← Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
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- [00:00]
Claire Wasserman
Nerds.
- [00:01]
Morgan Lavoy
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- [01:05]
Nicole Lapin
I'm Nicole Lapin, the only financial expert. You don't need a dictionary to understand it's time for some money. Reh.
- [01:19]
Morgan Lavoy
Hi. This is Morgan, the executive producer of the show. And today you are going to hear a conversation that Nicole taped before she was on maternity leave with Claire Wasserman, who happens to be the guest host of Money Rehab this week. Claire is the co founder of Ladies Get Paid, which is a community where women can find resources on how to succeed in their careers, negotiate their salaries, land new jobs and build their wealth. It's a job board. There's personal finance, resources and a network of over 50,000 women. She wrote a best selling book of the same name, Ladies Get Paid, which is the preeminent guide on how women can get recognized and rewarded at work. Claire has this really special ability to coach people on how to get the money that they are worth and that they deserve through addressing whatever root problem is holding them back. Sometimes it's emotional, sometimes it's, sometimes it's systemic. Whatever it is, Claire is really, really talented at identifying what that core issue is and giving you a strategy to help you overcome that. This week, you're going to hear examples of exactly that. This week, while Claire is guest hosting the podcast, you're going to hear conversations in the style of her podcast where she has women come on her show anonymously and talk through a money or career problem that they're Having this week, it's all about because, you know, money Rehab. But check out Claire's podcast linked in the show notes because there's a lot that she covers there. So that's going to be what happens this week. But first, again, here's a conversation that Claire had with Nicole before Nicole went on maternity leave. In the first part of their conversation, you'll hear Claire share tips and strategies that you can use if you're asking for a raise or for more money out of a job offer. And you'll hear tips that you can use that are, you know, gender non specific. But Claire does have an extra layer of advice for women specifically, just because, you know, the wealth gap. Traditionally it's been hard. Women have needed extra strategies to get what they deserve. In the second part of their conversation, you'll hear Claire's origin story and more information about what she's working on and what you can expect out of this week of episodes. Enjoy.
- [03:42]
Nicole Lapin
Claire Wasserman, welcome to Money Rehab.
- [03:44]
Claire Wasserman
I'm so excited to be here.
- [03:45]
Nicole Lapin
So let's talk about blocking and tackling for getting ladies paid. Yeah, I'd love to do a little role play, but first let's just talk about like when to ask, how to ask, why to ask.
- [03:55]
Claire Wasserman
Sure, sure. Okay. Well, a couple of different scenarios. Obviously, if you're negotiating for a new job versus a current job, if the job says you cannot negotiate, can you, you know, yes, you can always negotiate. They are fully aware that by the first offer they put out, it is just that, the first offer, it's always how you do it, not the fact that you're doing it.
- [04:17]
Nicole Lapin
Okay, who tells you you can't negotiate though?
- [04:19]
Claire Wasserman
Some jobs right off the bat will say, this is non negotiable. Yeah. And I always say go do the market research. By the way, market research is not Glassdoor. Okay? Market research, you have to talk to real people who work at the competitor companies. Okay. And it's contextual.
- [04:36]
Nicole Lapin
So how do you find them?
- [04:37]
Claire Wasserman
LinkedIn. Yeah, LinkedIn. So let's say you work for a startup. Don't be talking to people who work at a Fortune 500 company. I, I would say look for a company that's comparable in size, location. Yes. Revenue. Right. You find white men who go work at that company and you message them on LinkedIn. And you don't have to say straight up, how much do you make? You can ask for a range, ballpark, or you can say, what's your input on the research?
- [05:03]
Nicole Lapin
I did just in the message.
- [05:04]
Claire Wasserman
In the message. But you Tie it to a greater purpose. And that is you are being a wonderful ally. Because I think a lot of men are looking for ways that they can help, but they just don't know how. And I always say, share your salary. Oh, and by the way, the other thing you say is this way we can all get paid more. I'm happy to share what I'm making or I'm happy to be a reference for you when it's your time to negotiate. Let's normalize talking about money. Otherwise who has the power? There's not transparency. We as the employee lose. Okay, so when you position your ask to another person in that way, now all of a sudden it's bigger than both of you.
- [05:42]
Nicole Lapin
So this is a cold message on LinkedIn, like, hey, Bob, I'm, I'm negotiating.
- [05:49]
Claire Wasserman
For a salary and okay, and you have a similar job to me. You can also, by the way, blame it on ladies, get paid. You can say, listen, I, you know, I read this crazy book and I was curious, you know, if the offer that I'm getting is on target with what you're making, if you'd be comfortable to share. That's, you know, a wonderful way to support, you know, women and the wage gap. But most importantly, I think let's be allies to each other in everybody getting paid more. If you could get an introduction, it probably would be better, right? Like go to some friends and say, hey, I'm negotiating an offer. Do you know somebody who fits X, Y and Z description? Would you be open to making an intro again? Let me do this for you when it is your time and make this a regular occurrence that you do. By the way, I would love it if everybody could do this when actually they are not looking for a job, but just want to get a sense of what they are in the market as of now. This is how my sister in law realized that she was being underpaid and needed to get a new job where she just was going out there looking around and proactively. Proactively. Yeah. Because this stuff takes time and if you only prepare when you need it, you're already behind or you're putting pressure on yourself.
- [06:59]
Nicole Lapin
Yeah. Desperate vibes.
- [07:01]
Claire Wasserman
Yeah. So just, you know, like Bob, I.
- [07:03]
Nicole Lapin
Must know by Tuesday.
- [07:05]
Claire Wasserman
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And also negotiate or at least start doing this research certainly if your responsibilities have changed. So I would say approximately give or take 20%. So keep a hold of your last job description and then track how responsibilities have shifted your scope because you are absolutely due for a raise. If you are doing More if you're doing work that impacts the business bottom line. And also, by the way, the market is always changing, so maybe your skills are more desirable now. So just because you were paid a certain amount last year doesn't mean that's what you should be paid this coming year. You really have to take a look at how you've grown and how the market's changed. And the only way you're going to know this is by talking to real people. Because there's not accurate data out there that unfortunately we as the employee have access to hr, they have logins to, you know, these aggregates of data that I would love it if somebody could just give me, you know, that their password. But we don't have that. We have Glassdoor. And if you bring that up to your employer, that's where you found your number. Well, it's going to shut down the converse. Yeah, but this is the other thing. I think when you negotiate your salary, you should actually make the conversation really about how you came up with the number, how you did the research, but also how did they do their research? How did they decide that this is why you're lower on that pay band because there's always a range of what you could make. Why did they decide it wasn't the top?
- [08:33]
Nicole Lapin
So make it about the method.
- [08:34]
Claire Wasserman
Make it about the method because that also allows the conversation to be back and forth, back and forth, back and forth as opposed to I'd like this number. Yes or no. That's a close ended question. And the conversation will be over quickly. And then you don't have a chance to like dig into the how did we get here? And then most importantly, how can I make more moving forward? Yeah.
- [08:54]
Nicole Lapin
And what's the best time to ask? So I guess two parts. First, when you're getting an offer so you're just starting. And then second, you've already been there. Yeah.
- [09:03]
Claire Wasserman
I think if you've had a really big win that has had impact on the business bottom line, everything's always about how do you fit into the financial ecosystem of the company. Making money, saving money. Okay, so you've had a really big win. Might be time to have a conversation of comp. You could have a conversation six months in. It's not necessarily about pay though. I think it's just about growth. What am I doing here? How can I do it better? What is the company prioritizing? What are your goals? Where are you investing? Take a look at where budgets are changing. Right. So just, you know, aligning your work with Their upward trajectory. So when I say six months, is it that you're going in and saying, I'd like a raise? No, but you're kind of priming them to see you as somebody who should get a raise. Okay, then probably at your annual review, but try to find out when budgets are decided. Okay, so let's say your annual reviews in February, but budgets are decided in November. Have the conversation in November. Because chances are the person you're speaking to is not the ultimate decision maker, and they're going to need you to kind of help them help you. Yeah. And so it's really about, how do we all do better here? And even saying things like, how does the company give me a raise? As opposed to personalizing it. Because chances are the person you're talking to, they want a raise, too. Yeah. Make them your ally. I'm going to keep using that word like we're all in this together. And I have to remind everybody that. Cause I think when we ask for a raise, we think it's me versus them. It's win or lose. And that just puts so much pressure and almost guarantees that you're not going to get what you want. And hopefully you get, if not the more money, full compensation. Or there's just some momentum happening in your career at this company in a way that's important to you.
- [10:49]
Nicole Lapin
And so how do you come up with that number? Like a Goldilocks, just right. Not too much, not too little. Or do you come up with, you know, bump in base salary and some other comp perks?
- [11:01]
Claire Wasserman
Sure. Yeah. So come up with three numbers because expect that it's going to be a no for your first number. So.
- [11:06]
Nicole Lapin
But throw out the number.
- [11:08]
Claire Wasserman
It depends on the situation. Okay, so if you are applying for the job and you do not have the offer yet, and they ask you how much you want to make, do not tie yourself to a number. Say, this is the general research I've done. I've seen a ballpark. I'd like to hear more about the role. Or I'm sure we can figure something out. You do want to make sure you're on the same page. Otherwise you're actually wasting your own time as much as you're wasting their time. But I wouldn't tie yourself to a number. Okay.
- [11:34]
Nicole Lapin
But we had Bo St John on the show, and she said throw out, like, an outrageous number because you'll never get there.
- [11:42]
Claire Wasserman
Okay. No, no, I disagree. Respectfully disagree. Also, she's very senior. You know, like, again, this is all contextual, but let's say you do have the offer. Okay. And they say, great, we'd love, you know, we want you to work here or you already are working there. Then I think you should throw out the number and you should always say the absolute highest in the market research you did. So for you personally, that might feel outrageous, right? Compared to what you currently make, maybe that's 20, 30, 50,000 more than what you're making, you know, so good. I hope you're uncomfortable saying it, but remind yourself it's not random. You didn't pull it out of the sky. You can back it up with solid market research that you did. You talked to six real people. Okay. And you also have what I say, research and receipts. You got the receipts. You're going to back it up with examples, quantified examples of how you've impacted business bottom line, and how you bring extra to the role, like access to clients, good relationships with vendors. You know, it's not just about, I can do this job, it's how you're doing this job, too. Highest possible number. They'll probably say, no, no worries. You got two more numbers to go, plus full compensation. I have a whole method about this, but don't say too much. You know, just say that top number and then be quiet, which is very hard to do.
- [13:03]
Nicole Lapin
So hard.
- [13:04]
Claire Wasserman
Yeah.
- [13:04]
Nicole Lapin
Silence is delightful if you can sit in it.
- [13:07]
Claire Wasserman
I mean, you hear me jabbering about, shouldn't have had that espresso, Morgan. I'm like, yeah. You know, I actually have a funny story about how accidental silence got me a lot of money.
- [13:16]
Nicole Lapin
Do tell.
- [13:17]
Claire Wasserman
Yeah. So when I first became a freelancer, I had this client that I. Or potential client I was negotiating with, and I said a really, really high number. Still rooted in market research, but, like, a scary number for me. And they said no. I was very crushed. A month later, I get an offer from them for triple the amount. What? And I'm like, triple the. This is not how I thought negotiations are supposed to go. Turns out they had emailed me twice and had gone to my spam folder, and they thought that my silence was a negotiation tactic, which, guess what, it is.
- [13:47]
Nicole Lapin
Wow.
- [13:48]
Claire Wasserman
So I thought, this is a very good teachable moment for me because I 1000% would have said yes immediately to that first number we discussed. But it turns out, you know, I was quote worth triple, actually.
- [14:02]
Nicole Lapin
Damn.
- [14:03]
Claire Wasserman
Yeah.
- [14:03]
Nicole Lapin
I mean, it's harder to do it in person when you're sitting across from somebody than it is to ignore email or. Or like, ignore email by accident.
- [14:11]
Claire Wasserman
Well, also, I don't recommend that people negotiate over email because nuances are lost. And especially for women and women of color, we are looked at as aggressive when we're just being assertive. How do you kind of caveat that or soften it? Positive body language. You're excited, right? You're, you know, you smile. I hate to tell women to smile, but you know, it matters. So you can say that strong number, you can like text could be the exact same thing a man says. But we have to do that extra step of. I mean, I really hate to say that, but there's research, you know, there's research that shows when we don't act positive, then we're defaulted to this nasty woman. So I, I have the quote. You know, what is it? Ginger Rogers did everything that Fred Astaire did, but backwards and heels. Like, that's why it's exhausting to be us. And we need spaces like this to come together and commiserate. And I would say have glass of wine, but I'll have your wine.
- [15:12]
Nicole Lapin
Yes, please.
- [15:13]
Claire Wasserman
I'll take two glasses. It's fine.
- [15:15]
Nicole Lapin
Nothing makes me want to frown more than some guy telling me to smile when you say it.
- [15:20]
Claire Wasserman
It's lovely. But if you know that there is research behind it and you are playing the game of capitalism, it's just a game. It has nothing to do with your actual worth as a human being. You are priceless. But in this system that is set up, I mean, I'm sure you talk about how money, it's real, but it's fake. It's a made up system that we've all bought into, literally. But if you can kind of separate it, it's like, okay, I am Claire and I am priceless. But within this dynamic, we are both playing the game of capitalism and we have to wear certain masks and costumes as we play this game. And then maybe it can be a little fun. Yeah.
- [15:58]
Nicole Lapin
What are some of the drawbacks of aiming too high? So like if you go in when you're first getting an offer.
- [16:07]
Claire Wasserman
Yeah. I mean, I think we want to hire people who are, have common sense. So if a person's coming in and giving me some random high number and they can't back it up and it, it's like, where, where are you on? You know, what plan are you on? So I think if you come in there and you have done your research, you back it up. You talk about how your work impacts the business, bottom line, you really make it about the future. So how investing in you is investing in them. I have this Whole thing about how it's. Imagine you're not even an employee. Think about yourself as a business and you are actually asking for investment. So it's not a, you know, charity or even a reward. Okay. Because that's the past and we want to think about the future. If it's about investing in you, you're really making the case that they're investing in themselves. There's going to be a return, which is true because everyone has a margin on their paycheck. Maybe not non profits. I'm not sure about that. But like if you are hired by a company, that company is profiting off of your labor. Okay. So if you always make your case about how there's profit to be had in your growth, okay. If you have a random number and you can't back it up with that kind of persuasive case, it's like, what are we don't have a conversation starting point. There's no common ground for them to be able to now pick the ball back up. I actually had somebody tell me that he was so impressed with the way this woman negotiated with for herself. And it was a high number, but it was rooted in reality, backed up with the research and the receipts. He kept thinking himself, wow, she's going to represent my company really well. I can't wait for her to negotiate for me. Like I'm. He admired her, you know, it showed good character. And that made me very proud because I had coached her.
- [17:50]
Nicole Lapin
Yeah, yeah. And so you come up with these three numbers. So a high one and middle one and a lower one. How far apart are they?
- [17:58]
Claire Wasserman
Great question. This is completely based on your own budget. So when you do your market research, you'll find there's something called a pay band. Okay. And you might think, all right, highest number, I'm going to go with the middle and the low. But for your own personal budget, maybe you have a lot of expenses and you can't go to the bottom of the pay band in the research. Maybe you really need it to be more like, you know, $2,500 gaps or whatever. Like it's totally based off of your life and also your goals. That's why I love talking about salary negotiation, because it's really an opportunity to explore what do you want to do in your life and how much is it going to cost you to get there. So I really can't say what the kind of increment is between the three, other than pay a lot of attention to that bottom line for yourself because you cannot go below It. So you really have to think to yourself, is this opportunity worth the financial sacrifice I might need to make if I say yes to this?
- [18:56]
Nicole Lapin
And then there's a whole other option that's just a perks option.
- [19:00]
Claire Wasserman
Oh, well, sure, yeah. I mean, look, can be. There can be offers that you're given that actually cost the company a lot more money. Not because they're paying you so much, but because the, you know, the benefits are so great and that's where you have to reflect for yourself. Where do you want to go in your life? And yes, how much is it going to cost? But could this company help you get there by what they're offering?
- [19:21]
Nicole Lapin
So pto.
- [19:22]
Claire Wasserman
Yes. Or transportation, Cell phone, Career coach, Going to a conference.
- [19:29]
Nicole Lapin
Expense account.
- [19:29]
Claire Wasserman
An expense account, a signing bonus, Something that's commission based. You know, it doesn't have to just be for salespeople. Like, look at metrics for the work you're doing and say, all right, if I hit X, Y and Z targets, let's do, you know, an incremental raise. My biggest recommendation I have two. One, don't go off of what you think you can get or what they've demonstrated that they're willing to offer. Had so many women be the first person at their company to suggest, for example, bereavement leave, you know, not just paid leave. And now that's become institutionalized at their company. So you could be the first person to do this second in the conversation, in the negotiation. Don't be the first one to ask for it because chances are they were going to give it to you anyway. So if you come out and say, all right, I'm asking for this amount of money plus this benefit, they might think to themselves, oh, that's a chip. Yeah, they just showed their hand. Right. To go off of the game analogy. Right. Okay, they showed their hand. Sorry, we can't do that amount, but we could give you that perk you asked for.
- [20:33]
Nicole Lapin
But you're already going to get it.
- [20:34]
Claire Wasserman
So just say the number you want with no benefits. Decide on the number, then go to the next part of the conversation. What are you offering for the comp? Make them show their hand first and then have in your back pocket all the other things you wanted.
- [20:48]
Nicole Lapin
So do they have to tell you what kind of bereavement leave you might get?
- [20:55]
Claire Wasserman
That was kind of an extreme example.
- [20:56]
Nicole Lapin
Yeah, yeah.
- [20:57]
Claire Wasserman
Actually, the bereavement person, the first thing she did was got extended paid family leave because she knew she was. Wanted to have children soon and they didn't have a very good policy and made sure to bring that up. Chances are they're going to actually just tell you all the things right off the bat that they're going to give you. Or you'll have done your research and you'll already know. But point being, don't say what you want first. Really have them tell you what's available.
- [21:24]
Nicole Lapin
Hold onto your wallets Money Rehab will.
- [21:26]
Morgan Lavoy
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- [24:02]
Nicole Lapin
For some more money rehab. As someone who's about to have a baby girl asking for paid time off to have a family or for ivf, I've seen women ask for that, which is great as a perk. What's the best way to ask? Because you're also basically telling your new employer that I'm going to take time off to have kids.
- [24:26]
Claire Wasserman
Right. Okay. Love this question. I love anything that feels really uncomfortable because I'm like, how do we not only move through this but actually turn it into an opportunity to look good. I would love anybody out there to say I know that you're a company that values whatever, you know, pay equity or you, you know, your talent, you know that like humans family. And if there's a competitor company that does it. Okay. And I know competitor company also offers it, you know, offers this. So I'd be really, you know, excited to talk to you about the possibility of making something like this happen. Almost as if you are not necessarily volunteering yourself to like create a whole new program. Cuz I don't want anyone to put extra work on themselves unless they want to and they're getting paid for it. But like not like are you giving this to me or not? But like let's work together, let's figure out because maybe for them they go, we can't fully do that right off the bat, but we could start in a small way. There could be a. All right, we don't normally let people work from home. Now most companies do, but you know, we don't normally let people work from home, but let's try one week out of the month. Right? So you're effectively saying to them, here's a small version to test what I'm asking for. And understanding this is a collaboration together that you don't necessarily need a yes or a no immediately but that you have a willingness to work with them to figure out some way to get there. Because chances are they're not able to do it right away, but they're willing to like try a smaller version of your ask. So signal that from the beginning and by the way a great benefit that every single person should ask for and not just women. Subsidized child care. Right? There are organizations out there that work with companies to get them tax breaks if they offer child care. So you could even come with your own research, hey, I know about this company. You know, make it easy for them to say yes. Versus putting all this work on them that they might not be prepared to receive.
- [26:26]
Nicole Lapin
But let's get uncomfortable. Let's get even more uncomfortable. I mean, I've struggled with how to tell different people I work with about being pregnant or what is that going to connote for how I can work later in this year or how much time am I going to take off? I still don't fully know the answer to that question. But how do you approach that in the right way, where you're showing an employer that you are all in, but you also are transparent about your life plans?
- [26:56]
Claire Wasserman
Yeah, I think being proactive with what their concerns might be and addressing them off the bat. So if the concern you have is X, Y and Z, here are some suggestions that I can imagine might work. Just making sure that communication is there, you know, that you never feel like I'm not showing up or, you know, that to me is the foundation of every great relationship, is communication. Maybe that's all you need to say, to be honest. It's not that you have to have specific solutions, but that you're empathetic to the reality for them, you know, that you're not just thinking about yourself and you're going to, you know, use it as an opportunity to be closer to them, I think. I mean, every single person has a thing that they're worried about at work, you know, so if you can turn this into, like a real human connection moment, I have found in the most difficult times, that's when, you know, you really can create a strong bond with somebody. Yeah. But again, tmi, I mean, it's always contextual. Right. So, like, who is this person? And that's why I really encourage everybody to try to get to know people. Even if you don't like them, it's just, you know, kind of understanding how they operate, what their dynamic is, what their goals are, so that you can speak to that. I mean, that to me is the greatest negotiation. I mean, it's common ground. Right. So you have to know what ground kind of they're standing on, too, to make it common. Yeah.
- [28:17]
Nicole Lapin
I've heard a lot of HR managers say they're seeing more and more people ask for signing bonuses to get the seller to where they want it to be. What do you think about that? And how's the best way to approach a signing bonus?
- [28:29]
Claire Wasserman
Yeah, yeah. I've had that happen with a few clients of mine. I think for anybody listening or watching who's thinking, if I want more money and they're telling me no, then how Could I get a signing bonus? Or X, Y and Z, other things that cost money. Different budgets from different departments. Okay. And you'll never know if you don't ask. And also, this is you being creative. So also if you think you're a bad negotiator, but you think you're a good problem solver and you're creative, then you can be a good negotiator. So signing bonus. That's a wonderful example of exactly how do you get to what you want in a way that works for the company?
- [29:02]
Nicole Lapin
Let's double click on where these budgets come from because I think that's important. And also, tax treatments might be different or more advanced or more advantageous to a company if it's framed as a signing bonus versus like on payroll tax or something like that. How should you be thinking through that?
- [29:19]
Claire Wasserman
Yes, I think you should be thinking about who can I build a relationship with at this company that can give me that information? So hr. Good. Recruiter. Good. Honestly, executive assistants, the person you know, they know, they know everything. Somebody who has worked there for a long time, institutional knowledge. It's not that this one person's going to be able to give you everything, probably not. But you're going to take bits and pieces of information, things like when our budget's decided. And by the way, it's never because I'm asking for a raise and I deserve it. Of course you do. But you tell me that you don't tell these other people that you say, I want to make sure that the work I'm doing is maximizing whatever the bottom line, you know, profits, goal, whatever for the company. And so you really make it about just general growth, your work priorities, you know, and that's the entry point into maybe hopefully getting more specific information about the money. You may never know, but you just want to be able to benchmark it against the competitors out there. Yeah, that's it. Because you're. What you were being paid has everything to do with what the competitor companies are paying.
- [30:25]
Nicole Lapin
But just keep in mind generally that there could be different budgets or it could be advantageous for them to pay out expenses that you consider a perk. So it's not just negative on their part and positive on your part. It could be a win win if you keep that in mind, that budgets, taxes, all those other.
- [30:43]
Claire Wasserman
And that you're asking because you want to make it as easy as possible for the company to be able to do this right. So it's saying, you know, how do I get what I'm wanting But in a way that's not, I guess, taxing on you. Whoever is hearing that information is going to go, oh, okay, common ground. They're thinking about my best interest as well, because they have to balance the budget or whatever. They have all these competing dynamics. So already hearing from you that you're thinking about yourself within a context, you know, again, it's that connection. Or they go, oh, this person's, you know, reasonable. Yeah, you're still going to be asking for that highest number, but you're looked at as reasonable.
- [31:18]
Nicole Lapin
What's your biggest pet peeve that people say like, I deserve a raise?
- [31:24]
Claire Wasserman
You know, it's funny because I used to hand out dollar bills at all of my events that I stamped with get paid what you deserve. And I actually really regret that because of what we just said of like, what you deserve. It doesn't really matter what you think you deserve. But also, I think a lot of women don't think they deserve that much actually. And it's abstract and it's worth related. It's too messy. Get paid the highest in the market. Research that you did would have been a better line, I think, to the data. Stick to the data research and receipts. My biggest pet peeve, I think, is seeing a no as a no when it really is a not yet. And whatever their resistance is, that is part of their job. Your job is to transition the conversation to getting the next thing you ask for. So sort of challenge yourself to make these conversations last as long as possible in a way where there is something you are getting, if not the money. And just know that this is going to be, you know, not going to say the worst negotiation you ever do, but practice makes progress. So maybe even imagine that you're practicing for the next time you negotiate.
- [32:29]
Nicole Lapin
And you don't have to be so ravenous out of the gate. There are opportunities for some of these perks in particular while you're working there.
- [32:38]
Claire Wasserman
Yeah. Oh, yeah, I'm getting subsidized childcare. I mean, think about all the things that you're paying for in your life. If somebody else paid for it, that is money in your pocket for sure.
- [32:46]
Nicole Lapin
You ready to role play?
- [32:47]
Claire Wasserman
Sure. Yeah.
- [32:49]
Nicole Lapin
So I'll be the HR hiring manager.
- [32:52]
Claire Wasserman
Okay.
- [32:52]
Nicole Lapin
HR representative hiring manager. I don't know. Okay. So. Hi, Claire. What did you put time on my calendar to talk about?
- [33:01]
Claire Wasserman
Oh, well, first of all, I'm so glad that you made time for me because I know you're super busy. I, you know, I've been reflecting a lot on the work that I have been doing recently and I'm seeing a shift in some of my responsibilities, particularly around client facing work. So I wanted to have a chance to talk to you, just to get on the same page about, you know, where I'm going in the company and, you know, seek your guidance on this.
- [33:24]
Nicole Lapin
Yeah, let's get on the same page.
- [33:27]
Claire Wasserman
It's going to be hard for me. Hold on. By the way, it's gonna be hard for me not to commentate on why I said the words that I'm saying it. Maybe it may be obvious to everybody, but it's already enlisting them to be on the same side as you that it's not. I'm asking for something that you have to say yes or no to. But I'm looking at you almost like a mentor in a way. Right. Like seeking your guidance.
- [33:48]
Nicole Lapin
Also smart.
- [33:49]
Claire Wasserman
Yeah, yeah. And that it's not just about the money, but also that you are aware of your impact on the business. Bottom line, you're not just thinking about yourself. So all of those word choices signal those important things.
- [34:01]
Nicole Lapin
And so to that I would say, absolutely, I would love to help you. Let's get on the same page.
- [34:07]
Claire Wasserman
Great. Okay, so now I brought my notes. And by the way, I recommend that people do this.
- [34:12]
Nicole Lapin
Take notes.
- [34:13]
Claire Wasserman
Bring out your notes. Bring out your notes, make a PowerPoint. I've had people do this. You know, you can laugh about it, be like, I know I'm, you know, overdoing it.
- [34:20]
Nicole Lapin
I think PowerPoint is great. You do PowerPoints for a lot of different projects in your actual job. You should do it for yourself.
- [34:27]
Claire Wasserman
Yeah. And this is helpful for them, you know, otherwise, I mean, how can people just hear things and know what you're saying? Like they want to see visuals. Right. So you might say, you know, I'm. I prepared. So if you don't mind, I just, I took some notes. Okay.
- [34:39]
Nicole Lapin
I love that about you.
- [34:40]
Claire Wasserman
So thanks so much again for the opportunity to discuss my offer. Okay, so the progress I saw last year, and by the way, so the progress I saw last year and now you're going to interject quantified examples. So give maybe your best example of something you did that there was a great result on. I saw a huge increase in whatever. It really encouraged me that I have what it takes to, you know, hit it out of the park, especially as it relates to the business, bottom line in, you know, X, Y and Z ways. Okay. So you'll say things that are about future things you want to do. So remember, this is an opportunity for Growth in more than just money. So if there are projects you want to work on moving forward, you know, this is the time to get them excited about you. It was a bit tricky to do market research for this role or, you know, this, this opportunity. I want to talk to you. So I did do some market research, but I'll admit it was a little bit hard to do it. I talked to about six people who explain your method and it looks like for what I do, the commensurate compensation would be closer to very high number. And I know that you're a company that values pay equity and you personally like you care about the employees. You want to make sure, you know, we're, we're here as long as possible. Right. Because it's expensive to lose talent. So that's my commentation. Curious. What do you think are my next steps? How can we approach this? What can we figure out together?
- [36:05]
Nicole Lapin
So it sounds like you're asking for a raise, is that right? Claire, what are you thinking?
- [36:10]
Claire Wasserman
Yeah, well, that, that number that I said, by the way, I call it the FU number. You know, the FU number, that number that to me, what is what made the most sense for the work I've done, the impact I've had and what you know, is in the market, obviously, you know, if you have budgetary constraints, I mean, tell me like I want to make this work.
- [36:27]
Nicole Lapin
Yeah, I think that number is really high. I'm going to have to ask XYZ people about it.
- [36:34]
Claire Wasserman
I. How, how can I help you? Help me? Like what would be based off of who you're talking to and how they make their decisions? What do you think would not only get them to say yes, but actually be excited about this?
- [36:46]
Nicole Lapin
Well, we've had, you know, hard times and we've even had to lay people off and you know, just the general economy is, is not great right now. So it's going to be a general hard sell. I think that management just wants to buckle down and get through this hard time.
- [37:03]
Claire Wasserman
Yeah, no, I, I totally understand.
- [37:05]
Nicole Lapin
Values you so much.
- [37:06]
Claire Wasserman
Oh well that means a lot of.
- [37:07]
Nicole Lapin
Work that you do.
- [37:08]
Claire Wasserman
And I, and I want to stay. I listen, I don't want to leave. Well, veiled threat over there, right? That's my commentation. And I listen, I don't want to leave. I want to make this work. I like really believe in this company. But you know, let's talk about if the company's not doing well, where are areas that we can see the light at the end of the tunnel? Like if we were to invest some more effort. You know, I, I just, I want to make this company do better. Not just for me, but for, for all of us. So whether or not, you know, you, you have any insight in it, or maybe this is a conversation with somebody else, where does it seem like we are doing a little bit better and is there any timeline or what are we looking at to indicate that this investment that we're making in this area of the business is going to pay off literally?
- [37:51]
Nicole Lapin
These are really great questions, probably above my pay grade, but I will, I will investigate. Is that, is that the presentation that you brought?
- [38:01]
Claire Wasserman
Well, actually I do have some more case studies that I put together very specifically, like here's my work and quantified impact and also some testimonials. Um, so my commentation here is go and take screenshots if possible, or at least copy and paste beautiful feedback you've inevitably gotten. Like whether it was from clients, teammates, managers, like, don't just take it from me. You know, so and so said this thing and the analogy of you are pitching your business for investment, you would have product reviews ostensibly, right? Use the same thing. Use the same thing. But always going back to what do you think I should know to make this as easy of a yes as possible. And if it's not a yes for this number, let's talk about full comp. So maybe at this point you could even open it up to asking for their guidance on other things. But it sounded like in this exchange the next step would be the HR person would go and make that case. I mean, you could say, would this PowerPoint be, you know, do you want to present it to them? Maybe I could present it to them.
- [39:08]
Nicole Lapin
Yeah. Why don't you email it to me?
- [39:10]
Claire Wasserman
Okay, great. I would always say, see if you could be the one to present it if possible, because that's FaceTime with somebody influential that you're going to get. Again, this is an opportunity to look really good. You may still get a no, but they are going to be thinking themselves that's a go getter. That's a go getter because they really thought about business bottom line. I think this is why not to say that like business owners who fail should go and get another job and they'd be great at it. But like they kind of would be great because they have so much empathy on what it takes to run a business and that every quote argument they make, it's always about how is this whatever it is, time investment going to pay off and what are the reverberations with other people in this company. You know, what I do impacts this other team, et cetera. I think thinking of yourself as an entrepreneur is the key to making a very compelling negotiation. Yeah.
- [40:02]
Nicole Lapin
Putting yourself in the shoes of what they're dealing with, like making money. If you show me that you're making me more money, then I will give you more money.
- [40:12]
Claire Wasserman
Listen, my mom ran a nonprofit for many years, and she said, you know, people come to her and ask for raises that she couldn't give, but she would give them to some people who talked about how they were going to help fundraise or, you know, they had an idea for the development department. And again, I don't advocate for people to add extra things to their plate necessarily, but if that's the way the company needs to make more money, it might not be your department, but do you want that raise or not? And also, by the way, getting more insight into how other departments work might allow you to say, I actually want to move into that department. Or now I'm, you know, even more valuable person here or for another job.
- [40:48]
Nicole Lapin
You've hired people. Have people used these tactics?
- [40:51]
Claire Wasserman
Yeah, that's how many employees. I don't have any employees. I literally cannot afford anybody because I'm. Ladies get paid, and I would have to pay them a top freaking dollar, and I'm not making enough. So. And the other crappy thing about what I do is I have so many women saying, I'd like to volunteer. I'm like, oh, but I can't do that. But here's what I've learned. Value exchange. And it's a real thing, though. You have to obviously think for yourself. Okay, I might not be getting paid, but is this thing that they're giving me a barter? A barter, right. So if the person's like, I'm trying to pivot into a new industry. Listen, I still say no to everybody because I. I'm just too nervous. I. I don't know. I feel like I have to be held to a really high standard here. And there's been lots of other women's organizations that have, like, gone down in flames every day. I'm like, am I going to be canceled? And then I think no, because I literally don't let anybody work for free. And I don't have anybody who works for me at all. I don't have the budget or the bandwidth to be the wonderful employer that I think people should have, which keeps me small. And that's unfortunate, too, but so mighty.
- [42:06]
Nicole Lapin
Hold onto your wallets. Money Rehab will be right back. And now for some more money. Rehab. How did you start? Ladies get paid.
- [42:22]
Claire Wasserman
Ooh. I mean, ladies get paid. It started with a sexist experience. I was at this conference with my co workers, and a man asked me whose wife I was, and certainly not his. I was there for work, and for whatever reason, that sexist comment unlocked everything for me. It's not like I hadn't experienced stuff like this before. I think I just had brushed under the rug. I saw the rest of that conference through a entirely different lens, noticing how I was frequently in a group and a man would not look at me or shake my hand and would speak to the men. And I remember going into the women's restroom and seeing all these women trading business cards and, like, lipstick and makeup tips, and it was like that's where the women were doing business. I have goosebumps to this day because it was the first time in my life that I experienced the power of what it can be like when you are around supportive women. This was probably 10 years ago at this point. I Googled women and the wage gap, and I was blown away by what I found. That was the beginning of, you know, the rest is history. But sort of my little awakening, my aha moment, for whatever reason, it was that sexist comment. So thank you to that man.
- [43:32]
Nicole Lapin
Yeah, thank you, sir, wherever you are. But it sounds like that was just the catalyst for something that had been brewing for a really long time.
- [43:41]
Claire Wasserman
Oh, yeah. I. Again, I had had all of these other kinds of sexist experiences, but that I had never allowed myself to say, that is wrong. For whatever reason, I just wanted to keep moving fast. Well, all right. Well, screw that guy. Let me. Let me find a different person, you know, or I would internalize it. You know, it must have been because my dress was too short or I was too, you know, friendly. I mean, I'd even been told that by one guy was, well, why did you give me your business card, you know, if you didn't want to be kissed? And I'm glad that I took a moment to say, hold on. What is happening here? And is it happening to other people? And most importantly, what can we do about this? And where do we start? Where do we start?
- [44:21]
Nicole Lapin
Where do we start? I mean, when you were in the bathroom trading lipstick and business cards, did you talk about how much you guys got paid for this conversation?
- [44:29]
Claire Wasserman
Oh, no, no, no.
- [44:30]
Nicole Lapin
Didn't get paid.
- [44:31]
Claire Wasserman
No. I was a baby. I was. This was just me being struck by the energy of all of these women. I Think it was after I went home and I googled women in the workplace and the wage gap. And I went down this sort of research rabbit hole and I started to talk to a friend of mine who is a freelance art director, very talented, who admitted to me that she was not charging as much as her male counterparts. So for her wage gap, it was self inflicted and she didn't know how much to be paid. So there was a lack of information. But this is the part I found most interesting. Why did she default to the lower amount? Because she knew that it was less. She was aware, but she didn't know how to bring herself to ask for more. That was the real aha moment of what is the first step to closing inequities in our life? Let's talk about it. And specifically money, because that's the vehicle to power. And it's also so much more than just money. I mean, it's, you know, I mean, literally it's everything. It's just a portal.
- [45:32]
Nicole Lapin
I mean, yes, it's a tool, but also money has a lot of trauma and energy with it. Did you grow up in a scarcity or abundance mindset? Like, where did this.
- [45:44]
Claire Wasserman
I grew up in an avoidance. An avoidance mindset. Oh, yeah. We never talked about money. But I have an interesting memory that I wrote about when I went and I got a master's certificate in behavioral finance and financial psychology. And this memory was the first time I was ever paid. It was $20. And I was thinking about all the things I was going to buy. And we were walking down the street. This, this was in New York. And were you. I was probably six. Yeah, I was six years old. I'd gotten paid $20. And so I was walking down the street and it was, you know, 94, 1994, I think there was a lot of homelessness in New York at that time. And I, you know, really wanted to buy something for myself, but then I saw a person on the street, this woman, and I felt this urge to like, I want to give my money away. Which sounds really lovely. But when you dig in deeper, if you get a master's certificate in financial psychology and your professor tells you this, this desire to just say, I don't want it, get rid of it, or.
- [46:42]
Nicole Lapin
To help other people first. Like put.
- [46:43]
Claire Wasserman
Yes, the marker.
- [46:44]
Nicole Lapin
Put your oxygen master.
- [46:46]
Claire Wasserman
Yeah, yeah. And I kind of wish my mom had said, that's so noble. Yes, we should donate, but let's take a percentage and save it. Percentage and spend. You know, sort of use it as a share.
- [46:58]
Nicole Lapin
Yeah.
- [46:58]
Claire Wasserman
Exactly. Use it as a teachable moment for how to build a healthy relationship with. But, you know, I don't mean to blame her, but it was. Okay, we'll. We'll give it away. So I. I sort of love that story, but also, I'm kind of sad by it because I've held on to that today. This. This sort of martyrdom of. I want to obviously make money, but I frequently want to give it away, too, and I have a hard time balancing the two.
- [47:20]
Nicole Lapin
Well, I think a lot of women feel that way.
- [47:22]
Claire Wasserman
Oh, sure. Oh, yeah. Guilt. Guilt that more for me means less for you.
- [47:27]
Nicole Lapin
Like, this general scarcity mindset might come from the avoidant mindset more so than an abundance mindset, because you're just not talking about it at all. And so, you know, I think women default to this idea that it's worse than it is or there's not going to be enough.
- [47:49]
Claire Wasserman
Again, if money is power, you can wield it. So it's just another example of diminishing yourself. Give it away. I have less than. I have less than. Or a lack of worthiness. Right. If I don't deserve to take up more space, you know, it's. It's deep. You know, we say it's like, join ladies, get paid, or, you know, listen to your podcast, but also get a therapist, because you start to unravel this stuff, and you realize it's so much bigger than just what's in your bank account.
- [48:17]
Nicole Lapin
Oh, truth, sister. It is. It really comes from these memories that either we've suppressed or we haven't thought about or connected those dots. You know, I. I remember when I had this aha. Moment that I used to have to turn off the lights when I left a room to save money on power or, like, only flush the toilet when it was number two to save money on utilities growing up. And then I remember noticing as an adult that I would leave all the lights on.
- [48:46]
Claire Wasserman
Oh. Oh. It's like an act of rebellion.
- [48:48]
Nicole Lapin
Yeah. So my partner was like, like, can we turn off the lights? Like, what's the story? And. And it dawned on me that I was like, no, I. I can now afford as much electricity as I want, and so I'm gonna leave all the lights on.
- [49:02]
Claire Wasserman
Yeah.
- [49:03]
Nicole Lapin
And I. You know, you could say I was being careless or something like that, or you could sort of peel back the onion and say, this came from this really deep. Yeah, crazy place that I. I never explored or connected those dots.
- [49:16]
Claire Wasserman
Something that was helpful for me in unpeeling my own layers was to Also start to peel back the layers of my family. Sometimes we know the trauma or the baggage that our family has gone through, but sometimes we don't, but we can imagine. So an exercise that has been helpful is thinking about, well, what was my mother's relationship with money growing up in her family? Or let's take the word money out of it and say, how about just space? Her ability to show up as her full self, you know, in her family. Then we jump to her mother, right? So my grandmother. What about her relationship with money or her ability to take up space. Right. All through the generations. And then I find myself feeling lighter, actually, because it's not my fault, you know, it's not my fault. And also, I want to do better, you know, for my kids. And, you know, I feel proud that I'm making a difference in my own behavior, but knowing that it doesn't happen by, you know, one day you wake up and everything's fine. It's the work that you're putting in, right? That's what counts. It's the books you read, the podcasts you listens to. It's the desire to change. Like, that counts. I think too many women think, until I am fixed, then I will be happy. No, it is lifelong. You will probably always have a relationship with turning on or off the lights, but hopefully now it can be, you know, a sort of funny. You go, oh, well, that's my thing.
- [50:32]
Nicole Lapin
Totally, totally. And it's, you know, it's constant work and practice. Like, you know, you don't go to the gym, get ripped, and then never go to the gym again.
- [50:42]
Claire Wasserman
Right.
- [50:43]
Nicole Lapin
Only a lifetime of good habits will counteract that lifetime of bad habits that I had that I didn't know. Or we just watched what we were shown by our parents when they watch what they were shown by their parents. And this generational trauma is super real around money. So I'm glad that you're connecting those dots. Thank you.
- [51:02]
Claire Wasserman
Also, I think a lot of of people get frustrated because they say, well, I intellectually know better, but I'm not doing better. It's almost more frustrating when you can see you're aware, but you don't know how to make the change. It's like, ignorance is bliss, exists as a cliche for a reason. Just know, start with the triggers, like just what happens to trigger that behavior, and really focus on being kinder to yourself in that moment and taking a pause over time. That's the muscle that you build. So that's always my first step that I give people because I have a lot of folks come to me and go, oh, but I have the awareness, and it's almost like more excruciating now. Yeah.
- [51:39]
Nicole Lapin
Damn. Behavioral finance masters for the win.
- [51:43]
Claire Wasserman
Yeah.
- [51:43]
Nicole Lapin
You're such a delight and so smart. I know your stuff, and I love your mission. You're also helping us here at Money Rehab.
- [51:51]
Claire Wasserman
Yay. I'm so excited.
- [51:52]
Nicole Lapin
So excited. I'm going to be passing the mic to very, very good, capable, small but mighty hands.
- [51:59]
Claire Wasserman
Yes. Yay. I know. I. I was like, I think I know when you're going to have your baby, because that's what I'm filling in, which, again, is so smart. See, this was a solution. You think to yourself, oh, I can't do my job, or I have to take time off. But I bet some amazing things are going to come out of all of these guest hosts. We're all going to, you know, cross pollinate audiences and get to experiment. And so it really illustrates the point that when something is difficult, there is absolutely a way to make a really exciting thing come out of it.
- [52:25]
Nicole Lapin
What are you excited about bringing to the audience?
- [52:29]
Claire Wasserman
I've just launched a new program. I coach women through all kinds of challenges at work, but a lot of times, the barriers that they're facing, it's really their internalized patriarchy, for better lack of a better word. Right. You can't ask for more money if you don't believe you're worthy of it. I mean, you can, but are you going to stand your ground? Are you going to be the most compelling version of yourself? So I'm starting to work with women in a very structured way to just quiet the inner critic, have accountability to doing that, and really experiment with different techniques and, you know, to come up with a practice for yourself that makes it so that when you are having a struggle, whether it's with money, your job, or whatever, you're, like, always able to come back to yourself. I think that's the key to unlocking whatever you want in your life. It's the foundation of the house. Kind of jump to, like, the house part, which was, let's get more money. But hold on, let's make sure you feel okay first. So I'm really excited about that. And then my podcast, ladies get paid, which is my as I joke wannabe Esther Perel. I coach women who are really brave. They're off camera and we change their names, but they go deep. Like, two minutes in, they're. They're crying.
- [53:38]
Nicole Lapin
Damn.
- [53:39]
Claire Wasserman
Yeah, that's my. I like when that happens because we don't have time to not be real. I know. I'm very gleeful about this. Listen Oprah. Deborah, I'm sure is saying the same thing. Like it is a success if the person is crying because like everybody emails me the same email after they come to my event or listen to my stuff. I thought I was the only one. I'm like, there have been 3 million messages exchanged in my Slack group that I can see you are not the only one. So if we can just get people to be very transparent about the thing they're struggling with, that almost is the first step to like, ah, I don't have shame about this. All right, we can figure it out.
- [54:19]
Nicole Lapin
And one of the first steps is I, I call it the mean girl inside your head.
- [54:23]
Claire Wasserman
Like to.
- [54:23]
Nicole Lapin
To take a seat.
- [54:24]
Claire Wasserman
Yeah. I say thought monster. Yeah.
- [54:27]
Nicole Lapin
She's so mean some to me sometimes.
- [54:29]
Claire Wasserman
You gotta love the shit out of her. I don't know if I'm allowed to curse, but that's actually the key is you have to have an awesome relationship with the mean, the mean ones versus fighting them because they'll, they'll win in your head. Yeah, they're just trying to help you out, but they didn't know how to do it because they formed at a young age. So you go, I'm really curious to learn about you and I want to thank you. Yeah. It has to all be about compassion and curiosity. It doesn't mean you have to like the behavior, you know, but you have to love the child inside that's doing that to you. I mean, they're throwing a tantrum. Now that I have kids, I see lots of analogies there.
- [55:06]
Nicole Lapin
As I pass the torch to you, what is one tip that listeners can take straight to the bank? You gave us so many already.
- [55:12]
Claire Wasserman
Yeah, yeah. I think one tip to take away to the bank is if you don't ask 100% guaranteed that you won't get. You literally have nothing to lose to ask. Except for a lot of money, I should mention. People will go, will I lose the opportunity? It rarely happens. And do you want to work there anyway? Which is a privileged response on my part. This is why always have a safety net. Whether it's savings side hustles, networking, other offers, be prepared to walk away. I mean, those make the strongest negotiators, the ones who can say no.
- [55:47]
Nicole Lapin
It's so scary though.
- [55:48]
Claire Wasserman
It is scary. But again, how do we grow if not by doing the scary things? I mean, to me it's unfortunate, but it's always through the suffering that we gain the most wisdom and it's always through the hard stuff that we're like actually feel really proud of myself. This is an opportunity to feel really good. I keep saying that, but I've seen it over and over again. It's not a think positive silver lining bullshit. Like, I have genuinely seen women and also feedback from male bosses going, this person is dynamic. They came in and they did it this way. Like, you look good doing that. But again, practice, you have to practice it because it won't necessarily be natural to you.
- [56:26]
Nicole Lapin
Making money looks good on you.
- [56:28]
Claire Wasserman
Do we have a shirt for that?
- [56:34]
Nicole Lapin
Money Rehab is a production of Money News Network. I'm your host, Nicole Lapin. Money Rehab's executive producer is Morgan Lavoy. Our researcher is Emily Holmes. Do you need some money rehab? And let's be honest, we all do. So email us your money questions moneyrehaboneynewsnetwork.com to potentially have your questions answered on the show or even have a one on one intervention with me me. And follow us on Instagramoney News and TikTok MoneyNews Network for exclusive video content. And lastly, thank you. No, seriously, thank you. Thank you for listening and for investing in yourself, which is the most important investment you can make.