Episode 610: The Amityville Horror Conspiracy

Summary

Podcast Summary: Episode 610 - The Amityville Horror Conspiracy

Podcast Information:

• Title: Morbid
• Host/Author: Morbid Network | Wondery
• Episode: 610: The Amityville Horror Conspiracy
• Release Date: October 17, 2024

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Introduction to the Amityville Horror Conspiracy

In Episode 610, hosts Ash and Elena delve deep into the infamous Amityville Horror case, unraveling the layers of truth and conspiracy that have surrounded it for decades. They explore the story of George and Kathy Lutz, the Lutz family's experiences in the notorious house at 112 Ocean Avenue, and the subsequent fallout that led to one of the most debated true crime tales in modern history.

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Background: The DeFeo Murders and the Lutzes' Move

The episode begins by setting the stage in 1975, shortly after Ronald DeFeo Jr. murdered his six family members in the Amityville house. George and Kathy Lutz, newlyweds with three children from previous marriages, were seeking a home within George's Long Island surveying business's locality. Their budget ranged between $30,000 and $50,000—a significant sum in 1975 but modest by today's standards.

Notable Quote:

"George really didn't have high hopes when he called the Conklin Realty office in Massapequa Park." [07:36]

Despite viewing numerous properties, none resonated until Edith Evans, a realtor, presented them with the Amityville house at an asking price of $80,000—more than double their budget. Surprisingly, the Lutzes decided to proceed, intrigued by the house's features, including a heated swimming pool, boathouse, and expansive yard.

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Early Signs and Unsettling Experiences

Upon moving in on December 13, 1975, the Lutz family began experiencing a series of eerie and inexplicable events:

• Knocking and Shadows: George was awakened at 3:15 AM by loud knocking, initially believed to be the children but later traced to other parts of the house. He observed a shadowy figure near the boathouse, prompting suspicion and concern.

  Notable Quote:

  "I would have called the police and have them check out the area." [28:03]

• Behavioral Changes: George's demeanor shifted drastically. Once meticulous and patient, he became irritable, neglecting personal hygiene and exhibiting uncharacteristic behavior towards his stepchildren.

• Strange Phenomena:

  • Bleeding Walls: One of the most sensational claims was blood oozing from the walls.
  • Black Toilets and Swarms of Flies: Bathrooms had toilet bowls painted black emitting foul odors, and windows were inexplicably covered with house flies during winter.
  • Imaginary Friends: Melissa, the youngest child, spoke of a friend named Jody, whom only she could see, culminating in sightings of fiery red eyes outside the window.

  Notable Quote:

  "There's my boy Jody, my little pig friend. He wants to come in." [38:57]

• Physical Assaults: Reports included the house shaking violently, bed frames trembling, and an enormous hooded figure appearing near the stairs, intensifying the family's fear.

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Press Conference and Media Involvement

As the disturbances escalated, George and Kathy decided to leave the house, attributing their departure to "psychic phenomena" for personal safety. Their lawyer, William Weber, capitalized on their experiences by organizing a press conference, asserting that unseen forces might have influenced Ronald DeFeo Jr.'s actions.

Notable Quote:

"We are considering a motion for a new trial based on the strong forces that may have motivated DeFeo to kill." [61:25]

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Paranormal Investigations: The Warrens and Hans Holzer

Following the press conference, renowned paranormal investigators Ed and Lorraine Warren arrived to examine the house. Meanwhile, skeptic Hans Holzer conducted his investigation, looking for tangible evidence of hauntings.

• Ed and Lorraine Warren's Findings:

  • Claimed to sense negative entities and recommended an exorcism.
  • Produced a controversial photograph allegedly showing the ghost of John DeFeo with ominous red eyes.

  Notable Quote:

  "Lorraine stated that she felt the presence of a negative entity right from the bowels of the earth." [64:43]

• Hans Holzer's Investigation:

  • Suggested the house was built on a Shinnecock Indian burial ground, a claim later debunked by the Amityville Historical Society.
  • Identified mysterious halos around bullet holes in the walls.

  Notable Quote:

  "Holzer suggested that the Lutz's house had been built on an ancient Shinnecock Indian burial ground." [70:25]

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The Birth of "The Amityville Horror" Book and Its Controversies

Jay Anson, an author, was introduced to the Lutzes by Tam Mossman, an editor who advised them to seek better terms for their story. Anson co-authored the book "The Amityville Horror," presenting it as a true account of the Lutz family's paranormal experiences. The book achieved massive commercial success, selling over 10 million copies and spawning numerous film adaptations.

However, scrutiny soon followed:

• Inconsistencies and Debunking:

  • Historical Inaccuracies: Claims about the Shinnecock burial ground and witchcraft practices were refuted by the Amityville Historical Society.
  • Reverend Pecoraro's Testimony: Contrary to the book, Pecoraro denied performing a blessing at the house, revealing discrepancies in the Lutzes' accounts.
  • Hoaxes Exposed: William Weber later admitted in a 1979 People magazine interview that the Amityville story was fabricated to gain publicity and financial relief.

  Notable Quote:

  "We created this story over many bottles of wine that George Lutz was drinking." [89:35]

• Lawsuits and Legal Battles:

  • The Lutzes sued Weber and his associate Hoffman for invasion of privacy, seeking $4.5 million in damages, which were eventually dismissed due to lack of substantial evidence.
  • Controversies surrounding the book's authenticity damaged the credibility of William Weber and raised questions about the Lutzes' honesty.

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Impact on the Amityville Community and Legacy

The sensationalism surrounding the Amityville Horror had profound effects on the town of Amityville:

• Tourism and Harassment: Subsequent homeowners reported thousands of curious onlookers trespassing, leaving trash, and disrupting daily life, leading to frustration among residents.

  Notable Quote:

  "They left trash everywhere and even had picnics on the neighbor's lawns." [96:00]

• Market Value of the House: The house remained a prime real estate asset, selling for $1.5 million in January 2023—a staggering 1,775% increase from the Lutzes' purchase price.

• Cultural Icon: Despite numerous debunkings, the Amityville Horror remains a staple in horror folklore, continuously inspiring books, movies, and paranormal investigations.

  Notable Quote:

  "The legacy of the Lutzes and the Amityville Horror has persisted for nearly 50 years." [77:00]

---

Conclusion: The Thin Line Between Fact and Fiction

Ash and Elena wrap up the episode by highlighting the ethical dilemmas posed by the Amityville Horror case. They emphasize the importance of respecting real-life tragedies without exploiting them for personal gain. The hosts critique the Lutzes' and Weber's actions as manipulative and financially driven, undermining genuine investigations and the memory of the DeFeo family.

Final Thoughts:

• Respect Boundaries: Encouragement to respect homeowners and communities affected by such tales.
• Critical Thinking: Urging listeners to differentiate between sensationalized fiction and verifiable facts.
• Legacy of Deception: The Amityville Horror serves as a cautionary tale about the consequences of fraudulently capitalizing on tragedy.

Notable Quote:

"You're just taking responsibility off of him." [66:23]

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Upcoming Episodes and Final Remarks

As the episode concludes, Ash and Elena tease upcoming episodes focusing on other true crime stories, including Jerry Brudos, a serial killer whose actions are as disturbing as they are infamous. They encourage listeners to stay tuned for more in-depth explorations of dark and twisted tales.

Closing Remark:

"We hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird, but not so weird that you take an entire family's tragedy and turn them into a book for your own personal gain." [103:53]

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Takeaways:

• Amityville Horror Case: A blend of genuine tragedy and fabricated paranormal claims led to widespread fame and financial success but at the cost of credibility and ethical integrity.
• Media Manipulation: The involvement of legal advisors and authors showcased how narratives can be distorted for personal agendas.
• Community Impact: The small town of Amityville grappled with unwanted attention and the invasion of privacy from curious onlookers.
• Enduring Myth: Despite debunking efforts, the Amityville Horror continues to captivate and terrify audiences worldwide.

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Disclaimer: The narrative presented in this summary is based on the podcast transcript and reflects the hosts' interpretations and opinions. Listeners are encouraged to explore multiple sources for a comprehensive understanding of the Amityville Horror case.

Transcript

[Ash]

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[Elena]

You're listening to a Morbid Network podcast.

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[Ash]

Hey, weirdos. I'm Ash.

[Elena]

And I'm Elena.

[Ash]

And this is a sickly movie. This is a. We both have Covid recording. Morbid.

[Elena]

This episode brought to you by the Rona.

[Ash]

This episode brought to you by Germs.

[Elena]

Yeah, so we just. We just came off of my little mini book tour, and we came home with a present, so.

[Ash]

And the present was Covid.

[Elena]

Yeah. So this is. We're recording in two separate places, which we haven't done in a long, long, long, long time.

[Ash]

It's giving, like, pandemic 20, 20 days.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And I, like, lived with Drew. Well, I lived with you for a little bit, but then I went to live with Drew, and we had to zoom in. Asian record. I'm working on my home office, but it's not quite done yet.

[Elena]

You know, we do what we can.

[Ash]

Do here, and we just.

[Elena]

We weren't gonna not give you this episode.

[Ash]

Are you kidding me? That never Would we say no episode.

[Elena]

We did wait a day.

[Ash]

That accent was good. Sorry.

[Elena]

That was good.

[Ash]

How dare you not acknowledge that?

[Elena]

That was really good. But we did wait a day to record it. We were going to record it yesterday, but yesterday, I literally was not among the living.

[Ash]

Yeah, my Covid's not bad. Like, I came up positive, and I was like, wow, that's weird. I feel, like, pretty fine.

[Elena]

Yeah, You're. You're the asymptomatic bitch.

[Ash]

I've never had Covid asymptomatic, so that's.

[Elena]

It's weird. It's weird to have an asymptomatic.

[Ash]

Yeah. Because I feel fine, but I'm not allowed to go anywhere.

[Elena]

Yeah. Like, it's fine. Yeah.

[Ash]

You, on the other hand, Elena FaceTimed me yesterday, and I'm usually one to, like, make people feel better. I think I. Mikey. It was me, Mikey and Elena FaceTiming, and I audibly gasped.

[Elena]

She went, oh, my God.

[Ash]

I've never seen you look so sick.

[Elena]

I was the sickest I have ever been yesterday. I feel still terrible today, but I feel much better than I did yesterday.

[Ash]

You look a million times better. When I opened the Zoom, I said, there she is. Thank God. That's the sister. I know. It was really scary shit we were working with yesterday.

[Elena]

It was real rough.

[Ash]

Yeah. But it's okay.

[Elena]

But you know what? Here we are. I'm rallying.

[Ash]

I'm in a place called space.

[Elena]

Yeah. So what we. What we're doing for you today is we did. So I covered the Defeo murders last time, which were horrific and terrible, and Tragic. And we gave you a little bit of the how. You know, his lawyer, William Webber, there was claiming that there was voices that were telling him to do it in the house. Just a little sneaky peeky into what was to come.

[Ash]

Yep.

[Elena]

William Webber, really. He's really the mastermind behind the. At least the nugget that made this happen. And today we're going to cover the Amityville Horror conspiracy.

[Ash]

Oh, man.

[Elena]

It's a conspiracy. Because for a long, long time, it was considered true. Like, completely true.

[Ash]

I grew up thinking this was, like, real.

[Elena]

Me too.

[Ash]

Real as fuck.

[Elena]

And the thing is, I think there's truths in there, but it has been exaggerated to such a degree. Like, they didn't just go into this thinking, like, let's make a crazy horror story and we'll pass it off as true. They took it into such a place that I was like, how would you ever think no one would question some of these things.

[Ash]

The Bleeding walls is where they lost me. Even as a young youth, I was like, I've never seen that.

[Elena]

Yeah. And it's like. And what's crazier is I think we covered a case. It was like a case. Of course, I can't recall where it was.

[Ash]

Oh, I know exactly what you're talking about.

[Elena]

The house bled.

[Ash]

It's literally called the Bleeding House. My dad sent it to me. I think it was a Patreon episode.

[Elena]

Yeah, we're gonna. Then, you know what? Maybe we'll revive it again, because we should. It's a very interesting one, because that one, I. I kind of believe that, actually.

[Ash]

Okay. So I said they lost me with the Bleeding Wells, because Amityville did. But I completely believed this other. Other couple.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Bleeding Walls. Because their walls were. I think they were bleeding less intensely.

[Elena]

Yeah, I think so.

[Ash]

It's all about the. The level of blood with which you get.

[Elena]

There's a few things in this story that you just say you took it too far. You took it too far. And in the end, we'll see what happens here, and we'll see the possible reasons for this be going the way it went. But again. Exactly. But again, I think that given what happened in this house, there's gotta be something going on in there for sure.

[Ash]

Yeah, I'm sure there's, like, leftover residual bad energy.

[Elena]

So let's start off in 1975, shall we?

[Ash]

I love the 70s, so we fucking shall.

[Elena]

Let's go. Newlyweds, George and Kathy Lutz started looking for a home for themselves in Kathy's three kids from A previous marriage.

[Ash]

Lovely.

[Elena]

She had Daniel, who was 9 years old, Christopher, 7 years old, and Melissa, 5 years old.

[Ash]

Little youths.

[Elena]

Little youths, little babies. George needed to stay in the Long island area because he was the owner of a Long island surveying company. So really that was the only criteria that was like, non negotiable was that they needed to stay in the area.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

Other than that, they really. Other things they had on the list of, like, things they were really looking for was they really wanted to be on the water. And they also needed the house to fall into their budget of 30,000 to $50,000.

[Ash]

Was that a lot for back then?

[Elena]

Yeah. Like. Well, it wasn't a lot, but it was house money.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

Back then, you know?

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Like that was right. Now we look at that and we go, holy shit.

[Ash]

I'm like, I don't even think you could buy, like a used vehicle for that.

[Elena]

No. Probably not now, but in 1975, you.

[Ash]

Could definitely buy a house, get a nice waterfront property.

[Elena]

Could you conceivably get the Amityville house? No.

[Ash]

Yeah. No.

[Elena]

Which is interesting. So. And again, remember, that's their budget. 30 to $50,000 was where they had to stay.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

So by the time they decided to check out the little town of Amityville, George and Kathy had actually already seen about 60 or so homes in their price range.

[Ash]

Damn.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

You guys gotta pick one.

[Elena]

Yeah. I say this all the time because I have one of my children has my husband's inability to make a decision where they get, like, paralysis about deciding about things. And I always tell her, I'm like, you could look forever for the right.

[Ash]

Thing and you'll never find it.

[Elena]

You'll never. Because you'll always be thinking that there's something else out there that's better than this one thing that you chose. You gotta make a decision and you gotta stand strong in your decision.

[Ash]

It's like wedding dress shopping. Once you find the one, stop looking.

[Elena]

Stop looking.

[Ash]

That's your best advice that you gave me?

[Elena]

Yeah. Because all. You'll always keep thinking there's something just a little bit better that you haven't seen yet.

[Ash]

And if you have that mindset, you're gonna just keep finding that something better, and then you're just gonna drive yourself insane.

[Elena]

Yeah. And you' be happy with what you choose.

[Ash]

So it seems like that's what happened to George and Kath here.

[Elena]

Yeah. I'm like, you guys gotta stop. But none of these other homes were really singing to them enough for them to even consider putting in an offer. So they hadn't even put in an offer.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

Because of this, George really didn't have high hopes. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge. When? Because they had that sign out there that said high hopes. I was, like, half. He didn't really have high hopes when he called the Conklin Realty office in Massapequa Park. But the realtor on the other end of the line, Edith Evans, told George that, you know what? You're in luck, because a new house just came on the market, and it is a little outside of your price range, but it really meets your other needs. And I think you should at least look at it.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

Now, interesting that it's out of their price range, because it seems like that was one of their, like, main things was they were not coming out of that budget. They really couldn't.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

So, like, why even look at this one if it's outside of your price range?

[Ash]

Oh, sometimes it's just fun, but it's.

[Elena]

Not because you can't afford it. So it's like, you're just really terrible.

[Ash]

But also fun.

[Elena]

Yeah. But it's like, you can't have it. So the house at 112 Ocean Avenue, does that address sound familiar from last episode? It did seem to meet the Lutz's needs and then some. Really. It was an old Dutch colonial. It had a massive yard, an enclosed porch with a wet bar. It had a heated swimming pool.

[Ash]

Oh, mother.

[Elena]

Right. It had more than enough room for the kids, and it was on the water and even had a dock and a boathouse.

[Ash]

Damn. I didn't realize it had a boathouse, too.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah. The Defeos were very, very wealthy.

[Ash]

I guess so.

[Elena]

Now, of course, as Edith Evans had already warned them, it was out of their price range at $80,000. Remember, their budget is between 30 and 50.

[Ash]

It's, like, more than double. More than double their price range.

[Elena]

Yeah. I was like, why even bother looking at this?

[Ash]

Yeah, that's. That's not a great real estate agent.

[Elena]

No, that's way outside of your price range. But there was no denying that it was an absolutely beautiful property and exactly what they were looking for when they set out to buy a house. So they had to consider it.

[Ash]

All right.

[Elena]

When Edith told George the price over the phone, they expected to find it, you know, in badly need of repair, to be honest, or have some other expensive defect. Because although that was way out of their price range, it was much lower than what that house was worth.

[Ash]

It sounds like it.

[Elena]

Yeah. When they saw it, they were like, what? Like this is $80,000. It's fucking massive. It's got a boathouse, it's got all the shit.

[Ash]

That's when you ask who died here.

[Elena]

Exactly, exactly. And he was even coming furnished.

[Ash]

Wow. Oh. That's when you absolutely ask who died there.

[Elena]

Because what's even crazier is it had been on the market for nearly a year and no one had put in offers on it.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

That's when.

[Ash]

I'm just kidding.

[Elena]

No, that's when you said there's many red flags being thrown up here.

[Ash]

It's like the TikTok guy running around with the giant red flags.

[Elena]

Yes. If it seems too good to be true, it might be too good to be true. So when George asked about, you know, the relatively low asking price and, you know, the lack of interest for about a year on this thing, the realtor, you know what? She didn't. I gotta give it to her. She didn't bother to dance around the reality of the situation. She wasn't like, well, you know, she was like, yeah. So in November of this year, 24 or of last year, excuse me, 24 year old Ronald DeFeo Jr. Had snapped one night when room by room, shooting and killing all six members of his family with.35 caliber rifle. Incredible crude, including small children.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

She was like, so.

[Ash]

So that's why I would have ran for the hills. I would have gone, yeah, okay, well, we're looking at house number 62 today.

[Elena]

Yeah, you know what? And she even let them know that at the trial, DeFeo's lawyer said that the young man was insane when he committed the murders. And for months that he had been hearing voices in the house telling him to kill. And you know, that there was all the tales in the town, like, you know, everybody had their own little like myths and legends about the house now that the house is what made them do it. Of course, everyone in New York and perhaps even the entire country at this point had heard of the murders. So she was like this, you know, this is the house. Like, you know, the murders, you definitely know the house. She actually, she was like, what? It was actually strange to her that they didn't recognize the house because it was everywhere. And if you guys remember, the original Amityville house has those very iconic windows that look like eyes. Yep. They're not there anymore. The new owners have since taken them out so that it will not be as recognizable, which. Good for them.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

But yeah, she was like, you know, it's like very iconic looking house. I'm actually surprised that you've never seen this. And that you didn't know what you were walking into, to be quite honest.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

And what's even wilder is if either either of the Lutzes had been play paying close attention when they walked through the house, they would have noticed there was a scarring in bullet holes that remained from the murders.

[Ash]

Serious. Yeah, that.

[Elena]

There was even some faint chalk outlines from the ongoing investigation into the murders still in the house.

[Ash]

No. Yeah, you gotta run. And meanwhile, they're like, where do we sign?

[Elena]

Yeah, like, that's. So to Edith's complete surprise, George and Kathy insisted the home's recent tragic and gruesome events, quote, weren't something that would bother them when it came to choosing a house.

[Ash]

Which, like, okay, I'm like, so what does bother you? What's on your note? What's on your list?

[Elena]

What's. What's your, like, boundary lines?

[Ash]

Do you have them?

[Elena]

And here's the thing I can understand, like, the new owners of this house. Like, the owners now.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

You know, so much time has gone by. That's the thing I can understand. There's a little bit of distance, you know, like, it's. It's history. History has happened in that house. It's tragic, awful history. But, yes, it's history. But to do it within, like, the same year, I feel like that's like. I don't know, I feel like the energy, because you and I have said it. Walking into, you know, the S.K. pierce mansion and especially walking into the Lizzie Borden house. The Lizzie Borden house has an energy you can't describe. And that was how long ago? Hundreds of years ago at this point.

[Ash]

Hundreds. Yeah.

[Elena]

So it's like, I don't understand how this house within that year didn't have the most dark and heavy energy.

[Ash]

I'm sure it did.

[Elena]

And I feel like it had to.

[Ash]

Do you think, like, obviously we're going to get there and in the story where it kind of comes out that they were big fakers, do you think they were looking for something like this and they. They knew about the Amityville horror?

[Elena]

I don't even think they were looking. I think it was just a happy accident that they were able to. And I think once they. I think they knew when they went into this house what it was.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

Like, I don't think they were. They were ignorant to the fact that this was the DeFeo house.

[Ash]

Yeah. I just, like, with all the news coverage and everything and having been so soon ye. And they were in New York, I just don't know. Yeah, they're in New York. I mean, come on.

[Elena]

Yeah, that's the thing. I mean, maybe I'm wrong, maybe they didn't know, but they definitely rolled with it, that's for sure.

[Ash]

I can't say it's something I would do.

[Elena]

No.

[Ash]

But I'm huge on energy, so.

[Elena]

Yeah. Now they. They told Edith, you know, it's not a problem. They said neither of them were particularly religious. They weren't really believers in the paranormal. So the murders, while very tragic and upsetting, they just said it was kind of just historical fact at this point. And I was like, historical fact. Within the year, despite being astronomically outside of their budget, they couldn't deny that the house was a bargain for what it was, and it was exactly what they were looking for. So George and Kathy put in an offer at the asking price, plus they added an additional 400 for the furniture.

[Ash]

Wow.

[Elena]

I know. Which was accepted by the seller. And on December 13, just weeks after Ronald Defeo was convicted for the murder of his entire family in that house, George, Kathy and the kids moved into the Amityville house, setting into motion a chain of events that would forever change not only the Lutz's lives, but the entire town of Amityville.

[Ash]

Even today, I know they're probably like, fuck off.

[Elena]

Yeah. Amityville is literally like, fuck you. Let's.

[Ash]

Because like we said, it's like a really nice area. Like a.

[Elena]

It is.

[Ash]

It's like a quiet coastal town.

[Elena]

Yeah, it's a little seaside town. Like, very cute, very sweet, very, very cutesy. Cutesy. And very. Not part of that vibe. Now, as George, Kathy and a small collection of friends were unloading the trailer and moving things into the house, the couple's priest, Reverend Ralph Pecoraro, arrived to.

[Ash]

Bless the house, even though they said they weren't religious.

[Elena]

Thank you. Because. So neither George nor Kathy considered themselves particularly religious. They did attend church on a fairly regular basis, and the reverend, according to them, had been helpful to them when they were getting married, like, that. He. He had been like, part of their whole, like, marriage process, which to me is religious. If you. If you have a priest on call, like your priest on call, you are somewhat religious like that. So, like, maybe I'm wrong, I don't know, but I'm like, I don't have a priest on call. So I don't. And I consider myself not religious.

[Ash]

Same.

[Elena]

But I feel like if you've got a priest, there's a little nugget of religion in there.

[Ash]

If you have one of you have a priest on call. If a priest helped you throughout your wedding process, and then a priest is coming to bless your house that you just bought.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Wake up.

[Elena]

Religious. You're religious and that's fine.

[Ash]

Yeah. There's nothing wrong with that.

[Elena]

Like, do you.

[Ash]

It's just weird to say you're not when you very clearly are.

[Elena]

That's. That's part of the strangeness of the Lutzes. And. And it gets even stranger when it comes to this priest, I bet. Yeah. So, you know, of course they said they were going to have their priest, even though they're not religious, come bless their new home. Like, why wouldn't they?

[Ash]

Yeah, totally.

[Elena]

And, you know, According to them, Rev. Pecoraro was more than happy to bless their new home. But when the day finally came, according to all the reports, he couldn't shake this feeling of just, like, yuckiness, like, unease that had been with him since he'd woken up that morning.

[Ash]

Well, yeah, you know that you're going to a house where a family was just brutalized.

[Elena]

I mean, that'll do it.

[Ash]

Like, I would wake up feeling a little funky as well.

[Elena]

The same. He said the feeling stuck with him through his lunch appointment with friends. But he was still there when he. You know, when they pulled in the driveway, he arrived. He just decided, you know, I'm gonna go and I'm gonna do it. So he knocked on the front door, they let him in. He went room to room conducting the blessing ritual, which included, like, you know, flicking holy water around and, you know, uttering prayers kind of thing. Like everything we've seen of, like, somebody blessing something, you know?

[Ash]

Sure.

[Elena]

The ritual was one he'd conducted a billion times for parishioners over the years. Like, this is a very normal thing that people do.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

So he'd done it a ton of times. It was almost like muscle memory at this point. You know what I mean? It's a very. That he knows how to do it. He's got a lot of experience. But he said this time was different because when he entered one of the rooms upstairs, which he later learned was John and Mark DeFeo's room.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

When they shared together, he flicked the holy water, started saying the prayer, and all of a sudden, from behind him, he heard a deep voice of a man clearly say, get out.

[Ash]

I would leave.

[Elena]

Yeah, I would.

[Ash]

I would.

[Elena]

I mean, I think that's very thing. Yeah, I think that's. I mean, this person is telling you, get out. I think it's time to get out.

[Ash]

Bye.

[Elena]

I would Leave. You don't need to ask me twice. You don't need to say it twice. So it startled him, so he whirled around, not knowing what to expect, but no one was there. So he was like, oh. So he left that room immediately and quickly finished blessing the other rooms of the house because he was there to do a job. So he's like, I'm going to finish it, but. And he's like, and obviously this house needs the blessing because that just happened.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

So then he all but ran downstairs towards the door, and George and Kathy thanked him for coming. And they were like, oh, do you want to stay for dinner? But he was like, no, thank you. I have other plans by. And he just left.

[Ash]

The priest said, fuck that.

[Elena]

He said, absolutely not. Good luck. So as they walked out to the car, the reverend mentioned that he'd recently learned the house had been where the notorious DeFeo murders happened. And to his surprise, he said. George just said, yeah. Like, we knew it when we bought the house. Like, it's fine. He's like, that's why we figured it was such a bargain, so it worked out for us. And he was like, oh.

[Ash]

He said, two thumbs up.

[Elena]

Yeah, that's totally fine. We knew that. So they just kind of chatted for a bit about the tragedy before Pecoraro got in his car and left without telling them what had just happened in the bedroom upstairs. So he didn't say it to him.

[Ash]

You gotta tell people when that shit kind of happens.

[Elena]

You gotta let them know, you know.

[Ash]

Just for good measure.

[Elena]

Now, according to George and Kathy Lutz, things started happening almost immediately after they moved into the house and had it blessed.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

On November 19th, or, excuse me, December 19th, George was woken up at 3:15 in the morning by a very loud knocking at the front door. Ew. So he was like, why the fuck is someone at our house in the middle of the night? And why are they knocking like that? And he sat there and kind of listened for a minute, and then he was like, wait, it's not coming from the front door. But he said it was coming from somewhere off to his left in the bedroom. Like he couldn't figure it out. Like somewhere else in the house.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

So he got out of bed and he started investigating the rooms on the second floor. And he assumed one of the kids was up, like making noise or something.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

But he checked and all the kids were asleep. So he had just entered the sewing room, which was across from the main bedroom, which was this room. The sewing room was John and Mark Defeo's bedroom.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

And he said as he was in there looking around, something outside on the lawn caught his eye.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

So from the window upstairs, George could see that something was moving outside by the boathouse. He said it looked like a person, but like, also not a person. It was vaguely the shape of a man, but he couldn't tell any features. He was pretty far away. So he called out of the window, hey, who's there?

[Ash]

No. Call the police.

[Elena]

And the commotion caught the attention of Harry, the family's dog, who started trailing the shadow through the yard because he was like, I'm going to fuck you up.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

So George, George called out again and this time instructed Harry, go get him. But the dogs was on a leash, like was tied up, so he couldn't get as far as the figure was.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

So George went downstairs to investigate further, but after a few minutes he was like, I can't find it. Whatever it was is gone. So he tried to go back to sleep, but he honestly couldn't go back to sleep. He was just laying in bed worrying about whether he made a mistake buying this house. Essentially.

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[Ash]

Hon money.

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[Ash]

It's actually a set.

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[Ash]

I would call the police and have them like, check out the area.

[Elena]

Thank you. This is literally when I always have issues here. At this point, I'm calling the National Guard and being like, there's a shadow figure outside of my. But like, fuck that. I'm never going back to sleep.

[Ash]

Yeah. When that happened where it was like, it was like 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning and it was like the middle of a blizzard. And I. I talk about it on the Simplisafe ad. If you guys listen to the ads.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

I got like a knock on the door between like three or four in the morning and it happened like consecutively until like 6am I called the police.

[Elena]

Hell yeah.

[Ash]

And they checked out the. And they found nothing but footprints. How terrifying is that?

[Elena]

I hate that so much.

[Ash]

I bought a Simply Safe the very next day. Baby.

[Elena]

Hell yeah, that.

[Ash]

But yeah, like, why would you not call someone?

[Elena]

That's the thing. Like, you're not. And this is. I mean, it's 1975. So I was going to be like, get a security system. I don't know how badass they were back then.

[Ash]

So, I mean, at least it's something. I mean, you have to have them back.

[Elena]

Then at least you have a dog. Dogs will fuck people up.

[Ash]

That's true.

[Elena]

Especially when he. He was able to say, go get him. And Harry was off to business. You know, to be able to be.

[Ash]

In a place of sickem. Boy, I'm obsessed.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah, it's the best. Where we already have Sid and Blanche on, like, they're the sweetest pups. And then when we say get it, they'll.

[Ash]

They'll fuck you up.

[Elena]

They'll get it. And they're. They're big ems, so it's a nice feeling. It's a nice feeling. They were gonna up a coyote the other night. I was like, don't do that. Come back in.

[Ash]

Yeah, no, we. We don't need that.

[Elena]

No, we made them come back in because we're like, do not attack a coyote, please. But they had zero fear. They were like, that.

[Ash]

That's their family. That's their family. They're looking.

[Elena]

Yeah, Those are you. Those are my. Right there. Literally.

[Ash]

Quite literally. Yep.

[Advertiser]

Quite literally.

[Ash]

So.

[Elena]

But when he said he just, like, went back upstairs and tried to go back to sleep, I was like, ah, no.

[Ash]

Also, how do you just. How do you go back to sleep after that? Like, no, I don't know.

[Elena]

And he didn't. I mean, he was definitely up all night, so. But it's like, you have three kids in the house. There's no way I could sleep after that.

[Ash]

Yeah. No.

[Elena]

So in the days after that, there was obvious, like, tension that started forming in the house that Kathy couldn't explain. She said from the moment she had introduced George to her kids, because he's their stepfather.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

They had all gotten along very well. Like, they loved him. He loved them. Like, since they got married, he. They had, on their own volition, started calling him dad. Wow. Like, they. It was a good fit.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

But ever since they moved into the house, George's appreciation for the children, we'll say, had been wearing thin.

[Ash]

Oh, no.

[Elena]

And he'd started losing his temper with them a lot. And he'd never, ever done this before, according to Kathy.

[Ash]

Had he lived with children before?

[Elena]

He had. I guess they had been together a lot. Like, you know, they had. He had never lost his temper, like, or shown an inclination that he would lose his temper.

[Ash]

Neither did some of my stepdads until we lived with them.

[Elena]

That's so awful. But, well. And he started referring to them as brats to Her. Which he never did. Like, he never did that.

[Ash]

I'd square the fuck up.

[Elena]

Oh, that's. That's the thing. So. And then he called them misbehaved monsters who wouldn't listen. He called them unruly children who much must be severely punished. Baby, baby, when I tell you this man would be in orbit at this point. I'd be like, get the out of my family. Get the out of my house. Yeah.

[Ash]

I'd be like, you can wear with the shadow man. Bye.

[Elena]

Yeah, you go live in the boathouse, sir. Like, see you later. Yeah.

[Ash]

No, your kids come first.

[Elena]

Yeah, like, fuck.

[Ash]

And he's talking shit about your kids.

[Elena]

Yes. No. You know the sound. It's Christopher Walken on Tick Tock when he says, you're talking to my guy all wrong.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Elena]

Do it again, I'll stab you in the face with a soldering iron.

[Ash]

That's you.

[Elena]

That's my energy. Yeah. So when it comes to the kids, you talking to my guy.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Now again, though, they recognized that this was a big change in behavior. So much. It wasn't like a change like, oh, I guess he's just getting used to living with kids. It was like, who is this man?

[Ash]

Like, unrecognizable.

[Elena]

Yeah, an unrecognizable man. Even George started to notice a change in everyone's personality, especially his and author Jay Anson, who wrote a book on this subject that we'll link in the show notes. He said it was not a big thing, just little bits and pieces here and there. So it was like it was a big change in his personality, but it was like that it would come in small bits gradually, you know, like, it wasn't an overall change. It would suddenly, like, start rolling out. Yeah, like there was that big change. It was like big chunks of changes, I should say, like a big change in his personality with the kids. So that happens all at once.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

But nothing. Nothing really else. So he's still the same George other than that. But then a few days later, he was always very meticulous when it came to his hygiene. He was a very clean man. He kept himself together, we respect. But he stopped. Yeah. But then a few days later, not only is he being shitty about the kids, but now he's being shitty about the kids and irritable. And he's also not shaving or showering every day. And he would go days without going into his work, like his office.

[Ash]

He's irritable, he smells bad, and he's getting lazy.

[Elena]

Yes.

[Ash]

That's no Bueno.

[Elena]

Get out of here. So before they moved in, George had planned to move his office into the house. But now that they were all moved in and unpacked, he just abandoned that plan. He just wasn't doing anything.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

Now, George wasn't the only one experiencing strange shit in the house or like, you know, a change. Kathy was also starting to experience things, but she was starting to see and feel things that were like, off putting. Now, a few days before Christmas, Kathy was standing in the kitchen writing out a list of gifts that they still needed to buy for people when she felt someone or something, according to her, come up from behind and embrace her. Okay, I'm not mad at it now, she wasn't startled. She said she weirdly felt comforted by the presence.

[Ash]

Huh.

[Elena]

And she said it seemed to reach out and take her hand very gently and gave it a soft pat like her mother used to do when she was young.

[Ash]

Oh, wow.

[Elena]

So that's kind of like beautiful, huh? I know, I'm like, was that like, you know, the mom maybe? Was that Mrs. DeFeo or.

[Ash]

Don't some people. I don't want to get there before you do, but don't some people think that there's a portal?

[Elena]

Oh, yeah.

[Ash]

So maybe.

[Elena]

Sure.

[Ash]

People through or something? Like, can we find out?

[Elena]

Yeah, there you go. Who knows?

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

So the illusion, though, was broken by the sound of Chris calling from the other room, screaming for his mom to come upstairs. So the boys were in the upstairs bathroom looking down at the toilet bowl. And Kathy looked in and saw that the bowl was entirely black.

[Ash]

Ew.

[Elena]

Like it had been painted black.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

Almost like that's how black it was. So she flushed the toilet several times, but it stayed.

[Ash]

Ew.

[Elena]

So she was like, I'm confused about this because I just scrubbed the bathroom a few days earlier. Everything was spotless. The toilet did not look like this. She was like, what the fuck? From down the hall, Kathy could hear her other son, Danny, yelling for her to come quick to the other bathroom. Danny was in the bathroom off of his parents bedroom to get cleaning supplies, to try to help clean that. That toilet bowl. But when he went inside, he saw that that one was completely black too, and it was emitting a foul odor.

[Ash]

Maybe you got a septic problem.

[Elena]

That's what I'm saying. So the stench was so bad that it forced them out into the hall and they started yelling for George, who noticed the smell as soon as he got to the second floor landing. It was that bad.

[Ash]

Gross.

[Elena]

So they ran from room to room, opening all the windows. But when Kathy got into the sewing room, which again, was John and Mark DeFeo's bedroom, she was stunned to find that both the windows were covered with black house flies.

[Ash]

I would vomit.

[Elena]

And it wasn't like a few flies. It was, like, covered.

[Ash]

Ew.

[Elena]

Now, it's not crazy for a New England home to have problems with flies.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Like, we all can confirm that. We all get flies. Even if you're the cleanest house in the world during the summer, you're gonna get flies.

[Ash]

But not.

[Elena]

That's just the way it is.

[Ash]

Not to like, cover all your windows well.

[Elena]

And also remember, this is the dead of winter.

[Ash]

Oh, right. This is December. Right.

[Elena]

You shouldn't be having a problem with flies. They're pretty dormant in the winter.

[Ash]

And, like, dead.

[Elena]

Yeah, like. And dead.

[Ash]

And, like, not alive.

[Elena]

Yeah. So things escalated from there. Within a few days, five year old Melissa began frequently mentioning that she had a new friend named Jody. And Kathy asked her daughter one afternoon, is that one of your new dolls? And she said, no, Jody's a pig. He's my friend. No one can see him but me.

[Ash]

The way my entire body just got covered in goosebumps.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

That's when you throw the whole. Get away. You say, you know what?

[Elena]

The whole kid away.

[Advertiser]

You are such a little sweetheart.

[Ash]

But we have two others who are also pretty great. So I got to give you the boot, babe.

[Elena]

You know what? You've ran out. You're welcome here. So one evening, as George was putting Melissa to bed, she started talking about Jody. And George was like, okay, like, where did your friend go? And she said, he'll be right back. He had to go outside for a minute. So, like, Kathy, George was assuming that Jody, you know, was Melissa's new imaginary friend, which isn't alarming for kids to create, especially at that age.

[Ash]

Yeah, no.

[Elena]

And they'll get very, like, serious about their imaginary friends. They'll tell you where they are, what they're doing. Like, you're sitting on my new friend. You know, like that kind of thing.

[Ash]

Luke Skywalker, back in the day. My boy.

[Elena]

Yeah, your boy, exactly. Naughty Martha Skeleton. But I had Naughty Martha who did all the things that I did that you did not. But that's so. It's like. It's weird and alarming when it happens, but also not because you're like, this is a kid thing.

[Ash]

It's a very normal stage of development.

[Elena]

Yeah. So at this point, George and Kathy are both thinking that Jody's a new pig friend, that she's got sure. But that night, after he tucked her into bed, Melissa all of a sudden said, there he is, Daddy, and pointed towards the window. And he was like, oh, okay. So he's like, I'm gonna look. So when he look, turns to look, he said he saw two fiery red eyes staring at him through the second floor window.

[Ash]

Well.

[Elena]

And. Yeah.

[Ash]

Bye.

[Elena]

Bye. And she said, that's Jody. He wants to come in.

[Ash]

I'd say he has to sleep outside tonight, unfortunately.

[Elena]

Yeah. He has to sleep outside forever.

[Ash]

Eternity.

[Elena]

Yeah. He's a pig. He likes it out there. Oh, yeah. And he. She was not afraid of Jody. That's the thing. Like, there was no fear. She was excited.

[Ash]

Well, kids learn.

[Elena]

There's Jody.

[Ash]

That's the thing. Yeah.

[Elena]

There's my boy Jody, my little pig friend. He wants to come in, let my guy in. Let my guy. And you're talking to my guy all wrong. So he was like, okay. No. So he was like, I'm gonna say goodnight. He'll find his way in, I guess. Bye. So over the course of their time in the house, the attacks on the Lutzes went from unseen forces. And then all of a sudden, and that. You can almost, like, believe that there was energy. There was energy that maybe they were hearing things. Maybe you could see something out of the corner of your eye, like that kind of thing. If they had just stuck with that, I would have been like, probably.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

100.

[Elena]

Like, I probably would have believed that.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Elena]

But then it started, and even this. It. Like the ephemeral stuff, like going from, like, smelling foul odors kind of thing. Like, I. Even. That I can get.

[Ash]

I believe in that because I feel like there's, like, science behind that.

[Elena]

Yeah. And it's like you can even go with the infestation of flies and the disembodied voices, that kind of stuff. You're like, I believe that that could have probably happened. And then it started getting physically assaultive. And this is where I'm out. This is where I get. And it's not because I don't believe that you can be physically assaulted in the way that they were.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

I don't know, though.

[Ash]

So I don't. I don't know a lot about the ways that they were physically assaulted. I know, like, the big things in the case, like the bleeding walls and the flies and the priest and all that I told. I agree with you. I believe you could be physically assaulted. But I'm interested to hear how they were.

[Elena]

So one evening, everyone's asleep, and they claimed to have Been woken up by knocking sounds that quickly escalated to the point that it was so crazy that the windows cracked and the doors were blown off the hinges.

[Ash]

Okay. Unless it's a hurricane, I don't know if I believe you.

[Elena]

Yeah, like let says, you really had me going for a minute there. I'm. You lost me here.

[Ash]

It's the window. You know what? It's the windows cracking. I would believe that a door got blown open because, like, I've seen that.

[Elena]

Oh, no, it didn't get blown open. It got blown off the hinges.

[Ash]

Oh, sorry. Bye.

[Elena]

No, yeah, like, oh, you tell me a door got blown open for sure. Yes, absolutely.

[Ash]

Off the hinges.

[Elena]

Blown off the hinges.

[Ash]

No hurricane in sight.

[Elena]

No, no. Yeah. So also. So that happened. And then even though George is slowly sinking into becoming a feral human being at this point, he's also finding himself constantly freezing in the house. Like, could not get warm. And he would spend hours every day just sitting in front of the fire trying to get warm.

[Ash]

Oh, I don't like that at all.

[Elena]

Yeah, so this, this next one is the one where I say, well, if the. If the door is blown off the hinges and the windows cracking didn't make you go, huh, Then I feel like this one probably should.

[Ash]

Okay, let's go, girls.

[Elena]

So one night in January when they were sleeping, Kathy and George, you know, were suddenly woken up because Kathy was lifted off the bed by an unseen force and George watched her be carried off into the direction.

[Ash]

She can't even get through it. She said. She said, I'm not there.

[Elena]

She's picturing watching John be cared by.

[Ash]

Oh, no, that's silly. That's silly goose.

[Elena]

I just can't. So she got carried off in the direction of the closet. In the closet. They had not found a use for this closet apparently yet. I don't. It's a closet.

[Ash]

Some fucking clothes in there. I don't know.

[Elena]

You should use it as a closet.

[Ash]

Put your shoes in there.

[Elena]

I guess so. Oh, I'm crying. So I don't know what happened here. Apparently she. She got carried off to the closet and I. The next day. So apparently they dropped her and she was fine.

[Ash]

She just.

[Elena]

The next day there, George went over to investigate said closet because his wife was carried off into the wild blue yonder over there. So he was like, I should. I should see what's going on over here.

[Ash]

I love that there's no additional detail of that night. Just she got carried over to the closet and then the next morning he went to check it out. I'm like, what about the in between time? Did you. Did she get up off the floor? Did you help her? Did you. Did you stay the night there? Did she get picked up again? Was she yelling?

[Elena]

I need so much more.

[Ash]

Was she scared? Was she crying? I would cry probably. Did you just go back into your bed after that and you're like, whoa, that was crazy. What a ride.

[Advertiser]

Hello.

[Ash]

I'm crying. I was watching Scooby Doo last night, and that is giving major Scooby Doo vibes.

[Elena]

Oh, what you, like? All I. All I want to hear is, like, them pulling the mask off of somebody in the closet. You meddling kids.

[Ash]

Or just, like, when they, like, run really quick. Like, I want to hear that. With the vision of Kathy being pulled away.

[Elena]

That for some reason, the vision of that just, like, sent me. No, that's. I could not stop laughing. That's good. And he goes and investigates the closet, and he found that just beyond it was a hidden room that didn't appear on any of the plans or blueprints that he'd seen when he'd went to the Amityville Historical Society.

[Ash]

I would be over the moon.

[Elena]

I'd be psyched.

[Ash]

You have a hidden room. How fucking fun is that?

[Elena]

I'm out here trying to convince John to add a hidden room onto our house.

[Ash]

I think you should.

[Elena]

Yeah, I want one.

[Ash]

And it could be a speaking. Easy.

[Elena]

It's my dream. That's my dream. I'm like, I'm an adult. Yes, I should have a hidden room.

[Ash]

Hello. I need more room for activities.

[Elena]

That's one of my goals in life, is to have a hidden room.

[Ash]

Do it, like, behind your bookshelf, right? Like, you pull a book and a.

[Elena]

Door opens, and then it's just like, a room. I don't even know what that room is for.

[Ash]

They do that shit on, like, weird, like, home shows all the time. I think you should do it.

[Elena]

I want to. So we're going to convince John of that.

[Ash]

Oh, yeah. I'll be over soon.

[Elena]

So I'm like, so what was the, like, reason for all. So, like, she got carried over to that closet. Was that, like, the demons or the ghosties just being like, guys, check it out. You have a cool hidden room back here.

[Ash]

Let me tell you, if I was a ghost living in that house, I'd be like, you haven't discovered this yet. Check this out.

[Elena]

Do something.

[Ash]

There's.

[Elena]

But it's like, do you.

[Ash]

So much you could do with this.

[Elena]

So much room for activities.

[Ash]

Precisely.

[Elena]

But do you. Do you carry the Wife over there in the middle of the night.

[Ash]

Now, I do have that idea, and I'm bringing it to the afterlife with me.

[Elena]

Yeah. Because, I mean, you are going to get somebody's attention that way.

[Ash]

I mean, it'd probably be, like, way more clunky than this experience sounds, because I'm not, like. I'm not like, a power lifter.

[Elena]

Yeah. You know, but maybe you will be.

[Ash]

Yeah, maybe I'll get that skill. I just feel like. Hop on. Piggyback on over to this hidden room.

[Elena]

Yeah, Here we go. I just want to show you something real quick.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

So that happened. But throughout their ordeal, the Lutzes kept quiet about what was happening in the house. They weren't telling people.

[Ash]

I wouldn't. I'd be on the national news.

[Elena]

That's what I'm saying. They didn't want the, you know, reputation of crazy people. You know, these weird people just moved into the neighborhood, and now they're creating a host. Shenanigans.

[Ash]

Got it.

[Elena]

But, like, to be honest, like, just letting you know, like, if you have weird happening in your house and we live in the same neighborhood and you want to tell me, like, tell me everything, tell me, because I'm not. You're going to be awesome.

[Ash]

Come and knock on door.

[Elena]

Tell me your witch. So a few weeks after moving in, they turned to the Amityville Historical Society in the hope that they could maybe provide them some information about the house or the lake, because they know about the Defeo thing, obviously. But they were like, you know what? Did anything else happen here? Which I was also like, do you need anything else? I don't know.

[Ash]

Like, I feel like that'll do it, in my opinion.

[Elena]

Yeah. So it took a few days, but eventually someone from the society got back to them, and what they said was that apparently the house, it seemed, sat on land once used by the Shinnecock tribe, and it was used as, quote, an enclosure for the sick, mad, and the dying. Oh. The society member noted that while they may have used it as, like, kind of like a holding place area, the Shinnecocks didn't use the area as a burial ground. They didn't use that area as a burial ground because, quote, they believed it to be infested with demons.

[Ash]

Fantastic.

[Elena]

Now, this is something. This would give me pause.

[Ash]

Is there. Do you know if that. That's been, like, backed up. If that's, like, the truth.

[Elena]

We'll get there. Okay.

[Ash]

So that's a no.

[Elena]

Good question. Good question. So, further legends. Because, of course, you're not Just going to get this one thing. There's lots of chit chat about this land, about the house. There's all kinds of stuff. So, further legends told of the Lutz's property once being home to John Ketchum, who was a former member of Salem, Massachusetts, who'd been forced out of the state for practicing witchcraft.

[Ash]

Well, shit.

[Elena]

Ketchum relocated to Long island and set up a residence allegedly just a few hundred feet from where the Lutzes now lived. And supposedly he continued practicing witchcraft and devil worship. Okay, so we all collectively can say that's bullshit, not real. Yeah, There is no. There's no. Nothing to say that this is the truth. He did have to leave Salem, Massachusetts, for a lot. There is, like, things about him going to Long island. But what we do know is that he was not doing devil worship and all that shit. And there's also, like. According to some of the accounts, John Ketchum was buried somewhere on the northeast corner of the Lutzes property. There's nothing to indicate that at all. Okay. The discovery of this information was obviously scary to the Lutzes, but it didn't really help them, nor didn't help them. It just kind of explained maybe everything that was going on, like, maybe the land itself is evil. Which would make more sense.

[Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Elena]

So the Lutz's terrifying ordeal finally came to a head on January 13, 1976. So this was not a long period of time.

[Ash]

No, not at all.

[Elena]

Because remember, they moved in towards the end of December. By this point, the attacks were constant. They ranged from disembodied voices to being pushed by unseen hands to finally, what we've all know, according to them, seeing blood oozing from the walls, hearing the sound of. And one of my favorites was they would hear the sounds of what they described as a full marching band in the living room.

[Ash]

Forgot about that one.

[Elena]

Marching band. It's a good one. And after discussing the matter at length, George and Kathy decided it would be in everyone's best interest if they got the out of the house. Maybe just for a while, maybe for good.

[Ash]

I love that they made arrangements. We're not sure.

[Elena]

Yeah, they were like, you know what? So they made arrangements to stay with Kathy's mother in near Babylon, New York. So they were like, you know what? We'll stay with Kathy's mom, see what we can do.

[Ash]

Oh, so my portal theory's wrong because her mom's alive.

[Elena]

Yeah, she is. So that morning, Kathy and George packed the kids and Harry into their van and prepared to leave. But George started to turn the key to the ignition and the van stalled.

[Ash]

Oh, no.

[Elena]

So he got out and opened the hood, hoping he could fix whatever was stopping them from leaving. And as he stood in front of the car, leaning under the hood, a big gust of wind forced the hood down and he barely managed to avoid being hit by it.

[Ash]

That's crazy.

[Elena]

That's crazy. So just moments later, thunder sounded in the near distance and the wind picked up to hurricane speed.

[Ash]

Shut the fuck up. No, it didn't.

[Elena]

Which forced them out of the car and back into the house just as the power went out. Wild series of events. So despite the 20 degree temperature and rain and sleet battering the house, inside it was nearly 90 degrees and felt as though it was getting hotter by the second.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

The storm ended a few hours later, but it was still. The power was off for the rest of the day. And at 6pm the next day, George went down to check the boiler, which was off. And when he came back upstairs, he saw what appeared to be a dark colored blob working its way towards the living room and towards Kathy and the children.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

And I was like, don't worry, that's just my sleep paralysis demon. He's fine.

[Ash]

He just hangs out.

[Elena]

Don't worry about it. But several hours later, it was clear that they wouldn't be able to leave the house until the next morning. So Kathy and George put the kids to bed and. Yeah, but they put the kids to bed in their bed.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

And they fell asleep on chairs in the bedroom. Okay, so they were all in the same bed.

[Ash]

I get that.

[Elena]

Now. A short time later, the heat in the house broke dramatically and the temperature just started to plummet. Now, somehow, even with all that was going on inside and outside the house, they all managed to fall asleep in that room.

[Ash]

No, incorrect.

[Elena]

At 3:15am same time he had woken up before, George was woken up again by the sound of a full marching band in the living room downstairs.

[Ash]

What's like, what do they think the marching band story is?

[Elena]

That's what I wonder. Because I'm like, where are they from?

[Ash]

Who does that go back to?

[Elena]

Yeah, like a marching band.

[Ash]

Yeah, I don't know about that.

[Elena]

But this time the noise was accompanied by a bunch of unintelligible voices. Like they couldn't tell what they were talking about, but just voices.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

It was a whole. It's like the Victrola party at the Smedeker house.

[Ash]

Bitch, I love a Victrola party.

[Elena]

I'm Victrola parties everywhere. That's but this one's like, worse. I guess so. And honestly, for the first time, things got a little worse here because George could hear the band or whatever it was, start to climb the stairs towards the bedroom.

[Ash]

He said, parties in here.

[Elena]

I said, oh, no.

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[Elena]

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[Ash]

Uh oh.

[Elena]

Because moments later, lightning started flashing in the bedroom. The bed frames started shaking.

[Ash]

Wait, wait.

[Elena]

By you.

[Ash]

You passed that like it was nothing. Lightning flashed inside the bedroom.

[Elena]

Well, lightning didn't hit in the bedroom. It, like, flashed in the. Like, the bedroom's, like, outside of the bedroom. Lightning's flash.

[Ash]

I thought you meant lightning was happening inside the room. And I said, you can't just graze past that.

[Elena]

You can't just walk past that. We gotta.

[Ash]

We gotta talk about that for a minute.

[Elena]

I wouldn't have been shocked if they said that happened.

[Ash]

Well, no, me.

[Elena]

By this point, everyone was awake, but George found that he couldn't move. He was having sleep paralysis and could feel what he thought were hooves stepping all over him.

[Ash]

Nay, nay, response.

[Elena]

Nay, nay, nay. He said they were walking across his body to get to his family.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

And soon the whole house was shaking like it was going to come down around them.

[Ash]

I mean, that probably would be good.

[Elena]

It honestly. See you later. So it took all the strength he had, but George finally managed to break his paralysis. Getting himself up, he grabbed his children and Kathy. They ran towards the door. But when they got to the landing, George heard Danny cry out that there was something in his room. And he told George, it's a monster. He doesn't have any face.

[Ash]

I'd say, that's fine, because we're leaving anyway.

[Elena]

I'd be like, that's cool. Leave him be now. When he looked up, George saw an enormous hooded figure dressed in white standing near the stairs.

[Ash]

Ew.

[Elena]

The thing pointed at them. And George knew this was it. He had to get his family out. This is the last second he had to get everyone out or they were gonna die.

[Ash]

What if he just wanted to have a dance off? And he was just like, your family? Let's see what you got.

[Elena]

You have a whole marching man behind you. I don't think so.

[Ash]

I think. I think he was trying to see what their steps team was all about.

[Elena]

Yeah. He was trying to see if they.

[Ash]

Had what it took to be America's next top dancer.

[Elena]

Yeah. He was like, step up. Let's family.

[Ash]

I think that's what was happening.

[Elena]

And you know what? That's why no one ever had a problem with this house again. Because they were, like, winners, and they just, like, left. They were like, all right, we're the winners. That's the thing. So he ran his family down the stairs, managed to rip open the door, push the kids out, then Kathy, Harry, and himself. And once they were all in the van, he jammed the key in the ignition and the engine turned over. He was able to start the ignition.

[Ash]

So they just wanted to have one last party.

[Elena]

Yeah, they just. They were like, stay another night. You didn't tell us you were leaving. So he flies out of there, tore down the driveway onto Ocean Avenue. Ocean Avenue.

[Ash]

I can't believe it's the first time we did that. I know.

[Elena]

I can't. That's really. That's sad.

[Ash]

That's my first concert.

[Elena]

Oh, I loved that song.

[Ash]

Yellow Card Forever.

[Elena]

So they were finally free of the house, whatever had happened in there, and they would never go back there again.

[Ash]

Yeah, I wouldn't either.

[Elena]

They wouldn't even go back there when they were investigating. They refused to.

[Ash]

Well, it's for the plot.

[Elena]

I was gonna say it's for the plot.

[Ash]

Like, I wouldn't go back either. So if that. If all of that actually did happen to me. But, yeah, where we know it didn't just add to the story. Like, and then we never stepped foot back in the scary house.

[Advertiser]

Never.

[Elena]

So just a few weeks after fleeing their home, George and Kathy were at a party.

[Ash]

I took a sip of my drink at the worst time. Because you almost just got a straight up spit take.

[Elena]

They were just at a party.

[Ash]

I'm sorry. And maybe this is just me. I don't even have kids yet. If my kids were almost demonically possessed and, like, taken away from me by demons, I don't think I'd be hitting up a party, like, weeks later and leaving them with anyone.

[Elena]

I don't think my kids would ever let me leave them alone.

[Ash]

And I wouldn't leave them, like, a.

[Elena]

Not alone. I mean, like, even with, like, a babysitter, like, they would. My kids would just want to be with me 24 7.

[Ash]

Yeah. And. And vice versa, because, like, I know.

[Elena]

Me as a kid. If that happened to me, I'd be like, you're never leaving my side. Mom and dad.

[Ash]

Literally never.

[Elena]

We're sleeping in the same room forever.

[Ash]

Like, the fuck are you celebrating?

[Elena]

I mean, getting, like, what's going on? Well, they were at a party in Amityville where they happened to meet William Weber, the lawyer of recently convicted killer Ronald Defeo.

[Ash]

Shut the fuck up.

[Elena]

Now, Weber was a local, so it is entirely possible that this was a purely coincidental meeting. Yeah, maybe it's strange that they met, but, like, it's. It's not that strange because, like, they did all in the same community.

[Ash]

And like we said, it is a smaller community.

[Elena]

Exactly. So Weber had always maintained that DeFeo was mentally ill, and he had been hearing command hallucinations in the weeks leading up to the murder of his family. So when George and Kathy mentioned where they had been living and the cause for them leaving that house, he was so interested because, remember, he's also in the middle of trying to get appeals for his clients. So this was a delicious little nugget of information for him. With DeFeo's conviction less than two months behind them, Weber had already started planning the appeals, of course. So he said, demonic infestation. What?

[Ash]

Tell me.

[Elena]

Paranormal attack.

[Ash]

Tell me at all, he said. Have a seat.

[Elena]

Exactly. So in mid February, Weber actually organized a press conference for himself and the Lutzes.

[Ash]

Shut up.

[Elena]

Yep. And during that press conference, he announced, based on certain facts related to. Relayed to us by George and Kathy Lutz and certain physical evidence brought to our attention, we are considering a motion for a new trial. So Weber didn't provide any details there. He just strongly indicated that the very strong force that had driven the Lutzes out of the house could have been to blame for motivating defeo to kill. Okay, that's up.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

It's like you're literally blaming a house for this guy just being a piece of shit.

[Ash]

Yeah. No, I don't. I don't like that. And I don't like that the Lutzes were like, yeah, let us help you do that.

[Elena]

Let's do this. Now. Contrary to what they would later claim, George and Kathy Lutz minimized the extent of their supposed paranormal experience, denying having seen human shapes, flying objects, and hearing any wailing noises or, you know, whatever. In fact, the most George would say was that they experienced psychic phenomenon that he could not describe that persuaded him and his family to suddenly move it out. Move out because of concern for our personal safety as a family.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

Now, on advice from their new legal counsel, William Weber, neither George nor Kathy would elaborate on the details, so they very much downplayed it for the press.

[Ash]

At first, they made it vague to. To make exactly more interested.

[Elena]

Now, the press conference gathered a lot of attention from the New York media and generated a lot of rumors about the Lutzes and their supposedly haunted house. Of course, this kind of helped them.

[Ash]

Well, it's like when somebody puts up, like, back in the day when people would put up a Facebook status, like, in the worst mood. Don't ask me why.

[Elena]

Yes.

[Ash]

And everybody.

[Elena]

Everyone's theorizing what it's about.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Elena]

Now, it. Obviously, it was not very often around town that a seemingly reasonable couple was holding a press conference to announce they'd experience psychic phenomenon to such an extent that they'd been forced out of their new home.

[Ash]

Wouldn't it be sick if that actually did happen more often?

[Elena]

I know I'd be so interested about that.

[Ash]

Yeah. You could, like, hold town meetings and.

[Elena]

Yeah. Now, among those who took interest in their story was a local News Channel, Channel 5, who wanted to do an investigative story on the house and the Lutzes experience. George agreed to allow the news channel to enter the house, but he said he and his family would not be joining the investigation.

[Ash]

I bet.

[Elena]

A few weeks later, the news team arranged to film the investigation at the Lutz's house. And it was going to be led by a notorious husband and wife psychic investigative team. Oh, Ed and Lorraine Warren.

[Ash]

I was gonna guess Ned and Maureen.

[Elena]

Ah, close. Yeah. Our friends Ed and Lorraine cut their fingers all up in here. This is one of the ones they're most well known for, actually. On the night of the investigation, the Warrens arrived at the house with a number of other individuals from their inner circle that included a lot of psychics that would help with the seance as they moved from room to room. Lorraine used her, you know, abilities to try to sense the presence of any evil entities that dwelled in the house. Which I was like, I don't really think we need Lorraine's abilities to see that.

[Ash]

I think we can look at history.

[Elena]

Yeah. Almost immediately, Lorraine stated that she felt the presence of a negative entity right from the bowels of the earth.

[Ash]

Wow.

[Elena]

And she said, this is the entity that was threatening you and likely convince Defeo to kill his family. Which I was like, yeah. Lorraine, shut the fuck up. Are you really sitting here trying to take away the fact that Ronald DeFeo Jr. Is a piece of shit who murdered his entire family? Because he's a piece of shit.

[Ash]

That's the thing. It's just like I. When they go to, like, the Snedeker house and they go to, like, these other houses, like, sure. It's kind of fun. I get it. Like, spooky.

[Elena]

Spooky.

[Ash]

You're just living your life. I love ghost hunting. I get it.

[Elena]

Absolutely.

[Ash]

When it involves a murder, like, directly.

[Elena]

A mass family annihilation, like, like multiple.

[Ash]

Children died in their own homes while they were maybe sleeping. Step away from that. Don't touch that.

[Elena]

And don't be sitting here trying to say that Ronald Defo Jr. Only did it because this demon from this house convinced him to, like, don't take the responsibility off of him.

[Ash]

It's also just kind of stupid. It's just stupid to claim that when the history is very clear of, like, they had a bad relationship. He and his family didn't have a great relationship.

[Elena]

And he was not completely in his right mind all the time.

[Ash]

No, exactly. Like on the. He had the murder. He wasn't.

[Elena]

Yeah. He had shown that he had. He could be violent. He had shown that he, you know, I mean, he sounds like he had grown up in an environment that kind of was. Helped with that violence.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And it's like we just to take the. I just don't like the taking responsibility off of him here.

[Ash]

I don't either.

[Elena]

And doing it to kind of further your own fucking agenda, which is exactly what she was doing.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And that's why people think that's why Ed and Lorraine have the black mark on them that they do. Because this kind of shit, like, you want to do fun, ghosty, ghosty shit. Sure, go right ahead. This kind of stuff just rubs me the wrong fucking way.

[Ash]

You just don't touch them.

[Elena]

They just. And it shows that they're scammers. Like, it shows that they will go to the ends of the earth to push their own shit.

[Ash]

And it's like, what are you trying to do? Like, get this guy off for murder?

[Elena]

That's like, get this guy. Problem is that this just happened, Lorraine. And they're not like, you're dealing with this now. Yeah. It's not like you're doing this now in like 2024 when the guy's dead and it's all over. Like, even that would annoy me because it would be taking responsibility off of him.

[Ash]

Yep.

[Elena]

But you're doing it within the first year that he has been convicted and that it happened and that he is in the appeals process where they are using the idea that he was mentally ill or insane or that there was some unseen force in the house making him do it.

[Ash]

It's just not cool.

[Elena]

No. So during one of the several seances conducted in the house that night, one of the psychics accompanying the Warrens claimed to, quote, feel personally threatened by a shadow being. And the entire team concluded a demonic spirit possessed the house. And they recommended an exorcism, of course.

[Ash]

And did they contact the archdiocese?

[Elena]

Of course they do. They always contact the archdiocese. Except they don't. So the couple also took a bunch of time lapse photos at various points around the house. And in one of the photos taken at the base of the stairs, it is a creepy photo. It's a very famous photo.

[Ash]

I don't even know if I've seen it.

[Elena]

There appears to be a child who can clearly be seen standing in the doorway leading to an adjacent room.

[Ash]

Hate that.

[Elena]

The Warrens claimed that this was evidence of paranormal activity and claimed the photo captured the ghost of John Defeo, who was the youngest one.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

Whose spirit, they believe was still trapped in the house.

[Ash]

Oh, fuck.

[Elena]

It's a scary photo. And that's.

[Ash]

That's horrifying.

[Elena]

I think it's a hard one to figure out what happened there. Like, what kid that is.

[Ash]

That is probably one of the scariest pictures I've ever seen in my life. I can feel the hair on my legs just standing up.

[Elena]

Yeah, that one's definitely a scary one.

[Ash]

I'm like, I hope I closed out of that because I don't want to open my phone and have that be there.

[Elena]

I know, right?

[Ash]

Fuck that.

[Elena]

I do think, though, that it has been debunked. That photo.

[Ash]

It's very clear.

[Elena]

I think it was one of the Warren's team. They figured out. I think it might have been, like, his name is, like, Paul something, I think is what they think it was. Either way, it's a pretty scary photo. Just as like, I could see why people were fooled for a long time. I probably would have been.

[Ash]

I just was.

[Elena]

So. See, there you go. That's. I mean, that's the. That's the wild thing about the Warrens is they. They definitely. They're able to get you at first, and then you're like, ah, you. So while the Warrens have been most the. Like the biggest names associated with the Amityville haunting. And they are very much associated with it. Like, it's like hand in hand. It's like them in the conjuring kind of thing. They were merely one of several paranormal investigators who were attracted to the house by that press conference. Like, they weren't the only ones. Their involvement in the case kind of ends when that investigation with Channel 5 ended. Like, they didn't really stick around longer.

[Ash]

Oh, okay.

[Elena]

They obviously discussed the incident in the story many, many more times in their career. Like, they did use it as, like, the pinpoint kind of, like, goalpost thing. Yeah. But they kind of. They peaced out after that Channel 5 investigation. Like, they got their fake photo and they were like, all right, bye.

[Ash]

That's interesting.

[Elena]

So the Warrens investigation was followed by another investigation by Hans Holzer.

[Ash]

I've heard of Hans.

[Elena]

Hans Holzer. I think when we were with Mikey and Dave watching A Haunting. That show, which we had so much fun watching.

[Ash]

So much fun.

[Elena]

Hilarious. Hans Holzer was in a couple of.

[Ash]

The Things, and I said, I think I believe everything this man has to.

[Elena]

Say because his name is Hans Holzer.

[Ash]

He just makes sense.

[Elena]

He's a supposedly skeptical paranormal investigator who, unlike the Warrens, was guided by a more scientific method of inquiry, which I can appreciate. Accompanied by nominally famous psychic Ethel Johnson Myers. I don't know if you've heard that name.

[Ash]

I have.

[Elena]

Holzer suggested that the Lutz's house had been built on an ancient Shinnecock Indian burial ground. That's the quote.

[Ash]

Sure.

[Elena]

And was haunted by the angry spirit of Chief Rolling Thunder.

[Ash]

I feel like that borders on racism when they go the burial ground route.

[Elena]

Yeah. I think it's just that they don't have proof of that. There's also. They don't have proof of that at all. And they also were told by the Historical Society that, like, allegedly that these. The indigenous people would not bury their dead on that ground because it was thought of as, like, cursed.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

So they were told that it wasn't, and now this guy's saying it was. Yeah.

[Ash]

I take it back when I said I believe everything Hans has to say.

[Elena]

Yeah. So he also examined many of the photographs from the original DeFeo crime scene, including several photos of the bullet holes in the walls. And he said he saw mysterious halos appear around the bullets.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

You're like, no, Hans. From William Weber's perspective, the Lutz's story was one that was worthy of being told, of course.

[Ash]

Oh, yeah.

[Elena]

You know, he just wants to get it out, you know. No other reason at all. No, it's really important.

[Ash]

Just, you know, he just was entertained by it. It has nothing to do with his ongoing court case.

[Elena]

No, of course not.

[Ash]

Why would you even think that? Guys.

[Elena]

So in March 1976, less than a month after the press conference, he presented the Lutzes with a book contract with publisher Morrison Burton.

[Ash]

Well, shit.

[Elena]

Under the terms of the contract, Weber, Mars and Burton, and George and Kathy lutz would receive 12% shares of the profits, while Paul Hoffman, the book's proposed author, would receive 40%. 12%, since.

[Ash]

Kind of sucks.

[Elena]

That percentage sucks.

[Ash]

So I would not do that for 12%.

[Elena]

Yeah. So Kathy and George were like, well, you know what? He's been supportive of us, so let's just go with it. So they signed the contract and let's go.

[Ash]

Damn. You didn't even negotiate a better percentage?

[Elena]

No. Now, just a few weeks after signing the contract with William Weber, George and Kathy met Tam Mossman, who was an editor with Prentice Hall Publishing.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

They told Mossman about the deal with Weber, and he was like, yeah, he might be offering you free legal advice, but he also offered you a really bad book deal.

[Ash]

Okay. I'm like, is somebody around them that gives a shit? Yeah.

[Elena]

So since the contract technically hadn't been finalized, I guess they hadn't signed it. I shouldn't have said that they agreed to the contract. They hadn't signed it. There was still time to back out of the deal.

[Ash]

No.

[Elena]

John Hanks Mossman suggested that they pursue their own author and sell the story on their terms. So a few days later, he introduced them to his friend, author Jay Anson, who I mentioned before.

[Ash]

It sounds like they just didn't realize how lucrative this could be. And when they did, they were like.

[Elena]

Yeah, that's literally what happened.

[Ash]

Yeah.

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[Ash]

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[Elena]

So Jay Anson at the time was working on a documentary about the making of the 1973 horror film the Exorcist. Hey, unlike the deal with Weber, which, you know, gave a lot of individuals a lot of money for doing nothing.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Anson suggested that he work with the Lutzes to tell their story for an even split of the profits.

[Ash]

That's a much better book deal.

[Elena]

Much better deal. So days later, the Lutzes ended their contract with Weber, their proposed one, and eventually signed a new contract with Anson. By then, however, Weber and Hoffman had signed contracts with Good Housekeeping and New York Sunday News for articles about the Lutz's experience in the house. One appearing in July 1976. The other in July 1977. As a result, the Lutzes ended up suing Weber and Hoffman in civil court for invasion of privacy, seeking $4.5 million in damages.

[Ash]

You're gonna have to show me those damages. 4.5 million. You weren't even worth that before.

[Elena]

Are the damages in the room with us? That's the.

[Ash]

That's what the judge said.

[Elena]

The judge said, hello, can you point to the damages now? Hoffman and Weber. Well, and Hoffman and Weber countersued, alleging breach of contract and fraud.

[Ash]

So maybe they did sign, actually.

[Elena]

And they requested $2 million in damages.

[Ash]

Which they probably could have accounted for.

[Elena]

Exactly. So eventually the court did dismiss George and Kathy Lutz's suit against Weber and Hoffman. But by then, Anson's book had been published and had quickly become very, very successful. The book would actually go on to sell more than 10 million copies worldwide.

[Ash]

Fucking egg.

[Elena]

And it spawned the hit adaptation in film, the 1979Amityville Horror.

[Ash]

You know, I've never seen it.

[Elena]

It's wild. And it had seven direct sequels as well as dozens of unofficial films, which. Just ask Caleb, our boy Caleb is currently just bushwhacking his way through.

[Ash]

He's chest deep in Amityville sequels.

[Elena]

He's always. And he's happy about it.

[Ash]

He embarked on a journey that he didn't know all about.

[Elena]

You know, Caleb is a completionist. He does not like to half ass things. So once he starts something, he's gonna finish it.

[Ash]

He's a balls to the wall kind of guy.

[Elena]

So if you. Yeah, he's really going for it. Because as soon. You can now use the Amityville name to like, it's now open to you. So that's why people use it to sell movies.

[Ash]

Yeah, it's like. Because you can't copyright a town name or something like that.

[Elena]

Yeah, it's like, it's. You can just. You can use it. So it's like people use it. The publication of Anson's book and all the films were a financial boon for the Lutz family, of course. But with the success and attention came a little bit of scrutiny, I would say that would eventually uncover some inconsistencies and cracks in the story. So the COVID of Jay Anson's book, the Amityville Horror, that's what it's like. His is the original. Includes quite a bold subtitle, A True Story. So this is implying that this is a. A nonfiction book.

[Ash]

That's wild.

[Elena]

In fact, I mean, it was that claim that really was the Success and the legacy of the books and films for Amityville, of course, creating a myth that Even today, nearly 50 years later, a lot of people believe is a very totally true story. But it's also understood that when an author adapts a supposedly true story for a book or a movie, there will be elements woven in for, you know, the sake of readability and continuity. You know, like fictional elements, some artistic license.

[Ash]

That's why it always says, like, based on a true story.

[Elena]

Exactly. That's what it needs to say. But theirs just said a true story.

[Ash]

Yeah, you gotta say based.

[Elena]

Yeah. The problem with Anson's book, however, was that it included so many unbelievable and outrageous claims that it was along before. A lot of people wanted to see the evidence and support, you know, they were like, show me what. What makes this a completely true story? Because I don't know. Now, the Amityville Horror was released in mid September of 1977. And within a few months, journalists and skeptics around the world started flooding Anson's publisher, Prentice Hall Incorporated, with requests ranging from the whereabouts of the Lutzes or Ralph Pecoraro, the Reverend, to the existence of evidence directly contradicting the claims made by the book. They were like, we want it all in the. In an article for Newsday published in November that year, investigative journalists took matters into their own hands when representatives from Prentice hall refused to respond to requests for any of this or any questions.

[Ash]

Uh, oh.

[Elena]

Among the discoveries that were made were the local Catholic diocese, quote, denied that psychic incidents and conversations, including clerical officials cited in the book, ever took place.

[Ash]

So the Catholic Church is like, leave us the fuck out of your hauntings.

[Elena]

The Catholic Church is like, get the Warrens away from. Get our. Get our name out of your dirty mouth.

[Ash]

They're doing, like. They're putting the Warrens in the freezer. You know what? We will engage in witchcraft.

[Elena]

Stop. We're gonna engage in the dark arts here just to get you to shut the fuck up about us.

[Ash]

I bind you, Warrens.

[Elena]

They also found out that neighbors and former and current residents of the house denied multiple key points of the story, including the Amityville Historical Society denying that there was any evidence of the land having been used by the Shinnecock tribe, whose ancestral land was quite a bit further east.

[Ash]

That's so fucked up.

[Elena]

Like, yikes. That you guys were like, let's throw some indigenous shit in there, because that's spooky. Like, whoa. You didn't think someone was gonna check up on that?

[Ash]

That makes you look like such a Fucking douchebag.

[Elena]

And to use the Amityville Historical Society's name, too. They're going to be like, no. Like, you don't think they're going to come forward and be like, no, fucker. That's our literal job.

[Ash]

That's shitty to do.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Especially to, like, indigenous communities.

[Elena]

And what's funnier, because, remember, they claimed that while they were in the house, they went to the Historical Society and joined them to find out what was going on.

[Ash]

Or. No.

[Elena]

A representative from the Historical Society confirmed that the Lutzes did join the Historical Society, but not until January 25, 1976, was. Which was a few weeks after they fled the house, and a few weeks after was when they met William Weber and started discussing all of this shit. So I'm sure there was discussion of, why don't you join the Historical Society and find out some shit?

[Ash]

Ew. And then if you don't find out what you want, just lie about it.

[Elena]

Just make it up.

[Ash]

That's because.

[Elena]

You know what? Yeah.

[Ash]

Also, like, I think you just said you didn't think anyone was going to check up on that.

[Elena]

That's the thing. Like, come on.

[Ash]

That always happens with people who lie, though. You're like, you didn't think anyone was going to look into that.

[Elena]

And that, like, the. The Society that you literally mention by name isn't going to be like, no.

[Ash]

Yeah. Why wouldn't you just say, like, according to unnamed sources, if you're going to lie, do it.

[Elena]

But you named a society.

[Ash]

Yikes.

[Elena]

Like, damn. Now, at least two paranormal investigation groups declined to investigate the house at the Lutz's request, quote, because of commercial promotion or lack of observable data. So they were like, no, it was very clear that they wanted to make this a thing so we wouldn't investigate. Which I was like, good integrity on that.

[Ash]

I love an integrity.

[Elena]

I do, too. I love an integrity.

[Ash]

That's what I look for.

[Elena]

Now, the new owners of the home, Barbara and James Cromerdi. I hope I said their name right. Also spoke out, holding their own press conference to defend the reputation of their home and the memory of the DeFeo family.

[Ash]

Nice.

[Elena]

Barbara told the group at the press conference the house isn't haunted. It's beautiful and we love it. The Cromerdis were particularly critical of Anson's book and the Lutzes, telling reporters that their claims have drawn thousands of curious onlookers to drive by the house and even come onto the property.

[Ash]

That's really fucked up. Don't go onto somebody else's property.

[Elena]

No. And Barbara said it was ridiculous and tragic for the surviving members of the DeFeo family and for the town.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

They were made into ghouls.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

And it's true. Now, Jay Anson, the author, defended the book in the assertion that it was a true story. He said, the way I approached the story, I left myself out of it. I did it as a reporter. So that by the end of the book, you believe or you don't believe. These are the facts. This is what happened to the family. This is what happened to the priests. Now, the problem with Anson and the Lutz's position there, that he just said that readers could make up their own minds about what happened, that strongly suggests that he was not working with facts. Yeah. But instead he was working with subjective experiences that are, huh. Notoriously difficult to prove or disprove.

[Ash]

Which is why you cannot put a true story on the COVID If it.

[Elena]

Was a true story, you say, this is truth.

[Ash]

Yeah, I'm just reporting facts, and I.

[Elena]

Can back it all up. But instead, he's saying, you either believe it or you don't. Oof. Okay, I don't believe it or, okay, I don't know. In fact, as Newsday pointed out, quote, differences between the Lutz version of events and ascertainable facts crop up in the book from start to finish. When Newsday reporters spoke to the Lutz's neighbors on Ocean Avenue, all of them denied noticing anything unusual happening in the house. One neighbor said, if they did have problems, you'd think they would have come over and make some mention to the neighbors. In fact, James Mullally, who purchased the Lutz's former home after they moved to Amityville, visited the family at the new house a few weeks after they had moved in, by which time the book claimed they were under very heavy supernatural attack at this point. Yeah, but James Mullally recalled that George and Kathy happily gave them him a tour of their new house. At no time did they say anything. At no time did anything seem out of the ordinary. And likewise, when the Cromerdi family moved in a few months after the Lutzes fled, they found nothing out of the ordinary. And there was no signs that the house had sustained any damage on the inside. Which, remember, they're claiming that doors blew off hinges, it was crumbling around, going crazy. Yeah. Well, it would have been impossible to verify the Lutz's story of their experience since, you know, you can't verify someone's personal experience.

[Ash]

No.

[Elena]

There were a large number of people supposedly consulted during their stay in the house who could be, and often were followed up with by reporters. In one of the book's most notorious moments, George Lutz describes seeing his daughter's imaginary friend Jody through a window. And when he went outside to investigate, he said he found a trail of hoof tracks left in the snow. Now, according to George, he called the police, and he said Sergeant Pat Camaroto was dispatched to the house. Sergeant Camaroto, on the other hand, told the reporter that story was, quote, absolutely false. I was never on the property from the time of the DeFeo murder investigation until after the Lutzes left.

[Ash]

You can't lie about the police. They have laws. You can't.

[Elena]

They have logs, like a low. Like you named some poor guy in this. Like, what the.

[Ash]

And an officer of the law.

[Elena]

Of the law. Kidding. Also, the weather report indicated there was no snow on the ground when George claimed to have found the tracks in the snow. Nor had there been any snow on the ground the week prior.

[Ash]

George.

[Elena]

George, honey, you gotta look at weather reports. My guy. Oof.

[Ash]

Almost. Almost happier than he didn't, though.

[Elena]

Like, damn.

[Ash]

Big old yikes.

[Elena]

In another of the novel's most memorable moments, Reverend Pecoraro hears that disembodied voice tell him to get out while he's blessing the house. In fact, Pecoraro's involvement in the story was one of the aspects that lent the story a lot of credibility. That he's a priest, he's coming and saying this is happening. Yet when he was called to testify in the Lutz's suit against Webber, Pecoraro stated, quote, his only contact relating to this case was a telephone call from the Lutzes regarding their psychic experiences.

[Ash]

What?

[Elena]

Now, contrary to their repeated claims that those and those made in the Amityville horror, Reverend Pecoraro never went to bless the Lutz's house.

[Ash]

I feel duped.

[Elena]

According to Pecoraro, he referred George Lutz to The local parish, St. Martin of Tours, and suggested they speak with the priests there. But he said, but, quote, the Lutzes neither called nor ever attended mass.

[Ash]

Well, yeah, because, remember, they weren't fucking religious.

[Elena]

Oh, and the claim that the priest. This is the priest that helped them when they were getting married. Debunked. They were married July 4, 1975. And during questioning, George answered later that they met the priest July 14, 1975, and Kathy said they met him July 30, 1975, over the phone.

[Ash]

Y'all don't even remember your wedding date.

[Elena]

And then he said, no, no, I've only had contact with them over the phone.

[Ash]

What?

[Elena]

Yeah, Guys. So they couldn't even get the date right.

[Ash]

Do you think that because, like, I mean, they left the house. Like, do you think they. They got in over their heads?

[Elena]

I know exactly what happened here, and I'll tell you. Okay, so the most damning discovery, I would say, made during this time came from one of the book's original architects, William Weber, who told People magazine in 1979, I know this book is a hoax. We created this story over many bottles of wine that George Lutz was drinking. We were creating something that the public wanted to hear.

[Ash]

Oh, no.

[Elena]

So I'd say that he said we.

[Ash]

Were creating something that the public wanted to hear. And allegedly, it could have helped my client.

[Elena]

Exactly. According to Weber, the Lutzes created the story in an effort to get out of deep financial trouble because they bought.

[Ash]

A house that was like, double their fucking price range.

[Elena]

Because the house was a bargain at $80,000. But.

[Ash]

It was.

[Elena]

But like you said, it was almost twice the average home price at the time and twice what the Lights Lutzes could afford.

[Ash]

Ma always says a sale is not a sale if you can't afford it.

[Elena]

Exactly. And their mortgage wasn't their only expense. They also owned a car, a motorcycle, and two boats. Along with the typical expenses. I'm saying your boats are expensive.

[Ash]

Oh, yeah.

[Elena]

Along with the typical expenses that come from raising three children.

[Ash]

That's the other thing. You have three hooligans running around.

[Elena]

Yeah, three little hooligans. They're expensive. Expensive.

[Ash]

Super expensive.

[Elena]

And so in the past, two boats.

[Ash]

I'm sorry, what?

[Elena]

Hell, no. In simplest terms, the Lutzes were living a lifestyle well beyond their means.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Elena]

And it didn't take long to realize they couldn't afford all of it and the book. That's why it's so strange that they decided to take this house on when they knew they couldn't afford that mortgage.

[Ash]

So I think they went into this knowing what they could do.

[Elena]

I wonder, because once they found out it was the DeFeo House, I wonder if they said, well, we could turn this into something.

[Ash]

I think they knew it was the Defeo house.

[Elena]

I don't know.

[Ash]

But like you said, they lived in New York.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

It's strange that they knew it was national news. It wasn't just like a little thing that happened in New York.

[Elena]

Yeah. Now, the book deal with Anson and the movie adaptation that followed were very lucrative, obviously, but the Lutzes didn't plan on things going badly between them. And their original partners or the possibility that they were going to be sued.

[Ash]

That's why you don't send people over in con contracts.

[Elena]

Exactly. Contracts are. Shouldn't be fucked around with. So in fact, it was Weber's frustration and animosity that led him to expose the story in the first place. Because they him over. And he continued to do so in the years that followed.

[Ash]

And I'm sorry.

[Elena]

Isn'T it just funny? Yeah, like they fucked him over in a contract and he was like, okay.

[Ash]

He said, hold my beer.

[Elena]

He said, I'll buy my time and then I'm going to ruin your whole life. In 1988, in fact. So he's still going good. This was in 1970 something. He's.

[Ash]

He's in 1988 still hold a grudge. Hold a fucking.

[Elena]

Honestly.

[Ash]

It's like that lady on TikTok.

[Elena]

Oh, I feel that deep in my bones know that I will be that person who has a grudgery in the afterlife and I will take on other people's grudges for fun.

[Ash]

I'm working the counter.

[Elena]

I'm petty as fuck.

[Ash]

I got. We got this together. You're building a grudgery.

[Elena]

I would be William Weber in this scenario. Me too. 1988, a decade later, I'm still fucking you over.

[Ash]

I got something to say.

[Elena]

He said, I'll burn it to the ground.

[Ash]

Burn it all.

[Elena]

So in 1988, like years later, he appears on the show Occurrence Affair where he elaborates. He said, we took the real life incidents and transposed them. In other words, it was a hoax. He's still. I love it. 1980. He's like, did I. Did I say it loud enough for the people in the back?

[Ash]

It wasn't real.

[Elena]

It was a hoax. So the Amityville hoax would be the subject of many court cases in the decades since its publication, most having to do with money, but none as surprising as Ronald DeFeo's 1992 attempt to use the claims as the basis for a petition for a new trial. Which is the shitty part of what came out of this.

[Ash]

I can't.

[Elena]

Luckily it didn't work because by that time, DeFeo had served 15 years of his life sentence. But he believed the exposure of the Amityville hoax entitled him to a new criminal trial. He said, William Weber gave me no choice. He told me I had to do this. He told me there would be a lot of money from book rights in a movie. He would have me out in a couple years and I would come into all that money the Whole thing was a con, except for the crime.

[Ash]

I mean. Yeah.

[Elena]

So that's the. We laugh about William Weber being, like, petty as fuck about the Lutzes, but he was really shitty when it came to the DeFeo case because he was trying to get him out on that.

[Ash]

Yeah. Which is not cool.

[Elena]

Which. Fuck that. So the legacy of the Lutzes and the Amityville Horror, and like I said in the first episode with the defeos, it didn't work.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Get his new shit. But the legacy of the Lutzes and the Amityville Horror has persisted for nearly 50 years, and it has led to countless debates about fact, fiction, what is real, what isn't, what gets. What tends to get lost in all of that, though, is the story about Amityville. The town itself. Like, it's kind of taken on a life of its own.

[Ash]

The myth of Amityville, big time.

[Elena]

And it. Like we said, it's a. It's a seaside town. It's a small place. It's a nice place, and it's really disrupted life for the residents there.

[Ash]

And.

[Elena]

Because people can't tell homeowners, too. Absolutely. While Anson the Lutzes and Ed and Lorraine Warren made millions from their supposedly quote, unquote, true story, people like Barbara and James Cromarty, who owned the house and the residents of Amityville had to contend with thousands of people in paranormal enthusiasts descending on their town every year.

[Ash]

Yeah, that's annoying.

[Elena]

It's kind of like Salem during Halloween.

[Ash]

I was just.

[Elena]

You know what I mean? People forget that people live there and that that's their home. And it's.

[Ash]

I think it would be one thing if people, you know, just, like, went passed by. Like, that would be something. People act a fool around, like Halloween, and they act a fool around paranormal stuff. It's like, go, if you want to go, and be respectful, like, to Salem, obviously. But, like, leave people's personal properties alone.

[Elena]

Yeah, that's the thing. Like, you just got to be. You got to be cool about it, man.

[Ash]

You want to drive past the house. I get that. I probably want to.

[Elena]

Don't be all, like, drive by.

[Ash]

Look at it. Move on.

[Elena]

Yeah. Like. But don't be weird. Don't. Don't disrupt people's lives.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

You know, it's not cool. Like, I don't know when this episode comes out because I never know where we are in space and time.

[Ash]

But sometime in October.

[Elena]

It's in October. So if you're going to Salem this month or anytime, really, because remember, people Live there, but especially during the Halloween months when it's, like, really crazy there. Just. That's cool. People don't mind. I. I don't live there, but, like, people don't mind. Just be. Be respectful to people who live there.

[Ash]

Yeah, it's.

[Elena]

It's a really cool place. It's a really historical place. It's got a lot of heavy history, and people live their year round and have their kids there, they have families there. So just like, be cool.

[Ash]

Just don't act a fool. Don't be all.

[Elena]

So that they will. Don't be all uncool, as you know, Luann says, Countess. And because you want to be able to go there every year, and if it continues the way it has been, they're gonna be like, y'all.

[Ash]

Yeah, they're gonna shut that down.

[Elena]

I wouldn't blame them.

[Ash]

I wouldn't either.

[Elena]

So last summer, apparently, and this was in. In 1977, Barbara told reporters, Barbara Craddy, the owner of the house, said last summer, 5,000 people tromped through here. They left trash everywhere and even had picnics on the neighbor's lawns, which, if you're that kind of person, fuck you. Like, you get it together.

[Ash]

What are you doing having a picnic on someone's fucking lawn?

[Elena]

Also, if you're one of these kind of people, which you're not, if you're listening to the show, because none of our listeners are. Are stupid. No, you're all great, but if you know someone that's like that, you got to tell them to go to BJ's and get themselves the family pack of fucking shame. Because you have no.

[Ash]

What you were going to tell these people to buy.

[Elena]

You have no shame. If you are, and you need some. Like, you need a healthy amount of human shame. Buy shame and sick on someone's lawn and have a picnic like that, you should. When you don't have shame to that degree, you're bordering on not being a human, and you need to go fix that.

[Ash]

If you can't call your mom or, like, somebody you love and tell them what you did that day, don't do that.

[Elena]

Yeah, don't do that thing. Good call. Now, despite all the claims of supernatural assaults and documentation of hoaxes and an endless parade of tourists, the house at 112 Ocean Avenue still stands. Anna. It's as marketable as ever. Some of the subsequent owners went as far as to renovate removing the. You know, they finally removed the home's iconic Dutch windows to make it less recognizable to tourists. Yeah, because they did those. They became the iconic windows. They looked like eyes.

[Ash]

They were spooky.

[Elena]

Yeah. And other owners embraced the history and celebrated its place in horror history. Like, you know, you never know who you're gonna get living there. It's kind of like the. The house on Elm street. The house from Nightmare on Elm Street. That house has had several owners over the years. The newest owner does not embrace its place in York.

[Ash]

Please fuck off.

[Elena]

Which. That's a place. There's a difference between a mass murder happening in a place, a real mass murder, and a real hoax happening in one place. I feel like that's a place where it's just. They got a different vibe. But if you're buying the Elm street house, you know what you're buying.

[Ash]

It's true.

[Elena]

You're buying the house from Nightmare at Elm Street.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Come on. Come on. You gotta know. You gotta know.

[Ash]

Again, if people are just driving by, cool people taking, like, a quick pick.

[Elena]

I get it. Yeah.

[Ash]

People on your lawn. Kick them off.

[Elena]

No, Nobody should be going on your property. That's not. No matter what you're doing.

[Ash]

But if they're near your property, like, come on, you.

[Elena]

But you gotta embrace that one a little bit. Not on property. I'm saying off property, but in j. But that's the thing. Like with. With all these kind of houses and places, you're going to get people who embrace the kookiness and the wildness and the horror stuff. You're going to get some people who aren't as comfortable with it. And you need to respect. Regardless.

[Ash]

People's boundaries are important.

[Elena]

Yeah. Now, in January 2023, the former DeFeo murder house sold for $1.5 million, which was a 1,775% increase from what George and Kathy left. Lots paid in 1977.

[Ash]

Well, pretty good increase.

[Elena]

I don't know how the newest owners feel about it. So I think the safest thing is to assume they do not like the attention of that house and to leave them be and let them live.

[Ash]

I like that. I like that.

[Elena]

But everybody so far who has lived in that house has claimed that that house is not haunted in the way that it has been portrayed.

[Ash]

And it's been 50 years, so, like 50 plus. So maybe I think we're going on 60.

[Elena]

Maybe people have experienced little things here and there. I wouldn't be shocked by any means, but they have not, you know, heard marching bands and been carried off into closets and such.

[Ash]

I want to know whose idea it was to add the marching band because that's just.

[Elena]

That's. That's. That's overzealous.

[Ash]

It is. And the big figure pointing. That's my favorite visual that I created for myself.

[Elena]

Yeah. Just.

[Ash]

I just picture him, like pointing and then when they didn't, like, start dancing.

[Advertiser]

Like, he just gets on the ground.

[Ash]

And starts doing like a coffee grinder move.

[Elena]

Yeah. He's like, oh, okay, it's my turn then.

[Ash]

Okay, let me show you how it's skipping.

[Elena]

Your turn. Fine.

[Advertiser]

This is how we do it on the other side.

[Elena]

He's like, all right, it's gonna cost you in judging, but let's go.

[Ash]

Oh, man.

[Elena]

So that is the story of the Amityville hoax.

[Ash]

What a tale.

[Elena]

What a tale.

[Ash]

It's when you really look at it, like overarching view. It is really shitty what they did.

[Elena]

It's very shitty.

[Ash]

It's like super shitty.

[Elena]

And they did it for their own personal gain, which is very shitty.

[Ash]

Yeah. And when you think about, like, I forget who said it, but somebody was like, they're still like Defeo family members and you turn them into ghouls, like, that's.

[Elena]

They banked off of the Defeo tragedy, which is a horrific trap. I mean, we covered it in the first episode how bad that was. That was a horrific, horrific family annihilation and still has unanswered pieces of that. Like, there's so much mystery surrounding that in and of itself. They banked on that. And they also banked on a fictional burial ground.

[Ash]

Yeah. Which is so fucked up. I hate that aspect.

[Elena]

Yeah. And it's like, I don't. And then they threw like John Ketchum into there.

[Ash]

Yeah, they. They really just ran in so many different directions.

[Elena]

Like, damn, you just dipped your fingers in the Salem witch trials too. Like, you really grabbed. It's like the trifecta of I up for real. Are you Indigenous burial ground, actual family annihilation. And the Salem witch Trials. You just grabbed all three and threw them in the story.

[Ash]

Just tragedies everywhere.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Oof. So, yeah, that's wild.

[Elena]

It is a wild tale, but it's.

[Ash]

Spooky season, so we got more crazy ass tales coming your way.

[Elena]

We do. And I hope you're enjoying them and being horrified by them.

[Ash]

Yeah. I have like a murder mansion next. I think there's a poltergeist coming down the pike.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah, we got it all.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And then, guys, hang real tight because following all of this, the next couple episodes, you're getting Jerry Brudos finish Killer.

[Ash]

Oh, no.

[Elena]

So that one's Gonna take us right back into the depths of hell.

[Ash]

It's just gonna make you feel real weird about putting your shoes on in the morning.

[Elena]

It sure will.

[Ash]

I hate it.

[Elena]

Look him up, everybody, if you don't know who he is. And anticipate that.

[Ash]

Yeah. We also have some special guests that are gonna be upcoming. We're really excited about that. We have a lot of cool stuff coming. The pike.

[Elena]

We do. I'm excited.

[Ash]

And before spooky season commences, we're doing something a little extra fun for the listener tale.

[Elena]

Yes.

[Ash]

But stay tuned for that because we. We got some stuff in the works.

[Elena]

Because that one falls on Halloween, right?

[Ash]

It falls.

[Elena]

Yeah, that one falls on Halloween. So who knows? You might see.

[Ash]

Well, we have up our sleeve.

[Elena]

Who knows?

[Ash]

I'm so excited.

[Elena]

I'm very excited.

[Ash]

I can't wait. So, yeah, with all that being said, we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird, but not so weird that you take an entire family's tragedy and like so many other tragedies throughout history and turn them into a book for your own personal gain. I just think that's a little bit shitty.

[Elena]

Yeah, it's not cool.

[Ash]

Not just a line like if you experience something haunted go off, go crazy. That's exciting. But if you're gonna lie about it, you're just a squid.

[Elena]

It's true. No one likes a squid.

[Ash]

No. Bye. Bye.

[Advertiser]

If you like morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey.

[D]

In a quiet suburb, a community is shattered by the death of a beloved wife and mother. But this tragic loss of life quickly turns into something even darker. Her husband had tried to hire a hitman on the dark web to kill her. And she wasn't the only target. Because buried in the depths of the Internet is the Kill List. A cache of chilling documents containing names, photos, addresses and specific instructions for people's murders. This podcast is the true story of how I ended up in a race against time to warn those who lives were in danger. And it turns out convincing a total stranger someone wants them dead is not easy. Follow Kill List on the Wandri app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Kill List and more. Exhibit C. True crime shows like Morbid early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus. Check out exhibit C in the Wondery app. For all your true crime listening.