How Kindness Became a Billion-Dollar Business Strategy with Daniel Lubetzky

Summary

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Episode Summary: “How Kindness Became a Billion-Dollar Business Strategy with Daniel Lubetzky”

Main Theme

In this engaging episode, Nicole Lapin sits down with Daniel Lubetzky, founder of Kind Snacks, to discuss how kindness and transparency can serve as a powerful business strategy. Daniel shares the journey of building Kind into a multibillion-dollar company, the nuance between being ‘nice’ and being truly ‘kind’, the harrowing private equity buyback story, and his life after Kind—both as an investor and a “Shark Tank” cast member. With tales of resourcefulness, personal anecdotes, and honest advice, Daniel demonstrates the strength—and business value—of authenticity and compassion.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Encounters and Humble Beginnings (04:32 – 11:00)

• Daniel and Nicole reminisce about their first meeting years ago on CNBC, highlighting the authentic roots of Kind Snacks when it was far from today’s mainstream popularity.
• Daniel describes distributing products from the back of his battered car held together with duct tape, representing the humbling “scrappy phase” of entrepreneurship ([09:00]).
• Early brand names for Kind were literal and uninspired (“fruit delicious nuts and world”) until the name “Kind,” inspired by Daniel’s Holocaust-survivor father, emerged:

  “We were inspired by his example. We named the company Kind after him.” – Daniel Lubetzky ([18:53])

• Daniel shares the “Mandela Effect” memory of his car's color, a lighthearted reflection on how even sharp entrepreneurs can misremember the past.

2. The Power (and Business Case) of Kindness (11:00 – 15:22)

• Nicole and Daniel discuss the crucial difference between “nice” and “kind”:

  “The nice thing to do is telling people what they want to hear, but the kind thing to do is telling them the truth, but with kindness.” – Nicole Lapin ([12:36])

• Daniel’s take:

  “You need to be kind, not just nice. The person that is kind is honest, stands up to solve problems, and stands against bullies.” ([13:10])

Workplace Kindness

• Daniel highlights the value of honest feedback in company culture—advocating constructive, “kind” criticism over polite passivity ([15:22]).
• He describes the “sandwich feedback” method: sincere praise, clear constructive feedback, followed by future-positive encouragement ([16:25]).

3. Frugality, Sampling, and Explosive Growth (06:59 – 08:39; 19:09 – 21:47)

• In 2009, Daniel shifted from a frugal to a resourceful culture, exponentially increasing the sampling budget from $800 to $20 million:

  “Every Kind bar paid for itself because people would become part of the family and start telling others about it.” – Daniel Lubetzky ([08:30])

• The company was bootstrapped, with Daniel paying himself a $24K salary for years and taking pride in scavenging office furniture ([21:47]).

4. The PE Buyout Saga: Grit & High Stakes (21:54 – 26:32)

• Daniel narrates his intense experience with a private equity firm that tried to oust him just six months after investing:

  “They tried to force me out of my own company. I couldn’t sleep for many, many days.” – Daniel Lubetzky ([22:15])

• After refusing to relinquish control, Daniel ultimately bought out the PE firm for $227 million (from their initial $16 million investment), assembling bank loans and enduring months of stress.
• Lesson: Align incentives and do thorough reputational checks on your partners ([31:26]):

  “Find the best… look at the integrity of the people and then second, try to align the incentives.” – Daniel Lubetzky ([32:06])

5. Exit Reflections, Mars Partnership, & Letting Go (32:20 – 36:19)

• Daniel describes the emotional complexity of selling Kind to Mars and letting go of his “baby”:

  “For an entrepreneur, it’s very, very hard to see your baby move on… It is part of your identity.” – Daniel Lubetzky ([34:01])

• Shares candidly about cultural differences between entrepreneurs and large companies—expect natural friction in any acquisition ([36:19]).

6. Life and Learning as Investor & “Shark Tank” Star (36:34 – 47:31)

• Daniel finds meaning in mentoring and investing in founders via Camino Partners and “Shark Tank”:

  “[Shark Tank] is teaching young people entrepreneurship… it’s entertaining and educating at the same time.” – Daniel Lubetzky ([36:55])

• Amusing behind-the-scenes of “Shark Tank”: long days, intense competition, and learning deal-making tactics from fellow sharks like Mark Cuban and Kevin O’Leary ([38:33 – 42:23]).
• On closing deals: more than half close, but not all, due to due diligence or entrepreneurs renegotiating terms ([42:30]).
• Lighting round highlights Daniel’s affection and insights on his fellow Sharks—with memorable friendly jabs and admiration ([44:21 – 48:11]):

  “Barbara is, without any doubt… the person that more surprises me at how deeply, authentically kind she is all the time.” – Daniel Lubetzky ([47:31])

7. Heritage, Anti-Semitism, and Family Lessons on Money (50:05 – 56:54)

• Nicole and Daniel discuss Jewish identity and stories of enduring and confronting anti-Semitism, referencing Daniel’s Washington Post op-ed and his grandfather’s legacy ([50:18]).

  “My grandfather always taught us to not be arrogant about money… not to be so arrogant that you think it’s beneath you to pick up the pennies.” – Daniel Lubetzky ([51:33])

• Daniel connects this ethos to business: resourcefulness, humility, and the importance of not wasting—“create billions in value by stretching dollars.”
• He encourages practical money skills like budgeting, limiting subscriptions, and teaching children to make choices rather than indulging in excess ([54:35]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the difference between nice and kind:
  “A person that is nice is polite, but a person that is kind is honest.” – Daniel Lubetzky ([12:48])
• On feedback: “It’s a bigger problem in the workplace that people are too nice rather than that they’re jerks.” – Daniel Lubetzky ([13:10])
• On the burden of ownership:
  “You don’t own properties, properties own you.” – Daniel Lubetzky, quoting Warren Buffett ([57:09])
• On entrepreneurship:
  “The highs are high, and the lows are low, and you’re on this roller coaster… the emotions take you over… But it was survival mode.” – Daniel Lubetzky ([26:34])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [04:32] – Daniel & Nicole reminisce, roots of Kind Snacks
• [08:30] – Scaling sampling, word-of-mouth growth
• [12:36] – Difference between being nice and being kind
• [16:25] – Delivering feedback: sandwich technique
• [21:54] – Private equity: betrayal & buyout
• [26:32] – On entrepreneurial sleeplessness and sacrifice
• [36:34] – Supporting founders, “Shark Tank” insight
• [42:30] – How many “Shark Tank” deals close
• [44:21] – Shark Tank lightning round (most competitive, kindest, best dressed)
• [51:33] – Family lessons on thrift and humility, business impact
• [54:35] – Practical financial parenting: teaching budgeting, limits

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Final Takeaways & Tips (57:09)

• Tip for listeners:
  “Create a real or artificial sense of scarcity so you can make choices always. Even if you can afford it doesn’t mean you should do it… Every decision you make about what you purchase might enslave you more than you realize.” – Daniel Lubetzky ([57:09])
• Overarching message:
  Kindness, resourcefulness, and authentic feedback are not only good business strategies—they’re fundamental for building resilient organizations and a meaningful legacy.

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This episode offers a masterclass in blending values with business acumen, filled with actionable advice, candid memories, and a contagious encouragement to approach business (and life) with honesty—and kindness.

Transcript

[Nicole Lapin]

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[Nicole Lapin]

If you've listened to this show for any amount of time, you know that my favorite form of cardio is negotiation. Whenever someone gives me a price, my first instinct is to try to talk them into a lower one. And you would be amazed how often it works. But I understand that there are people who would rather run five miles than negotiate a bill. If that's you, then you need to know about today's sponsor, Experian. You could save money by letting Experian negotiate the rates on your bills. They'll keep an eye out for new deals and savings opportunities and will negotiate directly with your provider on your behalf. But that's not the only pain point they've solved. If you hate going through your accounts to see what subscriptions are still active, don't worry. Experian can take the pain out of canceling subscriptions by handling it for you. For you. Just keep the ones you want and put money back in your pocket. Over 200 subscriptions are cancelable. Here's the best part. You keep 100% of your savings. Get started with the Experian app now. Results will vary. Not all bills or subscriptions eligible savings not guaranteed Paid membership with connected payment account required. See experian.com for details. Foreign I'm Nicole Lapin, the only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to.

Understand it's time for some Money Rehab. Is kindness an asset or a liability in business? Well, Daniel Lubetzky says it's an asset and he would definitely know. He founded Kind Snacks and built it into a multi billion dollar business while always keeping the namesake top of mind. And as the great poet Rihanna once pointed out, kindness can be mistaken for weakness. But that hasn't been Daniel's story. He's shown a lot of strength while being kind and building his company. For example, during Kind's history, he bought out a PE firm for $220 million in order to maintain his leadership. Today he gives us the behind the scenes of that story and we also talk about the difference between being nice and being kind and how he's supporting other founders through through his firm, Camino Partners and on Shark Tank. I am so excited to say Daniel Lubetzky, welcome to Money Rehab.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

I'm excited to be with you because you and I knew each other way back.

[Nicole Lapin]

Way back.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

We were a young kid like you.

[Nicole Lapin]

Were a young kid. Where did we meet exactly?

[Daniel Lubetzky]

I seem to think it was a dinner. Am I right or wrong?

[Nicole Lapin]

I think it the dinner was after the interview. You came on my early morning show on cnbc. Super, super early, Englewood Cliffs.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

So you're saying you interviewed me and then you invited me to dinner or we just met at the dinner randomly.

[Nicole Lapin]

I think I interviewed you. This is what, 15 years ago at this point?

[Daniel Lubetzky]

15 or 20. You start when I was right after.

[Nicole Lapin]

The financial crisis at CNBC. So 2009, I think we had you on the show. We were pitched kind and I was like, I love kind.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

I do remember when you came over and. And we hit it off.

[Nicole Lapin]

I think your PR pitched us. And at the time, kind wasn't like the cool sexy thing. And I grew up in la, so I went to these small natural food stores which I'm sure you know all of them. There was like Mrs. Gooch's before it was Whole Foods. There was another really small like mom and Pop near Fairfax.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

One store operation for sure. And it was at the shovel thing. It was not a cool thing. Everyone was like this really granola place. And it was real, but it was a one store shackle. A real natural story was not like the CNBC and silly thing that it is now, which is, it's cool, but it's very different.

[Nicole Lapin]

I can't wait to hear what you think about it.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

I like it, I enjoy it. But it's kind of like CNBC in place now. It's not like back then it was like just people win there.

[Nicole Lapin]

Like healthy crunchy granola people.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Now it's like better merchandising today for sure.

[Nicole Lapin]

I just give them my wallet every time I go there, no matter what. It's like crazy. The prices are good. But I saw kind early, early, early a hundred thousand years ago when you're like, I'm sure you know, didn't have mass distribution. I as a consumer. So I loved it. And when we got pitched for the show, I hosted a super, super early morning show on cnbc. I told my producer, I'm like, I'm a big fan. Like, I think this is a great company. This is going to be a big company. I should have invested shares in the company. My God, I should have said come.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Everything started working. 2009 was a very important year for us. It was our. When our growth started going from like this, like this. But the product coincidence maybe. But also what happened that year is we started sampling because I know you, you have a show about money. And I can fast forward if you don't mind what I was doing right. And then I'll tell you what I was doing wrong is that I wasn't wasting money because I had no options. I had no money. But what I was doing wrong is I. I created instead of a resourceful culture, a frugal culture. And so I was not spending any money. And I saw sampling as a cost center. Like, I'm like, we had an $800 budget in 2008. $800 budget for sampling. And it was samples that we gave to the salespeople to give to the buyers, not to mortals that want to just eat the product. And we finally realized that for every Kind bar that we gifted, people would fall in love with it. And we sold within. It was crazy. The roi, like, within weeks, people would buy enough product to justify our free sampling. And they would tell others. It was like word of mouth, it was excitement. People very excited about the product. So we started sampling. We went from an $800 budget to an $800,000 budget in 2009. And things started just growing. And then within a few years, our sampling budget was $20 million. We were giving $20 million in free kind bars. And everyone. Every Kind bar paid for itself because people would become part of the family and start telling others about it. And so.

[Nicole Lapin]

And then you went on CNBC with this lady.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Lovely, smart woman.

[Nicole Lapin]

History. I'm so, so happy to see you. I didn't know if you would even remember me because you came in, you're like, are you?

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Perfectly and very fondly. Except I remember where we first met. But our memories and our minds play so many tricks on us. I had. One of my other things that I have is I had a beaten up car that I brought. I drove it from law school to New York, and I used that car to deliver all of my products from the back of my truck. And because I would park it on the streets, I couldn't afford to park it elsewhere. It would get hit. And the trunk was not working. So I close it with duct tape. So when I wrote a book, do the kind thing, in 2014, I wrote about that car. And I talked about how I was riding my red Cougar and parking it in my friend's fancy house in the Hamptons when I would visit with a duct tape. And the parents were very nice, and he's like, you know, that was very sweet that you mentioned that, but your car wasn't red. I'm like, what? Like, your car was black, you idiot. And I'm like, holy shit. Because my first car. Well, my second. My first car was a Broken Crown Victoria that was $400. But he broke down. And my dad's like, okay, I'm going to help you out. But my first car was a used red Cougar that I used for many years while living in Texas. Then I moved to Stanford to go to law school. I'm there three years with that black car, several years with the car in New York, and then I sell it. And many, many, many, many years go without a car. And for some reason in my mind, I remember the car as being that red card. It's incredible.

[Nicole Lapin]

What, the Nelson Mandela effect.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Yeah. What is that?

[Nicole Lapin]

There's certain things that our mind tells us were true, like the red car that wasn't. And we convince ourselves of that. People see the Monopoly guy with a monocle, but he doesn't have a monocle. And there's certain things.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

He doesn't have a monocle. Freaking me out, woman.

[Nicole Lapin]

But regardless of where we met, I have always felt so fondly of you. We've been in touch over the years on email. Your book came out. My five books came out. Such a loser.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Five books, that's impressive.

[Nicole Lapin]

But I always really just remember how you make people feel, how you've always made me feel. How I know from all the interviews that you've done since. Since our first one back in the day that everybody just thinks you truly are, like, the embodiment of being kind.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

It's a very dangerous thing to live up to, and I don't think it's true. I do think that I aspire for that, and that's good enough. I try to do my best, but I get upset just like everybody else. I make mistakes like everybody else. But I try my very, very best to live the way I would have. My parents would have wanted me to, the way my dad would have wanted me to do it. And my mom's still with us. She wants me to be a joke. No, just joking. But my dad's not with us. I was. Either way, he would have wanted. But I think it's a lot about just striving for that. Because if you strive for that, then you actually. We did a survey at Kind, and it was fascinating that 90% of the team members felt that after joining Kind, they had. They were happier and had become kinder themselves. And it was not something we set out to do. But when you're thinking about making kind of state of mind, and if you become what you live right, you live the experiences, we become a product of our little interaction. So if every day I'm Opening the door for my team members. And I'm looking at people's eyes and I'm trying I'm going to be a very different that if I'm ever, every day, I'm just shutting the door on people. And like you become a product of those tiny interactions.

[Nicole Lapin]

So I think you're doing great. And I think a lot, and I talk about on the show a lot the difference between being nice and being kind. What do you think the difference is? Because the way I think about it is the nice thing to do is telling people what they want to hear, but the kind thing to do is telling them the truth, but with kindness 100%.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

And in the context of life and work, a person that is nice is polite, but a person that is kind is honest. And I'll take the latter a thousand times over the former because you're nice. Sometimes you're nice and you're actually harming a person. Like for example, when you are in a job setting. And literally this happened to me a week ago when one of our team members was not performing and not one, but two people that she interacts with noticed that and were very unhappy and the situation got out of control and they almost wanted to let this person go. And they said, well, have you given that person feedback? And both are really good people, but they didn't have the strength to be kind and provide that person feedback. And I am 100% certain about this, that it's a bigger problem in the workplace that people are too nice rather than that they're jerks. Of course they're jerks, but there are lower number of problems than the people that are too nice. And because they don't want to hurt other people's feelings, cause harm to their colleagues and deprive them of the gift of feedback. So it's very important to be kind, not to be nice. A person that's nice doesn't cause problems, but a person that's kind has to stand up to solve problems. A person that's nice is not a jerk, but a person that's kind stands against jerks. A person that's nice is not a bully, but person that kind stands up against the bully. So kindness requires the strength of being a protagonist, of having agency over your life. You can be nice and be passive and just be polite, but to be kind, you need to be part of it.

[Nicole Lapin]

Yeah, it's easier to be nice. Like, I have a co host who sent me a clip of him on tv and the nice thing to say was, like, you did amazing. Congratulations. It was awesome. You're so good. But the truth was I thought he could use some feedback. And so I. It took extra time to be kind and to give him because that person.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Might not receive that feedback well. And then you're putting yourself out there. So it does take a lot of strength.

[Nicole Lapin]

So how do you think about it in the workplace? So let's say I'm that person that needed feedback. I wasn't performing, I wasn't turning my stuff in on time. And you're the boss because you have to run an organization. At the end of the day, how are you giving me kind feedback?

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Just to be clear, when I was starting, I was messing it up completely. But over years, I realized that creating that kind culture is what made us win. We had the best product. I think in our industry, just like in the finance industry, cash is king queen. Industry product is king queen. But in our industry, product is queen. And we have to, we have to make sure that you have the right product. But if you really want to win, you need to have the right culture. And to have the right culture, you need to have a hearty debate, a comfortable place where people can speak up. One of the biggest dangers today is that people are afraid to speak and that just fosters mediocrity. So you have to be able to create a culture of people, trust each other, to provide feedback. It should be constructive feedback. So the way we taught our team and the way I tried to teach myself is the sandwich technique. You start by giving people some positive affirmation. Never lie, don't ever just throw away something that's not sincere because then they don't trust you.

[Nicole Lapin]

This is the compliment sandwich, the compliments, I would say.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

But start with something that's authentic. Share something that makes something. One thing that you respect in that person that doing well. Remind them that then provide the feedback about where they can do better and explain, frame it as intended to help them. And then you can close with how that's going to help strengthen and make them stronger. That's kind of the fundamental framework for giving people feedback.

[Nicole Lapin]

If you ever considered another name for the company early on, was it always some kind.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

We had the weirdest, silliest names. And when you look back, I have that piece of paper, I need to find it. But it's crazy how we, how lucky we got because all the other numbers were names were very descriptive. It was like healthy snacks, like fruit and joy Fruity night. We had like fruit. Not the lights, the light of the times, like fruit Delicious nuts and world. And they were all very like variations of descriptive, literal fruits and nuts. Reminds me like when my son. You have a young kid but when my son was three or four years old, we bought him a fish and he happened to be orange reddish color. And it's like, what do you want to call him? Like red, like okay. And then he got another fish and what are you going to call him? White. She was white. And then we had a fish that had red dots and white. And he called them. That one's going to be called red white. So that's what that was the level of mastery of our naming. And then that year my dad passed away and it was a very, very tough year. But Sasha Hare, who was my director of marketing at the time and I were playing with a name that could have human adjective that could describe the three pillars of our product which eventually became kind to your body to taste goods into your world. Something that was healthy, tasty and socially responsible. But when we were thinking about it, I had my dad front of mind. And what's interesting about my father is he was in a concentration camp in the Holocaust. He survived the war. He was 15 and a half when he was liberated by American soldiers. And in spite of all of what he went through, he was very, very much. He really was the kindest person you could meet. And he, he found a way to see everything through a positive prism. And so we were inspired by his example. We named the company Kind after him.

[Nicole Lapin]

Better than fruit and nut.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Yes, better than.

[Nicole Lapin]

And, and early on when you were starting, what were you doing for funding? You had an $800 sampling budget. You were completely literally bootstrapped like your car and.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Yeah, well, earlier on it was even worse because I, I finished law school thanks to my parents. They helped me pay for my education. So I, I didn't have much debt and I had a couple a little income because I had run some businesses on the side while in high school and in college and also as a legal associate like probably some. A small amount of money. And I use that to start and my father gave me a hundred thousand dollar loan would help me enormously. And then I got.

[Nicole Lapin]

What year is this?

[Daniel Lubetzky]

This must have been. I started Pieceworks in 93 and so probably 1994, 95. And I was able to repay the loan. I was very, very proud. But the company Peaceworks was going sideways and for 10 years I was barely surviving with the Peaceworks things. I didn't know what I was doing. And it was a concept of using business to bring Israelis, Palestinians, Jordanians, Egyptians and Turks together. And eventually we'd had ventures all over the world where using business to bring people together, to have commerce, shatter stereotypes, cement relationships. That was the concept of peaceworks, using free markets to bring people to work together because they have a vested interest in profiting and succeeding together. But I was doing everything wrong. Nicole. The. The first brand was called Moshe Pupik and Ali Mishmunkins World Famous Gourmet Foods. And I thought it was a genius name that people were going to laugh so much about, but they just were paralyzed. They repeated, they just walked away.

[Nicole Lapin]

So someone who remembers Yiddish so fondly, I appreciate it.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Moshe Pupika is like a, like, character. People joke.

[Nicole Lapin]

That is a belly button.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Belly button. And Ali Mishmum can. In Ali the. The impossible. It was. There was whole story about the characters, and I was so in love with my own stories. But people were like, moving on. That's why eventually we just named it kind. We just formulated. But during the p. Years. Years, we were struggling a lot, and I. I was able to eek out a prophet, but barely. So I had a $24,000 salary for 10 years in a row. And it was very hard. It was hard to make ends meet and to make payroll. It was. I was sweating every month to make payroll, and it made me work those extra hours to sell those extra cases of sundried tomato spread in order to be able to make payroll. So, yeah, it was. It was bootstrapping like crazy in the early years.

[Nicole Lapin]

And then in 2008, can you tell us the story of the PE fund that came in? Because this is so badass, what you did.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

We agreed to sell to them a minority stake, and they were good partners the first several months. And then afterwards they got greedy and they tried to force me out of my own company. I don't know if you know that story. I had kept it to myself. I couldn't talk about that. I felt very, like, traumatized by that. But. But they tried to push me out. Like, after six months, they said, we want you to name one of our investors and partners, the CEO, and you will be a minority shareholder. I'm like, well, that's not the deal I did with you. The deal is, I'm the CEO, I'm the founder, I'm the entrepreneur. I'm going to run it. And you guys are getting a minority stake. And they're like, no, we think that if you run it, it's not going to work out. We want to buy you out. And I said that's not what I bargained with you. And they're like, well, if you don't do that, we're going to take all of our people and take them back. Because they had introduced me to people that I had hired and we're going to, we're going to destroy you and you're going to go out of business. And I was really, really, I couldn't sleep for many, many days. And because you also almost feel like, oh, my God, is this, like, are these people that they introduce me Trojan horses that are going to harm me? And I eventually consulted with a lot of friends and they're like, call their bluff. We'll replace them, we'll buy them out. And I told them that and I told my team and one of them actually carried through and left with them, but everybody else stayed. And the private equity firm also changed their mind and said, you know what, the two other investors are going to leave, but we, do you mind if we buy their stake? And I made the mistake of saying, fine. I should have known that, you know, when people act that way, I should have just bought them out. But at that time, I felt so intimidated by the whole thing. I'm like, I just want stability. So we, we agreed to keep them on board. They bought their other partner shares and then four and a half years later, they wanted to sell the company. I had made the mistake to have a clause in giving them the right to shop the company around the year five. And so I, I thought five years before that any, if, if any entrepreneur is like, here, where there's so many cameras. This is a really cool studio.

[Nicole Lapin]

Thank you.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

But if any entrepreneur is listening, try to keep your options open because you never know what you're going to want to do four or five years from now. And I had agreed that we would sell the company or shop around the company. Five years and I changed my mind. I, I had climbed that little hill and I saw higher mountain and I wanted to keep going. And they're like, no, we want to shop around the company. Like, no, I want to keep running it. So we agreed that I would buy them out, but it was very hard and they drove very, very, very hard. They got 17x in the course of four years plus dividends because we had, we were cash flow positive, we were making money every year. So they got a crazy return within four years. 17x plus dividends, so maybe more. And we bought them, bought them out. But it was hard because it, they had put in like $16 million. I needed to find $227 million to buy them back.

[Nicole Lapin]

How did you do it?

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Bank loans. And, and it was a calculated risk because I had a lot of information about the company's well being, so did my investors, but they had a fund and they wanted to get out because they had a five year time frame and they wanted to put a win in their board. There's very often misalignment between funds and investor and entrepreneurs because the entrepreneur might want to continue growing, but the fund wants to give, you know, wants to bring their success to be a reality. And they have five year timetables to be able to create value for themselves, get their fees and then raise more money. And so they want. The way they make money is by raising more money. And that was not my incentive. So we, we had enough intelligence to get a sense that there was a potential to, for things to turn out right. And fortunately they did. But there was a six month, two year period when I was sweating a lot. I think the theme is that I'm sweating. But, but it was a, it was a, it was a very tricky period. The other thing, Nicole, is that when I met you, I wasn't sleeping. I.

[Nicole Lapin]

Neither was I, by the way. I was doing this.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

You look for pictures of me in, in that era, I look like a raccoon or like a phantom because I was sleeping four to six hours a day. And today I have the benefit of like, I finally conquered insomnia. And I think I'm a genius because I finally have to find 44 years of insomnia. I sleep seven hours, eight hours a day, and I feel amazing. But it's also a luxury because I didn't have that back then. Back then, A, I had to work 16, 18 hours a day to just make things work. But B, when you're an entrepreneur, the highs are high and the lows are low and you're on this roller coaster and the emotions take you over. So during those episodes, you're not sleeping, you are. And I don't know if I had developed the skills that I developed now to sleep, I don't know if I would have had them because back then it was a little bit more of survival mode, of course.

[Nicole Lapin]

So I would ask you the key to sleeping or to cure insomnia, but I am assuming it's correlated with also exiting the company.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

So. So the one that I cannot perfectly answer for is all those things. I do think that it's too easy for me to say that I developed it and that that's great because if you have Those worries. I do think it's gonna make it harder for you to get quality. But there are things you can do. The most important intervention far and away is go to sleep at the same time and wake up at the same time. It is insane how powerful it is. And for many years I told myself that that was not me. That my wife goes to sleep at 10:30, wakes up at 6:30 every day. And I looked at her and I'm like, that's not me. That's just not my personality. I'm too creative. Bullshit. If you, if you train yourself, your body eventually learns. It just takes a while. You have to be patient with yourself. You have to. It doesn't happen the first day you do it. It might be weeks. But if you keep going to sleep at the same time and giving yourself some time and waking up at the same time, eventually your body learns and it is amazing. And there's. I actually did a video. If you go to my Instagram on the top 10, it's in my opinion is one of the more important videos that I've done. And it has only gotten like 10,000 views, which I think is regretful because it's.

[Nicole Lapin]

Let's boost it, let's go. But also, Daniel, let's be real. Like part of it was exiting your company.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Honestly, I cannot be 100 certain that if I had done the 10 things that I'm encouraging people to do now, they would have worked. When I was like, if you lose an account, right. If you have all of your net worth and kind and all of a sudden one of your key accounts kicks you out and introduces a copycat.

[Nicole Lapin]

Yeah. You're not putting your mask on and being like, night, night.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

It's it. It is. There should be the humility to accept that entrepreneurs don't have the luxury to only to try to sleep eight hours. I didn't have the time to answer. Like, one of the things that I used to do is I used to stay up till I finish catching up with my inbox.

[Nicole Lapin]

Your inbox zero.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Not today. But back then I never was in box zero. But if it was a unread, I got through every night. But sometimes I would stay up 11pm 12 midnight, 1 2, 3, 4, 4am in the morning, just bringing. Going to inbox zero. I didn't know that was a term. But. But that took a. Took a toll. And the problem is that when you go to sleep at different times, your body doesn't get good quality. It's not just that you get less hours. It's also that the quality of sleep goes up.

[Nicole Lapin]

Totally. I was a disaster. I mean, I went to work at 1:30 in the morning.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Leave that for a second. Because you like you. I don't know. I. We can compare pictures. I look like a rat. Look exactly like a Phantom of the Opera raccoon.

[Nicole Lapin]

What would you tell entrepreneurs about private equity deals? Because you hear so many disasters.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

I think the most important thing is neither, you know, now that I'm an investor. I also, I always thought that the entrepreneurs are the good guys and the investors are the bad guys. And the truth is more complex. Everybody's driven by their own narratives of who they are and everybody's a human being. But the more decisions that everybody makes, everybody rationalizes to be consistent with their decision. So you need to look at the body of work, look at the person in totality and look at their reputations and understand who you're getting in bed with because odds are that. And by the way, Kind hit it out of the park. My problems with my private equity partners happen in spite of the fact that Kind was their best performing company and they still did those things. And after they got the biggest return in history within three months, they had invested in three competitors and given them our playbook. It was really annoying, but that's a.

[Nicole Lapin]

Very kind way to say what you really think about it.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

No, but there were things that I learned from them. I also, to be honest, there were things that I learned from my partners that I, that helped me get to where I got. So it's a complex reality. But, but the truth is that for the most part product companies are doing this for a reason, which is a market reason to make money. And you need to really understand what their motivations are. I think the most important thing is align incentives. Find the best first look at the integrity of the people and then second try to align the incentives. And then you have a better chance that things will go well if you find people that are good people and the incentives are aligned so that as they grow, you grow. Very oftentimes the, the incentives that are negotiated are misaligned and that, and that creates a lot of problems.

[Nicole Lapin]

When did you decide to get out completely? Because you're, you're out financially, not emotionally.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Last December, I sold my final stake in in Kind. And, but it's not, it was not something I decided last December. The, the, this, it started in 2017 or late 2016, early 2017, when we brought our strategic investor to invest in Kind and they wanted to eventually acquire Kind and I decided at that point that it was worth doing it. And that's, you know, it's a tough, tough, tough decision for an entrepreneur to do.

[Nicole Lapin]

Do you feel like it was your baby? A lot of entrepreneurs talk about their baby like they personify.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Still, it is, it's. First of all, the company that acquired Kind Mars has done a good job at preserving the kind promise, meaning the ingredients are the same, the product is the same, and I'm very appreciative of that. Still, for an entrepreneur, it's very, very hard to see your baby move on. And it's very easy to feel like a gigantic behemoth is not guiding your baby the way you want it to be guided and taking it in the right direction and making it the center piece of everything you do. So it's particularly when you're the founder and entrepreneur. I started the company from the windowless basement of my building. There was a trash compactor across from the window from the office, and there was nowhere to escape that trash compactor's fumes. Because it was a windowless basement.

[Nicole Lapin]

Sometimes you want to jump in there.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

I'm sure, you know, it was, it was a journey where I was a one person operation, then two people, then four people, then eight people, then two people. You know, you lose everybody. It was a very long journey. And then all of a sudden, turbo growth and 500 people and, you know, incredible multibillion dollar sales. And being part of every, every path is just an incredible growth experience. You grow and you learn so much and it is part of your identity. Like handing out kind bars.

[Nicole Lapin]

You brought some today.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

I still, by the way, I don't have a stake in the company anymore. But one of the things that I agreed on with my former partners was that I would get some kind rush because I like gifting kind bars. So I have a budget of kindness for a few more years because that was important of to who I am.

[Nicole Lapin]

You've done it for so long.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Yeah.

[Nicole Lapin]

I mean, it's a hard habit to break.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Yeah. And also, people expect also.

[Nicole Lapin]

Yes. Really? Before you came, I was like, I'm so hungry, but I know he's gonna bring me a bar. So we're good. What is it like doing business with Mars? Notoriously, they're so opaque and secretive.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

The cultures, they're good people. They're, they're. I think they have integrity and good intentions. The culture of an entrepreneur and of a large company are very different. To your point, a large company tends to be a lot more cautious, a lot more secretive. A large company tends to be more defensive and an entrepreneur tends to just want to pounce on all the opportunities and be more transparent and be more assertive. So the cultures, we're different and that's, that's a, that's a tension that almost no entrepreneur can overcome. Meaning every single time that a friend of mine has been in this situation, we all think that we can suspend the forces of gravity and that we are going to be the ones that do it differently. And the reality is that as a large company acquires a small company and kind was a 7 billion dollar company, but compared to other companies, it's not. I'm trying to be respectful of confidentiality. That's what their size is. But they're much, much, much.

[Nicole Lapin]

I'm surprised that you're saying this much. So I appreciate it.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

But, but the, anytime that an entrepreneur does a partnership with a large company, they need to expect that it's going to be, there's going to be a natural friction between the different cultures.

[Nicole Lapin]

I know it's, every entrepreneur is like this time will be different and you know, it's a similar playbook. But it's so cool to see you now on the other side of it. It's so cool to see you on Shark Tank. It's so cool to see what you're doing with Camino Partners. How do you think about supporting founders now on the other side of the equation?

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Well, it gives me a lot of energy and meanings. First of all, Shark Tank, what it does is it's teaching young people entrepreneurship and is one of those rare shows that both it's entertaining and educating at the same time. It's very engaging and the format is really fun. But you're learning how to build companies, you're learning about entrepreneurship. And then Camino Partners is a platform where some of the most extraordinary people that I was blessed to work with are now leading the way. And they. We only get to invest in a couple companies a year, but we're trying to help them fulfill their potential and try to, to fulfill their dreams. And it's really fun, particularly when you find an entrepreneur that wants to learn, that wants to listen and they take your feedback and they do something good with it. It's so fulfilling and so meaningful.

[Nicole Lapin]

How did Shark Tank happen?

[Daniel Lubetzky]

I don't know a hundred percent. But I think Barry Posnick, which is, who's one of the producers, saw an article about me and shared it with a fellow executive producers and then they invited me for a conversation and I loved the show. I was a late Adopter to the show. I didn't know that it existed it once I was. I remember my first time I saw Shark Tank because I was on a plane and somebody. I'm the type of person that if something looks interesting, I'm that annoying person that asks are you watching? I'm sorry. I'm very friendly. And earlier today I was on a board call and there was a baby and this lady walking and I said hi to the. That's just my personality.

[Nicole Lapin]

Can't wait to bring the baby at the end of this.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

But where was. So I was on the plane and I saw in a screen this weird format because people are sitting down and they're talking. I'm like what the hell type of format is that? It's not a. It's not a scripted show. What the hell is it? So I asked somebody and they told me what it is and I watched it and the entire was a long flight and I watched many episodes and I fell in love with it and I would play it to my kids to watch it. I would pause and teach them and ask them what do you think? Would you do? It's a fun show to pause with you. Well, the kids maybe don't like now when I pause but back then they were little, they would, they would indulge me and then when they called me, I'm like yeah, I would love to do it. And then they, they do like a little screen where they. There was like four different interviews and eventually they invite you and.

[Nicole Lapin]

And you crushed it as usual. What's been your favorite moment or founder or pitch that you've had on the show?

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Oh, it's so hard to answer it that way because.

[Nicole Lapin]

Or memorable.

So like good or bad?

[Daniel Lubetzky]

I'll give you one quickly but just you understand the way it works is you show up at 6:45am in the morning and you finish at 8pm and you're back to. Back to back recording eight to 10 episodes, eight to 10 segments and then the next day again the next day. So it's. It is hard to to. But let's say in this last season there was a really fun situation with these two crazy guys from Google. They work at Google and they came up with this. They saw the problem. What I love about Chuckman is the entrepreneurs come up with really creative solutions and they're surfers themselves and nobody wants to wear helmets because they look so nerdy. So they came up a way to make helmets cool and they come up with like a fun way to wear a helmet and it was so clever. And I wanted to the deal, but I think they had three sharks vying for it. And the other sharks actually had a better deal than me and they went for mine. And, you know, we all have a little bit of a complaint, competitive ego. I was like, yes. And I think Barbara got upset at them. Like, why did you not even consider my offer when my offer was better? Why didn't you respond? And they said, because we know Daniel had done a deal with Tandem Surf, which was a company that's also in water sports. And so we thought that he has synergies. And Barbara said, it's a great answer. No problem. I actually get it. And so. But it was like all the dynamics that go into Shark Tank were. It's very real. Like, what's cool about the show is that we as a, as a sharks don't know who's going to present. We don't have any information. So we need to solve the puzzle on the go. When you know every segment films, when it's edited eight to 11 minutes, but we don't get that much more. It's UNEDITED, might be 30 to 45 minutes, rarely an hour. But within 30 to 45 minutes, you need to decide if you want to invest, negotiate and develop the strategy to how you're gonna win over the other sharks. And that part I'm not that good at because I'm very transparent. And then the sharks see, oh, he wants the food deal. I want the food deal too. So what Mark was really good at doing, which I need to start learning from, is like, who just stand back and wait and wait and then he'd pounce last minute. And sometimes Kevin did that to me. Like in my first show, my first segment, I think I was like negotiating and negotiating and negotiating. And Kevin also just undercough is like, I do that. Did that. Like, wait, what happened? So it's, it's funny. And when you record Shark Tank for a few days after you're like driving, you're. Oh, I should have said this because there's so much going on at the moment.

[Nicole Lapin]

How many deals really go through. Because I know there's a period of due diligence. You only get a few minutes and you have to like verify everything per season.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

But I try to have more than 50% of them close. Sometimes I get 60, 75% close. My war season, it was like 30%. But also, it's not your side of it, right? Like if I. If an entrepreneur retrace and they want to change the Terms of the deal. Then I walk away and so. But I would hope to that it's more than half close.

[Nicole Lapin]

Do you. I know you're so good at budgeting. You're like frugal mindset even to today. Do you have a sense of how much you want to invest going in well or how do you think Shark Tank versus your private season that I.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Was on and my kids and my wife makes so much fun of me about this. I didn't know what I was doing. So I like this hammock company and I offered a million dollars and my wife made me sleep outside that night and there was no hammock. But actually that hammock company, Yellow Leaf is doing really well now and they selling tens of millions of dollars. And so it turned out to be a good investment. But I was of the mind that like my most precious asset is my time. And so if I'm going to invest and I'm going to give my time, I need to get a big piece of the company and I need to invest big amounts. And it's kind of like when you play poker. The real good players, they just play the long game. The other sharks, they know to be patient and not to put everything on one hand. So I learned that in the latter seasons. But I don't. I don't have an amount that I want to deploy. I probably should. I should have consulted with you, but I just go with what I see. See on the. On the particular.

[Nicole Lapin]

Well we've had. Kevin was just here.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Kevin was on with you.

[Nicole Lapin]

We would love to do which we've done with the other sharks that have been on the show. A little lightning round.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Sure.

[Nicole Lapin]

If you don't mind. Which shark would you want to be trapped on a desert island with?

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Probably Damon because he's the only person that I knew before shark tanning. He's like a dear, dear friend of mine. So angel. But you don't need to procreate, right? Or do. Is that. Is it a deserted item that requires procreation?

[Nicole Lapin]

No.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

No. Okay, I'll take Damon.

[Nicole Lapin]

Which shark would you start a business with?

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Honestly, any of them. I love him, but I think probably Mark. That guy is first of all, he's so ridiculously bright. He processes so fast. He has so much integrity. Like he's worried is his bond. I think he would elevate my game. Like he. He stretches me, he challenges me. But I would, I would partner with any of the sharks.

[Nicole Lapin]

Which shark is the best dressed?

[Daniel Lubetzky]

I used to say Damon, but I think Robert, he Is so spiffy, I think.

[Nicole Lapin]

Robert, have you hired a stylist?

[Daniel Lubetzky]

I haven't hired a stylist, but as you can tell, I don't know how to dress, and I don't know if you can tell. This morning, I thought this was black and black, and then I. The light showed up and, oh, this is blue and looks horrible.

[Nicole Lapin]

Oh, I think that's in now Navy. Well, then I wouldn't know.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

But Artemis, who's the wardrobe consultant on the show, is my godsend because she teaches me what to do, and then I borrow whatever she taught me for that season, for that year, and then the next year, she teaches me what's new. Because what I don't like about you stylish people is that you change the rules every year. So if I start wearing this, and then the next year is like, these. The shoes or these or whatever. So Artemis is my secret weapon.

[Nicole Lapin]

Which Shark is the most competitive?

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Everybody's very competitive. That's what's interesting at the show. And it really brings out that competitive. Like, you do not want to lose a deal, and then afterwards, you reset. But when somebody wins a deal over you or where you don't want to partner with them, whatever. All of us have our egos, and it really does. I think every. Everyone is very combating. Mark is probably with me, was the most competitive because he admired me a lot, but he also regretted that he lost some food deals to me because Mark almost never lost deals, and he. You could tell that he does not. And he teased me sometimes. He. He would do some deals. What. What I like about Mark is sometimes he would do the deals. If he felt that the entrepreneur was not getting the right deal, he jump in. And I think Mark is the most competitive, but every one of us is.

[Nicole Lapin]

Shark makes you laugh the most.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

They all make me laugh. Oh, Kevin. Kevin. I laugh out loud with some of his stuff. Kevin. He's very funny, and I know some people think he's mean. He's more funny than mean. And also, we're speaking early about telling it like it is. The gift of feedback is very valuable. So I like that. I don't like that sometimes he's such a tough cab, but he's so funny. He's really. He's very witty. He's very fast.

[Nicole Lapin]

Who's the kindest shark?

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Kindest shark. Not counting me. I think Robert's a real gentle soul. I think Laurie is the nicest and the most nurturing. But Barbara is, without any doubt, of all of us in that panel, the person that more surprises me at how deeply, authentically kind she is all the time. Like, she blows me away every time I see how she behaves towards everybody. But every. Every shark, I think is a kind shark. Even Kevin, who has a reputation for being a cabron. He's.

[Nicole Lapin]

Which means. I guess we can guess.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

What's interesting about Spanish is that there's a lot of words in Spanish that are bad words, but in Mexico, the bad words are sometimes good bad words. So cabron means like a mofo jerk, but in a loving way. It's very hard to explain, but cabroncito is a devilish, mischievous. So that's kind of. That's when a cabron. Do you want me to resay it without the word no?

[Nicole Lapin]

I like it. No, I agree. Barbara, I met her actually, in the. For the first time when she came on the show, and it was one of those examples where she debunked the idea of never meet your heroes. Like, she was so wonderful and kind.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Barbara is really. And she really wants to help others. But every. Every one of the sharks, in my experience is someone that I would want to be my friend.

[Nicole Lapin]

So you're signed up for a long time, like, you're on the show.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

I enjoy working with all the sharks a lot. Like, the broader question depends on the powers that be and a lot of other factors. But, yeah, I think the format of the show, the show, the people that put it together, it reminds me a lot of the kind culture, like the Shark Tank. Everybody in the crew and in the production team are working towards a higher goal. They're all working towards each other. It's a very cool culture. I. I'm not used to too much Hollywood, but that the way they put the chart is best in class in terms of culture.

[Nicole Lapin]

I love it. Well, maybe we can think about. We'll brainstorm on, like, your net worth, how much you should be investing so you don't have to sleep outside anymore. Just maybe have a budget.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

I thought you were gonna say that you were gonna. You should come visit Shark Tank.

[Nicole Lapin]

I would love to. And I've talked to the producers before. They've asked me for recommendations all the time.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

That. That's useful too, but you should come.

[Nicole Lapin]

My brain. I don't even know if I've recommended you in the past. I can also potentially take credit for that. But it's. It's an amazing. It's an amazing dynamic that you guys have, and you're killing it.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Yeah.

[Nicole Lapin]

It's so fun to watch. I'd love to talk to you about the op ed that you recently put out that I was very, very moved by talking about your Jewish grandfather. As you know, I'm very, very proudly Jewish. Both my parents immigrated from Israel, so I'm first generation American.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

I had forgotten that.

[Nicole Lapin]

But now you remember. And it was so moving to hear about your own anti Semitic experience. Someone you thought was a close friend of yours. Can you share that story?

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Yeah. I was at Stanford Law School, so this was 30 plus years ago. And one of my friends, he was kind of drunk and he started throwing pennies at me and then said, hey Jew, you're a Jew. Pick him up, pick them up. And it really broke my heart. And he was someone that I considered a dear friend and I think, I think he probably regretted it. But.

[Nicole Lapin]

Did you ever talk since then?

[Daniel Lubetzky]

We, we didn't, I don't recall. I probably, I think who I am, I probably shared that I was hurt and I explained it to him, but we never were friends after that.

[Nicole Lapin]

Can you talk about how saving money is misunderstood and what you learned from your grandfather?

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Well, what I talk about, this is a Washington Post op ed where I explained that my grandfather always taught us to not be arrogant about money. But he would emphasize not to be so arrogant that you think it's beneath you to pick up the pennies. And certainly from my experience building kind like I was very proud to be resourceful and to, I mean I would have not been able to build a multibillion dollar company, create billions of dollars in shareholder value if I hadn't been comfortable picking up free furniture like when we were starting the company. Did you ever watch Mad Max? Sometimes I feel we were like in the, like there were these people living in the subterranean thing would come out, there was a fee, a free desk would like that somebody left, would grab the desk and bring it into our basement office. But we saved ourselves $500 and we operated out of the basement of our building instead of a fancy place. And, and, and, and, and, and there were so many ways in which we were initially frugal, then resourceful, but we didn't waste money and we stretched those dollars and we were able to create billions of dollars in value. And still today it's not that I have to not throw out that avocado or that bread, but I, I hate throwing food. Not just because there's people that are hungry, but because I was taught by my parents to not think that I'm above that. And it has nothing to do with being cheap or anything else, or not being Kind or giving, because the opposite. I give tens of millions of dollars a year, every single year in charity. And I am very generous when I have guests, and I try to be lavish with my guests. I love giving. I just don't like throwing stuff out. I think it's dumb and stupid, and the more that you avoid that. And also, it's a skill for a business people to teach, and it's a skill for my to teach my kids. Like, one of the conversations I tend to have with everybody, because everybody does it wrong this way, is like, how many streaming accounts do you have? And we don't do it perfectly, but we don't have an unlimited. We don't have like 20 streaming accounts. You can only watch one TV show at a time. And they. Each of them has enough depth. So the ideal. You're like, who's this dude? I tried to teach my kids, I give them a budget. They're like, make choices, learn. Because otherwise, when they go out into the world, they're going to not be well equipped to negotiate and to make choices. So of course, we can Afford to have five or 10 streaming accounts, but choose the three or four that you like the most and then use them. And then if you ever need the other one, then choose which one you're no longer using, because you're not going to be watching 50 things at the same time. And again, that $10 does not make a difference on my. It doesn't register on my radar. That's not the purpose. Purpose. It's a principle to learn how to. Well, that's what your shows about. Right? Teach people to make choices.

[Nicole Lapin]

Yeah. I mean, how you do one thing is how you do everything, too. So extrapolate that to other things. It's crazy that you say that phrase that you learned growing up, because every time still it's like, embedded in me when I see a penny and, like, nobody uses pennies anymore. You know, I don't even have cash. And. But I will always have to pick up the penny because I was told, like, if. If you don't pick it up, you're not worth the penny. So I don't know, maybe this is like a Jewish experience.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

It should be a human experience and certainly is an American experience because what I talk about in that article, by the way, the pennies are now collector's items, so there's an additional to pick them up because they. They're being discontinued. But part of our founding father's ethos was, you know, Benjamin Franklin talked about a penny, saved a penny Earned is a penny save. A penny saved is a penny earned. And he talked about, like our founding fathers talked about thrift as an essential tool for being entrepreneurial culture. And America is the most extraordinary country for entrepreneurialism. And it's partly because we're not so arrogant that from the dynastic oh la la aristocrats that say, oh, I'm, I'm beneath, you know, saving that dollar. I think we should do that. And then you can be charitable, $1 and donate that dollar, but don't be so arrogant that you think it's beneath you for you to save that dollar. And we're entering a period of a lot of instability where a lot of young people have not been taught the importance and the gifts that we have of this free market system. And it's very imperfect, right? Like there's a lot of people that are suffering that don't have enough. And we need to find a way to create a level playing field so that everybody can be elevated. But part of the toolkit, loser, is to have agency, to not be a victim, to know that you're a protagonist, to have that kindness of spirit with that strength of purpose, and to be comfortable taking decisions that are going to help you earn some money. And that is a fundamental tenant, not just of our Jewish upbringing, but of what made America such a fundamental success story and inspiration example for the world. And we should not lose that. It's really, really important that retain that entrepreneurial, resourceful spirit.

[Nicole Lapin]

Daniel as you know, we end all of our episodes by asking our guests for one tip that listeners can take straight to the bank. What is one final tip about saving, investing, raising money, I think is create.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

A real or artificial sense of scarcity so you can make choices always. Even you can afford it doesn't mean that you should do it. Even if you can get an extra house or an extra car or an extra streaming account. Learn to make choices, because the choice is not just about whether you can afford it. Choices like whether it's going to make your life better. And Warren Buffett used to say that you don't own properties, properties own you. When I was building kind I didn't have, after I sold that, I didn't have a car, I didn't have a house. I was just focused on my business and I was renting and just being resourceful. And fortunately, we now are able to have more. But managing all of that you have takes time. And I don't think I could have built kind. You had to worry about all of the other stuff. And so every decision you make about what you purchase might enslave you more than you realize. So be thoughtful about every decision you're making and use the instrument to think. Not can I afford it, but do. Is this something that's the right thing for me and can I do without it? I think it's. And particularly if you're a parent that's successful when you're raising your kids, find a way for them to learn to make those choices.