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Monsters Among Us
S20 Ep40: Doppelgängers, glimmerman, Bloody Mary and the mantis-man (Sn. 20 Ep. 40)
01:10:14
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- [00:01]
Caller
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- [00:25]
Kat
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- [01:53]
Derek Hayes
Good evening and welcome to Monsters Among Us. I'm your guide, Derek Hayes. Welcome back to another eerie installment. I've got quite a collection for you here tonight. It's so good, in fact, that I'm not going to waste any time in getting right to it. So from the state of Arkansas, please welcome Chris to the program.
- [02:21]
Caller
Hi, Derek. My name is Chris and I live in Arkansas. My story is a little short and sweet. A couple doppelgangers on the house where we lived for years and where I raised my two kids. My daughter, I think, is the culprit for all this because she still has things happening to her and she's well into her 20s. The first one happened to my husband. He got home and he was taking off his boots from work, and he saw me walk by to go into the kitchen and then into the basement. So he wanted to tell me something, and so he went down to the basement to look for me, and I was not there. I was in another part of the house and he found me. The look on his face was like, I know. I saw you go past. The second one happened to my daughter. She was upstairs playing and she heard me clearly say her name to come down the stairs. And she was like, nope, mom is not home. That is not her. And she did not go down the stairs. Thank you so much for all you do. Bye. Bye.
- [03:35]
Derek Hayes
Thanks, Chris, for calling. In two doppelganger sightings. If you collect one more, you get your fourth for free. And who wouldn't want a free doppelganger experience? I know it's easy for me to joke about, right, Chris? I'm not the one that had to experience it twice. Creepy stuff and we can't thank you enough for taking time to share it with us here tonight. Now, next up, we work our way to the Midwest. Please welcome Stacy to tonight's program.
- [04:14]
Caller
Hi, Derek. This is Stacey from northern Wisconsin. I used to live in Crest Lake, Illinois. And this is a story about something that happened in Bow Valley, Illinois. And it was probably the late 90s, and my friend Monty and I were driving through Bow Valley. We were going to head to the George Stickney Mansion, which is a well known pond. It was a house that was built with no corners, with a big history to it. And we were about a mile away from it going down Cherry Valley Road. And before we crossed what I think is Crystal Springs Road to continue on Cherry Valley Road, we were talking about how there was a local story that there was a phantom car seen on Cherry Valley Road that would just suddenly appear behind you and then disappear. And so we're kind of laughing at it. And I said something like, maybe we'll see it tonight, you know, and as I'm driving, all of a sudden these two headlights appear right behind me. And this is just a two lane road in the middle of the country. It wasn't a lot of traffic and it was night. And this appeared out of nowhere where there wasn't like a driveway that we passed or it just. There's no way this car just suddenly look upon us and the brights were on and it was moving back and forth like we were in the way, just driving really erratically. So I started to slow down and move over to the right, thinking, oh my God, this guy's driving like an a hole, you know. And no sooner did I move over that the lights disappeared and there was no car that passed us. There was no car behind us. And so I've always thought that was really interesting that we started talking about this phenomenon and not sure if we knew something was going to happen and start talking about it or if because we talked about it, we brought it to us. I don't know, but it made for a really fun night. Nothing happened when we got to the Sticky Mansion, but it was worthwhile going out there that night. Hey, thanks a lot. Love the show. Bye.
- [06:19]
Derek Hayes
Thank you, Stacy. This kind of story can go one of three ways. There's the obvious, as Stacy mentioned some aggressive driver doing their best to overtake Stacy on the road. Or could it be one of my favorite paranormal subcategories, a phantom car there one minute and gone the next. But, you know, in recent episodes, we've been exploring what might be A third option, a ufo. Now, I've shared several calls and even featured one of these stories in my film. It seems to depict exactly what Stacy just detailed. An unidentified flying object that resembles headlights, at first quickly catching up to a car driving down the highway. Then suddenly the lights fade or fly up out of sight. So take your pick here, Stacey, but my money is on one of those three. But before you go making your pick, just know that that stretch of road is an infamous one. Delaney discovered that there have been a large number of automobile wrecks on that stretch of road, Cherry Valley Road, or Crystal Springs Road as it's now named. Many of these accidents were fatal, so perhaps that has some bearing on the strange activity that Stacy reported. I've linked to several newspaper articles that we found. There's nothing about ghosts there, but there is plenty of death. So a big thanks to you, Stacy, for sharing all this information with us. Yet another in a long list of haunted roads. Now folks, let's get this first ad break out of the way. But when I come back, we're going to summon an evil queen. Yeah, a little bit.
- [08:21]
Caller
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- [08:26]
Derek Hayes
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- [10:15]
Caller
Hi Derek and Meinsters among us listeners. My name is Madeline and I'm calling from South Central Pennsylvania. My sister and I grew up in a haunted house and this story is an example of one of those experiences. I was 13 at the time that this happened. I'm now 40. I was in bed reading a book with the light on by myself and I heard breathing right next to me on my right side. It was a steady breathing. It was distinct because I was hearing this disembodied breathing. I tried to figure out where it was coming from, so I looked in the space between the bed and the nightstand to see if there was anything there that could be causing it. I leaned over to the lamp and wondered if it was making a strange noise. The cat was in the room with me, so I went up to the cat and listened intently for her breathing, which was obviously very different from the distinct breathing I was hearing right next to me. So, not being able to find a source for it, I decided to leave the room and I went downstairs to where my mom and sister were watching a movie and told them what had happened. Of course they came upstairs and investigated with me. Obviously at that point nothing was going on and the sound was no longer happening. So I just had to leave it at that and always wondered what that was. Thank you for letting me share my story and I greatly look forward to listening to more episodes.
- [12:15]
Derek Hayes
Thank you, Madeline. Now, a couple of seasons back, I shared that my step grandmother has been talking about something breathing on her couch at the senior apartment complex that she lives in. According to her, she could hear the couch inhaling and exhaling. Well, over time she sort of stopped talking about it, and a lot of us in the family were under the impression that the weird occurrences were behind her. And eventually she moved to a new apartment in the same complex. But just a month or so back, my dad informed me that not only was the activity still occurring, but it followed her to the new apartment. She'd only stopped talking about the strange activity because she thought people were going to think she was losing her mind. And given that she's in her 80s, I guess that's a valid fear. So that's where we stand today. I believe she's set to move yet again, and I'll be sure to let you know if it follows her there as well. So thanks for reminding me of that story, Madeline, and thank you again for calling in. Now folks, if you have a tale to tell. Call our hotline at 888-608-night. That's 888-608-NIG HT. Or you can record your story in the form of a voice memo and email the file to me at Monsters Among Us Podcastmail. Remember, true stories, only one story per call. One call per story. Call back if you need more time to finish. And please call from a quiet place. And don't forget about those hometown legend calls. We only have a few weeks before that window is closed. Now for that evil queen I teased about. Please welcome Gina from Texas.
- [14:15]
Caller
Hi Derek. This is Gina from East Texas. A quick little short story. I just kind of like don't know how to explain what happened to me and a friend. We were at a birthday party. I was probably about 11 or 12 years old. I'm 39 now. So it was a while back. We were at a birthday party with a whole bunch of other girls and it was kind of late and our friend parents had gone to bed. They were on the other side of the house, like huge one story house. And all the other bedrooms were on the other side of the house down this hallway with the one single bathroom in the middle of the hallway that they all shared. And we were dared to go in this hallway bathroom which was not very big. You know, you had like the double vanity on one wall, the same wall as the toilet. And then on the wall behind you was the tub, shower combo and like a linen closet. So they dared us to go in the bathroom and do the whole Bloody Mary thing in the mirror. For the lights off, we had to stand there with a candle and blow it out at the end of the things Bloody Mary three times in the mirror. So we did that and we stood there for a few seconds and kind of got freaked out a little bit. Thought that we saw the image of a creepy looking girl starting to kind of fade into view. But we didn't really see it completely. We got very freaked out. We started trying to find the light split. Well when we started spilling around this not so big bathroom, we couldn't find a wall or a countertop or a shower. We couldn't find anything. We kept walking around trying to find a wall, find the light switch and when I would holler for her, she sounded like she was far away. And this was just a small run of the mill hallway bathroom. I was trying to find her. We were absolutely losing our mind. The other girls we were with finally decided it's not funny anymore, trying to get in the bathroom they couldn't open the door. They had to ram the door open. When they flipped the switch on, I was in the tub shower and my friend was on top of the toilet. We have absolutely no idea how this happened. I have no memory of stepping into the shower, is no memory of climbing on top of the toilet. I mean, till this day, I'm still dumbfounded as to what had happened. There was just no explanation for was pretty much all over with after that. We were too freaked out to continue on. We went back to the bedroom, talked about our experience with our other friends. Everybody was just weirded out. Nobody thought we were faking it. We 100% were not. I mean, I absolutely was not. And with how scared she seemed as well, I don't think she was either. I mean, if I was experiencing not being able to find a wall in a tiny bathroom, I would imagine she had to also be experiencing the same thing. So I don't know how to explain that. I didn't think the whole Bloody Mary thing was real. I don't really know the history of it. That's all I got. Thanks, Derek. Keep it sticky.
- [18:08]
Derek Hayes
Thank you, Gina. Now, I've heard dozens of Bloody Mary stories over the years. I've even participated when I was a young kid. And I can count the number of reports of Mary actually showing up on one single hand. Typically it's a slamming door or extinguished candle, maybe a disembodied voice or an eerie feeling. It's not all that often that a face actually appears in the room. So that makes this experience special. Now, for those of you that are unfamiliar, Bloody Mary is a kids game. Usually you bring your friends into the bathroom, you light a candle, turn off the lights, then staring into a darkened mirror, you repeat her name three times. The rumor is sometimes she appears. But who is this bathroom demon and where exactly does she come from? Well, for that information we go to one of my favorite sources, Monstrum on pbs.
- [19:18]
Patricia
Only one other female figure in history has been called Bloody Mary. Mary Tudor, or Queen Mary I. Born to Catherine of Aragon and King Henry VIII In 1516, Princess Mary was named after her beautiful aunt, an attribute she came to embody. Scorned by her father upon his second marriage, she would eventually be declared his rightful heir in his will and took the throne in 1553. Her reign was fraught with tension. At Mary's command, hundreds of Protestants were burned at the stake as heretics. Despite this violence, it wasn't until her half sister Queen Elizabeth's rule that she would become known as Bloody Mary. Likely as an attempt to diminish or at least tarnish her historical significance, the catchy name gained popularity as the 17th century wore on.
- [20:04]
Derek Hayes
She sure doesn't sound like the kind of person you want to be summoning, if you ask me. Spooky stuff, Gina, and fun stuff as well. Thank you again for taking the time. And for those of you keeping score, Bloody Mary. Now let's cleanse our pallet with a little something angelic, shall we? Please welcome Patricia, also from the Lone Star State.
- [20:39]
Patricia
My name is Patricia. I'm calling from Texas. This story took place in about February or March of 1997. I had just given birth to my daughter, and I was living at home with my mom. My daughter was asleep in her crib, and I woke up in the middle of the night. I looked over towards her crib, and I could see two angels sitting on, you know, kind of like the headboard, if cribs had headboards. I looked. I, you know, was just kind of thinking, that's weird. I wasn't scared at all. They were definitely angels. I would say probably about, I don't know, maybe 18 to 24 inches tall. I could only see the back of them. So I just kind of saw just wings, basically. And then I just rolled over and went back to sleep. I didn't think anything of it. I was just so unbothered, which is also weird. And then I woke up the next morning and I told my mom what had happened, and she made me realize how strange that episode was. And then fast forward a few years. My sister was living at home with my mom at this time, and she had just had a baby, and she was using the same crib, and she was in the same room that I was in at the time. And she told me that she had woke up in the middle of the night and she saw two angels on the crib as well. I think it was on the other side, though, like the long portion. But she said they were just small angels and she just saw the back of them and didn't really think anything of it. I haven't really heard any angel stories, and I've tried Googling and haven't really gotten any answers, but I know what I saw. They were definitely angels. I do remember my mom telling a friend of hers right after it happened, and the friend said that she thought it was a warning that the angels were going to take the baby to heaven. So I started having the baby sleep closer to me. She's 26 now, so she's doing great. I haven't had any thing happen since then and that's literally the only paranormal slash, you know, unexplainable event that's ever happened to me. But thank you so much for your podcast and everything you do, and I would love to hear more angel stories if anyone out there has them. Thanks. Bye.
- [22:57]
Derek Hayes
Thanks for calling in now. You know, I haven't heard many angel stories like this either, Patricia, but I have heard dozens of little people stories. And these little angels sort of sound similar to what those forest folk witnesses reported. Tiny humans a foot tall or even less typically wearing clothing, sometimes dressed in woodland materials. But the wings? That's what separates these two experiences. And that detail might be what sets Patricia's apart from all others. You heard her folks. If you have an angel story like this, please call it in. Patricia and her sister can't be the only ones. So thank you again, Patricia for sharing this super interesting account.
- [23:56]
Cam Hale
He's had a hell of a game as well.
- [23:59]
Derek Hayes
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- [26:04]
Kyle Filson
Notes acknowledging what's got you sick.
- [26:08]
Cam Hale
The greatest of all time.
- [26:12]
Derek Hayes
Now for this next one, we must turn our gaze to the stars. Cat. Welcome back to the program.
- [26:22]
Kat
Hi, Derek, this is Kat, the truck driver. This happened a couple months ago. I was in Holbrook, Arizona on Interstate 40. There's a travel plaza there. It's a 1 9, also called the Hobie Travel Plaza. I was parked on the north side of the parking lot. It's a paved truck stop, but it also has gravel dirt parking for whoever it was. About 2 in the morning, I was on the phone with my friend because I'm afraid of the dark and out there there's nothing but desert, stars and weird noises from the wind. So I have my dog in the north field of the truck stop. I'm sitting there telling her, you know, go to the bathroom, focus, do your business. Talking to my friend on the phone. And I look over towards the roadway and part of the road began to. I don't know, best way to describe it was self illuminate, like there were no street lights in that area. I looked and I was just like, I wonder if that's a pair of headlights from a vehicle turning into the truck stop. As I was watching, a vehicle did turn into the truck stop and the light was completely different. The light that lit up the road was softer, like a pathway had been lit up. There was nothing three feet above it in the air. It was just like someone had lit up that stretch of road from the curb line. And then as I'm watching it and I'm telling my friend there's something weird going on, it fades away like someone put a dimmer on it. And then it just kind of clicked out. Because of that, my attention was just solely focused on that stretch of road. And because my eyes were over in that field of view, I was also looking at just a stretch of desert, nothing else on it. I couldn't even see a cell phone tower in that area. As I'm staring at this field trying to process what it was that I saw, these four glowing orbs were in this perfect square pattern like it could have been. They were two feet away from each other, but they were in perfect four points of a square. And they started growing bigger. At this point, conversation with my friend has been forgotten. I'm reeling in my dog on her leash, like, okay, it's time to go. So I put my dog back in the truck and to just process what I was seeing, I go to touch some form of civilization. I go walking into the truck stop, I get myself something to drink, something to snack on, and the guy behind the counter is like, you okay? You look like you saw something weird. And I was just like, is it really that obvious written on my face? And he was like, yeah. And I told him what I saw, saying, you know, does anyone else say anything like that they've seen anything creepy or anything at this truck stop? And his face goes from shock at the story I was telling him to, oh heck yeah, I got a ghost story to tell you too. I'm like, lay it on me. And he told me about at least once a week there's a shadow person that just walks through the truck stop like they own the place. And I don't know much about this truck stop. If there's any other truck driver out there who just happens to see what I saw, I mean, let me know. Thanks for listening again.
- [30:25]
Derek Hayes
Bye. Thanks, cat. No, I'm 99% sure that I've been to this truck stop myself on one of my many cross country drives. And there's not much out there, just as Kat said, except maybe strange lights and shadow entities. This area has a bloody history both with Native Americans and later with white settlers. It's also a place peppered with quartz deposits, and it's also along Route 66. And you know what folks say about liminal spaces. And in addition, this location is only 50 miles from where Travis Walton was infamously abducted by aliens back in 1975. At least that's how the story goes. Now, this experience seemed enough like a UFO encounter to cross reference it with old reports. So we did. And while we didn't find a match in that exact location, Holbrook, Arizona, we did find a matching experience that took place in Gallup, New Mexico, which is only about 90 miles away from Holbrook. Here is that report which was found on Reddit. I'm a semi truck driver in Albuquerque and I drive to Holbrook, Arizona and back six days a week for almost every shift. Over the last six months, I've seen four strange lights in the sky to the west. They usually start appearing around 8.30pm at last until about 9pm at that time, I'm usually near the thoreau exit on I40 or close to Gallop. When the lights start up, one will get really bright and then fade. Away, then another will appear and do the same thing until all four can be seen. Sometimes they form what looks like a constellation. There's almost always one light that zooms back and forth underneath another or circles it. It's always a crazy show to watch. And if that's not enough to convince you that the American Southwest is a strange place full of strange activity, I have one more piece of information to share. A UFO video. I tossed a link to it up in tonight's show Notes, a video that was taken outside of Holbrook, the very place where Cat had her experience. I'm not sure what's depicted in the video, but I do think it's worth taking a look. So thank you again, Cat, for sharing your experience here with us. Now, speaking of shadow figures, it's time to explore that phenomenon. Please welcome Sherry out of Georgia.
- [33:23]
Caller
Hi Derek, this is Sherry from Georgia, and I wanted to call you and tell you my story about my shadow man. It was around 2001 and middle of the night. I was hot. So I got up to turn down the air conditioner and walked at the end of the hall where the living room was to turn the air conditioner down. And as I stood there, I felt a presence, something watching me. Granted, this is three o' clock in the morning, so I looked to my left and standing in front of my fireplace was a black figure. He had a hat on, looked like some kind of coat or cloak. And when I gasped, he charged at me. But before he got to me, he evaporated. Needless to say, I went back to bed trembling, told my husband. So that was the first incident went in. Fifteen years later, I am watching TV in the bedroom and see my son come home. He was a teenager, working. Go to talking to him, ask him how his day, but he doesn't answer. So I finally get up, you know, and I'm trying to figure out why he's not answering me. I know he hears me and he's not there. So I'll walk down the hall and ask the rest of the family where he was at. And everybody's like, well, he's not here. So apparently I had saw a shadow figure walk into his bedroom and then disappear. But love your podcast and we'll be listening. Bye bye.
- [35:10]
Derek Hayes
Thank you, Sherry. A shadow man charging at you in your very own house. It just ain't right. And for it to seemingly mimic your son, I guess that's even worse. And it's all spooky as hell. Sherry, I think we love it. So a big thanks for calling in here tonight. Now folks, don't forget that you can further support the show and look good doing it by picking up some merchandise from our shop at monsters among us podcast.com and by clicking on the Shop tab. All the designs are created by artists in the paranormal space, printed by a real print shop outside of Dayton, Ohio and shipped by my mom on the other side of the state. No AI, no big companies, just some folks selling some T shirts. So again, visit monsters among us podcast.com and smash that shop tab. Now next up, we head to the state of Illinois. Please welcome Josie to the program.
- [36:23]
Caller
Hi Derek, My name is Josie and I live in Illinois. Over the course of my life I've had many run ins with the unexplained. Today I will share a story that happened a few years ago. I currently live in a house that's over 100 years old. With a house this old you would expect to feel some kind of residual energy. I've lived here for about six years before I moved here. My best friend lived here for five years and I once asked her if she's ever felt anything weird here in this house and she told me she's never felt anything paranormal while living here and even wanted to move back if I choose to move out. I have a 4 year old husky named Titan. Huskies are pack dogs and tend to want to be in the room with their pack majority of the time. One day I was doing laundry in the basement. My basement has four stairs that lead down to a landing that overlooks the basement and another 10 stairs or so that lead down to the basement floor and you can see the whole basement from the landing. Well, Tight was on the landing that overlooks the basement. I could see him as I was transferring laundry from the washer to the dryer and I was asking if he was going to come down and keep me company. As I was watching him, I can see he's contemplating coming down the stairs, even making little wooing sounds. Huskies have this little form of talk they do. It's a little wooing and they'll usually communicate back and forth with you. So he's making these little wooing sounds to answer my questions when something pushes him from behind down the stairs. I saw his butt move forward as if something was pushing him. It all happened so fast. I saw it all clearly. He does not make any sound as he tumbles down the stairs and as I rush over to check on him, he stands up, shakes himself off and proceeds to look back up the stairs as do I, but there's no one there. I ask him what happened. I give him a quick pat down to see if he hurt himself, but he was fine. He then runs upstairs and refused to come back down for a couple months. Now, almost three years later, he would usually only lay down on the landing and watch me do laundry from over the edge. He never allows me to go into the basement alone, but only waits for me on the landing. My husband and I experience a few things in this house. My husband swears that I'm haunted. I tell him I'm just a little more open to the unexplained than others. Thank you and have a good day.
- [38:46]
Derek Hayes
Thank you Josie now we hear a lot of stories here on the program about pets and the paranormal. Typically what is described is essentially the pet seeing something that its human owner cannot. Other times the pet and human see the same thing. But to hear about a spirit actually touching a pet and not only touching, but forcefully pushing. Well, that's relatively rare. Poor guy. I hope that this was a one time occurrence for Titan Sag. I'd hate to think that this is something he's dealt with often. I thank you again Josie for sharing this rare story and for the sake of the animals, I hope it stays rare.
- [39:39]
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- [40:09]
Patricia
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- [41:05]
Cam Hale
Then there is another crash on the back of that.
- [41:13]
Derek Hayes
Now up next, we dip down to Alabama. Please join me in welcoming James to tonight's broadcast.
- [41:23]
James
My name is James. I live in northern Alabama. So I had just moved here about a year ago. I never lived too close to the woods or nothing like that. Now I have my own home pretty close by the woods. I don't have any neighbors. It's kind of just one long road. The nearest neighbors probably like five miles away. So, yeah, I don't have any neighbors. And since I don't have any neighbors, there's really no one around me in that one road. I can hear cars, you know, come down like a mile away. I can hear them playing music. I can hear them pretty much just driving down the street. Well, one day, I want to say it was in February, late at night, maybe around 10pm at night, I was letting my two dogs out to go use the restroom. And I'm sitting there in my patio and I have like a tenth of a mile of driveway until it reaches my home. My home's kind of like tucked in the woods. And then this has my house, and then the rest of it around me is all woods. I don't really have any fence that blocks it off, so it's open for critters and my dogs to go roam around the woods. I think, like, anyhow, as I'm chilling here and my dogs are using the restroom, I can hear what sounds like a Tesla coming down the street. You know, that Tesla has that really weird, distinctive sound. Kind of sounds like a spaceship, like a woo woo woo kind of sound. So I'm waiting to see this Tesla come down the street, and I don't see it, right? And I'm wondering, okay, it's gonna show up any minute here. And it ends up getting louder and louder and louder. And it sounds like it's cutting through my field, going straight towards my house. It doesn't sound like it's going through my driveway. Sounds like it's going through the field to my house. And I can hear it getting louder and louder. And I'm sitting here like, what the hell? Like, what the hell's going on? It sounds like it's part of my house pretty soon. And at the corner of my eye, as my eyes are focused towards the road, I'm hearing this noise I look in my peripherals to my top left by these trees and if you've ever seen the movie Predator vs. Alien or Predator in general, you know, they have that invisibility attribute that they use. So I've seen something like invisible like that, but I can still kind of see like the outline of zips from the trees out into the sky. And my ears and my body reacted before my eyes did because I heard the noise. It sound like I was coming through the field, right. And it went up through the trees and out to the sky in my ears. I just immediately turned left and my eyes tried to pin with the noise is coming from, but I couldn't see anything. There was nothing there just besides that, like, I don't know, I don't want to call it a silhouette. It was like an invisible kind of figure or something. It was invisible, but I could still kind of see like the distortion and like the reality or whatever. It just, you know, looked like something was there, but I couldn't see it. Kind of like Harry Potter when he uses his invisibility club, you kind of see that silhouette or whatever. Anyhow, I have no idea what it was. That was the only time it ever happened. And I have yet to experience anything else in my farmhouse. Anyways, thank you. Have a good day.
- [44:40]
Derek Hayes
Thank you, James, for calling in. Now folks, we're going to do things just a little bit differently here this evening. I'm going to hear from a couple of experts. I'm going to bring a couple of experts in here rather to talk about what I think James might be explaining here. The Glimmer Man. So two friends of mine that wrote the book on the subject, Cam Hale and Kyle Filson, welcome to the show.
- [45:02]
Kyle Filson
Yeah, thanks.
- [45:03]
Cam Hale
Ease up on the word expert.
- [45:06]
Derek Hayes
We throw that around a lot here in cryptozoology and the paranormal, don't we?
- [45:11]
Cam Hale
Yeah, it does get tossed around quite a bit. Yeah, I guess we're more the collectors. We did. We had no idea we were gonna. It was gonna turn into this.
- [45:20]
Derek Hayes
Well, I may as well tell people what we're talking about here, I guess because I kind of buried the lead. You guys wrote a book along with Lon Strickler of phantoms and monsters, is that right?
- [45:28]
Cam Hale
Yes, sir. All about the Glimmer Man. So this started, man, I don't remember how many years ago did we start first getting eight or nine years ago, maybe longer. Maybe 10.
- [45:37]
Kyle Filson
Yeah, I would say it's probably 11. Ten years ago, we received a story that was just like the one we just listened to where a person didn't really know what they saw. They were out walking their dog, like in a park. This was like a young college student. She didn't have much money, and so she did things like play disc golf or hike in parks because it was cheap, you know, her dog noticed something in the trees. She didn't think it was anything unusual. She thought it was looking at squirrels or something. But the more she looked much like the guest that you just played. She saw what looked like a translucent humanoid in the tree and it startled her. And she watched it. She saw it move around for a while and she was trying to describe it. She said that I could tell it was the shape of a person, but it was like see through. She had never seen the movie the Predator, what she described as like a heat wave off of a hot road, like a mirage, like shimmering, maybe like cellophane. She was trying to describe what it looked like. It was something camouflaging itself. And when she wrote us that story, we were in shock. We didn't know what it was. We never heard anything like that. We were like, wow, what is this? So when we aired that story, we instantly got four or five other emails from other listeners describing the same thing. And they were like, oh my God, I thought I was the only one. So then we started collecting those stories and we would retell those on the show. And then the same effect every time we would air someone's encounter, we would get other people that had had similar encounters and we began sharing them with Lon Strickler and like you said, phantoms and monsters. And he would get sightings and he would share them with us. And after years of doing it, I was like, you know, no one's really ever written a book about the Glimmer Man. Maybe we should combine. How many stories do you think you have? And he's like, well, I probably have 40. And I was like, well, we probably have 42. Then we just collected them all, put them in the book, and the book just dropped, so. And it's called Glimmer Man. Cloaked beings that move among us.
- [47:32]
Derek Hayes
And I've got the book right here, right in my hands and it's excellent. I am a slow reader. I read the beginning and the end and the middle is just filled with first hand encounters. Dozens of them, hundreds of them, maybe.
- [47:45]
Kyle Filson
I don't know, there's almost 100. I think it's in the high 80s, low 90s.
- [47:49]
Derek Hayes
So many and very diverse from all different parts of the world. Different descriptions of what's going on, but they all seem to be featuring the same entity here.
- [47:58]
Kyle Filson
Yeah, that's right. And it's an interesting phenomenon because it doesn't really fit in a category like other cryptids do. You know, like, when you read a Bigfoot sighting, you know what it is?
- [48:08]
Cam Hale
This.
- [48:09]
Kyle Filson
No one really knows what it is. In fact, even the name the Glimmer man, people want to say, well, did you guys come up with that? And the answer is, no, not really. What was happening is people would write in with their description of what they saw. Some people called it the Invisible Man. Some people said it was a spirit or a nature spirit. Other people who have obviously seen the movie would say, no, it was the Predator. You know, and people would describe it as shimmering, glimmering or whatever. And I remember in the early days, every time Lon would send us a story or he would post it on his website, he would call it a predator, like, being. And after reading so many of those, we were like, you know, we need to quit calling it that, because it's
- [48:44]
Derek Hayes
gonna be a better name.
- [48:45]
Kyle Filson
This caveat that it's an extraterrestrial.
- [48:48]
Derek Hayes
Right.
- [48:48]
Kyle Filson
It's not what it is, or we. It's one possibility of what it could be. So we just started calling it the Glimmer man, and it just kind of stuck. And all those stories has a lot of similarities in them. And like you said, they're not just here in America. They're from all over. And what's funny is some of the sightings happened before the movie the Predator. So it wasn't. Wasn't something that they saw on television and then, you know, imagined. This has been going on, and it could be several things. Some people theorize it is it's just a ghost, because, you know, ghosts are kind of transparent.
- [49:20]
Derek Hayes
Sure.
- [49:20]
Kyle Filson
Other people have suggested that it is, in fact, an extraterrestrial able to cloak itself. And then there's other people that think it's something demonic or like a gin. Other people think it's a guardian angel because there's not really been any attacks by this. This Glimmer Man.
- [49:38]
Derek Hayes
I think an observer, right?
- [49:40]
Kyle Filson
Yes. Yes. And much like fey folk, you know, when you hear these stories of gnomes or sprites or fate, they are always observing, and they seem almost shocked when you can see them. It's like, you're not supposed to be able to see me. Oftentimes once the Glimmer man notices you, noticing retreats and disappears very quickly.
- [50:00]
Derek Hayes
It almost feels like some sort of reconnaissance mission or something like that. Doesn't it? The way these things operate. Great. And the way they look.
- [50:07]
Cam Hale
Yeah. Kyle and I have discussed that at length of all fair is that right there. It almost feels like a scout mission.
- [50:12]
Derek Hayes
Yeah.
- [50:13]
Cam Hale
Now, I'm not saying that the people they're scouting on is important enough to be scouted on. I'm just saying they witnessed the scout mission itself is what it feels like. The strange stories to me are the ones that we've received and they're in the book of where they take place inside of homes. Most of them are all outside or they're witnessed, you know, in the woods or in a park or, you know, at distance. Then we started getting a few where they were actually in people's houses, in their bedroom, in the home. Those are few and far between. You don't get a lot of those. But it does feel like the same thing, whether it's there checking up on you or whatever it is. But they do report much of the exact same thing like we get from the outdoor sightings. Another odd thing about it to me is we have stories where people have seen this creature go into trees, whatever this thing is, climb trees, start out in a tree. They report the tree moving. You can see physical action in the tree as it moves from, like, branch to branch or even jumping tree to tree. You can see the limbs, you can see the trees moving. And you can see this shimmering or, you know, near invisible predator like thing moving in the trees. We also have stories of the exact same thing, but there's no movement in the trees. It's like this thing is standing on a branch that shouldn't be able to hold it, and it jumps to another one, and that branches and the trees on that doesn't move. So they're in the same area, same setting. But sometimes it's like, sometimes they're physically interacting with, like, our realm, and then other times it's just like they're floating. They still move and interact, but they show no movement or anything showing that it was there. So, yeah, it makes me wonder how many times have we all driven past it. You're driving down the road if that thing. So you would have no idea.
- [51:56]
Derek Hayes
That's a terrifying thought. I mean, and it reminds me of a story I had submitted here on the show. Oh, man. Years ago from a family up in, I want to say, Idaho. And they were traveling across the state to go to a theme park or something, and they stopped at a rest area, and inside the rest area, it was the mom and the little girl going to the bathroom. I believe they saw one of these entities standing there in the corner. You know, obviously freaked them out. So I've had the same thing where people have reported sightings inside their home. A majority of them are outdoors, but sometimes it does happen indoors. And I will point out one of my favorite things about this entire genre of story is I don't know if you guys even know this, but you keep bringing up the film the Predator, or Predator, I guess. There's no the in it. The guy that designed that look, believe it or not, is the son of J. Allen Hynek of Project Blue Book fame.
- [52:48]
Kyle Filson
Yes, yes. In fact, that's in the book. Years ago, when we were researching, after getting so many of these sightings of the Glimmer Man, I was just curious one day, and I was like, I wonder who did the cloaking effect on the Predator. I wonder who did the special effects? So when I looked up who did it, it was a guy named Joel Heineck. And I'm like, that is a weird name.
- [53:05]
Cam Hale
Yeah, That's a rather unusual last name.
- [53:07]
Derek Hayes
Yeah. You remember that, right? Yeah.
- [53:09]
Kyle Filson
And when I dug into it, sure enough, J. Allen Hynek, the astronomer, professor, and ufologist, that was his father. So it always makes you wonder, did dad tell Joel something that he knew? Yeah, that's what inspired into the office
- [53:23]
Derek Hayes
late at night and dug through some papers or something and always remembered that.
- [53:27]
Cam Hale
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Hynek's last name, kind of like Lazar. When you hear that, you're like, wait
- [53:32]
Derek Hayes
a minute, there's that instant association with the paranormal name.
- [53:37]
Kyle Filson
And we want to thank you, Derek, because the story you were just referencing, the one up in Idaho. Yeah, that's actually in the book because I don't know if you remember the years ago, you sent us about four or five Glimmer sightings, and those were included. So you paid a small part in the production of the book.
- [53:50]
Derek Hayes
I'm glad I could spread the word because this is such a fascinating subject
- [53:54]
Cam Hale
and we never intended it for us to be, like, the area that it gets dropped on. Right. It's like, that's what you never expect. We just started talking about it because as we've made it well known throughout the years, Kyle and I love the movie Predator. Like, it's one of our favorite films growing up, the whole thing. Right.
- [54:09]
James
Same.
- [54:09]
Cam Hale
So as it started going well, then everybody just like, that's the Glimmer man, guys. And it just keeps coming, keeps coming, keeps coming, and it just never ends. And it's good because it's one of those one off things in this strange supernatural world that people when they do experience it is like there's nobody talking about this. Like nobody's had this experience till you go online and look, you're like, wait a minute, okay. Other people have seen it. I'm not out of my mind.
- [54:36]
Derek Hayes
Yeah.
- [54:36]
Kyle Filson
That's the most common is when people do hear it. I'm sure somebody listening to this will be like, I thought I was the only one. That's what we keep getting from people. And there's also what separates the Glimmer man sightings from other Cryptids, like shadow people or something. People see it one time in their life. It's not something that they see multiple times throughout their life like they do with shadow beings and stuff. It's like, man, it happened one time, it lasted 10 seconds. I never saw it again. I kind of put it out of my mind and I never really thought about it again until I heard this show. And then I'm like, holy cow, I remember that.
- [55:06]
Cam Hale
Which makes it impossible to study when you have one off Things like that. There's no way.
- [55:11]
Derek Hayes
Just wait in a field forever for it to show up. Right?
- [55:13]
Cam Hale
Yeah, exactly.
- [55:14]
Derek Hayes
Exactly.
- [55:14]
Cam Hale
And then you may not even notice it.
- [55:16]
Derek Hayes
Yeah. It walks right by you.
- [55:18]
Cam Hale
Yeah. My mind goes to at night.
- [55:20]
Derek Hayes
Oh, yeah.
- [55:21]
Cam Hale
If you saw him during the day is one thing. You're never going to see them at night.
- [55:24]
Derek Hayes
Yeah.
- [55:24]
Cam Hale
It's not going to water.
- [55:25]
Derek Hayes
Maybe you'd never see him underwater either.
- [55:27]
Cam Hale
Goodness. Yeah. That would be. Look, I don't scuba dive or swim in water like that anyway. And that's just another reason for me not to go.
- [55:34]
Derek Hayes
Exactly. I'm the exact same way on top of the water and that's my limit. And even then I fish it, I
- [55:42]
Cam Hale
don't swim in it.
- [55:43]
Derek Hayes
Exactly.
- [55:44]
Kyle Filson
There's also some strange phenomenon associated with Glimmer man that happens often times the Oz effect where everything goes quiet before it goes quiet. That's when someone will have an observation. There also have been missing time where people see the Glimmer man and then they realize that an hour and a half had gone by what only felt like five minutes.
- [56:02]
Derek Hayes
That's interesting.
- [56:03]
Kyle Filson
And then there's. It starts getting really wild there. Some of the theories start coming back, but these are time travelers, that this is us and we have the ability to come back in time, but we're cloaked when we're doing it. And that's just why they're looking around.
- [56:13]
Cam Hale
And then like how he prefaces now, it starts getting really Wild, you're like just now.
- [56:18]
Kyle Filson
Have you ever heard of the giant translucent manta ray shaped things that people see in the sky?
- [56:24]
Derek Hayes
Yeah, yeah, the gargantuan gliders. I think some people.
- [56:27]
Kyle Filson
So yeah, there's people that are saying that that's what the Glimmer man is flying in. Like that's his ufo. That's his ship. It's cloaked and he's cloaked.
- [56:35]
Derek Hayes
Well, let's bring this all the way back to James's call because it sounds like that's exactly what he's describing here in his entry. Is it 100?
- [56:42]
Cam Hale
Yeah, yeah, like it's in something traveling. Hey look, we've all seen Predator. You can watch Predator Badlands, you can watch any of them. Look, their ships go invisible. Maybe it's not too far away from the truth. Maybe it's just another species of alien, maybe that's just here hanging out.
- [56:57]
Derek Hayes
Very true. Let me ask you about one detail that James did mention in his call, which was the humming sound. He said it sounded like a Tesla backing up. Maybe, is what he said. Do you guys have reports of that where strange sounds are heard during these sightings?
- [57:10]
Cam Hale
We've probably only had one, maybe two where people have ever reported hearing anything around them, like the possibility of a ship or the possibility of something else there. Most of the time there's no sound heard with them other than like I described in the trees.
- [57:27]
Derek Hayes
Well, what about location? Is there a hotspot for this sort of activity? Are there certain states where people see this more often than others?
- [57:34]
Kyle Filson
Well, I wouldn't say there's a state that's more prevalent than another, but they are often seen in and around like military bases and stuff, which makes people, some people theorize that it's military, high tech, but I, I like to argue that because if the military is going to test out some kind of crazy camouflage and they're in your home and it was to not work anymore, they'd be like, they'd be revealing that they had the technology. It seems like a gamble that they wouldn't be willing to take.
- [57:59]
Derek Hayes
That's a big risk, right?
- [58:01]
Cam Hale
Yeah, right. That they could test on their own.
- [58:04]
Derek Hayes
Right.
- [58:04]
Kyle Filson
There'd be no reason to test it on.
- [58:05]
Cam Hale
So you could run around it. Yeah, you would never leave the base with it. Another thing that's odd is their sightings in and around a lot of state parks, you know, in national parks that already have very strange things in and around those areas. So like, you know, the people that have speculated military bases or secret installments in certain mountainous areas, and then there'll be sightings around those as well. So it almost goes. I can't say all the time. I can't even say 50, 50. I would say probably 30 or 40% of them have that connotation to them. And the rest literally just seems like people see them accidentally and then this thing, whatever it is, notices that they're kind of watching them, and then they just kind of hang out and watch back.
- [58:52]
Derek Hayes
And the fact that all this seems to happen around these military installments, again circles back to that reconnaissance theory. I mean, they're probably watching, right? I mean, it makes perfect sense.
- [59:02]
Cam Hale
But we've not got any reports of, like, violence. You don't get it to where, like, oh, it's throwing stuff at you, or, oh, it's tearing things up, or, oh, I get this feeling of dread when I. You don't get that? Most people get this. It starts off as, like, an uneasy feeling of being watched, or like a sense of not dread, rather, or not even panic, but just like an ominous feeling, like, settles over you, more of like it's just your instinct telling you that something's not right. People report that before they report hearing no sounds, and all this before they really notice, oh, there's something over there.
- [59:38]
Derek Hayes
Now, is there any communication ever reported by these things? Like, have they ever tried to speak to anybody or made audible noise that way?
- [59:45]
Cam Hale
It doesn't seem to be. Yeah, it just seems to be just simply their presence. It's not like they're telepathically talking to people or any of that. It's just like, again, it. Just like they are there scouting and observing. Now, why is anybody's guess the people that they're actually interacting with, the ones in their homes, we don't know why. There doesn't seem to be a key or a link to any of that yet. The threads are still out, but they don't seem to be as ominous as when you hear, like, the Shadow man stories or if you hear any stories of alien grays or any kind of. Any of that. It doesn't seem to have that same ominous undertone. It definitely doesn't have what the Dogman stories talk about people having. It doesn't have that. It really feels like these are just neutral observers for some reason.
- [60:33]
Derek Hayes
You know, for me, the horror is sort of a slow burn, because if these things are here, you know, spying on us, trying to collect intel, for what reason, you know, what is this leading up to and when is that going to happen? So that almost makes it scarier. You know, we're waiting for something this to lead to something bad, presumably.
- [60:50]
Cam Hale
Exactly. It always makes me think too because we've got stories and accounts way prior to 86, so prior to the filming of Predator. So looking at that, I'm like, well then how long have they been here and how long have they gone unnoticed? Because if you went back a hundred years, if you went back to 1926, there's a lot fewer people in and around this area anyway. Then you look at that like, well, how would they even notice it? It's beyond their comprehension at that point.
- [61:20]
Derek Hayes
And how would they describe it either? I mean, they couldn't compare it to Predator. They couldn't compare to, you know. Exactly.
- [61:25]
Cam Hale
Yeah, that's all it would be. So it kind of makes you go back and reevaluate old ghost stories.
- [61:30]
Kyle Filson
Yeah.
- [61:31]
Cam Hale
When people are talking about coming across haunted areas in the woods, there's ghosts in this part or this is an old battlefield or an old burial ground or whatever it is. And these ghosts are, we see them when we go out there. It makes you kind of reevaluate some of that and be like, what was it ghosts? Or could it have been the Glimmer man in these areas? It throws a bit of a monkey wrench in the whole timeline to break down. When you go back using what's in the book and you kind of get these ideas and look back, which is again, you get into this. If anybody listening, all y' all listening to all this and enjoy it, you want to find answers. You're never going to find answers. It doesn't happen. You find way more questions, you get deeper down the hole. Yeah, it gets crazier. It's kind of like that with everything.
- [62:16]
Derek Hayes
But I tell you what, you guys wrote the book literally on the subject. So if you want to learn more about the Glimmer man, you want to read all these different first hand accounts, pick up Glimmer man, cloaked beans that move among us. Gentlemen, where can you pick the book up?
- [62:30]
Kyle Filson
Yeah, you can find it on Amazon.
- [62:31]
Derek Hayes
Okay, perfect, perfect. Well, I want to thank you guys so much for swinging by and telling us a little bit more about this entity. I mean, we talk about it a lot here in the the show, but I'm even more in the dark than you guys are. I mean, you, you've compiled all this information so you kind of have an idea, whether you want to admit it or not, you kind of have an idea of what these things are about and possibly weather here. So I want to thank you guys for swinging by. And before you go quickly, please plug Expanded Perspectives, the book, Law and Strickler. All that stuff.
- [62:59]
Kyle Filson
Yeah, if you want to listen to us, you can find us on any podcast that there is. Expanded Perspectives is the name of the show. You can follow our Patreon as well. If you want more content, you can go to Phantoms and Monsters to look up lawn stuff. His work is legendary. He's got probably the best source for stories of this type and of all kinds.
- [63:19]
Cam Hale
He gets piles of them.
- [63:20]
Kyle Filson
Yeah, absolutely. If you have a sighting of your own you'd like to share with us, we would love to hear from you. You can email the show expanded perspectivesahoo.com you can call the hotline 888-393-2783. And like I said, you can find the book on Amazon. Thank you Derek.
- [63:35]
Derek Hayes
Of course, of course. I truly enjoy the book from what I've read of it. I'll finish this this week and I'm looking forward to digging into these calls late at night some night. And I keep calling them calls, but the stories you have in the book, they're really looking forward to it. So thank you gentlemen for swinging by and a huge thanks for putting this book together. It's going to be a well used resource for years to come.
- [63:55]
Cam Hale
Thanks Derek.
- [63:56]
Kyle Filson
Thank you.
- [63:57]
Derek Hayes
Take care guys. And folks, that's gonna do it for this evening. A big thanks to the boys at Expanded Perspectives for swinging by here tonight. Now be sure to check out their brand new book, Glimmer Cloaked Beans that Walk Among Us. And while you're at it, check out their podcast Expanded Perspectives. There's a link to both in the show. Notes. Now Monsters Among Us podcast is written and produced by me me Derek Hayes. Copyright Red Crow Media. Additional support is provided by Sarah Carter Hayes, Delaney Bowers and Connor Ryan. All media used in this production is done so under the protection of fair use. Now give us a like and follow on social media, join us on YouTube, give our discord server review and leave us a rates and review wherever that sort of thing is possible. Now don't forget you can catch the show every Saturday evening at 10 o' clock Eastern on the ONX Digital Network. Just visit onxnetwork.com to tune in. And finally, tonight's score was provided by Iron Cthulhu, Apocalypse Co AG Music and Carl Casey and Whitepad Audio. Now watch the documentary we made, Shadows in the desert. Visit borregotriangle.com to learn. You can tune in for free and tune in to Monsters Among Us Junior. New episodes drop every other Wednesday and finally join us in the beyond. Just keep listening and I'll tell you exactly how to get set up. But until then, Sa.
- [66:16]
Cam Hale
Yeah, I mean,
- [66:19]
Derek Hayes
however you want to judge that.
- [66:21]
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Derek Hayes
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Kyle Filson
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Cam Hale
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Derek Hayes
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- [67:22]
Cam Hale
We're watching the eastbound 10 connector to the southbound one. Yeah, I'm a lot.
- [67:28]
Derek Hayes
Oh man. All right gang, I've slated a fun one in tonight's secret slot. Please welcome Shauna to the show.
- [67:39]
Caller
Hi Derek. My name is Shauna. I'm a truck driver and two years ago in the first of April, I was sitting behind a store doing a 5am delivery and it was about 4:30 in the morning. I just woke up, I'd open up my curtains. I was in Little Rock, Arkansas and I had like a gigantic praying mantis walk in front of my truck. Never heard anything of it. Never seen anything like that ever again. But I just thought it was weird. And then I heard two callers that have already seen something like that before. I just want to say that they're not the only ones. Thank you.
- [68:20]
Derek Hayes
Thank you Shauna. Now when she says gigantic, I have to assume she's talking about these seven, eight or nine foot tall mantis men that have been reported over the years a few times on this show. Even now, we scoured records and reports, but we weren't able to find any additional mantis man sightings out of the state of Arkansas. But there are hot spots out there for this entity. Take for example the state of New Jersey. Specifically the Musconnectgong River. That's where back in 2002, this creature was witnessed for the very first time. Fishing in the Musconicon River. Brian Richter stopped mid cast. Something was wrong. The birds stopped singing. Insects stopped buzzing. The forest was suddenly quiet. Too quiet. Then he felt it. Eyes on his back. Someone or something was watching him. Brian turned. Slowly. At first he saw nothing. Then movement caught his eye. Between the trees stood something impossible. Seven feet tall at least. Long thin limbs. A triangular head. Head with large black eyes. Brian thought it looked like an insect. But it would be the biggest insect he'd ever seen. And it was staring right at him. Brian froze. Then something strange happened. He felt the creature in his mind, reading his thoughts. Somehow he knew this creature was intelligent. Then the being became transparent and faded away. It didn't move, but it just vanished. The forest remained silent. Brian quickly packed his gear. It was time to go. He couldn't see it, but he knew the creature was still there. Now that clip, courtesy of the Y files. Now you might have caught a little detail near the end of that account though. The fact that the creature seemed to disappear without actually leaving the area. Now I was curious as to how the witness, Brian Richter, actually described that activity. Because if I didn't know any better, I'd say he's describing attributes that the boys from Expanded Perspectives just assigned to the Glimmer Man. So I dug up actual testimony from this witness, just to see how similar the two cloaking techniques actually are. Now, the following originally aired on Monsters and Mysteries in America over 10 years ago. This thing was fading very quickly as it moved up the bank. And all that time never took its eyes off me. It was 1, 2, 3, gone. It vanished completely. But I'm sure that it was still there. I don't know a lot of similarities there. And if these two entities are one in the same, just uncloaked, so to speak, does that mean that all these Glimmer man entities that people are seeing are actually these Mantisman insectoids undercover? They're just running around out there with high tech camouflage on. Sometimes they think it's better that we don't know. But what an incredible connection if it is true. And thank you again, Shana, for ringing in tonight and setting all this up. And thank you listener for tuning in here this evening, because it's now that I leave most of you. But it doesn't have to be that way. For literally $5 a month you can listen to Monsters Among Us beyond for like three straight days without hearing a repeat episode, and you can actually test it all out for free for seven days using the free trial. Just visit monsters among us podcast.com and click the Patreon button or hit the subscription button on Apple Podcast. Either way, it's well worth the money and it's by far the best way to support the program. So join us over there, won't you? I'll be sure to share calls from folks like our buddy Frank here. He's Colleen Ann from the Big Apple.
- [72:48]
James
Hey Derek, it's Frank from Long Island. I have a story that happened at work. So I work in a courthouse. I am a cop inside the courthouse. We are not bailiffs. New York State has their own police force inside our courthouses. I can't tell you which courthouse I work in, but I will say that there's a lot of emotion that is happening inside, specifically my courthouse. So we like any other courthouse or nine to five. So once five o' clock hits, mostly everyone's outside the building. Pretty much anyone that's left over. There'll be like maybe some extra cases going on, but that's about it. But in this particular night, which happened actually not too long ago from when I'm calling right now, everything was done. But we also have like overtime shifts that the officers we stay a little bit at the closing time to make sure everyone is out. And also the last ones Safeway and
- [73:42]
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- [74:11]
Patricia
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- [74:15]
Caller
But when it's for a hospital system,
- [74:17]
Derek Hayes
they matter even more.
- [74:18]
Patricia
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- [74:20]
Caller
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- [74:23]
Patricia
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Caller
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- [74:42]
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