Ray Dalio (Part 2): Principles of Happiness, Grief, and What Money Can’t Buy

Summary

Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin: Episode Summary

Title: Ray Dalio (Part 2): Principles of Happiness, Grief, and What Money Can’t Buy
Host: Nicole Lapin
Guest: Ray Dalio
Release Date: May 23, 2025

In the intriguing second part of her conversation with Ray Dalio, host Nicole Lapin ventures beyond the standard financial discourse to explore deeper, more personal themes such as happiness, grief, and the limitations of monetary wealth. This episode provides a profound look into how even immense financial success cannot insulate one from life's most challenging emotional experiences.

---

1. The Interplay Between Money and Happiness

Nicole Lapin starts the dialogue by addressing a fundamental question: “Does money bring you happiness?”

At [03:32], Ray Dalio responds thoughtfully:

“Money brings you all of that. It can bring you health, it can bring you many, many wonderful things.”

Dalio elaborates that money, when used correctly, offers security, freedom of choice, and the means to realize one's dreams. He distinguishes between money used for genuine needs versus its use for status or superficial displays, which he deems unhealthy.

He further emphasizes that happiness is more deeply rooted in community and meaningful relationships than in wealth:

“The greatest source of happiness in life across societies is community. Do you have a sense of community?” [05:00]

Dalio underscores that strong community ties and meaningful relationships are paramount for well-being, surpassing the satisfaction derived from financial abundance.

---

2. Personal Tragedy and Navigating Grief

The conversation takes a heartfelt turn as Nicole inquires about personal pain despite Dalio's financial success. At [08:43], Dalio shares a deeply personal experience:

“The worst moment of my life and it has nothing to do with money,” referring to the loss of his oldest son in 2020.

Dalio discusses his coping mechanisms, particularly his long-standing practice of Transcendental Meditation:

“There's nothing that I can pass to your listeners that would be more valuable, and there's nothing that I would attribute my success to more than Transcendental Meditation.” [09:09]

He explains how meditation and journaling helped him process grief, embracing the philosophy:

“Pain plus reflection equals progress.” [07:00]

Dalio shares how these practices allowed him to find perspective, emphasizing the importance of appreciating what one has and nurturing meaningful relationships in the aftermath of loss.

---

3. Principles for Life and Building a Legacy

Dalio articulates his vision for a meaningful legacy, focusing not just on memories but on imparting valuable principles to others. At [18:38], he states:

“Legacy is gift to principles.”

He highlights the global impact of his books, such as "Principles: Life and Work," which have influenced millions across various countries. Dalio believes that sharing principles provides others with frameworks for personal and professional success:

“By having learned a bunch of them that people can consider, I think that that's my most valuable thing to give.” [18:38]

He stresses the importance of having a principled approach to life, which he believes is essential for navigating the inevitable turbulence and challenges that come with success and personal endeavors.

---

4. Investment Advice and Economic Insights

Dalio offers pragmatic advice on investment strategies, cautioning against impulsive reactions to market news. At [20:47], he advises:

“Don't be reactive... have a game plan that you know how it would have worked in the past, and then recognizing that there's ups and downs and sticking with that game plan is most important.”

He further warns listeners about the difficulty of beating the market:

“Investing is a zero sum game, so competing in the markets is more difficult than competing in the Olympics.” [21:21]

Dalio encourages humility in investing, suggesting that individuals should view investing as a learning process rather than an attempt to outsmart the market. He emphasizes the importance of diversification and maintaining a disciplined approach to investment.

---

5. Final Takeaways and Guiding Principles

In concluding the episode, Dalio reiterates his foundational philosophy that:

“Pain plus reflection equals progress.” [20:11]

He encourages listeners to evolve through life's challenges by adhering to solid principles and maintaining diversified investments. His emphasis on reflective practices and principled living serves as a guide for those seeking to balance financial success with personal fulfillment.

---

Notable Quotes

• Ray Dalio at [03:32]:
  “Money brings you all of that. It can bring you health, it can bring you many, many wonderful things.”

• Ray Dalio at [05:00]:
  “The greatest source of happiness in life across societies is community. Do you have a sense of community?”

• Ray Dalio at [09:09]:
  “There's nothing that I can pass to your listeners that would be more valuable, and there's nothing that I would attribute my success to more than Transcendental Meditation.”

• Ray Dalio at [18:38]:
  “Legacy is gift to principles.”

• Ray Dalio at [20:47]:
  “Don't be reactive... have a game plan that you know how it would have worked in the past, and then recognizing that there's ups and downs and sticking with that game plan is most important.”

---

Conclusion

In this enlightening episode of Money Rehab, Nicole Lapin and Ray Dalio delve into the nuanced relationship between wealth and personal fulfillment. Dalio’s candid discussions about his personal losses and the principles that guide his life offer listeners valuable insights into managing both financial and emotional well-being. By emphasizing the importance of community, reflective practices, and a principled approach to both life and investing, Dalio provides a holistic perspective that transcends traditional financial advice. This episode serves as a compelling reminder that true happiness and success are deeply intertwined with personal growth and meaningful relationships.

Transcript

[American Express Representative]

When you're with Amex Business Platinum, you have the card that helps businesses dream bigger, get a flexible spending limit that adapts with your business, and earn 1.5 times Membership Rewards points on select business purchases so you can stock up on what you need to take your business further and get rewarded for growing bigger. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Not all purchases will be approved. Terms apply. Learn [e-mail] AmExBusiness one of the things.

[Nicole Lapin]

I really love about my work is.

The fact that I can do it from anywhere. And getting a change of scenery can really help inspire creativity in my work and has once or twice or maybe more cured my writer's block. Being away for work, for fun, or for both is a perfect opportunity to.

Host your space on Airbnb.

That way, not only do you get to experience a new part of the world, but you're also making money while you're doing it. And if you think hosting is overwhelming, I have a solve for you. With Airbnb's co host network, it is easier than ever before to host. Now you can hire hire a high quality local co host to take care of your home and your guests. They can do everything from creating your listing to managing reservations to messaging guests and providing on site support. They can even help with design and styling. Also, by hosting on Airbnb, you can become part of another family story, maybe even their hero. As you know, I stayed in an Airbnb for months when my house burned down and I truly do not know what I would have done otherwise. So if you've got a secondary property or an extended trip coming up and you need a little help hosting while you're away, you could hire a co host to do the work for you. Find a co [e-mail] host. I'm Nicole Lapin, the only financial expert. You don't need a dictionary to understand it's time for some money rehab. If you caught the first part of my conversation with the one, the only Ray Dalio, you know we went deep into the economy, inflation, debt cycles, and how to brace your portfolio for whatever comes next. It was classic Dalio big ideas, tons of data, all grounded in decades of market experience. But in part two, we get versatile. Ray may have built the world's biggest hedge fund and coined concepts like the All Weather portfolio, but today we go beyond the balance sheet. We talk about life, about happiness, about what money can and can't buy. He shares what he calls the worst moment of his life and it has nothing to do with money. For the first time in an interview, he opens up about the death of his oldest son in 2020. Ray also opens up about what he wants his legacy to be, how he hopes the next generation thinks about success, failure and meaning. These are the kinds of conversations that don't show up in earnings reports, but they matter just as much, if not more. And I have to say this is one of those rare interviews and I even have chills as I'm saying this that has stayed with me and will stay with me long after we stopped recording.

Let's get into it. And you have all the money in the world or access to all of the money in the world. We can agree on that. But you haven't been immune from. From pain. You and your family haven't been.

[Ray Dalio]

I have come. That's right. Every painful experience is a learning lesson. Yes.

[Nicole Lapin]

And so that brings us to the age old question, does money bring you happiness?

[Ray Dalio]

There's an amount of money that is good. What's that look? Why money? Why money has to do with. Is money something that brings your family security? It's freedom, freedom of choice. It's power to do the things you want to. You can have a dream and you can build it out. Money brings you all of that. It can bring you health, it can bring you many, many wonderful things. Okay. As it starts to be status or showing things off, insecurity, feeding it, that's not healthy. I believe that's not healthy. And I think people can get hung up on that, in my view. I think people really have to make sure it's not a reflection of an unhealthy state of mind or an unhealthy pursuit as much as it is the security, the freedom and then the ability to savor things. That's my own view about money. I'm into philanthropy. It gives me the power to be able to help and do things. These are wonderful things. So I'm not knocking money. It's a great, great, great thing. Okay. But really what is most fundamental, if you look at surveys done across countries of well being, happiness, the happiest societies are not the rich societies past the basic level of income so that you don't have poverty and all the pain that comes from absence of money. The greatest source of happiness in life across societies is community. Do you have a sense of community? People care about you, you care about them, you have fun together. These are the sources of well being. They're even the source of health. So that's what it looks like from my perspective of Having the benefit of having no money and then having an enormous amount of money. And I fortunately did it in the right order from nothing up rather than from up down. But I've had the whole range. And I really believe that what I'm saying is true. And I've gotten to meet all different kinds of people around the world. That's my perspective on money, which is also a perspective of success. So for me, success is having meaningful work and meaningful relationships that are truthful.

[Nicole Lapin]

Do you check how much money or net worth you have at this point, or doesn't matter.

[Ray Dalio]

I kind of know what it is.

[Nicole Lapin]

I don't, but not often. Yeah, once a quarter.

[Ray Dalio]

Well, as an investment manager, I'm playing my game. Let's say it's how many chips do you have at the poker table? And I'm playing that and so on.

[Nicole Lapin]

I think money can buy you five things, right? Money can buy you stuff, which doesn't bring happiness. It can buy you experiences, which does. It can buy your time back. It can buy you charity, the ability to give to charity, which probably does contribute to happiness. And it also gives you the ability to save, which I think people gain happiness from seeing them be able to take care of their family and continue to save and have that momentum.

[Ray Dalio]

I think our perspectives are similar on that, and that's why in talking with your audience, I think it's good that they reflect on that.

[Nicole Lapin]

You've been married for 40 years.

[Ray Dalio]

I think it's 47.

[Nicole Lapin]

Congratulations.

[Ray Dalio]

Thank you.

[Nicole Lapin]

What's this principle or the secret?

[Ray Dalio]

Any principle is not 100% true for everybody. Everybody has different tastes. So when I say that, I think in a general sense, and certainly for me, I think probably the most important decision you can make is who you spend your life with. There's an extraordinary relationship of long, close relationships. Wow. Are they valuable? And so your life partner, it's just so important to have the right life partner.

[Nicole Lapin]

Is it your biggest asset or liability?

[Ray Dalio]

Oh, the biggest joy and helping each other and fun with each other in all the different ways that you can have fun with each other. It's like old friends. There's nothing like it, you know? So anyway, I've been blessed with an amazing wife and family. And then life gives me difficulties. The worst thing that could have ever happened to me, that I would have rather died than have it, was the losing of my son. I lost a son. Life brings you these things. This is life, right? So that's the nature of life. And we were blessed in some ways. We have the worst. It Happens to everybody in their own ways. That's why I think taking a principled approach, like pain plus reflection equals progress, about learning about how reality works. This is most fundamental.

[Nicole Lapin]

Yeah. And money, unfortunately, can't immune you from those tragedies.

[Ray Dalio]

Well, that's reality. You have to accept reality, you have to understand reality, and you have to know how to best deal with reality. And those are principles.

[Nicole Lapin]

I could cry thinking about the news of your son in 2020 when I saw that as a new mother. I can't imagine or right. I'm so sorry, and thank you. I'm just curious how, at that point, changed your principles.

[Ray Dalio]

First of all, it's not just my feeling. It's my wife's feeling, it's his brother's feeling, all the love and so on. But what I did is, as we went through it, I meditate. I do Transcendental Meditation. I've done this since 1969, so I've done it forever. I would say, by the way, there's nothing that I can pass to your listeners that would be more valuable, and there's nothing that I would attribute my success to more than Transcendental Meditation. The answer to your question was there's this dichotomy between the emotional you and the intellectual you, and it becomes irreconcilable. It was the reflections and being open and articulating what I felt. And I've been very also open to help others who have gone through this, because there's ways of going through that, which is a whole other podcast. And that's why love and mutual support and also then starting to appreciate. Appreciate things more. You asked how it changed, boy, it helped to put things in perspective. Right. It reminds you because we can get hung up on the trivial things, and almost everything is trivial in relationship to that. So not only the feeling of the loss and the pain of that, but the feeling of the appreciation for what I have in the loving of my wife, the loving of my family, and what we have, we never appreciated it as much as a result of that. And then how do we nurture that and how do we make sure that that's such an important part of our lives while keeping, in a sense, him, my son, still with us in our own way.

[Nicole Lapin]

It's so kind of you to do that, to help others who might be going through this.

[Ray Dalio]

Oh, of course.

[Nicole Lapin]

What would you say to somebody who might be dealing with the unthinkable?

[Ray Dalio]

Although there's a process that I go through, each has to do it in their own way. There Will be first the shock. And it'll go through a phase. You're going to go through phases. Know that you're going to go through phases. What I did was my wife and I would have tea each morning and we had a picture of him. Because our tradition is to sit and have a cup of tea each morning. There he was. And then we would journal memories of him. This was after my family and I all went away. We want to just do whatever came naturally. I would recommend people doing whatever comes naturally. And, well, if you cry, if you want to, don't be thinking about the obligations and the protocols.

[Nicole Lapin]

Sounds like you spent time in nature, too.

[Ray Dalio]

We spent time in nature, all of these things. There are these phases. And then I think, most importantly, to keep him with me, keep him with us together. Have the pictures, think not to. Try to avoid thinking. And then with time, there's a bitter sweetness that what happens is first there's the bitterness, the great pain, and it's very difficult. And then there's a sweetness of that memory and so on. You will find that the sweetness will increase and the bitterness will decrease. The ache will always be there, but it'll come and go, depending on your attentions, what you're paying your attentions to. And then you will really start to enjoy and smile and think of the memories and so on, and then appreciate what you have.

[Nicole Lapin]

I'm sure there's not a day that goes by that you don't think about it.

[Ray Dalio]

Yes, but it ebbs and flows. There are some times and I see an empty seat and I imagine. And that's what it's like. And then my mind's elsewhere. I'm going to be going to the hundredth anniversary of the Grand Old Opry. And when I'm looking there at the concert and having fun with the people I love, okay, it will not be top of mind.

[Nicole Lapin]

So you learn how to dance with a limp.

[Ray Dalio]

Yeah, that's a good way of describing it.

[Nicole Lapin]

Hold onto your wallets. Money rehab will be right back.

[Chime Representative]

Your financial goals feel like a big leap away, but really, it's just a bunch of baby steps that together make a big difference. When you open a time checking account, you're one step closer to a better financial future. With no maintenance fees, fee, free overdraft, up to 200 bucks, or getting paid up to two days early. With direct deposit, making progress has never been easier. And if you ever want to access your pay before payday, you can use my pay to get up to 500 bucks of your pay before payday. With no mandatory fees or interest. Learn more at chime.com/mnn. You know, I hate fees, especially overdraft fees. I remember when I was in my 20s and I overdrafted for the first time with an old bank. I didn't even know that I had overdraft protection turned on. And that protection would mean a $35 fee on my $5 latte. But Chime allows you to overdraft up to 200 bucks with no fees because they get it. Make progress toward a better financial future with Chime. Open your account in just two minutes at Chime.com MNN that's Chime.com MNN Chime feels like progress. Banking services and debit card provided by the Bancorp Bank NA or Stride Bank NA members. FDIC Spot me Eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply. Fees apply at out of network ATMs. MyPay eligibility requirements apply. Credit limits range from 20 to $500. A $2 fee applies to get funds instantly. Chime checking account required. Go to chime.com disclosures for details.

[Nicole Lapin]

And now for some more money Rehab.

It sounds like your family is your biggest asset. Of course, in 2011, didn't you sign the giving pledge?

[Ray Dalio]

Yep.

[Nicole Lapin]

Your wife, Barbara. So half of your money will go to charity.

[Ray Dalio]

Yeah.

[Nicole Lapin]

And where is the rest going?

[Ray Dalio]

You know, probably significantly more than half my money will go to charity. Then. It's basically, I don't want my grandchildren to be in a position where they can't have an adequate education and inadequate health care and that sort of thing. So some money is being used for that. But most of it, I think, probably will go to those charities that will have better impact because I've been, wow. The world has been a wonderful place. The environment, the country, United States, a land of opportunity. And I see so many people. I empathize with so many people.

[Nicole Lapin]

And are you optimistic for the world that your grandkids are going to inherit?

[Ray Dalio]

There is going to be turbulence and fantastic opportunities and terrible twists. And that's an adventure. Okay. That's a challenge. It's like going into the jungle. And so I think it's the approach to life that matters more than anything. When people think bad things happen. Of course bad things happen. Good things happen to everybody a lot. It's your approach to that. So the most important thing, whether it's my grandchildren or whether it's your listeners or anybody out there, is this idea of principles and approach so that that adventure, life's adventurous journeys, that you are able to navigate it well. So I think that's the most important thing. Will it be? Yeah. The world is going to be turbulent. Life is hard. Being very successful is very hard. But hard means strength just the way it is. So you have to be strong, you have to be capable. You need to, for example, understand what your weaknesses are as well as your strengths. And then you can deal with your weaknesses. There's no problem. You can have somebody who is strong where you're weak help you. There are lots of ways of dealing with that. But there are so many people have ego barriers that stand in the way of them looking at their weaknesses. Because if you look at your weakness, you can deal with it. There's first order consequences and second order consequences for most things. And the second order consequences are usually the opposite of the first order consequences. Let's say, for example, the food that you most enjoy to eat is probably the least healthy for you, okay? The exercise that you want to do is not what you want to do and it's the most good for you. Okay? So there are a lot of these kind of tricks. It's like the, I think they call it the marshmallow test. For a kid, you have a choice. You have a marshmallow now or you could have two marshmallows in 10 minutes. What's your choice? Immediate gratification or getting stronger. And getting stronger requires challenge. Okay? That's why also pain plus reflection equals progress. And so when you start to realize that and you get that hardwired so it's almost instinctual to operate that way, then you get power, then you get stronger. That's just how reality works.

[Nicole Lapin]

Ray, what do you want your legacy to be?

[Ray Dalio]

I think legacy is gift, not memory. Memory is not important and I don't really want to do that. The gift I want to give, most importantly is principles to help people. Legacy is gift to principles. That's why I wrote these book. I wrote Principles of Life and work, which over 5 million people read in 36 languages in something like 125 countries. And people come up to me and they say, thank you. It has changed my life. Okay, That's a joy understanding, because I think that principles are ways of approaching life. And by having learned a bunch of them that people can consider, I think that that's my most valuable thing to give. In addition, I'm of course philanthropically to pass along whatever I have because as I say, I'll disappear. And then if I can pass along those things, that would be best. That would be my legacy. That would be my Dream.

[Nicole Lapin]

Thank you for giving us those gifts.

[Ray Dalio]

I hope they're helpful.

[Nicole Lapin]

We end our episodes by asking all of our guests for a tip that listeners can take straight to the bank. What's one that you would offer? You've given us so many gems, so many principles already. But is there something that we missed? There are so many indicators that come our way. Economic indicators. Is there something that is often overlooked?

[Ray Dalio]

Okay. For life, evolve well, keeping in mind pain plus reflection equals progress. And that you want principles for investment. Diversify well with a game plan that you know how it would have worked in the past and that you're comfortable with in the future. Don't be reactive. In other words, so many people, the news comes out, the markets move, and then they reactively take action.

[Nicole Lapin]

They say, this time is going to be different though.

[Ray Dalio]

Don't do that. Okay. News comes out, markets move and then take action is terrible. By instead having a game plan that you know how it would have worked in the past, and then recognizing that there's ups and downs and sticking with that game plan is most important.

[Nicole Lapin]

Are there big economic indicators that we should always pay attention to? It sounds like inflation and growth are your favorites.

[Ray Dalio]

Yes. But I think you have to ask yourself, are you going to beat the pros? Investing is a zero sum game, so competing in the markets is more difficult than competing in the Olympics. So I would say be humble. I put in hundreds of millions of dollars a year to try to beat the markets and others do, and that's what it takes.

[Nicole Lapin]

So don't compete with you.

[Ray Dalio]

Or if you do, play around with the money, an amount of money that you can learn from. So if you're playing the game and you do it over a period of time and you learn, you can do that. But don't be arrogant and lose your money. My first book, Principles of Life and Work, which captures my perspective, is I first want to establish that I'm a dumb shit. And whatever success I have had in life is more because of my knowing how to deal with what I don't know than anything I know. And that's true not only in diversification, but also in seeking the input of the smartest people in the world too. You know, that's what I did.

[Nicole Lapin]

Okay, thank you.

[Ray Dalio]

It works.

[Nicole Lapin]

Thank you, Ray, for giving us the 60 years of experience and knowledge today.

[Ray Dalio]

It's such a joy for me.

[Nicole Lapin]

Thank you for radical transparency. How was this interview?

[Ray Dalio]

Great.

[Nicole Lapin]

Yeah. I thought the second half was better than the first.

[Ray Dalio]

What do you think? So really, I can't tell. I Never can tell, really. I think what we have to do, if you can, is ask your audience.

[Nicole Lapin]

We will.

[Ray Dalio]

Oh, can you?

[Nicole Lapin]

Yeah, of course.

[Ray Dalio]

That's the feedback. And then we think about reflecting and improving.

[Nicole Lapin]

Please come back anytime.

[Ray Dalio]

My pleasure. I hope so.

[Nicole Lapin]

Thanks, Ray.

[Ray Dalio]

Thank you for having me.

[Nicole Lapin]

You're the best. And actually, when we were starting this network, one of my goals, I put you on the list. Oh, so this is such a joy.

[Ray Dalio]

Thank you.

[Nicole Lapin]

I wanted to make a million dollars of revenue, which was easier than getting you on the show.

[Ray Dalio]

I'm so glad. Isn't that fantastic?

[Nicole Lapin]

Money Rehab is a production of Money News Network. I'm your host, Nicole Lapin. Money Rehab's executive producer is Morgan Lavoy. Our researcher is Emily Holmes. Do you need some Money Rehab? And let's be honest, we all do. So email us your money questions, money rehaboneynewsnetwork.com to potentially have your questions answered on the show or even a one on one intervention with me. And follow us on Instagramoneynews and TikTokoneyNewsnetwork for exclusive video content. And lastly, thank you. No, seriously, thank you. Thank you for listening and for investing in yourself, which is the most important investment you can make. Sam.