here's my point. Yeah, creator burnout happens to YouTubers and podcasters and Instagram people at a rate so much higher than you would anticipate if you just heard what their jobs were. So you Go. Okay, so on one side of the table, you've got bands that have to be on tour all the time. They're away from their families, they miss their kids growing up, they don't spend time with their partner. They're in sweaty tour buses. Sometimes they're nice, sometimes they're not nice. They've got places to be, they have to travel the world, the time zones, the sleep deprivation, all of this shit. The pressure, the highs, the lows, the pullback, all that. The unpredictability of whether the band's gonna make it, all the rest of it. Like, if you look at that as a lifestyle, if you just say what it's like, it doesn't sound the same for comedians, the same for DJs. DJs a little bit different, but the same for comedians. Go. You're on the road all the time. You're with one other person who's your supporter, maybe a tour manager, if you're lucky. You go to these random places and say these things and you've got the pressure of whether or not you're gonna perform form. And what do you do if you're a content creator? Well, you do it from the comfort of your home. You get to have dinner delivered to your house every single day. You've got Uber Eats.
- [88:50]
B
You can go to the gym in
- [88:51]
A
the morning if you want to. Yeah, sure, maybe you don't get to see sunlight that much or whatever, but, like, you're doing what you love from the comfort of your home. You don't even need to put pants on. Like, this is the dream, the objective difficulty of your job and my job. Way lower than it is of something like comedy or being in a band.
- [89:09]
B
Exactly.
- [89:09]
A
So why is it the case, then, that content creators, people that do YouTube and podcasting, burn out at a way higher clip than bands and comedians? It's my opinion that that's because of the speed and the amplitude of the feedback. Bands get screaming fans immediately. You do something cool, sing a good note, you immediately see the positive reinforcement of the people in the front row and the back, the hundreds, thousands of rows beyond that. You get to see it happening. You get, you are a comedian, you tell a joke, immediately you get that feedback. Dopamine. Da da da da da. We do a video. I mean, for you, you're live streaming, so it's a little bit different. The speed is quick, but the amplitude is so small, it's just bleeps and bloops on a screen.
- [89:51]
B
It's emotes.
- [89:53]
A
Correct. Thank you. Good. Very Good, well done. Thank you. And then you hit a million subs and you go, wow, that was just a bigger number on a screen.
- [90:01]
B
That was a crazy moment.
- [90:04]
A
Like, but still, if you were to do the equivalent in a band. Right. Whatever that would be to sell out your first arena, let's say. Yeah, right. Because I think that that's probably comparable in terms of like where you get to in your career versus where you get to as a band. Like it wouldn't be a stadium. A stadium would probably be 10 mil.
- [90:23]
B
Yeah.
- [90:23]
A
So it's. I've played my first sort of 7,000, 8,000 cap show.
- [90:27]
B
Yeah.
- [90:28]
A
Wow. When I sold it out in advance, that's my million play sub thing. How different is the experience of playing in front of 7,000 people sold out in an arena for you versus this moment that you do something that's really meaningful to you. And thank you so much to the community for being here. But it's so much smaller and quieter comparatively. And this is why I think they create a burnout. That's a long winded way of my bro science theory. That probably isn't true of me saying I think creators burn out because they don't have sufficiently loud and sufficiently quick feedback mechanisms to give them the positive reinforcement that bands and comedians and DJs get when they go on the road.
- [91:06]
B
I think also the creator lifestyle is more naturally encouraging of being a bit of a degen. You know, like in a fun way.
- [91:13]
A
It's like not seeing sun.
- [91:14]
B
Yeah. Like, yeah, literally not seeing sun. Like doing nothing.
- [91:17]
A
Being on your own, being.
- [91:18]
B
Yeah, very. It is a very isolating thing. You know, I think a lot of people attribute to it. It's like, oh, you see the big YouTubers, they're all in their party houses and I'm like, come on guys, you know, like that's. No, no, you know, you know what the YouTuber is doing? He's editing at 5am and going to the local grocery store to get like some like Doritos. Yeah, exactly. And then coming back and that's, that's, that's the equivalent, you know, of that. And then going back to the room while you know, their fam and you know, friends are already are asleep or something or like their partner is, you know, have been in bed since 12, you know, like a normal human and then has to wake up.
- [91:52]
A
You're missing as much life as you would on tour without the benefit of the experiences and the memories.
- [91:57]
B
Memories. Well, it's, it's true, I think particularly the mental aspect because it's also so weird of like, physically you are at home, you are there. Right. Which is a gift. It is much easier, of course, than being on a road. Holy shit. Right? That's. That's a night that's. That's intense. I'm surprised there's so many people that tour that are able to mentally deal with.
- [92:17]
A
I understand. I understand what you mean. That the objective level of comfort is greater when you're at home. But I think that. That although it's true, it kind of misses what comfort feels like and what satisfaction and where meaning and satisfaction come from, which is going through something hard and coming out the other side. Okay. With people.
- [92:35]
B
Yes.
- [92:35]
A
Right. That's what it is.
- [92:37]
B
Yeah. There's always people around. Even if it's like, even if your whole band's busy. I don't know, your photographer's there, your
- [92:41]
A
front house guy's there, the LDS there, the TM's there. Like you can go for dinner with somebody. You get to share in the failures and in the successes both at the same time. Time. It's not the same. It's just. It's simply not the same. So again, like, I understand the like throat clearing land acknowledgement you've got to do of saying, I understand I'm in a privileged position and I don't need to leave the house and who am I to complain? And, and that, that is true. But I think it just miss people who have a problem with that and say, well, there's no reason that creators should be getting burned out. They just simply don't understand where. Where meaning and motivation come from. And they don't come from comfort. It's not what you want, it's what you need. And sometimes what you need isn't always what you want. For instance, I'm friends with a bunch of people in bands that are at the transitionary period from where they've just been on a bus, sleeper bus, to now being able to afford hotels. Each night they want the hotel room. Each night they need to be on the bus with the band because they finish a show, they go back to a hotel, and now they're on the run. And even though that's what they want, it's not what they need. And I think that mental health will decline in line with how separated the members of a band get.
- [93:55]
B
Yeah.
- [93:56]
A
You know, there's duos that have separate tour buses.
- [93:59]
B
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
- [94:00]
A
You know what I mean? And they're touring together. Homeboy's conga lining their way from like Atlanta to Pittsburgh or whatever.
- [94:06]
B
Right.
- [94:06]
A
Right? And you go, well, why is that happening? You go, well, because we can afford it, and I want that. You go, yeah, but, but are you happier? Or were you happier when you and homeboy were bunking on top of each other? Because I reckon that you actually were more. Anyway, all of that is to say that just because what you want might be to sit in your comfortable seat at home and have your air conditioning and your Uber eats, come here and not need to put pants on depends on the video. That doesn't mean that it's the highest level of motivation and reinforcement that you want. And this is where, I mean, it's never gonna work. It's me and you. No matter how much we try to warn people, it's never, ever gonna work. But what is it? The number one job that young kids want is YouTuber, and the second one is influencer.
- [94:49]
B
Dude, when I. Back in my day, dude, it was still fucking doctor and astronaut. So I don't know what the hell's happening. Like, if everybody, you know, if someone gets, like, I don't know, a big cut now, if they're just fucked because it's just a YouTuber coming to save them. Like, I don't know what's gonna happen with that.
- [95:02]
A
I really wanted to be a creator, but I couldn't cut it on YouTube. So I'm here. I think we put, we pull some, we'll pull some beer on. It'll be fine.
- [95:09]
B
Yeah, beer. Polysporin fixes everything. Don't worry about it. You know what I mean? Like, it. But it's, that's where it's tricky because I grew up in that era. YouTuber YouTube was in a job still in the early 2010s, right? There was like some of the bigger YouTubers, like the PewDiePie and the Markiplier. I think Markiplier was around mid, mid tens and those guys doing stuff. And that's, that's, that's great. But you could tell again, it's a different vibe too. Like, they're just being dumb asses and having fun. Like, they're having fun. They're already isolated.
- [95:38]
A
Even Pewdie's fucking done his retreat from the Internet, though.
- [95:41]
B
Yeah, dude, I love his new vibe. He's just like, I, I, I got my fam, I'm living my life and I'm doing Linus shit. Like, I'm vibing, dude. Like, he's just doing his own thing. And I'm like, good for you, bro.
- [95:51]
A
I, I wrote this essay a couple of weeks ago. The fuck you Family. So there's three different stages that people can say Fuck you at Fuck you Money.
- [95:59]
B
Okay.
- [96:00]
A
Don't need to. You ever worry about what something costs? You're not even that beholden to the limitations of going to work. You don't need to have a boss. Wonderful fucky freedom, which is maybe you're on a ranch somewhere out here in Texas. You kind of don't even need to adhere to the laws if you keep yourself quiet enough. It's usually facilitated by fuck you money. But it's a little bit different too. And sometimes you can get it in a different sort of a way. You could imagine the van life. People have got fucking freedom without Fuck you money. But there's a third level, which is Fuck youk Family. And Fuck youk Family is realizing that all of the games that you played to try and get acclaim and respect and recognition from the people in your industry, admiration from the people you admire, all that stuff kind of doesn't matter anymore because the only people that I need to care about are in the bed next to me or in the room across the hall, and they think that I'm the coolest, richest, smartest, most heroic person on the planet. So as long as my wife and my babies love me and think that I'm awesome, fuck you.
- [97:05]
B
Yeah.
- [97:06]
A
And that, I think, explains this. You could call it just the dad pivot that a lot of guys go through. And it's sick to see Pewdie do it too. You know, someone who really was sending the living shit out of it, like, at the top of his game, to just be like, I'm good, man. I'm out.
- [97:22]
B
I'm out.
- [97:22]
A
I can't wait for that. I'm so ready to do this from a place of peace. I'm out.
- [97:29]
B
Yeah, it's. It's so tricky. It's. Dude. When. When people make it like that and kind of go somewhat unscathed because no matter what, like, you can't escape with a little beauty.
- [97:39]
A
Skates.
- [97:40]
B
The entire industry, considering. Considering the situation that happened correct now
- [97:46]
A
came out essentially with not a scratch on him.
- [97:49]
B
That. Yes. So, like, that's. That's why, like, I. And I think other people. One of my fucking Filthy. Frank being one of those OG YouTubers too, where it's like that dude quitting at the perfect time is be. It's. He knew.
- [98:00]
A
He knew what was Bitcoin at the top of the market.
- [98:03]
B
Yeah. Yeah, dude. It's. It's better than that. And then then being able to also do exactly what he wants with Joji is like, whoa. That's like a different kind of you. That's like, yeah, yeah. Like, that's like a transcendental escape velocity. Yeah, man. I'm like, how. Yeah, we're like, especially when. Especially nowadays. Like, it's crazy when you have a catalog like that. You're just uncancelable. I love that. That's why, like, because you're out. What's someone gonna do? What's someone gonna do?
- [98:30]
A
Sorry, take me down. I'm not making anything.
- [98:32]
B
Yeah, I'm Joji. I love that.
- [98:34]
A
You know, I would love to see the. The like, residuals that somebody like PewDiePie is getting if he just doesn't upload anything else. You know what I mean? Because you just got.
- [98:45]
B
How many limited ads you got on those videos is that, dude, that's a tricky thing. And when it comes to YouTube and also part of reason, I had a lot of trouble because I drive so much of my worth and value of YouTube. Not necessarily always because of the numbers. Like, you know, if a video didn't do so well, I wouldn't be like, oh, I'm going to go, like, end everything now. It was just tricky. It's like your baby, the thing you really care about, and it feels like it's not growing. When I was younger, that would hit me a lot. And then over time start to diversify, right? As the thing with YouTube or just one particular platform. And I would always advise this to, like, other content people and as well as even musicians of just like, please, God, do not just trust this one thing. Because, like, YouTube can sit there and just be like, here's a new policy. Yeah, you know, the edgy content you did, like, with all those guys, it's all limited ads now. You. You make 10% of what you made before because advertisers are, you know, the better advertiser not showing on. And now it's only like the. Whatever Gamba crazy shit that that's on there. Sorry, It's. It's, you know, sorry, you know, and you just have to stare at it. Be like, okay, So I have 5% of my income now. Like, that's how it goes, right? And that's a tricky thing. Unless you diversify of being like, okay, well, oh, okay, like, YouTube fucked me. But whatever, I'm streaming on Twitch. Oh, I got Patreon supporters, too. Oh, I'm. I also. I have signature this, I have signature that. I have affiliate links. You know, I mean, like, it's just if you diversify yourself, you're also much less of a, like, susceptible to like, just, just a platform which does not. Any of these platforms don't deserve, I think, any particular loyalty to, you know, the, the content creators.
- [100:17]
A
There's no loyalty from them to you.
- [100:18]
B
Yeah, exactly. So it's. It's like, why the, you know, if one day, like I said, a Spotify or an Apple music just wants to be like, yeah, man, I don't know, dude. Like, Suno's kind of lit, so fuck it. Like, all our money's there. Like, real musicians are only getting like 10 now. Like, that's hilarious and extreme, but you
- [100:34]
A
know what I mean? What do you think's happening with the state of Spotify streaming stuff at the moment? Because there was a long time, and still is, of artists being quite disgruntled with a variety of different streaming services. Tidal seemed to be pretty good in the eyes of at least artists. But who the fuck uses Tidal?
- [100:54]
B
I don't know the single person in my life who used to.
- [100:57]
A
You know what I mean? So what's the sort of overview of how artists and streaming platforms are relating at the moment, moment?
- [101:06]
B
Every. I mean, everyone always is pissed. And, you know, I've been like, that's just.
- [101:13]
A
That's just a summary of the world.
- [101:15]
B
That's a summary. Yeah. Particularly with the music. Like, that is one of probably the biggest complaints in the music industry of like, streaming doesn't pay enough. And it's, it's tricky because, yeah, Spotify pay more. What the fuck? But at the same time, a lot of bands also are on contracts and, And a lot of the. On those contracts, they're not realizing maybe, hey, they didn't. They signed off, like, all of their royalties or all of their, you know, streaming revenue or, you know, hey, you still have like, your $5 million, like, loan you gotta pay back before you actually get any streaming revenue. So, like, I think a lot of those stories get pushed extremely hard with those bands. And they're like, you know, there'll be a band that's like, I have like 50 million streams and I made like 20 bucks on my song. And it's like, okay, well, yeah, Spotify should pay more, but there's other stuff involved.
- [102:05]
A
Who paid for that record?
- [102:06]
B
Yeah, yeah, like, there's paid for the
- [102:07]
A
promo, paid for the video. Who paid for your shoot? Who paid for. Who fronted the merch? Who fronted the tour?
- [102:13]
B
I think bands are now becoming more aware of deals because, you know, back in the day, it's like, oh, I signed to a record label. Oh, my God, we made it. We did it. We signed whatever piece of paper. Oh my God, $200,000. We're all rich. Let's go drink, you know, I mean, let's go buy a car. Instead of realizing, like, oh, we all alone, like, we have to pay this back, guys. You know, like in the capacity, like,
- [102:33]
A
do you remember that documentary that was done about 30 seconds to Mars when they had to make their album?
- [102:39]
B
Bro, I have to.
- [102:41]
A
So this, I only ever saw it once. It might actually be a fucking fever dream. It might not exist. So. But let me see if I can find it. 30 seconds to Mars documentary. Sony. So it was when they were in. Artifact is a 2012 award winning documentary by Jared Leto that follows 30 Seconds to Mars during the 2008 legal battle against EMI. The film documents the band's $30 million lawsuit while they recorded. The album. This is War provides an intimate look into the music business and the fight for creative freedom. So this is available. It's available on Netflix, apparently. Everyone should go and watch this. I remember seeing this pretty much just after it came out and it fucking ruled. And it is. Jared Leto is using like War Dogs money or whatever the fuck that movie was in that he was. That was in with Joker, Nick Cage or Suicide Squad. No, it was where he was. He was the like second in command to a dude. Anyway, like, he's using money from acting to fund recording the record. Because the deal that they've got is it's fuck,360. It's like 720. They've got like a 720 deal and they just eat everything for the rest of time. The rest of time, the rest of time. It is gnarly, this. I can't believe that it kind of. Maybe because of when it came out like 2012, who would have done a reaction to it? I reckon your audience would eat this shit up, especially if you did a breakdown. I think it's fucking fantastic. So, yeah, basically eight stars on IMDb out of 5,000 reviews. Jesus. So yeah, it ripped. But yeah, these big 360 deals, I mean, I saw the top line of one of these deals the other day. And the first thing of a 12 page record deal contract is something along the lines of, this is a longstanding and completely binding legal document. It is crucial that you fully understand this because it involves the rest of your life. It is highly advisable to get legal advice like, yeah, up top, it is. But I guess if you're in a band that's been grinding for so long and somewhat it's like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The small print. Where's the, where's the. How much? Oh, 750 grand.
- [104:58]
B
Yeah. I mean I think nowadays a lot of those deals have become better because artists have become more aware and also labels have become more. I think think the right word might be accommodating. I'm not sure of like oh, okay. Like we need to be a bit more creative. Instead of it just be like these
- [105:13]
A
classic like I need to fuck you in an inventive way.
- [105:16]
B
In an inventive way. Like yeah, where it's. And also I remember, I mean I would see, I would talk with bands, right? And understand a bit and talk with labels too. I'd be like, I. I learned a lot of that knowledge more working within the scene from my perspective, which was different. Again, I'm not, I'm not. I wasn't in a sign band. I wasn't with that. I was working with a lot of labels labels. I was working with a lot of signed bands and a lot of friends with a lot of signed bands and a lot of friends, you know, with the ANRs and labels and stuff and working as a again, content creator, YouTuber Space. Right? But my space is usually not as coincided with that world. It's like you are content DIY random. Figure it the out guy. You make, you do Photoshop and you go make memes, right? Deadlock and here you go. These people make the real music, right? And actually deal their real business. Like that's. That was kind of the relationship. Many, you know, I wish less years ago, but you know, like quite a few years ago. And that's something where I've seen over the years. I remember talking to someone and being like, oh, so what like the industry standard for like how many, how many records you owe. And it's like, you know, it would be. Someone would say like yeah, we owe like we, we owe. We still owe our label like five records. And I'm like. I would sit there and I'd be like what do you mean? Because I it's as a, again as a concept first, especially as a person.
- [106:26]
A
Singles or album. No albums. Albums. I owe them like like 60 tracks.
- [106:32]
B
Yeah. And. And I just. Okay, so math. If we do the two year cycle of most majority of bands of release schedule, you signed away 10 years of your life. I don't know when you plan on dying, brother, but that's more than 10% of your life. And I especially with a lot of these musicians, they seem to want to be. Be musicians because they love music and come to the space to not be conventional and not want a normal job and not have someone tell them what they can and can't do. True. And I would see a lot of musicians and it would be very sad of like that seems more of a lock in corporate than just going to work at, you know, the. The bookkeeping.
- [107:09]
A
True. Because it's taking what was your passion and turning it into an engine.
- [107:13]
B
Yeah. Which to the credit of some labels that are able to do it very well and successfully. Obviously there's sometimes big bands that otherwise maybe especially in the 2000s, like they didn't have a label. Maybe be. There's a lot of musicians that do not have the best business side of things. You know, they just want to play music. You know, they grow up. They fucking love Nirvana, they love Metallica and they just want. I want to make that. I want to do that. I want to do it now. I don't give a fuck about business. I don't. I don't care. They don't. I don't want to look at my bank account. Right. Like none of this. And kudos to them. Right. They want that. But then they do need that business person. They do need that label to. Or manager at the very least. Right. To figure shit out for them. And yeah, they're going to get taken advantage of because that's how the industry works. Right.
- [107:52]
A
Right.
- [107:53]
B
If, you know, you're kind of just going with the flow. I don't know where. Unless you find someone that's just. I don't know. The very rare person that has, you know, is a bit more empathetic and is like, hey, dude, you know what? Like, I know I can fuck you for this, but I'm only gonna fuck you for this because you're cool and I want to see you succeed. You know what I mean? And that's a tricky line to. To go ahead with where like five years, it's like, bro, like what? Or even. I mean, three years left and I'm like. Or not three or three albums and I'm like, that's six years of your life at least. Like, that's. Dude, you are a different person in six years. Like you, you. You even going to like this type of music in six years. Like that's such a long commitment. It's like a marriage to the business entity which would be a label. And then you're also married. You're in a band. So you're married to all your band members. You're trying to make how many Marriages. You trying to work out there, bro? Yeah, like, you know, a lot of people have tricky with one and you want to make, you know, your five band members, you're married to them, you see them, them more than your family. You eat together, you know all your habits, you know how to piss each other off. You know what I mean? You guys earn income together, you lose income together, and you have the corporate entity over you and management and whatever else that's attached to that. Which again, some musicians fucking need this because they need guidance in a capacity. But for some of those deals, especially like 2000s or way back when, it's like, holy shit, bro. How do you like, that's. That's too much commitment, man. How are you doing that?
- [109:23]
A
Given that nobody doesn't listen to music? Yeah, no one. Everybody has some music. Some people are more into music than others. Some people are more into some music than others, but everybody listens to some sort of music.
- [109:33]
B
Yeah.
- [109:34]
A
I can't believe how retarded the music industry is.
- [109:38]
B
It's.
- [109:38]
A
It is fucking wild, dude. When I found out about how distribution works, like Distrokid and if you want to put. If I want to put a podcast on the Internet, I've got even a decade ago, when I started researching, doing the podcast, pod's like eight and a half years old. And I used old school RSS on Libsyn 4. And the only reason that I used that is because it was what Rogan used back, back, back in the day. It's like an old school RSS feed converter that you manually plug into all of these different things. And then after a while it gets a little bit more. I remember I was uploading it to like jb. What's that? What's that? Ghanaian streaming service. Is it called like or something? There's like. There was like, we were putting it on Deezer, we were putting it on SoundCloud, we were putting it on all of these different things. There's the only one that you can get in all of Africa at the time. And I'm like manually going in and adding the RSS feed to all of this stuff.
- [110:30]
B
Every episode.
- [110:31]
A
No, once. But then sometimes it would like time out or shit would change on the back end and I'd need to go in and check link health. And I did that firm five or six years and then we moved to Megaphone. Megaphone got bought by Spotify and now everything. It's plug and play. It's the. It's like fucking squarespace, right? For making a website. So I don't need to learn to code anymore. I just drag and drop and everything happens. Yeah, not the same apparently. If I want to put a song on both Apple Music and Tidal and Spotify at the same time, you can
- [111:03]
B
use like the, you can use like a distrokid now or oh, my CD baby. I forget the name.
- [111:07]
A
But you still have to jump through a fucking shit like way more hoops, right. In order to coordinate that kind of
- [111:12]
B
a release more than the podcast. So I, I, and so funny, when I, before I left, I, I would chat with people and I'd have to still use like Pod Farm or something. So I had to use the rss, but it was still a bit more like conjoined. So it was, it wasn't what you were talking about. It was like the next gen of much easier. And now it's literally just like, oh, I uploaded on like creative Spotify. Like, oh, I guess it's there. Like it's done. That's cool. That's the distrokid stuff. It. And like the music side, it's still, it's not that bad, but it's still, it's. It could be more ideal, you know, like, it's basically okay, title, artwork, date, record label. And if you don't have one, you have to just put, you know, that's why you see some fun like, you know, bands that are independent, they say like, whatever, you know, whatever the record is at, like, I hate you, brother. Like whatever. They make up some random ages to put something in there. And then you have to make sure you have the right audio. You have to make sure, you know, you, you check if it's like explicit and all this. Like, it's basically a checklist of oh my God, I've done it enough times at this point probably of like five to ten things. Every song, unless it's an album. So every, every release is maybe a better wording for that that you have to do. And then after it's the setup, you got to add the lyrics, you gotta add this and that. It's starting to become a bit more automated. So it is a bit easier. But also considering how before you just needed a record label as far as I knew, maybe there was also specific just distribution companies. I'm sure there was. Right. That just did that. And you didn't need to be like signed to the label. But then again, mistake me, I'm wrong. You probably still have to be signed to the distribution company in a capacity. So that's why when this stuff came Out. I think a lot of independent musicians became very happy because again we. We don't ask. Don't ask for much.
- [112:50]
A
So bypass the.
- [112:51]
B
Yeah, that. Because that made. I saw a lot of bands and you can always tell when they're in a fan, like I said, because the default is like some like at this DK number number, number as your record label. So when you see that as an upload, you you're like, oh, these are kids that just like just uploaded, just figured it out. You know what I mean? And that's something really funny. And then you see them get like signed later. So now it's like, oh. So a lot of these independent artists have more of a say of at least how they can do it. Even SoundCloud, that was a pretty big one. And even the. Not the metal scene as much I know there was like literally a genre soundcloud rap. So I know in the rap scene it was. It was like big in the metal scene it wasn't as popular. But some musicians used it, particularly Kanye content musicians used that back in the day. So it's better than before. That's why. But in comparison to how easy I see it is to use like the Spotify podcast thing now I'm like, you guys gotta up your fucking technology music scene. Cause like it's taking a bit.
- [113:45]
A
Have you seen song DNA on Spotify yet?
- [113:48]
B
No, it's on DNA.
- [113:49]
A
So I've only just seen this for the first time. Okay. So I decided to do it on can you feel my heart?
- [113:53]
B
Okay. Yeah.
- [113:54]
A
So if you go into the traffic track and then at the like below the lyrics and about the song and all the rest of it is song DNA.
- [114:01]
B
Okay.
- [114:01]
A
So if I click explore, this is all of the different people. So this is like Ted Jensen, the mastering engineer. Dan Graziano the editor. Annie Skates, a contractor. And then like Matt Nichols drums and then how many collaborators and how many songs he's on. Like Matt Nicholas. So like if I open up like Jordan Fish ish composer, three roles. So like and now I can go into. Worked with 275 artists, recorded 473 songs. Top songs with like. And now I can go in there and this is all of his stuff. So this is kind of like a matrix or a web where you can explore how all of the different people are associated with different stuff.
- [114:45]
B
Because before, yeah, before it was just you would right click and say song credits and they were, they were. They updated it. Now before it was so pathetic, it was just performance performer, writer and producer. And most of the time it would be glitched and not always super accurate anyways. But, like, if you were a co producer, for example, it wouldn't even show. So it was just the main producer. It was just the performers and whoever else has primary. If you want to, you know, get some extra Spotify plays with you, go for it. Right. And then the songwriters. But it wouldn't say mixer, it wouldn't say engineer, it wouldn't say fuck all. Even though when you distribute, you have the option to put all tag everything. So every. All that metadata is. Is usually in there if you take the time to input it. Right.
- [115:24]
A
If you go to. What's the website that lists, like, every single person that's involved in a record, there's like, the legal requirement for it.
- [115:30]
B
Oh, like the, like, public. Like actual publishing. Like bmi.
- [115:34]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that seems to be a little bit more.
- [115:37]
B
That's granular. They don't screw around. Well, that's how a lot of artists who are anonymous get leaked.
- [115:42]
A
Yes.
- [115:42]
B
Because, you know, it comes to publishing and, like, they're like, you know, cute.
- [115:46]
A
Cute that you're supposed to not know who you are. Put your fucking legal name on this website, dude. Thank you.
- [115:51]
B
That happens really quickly. And it's like. But I, you know, like, hey, we, you know, we're anonymous. And it's like, okay, so I don't give a fuck about your stage name. I need your legal name or you're not getting published. So, like, it's kind of that, you know, that's why, like.
- [116:05]
A
Yeah, yeah. Nice one, Dark Danny. We'll have your full fucking Daniel Robertson. We'll have that down.
- [116:12]
B
Yeah. It's way more lame if it's. If. If they had to go Dark Danny, it's going to. Yeah, yeah.
- [116:16]
A
What is the worst thing do you think about. Oh, actually, what's your prediction for the sort of next five years or so of alternative music? What are you worried about and what are you positive about?
- [116:29]
B
Ooh, that's a big question, man. It's okay. What I'm positive about is I think the scene is becoming more and more genreless, which I get excited about, because then the focus is not, hey, can we make a deathcore or a metalcore or a pop, you know, popcorn, whatever the fuck banger is. Can we just make a good song? You know, like. And, you know, I love that because then there's going to be a higher quantity of good music. I think that's always kind of my. My end goal with it. It's Just like I. Whatever route leads to, like, can we just get more actual good shit that doesn't suck? Like, that's all I really care. So I feel like the scene is going that way in a. In a healthy way. The bad side of that is I think also because metal is the good and the bad. Metal's becoming more popular than ever. But now it's also almost like cool to like it. So it's being more gamified. It's becoming more of like a specific structure of how to write like an Octane Core song, right? And that's no shonen Octane because octane being metal radio or rock radio actually it has breakdowns now. That's sick. You know, it has heavy parts, it has screaming, right? Like that's something where I'm like, that's. That's cool now that people would go there before and just listen to like hell yeah brother, you know what I mean? And have a good time with like respect to Nickelback, but with Nickelback or with like Creed or with like classic rock now you're hearing like the Bad Omens, the sort of Sleep Tokens, the. The Spirit Box and stuff like that on there, right? And that's really good to see. But also it becoming much bigger. Meaning that there's more industry and labels and monetization in this space that maybe didn't exist as much.
- [118:12]
A
So there's more of an incentive for
- [118:14]
B
people to do, to do, to do and to be like, oh well this style is big. So just make, create, you know, create seven bands. That's just that style. You know what I mean? Like Octane Core is legitimately a.
- [118:24]
A
What is Octane Core? Who would be in that?
- [118:27]
B
Like. And again, this isn't a derogatory like of like all your. It's.
- [118:31]
A
It's the people who are derivative of this might be.
- [118:33]
B
It might be derogatory. Yes, exactly. But like, like Bad Wolves is a big one. Five finger death punch for sure that they. That. That is the best description, that one. But it also leeways again. You'll see Bad Omens in there. You'll see a Spirit box. You'll see like Bill Murray even to a point, right? And he's kind of more extreme and fun. Right. But it's basically music that is. It's radio friendly active rock or slash alternative metal. And the boundaries is what makes it interesting now is that now you can have double kick now you can have scream streaming. Now you can tune down your guitars and get away with more and get. You can get away with More. Exactly. So that's what is cool about what Octane Core is. But because of that, it is a very formulaic. And a lot of bands see that and see the success and be like, wait, my band can make breakdowns and get on radio? What, though?
- [119:24]
A
That's the route to fame?
- [119:25]
B
That. That's the route to money. Yeah. You know, and. And definitely fame to a capacity where it's like, oh, sick. So that's something where. Where it comes with the good and bad. Again, heavy music's getting more popular. Great. And that's getting injected in a way where bands are becoming more creative with it, but then also bands are becoming more sterile with it. And being like, this is. Oh, well, let's just do this.
- [119:43]
A
It's Amy. Copycat.
- [119:45]
B
Samey Copycat. Just work. Write the same course every time. Use the exact same melody, use the same lyrics with slight differentials so we don't get sued, you know, by the other band. And, like, let's all try to be Linkin park again, you know, because, like, Lincoln. Lincoln. That's. It's so crazy to me that it took so long for everyone to copy paste Linkin park again, considering how massive they were in 2000s. But, like, yeah, that's. That's the epitome of, like, the most successful sound, I think, in the modern metal sphere. If you can pull off a good hybrid theory, you're. You're eating. You're gonna eat well. Yeah. You know, so, yeah, again, it's always tricky because I'm excited for bands to get heavier and that be more things that young kids get into. But I'm also like.
- [120:24]
A
Like, this is gonna dilute down the sound.
- [120:26]
B
It's gonna. Yeah, it's gonna make it a little diluted, which is. It is what it is. But also I hear a lot of bands within that making very weird because there's no genres. Like, I. There's these. I don't know if you listen to much of these smaller bands like. Like Marar or like Disembodied Tyrant.
- [120:39]
A
Nope.
- [120:40]
B
There's this. There's these new subsets of bands that are so extreme that they basically can't be extreme anymore in just that sub genre of the metal sphere they're in. So, like, Death Core. Okay. You're already as extreme. You can be like, Lorna did it, you know, like, okay, and like Whitechapel exists. Suicide Silence. And like, there's all these new bands. Right. So a band like, this is why Tyrant is like, well, we're doing that, but now we're also going to have like dubstep moments. So we're going to take we're going
- [121:04]
A
to the heaviest thing of a different heavy genre and put it into our heavy genre.
- [121:08]
B
Exactly. So like I'm like that's sick. Or Mirar, which is this smaller thaw band. Like bands like of all jar to manage last breath. I don't know if you know Buster. He also has throne. Throne. You might.
- [121:18]
A
Yeah, I know throw.
- [121:18]
B
Okay. He's the drummer and songwriter also with with that band and his like more progressive fans are human. And Thal is this John which is like super Gent.
- [121:28]
A
It's okay.
- [121:29]
B
Hey, I, I man, I'm gonna be such a gent. I'm gonna be such a weirdo trying to explain this of like that's what we're here for. I do. I will explain it all on your podcast channel. I got you. So gent was down to dad to dad meshuggah. Okay, cool. Then after time kids got bored of and became. D. Periphery. No, because periphery, okay, it's. It's more of a rhythmic group thing where that genre Thal kind of took all those elements, added more of an atmospheric element, dialed down the polyrhythmic confusing rhythms and made it more of less mathy. Less mathy, Exactly. More of like groove. Funny enough. More extreme yet more accessible, which is ironic, I would say. So there's bands that do that. I've been doing that for a while. And then there's a band like the small band Marauder, which they took that and they're like, oh, dubstep sick. Oh, I love like Beethoven. And so they infuse, you know what I mean? So they infuse that with these sounds and it's like a whole nother world of like music. And not just as a music fan, but as a musician and a guitarist. I sit there like dumbfounded of like, it's cool. This is so sick. So that aspect excites me because music is so heavy now. Bands are literally trying to find, you know, more excitement and heaviness and weird place places which will make more unique music as at the same time it's becoming more sterile and streamlined for the.
- [122:48]
A
Yeah, that's a, that's a great point, dude. A fucking fantastic answer. I think it's, it's kind of surprising because everybody can reach the market freely. There are no if you don't, you don't even need a record label. You can just put same as me with the podcast. I've never been a part of the network TikTok yeah, exactly. Just put it. Put it up. And that would suggest that things would get more weird and more niche. But as people sort of take their eyes off the ball of mainstream, what that means is the people who can get there have even more prestige. Because I always say this about mainstream tv. People think that it's like lamestream. It's old school. No one gives a fuck about CBS or 60 Minutes or whatever. And you go, hey, there is an unlimited amount of YouTube that gets uploaded every single day. There are only 24 hours a day on MSNBC or CNBC or Fox or whatever, whatever. If you take up 15 of those minutes, that's 15 minutes not going to something or someone else. That means that you have value in a way that Simply uploading a YouTube video doesn't. It's cool and subversive and rebellious, man. And I'm. There's no person telling me what to say. And that's sick about the YouTube thing. But it's low prestige for precisely the same reason. Anyone can do it. So anyone can do it. And I think that this is sort of the bifurcation of what you're seeing here. It's like, who is going to be placed on the new Madden Game? Like, who's going to. Yeah, for sure.
- [124:10]
B
Of course.
- [124:12]
A
Who is going to get to play the Grammys, who is going to get to play the baftas, who's going to get to play at these different awards ceremonies and who's going to get put on radio? And if you manage to do that, because so many people are looking toward the independent side, that is going to create an incentive. So I think you're right that you're going to end up with sort of two scenes splintering off in additional directions.
- [124:34]
B
Yeah. And I hope the metal scene embraces it too, when it comes to those smaller bands, because there's so much smaller music now and smaller underground bands. And what happens with the metal scene? And it happens with bands like Sleep Token, with bands like Spirit Box, even with Bad Omens. Anytime these bands, when they're kind of small and underground, they have that moment. Like Sleep Token had the summoning. Right, Right. All of a sudden, yo, this band's like, oh, you know, who's. They're not that good.
- [124:58]
A
They sold out. It was cool to hate. The fact that it's cool to hate Sleep Token blows my mind, dude. Give me a break.
- [125:05]
B
Well, it's. It's funny, particularly because their discography is not even. Is not metal, really. Right. It is. They are a. They're More of a pop leaning band with metal elements, which is great. So I think because Metalhead's almost like, we're like, you're ours. You know what I mean? Like, you're. This is ours. Like, this is sick. You know, we. This. We can listen to pop with it too. That when they do the pop stuff, particularly like with their new record, right, they're even Arcadia. Definitely more pop leaning. That was great. Had like top 50 bangers, but then also had some of the most. I'm gonna use the word extreme instead of heavy extreme moments, right? And because of that correlation between those two things and like the scene being like, well, well, no, you're. You're ours. We made you big. You know, you did that thing and then we all were in on it.
- [125:50]
A
Serve us what we want.
- [125:51]
B
Yeah. So, like, no, you're not allowed to now, like, be just like a band. You're our metal band. Or you're not. You know what I mean? Or we hate you and you're just some shitty pop band.
- [126:01]
A
I also think a lot of criticism came from the mainstream of saying this is shitty mainstream music. I can't remember who the guy was. Maybe in the Times it was a British reporter who did a review of the album. It was album of the year. But he said it was like the worst thing he's ever heard. Like, I. It just. It made me. It made me sad especially. We can cut this if this isn't known. Do people know that Sleep Token are from the uk? Do they know that they're British? I don't know.
- [126:26]
B
They have to.
- [126:27]
A
Landmine.
- [126:28]
B
Yeah, they're definitely British.
- [126:29]
A
Fine. Yeah, you said it.
- [126:31]
B
I said it. Sleep Token. They're. They're British, bro. They like. Oi, fuck. I'm Canadian, bro.
- [126:35]
A
That's fine. Yeah, I'll give you license to be able to say that word. That's our word. You can culturally appropriate for the time.
- [126:41]
B
Okay, I got you.
- [126:42]
A
Uh, like, hey, we're not exactly fucking showering ourselves in glory as a country at the moment. You know what I mean? But we should take every Grammy nomination that we can get.
- [126:51]
B
Take the Dove, dude.
- [126:52]
A
We should take every single Grammy nominate. We should take all of that because it would be good.
- [126:58]
B
Well, you guys have tons of sick metal bands which is punching above our weight.
- [127:01]
A
You.
- [127:02]
B
You have this one. Some. I mean, okay, loathe Sleep Token. I mean, if you're classics. I mean, like a Bullet obviously is massive. Architects do me bring president. Yeah, exactly.
- [127:16]
A
So we're ripping.
- [127:17]
B
We're. You guys are ripping. And that's where it's like, that's sick. You know, Canada now. I'm always proud of Canada, cuz. Alexis on Fire.
- [127:23]
A
Are they Canadian? Is Dallas green Canadian?
- [127:26]
B
Yeah, yeah, I think they. They from Hamilton. I might just get so roasted by all. I'm pretty sure they're from Hamilton, idiot.
- [127:33]
A
Dude, Bitsburg.
- [127:34]
B
Yeah. Dude, you're so. I know they're, they're, they're. Well, I know that too because you know why when I. When living Canada my whole life, Canadians, you'll go like. It's just a very particular scene in Toronto with, with. With metalheads and it's always fun. And when you go to shows, for some reason the metalheads in Toronto, Lean Prague and. And. And like. And post hardcore.
- [127:57]
A
Okay.
- [127:57]
B
Out of all the things so who
- [127:58]
A
do they listen to?
- [127:59]
B
So Protest the Hero.
- [128:00]
A
Okay. Hell, that is an insane refresh ball.
- [128:03]
B
It is.
- [128:03]
A
Jesus Christ. That I've listened to Protest the Hero in like a decade and a half.
- [128:08]
B
Any musician I ever met that literally said I. I like heavy music or anything. I was like, what's your favorite protest here? No matter what. Without a doubt.
- [128:16]
A
That's very proggy.
- [128:17]
B
Yeah, it's that. And then it was Alexis on Fire.
- [128:19]
A
Okay, fine, good.
- [128:20]
B
And then it was like like Intervals and like kind of like the Jazz Gent dudes from like the 2010s, you know, like that whole like, like sit through a pliny intervals Polyphia came from that scene. But they're not that really sound anymore. So like that sound and then like Billy Talent, which is not metal at all.
- [128:37]
A
Fucking love Billy Talent.
- [128:38]
B
Billy Talent's sick.
- [128:39]
A
Billy Talent rules. Yes.
- [128:41]
B
All right.
- [128:41]
A
I remember I did a media studies assignment in like when I was 16, 17 in sixth form college. And I did it to a Billy Talent song.
- [128:49]
B
So cool, dude. I used to jab like the river and like. Was it. I think it was Billy Talent too. I forgot the fucking numbers. I did those albums like all together nonstop bangers, man.
- [128:59]
A
Give me. Let's listen to a couple of tracks from bands that you think that people need to know more about. Like just whatever. Cool. I've got a. I've got a couple that I want to show you.
- [129:08]
B
Oh, shit.
- [129:08]
A
So you.
- [129:09]
B
I mean, Alexa, you did Alexis. So like I'm. I'm my. I'm happy with.
- [129:12]
A
That's fucking cool. That's nice to be able to throw. Throw that back.
- [129:15]
B
Yeah.
- [129:15]
A
But yeah, who else. What else should we look at?
- [129:18]
B
I mean, Billy Talent has some bangers and I don't. I don't think in America, they're very well known, which is always weird to me because they're a big band. But anytime you talk to someone from tri, Honesty is always. I think probably Fallen Leaves is probably like their, like, little edgier banger. Yeah.
- [129:36]
A
This sound, dude, so cool.
- [129:42]
B
The guitarist is so sick in this band. Like, you can tell that's like a death. Like a death metal, dude. That was like, you know what? I just want to play, like, punk instead.
- [129:51]
A
That's a hell of a head of photo.
- [129:53]
B
Yeah. Oh, dude. I'm back in middle school in the frozen north. Hey there, buddy. Going to Timmy's for lunch break, dude.
- [130:06]
A
All right, all right.
- [130:08]
B
You gotta hit me. You gotta hit me with one.
- [130:10]
A
All right.
- [130:11]
B
Are you not gonna get, like a thousand copyright claims?
- [130:13]
A
I don't care. I don't care.
- [130:15]
B
Respect, man.
- [130:16]
A
Holy Water. Are you familiar with Holy Water?
- [130:18]
B
No, I don't know Holy Water. Whoa.
- [130:21]
A
So they just released their album Is
- [130:23]
B
this a new band?
- [130:23]
A
On Friday, they supported Architects, bro. Fucking three quarters of a mil now.
- [130:29]
B
Let's go, let's go.
- [130:30]
A
Now. What do I like from this? So this is the new album and the most interesting track. Probably give me a show. I'll show you this because it goes pretty hard, but then we'll listen to a bit of Nightmares.
- [130:40]
B
Okay. Okay. Yeah. I've never heard of this band.
- [130:43]
A
So they supported Architects, were they. They were second support, so. Fucking era were first support.
- [130:49]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [130:50]
A
I saw them in Houston. And these guys are really fucking like that progressive metal.
- [130:55]
B
Cory Space.
- [130:57]
A
It's just. I don't know. They did a. Yeah. So this came out April 17th. This is why I asked you whether or not you'd. How much you. I hope he hasn't listened to the new.
- [131:09]
B
No, I have listened to this. Oh, dude, we. Back in the 2000s. Yeah. That is a kid that grew up. I don't know who the fucking guitarist is. He grew up listening to Under Oath, Chasing Safety. Hundred percent.
- [131:32]
A
It's got a bit of shoegaze in it, which is cool.
- [131:34]
B
I mean, Deftones is sick now
- [131:40]
A
and then.
- [131:44]
B
Yup.
- [131:45]
A
Dude. Fucking fire. So that's my first one for you. And the second one, I'm so glad that you've never heard of them. That's like to be able to. Able to slipstream you with an unknown band. I feel like I've just, like. I feel like I've headshoted someone from across the map, dude.
- [131:58]
B
I have. That's a.
- [132:02]
A
I've just fired a bullet randomly and it's gone.
- [132:04]
B
No scope, bro.
- [132:05]
A
Say six I know.
- [132:07]
B
Say six.
- [132:08]
A
Ah. I thought I got two for two.
- [132:09]
B
Yeah. Do Thal and B core? So okay, the. The guitar types of style that they have, that's particularly the metal aspect. That's Thaw, right? That shit.
- [132:18]
A
Yeah.
- [132:19]
B
They're sick.
- [132:20]
A
What do I like? What do I like for. From this? So I think the Devotion's just so. I mean, what would you call this genre? Because this is very.
- [132:29]
B
Or modern. This is the thing. There's so many stupid genre names that it's all modern metal, basically. But like. Yeah, Thal and B. Because it's Thal with rnb, it's like.
- [132:37]
A
Is how token inspired is all of this stuff or is it before then?
- [132:41]
B
It's the token. Did. Did Many coins broke.
- [132:50]
A
So cool. All right, give me one more for me.
- [132:52]
B
Okay. I have to show you Marardo because this is.
- [132:54]
A
How do I spell it?
- [132:55]
B
M I R A R. I gotta show you these guys. These are okay, right? Yeah. So classical dubstep thought.
- [133:05]
A
Okay. I like this cover on.
- [133:07]
B
They. They. They literally take like old school paintings. And I don't know if they draw it or they just take it from the Internet because there's no longer copyright 50k.
- [133:14]
A
50k monthlies is a good pull.
- [133:16]
B
Yeah. Oh, dude, they're so sick. It's just two dudes. Two dudes. No vocals.
- [133:25]
A
Oh, okay.
- [133:27]
B
Oh, That's a guitar. He's making that noise with a fricking guitar. It's nutty.
- [133:59]
A
All right, that's sick. All right, what else?
- [134:01]
B
Okay, you have to go to the drop.
- [134:03]
A
Where is it?
- [134:04]
B
It's. It's. It's a little 130.
- [134:06]
A
130.
- [134:07]
B
You. 130.
- [134:10]
A
I'll leave it like.
- [134:11]
B
There we go. I. It's one of those. Where it is one of the coolest moments I've heard in music in the past, like 10 years down. Like, it's simple, but you'll hear the electronic element to it. But it's so extreme. It's just two nerdy kids.
- [134:28]
A
What a nationality are they?
- [134:31]
B
I think Leo is French and Marius is. Oh, God. Swedish or Finn. Norway. One of them. One of the Scandinavian, I think. I think Swedish. Right here. This will get you the extra pump at the gym. I don't give a how heavy it is. A guitar. Psycho. Yeah. That's crazy.
- [135:07]
A
That's insane.
- [135:08]
B
Yeah.
- [135:09]
A
All right, what else? One more.
- [135:10]
B
Oh, okay. Do you know boundaries?
- [135:13]
A
No.
- [135:13]
B
Okay, I gotta show you boundaries. So it's. They're a mix of kind of like that 2000 nostalgic stuff with a Very modern, heavy edge.
- [135:21]
A
I.
- [135:22]
B
You want something more melodic or heavy?
- [135:25]
A
Let's go melodic.
- [135:26]
B
Easily erased. Second one.
- [135:29]
A
Very melodic. Yes.
- [135:31]
B
It has a chorus at least. Goes for it, dude.
- [135:57]
A
Two singers.
- [135:58]
B
Yeah, the drummer is clean singing and then the vocalist is screaming. Yeah, so you got the ambience. You get like the melodic kind of hardcore metalcore vibes. And then you get screaming. You got it's. It's very that. And then breakdowns, all that shit. Dude.
- [136:18]
A
Dude. Very good, Very good. The scene continues to live on as fucking old as we get.
- [136:23]
B
Hell yeah, dude.
- [136:24]
A
Bro, I think you fucking rule. I love your stuff. I'm so glad that you're back. I'm glad you took a break.
- [136:28]
B
Thank you.
- [136:29]
A
But I'm also glad that you're back. So where should people go to check out all the shit that you've got going on?
- [136:34]
B
You'll probably be forced to see my face if you listen to Breakdown somewhere, unfortunately on the Internet, my dumb ass face will pop up going, ooh, but yeah, icknockturnal on everything. And the. I'm gonna. I don't know when you guys drop these, but like in. In a week or two. We're just getting the studio ready and we're gonna be doing this crazy concept of time. Actually what I was saying earlier when I was doing the how to metal thing.
- [136:54]
A
That's right.
- [136:55]
B
We're gonna be writing songs every day on stream from start to finish with crazy rave lights controlled with the actual songs. And basically that is gonna be just content, right? Entire banger, every single day, live. No bullshit. No, that's why there's no anything in the background. It's just right. The banger right there from start to finish. And you're gonna release them if people want them enough. So it's gonna be based fully on demand. So I'll probably put them on like. I don't know if someone wants. They'll go get on the. Like, I'll put the demos, whatever. On a Patreon someone, hey, go there. You go listen to them if you really like them. But like, if it's a song, you know, again that people are like, yo, full right now. Like, go right now. Full campaign. I'll do the music video in the room or like in. You know, in the swamp in Florida. We'll figure it out.
- [137:35]
A
Dude, it's the best idea, I really think, because I would love to see what. What goes into making a track from start to finish. And the fact that you can do. You're doing it with your Mrs.
- [137:43]
B
Some of them I will. I told them because my wife, she used to do the consecration stuff a lot more, but she used to do it in Brazil because she speaks Melee. Portuguese. She speaks English very well, though. But, like, you know, she. She just wants to make music. She. She's. She's not a talker in terms of.
- [137:54]
A
Bring her in. Bring her. Hey, she can be the workhorse.
- [137:57]
B
Yeah.
- [137:57]
A
Come up with some nice riffs. Do some. Do some of that stuff for me. I'll. I'll explain what's going on.
- [138:01]
B
Well, she's gonna be producing and doing her own stuff, so I told her. I was like, yo, so you're gonna make beats in this and do shorts or whatever you want to do, right? Because she want. She writes. We both write. And I'm like, great write thing. And then when something goes crazy and you want to do it together, let's go. We'll do it together on stream and.
- [138:15]
A
Yeah, it'll be crazy, dude, I'm really happy for you. I'm really happy for you. When you left the world of metal and the scene, you basically got eulogies from some of the biggest guys in all of metal, which was pretty hilarious. It was like you died, kind of.
- [138:28]
B
Yeah. They never talked to me while I was there, but. Yeah, exactly. That's how it goes, man.
- [138:31]
A
Well, you're back. You're back, and I'm glad that you're back. And you're fucking awesome, dude. So let's do this again.
- [138:36]
B
Of course, you. Thank you for having me. I love what you do. You do.
- [138:38]
A
All right, goodbye, everybody.
- [138:40]
B
Goodbye.