"Should I Follow My Boss On Instagram?" and Other New Workplace Etiquette Conundrums

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Should I Follow My Boss On Instagram?" and Other New Workplace Etiquette Conundrums

Episode Released: December 20, 2024

Host: Morgan Lavoy (Guest Hosting for Nicole Lapin)
Guests: Jason Pfeiffer (Co-host of Help Wanted and Editor-in-Chief of Entrepreneur Magazine)
Podcast: Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin

---

Introduction to Workplace Etiquette in the Digital Age

In this episode of Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin, guest host Morgan Lavoy teams up with Jason Pfeiffer to delve into modern workplace etiquette dilemmas, particularly those arising from the integration of social media and remote work technologies like Zoom. The conversation navigates through questions that many professionals face in today’s interconnected and digital-centric work environments.

---

Should You Follow Your Boss on Instagram?

Morgan Lavoy initiates the discussion with a pertinent question: "Should you follow your boss on Instagram?"

Morgan Lavoy (05:02):
"I feel like it depends on, like, what kind of vibe you have at work. If it's a small company, yeah. If it's a big company, probably not."

Jason Pfeiffer shares his perspective:

Jason Pfeiffer (05:30):
"I think the real issue here is how much should you be thinking about people that you know professionally when you are posting on social media? And I think the answer to that is all the time."

He emphasizes the importance of maintaining professionalism online, regardless of whether your boss follows you. Pfeiffer advises treating your social media presence as if your boss does follow you, ensuring that all posts remain work-appropriate.

---

Following Employees on Social Media as a Boss

The conversation shifts to the reverse scenario: "If you are a boss, should you follow your employees on Instagram?"

Jason Pfeiffer (08:39):
"No. I actually make a very specific point of this. I do not follow colleagues unless we have hung out and that colleague relationship has turned, like, friendlike."

Pfeiffer explains that maintaining boundaries is crucial to prevent any perception of favoritism or invasion of privacy. By not following employees unless a personal friendship exists, managers can uphold a professional environment.

---

Zoom Meeting Etiquette

Eating During Zoom Calls

The trio tackles the etiquette of eating during virtual meetings.

Morgan Lavoy (11:39):
"Can you eat during a Zoom meeting?"

Jason Pfeiffer (12:18):
"If it's an all-hands meeting and casual enough, then take a bite off-camera and come back."

Pfeiffer prefers to mute and eat discreetly out of the camera frame to avoid distracting others. He shares his discomfort with watching others eat on camera, comparing it to disliking food-related shows like those featuring Guy Fieri.

Keeping Cameras On or Off

Morgan Lavoy (14:27):
"When is it appropriate to come to a zoom meeting with your camera turned off?"

Jason Pfeiffer (15:06):
"Camera off. We don't need to be on camera all day to see each other."

Pfeiffer advocates for turning cameras off to reduce unnecessary visual clutter, especially when meetings are numerous or lengthy. He highlights that camera usage should be based on the meeting's purpose and the established expectations within the team. For instance, trusted and reliable employees like his colleague Deepa can have cameras off without impacting team trust or productivity.

Typing and Taking Notes During Zoom Calls

Morgan Lavoy (17:37):
"Is it annoying to type during a Zoom call?"

Jason Pfeiffer (18:05):
"If you're taking notes, announce it. Transparency helps prevent misunderstandings about distractions like sexting or handling personal matters."

Pfeiffer recommends being upfront about taking notes to maintain trust and clarity. He also introduces tools like Fathom, an AI notetaker that transcribes and summarizes meetings, reducing the need for manual note-taking.

---

Managing Small Talk in Virtual Meetings

Morgan Lavoy (20:54):
"Nicole says yes, yes, 100%."
(Referring to whether Zoom composition and appearance matter)

The discussion transitions to handling small talk at the beginning of Zoom meetings, which Morgan finds often awkward and unproductive.

Jason Pfeiffer (22:15):
"Tell a story. Share something amusing or random to fill the void and move the meeting forward."

Pfeiffer suggests breaking the ice with brief, engaging stories or interesting background elements to make small talk more meaningful and less forced. This approach can set a comfortable tone without dragging out the introductory phase of meetings.

---

Treating Zoom as a Mirror

Morgan Lavoy (25:26):
"Do you treat Zoom as a mirror?"

Jason Pfeiffer (27:02):
"If you want to appear better in meetings, improve your video and audio quality. Invest in a good camera like a Logitech Brio and a quality microphone."

Pfeiffer emphasizes the importance of good audiovisual setup to enhance professionalism and engagement during virtual meetings. He shares his own setup improvements as a means to be taken more seriously in professional settings.

---

Final Thoughts on Modern Workplace Etiquette

As the episode wraps up, Morgan Lavoy reflects on how rapidly workplace norms have evolved with technology and the shift to remote work. The trio underscores the necessity of adapting to these changes thoughtfully to maintain professionalism and effective communication.

Morgan Lavoy (29:40):
"The crazy thing about all these questions is that they wouldn't have even been questions four years ago."

They conclude by encouraging listeners to navigate these new challenges with mindfulness and to seek further advice by reaching out through the podcast’s channels.

---

Notable Quotes

• Jason Pfeiffer (05:30):
  "You should probably act like your boss follows you regardless of what you do."

• Jason Pfeiffer (15:06):
  "Camera off. We don't need to be on camera all day to see each other."

• Jason Pfeiffer (18:05):
  "If you're taking notes, announce it. Transparency helps prevent misunderstandings."

• Jason Pfeiffer (22:15):
  "Tell a story. Share something amusing or random to fill the void and move the meeting forward."

• Jason Pfeiffer (27:02):
  "If you want to appear better in meetings, improve your video and audio quality."

---

This episode provides valuable insights into maintaining professionalism in the modern, digitally-driven workplace. By addressing common dilemmas and offering practical solutions, Morgan Lavoy and Jason Pfeiffer equip listeners with the tools to navigate workplace etiquette effectively.

Transcript

[Nicole Lapin]

I love hosting on Airbnb. It's a great way to bring in some extra cash, but I totally get it that it might sound overwhelming to start or even too complicated if, say you want to put your summer home in Maine on Airbnb but you live full time in San Francisco and you can't go to Maine every time you need to change sheets for your guests or something like that. If thoughts like these have been holding you back, I have great news for you. Airbnb has launched a Co Host Network which is a network of high quality local co hosts with Airbnb experience that can take care of your home and your guests. Co hosts can do what you don't have time for, like managing your reservations, messaging your guests, giving support at the property, or even create your listing for you. I always want to line up a reservation for my house when I'm traveling for work, but sometimes I just don't get around to it because getting ready to travel always feels like a scramble so I don't end up making time to make my house look guest friendly.

[Morgan Lavoy]

I guess that's the best way to put it.

[Nicole Lapin]

But I'm matching with a co host so I can still make that extra cash while also making it easy on myself. Find a co [e-mail] host. You know, there was this one time before I did my own money rehab when I checked my credit score and I realized I had no idea what it actually meant for my financial future. That's when it hit me. It was time to get serious about my money. We've all had that moment, right? Whether it's saving for something big or finally paying off debt, we all get to a point where we need to make some real money moves. That's where Chime comes in. Check Chime offers a checking account designed to help you take control of your finances with no monthly fees, no maintenance fees, and fee free overdraft up to $200. With spotmeine overdrafting and not having to worry about fees piling up, Chime's got you covered. Plus, Chime isn't just a financial tool, it's a community. You can get boosts from friends to temporarily increase your Spot Me limit. And when you help someone out with their own boost, they can return the favor. Friends helping friends make progress. It's that simple. So why not make your fall finances a little greener? Open your Chime account in just 2 [e-mail] MNN that's chime.com MNN as in money News Network. Chime feels like progress. Banking services and debit card provided by the Bancorp NA or Stride Bank NA members. FDIC SpotMe eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply. Boosts are available to eligible CHIME members enrolled in SpotMe and are subject to monthly limits. Terms and conditions apply. Go to chime.com disclosures for I'm Nicole Lapin, the only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to understand. It's time for some Money Rehab.

[Morgan Lavoy]

Hey, Money Rehabbers, it's Morgan who's been filling in for Nicole this week while Nicole is out on mat leave. And it has been so much fun guest hosting. Thank you so much for hanging out with me this week and. And maybe I'll see you again soon. Next week the guest host is going to be Nicole. Kind of Next week you're going to hear Nicole's favorite episodes of Help Wanted, the podcast that she co hosts with Jason Pfeiffer, editor in chief of Entrepreneur magazine. Help Wanted is like Money Rehab, but instead of answering all of your burning questions on money and personal finance, Help Wanted answers all of your burning questions on career and business, starting a company, excelling in a company, and everything in between. And so to close my week and start the next, I wanted to share an episode of Help Wanted that I was on. Enjoy and see you soon.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

This is Help Wanted, the show that makes your work work for you. I'm Jason Pfeiffer, editor in chief of.

[Nicole Lapin]

Entrepreneur magazine, and I'm money expert Nicole Lapin. On Tuesdays, Jason and I answer the helpline and help callers solve their work problems.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

And on Thursdays, I give you one way to improve your work and build a career or company you love.

[Nicole Lapin]

And it starts now.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Hello, Morgan.

[Morgan Lavoy]

Hello, Nicole and Jason. Jason and Nicole.

It's Nicole and Jason. You know that. Actually it's Jason and Nicole on the COVID art because Jason has more airtime on Help Wanted. So I'm like the sidekick.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Oh, I didn't even notice that. I will take it. What a big deal I am on this show. That's exciting. Morgan. Welcome to my show, where Nicole occasionally appears too.

[Morgan Lavoy]

Perfect. Happy to be here. Well, let's just start out by saying, you guys, it's 2024. It is a new era for a whole lot of things in our life. There's AI people are wearing baggy pants now. Like it's the 90s.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

My wife is very obsessed with that.

[Morgan Lavoy]

Yes.

Yeah. There's a whole lot of newness going on, and that has also translated into the workplace. And so today, what I'm going to do with both of you is take you through some workplace etiquette that people have some questions about. And I'd like for you both to weigh in and share what your thoughts are around these etiquette questions. Are you ready to rock?

[Jason Pfeiffer]

All right. I like it. It's like it's the digital age. Emily Post.

[Morgan Lavoy]

Exactly.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Great.

[Morgan Lavoy]

All right, here's the first question for you both. Should you follow your boss on Instagram?

Mm.

[Nicole Lapin]

Should you follow your boss on Instagram?

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Here's a question back to you. Has your boss followed you on Instagram?

[Morgan Lavoy]

Let me paint this scenario. Your boss has a private Instagram account.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Ah.

[Morgan Lavoy]

He or she has not followed you. Should you hit that follow button?

I feel like it depends on, like, what kind of vibe you have at work. Like, if it's a small company. Yeah. If it's a big company, probably not. But also, then it becomes you just open yourself up to more drama because, like, what if then he or she doesn't accept you and then you're, like, spinning about it and then they have to decide and it's just like, I don't know, if it's a big jugundo company, then I say no.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

I think that it depends upon the kind of relationship that you have with your boss. I. My boss's name is Bill at Entrepreneur. I thought I did not follow him, but I just checked Instagram and actually I do, and he follows me. So maybe it's not so bad because didn't even notice. But I think that the real issue here is how much should you be thinking about people that you know professionally when you are posting on social media? And I think the answer to that is all the time. Because even if your boss doesn't follow you, they could see something that you post. So you should probably act like your boss follows you regardless of what you do.

[Morgan Lavoy]

This is a funny offshoot of this. My boyfriend runs a company and they have about 50 employees, and they had a executive off site recently, and one of his employees said, like, oh, I'm doing more running on this.

[Nicole Lapin]

I think it's like a running app.

[Morgan Lavoy]

Or like the Apple Watch. Clearly, I'm not a runner, so I don't know where you can, like, follow everybody.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Yeah, yeah, you can follow. Right? There's like a whole ton of them.

[Morgan Lavoy]

Okay. You can follow your. You when you're working out. And, like, if you've reached these benchmarks.

[Nicole Lapin]

And he made a big deal about.

[Morgan Lavoy]

Like, oh, my God, I'm so excited I'm on this thing. We can connect on it or, like, follow each other. And he's like, cool, man, whatever. And so then he accepted him as part of it, but then the guy blocked him.

What?

[Jason Pfeiffer]

What?

[Morgan Lavoy]

Maybe he thought, oh, well, like, if I'm like, working out in the middle of work, like, is. Is you're gonna be annoyed? Or like, is he gonna see this now? And so he probably marinated on it and was like, nay, better not.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

That's fair. I think that the. The blocking is an aggressive move, so you'd want to be careful about that.

[Morgan Lavoy]

I mean, it was aggressive. It was like our pillow talk discussion of the other night.

So if you do follow your boss on Instagram, don't block them.

Well, I don't know if somebody's going to know if they block. If you blocked them. If it's like a smaller little sort of community or something.

[Nicole Lapin]

Yeah, don't be weird.

[Morgan Lavoy]

It just.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

It. It.

[Morgan Lavoy]

It opens up a whole Pandora's box of issues. So, like, I would say default to no.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

I would say default to no too. I would also say it shouldn't matter because the things that you're posting on social media are so work safe that anyone can see it. And this is why you should just create group chats with friends where you can really do all your shit talking.

[Morgan Lavoy]

Excellent. Okay, now, as bosses say, one of your employees has a public Instagram and has not followed you. Do you follow this employee on their public Instagram account?

[Jason Pfeiffer]

No. No. I actually make a very specific point of this. I do not follow colleagues unless we have, like, hung out and that colleague relationship has turned, like, friendlike. Otherwise, I leave it alone. I do not follow them. I don't want them thinking about me when they're posting stuff. I just. That is a. That is an intentional decision that I make.

[Morgan Lavoy]

So I didn't even realize this, but it came up in our group dinner when we were all in New York that Morgan was like, Nicole followed me after our first call, and I was like, I don't remember that, but cool. I didn't know that that was like a big deal or something notable. And I also don't really use Instagram, as you guys know, for, like, a lot of personal stuff. It's really work focused. And so, like, I have really close friends that I don't follow. And I don't. I just, like, kind of don't care.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Yeah.

[Morgan Lavoy]

You know, it means more to some people than it does to others, and it can create, like, a bunch of drama and issues around. Did they like your thing back and that?

[Jason Pfeiffer]

So yeah. Here's a non digital scenario that I expand into all of this stuff. When I became the boss, I realized that my presence at a after work happy hour took on a different meaning. I think that people might want to talk about me. They might want to talk about some annoying thing that I did. And that's their right. They should. And when I was there. Now they all have to defer to me in some way because his highness. But that's how I always feel like if anybody is above me in a hierarchy, I add this level of deferentialness to just general conversation just because I don't ever want them to be annoyed at me. Because that's the thing. Even if it's a social setting, an annoyance in a social setting can now translate to the work setting where that person now has some. They can lord over me something. Anyway, so I just thought, I now don't belong here after a certain amount of time. So maybe if everybody from the office goes to the bar, I don't belong here after the first drink and then I should leave. And I take that mentality and I apply it to everything with social media. If my presence makes you think twice about anything because I am no longer just a neutral party in your not a wallflower life. Yeah, then. Then I should remove myself. So that's why I don't follow people. That's why I don't like, go and like, like their stuff or whatever. I just, I remove myself because I understand that everything that I do or don't do is going to be perceived differently. And I just want to leave you alone and let you do your thing.

[Morgan Lavoy]

Thank you, your highness.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

You are welcome.

[Morgan Lavoy]

All right, moving on to Zoom. Everybody's new office. Got a lot of etiquette questions about Zoom.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Great.

[Morgan Lavoy]

First, can you eat during a Zoom meeting? Say it's in all hands.

How much are you eating? Is it a whole tortilla fajita situation? Is it a power bar? Like, I eat power bars a lot, but I'm not gonna bring out, you know, tikki masala and like tandoori bread.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

And like, I've done that. I've brought out Indian food and on. On work. Zooms. Here's my rule. I have a very specific rule for this. The rule is. So first of all, it depends on the kind of. Depends on the zoom. Right. If it's a zoo, if it's a client call or some important call.

[Nicole Lapin]

No, obviously she just said it was all hands.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Oh, all all hands. Well, sorry, we're just. I'm exploring all the options. So.

[Morgan Lavoy]

I'm hungry.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Can you tell eat on this call? That is fine. We give you permission. So if it's. If I need to be presenting totally professionally, obviously there's no food. If it is just internal and it's casual enough, then my rule is very specific. The rule is no food goes into my mouth on camera. I will lean off camera and take a bite and then come back on camera.

[Morgan Lavoy]

That's so weird. Why?

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Why? Because it's. I find it unpleasant to see. And this is, you know, like, whatever. You go out to dinner, it doesn't matter. But, like, I don't like watching cooking, like, tv, like, the food or whatever. I don't like seeing people eat. Why do you want to see people take food and put it in their mouth? That's not a pleasant thing to see.

[Morgan Lavoy]

It's not like what I'm going to choose if I'm, like, you know, looking on YouTube to, like, watch people masticating.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

But that's what, like, you watch Guy Fieri and it's just, like, him shoveling food into his mouth. I don't understand.

[Morgan Lavoy]

I don't mind it. Like, I don't. I'm not.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

I don't want it to.

[Morgan Lavoy]

It so much that I want to see you, like, go off camera like a weirdo. And, like, what are you doing over there? Are you vaping?

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Like, I get the food is, and I just lean out of frame and I take a bite, and then I come back in frame. This is. I've always. This is what I've been doing for years now.

[Morgan Lavoy]

Huh.

I guess if we've never noticed it, Nicole, maybe it's not that big of a deal.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Yeah, see, I've probably done it with you guys.

[Morgan Lavoy]

It's not. I mean, but also, I get it from Jason's perspective because it's always a topic of discussion when Jason eats.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

So that is true.

[Morgan Lavoy]

It's like he wants to avoid the I can't taste discussion. Like, inevitably, I'd be like, so, what.

[Nicole Lapin]

Does it taste like?

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Right. Nothing. Does it taste like anything? For context, for people who don't know, I literally, genuinely do a sense of taste. I cannot taste food. So people who know this ask me a lot of questions.

[Morgan Lavoy]

Regular listeners know.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Stick around. Help Wanted. We'll be right back. Welcome back to Help Wanted. Let's get to it.

[Morgan Lavoy]

When is it appropriate to come to a zoom meeting with your camera turned off?

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Oh, I have strong feelings about this, too.

[Morgan Lavoy]

When you're naked.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Yes. Or. Or when. Yeah. Or when, like, somebody else Is naked. Like my. Like my. I used to work from my bedroom and my wife would come in, you know, after the shower, and. And she would always be like, is the zoom off? And I would. I'd have to, you know, I'd have to turn it off. So I feel like companies. I feel like I'm going to deputize everyone listening to. Slowly, slowly. Try to drive your company culture towards camera off.

[Nicole Lapin]

What?

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Yes. Camera off. We don't need this. We don't need to be on camera all day to see each other.

[Morgan Lavoy]

What if we have a nice sign and a mic flag?

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Well, that's wonderful for. For filming, for making podcasts and stuff, but, like, you know, if you were just talking to colleagues all day, I just don't think that you need to see their faces. And whenever I have a meeting and I tell people, you know, we don't need an. You don't need another zoom meeting in your life. I am sure we can do camera off. They always say. Do you know what they say to me? They say the same thing every time. When I say, I'm sure you don't need another zoom meeting in your life. We can keep the cameras off. What do they say?

[Morgan Lavoy]

Thank you.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Thank you. They always say thank you. Thank you. Because they don't want it. Nobody wants it. I have found that Entrepreneur. There were a couple colleagues who just started showing up with their camera off. Shout out, Deepa. Deepa's cameras off and off. And it inspired others. It created permission for other people to keep their cameras off. And now most in a lot of meeting settings at Entrepreneur, cameras are all off. I think that is wonderful. Cameras off.

[Morgan Lavoy]

That is so surprising to me and the complete opposite of what I thought you were going to say, because, okay, so imagine a scenario in which you have somebody on your team who has kind of been slacking. Everybody's working remote. You have your suspicions that they don't work at all. They are actually a very prominent member of a bowling league, and they're bowling professionally and not doing their work. If they come to a meeting with their camera turned off, are you thinking that they're distracted, they're not focused, they're not actually engaged?

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Oh, I think it's entirely dependent upon the existing set of expectations. If this person works well and shows up and there's just never a question about whether they're working. Like. Deepa is a great example. Just a colleague of mine. Deepa. Deepa is the Swiss army knife of entrepreneur. She does everything. And there is never a question of whether or not. Deepa is on it. Deepa is always on it. And as a result, nobody cares if Deepa's camera is off because she's there. Everything will get done. There's just no worry. So in a way, you almost have to earn the camera off.

[Morgan Lavoy]

It's like Morgan is the Swiss army knife of Eminem. Keep your camera off, sister.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

We know you keep your camera off. You earned it.

[Morgan Lavoy]

Wow. But generally, I will not put my camera on if I'm naked. Nobody needs to see that. Although I have seen your children naked a lot. Jason, your two little boys. It's fine. Or if I'm driving, you guys know I'm a terrible driver. And so I keep my camera off.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Yeah. Safety first.

[Morgan Lavoy]

Safety first. Okay, next. Is it annoying to type during a zoom call? And therefore should you not do it? If you have to take notes for a zoom call, should you instead record the meeting or take notes in a notebook so that you're not clackety clacking?

[Jason Pfeiffer]

I have thoughts on this too. Oh, I didn't know. I have strong feelings on all these subjects.

[Morgan Lavoy]

I think Morgan does a nice job too, on our zooms where she announces that she's taking notes.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Yeah, that's a nice thing to do, is to be clear about it. And if you're taking notes and people know you're taking notes because you care about what is being discussed, then I don't. You know, it's like, whatever, there's a little clacking and that's fine. But a couple of things to say. Number one, you can always mute. I do that often. If someone's going to be talking for a few minutes and I'm typing, I will just mute myself and then type away. But also shout out. We are not getting any money for this, though we probably should. I have been using Fathom. Fathom is an AI notetaker. It joins my meetings and it is just go to. I think it's Fathom Video is the website and it is awesome. Like, it's just. It's just there in the background. It transcribes all your calls, but it also does this great job of ordering, organizing all the main points using AI and it's really impressive. So now I have it in all my calls and now I don't need to take as many notes.

[Morgan Lavoy]

That's cool. I mean, I guess, like, I will generally take notes or notes adjacent if something's being said in a meeting and it's like, oh, the follow up is you have to email or forward something. Like, I'LL do that. But who knows? I could be sexting. Could be, I don't know. So, so maybe it's worth announcing what I'm doing on my telephone. But also sometimes I'm not taking notes and I, I'm not sexting but I'm like dealing with the dog walker right now or you know, multitasking.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

I actually think that this is a really good move for anybody, which is to, to think about how other people perceive seeing you on the phone. So if you're in a meeting and you pick up your phone and you're taking notes, it's worth saying I'm sorry, I'm just taking notes. And that way people don't think that you're sexting or texting the dog walker.

[Morgan Lavoy]

What do you think of my own.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Usage when, like when you do it when we're recording or whatever? I always assume you're dealing with some, something and it's fine because you, you also again, this comes back to like what have you earned and what's the set expectations? I know that you're not going to pick up your phone and disappear into it in the middle of a conversation and therefore if you pick up the phone it's not like a problem. But, but when my 8 year old son Fenn picks up his iPad in the middle of a conversation, I know we have fully lost him to Roblox and therefore we gotta pull him back. But when I go and I give a talk like a keynote somewhere, oftentimes I'll see people on their phones and then they will come up to me afterwards and they will show me the notes and they'll, they'll be like, I, I'm sorry if it looked rude that I was on the phone. I was taking notes. Like they want, they want to show that and I think that that's a good instinct.

[Morgan Lavoy]

That's cool.

So that they're like, I wasn't on Roblox with Fen.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Yeah, exactly right. I hope not. We are really hoping that the other people that Fen is interacting with on roblox are also eight. But it's possible that they're 50 and at a convention listening to me give a keynote talk.

[Morgan Lavoy]

All right, this next one, I'm going to start with you Nicole, because I know this is a topic, Nicole, that you are very passionate about, which is small talk on Zoom. It's particularly terrible. There's always those first couple of minutes in a Zoom meeting where there's like fumbly small talk where someone asks like where in the world are you Based or how's the weather?

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Where you are doing anything fun this weekend?

[Morgan Lavoy]

Yeah, I hate it.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Hate it.

[Morgan Lavoy]

I don't like anything about it. I would rather be silent.

So say. Say you're on a Zoom call that has five attendees. You're waiting for the last two people. You sit in silence.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Really awkwardly. Just glare at each other.

[Morgan Lavoy]

No, because inevitably they're going to fucking ask me, where are you in the world? And like, oh, my God, you're in la. Is it a rating?

Yes.

Are you a meteorologist? Like, got it. So I will not sit in silence because someone will say some stupid small talk Zoom thing. But honestly, we had a recording earlier today, and Jason was late, and we were waiting for him, and I just.

And I fumbled through some small talks that I asked where they lived.

Morgan did the small talk.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Oh, man, I'm sorry about that.

[Morgan Lavoy]

Yeah, I was just like, I'm done. I'm good. I'm comfortable with myself and silence. I don't feel like I need to build a void. Morgan's face right now.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Because. Because you had to do all the small talk, Morgan, what was your question?

[Morgan Lavoy]

I'm sorry.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Do anything good this weekend?

[Morgan Lavoy]

I did the exact cliche thing that I was like, so are you. Do you guys live in New York? And they were like, nope, just outside of it in Jersey. And I was like, oh, okay.

Morgan's terrific at the small talk. And. And truly, I just want no part of it. I like big talk, but I don't know what that big talk is, because there is a balance between, like, super big talk. Like, you don't want to be like, hey, so tell me about your childhood trauma. Like, we're just waiting on this other person. Like, let's get deep. Like, there has to be a middle ground.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

All right, I'm going to give it to you. Here's the. Here's the solution. This is the solution. The solution is this. Tell a story. So this is what I always do is if. If I'm on a call, I share whatever the latest amusing or random thing is. I just start telling that to people. And the reason I do it is because I know that everyone on this call hates Zoom small talk, but also will feel obliged to do it unless somebody just fills the void. Somebody needs to fill the void. And I, you know, I know that I, for better or for worse, a thing I can do is fill a void. And so I'll just start talking. I'll just start. I'll just tell some random story until everyone's there, and then I will exit the story and we'll, we'll get on. And it's like, look, as long as you know that you're not it. Like you didn't just launch your own private version of the moth and people aren't there for your stories, so they don't want it any longer than necessary. But, like, you know, if you tell a story and then as soon as the last person shows up and the meeting is supposed to begin, like, wrap your story up and move into the thing, everyone will love you for it.

[Morgan Lavoy]

Yeah, no, I like that. I like a random story. The other day, I don't know if you were on the call, Morgan, but I got this little baby Mike flag that I'm very excited about for our social videos. And it had just arrived and I was like, oh, my God, I got this, like, baby Mike. I'm so excited about it. And it was like an interesting show and tell. So maybe now I'm just going to keep it here and like, pretend like I just got it all the time, just as my go to story. Because it's interesting, it's cute, it's not the weather.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Yeah. You know, I mean, another way you could, you could solve this for people is put interesting things in your background and then people will ask about them.

[Morgan Lavoy]

Oh, like a money roll. Yeah, let's do that.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Like a money roll. Yes. Nicole's got a giant money roll in behind her, like a physical statue of money. And. But then need something amusing to say about it. And I found this to be the case often when I go and call somebody and I was like, oh, I like your wall of hats. And then they'll be like, oh, thank you. And then they'll start telling me about the hats. And it, it fills whatever time is necessary. I usually have, depending on the angle I that I'm in my room, I either have a large old timey typewriter behind me, which was my grandma's, and so I have a whole couple things to say about that, or there are some guitars hanging on the wall that people ask me about and then I say some things about that. So have something starts a conversation, people will ask about it. But now it is your duty to have some at least mildly engaging thing to say about it that can last 60 to 120 seconds.

[Morgan Lavoy]

Yeah, I like it. Lean on the props, not the weather.

I like it.

We have one more that we can probably squeeze in and it's. Do you treat zoom as a mirror? Which I'm doing right now because I fucked up my hair color.

So I actually. That's a pet peeve of mine when people do that.

Can you tell, though? Cause I move my screen around, like, all around here, so you don't really know where my. Where my screen is. Is it a mirror? Is it not?

It's not about where you're looking on the thing. It's about how you're behaving in the thing. And so if you're, like, adjusting your hair, I'm like, I know that wherever you're looking, that's where your video is. It's not a pet peeve when you do it, because nothing that you could do could ever bother me. But when I'm on. Like, when I'm on a bigger meeting and I just. I see people do it. It is a pet peeve of mine.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

What percentage of time when you are on a zoom call, for example, you listening at home, what you don't see is that we are recording. We're all in a zoom together right now.

[Morgan Lavoy]

Me, and I'm looking at myself, and in horror.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Nicole's looking at herself, and has. Has checked her phone a couple times, and. But we're also recording locally, which is why the audio quality is better. Anyway, point is, on this call or on regular calls, what percentage of the time have you spent looking at yourself? Morgan, how much time have you spent looking at yourself instead of me and Nicole on this call?

[Morgan Lavoy]

I'd say 25%.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

I was gonna go a little higher for myself, like, maybe a third.

[Morgan Lavoy]

Like, 95%. My hair is really fucked up right now, and it is. It is bothering me, and I know what you guys look like, but it's not 95%. But it's more than 25%.

Nicole has her. Her video pinned, and ours aren't even visible.

Wait, Morgan, I don't care if the guest is in the waiting room. What the fuck is shrimping?

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Oh, yeah, that's. This is at the end, right? So there's a. There is a. Just for context, there is a. We're going to tape another episode after this one. There is a guest for that episode. That person is in the waiting room waiting for us. But also, Morgan had created a list of questions for this episode, and the shrimping was at the end. What the hell is shrimping?

[Morgan Lavoy]

Okay, shrimping is the. Is the word for when somebody joins a zoom interview like this.

All right, what are you doing? Explain.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Yeah, describe that.

[Morgan Lavoy]

I am sitting so low in my chair that only my head is visible, like I'm the Wizard of Oz.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Right? So this is. It is 95% background. It's just like your head at a terrible angle, which is what it always is. And just like as a little nub in the bottom middle of the. Everybody has seen that.

[Morgan Lavoy]

Everybody has seen that. And I think the question is how much does your composition on zoom really matter and make an impact on people? Like, do people really care and does it actually make a difference?

Nicole says yes, yes, 100%.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Yes, 100%.

[Morgan Lavoy]

This is why I'm like, Jason, change your fucking cord to make it the white cord that we got. You like every little thing.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Oh really? I forgot about the white cord.

[Morgan Lavoy]

Where's your sign? Where's your bunny roll?

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Right, yes. Yeah. Nicole is policing what is happening in my zoom. But yes, that is, I completely. You know, if you want to, if you want to appear better to people in meetings and probably even be taken more seriously, two things, improve the video and improve the audio. And both are very, very easy. I will tell you what I have again, I'm not getting paid anything for this. I have a Logitech Brio. It is a 4K camera. It's just, it just attaches to, sort of sits on top of my laptop. You plug it in. Instant giant improvement in video quality. It also handles lighting better. So like even if I'm in a semi dark room, it looks better. And then I have for, for like, for like important meetings that I take, I have a lav and it which is just the kind of little microphone that clips to your clothing and it plugs directly into my MacBook. It's called a Clip 2 Clip 2 something and, and it is great. It's so easy and it makes my audio much better and you get taken more seriously. So I think that's very important.

[Morgan Lavoy]

Sorry, I wasn't listening. I was checking out my hair. What.

The crazy thing about all these questions is that they wouldn't have even been questions four years ago. And so the new normal, the way that we work is changing so much with technology and in a post pandemic world. And so as listeners have questions about new work etiquette that they want to ask DM Nicole or Jason on Instagram, you can follow them. Just maybe don't follow your boss.

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Help Wanted is a production of Money News Network. Help Wanted is hosted by me, Jason.

[Nicole Lapin]

Pfeiffer and me, Nicole Lapin. Our executive producer is Morgan Lavoy. Do you want some help? Email our helpline@help wantedoneynewsnetwork.com for the chance to have some your questions answered on the show and follow us on Instagramoney News and TikTokoney News Network for exclusive content and to see our beautiful faces. Maybe a little dance?

[Jason Pfeiffer]

Oh, I didn't sign up for that.

[Nicole Lapin]

All right, well, talk to you soon. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart Choice. Make another smart choice with Auto Quote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy.