← Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
"I Feel Guilty Asking For More Money. Am I Wrong? Coach Me!" with Claire Wasserman
00:49:02
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- [00:00]
Claire Wasserman
Nerds.
- [00:01]
Nicole Lapin
Hey guys, if you're anything like me, you've got a lot on your plate this new year. You've got college reunions to plan, what feels like 100 destination weddings to book travel for, and a gym membership that just needs to be used like once or twice. Good thing our sponsor, NerdWallet is here to take one thing off your plate. Finding the best financial products. Introducing NerdWallet's 2025 Best of Awards list. You'll your shortcut to the best credit cards, savings accounts, and more. The nerds have done the work for you, researching and reviewing over 1,100 financial products to bring you only the best of the best. Looking for a lower rate on your auto insurance? They've got a winner for that. Or a balance transfer credit card with 0% APR? They've got a winner for that too. Know you're getting the best products for you without doing all that research yourself.
- [00:53]
Claire Wasserman
So.
- [00:53]
Nicole Lapin
So let NerdWallet do the heavy lifting for your finances this year and head over to their 2025 Best of Awards at NerdWallet.com awards to find the best financial products today. I'm Nicole Lapin, the only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to understand it's time for some money.
- [01:12]
Claire Wasserman
Reh Hi, I'm Claire Wasserman, the founder and author of Ladies Get Paid, a podcast newsletter and coaching practice dedicated to helping women embrace their worth inside and out. I'm honored to be guest hosting for Nicole while she's out on maternity leave. And you've probably noticed that there's a few of us, although just a heads up, I'm a little bit different. Instead of interviewing my guests, I'm going to be coaching them. We have three women lined up, each one struggling in her relationship with work and money, will be calling in no camera on, to protect their identity so that they can feel as comfortable as possible to share. Because I believe transparency can be transformative. When you see yourself in somebody else's journey, you realize you're not alone. And that can do so much in letting go of the shame that so many of us carry in regards to money. Today's guest is Danielle, who is really struggling to charge what she's worth. She has had a roller coaster of a relationship with money. Danielle has gone from making very little and being on food stamps to making over six figures but being burnt out and getting burned. And now she runs her own business, a creative agency, but is seriously struggling to ask for more because in her words, she feels like it's taking away from the people she wants to help. In this episode, we tackle the mindsets needed to not see things so much in black and white. I really urge Danielle to be able to see that many things can be true at once. You can do good and do well. You can play the game and and play it in a way that honors your values. I'm so curious to hear what you think about my advice, so comment below and don't forget to like and subscribe. Take a listen. Danielle, thank you so much for joining me today. And I know we've spoken already before and you know you have some feelings about money as we all do, but in your own words, could you give me a little bit more context or details about where you're at in your relationship with money and how I can be most helpful and supportive to you today?
- [03:30]
Danielle
I think that money has always been like a little bit of a complicated topic I grew up with. Like, you know, my parents didn't have much money and they were in service oriented professions like trying to help other people. And so money was kind of something that if you had a lot then it was like egotistical or selfish and you weren't sharing with others. I feel like saying that now sounds a little bit strange. I don't know if I have the best language for it still, but that is actually what I went to college. I went to college to try to be in a profession that was helping other people, just really geared toward that. I knew I wasn't going to be making money. I'm not actually in that profession and my life has taken a much different route. But I did spend time post grad, my first postgraduate job after my bachelor's degree. I only made $19,200 a year and I also had kid that year and spent time on food stamps, Medicaid, which truly saved my life because I would be drowning in debt if not just due to a lot of unforeseen circumstances. I ended up in jobs where I was making six figures, worked my way up in the creative realm, mostly as a creative director at a tech company for my last full time position until this past July when I was forced to go out on my own. But it was honestly the best nudge. I had been needing to quit the job that I was at for a while, but it was like the golden handcuffs. I made too much to feel like I could easily step away and I was honestly too overwhelmed and stressed there to even thinking about doing something else. So I got hit in layoffs and that really Propelled me into where I am now, which like I had begun, begun by applying for a bunch of jobs and the jobs just weren't opening up and my partner was like, well, what if you could actually do the thing that you wanted to do? So now I'm here, I'm maybe trying to do the thing that I actually want to do. I have no idea how to actually take care of my family in a productive way. So it's kind of this tension. I started my own company kind of broadly thinking that if I could take all of my creative wheelhouse and turn it into a company that supports other people, then I'm more wondering if I could make good money that way. Instead, I've ended up working with a lot of people that I love working with. The people that I'm drawn to work with are mostly women who cannot afford to pay. And I love working with them and I do not feel right charging them. And I do not know how to also be responsible and take care of my family and have boundaries when it comes to money as well.
- [06:25]
Claire Wasserman
Very, very, very helpful. There's a number of things that you've said that I want to point out. First of all, acknowledging the fact that you have been roller coaster of a relationship with money in the sense of how you grew up. So service oriented parents who didn't make much, but you had exposure to people who did felt they were egotistical, maybe then you made very little when you first graduated, you had lots of debt, but it was taken care of through social services. And then you worked your way up to six figures. But in doing those things in the working your way up and making more, you burnt out, Is that right?
- [07:05]
Danielle
Yeah, I think that I have like every, you know, couple year burnout cycle. That's my tendency. So hopefully I'm off of it for a little bit.
- [07:14]
Claire Wasserman
Let's not say, you know, you can say hopefully, but with a plan, we will ensure that you are off that cycle. So from what I hear from you, you equate money. And when I say you, by the way, for anybody listening and watching, I'm also saying you too, and me too, because this is a lot of us. But for you, Danielle, particularly, you seem to associate money with, okay, so ego, which we can go a little bit more depth. Okay, so ego. So maybe more for me means less for you. So this binary way of looking at receiving money, money is ego. Money also equals burnout because when you did make six figures, you were overwhelmed and in a sort of toxic work environment. Right. So has there ever Been a time where you made a lot of money and it felt really good?
- [08:01]
Danielle
No, not at this point in my career, which I'm in my mid-30s, and so much of my career has just been hustling and hauling ass to, like, try to, you know, get better projects or get, you know, better income or things like that. I don't think that I've been able to do that. Like, be at ease, but also feel respected by the income that I'm making.
- [08:26]
Claire Wasserman
Yeah, I'm gonna say a cliche, but it's a cliche for a reason. You know this expression, you can't be what you can't see? It's very true. Because when you haven't yet experienced something in your life, it is so difficult to imagine that it could possibly happen for you. So I am curious, do you know of anybody, whether you've spoken to them? So you know them personally? Or maybe they're more aspirational, where they seem to have made a living, a really good living, while also not burning out? Of course, we don't know the true story of behind the scenes, but is there a good model to follow, possibly to remind us that we. We can do this right? That many things can be true at once? You can do good and do well and provide for your family while also not burning out? Do we know anybody who's done that?
- [09:15]
Danielle
I don't mean to be cynical, but honestly, I think that is a point of frustration for me right now because the only people that are immediately coming to mind and the people that I have been witnessing, especially recently, are mostly men who are consultants who have ended up being able to charge exorbitant amounts and make that money. And I think that that's kind of one of the things that's been really frustrating me is knowing how many, like, extremely overqualified women I know who are not getting that and not being able to just, like, sit around and just rake the money in. You know, someone, I was just talking to a friend this morning who was talking about hearing someone brag that he was making $4,000 a day doing nothing. And it's just like the assholes that end up raking in the money. And it's really frustrating to me, just like our society in general in so many ways, that is not working for the people and so many extremely overqualified people that I know, and I'm not actually even referencing myself in that regard, but just how hard it is to, like, God, if she can't do it, then, like, if she is, like, so extremely Overqualified, like, so much more qualified than me, you know, has 15 more years of experience on me, but she is also begging for scraps like that. That pisses me off. And that's one of the frustrating things, is like, I know that this exists. I don't know how to make that a reality for people, let alone for myself.
- [10:46]
Claire Wasserman
Yeah. Okay. I'm about to say something that I want you and everybody watching, listening to. Listen up. It is not about being qualified, okay? Making money, doing well in our careers, growing our businesses. I wish it was whoever is the most talented person makes the most money or whoever works the hardest, whoever's the most qualified, the best person gets the reward. And it is so not the case. You know who gets the reward? The people who play the game, who can really optimize within the system. Here's your problem, my problem, and a lot of our problems. We hate the system. So, yeah, we hate the game. So we go, screw it. I'm not playing well. I'm not trying to be broke here. Neither are you. So.
- [11:30]
Danielle
Right.
- [11:31]
Claire Wasserman
What I'm going to share with you is a whole process, okay? And we're going to go through step by step and you're going to tell me all the things you hate about my process and we're going to work together for that resistance, right? Because trying to sort of do things for the aspiration, they never work. Right? Obstacles are always greater than the aspirations. So we'll make the plan around the roadblocks and the resistance, but we have got to dig into this system that currently exists and find our own way, find our own way of playing it while also kind of on the side. And I'll get more specific about this in a minute, but can we create a new game as we are playing the one that currently exists? And of course, this all sounds very exhausting, and that's why we have to have outlets where we can connect with each other and have catharsis, etc. Etc. But I think many things are true at once. We can do more than we realize, but we have to do it smart, okay? Because we cannot burn out. That is not an option. Neither one of us can literally afford to burn out.
- [12:35]
Danielle
Right?
- [12:36]
Claire Wasserman
We're both breadwinners for our families here, so it's just literally not a possibility. Okay?
- [12:41]
Danielle
Right.
- [12:42]
Claire Wasserman
So I want to say that it's not about being qualified. It's about who kind of plays the game the best. But you can't win at a game you hate. So we're going to actually learn to love the Game. All right? And then here's your first piece of homework. Okay, for you, Danielle, but everybody listening. Find examples of people who are doing things in the way that you would like to. So you see these guys out there who are like, I'm making $4,000 doing nothing, and it makes you enraged. Okay, don't pay attention to those guys, but see if you could go find somebody who reminds you of you, who figured it out, who said, hey, listen, I'm, you know, I'm a creative. I've been through a whole journey with my relationship with money. I've resisted X, Y, and Z, and here's how I'm making money in a way that feels good. So I want you to go find examples, you know, and. And they can all represent different sort of aspects of aspiration. So it might not necessarily be a person who's exactly like you and all of the things, but they have figured out some way to run a business, create a life that does not require burnout, nor selling their soul. Okay, so that's the first order of business for you before I get into the process. All the steps, the resistance, etc. Anything else you want to share or any sort of feedback, things that you're thinking, feeling to what I've talked about.
- [13:58]
Danielle
So far, I guess I fucking hate the game. I wish that we didn't have to play the game. I wish, like, I didn't have to, like, vomit every time I open LinkedIn. I just am trying to figure out how to be an authentic person and, like, still be true to myself. And I would love for there to be a way where, like, I can still feel fulfilled but also still put food on the table. And then I would also love to give that way to other people too. And I. That's like, one of the things is, like, if I wish we could, like, build a new game and then have invite everyone that I know who is also struggling with this to be part.
- [14:37]
Claire Wasserman
Of that good news. That's going to be one of my suggestions for you. And we're going to make it into a schedule that works and a pricing that feels good.
- [14:51]
Nicole Lapin
Hold onto your wallets. Money rehab will be right back. And now for some more money rehab.
- [15:04]
Claire Wasserman
So let me walk you through four major areas of building both a business, but also a life of career that fills your bank account and your soul. How about that? Okay, so we've got the product, the pricing, the pipeline, and the process. I love a good alliteration as I go through each of these four. We're going to talk through your resistance, where you're going to give me all the reasons which are all valid of what you hate about it. And then I'm going to hopefully show you both a different way to see it and also a different way to approach it. Because mindset's just the first step. It's a critical one, but you've really got to put the mindset into motion for there to actually be changed. So let's talk about product. And for anybody watching and listening who maybe works for someone else, this still applies to you, because what the product is, well, first of all, it's you. You ultimately are the product, which you may have some problems with, but you are the product. What is the problem that you solve and for who? Some of us do that while being employed, but you still are solving a problem for a group of people. You just happen to get your paycheck from a boss. Right? So, again, trying to, like, thread the needle for anyone watching and listening who maybe isn't an entrepreneur. This is still relevant to you. So tell me, Danielle, what is the problem that you're solving in your business and who do you solve it for? And it's totally fine if you don't have a concise answer and you want to just share a bunch of stuff with me, but I would love to hear in your words what that is.
- [16:32]
Danielle
Yeah, I feel like that's definitely something that has been a challenge I have been able to make happen for people, and that's what I've done for CEOs and in these companies. And I know how to do that in the creative realm. And I don't know how to turn that into a business that has perfect product market fit.
- [16:55]
Claire Wasserman
The reason we're going through all of these is I want to illustrate both to you and everybody watching and listening, is that there isn't one golden sort of bullet here where if, oh, you just figure that thing out, everything else will follow, necessarily. Right. But if you don't tackle this product and this product market fit, as you say, which is the next step of, like, the pricing, right, who's willing to pay for it? Of course you're going to still have resistance. Of course you're not going to know where to allocate your time, and you're going to have to say yes to things that aren't correct with your values. And so we've really got to figure out a way to find a core group of people who are willing to pay for your services while also carving out time in your life to be able to do Things that maybe fill your soul, if not your bank account. And then seeing in a given week, in a given month, in a given quarter, when you step back, you go, okay, I do have balance. I don't have it in a given day or maybe in a week. But when I look at overall, my month and or my quarter, actually, I am giving a proper percentage to helping people and I am giving another proper percentage to putting food on the table. I'm going to throw out a couple of suggestions to you. What would it look like if you produced an amazing sort of podcast docu series for a tech company and that was how you brought in a paycheck. However, you made sure that it was for a company that was aligned with your values and that you had sort of systems in place to protect you from burnout. Whether it was you setting your own boundaries with yourself and not overworking, but also conversations, you know, transparency with your boss, of I'm unavailable after 6pm Right, because I've got young kids or whatever. Tell me your resistance, if you have any, to the thought of working full time for somebody else. Again, the only reason I suggest that for you is because it's a little bit easier to find product market fit because, well, those jobs are posted. They're telling you there's product market fit. They want to hire you. I know you've had bad experiences in the past working for other people, but you're wiser now. You know what to look for, you know what to safeguard against. Tell me about the prospect of going full time.
- [19:19]
Danielle
That's theoretically fine. I did try really hard to do that. And the jobs just, you know, I started applying over the summer and stuff like that, and things were just like, really tough. And I know a lot of incredible people that got hit with layoffs that are still struggling to get a position. And I struggled then too with how to kind of like cast myself. I have worked across three different industries, at least already, and the thing that I do is called a different thing in each one and requires a different background in each one. And I know that I can do certain jobs, but when I'm asked if I am the best person for a job or things like that, like, that's where it's like. I do know that there's so many people who have really refined their skill set in that one area. And I've been like, all over the board and that was a little bit of a challenge when I was applying for jobs.
- [20:24]
Claire Wasserman
Okay, let's then go into how you can cobble together some money. Right now. So the people that you currently want to work for, they just don't have any kind of budget or. Talk to me about when you price something, like your experience of putting a dollar amount on the work that you do, what does that feel like? And then when you tell somebody what is that experience?
- [20:46]
Danielle
I think that when people just like, have like cold approached me, I've been working on how to share my pricing. And the problem is, is that even if someone's been willing to like, pay me the full price, I felt bad, like stating it aloud and just said like, pay whatever. Just like, do a. Pay what you can. More so because, like, I know that they're struggling or I think that they're struggling. And then I've gotten burned a few times doing that because then I saw them turn around and pay someone 10 times what they paid me without thinking about it. And that kind of like, that kind of. I don't know if it hurts, but it's just like kind of a bummer. But it's also partially my fault, you know, that that happened. But yeah, I think that I've been still trying to find out what that like, product market fit is. It's almost like I've been doing that thing where I'm like beginning again in a way and like, oh, like, I'll just like price these lower. Just like do some of these things just to get my feet wet and to start like getting more of like a portfolio in this specific area. And that's been a challenge with like then going out and like, I don't really go out and try to find business either. That's one of my problems. I don't know how to like, pitch myself necessarily. I don't like to look really eager and to be honest, like, I have to put on a fake version of myself to do that. And I don't know how to just be my, you know, like, yeah, just say myself.
- [22:10]
Claire Wasserman
So the people that I work with, I'm never surprised when it's somebody who is struggling to charge or charge more and they also struggle to brag about themselves or to sell themselves. I think it's the different side of the same coin because it's about taking up space, right? So when you receive money, you are taking from someone else. And if you have grown up believing that more for me is less for you and you are service oriented or you're in a creative field, which society often can make those of us in creative fields feel like we shouldn't have to charge. I mean, listen, so many People stream music for free, right? Like, it's very difficult now to say, well, actually you have to pay for my writing or my art, right? So this is not in your head. There are forces around us that are literally telling us, do not charge more. Taking up space is receiving money or putting ourselves out there saying, I am great. Honestly, we need to completely look at this in a different way. Otherwise we will always struggle. So I'm going to give you a suggestion for a different view and you tell me how you feel about this, okay? And by the way, this is coming from a very personal place, since also the people I coach, I want to give everything away for free. They come to me, they're suffering with money. And here I am going, can you pay me more? I mean, it feels totally wrong. But here's what I have found. The act of paying me, or in your case, the act of paying you, It's. It's not about you at all. Actually, the very act of handing you money is an act of me investing in myself. Think about that for a second. So a person comes to you with a project. I know you do, like, video work, you do marketing work, right? So they believe in what they do, right? They just need help getting the word out there. When they pay you to help them get the word out there, again, they're not really paying you. They're investing in their own business. They're investing in their own brand. And so when they don't spend much money, it's a symbolic way of saying, I don't really believe that much in my brand. Like, it can feel good to spend money. Right. I've also found that with my own clients, by the way, you know, if I'm coaching somebody, oftentimes they will do way more work if they pay more money, because they're like, I gotta step up to the plate. You know, I gotta make my a thousand dollars worth it, versus a hundred dollars or ten dollars. Okay? But you're not gonna believe this until you think about how you have done this actually in your life. So let's think about brands or businesses or people, services that we have paid for that we felt really damn good paying. By the way, this is assuming that you are charging something that is fair. Now, that can be a little bit tricky, right? So to me, what's fair is you've done really good market research, which sometimes is harder depending on the field that you're in. You know, for example, if you're a speaker, you know, a lot of times people aren't talking about how much. They charge for their speaking gigs or they charge for brand deals. Right? So you're really going to need to talk to people and say, are you willing to share a ballpark of how much you charge? And the reason asking is so that we're not under cutting each other because if we all try to charge less than our counterparts, that becomes a race to the bottom and nobody wins. We're all going to go out of business because of it. So do make sure you are, you know, talking to other people about the rate. You will pick a rate that is mid or a little bit higher than mid. And that's just a suggestion for you. That's not my suggestion to everybody. Depending on the kind of brand you have, perhaps you need to be charging the top. You know, that's. You want to be a luxury brand for somebody else. They go, no, I'm not really a luxury brand. I'm a, you know, I really want to help people. We're going to get into that because you are going to be giving things away for free and that's going to be part of your pipeline. That's going to be part of the marketing. Free is marketing. Product is paid. By the way, when people give you money, they're investing in themselves, but also they might be investing in other people. Meaning you could have a one for one. Not necessarily. But think about like the TOMS model, right back in the day where you would buy a pair of shoes or socks and then they would gift another pair to somebody else.
- [26:31]
Danielle
Right?
- [26:31]
Claire Wasserman
Case you could do scholarships. I don't think one for one is appropriate because you do not have the literal luxury to do that. But it would be, hey, when you invest in my business, you actually are staying in my ability to serve people who cannot pay. Okay, so not only is somebody going to give you money to help themselves, they're also going to be giving you money because it just feels good. There's going to be a sort of philanthropic aspect to this. So let's just recap for a second though. What are you going to charge? Please do not undercharge. For both your sake, my sake, and also your customer's sake. It's got to be mid or a little bit higher. That will make them feel better. Trust me, it'll make them feel better. However, you'll work with them on a payment plan if you need to. So not the pay what you want model. I've tried it. It doesn't work. It also doesn't make people feel safe. You want to confidently say, I charge this amount Actually, I'll give you a good example. I have somebody who's contemplating signing on for a succession series with me, right? And that's a little bit of money. And she said to me that she was interviewing other coaches and I asked her, do you feel comfortable sharing with me where do I fall in pricing? And she said, you're mid. You're like mid priced and just a little bit above mid. And I was like, that's exactly what I wanted to be. I don't want to be the most expensive. That just isn't right. That's not my brand. I'm not a luxury brand. I'm of the people. Right? But if she said low, I would be mortified. And I actually would love for you to tell me that too. If, if I were talking to you and also talking to some other, you know, creative agencies, tell me, Danielle, how would that make you feel?
- [28:15]
Nicole Lapin
Hold onto your wallets. Money Rehab will be right back. And now for some more Money Rehab.
- [28:28]
Danielle
Yeah, that's actually I want to avoid that too because I have been the cheap pick before and I don't want to be the cheap pick again because I know how I get treated when I am that I need to do some more market research around pricing just because there's so many different like possibilities of offerings. And I have not figured that out yet. And so whatever way I shake it, I do want to just double check that. But I don't want to be low. And I also the high I am uncomfortable with for multiple reasons, including the ones that you said.
- [29:03]
Claire Wasserman
Yes. So let's get into pipeline for a second here because this is where you're going to be driving traffic to your product and at the same time giving things away for free. So making you feel really good and turning on its head. The experience you're currently having, which is. I hate that I have to talk about myself. However, before we get into it, I actually want to circle back to a question I posed a little bit earlier. Can you think of a product that you pay for that you really love? Whether it was a one time payment, a subscription, a service where it was not cheap and you were like, hell yeah, I got my value and more and I happily paid for it. If you don't have anything coming to mind, that's okay. But I think it's a really good question that you and everybody watching and listening should to take a second because you're not going to believe what I'm saying unless you realize that you have actually participated in this. You have enjoyed handing over Your money at some time in your life.
- [29:59]
Danielle
Yes, absolutely. When you said that like, that did something did click in me. I do have a question though, because I am someone who, I'm, I'm a very proud person in certain ways. And one of those ways is even when I was paying full price and not like taking any discounts on things, and that is one thing that, like, I don't know what that is within me. I should probably talk to my therapist about that at some point. But I just do not ever want to be seen as weak or fragile or powerless or also like incapable in that way. Like unable to pay the full price. And I think maybe because I wanted people to respect me without demanding it, I have wanted to pay their full price or more. And sometimes I will do that. Like, sometimes I will be obnoxious and like pay more always. Like, I think it's an ego thing. Like, I just don't know why I do that.
- [30:55]
Claire Wasserman
Yeah, I think that sounds similar to the resistance to playing the game. I don't know. It's capitalism, right? Things are discounted. It's short term loss for long term gain. So there'll be supermarkets that have what's called a loss leader, where they will take certain items like eggs and charge very little for them or, or Costco does this with their hot dogs or rotisserie chicken. They're charged very little, so they lose money on it. But they get you in the store. They get you in the store and you eventually buy more. Same thing for all of us who have what's called lead magnets, right? We give away free things on the Internet so that you give us your email and then we can eventually upsell you, develop a relationship and trust. And all of a sudden you're being coached by me for thousands of dollars. Okay, so this is part of the game. So when you have resistance to paying a discounted price or whatever, I really think it's related to your resistance to all of it. You know, different side of the same coin. I think you contradicted yourself also because in the beginning it sounded like you were pretty proud of having been a recipient of social benefits, which by the way, my family, we went into over $3 million of medical debt because of my son who has congenital heart defects. And you know, we've been on food stamps as well, and thank God for it, but it sounded like you were okay with receiving help in that aspect. But you're sort of picking and choosing other areas, life and money, where you go, okay, well, not that, but I'll take this. Does that sound true? Did I get that right?
- [32:25]
Danielle
I don't know. That's a good question. I feel like I would need to dig into that. Yeah, I think that I am an idealist to my own detriment. I know that I would have had millions of dollars in medical debt, but on principle, I support stuff. But I. I guess that is a contradiction.
- [32:42]
Claire Wasserman
Keep in mind, whenever you're paying for something, and that includes taxes, it's going into a system, into like an economic riptide that is coming out the other end to either you or to somebody else. So, for example, if I can't get people to give me good money, then I can't continue to give free things and help people.
- [33:06]
Danielle
Right.
- [33:07]
Claire Wasserman
So the act of taking money from some people allows me to keep serving others. They're all connected. So we really have to learn to let go of this binary view of more for me is less for you. It literally does not work like that. Can we figure out a way. And we'll get into this now with. With the pipeline of how you're putting yourself out there and also the process. So how you're managing your time. Well, because you know time and is money how you can do it in a way where, again, it's not about in a given day or in one client do you feel good, but it's in a week, in a month, in a quarter, in a year. What does balance look like in a way more holistic version, hopefully that made some sense. Let's talk about putting yourself out there, though, in this pipeline. So getting people to know about. Eventually we will figure out in another episode maybe of just exactly what the product is in the product market. Fit. And maybe there's three things you offer and they are. Each one is, you know, a different kind of tier. You've got your diy, you've got your mid tier, and then you've got your sort of pricier one. But we need to get more people to know about you. Because if you're only pitching to, let's say, 10 people, well, chances are you close one or nothing. We need 100 people. We need a thousand people to know about you. You've almost got to be spending more time putting yourself out there than you do even doing the work. That probably frustrates you. Or people listening, they go, I just want to do the work. I don't want to have to be applying for jobs or I don't want to have to be promoting my business. Just let me do the work. Sorry, guys. It's not how it goes. It is about who has oftentimes the loudest megaphone. But you've got to find a way to do it where it feels really good. So I'm going to share with you how I'm doing it and then you tell me what resonates in your scenario. Okay. What I love to do is to share lessons from my life. Lessons I've seen in running ladies get paid. So the 55, 000 people over exchanging 4 million messages, like, I've got a very interesting bird's eye view of where women are at in their relationship with money and work. I want to share, I want to teach. And I'm like, just give me a microphone. And I'm like trying to make products. People aren't buying it. And it's taken me a long time. I'm a perfectionist. And then I realized, oh my gosh, social media, all I have to do is get on literally my phone and I can reach millions of people and just give away everything for free as long as there is a tight call to action. And I make it extremely easy for people to take the next step with me. And the next step, by the way, is not giving me money because this is a relationship of trust and credibility that we need to develop with them. So they're going to be receiving, you know, a downloadable guide or a five day email series, something again that takes everything I'm doing on social media, gives them a little bit more and I give it to them for free in exchange. I get their email address. Now they're in my pipeline and I do oftentimes like free Sunday sessions or I was doing job seeker support groups and just constantly putting myself out there doing things for free, but being very, very wary of how much time and energy it was taking and also ensuring that I could repurpose that free content. So if I'm recording it, guess what? It becomes a transcript which can become a blog post or a newsletter so that you don't feel so scattered. When I do free things, somehow that's different or separate from my paid things. No, it's all the same. And if you're wondering, well, gosh, if I give everything away for free, why would anybody pay me? Let me share a quick example. Somebody in my community said to me that there's a person she follows on LinkedIn and he posts a lot. And she was like, you know what? I'm gonna copy and paste literally every post that he puts on LinkedIn. I'm gonna put in a Google document. He's he helps with job seeking candidates. She goes, I'm gonna teach myself off of all of his posts. She did that for a week. And then she said, screw it, I'm gonna pay him to teach me and to help me. Because time is money. So that's why somebody will pay you. Because when they work with you, you are going to save them time, which is saving them money. You're just going to get them where they want to go faster and also more personalized. But I really gotta urge you, don't look at the free as something separate. Otherwise you're gonna go, ugh, it's selling. It's like, no, it's doing what you were gonna do anyway. We can get creative about it too, right? So maybe you decide, okay, once a week you do a live with another creator and you're talking about, you know, projects that you love doing and what you found difficult about it and what you learned. Like, it's not just putting yourself online and seeing what happens. Like, you know, let, let's get a little bit strategic about it. But I think this separation that we see selling as different than ourselves or different from our ultimate product is a problem. It's a problem both for ourselves and our motivation. We're going to be like, ugh, I don't want to do this. But it's also a problem for the audience because they don't want to be sold to either. They're like, just give me value. Tell me from that ramble. Questions, thoughts, feelings, what's resonating? Where do you find resistance? And if my example lends itself to you, and if so, how.
- [38:19]
Danielle
Yeah, it does blend itself. I have got some internal, like, work to do around social media and putting myself out there, clearly, because it's very uncomfortable for me, as I know it is for a lot of people.
- [38:32]
Claire Wasserman
Let's dig into that for a second. I know we don't have too much time, but I always have to get to a place where you're not just like, okay, I have homework. But you're actually kind of jazzed about the homework coming from somebody who hated school over here. So tell me when I say putting your content out there for free, you're giving people things of value, things you're excited about, and your first reaction is, feels like I'm being exposed somehow.
- [38:54]
Danielle
So think that it feels like, so existential, but, like, I don't know, like, what version of myself, like, is the one that I'm supposed to be putting out there? Because the one that is like, holistically Me isn't like, I also am a writer and I also love like writing weird shit. And I just want to be able to be myself. And it's not like this polished, like, you know, business forward image and I don't know how to be my weird little self. And also what version of myself people pay me to pay me for. I don't know what I'm saying. Do you know what I'm saying?
- [39:37]
Claire Wasserman
I absolutely know what you're saying. And it's so funny because the answer is actually to be yourself. But I think it is cherry picking a little bit, right? Like, I'm not necessarily gonna get on live and tell you all. Well, no, actually I do. I do tell people I have breakdowns all the time. What am I talking about? Okay, right. Let me tell you though. The danger of being perfect on social, the danger of putting up a certain veneer. There's a lot of issues with this. Number one, it's not sustainable because it's taking energy to pretzel yourself. Okay? So it's not good for you. It's also not good for your audience because it makes them feel bad about themselves. That's just like the act of giving you money is good. Like, I want to give you money because it makes me feel like I am getting more for it. I am investing in my business. Same thing when I watch your content. If you come out here and you're like, like I'm killing it or everything's buttoned up. Well, I'm messy. I'm, you know, confused in my business, right? So I think the key that you're looking for here is how do you carry all of it? How do you be both your authentic, messy, questioning, anti capitalist, whatever self and also be professional? Which I think goes back to the overarching theme of today, which is how do we play the game, our style, our way? And it is possible, I mean, we have to map it out a little bit here. So you might say, okay, in one column, what does being authentic mean? Or messy? And then write out a whole bunch of both, like topics you would share if you were just being your, your quote, authentic self, maybe formats in which you would share it. Right? Just go on a whole bender pretending that you felt comfortable totally live streaming your life. Then in the next column, what do you imagine being the buttoned up business girl boss version, the one that you feel pressure to pretzel yourself into, make a column for? Okay, well, what would be the topics or the way in which I express myself, what would that look, look like?
- [41:44]
Danielle
Right.
- [41:46]
Claire Wasserman
And then you have to find a third way, which I do believe is possible. That third way of how do I blend the two? You might make some rules for yourself, which are certain topics are off limits right now. Yeah, like, I share pretty much everything in my life, and that's how I grew my newsletter to 50, 000 people. But you better believe my wife is like, you are absolutely not talking about our sex life. Yeah, there are some rules. Last night I posted I have anxiety. I was curling my hair. And yeah, I don't know if we want to include this in the podcast. I think I'm okay with it. But, like, I smoke some pot because, like, I live in California and it's allowed. And I posted on Instagram, I said, wow, this is the best way to simultaneously stop my anxiety and come up with amazing ideas. Because the act of curling my hair while stone, you have to be so, so focused to not hurt yourself. And in that focus, I kind of created a state of flow. Since I posted that, I've been stressed because that felt too exposed for me, even though I'm not embarrassed that I have, you know, used marijuana. Like, there's still a stigma. My mom's gonna see this. You know, again, I've decided to share it. And again, I'm okay with this being included in the final cut of this podcast. But the point is, it's a line that will move, right? It will. It's a line that will move and change because you are moving and changing. You just need to figure out, though, what as like a foundation for your business. The way you talk about your business, the way you conduct your business, the way you price your business foundationally, what is aligned with your values. So how you know you're not going to price the highest nor the lowest, you're going to have a philanthropic aspect to what you do. You're going to look at marketing as all the free content so you never have to feel bad about charging for people. You put yourself out there. It will be your authentic self. However, a non raw self. Right? So it's like, it's like if we're going to be girly about it, it's like if you decide, I'm never going to wear makeup on social media, but I'm going to throw some lipstick on. That's how I see it. And then it's a muscle that you develop over time. Just like in negotiating with people, you get better at it, but also it gets harder because the stakes get higher. So just, you know, if something's working for you this quarter, I want you to reevaluate it and say, okay, so based off of all the free content that I'm putting out there and how I'm expressing myself, you know, where we want to make some tweaks, where did I feel too exposed? But also where did energetically feel like I had to become another person? And that's just not right. Just keep pushing yourself to say, am I looking at this in too much of a binary? Is this black and white? That's most of us, by the way. We're wired oftentimes to see things in black and white. Right. There's either danger or safe. No. That's why we're constantly frustrated, because life is in the gray and life is in the contradiction that many things are true at once. So when you do find yourself up against a wall in some aspect of your business, your money, your life, etc, just, I would say the first thing to ask yourself really, is, is there another way to look at this? Like, am I really seeing it as a zero sum game here? You know, is it possible to find another way in? On that note, I want to thank you so much for being here, and I'm honored to, you know, get a chance to coach you, but also do it on Money Rehab. You know, thanks to Nicole Lapin for giving me the opportunity to guest host while she's away on maternity leave. And just know that hopefully I helped you today, Danielle, but in sharing your story, we certainly helped other people, hopefully gain, you know, some next steps, but also just recognize that they're not alone. We're all going through this. And just because I'm the one sitting over here, quote, coaching you, girl, I'm coaching myself, but I'm right in it with you. Is there anything you want to share as we close up?
- [45:41]
Danielle
No, I just appreciate you. Thank you for sharing all that. And there's some things that you said that I. I want to sit with a little bit more. Especially one of the things that you were saying about more for me isn't less for them. And that's something that I think I have a lot to unpack in that regard. And I feel like that was a lot of the things that we discussed. So I really appreciate your insight and your time.
- [46:03]
Claire Wasserman
Yeah. And by the way, you know, money is just a portal. You know, it's symbolic too. Right. So if you find that you're looking at money in a certain way, I would challenge you to say, okay, am I looking at other things also in that way? So whether it's Your, you know, interpersonal relationships, romantic relationships, the relationship you have with yourself, with your time, with your kids, whatever. You know, again, more for me is less for you. Is that always true? Could there be more for me is more for you? I know that this stuff is really true. I started my career in first independent film production, so raising money for a foreign film. And then I went to non profit fundraising. Giving feels good. Also, people were getting their name on the credit which they then leveraged for other projects. It was networking. People don't do things just solely out of the goodness of their heart. They really are getting things for it. So just challenge yourself. More for me is more for you. By the way, what an abundant way to go through life, right? That like 1 plus 1 equals 11. Life can be way bigger and more expansive than I think we give ourselves credit for. And a lot of it has to do with feeling proud, like it's not just a necessary evil to charge this amount or to put ourselves out there. But I really do believe we can get to a place where every time that we say our price point or apply for the job or market ourselves, we're letting another person out there know that we've got them, right? We can solve their problem. We recognize them. They're not alone. We give them an opportunity to participate, right? Like if you have an idea and now they get to participate in your idea and it changes their life. Okay, More for me is more for you. On that note, thank you, Danielle, and thank you to all for watching and listening. We'll see you next time.
- [47:49]
Nicole Lapin
Money Rehab is a production of Money News Network. I'm your host, Nicole Lapin. Money Rehab's executive producer is Morgan Lavoy. Our researcher is Emily Holmes. Do you need some Money Rehab? And let's be honest, we all do. So email us your money questions moneyrehaboneynewsnetwork.com to potentially have your questions answered on the show or even have a one on one intervention with me. And follow us on Instagram @moneynews and TikTok MoneyNews Network for exclusive video content. And lastly, thank you. No, seriously, thank you for listening and for investing in yourself, which is the most important investment you can make.