007 One episode away from throwing Xbox out the window

Summary

---

Moms Raising Mayhem – Episode 007: "One episode away from throwing Xbox out the window"

Date: April 13, 2024
Hosts: Justine Ferro & Cait (Kate) Martin

---

Episode Overview

Justine and Kate dive deep into the chaos of modern parenting, focusing on the ever-evolving challenges of setting boundaries around technology and screen time with their kids. They blend honest confessions, relatable humor, and tangible research-backed advice while navigating tech fatigue, discipline struggles, sibling dynamics, and the mental load of motherhood. This episode is packed with real stories (bathroom disasters and all), candid insights into their own parenting wins and mishaps, plus an exploration of how digital culture is shaping kids today.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Weekly Chaos: Travel, Discipline, and Mayhem

• Vacations with kids aren't exactly vacations: Justine reflects on her week in Mexico, realizing how different parenting is when traveling, and the importance of flexible routines.
  • “If Lincoln wasn’t there, to be honest, we wouldn’t have done a lot of the things that we got to do.” (01:00)
• Homefront Disasters: Cait details her own week from hell: a broken toilet, bathroom renovations gone awry, people coming and going, and managing household chaos without functioning bathrooms.
  • “If anyone wanted a reason to take their birth control, there’s a great one.” (08:14, Cait)
• Discipline updates:
  • Justine sets clear boundaries with her kids around chores and screens. She removes social media from Lincoln’s phone and outlines expectations post-vacation.
  • Cait describes feeling underslept and overwhelmed, admitting to struggles with empathy for her son Gage during tough moments.

2. Screen Time, Technology, and Digital Discipline

• Why tech discipline is HARD: Both moms confess to relying on screens more than they’d like, especially when dealing with household emergencies or needing to keep the peace.
  • “I allowed my kids to watch TV on and off all day today because I had people working upstairs... and there was no way that I could have three men that the kids wanted to be involved in working in my house without a television.” (14:52, Cait)
• Mom Guilt & Realistic Limits:
  • The debate over “no screens under 18 months,” engagement vs. babysitter use, and being a middle-class mom without endless resources.
  • Both push back on rigid screen time ideals, emphasizing that having multiple kids (and older siblings) complicates implementation.

Notable Quotes:

• “Do I agree with it? Yes. But thinking that it’s possible... to say that I’m never going to let my child even watch a Disney movie?” (22:02, Justine)
• “Our middle class working situation is like, we’re working hard, and we are the most stressed and most stretched out financially... We don’t have all the extra money to do every extracurricular.” (20:49, Cait)

3. Screens & Kids: Impact and Medical Research

• Boston Children’s Hospital Digital Wellness Lab: Kate shares resources and research on healthy media use:
  • Interactive media addiction is a diagnosed condition, now with its own clinic (15:56).
  • “A child’s brain has not yet developed to the point where they can learn from digital media as effectively as from interacting with caregivers and peers” (21:49, Cait reading)
• Obesity and Media:
  • Most kids’ channels and ads promote unhealthy foods (18:20); kids are influenced by what they see online.
  • Wealthier families insulate kids; middle-class families struggle most with screen time boundaries.
• Social Media and Mental Health:
  • Kids who start social media before age 10 are more likely to exhibit problematic digital behaviors (37:09).
  • Discussion of self-esteem issues due to metrics like “likes,” especially among teens and tweens (39:04).
  • “That’s a whole other topic – social media and your self-esteem.” (39:04, Justine)

4. Practical Parenting: Rules, Rituals, and Reassessments

• Parental Modeling & Work Boundaries:

  • Kids mimic device usage; setting work hours and physically putting the phone away helps.
  • “I feel like that’s default parent shit… your brain is never stopping.” (28:04, Justine)

• Family Mealtimes & Tech-Free Goals:

  • Mealtime phone bans promote bonding and healthier eating (32:55).
  • Aiming for at least one family meal per week; adjusting expectations based on family schedules and custody arrangements.
  • “There should be at least one meal a week at least where we are all together, period.” (34:45, Justine)

• Boredom Builds Resilience:

  • Both hosts emphasize the importance of allowing kids to be bored as a spark for creativity and self-regulation.
  • “Kids have to be bored. You can’t entertain them 24 hours a day.” (52:14, Cait)
  • Over-reliance on screens stunts emotional regulation and coping skills (54:51).

• Discipline Tactics:

  • “In order to get their screens, they need to have one loving interaction with each other.” (53:33, Justine)
  • Accountability and adaptability when screen plans inevitably go awry.

5. Digital Safety & Supervision

• Monitoring Phones: Both moms check their kid’s devices, feeling it’s their responsibility for digital safety—especially with boys connecting online.
  • “If you’re not going to give me your password, then you will not have a phone.” (58:14, Justine)
• Creepy & Disturbing Group Chats: Justine finds bizarre, borderline disturbing texts in her son Lincoln’s group chat (62:36–63:41). This sparks a discussion about the need for adult oversight due to real digital risks—even among young kids.
• AI, Sexting, and New Dangers: Cait brings up the new concern over AI-generated sexual images, and the increasing risks of digital identities and imagery for kids and teens (43:34–45:07).
  • “Imagine someone’s like, oh, you can’t be hired because there’s nudes of you going around and you’re like, that’s not even my body.” (45:20, Cait)

---

Notable & Memorable Moments

• Birth control as a punchline:

  • “If anyone wanted a reason to take their birth control, there’s a great one.” (08:14, Cait)

• Astrology and the Eclipse Blame-Game:

  • Humorous riff on blaming the eclipse for their week’s disasters (09:04, 09:54).

• Coping with mayhem:

  • “Our entire week was mayhem. Thanks Eclipse.” (68:58, Cait)
  • “Eclipse come eclipse again… We need every year. Re-eclipse.” (69:10–69:12)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:49–03:55 – Discipline update: setting screen rules, removing apps, vacation recap
• 04:45–10:03 – Cait’s disastrous week: bathroom meltdowns, broken toilets, birth control humor
• 14:04–17:15 – Introduction to screen time and tech discipline struggles
• 15:56–21:53 – Boston Children’s Hospital resources on media addiction, obesity, and tech recommendations
• 24:55–26:04 – Interactive co-viewing and why engagement matters
• 32:55–34:45 – Research on mealtime screens and family bonding
• 39:04–41:03 – Social media, self-esteem, and time spent on screens; eight-plus hours a day for teens
• 43:34–45:07 – AI, sexting, and digital identity dangers discussed
• 57:21–65:00 – Monitoring kids’ devices; group chat horror story
• 66:44–69:18 – “Mindful of Mayhem” – deep breathing rituals, re-centering after chaos

---

Concluding Takeaways

• Balance Over Perfection: Both moms strive for reasonable, not rigid, screen time boundaries.
• Tech Boundaries Are Necessary, But Difficult: The digital world is moving fast; parents must adapt and stay (somewhat) vigilant—even when kids push back, and life gets chaotic.
• Model What You Preach: Adult habits matter; disengage from the phone to connect with your kids.
• Digital Literacy Is More Than ‘No Screens’: It’s about teaching critical thinking, monitoring, trust, and creating space for boredom, creativity, and offline bonding.
• Grace is Key: Whether you nap during the day, miss a family meal, or let the kids have TV so you can survive a repairman invasion—it’s all part of the mayhem.

---

Favorite Quotes Recap:

• “Children could destroy your entire house in about five seconds.” (08:41, Cait)
• “Our default parent shit… your brain is never stopping because you have X amount of kids.” (28:04, Justine)
• “Kids have to be bored. You can’t entertain them 24 hours a day.” (52:14, Cait)

---

Resources Mentioned:

• Boston Children’s Hospital Digital Wellness Lab
• Open app for child-friendly meditation

---

Final Tone:
Honest, irreverently funny, occasionally exasperated—but always supportive and empathetic towards parents navigating the relentless, ever-digital mayhem of raising kids today.

---

Transcript

[Kate]

Welcome to.

[Justine]

I'm Justine.

[Kate]

And I'm Kate.

[Justine]

That was the mayhem.

[Kate]

So we must be the moms.

[Justine]

You know that Doris song. We did it. We did it. We did it. Yeah.

[Kate]

We are hardly doing anything.

[Justine]

Okay.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Justine]

Well. All right. Welcome back to another episode.

[Kate]

It's been a week.

[Justine]

Oh, it's been like a hell of a week. Yeah. Yeah, it has. If our setup looks different today, it's because it is. It'll be better next week. We'll work on it.

[Kate]

This is not the look.

[Justine]

We had to change locations.

[Kate]

Whatever. We're here now.

[Justine]

Yes.

[Kate]

Well, first, how'd your discipline life go?

[Justine]

Oh, well, I really. So we were in Mexico for a week and I only had Lincoln.

[Kate]

It looked wonderful.

[Justine]

It was. I mean, we had the kids there, so as expected, it's not like a full vacation, but it was still really beautiful. And if Lincoln wasn't there, to be honest, we wouldn't have done a lot of the things that we got to do. And a lot of those things were fun and beautiful. So that's great. We just did different shit, you know?

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Justine]

We didn't sit by the beach for the whole week. You know, we just. We did cool stuff, but it was definitely felt like a break having just Lincoln and Damie, you know?

[Kate]

Yeah. I mean, those are your easiest two.

[Justine]

Not the easiest, but the easiest together.

[Kate]

Yeah, they're the easiest together.

[Justine]

Yeah. So that was that. So when we got back, I got them back on. I got them back Sunday at 4, and then they had school Monday and Tuesday, and then they went back to see. So I didn't want to push rules on them knowing that I, like, just got back. I kind of laid out the rules and wrote them out and I showed them what to expect when they come back to my house, but I didn't push them on them.

[Kate]

Did they have complaints about what you showed them? Was there, like, pushback? Or was it like.

[Justine]

Benny just doesn't understand why he needs any rules in life.

[Kate]

Same, I don't know. Hate rules. I get it.

[Justine]

The chores that I gave them are super, super simple. But, yeah, so whatever. I'm gonna take it as it goes.

[Kate]

Yeah, that's good.

[Justine]

I deleted. I took Lincoln's phone and deleted all of his social media.

[Kate]

I love that. How did he feel about that?

[Justine]

He actually didn't give me any backlash. I told him Tick Tock is just a hard no. Snapchat hard no. And then I let him keep YouTube because. Because he watches, like, the YouTube shorts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The only thing that really is left is his games and YouTube and I put his phone on like this mode where from I think it was 8pm to 8am like you can't access any of your apps.

[Kate]

I love that. And I should do that from my phone. So.

[Justine]

Yeah, so Lincoln was pretty receptive. I basically told him what we spoke about and I just said, listen, I could either take away your phone and give you a phone where you can just text and you can't have games, you can have YouTube, you can have anything, or you can respect my rules. Yeah, choice is yours.

[Kate]

That's good. I think it's good to give him control of that.

[Justine]

And I just told him like, your rules are always going to be different than Benny and Aiden's because you're younger.

[Kate]

Younger. Sorry, just say like, when you're their age, you'll get the same things they have.

[Justine]

That's what I said. So that was my disciplining, basically. And Damie, no more iPad in the car.

[Kate]

I love that.

[Justine]

And he's doing great.

[Kate]

Yeah, he'll be fine.

[Justine]

He actually, he's so funny because I put on the Turnstile album that he is obsessed with and he's like, sit in the back seat, like, moshing.

[Kate]

That's all it is. He's good.

[Justine]

That's what fucking music.

[Kate]

That's my boy.

[Justine]

Right, so go ahead.

[Kate]

Well, first, my discipline and stuff with the kids has been questionable. I think what like I'm having the hardest time is when I'm in it with Gage and he's like, they're just at such trying ages right now. I feel like Gage is really trying to ignore everything I say and do everything his way, which I understand. But I'm forgetting of empathy towards him because, like, when I'm in it, I'm just like stressed the fuck out. I'm just like, underslept. Underslept. Yeah. I'm not gonna get enough sleep. Clearly. Obviously. Clearly. I like to Tony, working all these hours is just making me feel crazy. It's been impossible. It's like I have not had the break or the peace or the rest to reset my brain and then come back to it with like a clear head. I am like, you really need to get ready for school today. I said something like, I don't even remember what I said, but he yelled it back in my face and I was like, oh my God, why? I started taking the toys out of his backpack. I was like, that's it. You're bringing none of these toys to school.

[Justine]

Like, oh my God.

[Kate]

You're not supposed to bring Toys to school. Anyway, I don't know what else to do sometimes I'm just at my point of insanity.

[Justine]

Yep.

[Kate]

And it's been very hard. It's been very hard for me to like, put myself in his shoes and understand. Yes, I know you're going through it and it's hard right now.

[Justine]

Feelings are big, but.

[Kate]

Feelings are big.

[Justine]

But also my feelings are big.

[Kate]

Exhausted.

[Justine]

Yeah, that's. Tony's schedule is hard.

[Kate]

Tony's schedule is hard. But also. Let's talk about this ridiculous week I've had. So my tub and my tiles have been peeling in my bathroom upstairs because when they redid my house, they just like glazed the tub and tiles and they didn't replace them, which is fine. I mean, I've had my house six years. It's been fine. So we were like, all right, we have to reglaze them because we don't have. We don't have bathroom renovation money.

[Justine]

Yeah.

[Kate]

Right. Now who has bathroom renovation money?

[Justine]

No one does. It's so expensive to do that. That's like one of the most expensive other than the kitchen.

[Kate]

Right. So we're like, all right, we'll do that. We'll glaze and do the whole bathroom upstairs. So we made this plan on Tuesday for them to come today at 8am Then yesterday, as we were brushing our teeth, Axel hulked the toilet tank cover and shattered it into like six pieces,

[Justine]

which I still don't understand.

[Kate]

I do not understand.

[Justine]

But anyway, so I like, I truly don't understand.

[Kate]

It was so ridiculous. I'm like, he's not even two and he's destroying things.

[Justine]

How can a toddler do that?

[Kate]

It was very impressive. I've never been so impressed in my life. But also so like, okay, so I didn't get mad, obviously. What am I going to do? I was just like, erin, we're done with the bathroom.

[Justine]

Yeah.

[Kate]

So then come today. The guys have been in my bathroom all day long, which is also why I'm exhausted and stressed, because I had to clear up the upstairs bathroom, get everything ready, make sure everything's downstairs. So we weren't going.

[Justine]

And then there's a bottom in your house.

[Kate]

There's people in my house at the same time. My father in law, who I love more than life itself, and he's the best, was building railing onto my back steps. So I have big man in my backyard. Random people I don't know upstairs in my bathroom, which we cannot use for 24 hours. We can't go in the bathroom.

[Justine]

Okay.

[Kate]

We can't take a Shower. So that as I was driving here, Tony called me and said, the entire downstairs toilet is actually cracked. It must have been like a hairline crack. And it finally exploded in the tank of the downstairs toilet.

[Justine]

Oh, my.

[Kate]

So now my downstairs toilet is leaking all over my bathroom, and I'm gonna have to fully replace the toilet downstairs.

[Justine]

Okay.

[Kate]

So not only can we not use the toilet upstairs because it's in the chemical infested bathroom reglaze situation.

[Justine]

Oh, my God.

[Kate]

But we can't use the toilet downstairs because Axel cracked the entire toilet. Now there's water everywhere.

[Justine]

So you don't have any bathroom.

[Kate]

We have a backyard and a kitchen sink. So basically, it's been fantastic. If anyone wanted a reason to take

[Justine]

their birth control, there's a great one. I got you.

[Kate]

You've just about covered it.

[Justine]

Here's your reminder to take your birth control today.

[Kate]

Oh, my God. Here is your alarm. If you cannot afford two new bathrooms, I highly suggest. I highly suggest. Keep taking.

[Justine]

You. Don't poke a hole in the condom.

[Kate]

Please do.

[Justine]

Not people even wear condoms anymore?

[Kate]

I don't think so. I don't know anything about condom use, but I do know that children could destroy your entire house in about five seconds.

[Justine]

Yeah.

[Kate]

It's been a great two days, three days.

[Justine]

That sounds lovely.

[Kate]

I'm so exhausted.

[Justine]

I'm like, it's been a fucking hell of a week.

[Kate]

I feel like. Okay. And I'm not very like.

[Justine]

No, I know what you're gonna say.

[Kate]

The moon changes this.

[Justine]

Yeah.

[Kate]

And then this entire week.

[Justine]

Yeah. I'm not. I'm not super, like, astrology, like, changes life. And I don't go to my day to day with thinking about it, but, like, not even a full week.

[Kate]

It has been.

[Justine]

It hasn't even been a full, like, literally three days since the eclipse.

[Kate]

I made fun of the eclipse the entire day because I kept being like, Eclipse 2024 fake news. It wasn't. You know, everyone thought it was gonna be, like, dark out. And people were like, I cried. I had an emotional reaction. My mom and I were like, what are you doing? Talking about? And now I'm like, I'm crying daily since. What are you talking about? I had no emotional response whatsoever. Now I'm like, please, can that happen again? Can we, like, reverse. I promise more of an emotional connection to this eclipse if it prevents hawks

[Justine]

and broken toilet seats and reglazing your bathroom.

[Kate]

Before the eclipse, both my bathrooms worked. After the eclipse, no bathroom.

[Justine]

Wow.

[Kate]

Tell me why.

[Justine]

I had a. Yeah, I had a full.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Justine]

What happened with the bugs yesterday was scary. I haven't had a panic attack like that in so long. I was literally shaking. I couldn't catch my breath. I was freaking out. And then on top of it, Max was also panicking because of the mess and the clutter in the apartment because we're mid eight loads of laundry mid unpacking from Mexico. And all of those bugs just, like, surfaced.

[Kate]

Do they came back with you from Mexico?

[Justine]

I thought that. But they're carpenter ants.

[Kate]

Okay.

[Justine]

But yes. So just like crazy. I threw the old couch out, the one armchair thing. I threw out my vacuum. And.

[Kate]

Yeah, it's been a couple of weird days.

[Justine]

A really weird, bizarre shit going on.

[Kate]

I literally spent the entire Day watching YouTube videos on how to discipline my child. By the way, did you, like, three hours today.

[Justine]

Learning, learning and growing.

[Kate]

I'm trying so hard. My mom is, like, the most cynical person in the entire world. She's like, the dry sense of humor. And she's watching this being like. Because it would be like, give your toddler a choice. And my mom was like, all right. I gave him a choice. Change his poop diaper or don't change his poop diaper. And he said, don't change it. What do you do now? And I was like, I don't know. It was like, guide him in the correct choice. And she was like, he is spinning around screaming that. Of changing his poop diaper. I gave him an option. I don't really have the answer.

[Justine]

Yeah, there's some. Some ages and some times where there is no answer. It's just like, the answer is you

[Kate]

have to get your diaper changed.

[Justine]

Yeah.

[Kate]

You have to leave the park. Like, you have to do the thing.

[Justine]

Yeah, there's just like. Like Damie right now. Ever since our first Florida trip, which was what, two months ago now. And this isn't the worst thing to be complaining about. He always wants to be outside. But which is.

[Kate]

Which is great.

[Justine]

Amazing. It's great.

[Kate]

You can always be outside. But.

[Justine]

But also. And I'm in an apartment complex. It's not like I could just walk inside and watch him from the kitchen and. And, you know, do the dishes while I'm watching him.

[Kate]

Or.

[Justine]

You know what I mean? Like, that's not a thing. So it's like, if I go in, you have to go in. And.

[Kate]

And, yeah, Axel has a really hard time.

[Justine]

Screams and freaks out. Well, there's, like, worse things to be, like, complaining about than our kids wanting to be outside. Like, I don't want to complain about it. But at the same time, it's just like. It's exhausting when you have to drag a screaming toddler or I have to walk outside to take the trash out and he's screaming at the door. You know what I mean?

[Kate]

Like, no, of course I get that. I literally was just trying to change Axel's diaper because he pooped and he had a full mental breakdown to the point where he was tearing and snotty and a complete disaster. I don't understand. I don't understand why you want to walk around with poop in your pants, but whatever. Then after I did it, he was so mad at me that I changed his diaper, that he kicked a ball. And my mom was behind him just hysterically laughing. And I was like, ax, I love you. And I tried to give him a kiss, and he went and he wiped his kiss off of him. He literally smacked himself in the face to wipe my kisses off of him and then made this ridiculous face and folded his arms across his and stood in the corner and just glared at me.

[Justine]

He was pissed.

[Kate]

I was like, holy, I thought you would be happy this is over.

[Justine]

He was pissed that you had to remove the shit from his pants.

[Kate]

He said I was keeping it to sit. I was. That was my comfort.

[Justine]

I never understand that. Like, what they always say, like, why do kids give a hard time about changing shitty diapers, going down for a nap, and eating food?

[Kate]

Oh, Axel won't eat anything other than garlic knots right now. He's had a strictly garlic fat diet.

[Justine]

I love that for him. Bulking. It's bulking season. Axel cannot bulk anymore.

[Kate]

If Axel bulks anymore, I can't lift him.

[Justine]

Okay.

[Kate]

I'm going to have to hire someone.

[Justine]

All right, well, since we talked about our eclipse weeks, I really. I really want to talk about screens and electronics, technology. I think it's good to talk about technology and electronics and, like, screen time and stuff because it's kind of coming off of the discipline.

[Kate]

That's what I was thinking.

[Justine]

Yeah.

[Kate]

Like, because so much of your.

[Justine]

We did kind of touch on it last week a little bit with the older kids, obviously. I'm, like, deep in it with my kids. It's a constant struggle. And even with the baby, I had to take a step back for sure. But that's what I was saying before.

[Kate]

I mean. Yeah, you definitely had to take a step back.

[Justine]

Yeah.

[Kate]

I will tell you right now that I allowed my kids to watch TV on and off all day today because I had people working upstairs and my father in law working in the backyard. And there was no way that I could have three men that the kids wanted to be involved in working in my house without a television. And I would put it on, and then I'd get frustrated with Gage. That's it, you're done. I'm not doing it anymore. I hate it. And then I'd be like, all right,

[Justine]

well, that was like yesterday when I had to bomb my whole apartment and clean everything. Damien laid in bed with Max and watched Moana.

[Kate]

I mean, you gotta do.

[Justine]

And then he was in the living room and I put Secret Life of Pets on, and he kind of just like he was doing stuff, but he was really focused on it, so. Well, Boston helped me get away.

[Kate]

Children's Hospital has an entire website or part of their website dedicated to, like, media use and technology in children.

[Justine]

Okay.

[Kate]

And they.

[Justine]

Is that the website you were talking to me about, telling me about? Yes.

[Kate]

So they actually have a clinic for interactive media and Internet disorders. Oh, that's like a legit diagnosis now that people. And like.

[Justine]

It's an addiction.

[Kate]

Yeah, yeah, it's like a legit addiction. And it's a unit. It's a legit unit in the hospital now.

[Justine]

Holy shit. That's scary.

[Kate]

Yeah, It's a unit within the adolescent and young adult medicine part at Boston Children's Hospital. It's genuinely affecting people. It is.

[Justine]

And when I was listening back to our episode, I think you are right where we said that. Well, you had mentioned that you think that it's going to get a little bit better because people are, especially the parents that are like, super aware, you know, a lot of the parents that are the. The crunchy moms that are homeschooling their kids and doing all this, like, there's

[Kate]

a lot of homesteading shit happening now. Right.

[Justine]

Yeah. And though that group of parents are starting to realize the negative effects that screens have on kids. Kids and teens and adolescents. And I think you're right. I think it's gonna get. I feel like it'll get a little bit worse and then I feel like it'll gradually start to get a little bit better.

[Kate]

I think in the next like five to 10 years, it's gonna peak because like, whatever kids are kind of coming up on the phone thing now.

[Justine]

Yeah.

[Kate]

Because there's still a lot of wishy washy time.

[Justine]

Like my kids age group.

[Kate]

Yeah. That's. I think after it. They're deep in it. They are especially like Aiden's like. Yeah, Aiden and Benny are deep in it. This said that. Okay, so this is A lab that has been evaluating treating an increasing number of children, adolescents and young adults in their clinic whose excess online activities have caused problems with sleep, school, social functioning and various aspects of physical and mental health. It says our team can help you address and reduce the negative consequences of problematic interactive media use and other media related health disorders from obesity to aggression.

[Justine]

Geez.

[Kate]

So I was doing a lot of research about that obesity thing and they said that the problem. Well, this is part of this because this is a whole website that you can dig down and it has different recommendations and information about technology and the technology use for different age groups. So they have like infants and toddlers and I'll go through some of them specifically. And they have like ages 6 to 9 and then it keeps going from there.

[Justine]

And what, where is this again? I'm sorry?

[Kate]

Boston Children's Hospital Boston. Okay, so the thing with obesity is that they said that most kids YouTube channels that kids are watching, they don't show healthy eating habits. They only show the fattening food that kids are into. Right?

[Justine]

Yeah.

[Kate]

So you don't realize like people aren't writing songs about salads. You know, my kids, there's a burger song and they sing this burger song.

[Justine]

Or they're like, Gracie's Corner has a vegetable song.

[Kate]

Oh, that's good. I love Gracie's Corner. But I mean a majority of them when they're older, like older kids aren't watching Gracie's Corner.

[Justine]

No. And so they say and what you're saying to go on to. So first of all, I know Lincoln's age, they used to do the unboxing, like those kinder chocolate eggs or whatever that. And then I do notice a lot of these video game age kind of, I would say anywhere from like 15 to 25 even. Most of the companies that sponsor their YouTubes are like Gatorade, Prime, Doritos, oh, 100 Pringles. You know what I mean? Like all these companies that.

[Kate]

Well, because they know who they're for. You they know who is the people who are gonna be fighting to buy their products. You and I are not like, we really need Pringles right now.

[Justine]

It's their market audience.

[Kate]

Their market audience is gonna.

[Justine]

Yeah.

[Kate]

And that there's people that get paid

[Justine]

a lot of money to specifically target those people.

[Kate]

Right. That makes a lot of sense.

[Justine]

And to know what they're targeting them for.

[Kate]

And that's so disturbing.

[Justine]

It's so disturbing. It's like literally we're gonna do this on purpose even though we. Those people that get paid to do all those things. Probably eat fucking salads and don't even eat Doritos. Oh, well, Gatorade and Prime.

[Kate]

There's like a lot of research based on that. The people who make phones and make technology and computers that are supposed to be going towards children, they don't allow their own children to watch them 100%.

[Justine]

I could see that.

[Kate]

So they know the damage that's being done, but obviously they rather make money on it.

[Justine]

It's a selfish thing.

[Kate]

It's a selfish thing.

[Justine]

It's all selfish. It's all money. That's everything.

[Kate]

But also the demographic of it makes a lot of sense. Right? Like the wealthiest of wealthy people, they have more time and energy to put towards people. You know, they could pay for their kids to go to like Gym Breeze. They could pay for their kids to be in classes. They could pay for their kids to do all these extracurriculars to keep.

[Justine]

Or they're just like on vacations all the time and keeping busy.

[Kate]

Yeah. Or they have like nannies or someone to help them with the kids.

[Justine]

Yeah, that's true.

[Kate]

Our middle class working situation is like, we're working hard, our husbands are working hard, and we are the most stressed and most stretched out financially. So we don't have all the extra money to do every extracurricular that you could possibly sign your kid up for.

[Justine]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Kate]

So they have a lot of free time that they have to entertain themselves. And then unfortunately, like lower income families don't have enough, don't have the extra money to even get their kids the cell phone and get their kids a thing. It's the middle class issue. All right, so I'm gonna read you some of these things and you tell me how you feel about it. Okay? So it says from zero to age two, a child's brain has not yet developed to the point where they can learn from digital media as effectively as they learn from interacting with caregivers and peers. Most babies and toddlers are better served learning by interaction with their physical world than the digital environment. For any child under 18 months, technology and media should be only used for video chatting with family and friends. Okay, so like no videos, no YouTube,

[Justine]

no games, no games, no movies that like, no TV too. Yeah, right.

[Kate]

Yeah. Because honestly, they say that kids under 18 should never even be exposed as TV and screens. And I knew that, but I failed

[Justine]

at that because, I mean, I knew that, but. So here's the thing. Do I agree with it? Yes. But we are middle class, right? And we live on Long island and it's 2024 thinking that it's possible. I mean, of course it's. Is it possible? Yeah. But to say that I am never going to let my child even watch a Disney movie.

[Kate]

Right. Also, it's very hard when they have older siblings. If I only had Axl and didn't have Gage, and it was like, I'm home all day with him and I could take him to the library, I could take him to the park. I could. Like, it's much easier to. From the age of birth to 18 months, it's easier to bring them places and entertain them with things other than screens when they don't have an older sibling that you're also bringing along.

[Justine]

That's true. Because, like, also, too, though, some parts of Damie that I love that, like, he does is he gets excited when he sees Olaf or, you know what? Like, it also adds interaction and sometimes it adds some learning as well. Like, all of the stuff that Damie learned originally was from Ms. Rachel. Like, does he still watch it now?

[Kate]

No.

[Justine]

And am I trying to cut it out? Yeah, because it was excessive. Because he literally wouldn't be in the car without the iPad. Now, just this week, I took away the iPad, and he's. We're listening to music and we're doing other things and we're talking, and I give him a book, and he tells me that he sees the duck and the dog and the this and the that. And, like, so am I. Am I taking a step back a little? Yes. But am I going to say that I think it's. Yeah, I guess if I didn't have the older kids, it would be a different topic of conversation. But I don't even know what that's like.

[Kate]

So I don't know what it's like either. But, like, I understand why parents of only children can say, I didn't let my kids watch greens till over 18 months. Because it's much easier when you have just a baby. Gage doesn't watch screens in the car or when we go places. It's not because of that. It's just because sometimes we can't get out of the house. Because taking two kids out of the house to go to the library, take two kids out of the house to go to the park is much more difficult than taking one kid out and going shopping or something.

[Justine]

You know, they have different interests.

[Kate]

They have different interests, and it's just harder for one person to take two kids out than is to take one

[Justine]

kid when you're outnumbered. Right. Oh, 100% like if, like, on days that I'm just taking Damie to the grocery store, it's so easy. So easy.

[Kate]

Right.

[Justine]

But even with my kids being older, if I'm taking Damie and Lincoln and Benny, I spend more money than I have to.

[Kate]

I.

[Justine]

Like, they're arguing in the back. They're. Someone wants to push the car. Like, it's just. Like, it's hectic.

[Kate]

It's hectic, hectic, hectic.

[Justine]

It's a hiccup.

[Kate]

Like, a hiccup. Anyway, it says after 18 months, toddler screens can be expanded to include watching children's center programming with an engaged parent or caregiver.

[Justine]

Engaged keyword.

[Kate]

We could watch Frozen together. And I could be like, do you see the horse?

[Justine]

Yeah.

[Kate]

Do you see the snowman? Do you see the reindeer?

[Justine]

Let's sing the song and we'll sing

[Kate]

together and we'll play. It can't be a babysitter.

[Justine]

What age Was that, too?

[Kate]

So 18 months to two to three toddlers.

[Justine]

Okay.

[Kate]

And then it says, this is very obvious. It says that research shows that when parents use more media, children use more media, and when technology interrupts interactions together, it will result in a higher likelihood of behavior problems in children.

[Justine]

Yep.

[Kate]

So it's like if you're being frequently disrupted or distracted with calls, text, or social media while spending time with your child, your child's more likely to act out. Because this goes back to what we were saying last week. Kids are always looking for attention.

[Justine]

Yep.

[Kate]

So if their attention's being taken away from them because of your phone, which is something I think we're all.

[Justine]

Oh, yeah, we're all guilty.

[Kate]

All guilty of all the time that your kids will act worse to get your attention. Because they don't care if it's good or bad attention.

[Justine]

Right.

[Kate]

They just want someone to pay attention to them.

[Justine]

That's another thing I'm trying to figure out,

[Kate]

like, working hours on your phone.

[Justine]

Exactly. Like, if I say Monday, Wednesday, Friday, I go take my Pilates class, and then I go to the coffee shop for an hour after, and I literally spend that hour making content and doing everything that I have to do for the week so that when I am at home. Because that's the thing is, like, yesterday I was cleaning, but also was picking up my phone. Max texts me, I need to make a post for the soccer game. I need a. I need to make a post for moms raising Mayhem. I need to make a post for this. And then I'll be like, oh, I'd love to make my own post. On my own Instagram. And then I'm doing that, and then I'm a perfectionist, so I'm editing it and doing all this stuff, and then I'm answering texts in between and getting sidetracked, and then I'm ordering shit on Amazon. Like, there's so many unnecessary things that. But it's all because I picked up my phone to do work. So I feel like if I have work hours where I'm focused on making all the content that I need, I will be picking up my phone less.

[Kate]

Well, I think that this is even for me, who I don't really work on my phone. It's. If I look at my phone for five seconds, my brain does this thing where I think of all the things I need to accomplish. So even if it's something including my kids, like, I'm like, oh, I want a wallpaper Gage's room. Or I start showing him different wallpapers, and then I fall down a rabbit hole of other wallpapers I like that I want to bring up. And then I go, oh, I want to throw him a birthday party. So I start looking up different Long island birthday party places or things that we can have in my backyard. And then I fall down rabbit holes of party plates and decor. And it's, like, so stupid. But it's one little thing in your brain that's like spirals. You don't forget that this is coming up and you need to do this. You. You spiral down a hole, and all of a sudden you're like, shit, I've been on my phone for 45 minutes. Yep. It's hard. Like, me especially, I'm like, my brain doesn't stop. It doesn't know when to stop. It just keeps on going.

[Justine]

But that's like. I think that's default parent shit.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Justine]

You know what I mean? Because it's like you are so filled to the point where it's overflowing, where it's like your brain is never stopping because you have X amount of kids. You're thinking about X amount of things that you need to get done for them, and it's just, like, so much. And then you're thinking about what's for dinner, and then you're. All of a sudden, you're planning meals. And then for me, I order groceries on my phone. There's so many things. Don't get me wrong, the phone is great. Is it for the fact that I can just, in one click, spend 15 minutes and have all of my groceries delivered to my door?

[Kate]

Right.

[Justine]

Is it great. Of course.

[Kate]

Right.

[Justine]

But, like, is it great?

[Kate]

I feel like it's not. I feel like the world is a much better place when you had to do this at a computer, when you had to physically leave your room that your kids were in or whatever and walk to an office. When I was growing up, we had one computer and we all took turns on it and we didn't get to spend, like, an exuberant amount of time on it. Yeah, we'd be like, all right, well, you get a little bit of time playing. And, like, we'd all take turns. And it was great because you couldn't just fall down holes for hours.

[Justine]

It does more harm than good.

[Kate]

It's made it too convenient.

[Justine]

And that, like, has to go with people being lazy and.

[Kate]

Well, because it's everything. So I think it was actually better when, like, my alarm clock wasn't on my phone. Right. Because when my alarm goes off, I have to pick up my phone to turn it off. And then my phone's in my hand.

[Justine]

So you're answering text.

[Kate]

So I'm answering text messages and I'm looking at something on my phone. Or I'm checking the weather, which I could just look out the window and say, but since your phone's in your head, your brain automatically is like, click these three buttons. Yeah, do this stuff. Instead of. When you hit an alarm clock, you would just turn off the alarm clock and nothing happened after.

[Justine]

There's no steps. There's. I'm going to get out of bed now.

[Kate]

There's no three apps to click after that. Alarm clock.

[Justine]

Yeah. No, you're 100% right. It's. It's definitely. And not only has it become so convenient for us, but it's also. It's just made our kids so lazy.

[Kate]

I really think it's making our kids

[Justine]

act out a lot more acting out and just. It almost gives them in, like, an entitlement.

[Kate]

Especially the older ones.

[Justine]

Yeah. Like. Like I was saying before, Benny thinks that he doesn't need to do chores. It's just like.

[Kate]

Well, because I think with the phone and kids being able to access the Internet, they're able. Well, this is not just kids. This is like my husband. This is you. This is everyone in the world. You are always able to find. I've said this before. You're always able to find someone who agrees with you on the phone.

[Justine]

Oh, definitely. Like, that's for sure.

[Kate]

If your kids are to fall down a rabbit hole to find kids that don't have chores, that don't have to do anything. And they will show you and be like, well, these kids don't have that. And I shouldn't either. We're the same age and the same, same kind of demographic. And this is how life should be. You could always find someone who supports you on your phone when I didn't have never ending access to the random ways.

[Justine]

It's almost like if you're looking for trouble, you're gonna find it.

[Kate]

I've always been good at that one. But, you know, it's definitely made it easier to find someone who backs you. And it gives you more of an argument. Like, everyone's a lawyer now, right? Everyone is able to argue their point

[Justine]

and have everyone gets relationship advice and parenting advice and all of these advices from TikTok and Instagram. And then it's like, but for the

[Kate]

good, the bad, the ugly.

[Justine]

Yeah, it's. It's also not just advice, but like even just they get support.

[Kate]

They.

[Justine]

You could get. It's not just support. What am I trying to say? Say like, you had the thought one day that the dishes should only be your husband's job. And then you, you go on TikTok and then you see all these videos about all of these great TikTok husbands that do the dishes. You're going to be like, see, they fucking do it 100%. And then it's going to cause more trouble in your relationship.

[Kate]

There's a lot of things that the phone have. And just like your constant access to technology and the Internet has made things much harder.

[Justine]

And it's like the, the whole, the

[Kate]

grass is always greener, right? Like, you will always find someone who you think's life is better because it's only showing the best of people's lives, right? Unlike us. This is not the best of my life.

[Justine]

We do not show the best of our life.

[Kate]

This is my unshowered because I have no bathroom version of my life. And then this says that when parents use their devices during meal time, families lose out on important bonding time with their children and risk development of less healthy eating practices. It says research suggests that the more devices that are available during meal time, the fewer healthy foods are included in the meal.

[Justine]

Makes sense.

[Kate]

So not media may not only be affecting how much children eat, but they're affecting what they eat as well.

[Justine]

Okay.

[Kate]

It's said during meal time, turn off the television, make sure the tablets and smartphones are turned off and not in the room.

[Justine]

I like that a lot.

[Kate]

I think that that's very important because right now I'm not doing that because we're not eating meals together as a family because Tony's getting home at.

[Justine]

Yeah, I don't even. We were just talking about that today. Damie hardly ever sits down with anybody for that matter. Like, usually he's. He has his little tower that he stands on and he stands at the counter while I make dinner and he just like snacks on foods while I'm making dinner. Like, that's so ass backwards. Like, there should at least be a couple nights a week where we are sitting down at the dinner table.

[Kate]

I think that's a goal. Like, when Tony's not on this overtime,

[Justine]

that's 100% a problem.

[Kate]

I love doing that. Recently, my friend and I. My friend Catherine and I used to always have Tuesday night meals together. And then we fell off and then she recently texted me and we're like, all right. Tuesday nights, like, she comes to my house, me and her cook a meal while our kids play outside in the yard.

[Justine]

It's just so good for everyone.

[Kate]

And we eat together.

[Justine]

Yeah.

[Kate]

And I feel like that's important. Like, it's important to have a bonding time.

[Justine]

Definitely.

[Kate]

Where you sit and you talk and you eat.

[Justine]

Definitely. As. As insane as my childhood was, that was one thing that, like, Sunday night dinners were a fucking. Like. I mean, my mom always cooked dinner. Like, we always had dinner and meals and we always sat down. But Sunday night we would have friends come over and there would just be a shit ton of us sitting at the table. My mom would make a huge dinner and we'd all sit around the table and eat and talk and like, that's the way it should be. There should be at least one dinner night of week where, like, for me it's really hard because obviously half my kids are out of the house half the week, so. But there should be at least. But like, if you're one night a

[Kate]

week together on Saturdays or you're all

[Justine]

together, that has to be. And it doesn't have to be dinner because sometimes dinner doesn't work because kids are everywhere and Max is working on the weekends. But, like, there should be one meal a week at least where we are all together, period.

[Kate]

Yes, that is a goal. I feel like that's an important goal.

[Justine]

Hear that, babe?

[Kate]

Goals.

[Justine]

Goals.

[Kate]

Yeah, I agree with that. I feel like family meal time is the most important thing because every single move you make, you're showing your kids what family should be, Right?

[Justine]

Yeah, that's true. It's equally important for everyone, just for different reasons.

[Kate]

All right, so ages 6 to 9 it says that to hear this. Research has shown that spending over one and a half hours watching television will be a risk factor for obesity.

[Justine]

I don't have to worry about obesity.

[Kate]

Not yet.

[Justine]

Not yet. That is true.

[Kate]

And because it doesn't mean at this moment, it's a risk factor in general.

[Justine]

Oh, like for future. Okay, got it.

[Kate]

And that YouTube channels popular children are more likely to feature foods that are less nutritious. We talked about that.

[Justine]

That's what we said before inked it out.

[Kate]

Interactive and engaged co viewing with parents and peers can offer opportunities for relationship building and learning.

[Justine]

Like movie night.

[Kate]

Like we said before, everything I watch my kids, I talk to them about. I'm like, what's that? That's an otter. What do otters do? Gage. What is this? Like, I did that all day today because we had to watch tv. I was like, if we're gonna sit

[Justine]

here and watch tv, we're actually going to interact. We're going to learn. Yeah.

[Kate]

It says overall personal phone ownership in still uncommon for this age group. About by the age 9, 32% of children have their own phones.

[Justine]

I think that percentage is higher. I think it is that an older.

[Kate]

No, this is from this year. But I think it does depend on where you live.

[Justine]

That's true.

[Kate]

Like, New York probably has a higher percentage of phones that like Texas.

[Justine]

No, not Texas.

[Kate]

Texas is a big city.

[Justine]

Like. Like middle America.

[Kate]

Like, I don't know. This is across America. Okay. It's not just here. Okay. And it says that research suggests that those who start using platforms like Snapchat and Instagram before age 10 were more likely to have problematic digital behaviors than those who started in their tweens or teens.

[Justine]

Yep.

[Kate]

Any opinions on that, Justin?

[Justine]

I mean, so we would be talking about Lincoln's age group, which I said before I made him delete most of his apps.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Justine]

We'll see if he comes back from his dad's house with them redownloaded.

[Kate]

But it just says that screens should be used in moderation with purpose and imbalance with time spelled on non screen activities, like physical activity.

[Justine]

Yeah.

[Kate]

So, you know, the most important thing is that they're moving just as much as they're on their phone.

[Justine]

Yeah. But I did see a TikTok the other day where this kid that was overweight his dad for, like, if he wanted to go on Xbox for an hour, he literally would have to walk on the treadmill for an hour.

[Kate]

Well, you were trying to do something like that with your kids for a while.

[Justine]

Yeah, well, I was doing like you'd have to look your body for 40 minutes. But now I have it.

[Kate]

As I remember that Benny would be on this stepper thing, being like, I'm moving mom.

[Justine]

No, he was doing the Danny Go episodes for a while.

[Kate]

Does this count? I was like, oh my God.

[Justine]

Yeah. Now I gave them the option where it's 40 minutes. They either have to get fresh air, move their bodies, exercise, or read. They have one of the options in case it's like a shitty day or they're just not feeling like they want to do 20 push ups. Like, then they at least have the option to read. But it has to be something that is not involved with a screen.

[Kate]

Yeah. So anything older. So from tweens 10 to 12, it says that by age 12, 71% of children own their own phone. Most social media platform, it's still pretty uncommon for up to 12. You said yes.

[Justine]

Okay.

[Kate]

It says that research shows that tweens who get like less likes on social media report more negative emotions.

[Justine]

Well, that's a whole nother topic that social media and, and your self esteem.

[Kate]

That's goes hand in hand.

[Justine]

That goes hand in hand.

[Kate]

Every single age group.

[Justine]

Every single age group. And like it's getting worse.

[Kate]

It's definitely getting worse.

[Justine]

Getting worse and worse.

[Kate]

It does say that playing video games to hang out is not the worst thing.

[Justine]

Okay.

[Kate]

Because as long as they're still interacting with kids of their own age.

[Justine]

Yeah.

[Kate]

Like they're creating friendships and like this is how guys hang out.

[Justine]

Now there's social interaction.

[Kate]

Yeah. A lot of this for like tweens. I hate the word tweens. So I keep putting in quotations because it's a lot of just like model your behavior. You know, it says that they only hear 1% of what you see and see 100% of what you do. So you know, if you're on your phone, they're gonna be on your phone. Yeah, it's a lot of that. You know, why can you do it but I can't?

[Justine]

Which we kind of touched on the last couple episodes when we're talking about discipline. Like, it feels very punishment to be like, well, I can do it, you can't. Right. So with, I mean, this is off the topic of screens, but like with cursing, like Lincoln's been just dropping f bombs everywhere.

[Kate]

Has he?

[Justine]

Yeah, the mouth on that kid is wild, but my mouth is wild.

[Kate]

Well, we still have the teen area.

[Justine]

Oh, yeah, go ahead.

[Kate]

It says that preschool age children spend an average of 2 1/2 hours per day on screens. But it Can. Are you ready?

[Justine]

Oh, God.

[Kate]

In comparison to teens that spend an average of 8 hours and 39 minutes on screens a day, not including time spent for school, imagine having an extra eight hours that you're just on your phone.

[Justine]

You know what drives me crazy is where did the world go wrong?

[Kate]

I can tell you that

[Justine]

everything that these kids do now in school is

[Kate]

on a. Oh, I hate that. Honestly, I really hate it. And they get it way too early.

[Justine]

They're like, here we are as a. As a unit. Most. Mostly as a unit, as most parents are trying to keep our kids away from screens. And then the school is throwing them in front of a screen all day long. They don't take notes. They don't do their math homework where they have to show their work and all this stuff. And Lincoln said to me the other day, mom, I can't do the work on the Chromebook. And I was like, so I'm going to write a note to your teacher, write just the answer on the Chromebook, and then take a scrap paper and do all your work and number it for. So that she could match the work with each problem. And I said, if your teacher gives you a hard time, tell her to call me. Yeah, because we should not be forcing our children to read to. To literally do anything, even just the Kindles.

[Kate]

Well, you figure that these kids should all be wearing blue light glasses, right? Like, should they hand those out with glasses?

[Justine]

They should be wearing those fucking face shields.

[Kate]

They should just be wearing welding helmets at all times.

[Justine]

It's so bad for them.

[Kate]

It's so bad for them.

[Justine]

So bad for their eyes. It's not good for them mentally.

[Kate]

But also, like we said before, the sheer aspect that they have to touch a tablet or a Chromebook or whatever to do their homework, they're more likely to press every other app on that book because it's already in their hand. Right? Like, if they're doing research on their phone, they're more likely to look at social media or answer text messages or do things because it's already in their hand.

[Justine]

Yeah.

[Kate]

If they had to write or read a book or go to the library, I know they wouldn't have so many distractions that they have now.

[Justine]

That's. And this, like, goes into a whole nother level of things. But, like, this is why so many, like, look up how many kids are getting diagnosed with ADD and are so

[Kate]

distracted and especially ADHD and stuff like

[Justine]

that, because they literally. Kids have the percentage of time that kids can focus.

[Kate]

Honestly, I am falling down a hole About AI right now. Like artificial intelligence with teenagers. And it's stressing me the hell out.

[Justine]

Why?

[Kate]

Well, because, like, obviously we know about Chat GPT, right?

[Justine]

Yeah. And how it's teens writing their entire

[Kate]

papers and stuff like that and how they like teens. You know, everyone's like, that's fine. But, like, I don't think it's fine because you're not learning anything.

[Justine]

Yeah.

[Kate]

And I mean, if I was in college and that was an option, you would have used it. I probably would have used it. I mean, I was in college. I had to write all my own papers.

[Justine]

That shit was annoying, rough. Okay.

[Kate]

I don't know how I did it, but now they're saying that I. AI is. There's a growing concern over the ability to create AI generated sexual images of people. Jesus. So kids are now not only worried about sexting and their pictures getting around, but by people creating fake images of other kids and spreading the red school.

[Justine]

Oh, my God. Like, making nudes, like, without them even having.

[Kate]

AI is making nudes. Like, kids are creating nudes for other kids as a joke and then spreading the brand.

[Justine]

School. Jesus.

[Kate]

So, like, not only could you get in trouble for setting a nude that wasn't even your nude.

[Justine]

Wow.

[Kate]

That's fucking insane.

[Justine]

That's scary.

[Kate]

It's terrifying. These news can prevent you from getting jobs and stuff later on in life.

[Justine]

Yeah.

[Kate]

Things come out, which I think is obnoxious, but whatever. That's a different topic. Yeah, but imagine someone's like, oh, you can't be hired because there's nudes of you going around and you're like, that's not even my body.

[Justine]

They're not your. Do you wanna see me naked? That's not me.

[Kate]

It's missing a mole. Like, I have an outie. And that is an ittie. But honestly, that's My titties don't look like that. My titties ain't that big. They're flatter. I don't know. But that's something I didn't even think about.

[Justine]

Yeah, that's.

[Kate]

Is that these jokes that could have, like, major ramifications.

[Justine]

Jeez.

[Kate]

It's like, where is the line drawn that you're spreading child pornography if it's not an actual. Yeah, an actual child.

[Justine]

Right. So, like, that could raise so many issues and concerns.

[Kate]

It's already raising so many in my brain right now.

[Justine]

Yeah. That's scary to think of. Really is terrifying.

[Kate]

Anyway, this is Boston Children's Digital Wellness Lab. There's so much more to explore.

[Justine]

If anyone is interested we will link it in the. It's so interesting in the about episode for sure. That was very informative.

[Kate]

So there's like a lot of questions on here that you've kind of already answered.

[Justine]

Mm.

[Kate]

But do you want to go through

[Justine]

them a little bit? Yeah, yeah, go on.

[Kate]

Because it's basically like why you got your kids phones and what you want to be doing different with Date Me.

[Justine]

Okay, so why I got my kids phones?

[Kate]

Well, because, like, so now that we have like, I almost fell backwards. Please get that on video. Just me just slow falling. So basically, now that we have some like, actual research and recommendations about technology,

[Justine]

what do I want? What do we want to put into play?

[Kate]

What do we want to put into play? Or also, like, you know, you had to do some things with your older boys and Aiden and like, what you're gonna do different with the Demi if you can.

[Justine]

Yeah, I mean, I already know, like, just listening to all that. I'm like rattling things off on a daily basis. Like, I want to limit it down to maybe

[Kate]

I try to do like,

[Justine]

I would say two hours, because that's not even an hour is not even one movie.

[Kate]

Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. I usually do like one movie. We don't watch TV or any technology. In the morning, Axel usually takes a nap and then he wakes up and sometimes we do a couple Danny Go dances. Because at least I feel like he's moving.

[Justine]

He's moving his body.

[Kate]

And it's only if it's raining and we can't go outside, you know?

[Justine]

Yeah.

[Kate]

He wakes up, we'll do a couple dances and then when Gage gets home from school, we watch one movie and then it's bath time, bedtime, stuff like that.

[Justine]

When you first told me that you don't do any screens in the morning, I. I've been making a solid effort to do that. Life happens. Like, I can't be perfect all the time.

[Kate]

One size fits all, every day.

[Justine]

No, it's not. But for the most part, I would like to. He takes a nap at 12. If I could get to 12 every day with me off of my phone and him not watching screens. And that's key.

[Kate]

That's what I need to do. I need to put my phone in a box.

[Justine]

Yeah. Like, there is no work before 12 o'. Clock. No.

[Kate]

And I need to turn the volume on because I feel like I constantly look at my phone just to see if anyone texted me or to see if anyone.

[Justine]

Yeah.

[Kate]

So I'm like, if I put the volume on and Then.

[Justine]

Or you know what you could do is you could literally put like your, you could make your favorites and like say like you have your mom and Tony, that it'll only my mother just like make a sound when they text you.

[Kate]

That's what I need to do.

[Justine]

Yeah, that's what I need because I live in.

[Kate]

Tony works in the city. He drives to work every day. I'm always like, oh my God, what's happening? Yeah, you know, you never know what's happening ever.

[Justine]

No, you need to be in contact.

[Kate]

I need to be able to be in contact with my husband. I need to be able to be contact with my mom and my mother in law. Yeah. If something happens, God forbid.

[Justine]

Yeah.

[Kate]

But other than that, I don't need the random texts.

[Justine]

No, not before 12 o'. Clock.

[Kate]

No.

[Justine]

And then I have for the most part, if I don't plan anything in the morning, I mean in the afternoon I have from like 12 to 2:30ish, while he's napping to do work.

[Kate]

Yeah, that's good.

[Justine]

But like lately I've been falling asleep with him just because we're exhausted. I'm exhausted. And he play, he's sitting there playing with my hair. And we listen to a meditation every time we go for a nap and for bedtime. So I'm listening to this super calm meditation and my baby's like twirling my hair. I'm out.

[Kate]

You're out?

[Justine]

I am out. There is nothing keeping me awake, like whatsoever.

[Kate]

Yeah, you're out, you're done.

[Justine]

But sometimes if Max is working or something, I'll be like, don't let me sleep more than an hour so that I'm at least like getting some rest. I know if I fall asleep, it means I need it. So if like I'm getting some rest, but I'm not spending two and a half to three hours where I'm just sleeping and like missing the opportunity to take that time not only for myself, but to work, to straighten up the house and to just get ahead.

[Kate]

I think that's good.

[Justine]

Yeah.

[Kate]

You know, that's a good compromise because I would love to take a nap when Axel takes a nap. I just can't. Yeah, I'm like, I'm so behind on.

[Justine]

I know.

[Kate]

I, I just.

[Justine]

Well, so am I. I have so much anxiety. So do I. But I'm starting to forgive myself when I fall asleep because I hardly ever sleep at night and I've been going to bed at like three, four o' clock in the morning and then I'm waking Up at seven. Yeah, like that's. I'm literally living on four, three to four hours of sleep. So if I fall asleep during that time.

[Kate]

Birth control.

[Justine]

Yeah, literally. But like, you know, if. If my body needs that hour of sleep, I need to take that time and I have to give myself grace and just allow myself to not feel like shit and be like, I have so much to do.

[Kate]

I can't believe I fell asleep. Yeah, I think that's important. So yeah, I think that's a good goal for us both to have though is like no phones until. Yeah, look, I'm gonna try to do no phones till my alarm goes off for gauge to get to school. So that's like 12:15, 12:30.

[Justine]

There's literally no reason for me to be on my phone before then. Like when I think about it.

[Kate]

No, there is none.

[Justine]

There's no reason for me at all whatsoever. And I even posting and making content for my. All my business pages that I don't

[Kate]

have to do that before.

[Justine]

Don't have to do that before 12.

[Kate]

Alright, that's a good call. Okay.

[Justine]

Solid.

[Kate]

Solid.

[Justine]

And then after nap, you know, you want to watch a Disney movie. Fine. You wanna watch some Elmo? Fine. What do you think about YouTube videos of music?

[Kate]

I usually don't put them out. I've been putting on CDs because I just. I used to watch Tiny Desk a lot. I used to watch this.

[Justine]

Yeah, that's what I do.

[Kate]

And if my kids want to like play guitar with a Blake Woody 2 song or whatever, like I'll put that one song on. But I try not to do it because I feel like any screen interaction

[Justine]

they watch, they're like a zombie.

[Kate]

They're less likely to play with their toys. They're less likely to use their imagination if they are seeing something.

[Justine]

Good point.

[Kate]

And they're more likely to kind of reenact what they're watching instead of creating something on their own. I'm a big component of Kids have to be bored.

[Justine]

I was literally just. I meant to say that.

[Kate]

Huge. Like your kids have to be bored. You can't entertain them 24 hours a day.

[Justine]

Right. See now that's something that is extremely different with Benny and Bennie. Lincoln and Damie, obviously I didn't raise Aiden. I only had him at nine. So yeah, it's hard for me to say for that but for Betty and Lincoln it got so lost. I was a young mom. I had nothing else to focus on except for them. I was very interactive and we did a lot together. We were Always going on walks to parks, to hikes to this, to that. It got very lost in the sauce with them being back and forth between my house and their dad's house, which is 50% my fault. Just like, you know, it is what it is. It happened. But now they do not know how to be bored at all. Like, it's to the point where. So part of those rules that I gave them and outlined them for starting this weekend is in order to get their screens, they need to have one loving interaction with each other.

[Kate]

Good luck. And I hate that I said good luck because I'm such a cynic. But, like, I know.

[Justine]

No, I know what you mean. I know what you mean.

[Kate]

So hard.

[Justine]

They literally. They don't know how to interact with each other. When they're at their dad's house, they're in two parts of the house whether they're on Xbox or not. They're usually separated when they're at my house. Usually separated because they're in different rooms now on different Xboxes. And the second that they have to get off their screens, they don't know how to play with each other. They don't know how to be bored. They don't know how, like, Benny will be like, what the fuck am I supposed to do? You know? You know, I mean, like. And I'm like, dude, there's so many things that you can do. So I told them in order to get their screens, they need to have one loving interaction. It doesn't need to be a full hour. It could be 10, 15 minutes. But. But, like, I gave them some options. I said, you guys can walk the dog together, you can play tag, you can build a fort, you could play with Damie together without arguing. Like, they can't even play with a baby without arguing.

[Kate]

And I think that, like, this goes into technology a lot because a lot of people give their kids tablets and stuff because they're afraid of their kids being bored. Yeah.

[Justine]

Because they don't want to deal with kid being fussy or.

[Kate]

Well, also it's like, you know, I don't know what to do with them right now. So here's like a movie I'll put on while I can cook dinner.

[Justine]

Yeah.

[Kate]

And like, I get that because it's less annoying for the parent because, like, it's easier. My kids are good at being bored because I don't give them that. But, like, do they say, mom, come here and look at this. 455,000.

[Justine]

Of course they do.

[Kate]

100%.

[Justine]

Yeah.

[Kate]

Do I have to see this? Car. Do this car trick a million times on repeat.

[Justine]

Are they, are they sitting on your feet like. Yeah.

[Kate]

But the thing is like the less time that you fill your kids, you know, time up with anything, the more, the better they will be at being bored in the long run.

[Justine]

Yeah.

[Kate]

You know, and it's gonna take a lot of time for them to get there.

[Justine]

Well, it's like it gets, it's harder before it gets easier.

[Kate]

It always is harder before it gets easier. Like they'll figure it out. Yeah, they'll learn to like play a board game or build a puzzle or do a LEGO set together. You know, just something.

[Justine]

Oh, they're gonna fucking figure it out.

[Kate]

Oh, I didn't read this before, but it kind of goes with that. It says that tantrums are challenging for parents to manage. But using screens to calm your child, that is, makes it even more difficult in the long run. Research suggests that it's because it takes away the opportunity to learn emotional regulation strategies.

[Justine]

I was gonna say that. Yeah, they don't. They're not learning how to manage their emotions.

[Kate]

And that's the same with being bored, right?

[Justine]

Yeah. Being bored is an emotion.

[Kate]

It's an emotion, right. Or it's like the lack of emotion. They're just like, I'm bored.

[Justine]

Yeah.

[Kate]

But it's like, you know, I'm gonna put this hand in hand. Using a screen to help with a tantrum to calm them down at the moment, or using a screen to help them because they're like, I got nothing to do. It ends up limiting their ability to do anything for themselves. They can't.

[Justine]

It's limiting their independence.

[Kate]

Calm down. They can't learn how to self regulate and they can't learn how to use their imagination to create something out of nothing.

[Justine]

Yeah. I mean I tell my kids all the time, like when we were kids, I feel like our parents used to just throw us outside and lock the door. Be like, go figure it out.

[Kate]

Oh, 100. We were always outside.

[Justine]

Whether you are digging in the dirt or I don't know, playing on the swing set or, you know, I feel like we used to like the swing set used to be our kingdom. And there's just like kids don't have that nowadays. They literally will go play tag at the park for 15 minutes and they're like, okay, I'm done.

[Kate]

Do you check your kids phones?

[Justine]

Yes.

[Kate]

Have you always?

[Justine]

Always have. Now more than ever with Benny. I hope he's not listening to this, but. Sorry, Benny. I sneak it more so with Benny because he's like at that age where he's like, why are you looking at my phone? Or whatever.

[Kate]

I mean, that's hard.

[Justine]

But there's a lot of Max, once in a while, will sneak it with Aiden because I don't think. I don't think Max knows Aiden's password.

[Kate]

Why?

[Justine]

Exactly. So I think that as parents, it is our right and it is our responsibility to ensure their safety.

[Kate]

I just thought of something as soon as she said this.

[Justine]

Go ahead.

[Kate]

No, you keep going and then I'll tell you.

[Justine]

Well, that's pretty much all I was going to say is like, Benny tried to change his password once. And I said, if you're not going to give me your password, then you will not have a phone. And am I look. And I told him, I'm not looking at your phone every day and I'm not reading in depth what you're saying to your friends. But, like, if you have a random number that you're texting, I'm gonna be like, who is this? Like, Benny has met a couple people from Xbox.

[Kate]

Right.

[Justine]

So I tell him all the time, people nowadays can change their voice. And he's like, oh, but we FaceTimed. I'm like, you could literally make a fake person on FaceTime. There's a lot of things that you could do nowadays. You have to be careful. So I tell him, if you meet someone, especially on Xbox, whether it's me or your father, I think that we have the right to look into that person to make sure. I want to hear his voice and say, how old are you and where are you from? I think that's standard for his safety. And I told the both of them, if you meet someone, you make sure you never share your address. You could say, I live in New York. And that's it. That's all they need to know. Make sure you don't say your school.

[Kate]

I think that's especially important for. For girls.

[Justine]

Yes. Because unfortunately.

[Kate]

Unfortunately. I mean, obviously it's almost equally as important for both.

[Justine]

A little bit worse for girls, but

[Kate]

girls, I mean, I've fallen in rabbit holes of being young and talking to random older people on different social media sites when I was a kid. I'm sure, like, every girl in the world has.

[Justine]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Kate]

And it's like, you really have to be very aware of what your kids are doing.

[Justine]

Yeah. So I check Lincoln's phone more often than I check Benny's. He's like in a couple of group chats. And one of them, literally the name of the group chat is 4 4, which is their class and the name of the teacher. And it's like, all the kids from class. Do I go in depth reading that? No, because most of the time they're just like, what's the homework? Someone send me the answers. So then there's one other group chat. So they also create group chats so that they can all get on a FaceTime call at once when they're all playing video games. Some of those I do dissect a little bit more because he's in a group chat with Benny and. And their cousin at their dad's house, who is 14. And I want to make sure that he's not being exposed to, like, yeah, you know, whatever. So that's one thing. So then he has this random group chat, literally called gc. I've looked at it before and, like, it was just a bunch of random kids. Like, there was no. Well, at first I thought it was kids from his class because I saw this girl and then one of his other friends from his class. So I just assumed it was another chat, like, with, like, kids from his class. So I haven't really. Right into it, read into it too much. The other night I was up and couldn't sleep, and it was 3am and someone's phone is ringing. And obviously I'm in an apartment, so if a phone's ringing, you could hear it, but also they should be in your room. This was before all this happened.

[Kate]

So.

[Justine]

But sometimes you can even hear, like, the people upstairs or the people next door's phone from vibrating, but the vibrating was so loud, I was like, whose fucking phone is ringing? So I go into Betty's room, I check his phone. It's not his. I go check Max's phone. It's not Max's. I check my phone, My phone's not ringing. And I go into Lincoln's room, and it's his phone. And I'm like, he's nine. Who is what? Group chat in the morning, it was calling.

[Kate]

Oh, my God.

[Justine]

Wasn't even texting. It was calling. Like, it was repeatedly vibrating. So I look on his phone and it's this group chat. I go to the messages. Long story short, now I'm reading deep into these messages, and Max randomly broke up. So, like, the two of us are reading into this. There's, like, a text. It's this kid saying, vinegar, vinegar, vinegar, vinegar. Like, links to apple cider vinegar. It's like a lot of, like, spam texts of vinegar. But then if you keep scrolling up, one of the messages says, I know no one's awake right now reading these, but just know that I'm watching you. And now I'm like, okay, this is weird.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Justine]

For a nine year old to say that. So now I'm scrolling up, there's text messages from, this was on Tuesday. This was on Monday. No, this was on Tuesday. And from Sunday afternoon there was like a text message, how do you get away with murder? And I've kidnapped three little girls and they're in my basement.

[Kate]

Like, what?

[Justine]

Very bizarre text messages.

[Kate]

And I go, lincoln didn't bring this up to you?

[Justine]

And be like, no. Because so his girlfriend, she came over on Tuesday after school. So I had spoke to her mom about it because she was also in the group chat. And they both were like, this person just spams text messages. Like, I don't read all of them. You could tell no one is responding.

[Kate]

But who is this person?

[Justine]

So we found out who it was. There's another kid in the group chat who Max knows his father, and his father's actually a cop.

[Kate]

Okay.

[Justine]

So even he said, I, I didn't look into the text message because, like, it's just spamming all you see. If you scroll up, all you see is the word vinegar. But then all of a sudden, a random text in between is like, how do you get away with murder?

[Kate]

This is alarming.

[Justine]

So the, the cop said, let me try to figure out what kid it is and maybe I'll contact the parents. We couldn't find out who the parents were. So Max went to the school and brought it to the school's attention. They basically didn't make a big deal out of it because they said it's not a direct threat to the school, which I get. But they said that they were going to look into it and reach out to the parents. But this is just like an example of things can go missed.

[Kate]

Things can go missed.

[Justine]

Clearly there's something wrong with this child.

[Kate]

Clearly something's happening.

[Justine]

Is there something going on at home or is there something going on at school?

[Kate]

School.

[Justine]

We need to take responsibility for all areas.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[Justine]

Whether it's at school, at home, if they're playing sports. There's so many layers and so many interactions on a daily basis that our kids have that we need to be checking up on everything. And when they get to a certain age, it shouldn't feel like we are like, what do they call them? Helicopter parents. Like, you don't want to be a helicopter parent and be hovering over them constantly, but you should know their password. You know, wait until they're sleeping, pick up their phone, go through it just for their safety.

[Kate]

I feel like that helicopter parenting term has given. Has really put a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths. Like there's a difference between I'm a helicopter parent and I'm invested in my kids well being.

[Justine]

Yeah.

[Kate]

I want to make sure that they're going to be healthy and safe and that I can be as preventative as possible for any wrongdoing or harm that could happen to my child or from my child.

[Justine]

Yeah. We just had a low key panic attack.

[Kate]

Actually, it wasn't low key at all. It was a high key.

[Justine]

It was very high key. Okay, let's just wrap this up. The verdict is that screens suck.

[Kate]

Verdict is screen suck. And that I just got a text that says this kid is not going to be happy until the house is fully destroyed. He said, axel is on a warpath.

[Justine]

She's wild.

[Kate]

Basically. I think that we both want to do things different than we've done in the past with our kids.

[Justine]

Absolutely.

[Kate]

Because I didn't talk much about the girls that I fostered previously, but like when I had them, I did let them have tablets. I did let them watch TV a lot more. I allowed them to have a lot more technology influence them and I saw the negative impact it had on them.

[Justine]

And you direct reassessed on how you wanted to do it for gauge and

[Kate]

axle and how I wanted to do things this time around.

[Justine]

Yeah.

[Kate]

And I know that people think I'm nuts by doing things this way.

[Justine]

I don't think nuts. I think it's. I think the people that think you're nuts have not been awoken yet.

[Kate]

I think I'm just trying the best I can. And it's been really hard. Like, it's definitely not the easy way out to not have your kids have these things.

[Justine]

I think it's actually the harder way,

[Kate]

but I think for the best being

[Justine]

easier and it ends up being the. The better decision.

[Kate]

I hope so. I really, really, really hope so.

[Justine]

Oh, my mindful of mayhem. I actually wrote them down.

[Kate]

Did you see her right? I did. I swear it.

[Justine]

I'll start with my mindful moment. So I said before that me and Damie listen to a meditation. I use the Open app and it's usually anywhere from like 10 to 15 minutes.

[Kate]

And

[Justine]

we've been doing that for probably about two months now. For every nap and bedtime that I put him down, I put this on and he knows. We lay in bed, we read a book, and then I say, okay, let's listen to our meditation. And he lays down. And now he just. The other day, he started going. Because every single one of them start off with, like, inhale and then exhale and with a sigh, and they go. And so now he. All of a sudden, the other day, he lays down. He goes. And I was like, oh, my go. He's learning.

[Kate]

I love that.

[Justine]

I love it so much. And he does, like, this deep breathing, and it's so freaking cute. I love every second of it.

[Kate]

Just backpacking off your deep breathing. Because I really don't know any mindful moments, because my whole week has been

[Justine]

complete KS fucking mayhem.

[Kate]

But today, when I gage, I have me Gage, like, sit on the stairs sometimes. Not like, time out, just in, like, a you need to kind of regroup thing. And I went and sat with him. Gage has a really hard time controlling his body when he gets really excited. He doesn't realize that jumping on people's stomachs or backs can hurt them. He's just, like, in full. Fred, I love that you're here. I'm so excited to see you. I'm gonna throw myself at you almost like a puppy. He's literally a puppy. He's just an oversized, very small dog who wants to jump on you. And he's doing it out of love and excitement in the purest form. In the purest form. And I'm like, okay, we need to control our bodies. How do we control our bodies? I'm like, let's go sit on the stairs. And we are deep breathing. And Axel, engage. Were deep breathing with me today, too.

[Justine]

I love it.

[Kate]

And Axel kept going directly in my face because he thought it was hilarious.

[Justine]

Hot sticky.

[Kate]

It was just, like, good. I was like, awesome. You're doing such a great job. I feel like I should fully skip my mayhem moment of this week, because, honestly, same. It's been a mayhem. It's been mayhem.

[Justine]

Our entire week was mayhem.

[Kate]

Thanks, Eclipse.

[Justine]

Yeah.

[Kate]

Nice knowing you.

[Justine]

Eclipse come eclipse again.

[Kate]

Was like, if we come again, can we make it better?

[Justine]

Re Eclipse.

[Kate]

We need another one.

[Justine]

We need every year. Re Eclipse.

[Kate]

I don't need this book.

[Justine]

We need to re eclipse the eclipse do over. All right.

[Kate]

All right. Adios.

[Justine]

Adios, amigos. Cool.